Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Sarah Shahi | From Sex/Life to the Messy Middle of Real Life!

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

#917. This week on Off the Vine, Kaitlyn sits down with actress and author Sarah Shahi for a conversation that’s raw, funny, and completely unfiltered!Sarah opens up about growing up feeling like she didn’t quite fit in, her family’s escape from Iran, and the winding path that took her from pageants and the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders to Hollywood — including a chance encounter with legendary director Robert Altman that changed everything. She shares honest reflections on motherhood, divorce, and what it looks like to rebuild when the life you planned no longer fits.They get into the Sex/Life TV show phenomenon, the flood of DMs from women around the world that followed, and how that moment sparked her new book, Life Is Lifey. Nothing is off-limits — from intimacy on set to trusting your gut, fighting fair, and choosing yourself one step at a time.And just when you think you’ve heard it all… Sarah reveals her favorite chapter she wrote — spoiler: it’s the one about blow jobs. You don’t want to miss this one!!If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these deals!Covergirl: Go the distance with COVERGIRL’s new Eye Enhancer Wrap Tubing Mascara for a lash extension effect. Shop at your nearest retailer now. Only from Easy, Breezy, Beautiful COVERGIRL.comBombas: Head over to Bombas.com/VINE and use code VINE for 20% off your first purchase.Pura: For a limited time, get a free Pura Plus home diffuser when you subscribe to your favorite fragrances for 12 months. Grab your free diffuser at Pura.com.Tempo:  For a limited time, Tempo is offering my listeners 60% off your first box! Go to TempoMeals.com/VINE.Audible: Listen to Messy Love: Difficult Conversations for Deeper Connection now on Audible. Go to Audible.com/MessyLove to start listening today.Apartments.com: The Place to find a place!EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: (6:15) — Sarah shares that her father was on a hit list to be executed — and how he escaped!(16:05) — The chance encounter with legendary director Robert Altman that changed Sarah’s life and launched her acting career.(31:50) — How the Sex/Life TV show led to an influx of DMs from women — and sparked the idea for her new book, Life Is Lifey.(44:55) — Sarah reveals her favorite chapter she wrote in the book… yes, it’s the one about blow jobs!!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode of Off the Vine is brought to you by Cover Girl. Go the distance with Cover Girl's new eye enhancer wrap tubing mascara for a lash extension effect. Shop at your nearest retailer now only from easy, breezy, beautiful covergirl. Bombas, head over to bombas.com slash vine and use code Vine for 20% off your first purchase. Pura, for a limited time, get a free Pura Plus home diffuser when you subscribe to your favorite fragrances for 12 months. Grab your free diffuser at Pura.com. Tempo for a limited time. a time tempo is offering my listeners 60% off your first box. Go to TempoMeals.com slash Vine.

Audible, listen to Messy Love, difficult conversations for deeper connection now on Audible. Go to audible.com slash messy love to start listening today. And Apartments.com, the place to find a place. You're listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. Hey, Vino's, real quick, if you are listening right now, which obviously you are or you wouldn't be hearing this, Can you hit the subscribe or follow button on whatever platform you're on? Please. That one simple thing helps more than you even realize it allows me to keep growing on this podcast and making these episodes the best they can possibly be obviously for you.

That's the only favorite I'm going to ever ask, okay? It truly means the world to me. Thank you. Now let's get into it. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. And today I think I fell in love with a woman.

I really do. She was amazing. Her name is Sarah Shahi. and she is an actress, an author, and I just feel like her story goes much deeper than roles that we have seen her play. She is a light. She told me her favorite chapter to write in her book that's coming out was the chapter on blowjobs, which I then realