Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Sarah Nicole Landry | She Posted Her Real Body… And It Changed Everything!

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

#934. Sarah Nicole Landry (The Birds Papaya) joins Kaitlyn for a deeply honest conversation about the photo that went viral, the reality behind body acceptance, and why she’s choosing to keep more of her life private these days.They also get into PMDD, what your 40s actually feel like, and a surprisingly emotional moment from walking in Sports Illustrated — when the crowd’s reaction was something she never expected.Plus, they talk emotional comfort movies (Kaitlyn’s makes sense… Sarah’s is a little questionable, but hey we’ll let you decide 😉), and the history these two go way back on! Raw, real, and a feel-good chat you’ll want to be a part of! Enjoy! If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these AMAZING deals!Better Help: When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at BETTERHELP.com/VINE.Knix: Head to KNIX.com code VINE15 to grab yourself the Uplift bra. Don’t forget to use code VINE15 for 15% off your order!Nutrafol: For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code VINE.Wayfair: Head to Wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Way Day. Wayfair. Every style. Every home.Quince: Go to QUINCE.com/vine for free shipping and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too!Apartments.com: The place to find a place!EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: (6:31) The stretch mark photo that went viral — and how it completely changed her life(21:05) How she landed Sports Illustrated… and the moment that brought her to tears(35:56) Why she’s no longer sharing everything online — and what changed(53:05) If someone you’re dating made a shrine about you… is that flattering or an immediate ick?(1:07:15) Emotional support movies — Kaitlyn’s makes sense, Sarah’s might raise questionsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode of Off the Vine is brought to you by BetterHelp. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterH-E-L-P.com slash Vine. Nix, head to Nix-N-I-X.com and use code Vine 15 to grab yourself the uplift bra and don't forget to use code Vine 15 for 15% off your order. NutraFull for a limited time, NutraFle is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit NutraFel.com and enter promo code Vine. head to wayfar.com April 25th through the 27th to shop wayday that's w a y f a ir

com wayfair.com wayfair every style every home quince go to q u i ncee dot com slash vine for free shipping and 365 day returns now available in canada too and apartments dot com the place to find a place you're listening to off the vine with kately bristow hey vinos real quick if you are listening right now, which obviously you are or you wouldn't be hearing this. Can you hit the subscribe or follow button on whatever platform you're on? Please, that one simple thing helps more than you even realize it allows me to keep growing on this podcast and making these episodes the best they can possibly be obviously for you. That's the only favorite I'm going to ever ask. Okay, it truly means the world to me. Thank you. Now let's get into it. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host,

Caitlin Bristow. And I would say there are certain women on the internet who don't just share their lives, But they shift something within us. And not because they're perfect, not because they've figured everything out and it's aesthetically pleasing or any of that. It's because they're willing to exist in the messy middle, which is where I love when people create content from for me personally. So today's guest is somebody who, without exaggeration, has changed the way that millions of women see their bodies.

She didn't do it with filters or before and afters or promises to fix anything either. She just did it by showing up exactly who she is. is as a person. So stretch marks, aging, motherhood, identity, loss, reinvention. And lately, she's also been navigating what it looks like to go through something deeply personal while the world watches from the outside. So she's the creator behind the Birds Papaya, which is, she's a friend of mine and that's what I call her. I'm like, hey, what's up, birds papaya? She's the host of Papaya podcast and someone who has built a platform not on perfection, but off honesty. And I love her for that. We also do a deep dive on our PMDDD. But anyway,

We go off many different tracks. And that's why I love having friends on the podcast. So let's welcome Sarah to Off the Vine. I also just saw a clip from, God, I'm so hard on myself. I just saw a clip from a podcast that I did. And I almost cried because I looked older. And I'm like, that's what happens, Caitlin? You are older.

Did we ever think, do you remember what, because we're both in our 40s now? Do you remember what you thought 40 would look like? Yeah, I thought I'd be in like pants up to my tits and like, well I am in pants up to my tits right now if you want I can I think they are okay wait that's so fair I also like have my pants listen they are but they're stylish but yeah but I would I thought like because my mom now feels looks dresses cooler than she did at 40 and at 40 she was in like flower print blouses and like beige trousers that was probably cool then or was cool even a thing when you were like was or did you just dress like you my mom was a teacher she dressed like a teacher

All I know is that 40 feels like 28. I don't know what anybody's age is anymore. I think everybody's the same age as me. Whether they are 23 or 50, I think we're all the same age. I have stopped being able to differentiate anything. And I also just think like if somebody had told me at 25 or even 30 that like I would feel the best. At 40? At 40?

Yeah. Not 41. I would be like there's no way. Yeah. But now I look back on photos from when I was 30 and I was like, oh, I actually think I'm getting better. And now I'm looking towards the future being like, oh, I hope I look back on 40 and be like,

ooh, 50 got better. Yeah. Just keeps getting better. But yeah, there are moments where you're just also like our period hormonal phases. Oh, God. Have you ever watched like videos where people like show their change of body and face through their cycle and how much it shifts? No.

So whenever I have like a moment around like why am I not connecting the same way? Like I'm feeling a little off. like nothing looks right. My face feels like it looks different. Look at my cycle. I don't know what phase it is, but it's like that's part of it where it's like, oh, because you're supposed to feel more connected

and more attractive and all these things when you're like ovulating. That makes sense. I mean, I pay attention to that stuff all the time but not look wise. I always pay attention to like. Oh, there's, I'll send you some videos. It's so, so, so fascinating.

And I think, you know what I think is so interesting though? Like just as a sidebarred all of this, don't you ever think about the fact that like men are just moving through the world with like a stable environment and we are moving through the world with and like having to manage everything with like a constant fluctuation. Yeah, I think about it daily. The fluctuation and it impacts our anxiety, our moods, our ability to how we work out, our sex drives, like all of these aspects of our lives are impacted every single day by our hormones. Yeah. And by the cycle that we live by and men are just like,

I know. I get very upset about it because I go, God, if you only knew, I wish men could just do, do women. Do women? I wish they could. Yeah. For one month. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then see what they would do. But also that will never happen. So we just have to drill it in their brains. But I'm also so proud of us because look how much we do while we're like bleeding and hormonally like all the fuck over the place. We both have PMDD. That's like a whole other beast to deal with.

I have a whole statement and hear about it. Well, lock in. Yeah. It's time to go. Buckle up. That's a whole segment I've got even though I talk. I feel like I talk about the same shit every podcast, but I just get more information every time because I'm talking to different women.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very validating and also, it's like validating, but it's also defeating at the same time. Do we cry and scream into the abyss but hold hands while doing it? Yes. I feel. Yes. Listen, I'm on a quest to like start a commune and I just feel like that's the next. I've already started.

I found land. Oh, a reality show commune is like, that would be a. No, that would ruin the point. Not really. Well, we're going to show other people how to do it. True. We need a farmer. We need a baker. We need. And like you all just get the one thing. And then you support each other. Imagine one of you has your period and you're like, I know what to do to set you all up. Yeah. It would be beautiful. I just get so tainted by like, like even the camera, I'm the camera, I'm looking at it right now and I feel tainted by it. I'm like, what are you going to make me look like? What are you going to make me feel? What are you going to do behind it? Oh, yeah. It's going to make us feel a whole. Yeah,

I don't identify all. the time. It's a very weird. I have a weird parasycial relationship with my own self. Yeah. Yeah. Because we only see ourselves through the reflections that we see it. Even like the way we see ourselves in our phones is different than the way that people see you. I don't like that messes me up. Like if I change like if you ever do like the inversion of the like how it flips to like how people would freaks me right out. Don't know her. Who is she? Yeah. But that's I mean your whole career started with one photo. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, it did. And I hated that photo and I cried. I almost threw up.

I was going to ask because so many people know obviously the impact of it, but I'm not sure everyone understands like the moment behind it. Yeah. First of all, your whole story and journey has been, and we've podcasted about this before, but new listeners and sometimes I even forget the full story. So before you took that photo that changed your whole career, what was life leading up to that?

Like, long story short. Yeah, the elevator pitch. I had been a stay-at-home mom. and had really lost my identity in just motherhood. So I decided just sort of in the loneliness of motherhood and wanting to connect with other people. Blogs were big at the time. So I started a blog and I nicknamed it after my two daughters,

which was Gemma Birdie and Maya Papaya, and there began the bird's papaya. And so that was 18 years ago. Holy shit. Yeah, because the youngest, the birdie of it is turning 18 this year. So that's my measurement because I remember she was only like months old. So she was maybe like six, seven months old when it started. So yeah, we're coming up on 18 years.

So I did that as a way to connect with the world. But at the time, blogs were all about like your home and your kids and your meals and like your crafts. And then Instagram came about and it was all about you and what you looked like and what you were wearing. And I was now postpartum after three kids and I had moved back to my hometown. So I thought all of these things of like, okay, now I'm going to go on a weight loss journey. And I did. And I had a small following from the blog. But I grew a massive following.

well, at the time it was massive for weight loss. My motivation behind it was like, I want to be able to live my life more. I want to feel more confident. I want to show up for my kids. I want to do all of these things and go down this line. And I lost confidence. I became so obsessed with what I looked like. I became obsessed with my size.

I slipped into disordered eating without realizing it. I was a size zero, 113 pounds. Going from what? I was 225 pounds at the beginning of it. And I did this all without, I didn't have any financial access. to support of like nutritionists and fitness trainers or anything like that. So everything was like very, very disordered. But I didn't see it that way because everyone's like, you're losing weight. Congratulations. Like that is the story. So I had to really start living life after the after photo,

which was like I was going through divorce. I had to learn how to like nourish my body, show up for my kids. I'm working multiple jobs. I'm doing all these things. And I'm still doing this Instagram thing on the side. And I'm still doing these before and after photos. But in that, a lot of people would ask like, why don't you have any loose skin or all that stuff from like your weight loss? And I was like, oh, like I do. And I showed like one inch of it. Like I, I dipped my toes in the water. But in that, I was wearing, it was at the time called Nixware. It's Nix now. An underwear set and I tagged them and their founder DM'd me and asked if I would show up for a photo shoot. I said, no. Because my image was so controlled. I only wanted to, I only wanted people to see me in the

way. And I was so obsessed with it. I was editing, like all of these things. So then I did go to the, she convinced me. And I went. And I went. And, And I assumed, because I'm a woman in society and I've never seen stretch marks in anything, they're going to put me in high rise, they're going to cover it all up. And they put me in low rise, took out my belly button ring. And the photographer was like from a low angle. And I was like, oh, no. But that day was also so beautiful because then I watched the person who was like the professional model on site.

She had stretch marks in cellulite. And it was like this really empowering moment. Long story short, or short sort of long. That was good. I'm going as fast as I can. I feel like I'm on 1.5 speed. Sorry for anybody who's putting this at 1.5 speed. Yeah. So then I, that photo came out. And again, this is maybe like eight years ago now. But at the time, you might be like, oh, yeah, stretch marks are normal. At that time, I had never seen them on anybody else, let alone in advertising. Now my image is being dropped into the ether of the world and in marketing. And it's not me posting it. It's them posting it. And I got, to read the comment section from people who don't know me. It's not my followers. It's like literally customers and people around the world. And I'm reading one after the other because I felt so sick. I was like, oh my God, this is like, this is, it's over for me. This perfect image I had is gone.

So you felt exposed. I felt so exposed. I felt embarrassed and I felt to me I had always looked at it through the lens of like it's ugly. And so now I'm looking at it and I have this beautiful smile on my face and I'm in this underwear. It's a, it's a beautiful photo, but the comments really were where my life changed because in the comments was thousands and thousands of women saying, I have never seen a stomach just like mine. And what they didn't realize was that I was also finding out for the first time. And suddenly this like thing that I thought was ugly was no longer something I was standing alone in. And I started being like, okay, I've lived in this shame for a long time. I know now what it meant for me to see it and for what other women to see it. And I just decided to go,

go for it and start sharing that a lot more. And to this day, I work very hard around stretch mark normalization, postpartum body normalization. I know that they all look different. But there's some really heavy statistics around women in their postpartum bodies that really kind of drives me. Can you tell us a couple? Okay. The one that like strikes me the most is, and I don't know where it's from. You're going to have to look this up because I'm not come with an aunt, but I just know it. Yeah. There is a study that was done that said about 65% of mothers would love to have a full mummy makeover, but they can, they won't because they don't have access to it financially. So this is not a conversation of like, is it good or bad to get a

mummy makeover? I believe in body autonomy. Everyone do what they want. But you're telling me that six to seven of all mothers are wanting that but can't have access to it. So where are they and what are they doing? Are they showing up in their lives? Are they feeling confident in themselves? Are they able to see the beauty in their body without having that access to that? Do they feel represented in media? All of these different questions. So I just sort of like, listen, I've been offered full mummy makeovers. And there was something about all of that event. I always thought that eventually if I had money, I would do it. And I just sort of sat back and go, I just need to be the person that I really needed at the time that photo dropped. And I really now, I find it so, there are moments that I'm like,

oh, I could go for, I could go for like a little bit of everything. But I really settle back in the fact of like, I really do believe this is beautiful. And I think that we all deserve the right to show up the way that we want. And I just would like to represent this one type and this one experience, especially if we're to be honest about it, it's the body did what it was supposed to do. I find it funny when they're criticized, when stretch marks are criticized because like, what do you mean? My skin didn't rip open?

It actually like stretched. It moved and stretched. It's just, it's so interesting. And so yeah, I do it in a, in a, and I saturate with it. I do it a lot. I show people and I show it often. And I do it unapologetically because I need people to stop feelings. I want them to stop feeling sorry.

I want it to start being the same way that you can scroll a social media page. I was looking at this model's recent. And like her whole page, her abs are showing in every single photo. There's nothing wrong. with this. Right. But there's no comments being like, why do you always do this? But there is for me, like, why can't you cover up? Like, why can't, like, there's a, there's a need to like remove this discomfort for people, but that's not my job. I actually want to do the opposite. I want, I'm going to do it more. Like, you say that you don't want, I'm going to do it more because I just

think that there's value in showing up and like just, I don't know, I really want to change the way that we see ourselves. You do bring a lot of value to the internet. And every time I scrolls, I don't stop and go, wow, she's so brave. I go, God, she looks hot. Yeah, she looks hot. Listen, I used to do this like, let's do the brave thing. Let's be brave and wear shorts. Let's be brief.

And it was for a time that that's what it was. And now I'm just like, I look hot. Like, I just like, I think that's hot. And I just, you can't switch out of that mindset once you're like, this is gorge, this is hot. There's moments that I don't feel that. Like, let's be clear. But like, majority of the time, I'm like, it's just, it's whatever.

actually feel great. And so, yeah, anyways. I was going to ask because you were met with so much love and support and like, wow, I've never seen this before. But you were also and still continued to be met with resilience on it. Of course. What surprised you more about coming out there with with this photo that you didn't expect to, I'm assuming you didn't expect to change your life. But yeah, what surprised you more the love or the resistance? I honestly don't remember a lot of resistance back then. I think more now. Oh, yeah, a lot more now. I mean, so that went like somewhat viral. And then I did Sports Illustrated runway and that went very viral. And so I really got a lot of both. And it was really interesting because it was either women going, I didn't look like that. So why do you look like that? Or it was women being

very, very grateful. Like this is amazing. Some people being like, I just don't think you have to show it. And then there was a lot of men going, I don't need to see this. How do I make sure? that my wife doesn't look this way. Oh my God. How like Susie that I went to high school with has six kids and she doesn't look like that. And it's like there's so much going on. But I think of the majority of people like men just say the stupidest things about it. It's just because they have like such a lack of understanding and respect for a woman's body.

I'm going to be honest if you look at the studies of like the what men are drawn and attracted to. I'm watching Love is blind right now. Oh. I'm just going through it. Yeah. this idea that women should look like an 18 year old body for the rest of their life. It's insane.

And women, their attraction actually grows. So men, there is a different statistic, different study, but like men's attraction like almost always stays around the ages of like 18 to 25. And women's grows with age. Like we actually,

our attraction grows. And this is not all men. Like, let's be clear, but just in these studies. So I just think like, are we actually going to create our beauty standards off of what men are attracted to, which is like a body that we had at 18, which is just unrealistic.

We're not statues. We are people. We are beings. Our bodies are going to change. That's what they're supposed to do. If we make decisions to change them as well, that's also amazing. But like, change is inevitable. So our existence and our value and our relationships can't be hinged on the one thing that's guaranteed to change.

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I've just always put so much pressure on myself for beauty standards, but that's because it's, I mean, I forgive myself for it because I'm like, well, yeah, it was conditioned into our brains. We have to. We have to forgive ourselves. Also, like you're in a level of scrutiny that a lot of people, maybe don't understand unless you live through it. It's hard to show up every day and get a review on what you look like, what your voice sounds like, who you are. That's, it's a lot for most

people. So I, this is why I'm like, I just have a lot of grace for women to make choices for themselves because it is a difficult sandwich to be handed in life to be a woman in a body. And so I always, whatever women choose for their bodies, like, I'm here for you. I will support whatever it is that you choose. I really just, I think that's just the lowest hanging fruit is to hate on women and what they're doing. Yeah. I think I want to take an axe to the tree. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot because it really, the low hanging fruit, I usually hate that same because it's usually used by scummy businessman being like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is a very good analogy for it because that's exactly what it is. How did you get Sports Illustrated? Oh, it's such a wild story. I was actually in the

middle of like about to quit Instagram. Stop. Yeah, I was being bullied really badly and I just was like going through it. It was new in my PMDD diagnosis. So as you know, like each month, you just basically feel a level of devastation and loss that you're just like, I can't possibly continue. I was actually in the middle of shooting Nick Swim. I was with Lauren. And it was the day of a strawberry moon. It's like a sports illustrated model. I love her. It was the day of the strawberry moon, which is a wishing moon. And Lauren said to me, Sarah, have you ever been to Miami? And I said, no. And she goes, we should do a girls weekend there. And I was like, I'm in. That was it. Flash forward to like four hours later. And I had applied for Sports Illustrated for like many times. So there was no

application process that year. So I don't know what happened. And my manager message and was like Sports Illustrated invited you to walk their runway in Miami this year. And I went, oh my God, that's amazing. And I told a couple of my friends, I'm like, but I'm not going to do it. And I was like, and my one, Alicia McArville, she, she sat me down and she said, nobody's taking this away from you. You've wanted this for so long. Your answer is yes. Yeah. And I just like, cried and cried and cried. And I was like, okay, then I'm going to do this. And there was part of this that because I had this mentality of like, I'm done with the internet. I'm done with doing all this. That I was like, what is there to lose? Yeah. So why not? And then it ended up

reminding me of my purpose. It ended up like reinvigorating me. It ended up, I got to do it with Lauren. I got to do it with Hunter McGrady. I got to do it with like some of the people that I've looked up to so much. And I got to walk that runway. I did not expect a positive response. Again, I thought it was going to be bad. But I promised myself, that I was going to do this and I walked in a string bikini, which I know is like the quote unquote, not the flattering choice to make. I had a cover up and I will never forget.

I was determined to one not be silly about it. I didn't want to be silly and funny and like, let's not make a mockery of this. This is serious. So I'm going to look hot. I'm going to look fierce. We're going to walk down this. And I'm going to take off the cover up.

And I expected crickets. It's kind of like when you, it's a sports ill story runway. I'm aware. I'm aware. I'm not like outside of this world. I know what these people are expecting. I take it off and there was an eruption. Oh, that makes me want to cry. There's this woman to my left and I hear her go, that's a mother. Okay. I'm like the week before my period too. And I'm like, that makes me want to stop. That's amazing. It was and it was so unbelievable because I kind of forgot I had to walk a second time. So I did that and I

turned around and then it was like, oh my God, I did it. And it was like, get changed right now. You got to get back out there. But that moment, that moment meant a lot. And so then posting it online, again, it called like 80 million views or something insane. One and a half million. Like I have it pinned on my profile. It's like still one of my most proud moments because I, I knew what it meant for me. I really, at that moment, I didn't think it was going to be something that was accepted and loved or adored. I really did think it was going to be a crap reaction of a lot of crappy guys. And I was just like, bring it on. Let's fight. But I really did it for me. And so that that moment was really beautiful. And I think anybody who, anybody who's ever struggled with like suicidal ideation,

you really struggle to find a why. You really struggle for a purpose. And in that moment, even though I didn't need their applause, I didn't need that eruption. Yeah. It was like the universe was telling me to stay and like reminding me of like, even if it was like for this one thing that like what I was doing mattered. And so I could take the hate and I could take the bullying, but I couldn't let them take me away. Damn. And so I came home and I remember sitting on my couch and showing it to my toddler. And she just, I just find kids are so beautiful because they just love you. Yeah. My daughter right now, she's really into K-pop demon hunters. Yeah. And in the show, the main character, she has these patterns that makes her a half demon, half K-pop demon hunter. But like, they look like stretch marks. Uh-uh. And so my daughter thinks I have these patterns. And she's just like, oh my God, you're just like roomy. And I did a little bit.

of it and it also went viral, but it was just like the sweetness, like, can we stop taking men's opinion on what they want for our bodies, which is like they want us to look like nothing ever occurred for us and we haven't done these miraculous and amazing things when like the little, the people, the society that we actually birthed is actually looking at us and going like, you're awesome, you're the best. Like there's just, there was so much. So coming home and there's these moments where I get to, like my kids are, my older kids are, you know, adults now. And I've just watched them. I know everybody struggles with their body, but it's also just been really beautiful to watch them live their lives in ways that I never did. Yeah. And because of how you showed up as a mom too. I hope so. I never know you can take credit. It's like, listen, this is so f***ed up to say. But like, do you ever think about serial killers? And if they're like, what if their moms are like really nice people? And they just like, it was just the kid. I do think about that only because I think of what if I birth a serial killer and there's nothing I can do about it. I know. So I'm just like, mom's.

Like, but yeah, so I try and be like, there's no report card on motherhood. I'm really proud of how I've showed up for myself in the ways that I would want them to show up for themselves. I don't want them to sit on the sidelines of their life. And if I want that for them, I need to want that for me. And so there's been a couple years now since all of that that I was like, let's just say yes to things. Yeah. Did a reality show, did more. Like I got my body painted and paint and laid down on a canvas in New York. I did a bunch of other, I would, I've chosen outfits now that. I think are a little bit edgier, show different parts. I'm just, I'm just leaning in. Well, I love it. I feel like

this again comes with the way that we are aging compared to the generation before us is so different because we're also getting so empowered in different ways and showing up differently and owning our space and leaning into the uncomfortable and then growing from the uncomfortable. Like we're doing it so differently in the best way possible. Yeah. And it is funny because one of my favorite things. I had this girl on my podcast. She's a comedian, but she's kind of into the political world, but she said something. She goes, yeah, I don't really care if men find me attractive. Like, and then she goes later. She goes, I saw this clip. Yes. And she goes, what, what, are they not going to want to have sex with me anymore? Don't tempt me with a good time.

Yeah. And I was like, that's very funny. When, but like literally, more women need to peel these onions. This is why I brought up the love is blind. And I was talking about this in my stories recently because I'm like, it's so, and I do this a lot with Ross and Rachel and friends, it's so easy for us to feel so like it's us and it's our fault. We've changed. Our husbands, our partners aren't attracted to us. They're echoing this. They're saying, why don't you look the same way you did before, blah, blah, blah.

And then you watch somebody else get told that they don't look good. Like they're not attracted to them physically, even though they've said, I want to spend my life with you sight unseen. And now they're like, I'm not attracted. You could do more. You could work out more. to like a literal fucking beautiful doctor standing in front of you. So like we're, but then we can sit there and go, oh, that guy, that guy.

I'm not okay with this. But then if you can see it for them, I need you to flip it back on yourself and go, I'm also not okay with it for me. I am more. This woman, we're all like, she's a doctor. Yeah, you are also a mother, a businesswoman, whatever the hell you're doing in this world. I'm telling you it's more than what your body is. But it's just hard for us to see it for our.

ourselves and the relationships that we're actively in. And I think using the examples of couples that aren't us on shows and these conversations they can bring up can really put it into context. I have two thoughts on this. One, I totally agree. It's we can, we can scream at our TVs and see the beauty in other people. And then while we sit there and shame ourselves so badly. Yes. Two, I'm really stuck and torn on the humor of everyone calling them a short king. And then because I won't participate. Yeah. I can't do it. Because now we're body shaming him. I know. Saying like, well, he doesn't look like he does cross.

And now we're attacking his body. When really, this guy is very, in my opinion, seems mentally ill and like doesn't know who the fuck he is. Yeah. And he needs outside validation so much. So now we are trolling him to break him about his body and his looks when like I go, okay, at the end of the day, he's a human being. Obviously something is not right in his brain.

And I do not agree with anything. He said, I wanted to punch him in the dick. I wanted to chop. him in the throat, I wanted to just spit in his face, everything. But I didn't think, I don't think it's right to now turn on him and, like, bully his legs. I would agree with this, but I also, like, know that a lot of us, like, you would say it and you'd be like, well, he started it. And I totally get it. I still don't shame people for, like, participating in that. But I do agree with you because I think, like, in the Michelle Obama of it all, like, when they go low, we go high.

But that doesn't mean that we just, like, write it off. She recently was on a, I think it was on Colbert or something, where she was just like, we use the rage. Like, you use. You the rage of what he did and those words and like use it in your life like change the way that you that you see yourself or move through the world or the expectations and demands that you have of your body a little bit like cut yourself some slack yeah but yeah I agree I have the same weird pause of like oh I don't want to I don't want to do that and women do it to each other all the time all the time but like I also I agree with you I think like I don't want to let's not participate in that either yeah but like sometimes I am so surprised that

men that look like, somebody said, oh, this man looks like a folded lawn chair. I laughed really hard. See, there's humor in it. There's humor in it a little bit. But yeah, like, there's just like, sometimes there's just people that, like, what are you? Like, what are you? Like, why are men allowed to just, like, exist and be average or mediocre, but they expect these, like, I know. I don't know. Like, I don't even know what they, they expect an AI now. Like, they expect an AI model. What is he dated in the past and clearly that hasn't worked for him. I don't know. She's been, one of the girls he's dated in the past, though, has been releasing voicemails. This is not. This is like, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a lot to unpack here. I saw she was on reality Steve's podcast. Yeah. And showing voicemails and they're both

sitting there, listen, which he, I mean, he just sounds like a dumb ass. But I'm like, oh, God, now we're adding a now a girl in who clearly wants some sort of attention out of it. And like, I'm sure she just wants to feel and is feeling very validated, which for sure. I get that. I just wish. Like, and I haven't read all the things. I, but from what I did read, he doesn't have regret for saying this. And I just thought, like, listen, I know what it's like to be on reality TV. There is maybe if you're due to it and you're not like really media trained, you didn't really think about how these conversations were going to play out. Sure. You know, there's like edits and cuts and like things that can happen. But like he did say these words. He's like, I don't want to sound like a dick. And then you just said the

almost dickhead thing ever. Yeah, seriously. But, like, you could come out of that and go, like, listen, I really needed to sit and realize, like, what I was creating value in and, like, this is an opportunity for, no, I don't regret saying that. It was like, did he say that? No, I don't regret saying that. I was, like, reading an article, so maybe it's a misquote.

I don't know, but I, I, I haven't seen anything else. It's, I just, I mean, we don't know these people, you know, at all. So you just wonder, like, what has he? What happened in his life to make him be such a... Yeah, you know what? There is always like that hurt people, hurt people, but like we don't need to be a punching bag for that hurt. So like he needs to own his hurt.

He needs to figure out how to get that out. Yeah. He needs to figure out how to get validated and how to create safer environments for women. I'm just going to say it like that. Moving on because that was good. Okay. I agree.

I agree. Thank you. I do. I do. It's the headphones. It's the headphones. It's the headphones. It's a headphones.

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going to call it from now. And like out with the old, in with the new, obsessed with the outdoor rug and the new lounge chairs that I got from Wayfair and how it completely changed the whole vibe. Everything just feels more put together without doing a full overhaul. And I love having people over. So actually using my space, I'm like, okay, this was worth it. If you love a spring refresh too, timing is kind of perfect because it's wayday. So from April 25th through the 27th, you can get up to 80% off with free shipping on everything, which makes it really easy to finally just grab those pieces you've been kind of thinking about. Now, what I actually love about Wayfair is how easy it is to actually find what works.

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now is the time. Wayday is the sale to shop for the best deals in home. Again, we're talking up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. So head to Wayfair.com, April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's W-A-Y-F-A-R.com, Wayfair, every style, every home. I did want to talk about because you do, you know, obviously you're so open. You share everything.

Yeah. But you've talked about how you've shifted from sharing everything to keeping some things a little private. Yeah. So God knows I can relate to that. Can you talk about the shift? So what changed? What kind of things do you want to keep private now and why?

Well, I think I used to just be an open book of everything. And it was fine. I could take it. I could talk about it. My audience got bigger. I started to slip down into the 2024 of it all. which was like really dark place. It was like I was having a party

and I was inviting everyone inside. Like open door policy, everyone come in, everyone come in. And now it was like, okay, there's some stuff going on, guys, I need you to get out of these rooms or like, hey, my kids are in those spaces. Can you, I don't go upstairs in the house. Listen, I made the decision to be on social media.

My family has not. I've always shared different dynamics of my life through like divorce and motherhood. And then they just get, sometimes I feel. feel like a frog on a table just being dissected. And I guess I just really, I've watched so many people where I've like followed them from the beginning and you know so much about them. And then you slowly, like, you're like, oh, like they've changed. You don't really share so much. They just think they're

too good or they never show their family anymore. It's always about them. And now I'm like taking a step back and going, oh, I get it. There has been. And I really want to be clear. It's like it doesn't make me not authentic anymore that I'm not sharing everything. People get very confused. with that. And I would be too, but now I'm on the side of it and I'm going, you know what? The internet is very different now. It's very different now. Things have changed a lot. You have to think about things like AI being able to use your image and your children and you have to think about the fact that the internet is forever. You have to think about, I realize now and going through more things that sometimes you just got to deal with like what's going on inside the house and like show people the door a little bit.

They're still going to peek in the windows. They're still going to like try and script what they think is happening. But like my page and my channel has been about myself, my body. It's been about changes that I've experienced in my life, but I've been very careful to protect a lot of people. And I think that there's been times where I've just, I'm not doing well. So if I'm not doing well, I'm not going to be able to show up at all unless I create some better boundaries for myself to just experience life offline. This sounds so insane, but like giving up my phone for two weeks and doing traitors. Traders to be clear. That was the first time I became like inaccessible to people and I had no idea what was going on online. I had no idea what was going on in the world. It like it deeply,

deeply changed me. It deeply, deeply changed me because I realized the value in offline relationships. I realized the value in life undocumented, even though I was in the midst of a reality show. I came home very changed from that. And it was like, I needed this and I spoke with some of my friends and they're also just like you just have a new piece about you. And I'm like, I got to work for that. At the end of the day, like I, if I dropped off the internet, people would still stay on the internet and follow other people. They would have other people to access and find joy from.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be missed, but like that's the reality of it. If I get hit by a bus, you're just going to, nothing happens for any of them. But in my world, that's a mother, that's a friend, that's a daughter, that's a sister. Like this is, I need to remember the most important parts. And if I am suffering because of this online world, I really got to make an evaluation on how I'm existing offline. And if that makes people feel like, oh, I just don't feel like I see the real you anymore. You still are, but you're still seeing the parts of me that like, hey, come in this room.

I want you here. Come and like, let's come and cuddle. Like let's like come into my room, like come into my space. It come into my main floor of my home. But there's just parts of the house. I don't want you. want you to go in. And that's not because I don't love you. And it's not because I, I just need to, I need to protect the home. Yeah. Because you probably, you,

you show up a certain way for so long. And then there's burnout. There's growth. Yeah. There's, um, a lot of self protection happening. Yeah. And you realize how beneficial that is to you to even just show up better. Yeah. Of course, for the most important relationships, which are offline. And then for online as well. Yeah. It might look different to some people, but to a lot of people. It feels different for me. Yeah. It's been very freeing. It's been really beautiful. And like I also notice the shift and I see it and sometimes I feel like, oh, I just wish I had more to pull from. But when you're going through a lot of things offline, like there's also just, it is going to impact how you show up. And you might show up a little

bit more topically. Listen, I'm like, I'm just going to do makeup videos now. And I'm just going like, I don't, I don't really know yet. I've never, I've never known where I'm going and what I'm doing. And that's been, I think I started my podcast with the line. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing it anyways. And like that still is the thing. Yeah. So like it's all. shifting, it's all changing, but it's still me. And I, I'm really proud of myself. I'm really, really, really proud of myself because I think this is like, it's one of the hardest things in the world to, like he said, like self-preserve. And like that's, that's just where, that's where I'm at. Yeah. And it's, it's funny because I feel like women are so conditioned to over-explain themselves

in order to remain, you know, likable online and all the ways that we have to show up. So it's like, was this like a gradual thing or was it really after Traders Canada that you came back? And I think it was a little bit gradual. I think it was a little bit gradual, especially because like in COVID, we were all in our home. So I was sharing so much about our life and family like every single day. And then we exit from that and just like, I just noticed the shift on the internet culture and just the way that we were, it just became a little bit too much for me. But you're right. Like our struggle with being rude as women is actually like, this is morbid. But think about how many women have died because they were afraid to be rude. They didn't want to say no to somebody.

that when they pulled their car up and asked for directions or like, oh, can you help me with this? Our inability to be rude or just come off as rude has actually like caused us to die. So like we need to be better at like if you perceive my no or my like boundary here as rude, like that actually isn't on me. And like I matter more than what you what you might perceive, right? Like so it's just, yeah, I think about that all the time how many women have died. at the hands of serial killers because they just didn't want to be rude. Wow.

Shit, that is dark. It's dark, but it's like, it's layered. That's the core of the onion, but like go all the way out. And like our inability to be rude causes us a lot of pain. Yeah. Causes us a lot of discomfort. And I'm not saying that you can't do it with like the sweetness and kindness that you want to show up within the world.

But it's like, it really is okay to evolve and change and create boundaries, especially when you're someone like me that, like you kind of hit the end. And you're like, well, there's a choice. There's a choice to make here. And I'm just realizing this is like what makes me feel great. I also really love spending time with other creators because like sometimes you just get to be silly. You get to just do your stuff. But like I follow creators.

I have no idea what's going on. I didn't know if they had kids. I was I was following this one woman. It was all her fashion, all her makeup. I had no idea she was married. I had, until I saw her in space, I like, you had a husband? I did not know.

I was unaware. They didn't change the value in which I follow her for. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, this happens to me all the time where people want me to be the same, look the same as I was on The Bachelorette 10 years ago. And people expect that for me. And when I'm not or when I've, maybe I've grown, maybe I've remained still a bit like edgy or certain people are like. Where's Caitlin that from the Bachelorette? And I'm like, I hope I'm not the same as that person. Yeah. The I've changed. Like the you've changed also has to be like you've changed. Yeah. Like that's so beautiful. Like if you haven't changed like do we want that? I. either. Like I think I, and I also think we really, a lot of us really have to take a look at the internet has changed. Look at AI a year ago to AI now. The internet is changing very quickly. Our mental health around it is changing very quickly. We need to change with it or we're not going to survive it. How do we think it's, yeah. I just think we have to constantly evaluate how we're showing up and like,

oh sure, I posted, sometimes I'll look back and I'll be like, man, I used to say some funny stuff and I didn't think three ways about it. And now I'm like, damn. Like, I'm like, damn. Like, I think through like four different filters before I like, you know what I mean? I know. And like one person is like, well, I didn't like. And I was like, oh, damn it. And it's just, it's really, it's really hard to think through all these filters all the time. I used to just be like, whatever.

I know. I'm trying to go back to whatever. Yeah. I think the 40s are going to give that to me. But I think right now I'm in the protective bubble. And then when I come out from that, I think I'll, I think I'll feel, I think I'll feel a little different. I always love how you've spoken about turning 40 and now 41 because you were the one that told me that 40 is chic and I started saying that.

40 is so chic. I think 40's chic. I think divorce is chic. I think reinventing yourself is chic. And so many people, you know, myself included fear aging. Yeah. But I like growing up. Like I like getting into new ages and decades.

But growing up also feels really young. Yeah. That's what I mean. When you said 28, you feel that's, I can't remember what I, I feel like I changed my age all the time, but like 28, 29, 30 is like around the age I, like you feel inside. So I actually asked this question once, if people feel the age they are. And somebody asked their 80 year old grandmother and she goes, no, I feel like I'm faking it. Like she still feels like she's in her 20s and 30s. And she's just like in an old body, but just like I'm just like faking it till I make it. But like you're,

because I feel like that. I'm now like the, I'm at the age. So I, my parents were young parents and then I was a young mother. So my, if I do the math right here, I believe my parents were around 44 or 45 when they became grandparents. Oh, wow. So we're talking like in three years. I'm a grandmother. But like, I remember them being like, they've always been the more adulty person in the room. My cousin and I talk about this all the time. We're like, we're the adults. Yeah. I know. What? We, we're doing, like, that's, we, I still have my parents. So I still have this, like, they're still the ones. The adultier adults in the room. But then you realize that that's like, when I think about growing up and the age of my mother at like 35 and in my head that felt so old

and now I'm like it's so young. 40 is, 40 is young. 40 is very young. 50 is very young. 50 I even still think it's just marketed as old because they know they can do that to us but like 40 is young and we need to start behaving like it's young. We need to start acting like our age in the sense that like we don't give a f***. Well people always people say that to me a lot is that I should grow up or act my age or dress my age and I'm always like, what does that mean? What does that mean? It just sounds like a boxier putting women in. Exactly. But like again, let's go back and peel that onion. And like, of course you want women to be small and quiet and unseen and unheard. Women, yeah, but women also disappear from media and like advertising over the years. Like you see less and less and less. So you feel less

represented. So then you feel, I feel oftentimes I'm either too late, too late, or there's not enough time type thing. And like, and that perspective's really changed now as I've gotten older and have welcomed opportunities that I wouldn't have imagined to be possible in your 40s. No kidding. Like the, I always keep thinking about the Sports Illustrated thing because I'm like, that is so powerful that you were so, you were a no and then you went to a yes, you were scared and then you're empowered like all doing it scared is confidence going from here to here on like the spectrum of how you feel about something yeah it just from doing something that you're afraid of and yeah seeing the benefit of what that just did to your whole soul and being and yeah I think a lot of people

when they talk about confidence or they look at confident people they're like oh they have something that I don't and I hear this all the time like I wish I had your confidence and I'm like I wish I had the confidence you think I have too yeah I am making a choice and like the confidence sort of follows it like You're standing there. You're on this stage. You're on this platform. There's no other choice but to walk forward. You might fall.

You might trip. People might boot. You don't know what's going to happen. But the confidence is actually that you took the step forward. It's not that you did it without fear. It's not that you did it. And like it's because of what you're wearing. It's never been those things.

I always like the analogy of like a power suit has no power on the hangers. Like we give credit to things that aren't the, like that's not the thing. Like, yes, you got a new haircut or that. lipstick, that makeup looks good on you or that outfit's amazing, but like, none of those things matter when it's not you at the core. And your confidence can't be hinged on all these variables, but like they can be part of it. Listen, I feel like 5% more confident with the spray tan. Can't explain it. Can't explain. Don't know what that is. I don't know. Like, yeah, when my hair is freshly done, I get it. But also time, money, investment in myself, like these are all things that are

also those things. But I think a lot of people think that confidence is doing it without fear. And I'm telling you every single time I'm doing anything. I'm literally, I was like crapping my pants about this podcast this morning. So I was like, stop. And I've done this so many times with you. Like my period is also coming next week. Oh, there's just like, yeah, we're, my sisters. Yeah, we're, what is, I wonder if that's a, there's a name for that. Blood sisters. Sure. That's the one. Yeah. Like, there's just, but there's a lot of, uh, second guessing, a lot of fear. Confidence is for me a choice. Yeah. It's like doing it scared. But I'm doing it. So like, That, what does it matter?

It's my favorite, favorite thing. I say it all the time, do it scared. It's, if you don't, you're going to look back on your life and do the what if. The way that you, you articulate things is what I'm thinking in my brain and then you just say it really well. Oh, that's really lovely. So many things that you've said, I'm like, God, that's exactly what I've been trying to say for so long. I just like, I, sometimes when I really struggle with finding the ability to do something

for myself in the very moment, I think about myself at 80, who like doesn't, care as much her ficks are so gone. And she just wants a good story. So if you fuck it up and you fail, hilarious, great story. Podcast content. You're going to talk about it forever. And if it goes well, you're also going to tell that story. But the story you don't tell is the things that you didn't do. So wouldn't you rather do the things that you want to do and reach for scared on the risk of failure because that's better. And so when I can't quite grasp something for myself in the moment, I think of 80 year old me and I'm like, damn, she needs a story, guys. She needs something.

Let's feed her. Let's give her something for the retirement home. Yes. That baddie needs it. I think about that too. I don't know what. I also think of 80. Oh, yeah, 80.

Yeah, I think that's like it's referenced a lot like our 80 year old cells. Yes. The average lifespan is 72. No, it feels great. Is it? Is it changed? I know. We're not smoking and drinking as much.

So I hope it's changed. I hope so too, but then. Smoking is back though. No, it's not. Smoking is cool. pool again. No. Not in my world. I think that they should bring back the pop-eye cigarettes to sort of offset this. Oh my gosh. Give us the candy. I hate cigarettes. I like the look of it. You know what, Hudson Williams? This might be your fault. Love you. Why? Because he looks so good with a cigarette.

He's been a puffet huffin and popping around. I feel really embarrassed that. I don't know who that is. What? Caitlin. Oh, he did robbery. Oh, doy, doy, doy, do it. I'm on, I've been stuck on episode three because I am now... Wait till episode four. Episode four is when I was like, really? I am reading three different books at the same time right now.

Yeah, no, I get it. I'm watching four different shows because I want to podcast with you. I am like... Episode four is the bar scene. That was like the reason I started watching it. It was just like, what is this?

I've never seen like angst and yearning played out so perfectly in a way that you could just feel it. Oh, I'm so excited for you. Have you seen Weathering Heights? No, I'm going next week. Oh, okay. Then I won't say anything.

Oh, my God. Talk about feeling, the yearning. The yearning. Okay, but is it like devastating or horny? Both. And also very red flaggy and like, um. Maybe we need these examples. We need the Ross Gellers.

I know. Okay, we've always had different opinions on this because Ross is my favorite character. You can love him. He is a walking red flag, but I still love his spaziness. Terrible boyfriend. He's hilarious. Yeah. So funny.

But. with Jacob Blarty, I'm like, the whole, the whole thing is all very faked up and dark, but also it's very romantic, but also it's very, um, toxic, but also it's very like, it's a timepiece. I'll see it and I'll review, but I'll tell you right now, I'm not against like a little, a little obsessive weirdness and yearning. No, no, not against it. This, this is that. We did this, like, we were at a dinner. I was with Bales and we were like at this whole dinner and, um, her um, her friend Kai was my friend Kai too. Hi Kai. Um, did this like game. and we were talking about different things.

I'm not going to say the name of the game because maybe she markets this. But there was a question of if somebody, let's say you're dating somebody and they made a shrine about you. You find out a month into dating. This is like a great relationship and you go over and you find a shrine.

Yeah. Of yourself. This happened to me. But are you complimenting or are you icked? I'm icked. Because I was like, I'm not out. Really? I don't know.

I think I have to live through it. But Lex was also at the dinner. I like Lex Nico. And her and I were also like, well, we're just not surprised. Like, you should love us this way. Make a shrine. Why is that off that? Why is that off the table?

I was also 19 when the shrine was made. And maybe this feels a little different. And I wasn't as into it, obviously, as he was. So if it was Jacob now and he was obsessed with me, I feel like that would be really hot. I just think as long as there's other safety things, like why the shrine, I think we need to know that. Are they hexing you or are they manifesting love? Is it like a, is like a dream board and like this is my dream person and I want to like

cherish and love them or is it like an obsession they can never leave me? We have to know the intent before we can downgrade the shrine and like write it off. Always so many questions to a deep question like that. Listen, we don't know that. But is it a totally off the table? No, I don't know. Now I'm rethinking. Well, you had a shrine.

So obviously that feels a different for me. That's okay. Honestly, maybe it should be for you. Yeah, it is. But would you be surprised that somebody's obsessed with you? They should be. No, I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes I get surprised that people aren't as obsessed with me.

Like, why did you not make me a shrine? Yeah. Wait, now I wonder why. Where's my shrine? I don't have one. But I want like a mental one. Like, I want to know that they're mentally shrining me in their head. I don't come out with like a shrine business.

Like buy a shrine. But it's more of a vision board. And so it's like a healthy shrine. It's a healthy shrine. Now the word shrine sounds weird. Yeah, we're saying it too many times. It's one of those. I'm like,

That's not even a real word. Okay. Shrine. Oh, I really want to come up with a great name for it. Shrines for you. No. Sunshine. Sunshine.

Oh, sunshine is great. Sunshine and lollipops. Yep. Yeah. I love thinking of a good name that has a pun in there. I just saw somebody who for their family for their birthday every year, like makes them a shrine. Oh. So like this isn't bad.

That's, well, a family shrine is amazing. Justice for the PR of shrines. They need to make a car. I remember there's this guy that I was really good friends with in high school and his parents definitely had a favorite child and he had a shrine in their basement and the daughter did not and he did. That's Ross Geller. Are you describing Ross Geller and his parents who had a shrine? Right.

Yeah, they did. Remember? Because all of Monica's stuff was destroyed and they had kept everything of Ross's seat. That was this. I have really noticed this lately that I keep reaching for the same few things in my closet. Like I'll try something on, take it off. And then I'll just go back to the pieces that I know I feel good in. And a lot of those pieces have been from quince.

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So that way they cut out the middleman so you're not paying for all that extra markup. It's crazy. So you end up with pieces that you actually want to wear, not just hang in your closet. And if you're trying to make getting dressed feel a little easier, I do always recommend checking them out. So refresh your spring wardrobe with quince. go to quince.com slash vine for free shipping and 365 day returns now available in Canada too yay go to

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I think it's important. How do you show up in the world when PMDD is got you down? And when did you realize it, like, it wasn't just normal PMS? Like, when did you realize? Because this was very new for me. Yeah. So it's really interesting because PMDD, for those of you that don't know, it's like PMS, but on a very high-end scale.

So, but anything that you're experiencing, like, let's say you're struggling with, like, high anxiety, maybe even, like, really dark thoughts. Like, mine got quite dark. But sometimes these things are quite normalized. Like, I actually, this was not my regular doctor. So, like, shout out to my regular doctor who took this seriously. But I actually went and I was like, hey, I thought about driving my car off the road.

And she goes, this is so common for mothers. And I went, I don't know that it should be. Yeah, so like, we can't take common for normal. Like, that can't be the thing. Yeah, because was she trying to just like validate you to make you feel better. But at the same time, that's not helpful. Like, that's something we hear a lot type of thing. But I was like, we got to dig deeper.

This is not normal for me. However, this all started for me because I did have these days. I would have these really, really low days. and I would have really catastrophic thinking and very high anxiety and some dark thoughts. But hey, three days later, it felt great. So you don't really notice. You don't really take it seriously if you have something and you're like, oh, clearly I fixed it because I feel fine now. So I actually, three years ago, I actually stopped drinking alcohol because my migraines were really bad.

But through that, I was actually tracking my period symptoms. And with that, it asks you for mood things. And I was tracking like headaches and stuff like that. But I was noticing my anxiety and stuff all coming. in the exact same times and these suicidal thoughts were also happening during this time. It was getting worse. I also was like somewhere between postpartum and perimenopause, which I think was like maybe a catalyst. I think a lot of women as they approach perimenopause that could also be happening. I don't really have the answers for this, but it could happen at any

age. The statistics around it are terrifying. From what I've read about 86% experienced suicidal ideation, about one third can make an attempt on their life. life. We now go and look back and say how many women lost their lives and we didn't know this is what it was. It took so much awareness around postpartum before people took it seriously. PMDD is sort of like that. But I had only learned about it from a couple people I follow online who had been sharing their experiences. And I was like, huh, this sounds like me. But I really needed to make sure that I wasn't just like self-diagnosing because somebody I followed online had it. Because like, listen, there's a lot of things that people will describe symptoms. And I'm like, oh, that's definitely me.

But I went through the proper process of like start with self-suspecting. Second, started tracking. I went in with data to my doctor with about six months of data of like these fluctuations and like started to talk about options. I highly, highly, highly recommend her mood mentor. She's on,

she's like a PMDD doctor of some sort. I don't know her exact title. She was on my podcast once and she talks so much about the fact that this is both physiological and psychological. So things like, like cardio, hydration can actually impact the symptoms that come out from it, but it's also psychological. So yes, your fluctuations of hormones and how that's impacted month to month impacts you and the final result of it. So I feel like I'm managing a lot better because I

have this awareness at the beginning. It felt like devastation. Vicki Pattinson, if you follow her, she is incredible. She talks on PMDD so well because she was one of like the first women to really come forward with it. And she describes it as like building a sandcastle. And you build it and you build it and you build it. And then the wave comes and it washes it all the way. And you're like, okay, I got to start again. You know that wave is coming, but you have no choice but to keep rebuilding over and over. That can feel for me, it felt very overwhelming. I was very sad. I was like I went from the relief of a diagnosis to, oh my God, it's every month. Yeah, I always call it clockwork, which is like the most devastating clockwork. It's like clockwork and there isn't really a lot of options and solutions.

So it's a lot of like learning about yourself and managing. I actually was training for a 10k around the time of my diagnosis and I did actually see a huge change in some of my symptoms because I was doing more cardio. Yeah. Like understanding that the nourishment of my body actually changed the outcome of these things. Like I had to look at these, I had to look at everything from a different angle and light and like this is how we survive. I also. went to Disney a ridiculous amount of times during that time because I recognized that like, honestly, I didn't know I was going to make it. I really didn't know if I was going to make it. It got really bad. And so I was like, listen, these like tiny, having something to look forward to

like a trip was like keeping me going some days. It was really hard. I couldn't make, I can't make business decisions during those days. Nope. Relationships, I have to be very like, hey guys, like these are the days and everyone's very, I have to seek, if I'm not able to cook food for myself, make sure that I have like cereal and milk in the house and like eat. Just make sure I am eating for a lot of people when they struggle with mental health, they eat more. I eat less. Same.

So I go into. So people will be like, you're losing weight. I'm like, if you see me losing weight, I'm likely not doing well. I might be doing well. It might be something good. But it also is more likely that I'm not, I'm not doing well. So I under eat. So I have to be prepared for very low needs things.

And because all of my energy is going to showing up for my kids. And I'm just like end of the day. Like I've got it. That's it. So yeah, I'm very proud of myself for how I've managed. I remember when you announced your diagnosis and it felt like it just, it feels like like there's more and more people coming forward with it and like having these diagnosis and it brings this community.

It's a club that none of us want to be in. But I'm so glad we're not alone. Totally. It's so interesting because I always think about how I show up online. And I'm like, it's so, because people would never know that I had PMDD unless I talked about it. Because in those moments, if you think I'm pulling out a phone, I have like the most epic meltdowns. But again, I, so what helped me is I went on medication. Now that's obviously not for everybody.

I did at the beginning as well. But Selexa, I went on and it changed my whole life. It just definitely helped. It was the self-awareness and being diagnosed and having a name for it and not feeling alone. and the medication because I definitely, like I would, I would, I've always said this. It was just so much stronger than me. I would definitely have very bad, dark thoughts. Yeah.

I remember like middle of the night always, never. Yeah. Swimming cortisol spikes. Oh, God. And I was like, what is wrong with me? Yeah. I definitely now looking back, I can say that like, no, I wasn't crazy, obviously. But in those times, like relationships and past partners probably thought I was insane because

I didn't understand what was happening to me. And it wasn't all the time. It was just three days of really, really bad darkness where I was wanting to pull out my hair. I wanted to hit myself. And like the rejection sensitive disorder that is often connected to it, which is like basically somebody says something. They send you a text and it just sounds off.

Yeah. And you think, oh, oh, no. Like, is this ending? Like, I didn't get a warm hug from partners when I was like this. They're like, oh, God, I got to get away. Yeah. Nobody knows what to do. do, right? So it's kind of like the, the relationship failures are actually quite high, but in friendships,

one of my, one of my really best friends just also got diagnosed. And I remember, I had kind of suspected it for her as well, but I was so glad that we have community with each other. So we just speak of it like, oh, these are my days right now. When are your days? And we sort of like now have this understanding of like, you just check in a little bit more. You just, you've got to. We can't rely on everybody to be doing that for us. And knowing how dark it is, a very simple heart emoji or just I love you. It doesn't, as long as you're not asking for anything, like you won't get anything from me during those times. But distraction has worked really well. It's actually funny on traders. I had told them that I had this condition and they said, are you going to have it during the time of filming? And I said, no, it'll be before. But then my cycle was

off and I did have it. And like, you just see me crying. And I'm just like, going, I'm sorry, I have this condition. I just, I'm just like, I'm crying like, I suck at this game. That's the worse when it happens because your cycle shifts because of something life events. Yeah, whatever. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait. I was like, I'm just like, I'm really bad at this game. Yeah. And I'm just like, I watched back and I was like, oh, that was just like, yeah, clearly my period was coming.

But I'm also like so proud because I'm like I still, I did all of these things. Like I actually got through it. I think that crying like when people talk about, I saw something recently on a podcast. I don't remember who it was. It was just something I found on Instagram. But they said like, how do you manage your emotions? And she was like crying is managing. your emotions. Like crying is it. Like we're allowed. Like, and so sometimes a really good release can make a

huge difference. I also have like, I have a couple like comfort movies. I have comfort. Like, you just get in. I watch Moana. Yours is Moana. Yeah. You don't want to know. What is. I do what? I do want to know. Mine's Black phone one. What's that? Black phone. Yeah. It's like Ethan Hawke and Mason Thames. Oh, I love a good new movie. It's based off of, oh my God, it'll change your life. It is so creepy and look the cover of it looks like a horror movie and it kind of is it's about a serial killer in like the comfort movie i i know i know you need to hear me out this kid has had the world has knocked him down over and over and over and over and now he's in the basement of a serial killer and he is defeated but he has this gift and the phone is all the past victims

and they all start to teach him how he's going to fight back but he doesn't have the fight in him so without giving too big of a spoiler you get to see him get up and you get to see him fight and there's something about watching somebody that's something about watching somebody's be so beat down and so struggling, but then at the end, you get to watch him get up and fight. And I will sit and I will sob during that. My other movie is Twisters, so I don't know what that says about me.

There's mine, the Moana. Moana. Oh, but Moana also just like, fuck me up. I just cry. You got to get on a Disney cruise and see the Moana stage show, like the Broadway show. It is like, like I was reaping. Everybody knows on this podcast that I am not a cruise

scale. No, I wasn't either. Actually, I remember that. Disney Cruise will change you. Okay. I would try it. If I'm going to go on any cruise, it'll be the Disney cruise. And you can just do like a three-nighter. So you're like not really. Okay. I was with Justin Pissuto who was also saying that like Jillian Gillian's husband. He was like so nervous about a cruise. We were on he, he loved it. Really? I don't want to quote for him. But I mean, I was there. He was having a great time. He was having a great time. We had a lot of fun. We went to the haunted mansion bar. It was great. I mean, anything's great with that company. Yeah, yeah. They do a great job. They are. Shout out. I'm obsessed.

Send us on a cruise, Disney. Send us on a Moana, Disney Cruise. If you send me on a Moana Cruz, I'll go. I'll go. I'll go. You know, they have European ones. Yes. I want to go on a European one.

I don't. That's fine. I just want to go to Europe. I'm about Bahamas. I'll go to Bahamas, but I don't want to be stuck on a cruise. No, they'll drop you off on their little beach. And you can go swim in the water and you can dive down and find Eric. Like the statue of Eric.

What? For real, though? Yes, you can snorkel. and like they have like a snorkeling area. They have their own private island. And you go and you snorkel and you find like the seat from the dumbbell ride is like in the ocean. And then Eric like literally the statue of Eric from the little mermaid in the water and you go and snorkel and see it.

Don't they say something strange about adults who love Disney? Oh, I'm sure they say a lot of strange things. I'm on this earth because I'm a Disney adult. I don't, I give no apologies. It my, you know, so many people are looking to heal their inner child. I'm looking to keep her alive. She's the best parts of me. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I had a really beautiful childhood and my parents were Disney adults. Wow. Okay. My parents honeymoon did Disney. No, they didn't. Yes, they did. And I, they hadn't gone for like 20 years, but I brought them back and we all went together.

And then it's sort of like, are your parents still together? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, their house is like a Disney house now. Ever since we went back, they like fully, yeah, they spent their 40th anniversary. They went for two weeks. They drove down. They did a park like every third day. And like, just walked around and did all the stuff and like, oh, adorable. It was, yeah,

it's been so fun watching them have fun. I went on a girls trip too doing it and I was like, there's something about getting to be kids with your friends that are adults. You never got to have that. I fully agree with that statement. Yeah, so yeah, I'm a Disney adult,

but like, get Christina Perry on here. She's got lost to say. She's got good. She's got, oh, she's the biggest Disney adult. Okay.

Look how, her daughter's name is Pixie. Oh, that's a really cute name. Yeah, she has her Disney tattoos. I got into Club 33 once, and I texted her and I was like, you'll never believe where I am. I'm in Club 33.

What's Club 33? It's like the secret club in Disney. Shut up. You can only get in by invite. And she sends me a picture back and it's her tattoo of the club 33 symbol. And I was like, oh yeah, you're, she's like the leader. She's up there. She was on my pod and I was like, can you tell me the story of how you became a Disney adult? And she was like, well, I was dating this guy who was a huge Disney adult at the time. And I go, who was it, John Stamos? And she goes, yeah. No. I was like, John Stamos is a Disney adult? The biggest. I was at D23,

which is like their big conference when they announced all the things. And he came out and he was like, say it loud. So you're proud. Disney adult. And I was like John fucking Stamos. This guy. That's funny. Yeah, he loves it. He loves it. So yeah, listen, I love it. Again, I went to Disneyland once.

Nope, twice. Once with when I was 19, I was in love with this guy in Vancouver. And then this guy that I was in love with back home in Edmonton came to visit and it was very confusing. Yeah. And he ended up taking me to Disneyland, but I realized in Disneyland I was in love with the other one, not him. Oh, wow. And so Disneyland became very like, I didn't enjoy it because I was like, get me home. Yeah, you need to get, you need to have a new experience. Well, and then I went when you're the bachelor's because you're part of the Disney family, you get to go and I got all the VIP. And then I was like, well, that's how you do it. Yeah. But you're

go to Disney World on the VIP. Okay. There's four parks. Do you like Avatar? Yeah. I'm okay on it. but there's a ride there where you're literally riding a banshee and like you have 3D glasses and it's the closest you'll actually get to flying like I wept like it's beautiful oh that's cool and Tron yeah it's all very cool cool somebody could tell me on being a Disney adult I know that listen it's the power of suggestion that you fight with joy this is me I feel like we have so many things that we put out there for like how we're going to survive adulthood and life and our mental health whatever your joy is use that as your fight wow my joy is sometimes really riding on a ride where I just forget about everything else. And I fight with, I fight with what makes me happy. And it doesn't have to make sense to everybody if it makes sense to me. So right now I'm playing a lot of Animal Crossing. Wait, I love that. Dancing is that for me, dancing and singing. Girl, I wish I could dance. Oh, my daughter got really into dancing with the stars this year. And she's like, do you think you would ever? And I was like, please, no. I, really? First of all,

cute, you think I would ever be asked. Maybe they could be a. It's also, I imagine. But like I genuinely, my kids were playing just dance and like it tells you the moves to do. And I was like 30 seconds. I'm terrible. Did you enjoy it though? No.

Like if there's like a little, if I'm like out with my friends like it, I actually just don't care what anybody thinks, I enjoy the moving of my body. I dance alone at home all the time. But I just, the same way that I can't remember a lyric properly, sometimes I do like a lip sync video and I'm like, oh, you're saying the wrong words the entire time. I found one of those in my drafts this week and I was like, you never know the words. I've been singing songs for like 30 years and I still don't know the words. The same way, I just can't remember dance. Oh, I can remember movie quotes and dance choreography. Like nobody's business song lyrics, not so much.

I wish I could learn to line dance. You should come to Nashville and we could take line dancing lessons. I'll do it. You feel like you time travel back in time. There's this one bar. I haven't seen you in Nashville in a hot minute. Last time I went, it was like a dog tour. I was with Doug the Pug and your two.

And I just have all these photos of me snuggled up on your sofa. And there's a picture that we took together on that trip. And everyone thinks we look like sisters. We do look like sisters. But like we're different heights. But there's something. It's like our eyes. There's something that people like,

you guys look like sisters. But it's also like one of the only photos I have with you. So like whenever it was your birthday and put it up and everybody, you look like sister. You were blonde at the time too. I was very blonde. Yeah. We'll take a redo.

We're going to see what happens. I'm going lighter right now because I want to go copper soon. Ooh, that with your eyes would be so good. That's why we look like sisters. We have the same eyes. Yeah, yours are a little bit lighter. But like, look at the Whitney Levitt of it. I know.

Her, when she went caught, I was like, I know. She looks so good. I've known her for years. What? Yeah. I like, I met her in Utah. I met a few of the girls before the show or anything. How?

At a conference. Yeah, she was speaking at it. I was speaking at it. And Michaela and Macy were attending. And it was like a, it was like a, I met Christy Sarah there. What? It was wild.

And that's when I got introduced to dirty soda. Oh, interesting. Wow. Yeah, it was. And that's why I thought it was so interesting when they got the show. I was like, oh, this, like, I knew Whitney, like, before all of this stuff. And I just, it was funny when people were, like, deciding that she was the world's biggest villain.

And they were just like, how could you? I'm like, I've known her from before all of this. And, like, she's so happy for her. I just saw she got extended in New York. Her family's moving there. It's, I really, again, like. like her final dance with Mark and like the messaging around that. Brilliant.

There's something about somebody. And sometimes when the internet gets loud for me or like I just hear it too much, I guess is the difference. The internet's always loud. But when I hear it too much, I think about them. I think about, I think about the mom talk girls. Yeah. They just keep getting up. Yeah, they really do.

They're the black phone kid. They're the black phone kid of society. They're that. They are that. Oh, my God. You have to watch black phone and tell me what you think. I'm going to tonight. It might feel a little bit scary.

It's very, very good. I like spooky. Oh, you'll love it then. He'll love it. Is it on one of the streaming networks? It must. Okay. I had a great time on this podcast.

Yeah, great to be back. I haven't done this since the live show. It's, wow. Is it really? In Vancouver? I did two. No, we did Toronto. We did a Vancouver.

We did Toronto. Do you remember? What? Ramen came out to like the Lion King's song. What? He was my only baby at the time. Oh, listen, he was the internet's baby. He still is.

Honestly, he's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I remember he was so sneaky when I first got him. He was very mischievous and sneaky. And he would try and like get out. And I'd be like, I'm trying to give you a good life here. He liked the streets. Like he would like run out of the door and want to be outside and like go run in traffic. Also find it so funny.

Whatever people like ask me about you, the one thing that I always think is like the funniest thing I realize is that it's like all of you. You and your dogs were just like scale to like 75% font size. So if you see you all online, you just assume these are huge dogs and that you're just like 510. That's funny. And then you meet and you're just like, oh, you're all just like tiny. Little versions. But like they're little golden.

They are little goldens. They hold them like a baby. Yeah. That just was my funny. I was like it's literally when you're at 100% font and you shrink it to 75%. That's funny. That's you and the dogs. I like that.

Yeah. That's a funny thought because it is. Most goldens like the one I had with Sean was 102 pounds. Tucker was 102 pounds. And ramen and Pino are both like 52 pounds. Yeah, they're little babies. Their little faces are just. I'm obsessed with them so much.

I'm so glad they're here in Toronto with me. I look at pictures of them so much. It's actually ridiculous. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Well, let's not have like another five years before. All right. Okay.

Do you know that like, okay, yes, a photo is the reason like I blew up on the internet and stuff in the first place, but also this podcast. No, it was. I hadn't even quit my day job yet. Really? I had 80,000 followers. You had me on because you had seen something. It was like in the same time of like that photo and things like that.

But I came on. You mentioned me in your story. This is like the way of the internet at that time and like versus now. You mentioned me in your stories and I grew 10,000 followers overnight. I was on the podcast. It was like another 10,000, it just like I will always have so much love and adoration for you. And this show because it was the first like, it was like one of my big breaks. I ended up quitting my job like a.

like a month after it. Aw. Yeah. And then I became full-time. I will always say they're like some of the best. Yeah, they are. They're really, really great.

You've cultivated a very cool community of people and any of them that I've ever come over to my side of the internet. I love them because I know, I know that you've created a group of women that like are so cool and chill. And like they seem like they're part of internet culture, but like on the right side of it. I know not all. I know we can't generalize it, but like for the most part. I agree. really, really great.

Anytime I do a live show or meet a vinyl in the wild, I'm always like, they're unbelievable. I would be friends with them. I watched, we were in Vancouver and I came inside and I was like, Caitlin, they're around the block for you. It was like, but like in the online world, do, like, yes, you can see, oh my gosh, like a literal 80,000 people watching my stories. That's the same as like an stadium. But like to see it in real life and like people lining, I was just, it's one of the most magical things I've ever been able to witness. It was very, very cool. They're very cool people.

And like genuinely, I was like, are we just going to keep hanging out? Like, that's how I felt. I never want to go home. I usually get in trouble from venues because they're like, you only had the venue for this long. And I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to leave my people. Yeah, sometimes. Well, thanks for having me back.

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Hi, I'm Lauren, and I'm Chandler. And we're the host of Pop Apologist Podcast, a weekly podcast devoted to celebrity gossip, Hollywood deep dives, real housewives drama, and anything and everything, Taylor Swift. We're two sisters who make no apologies for our love of pop culture and the fact that A-listers might be more to us than each other. Join us on your favorite podcast app every Wednesday for Pop Apologists. Pop Apologists, your new favorite sister and celeb podcast.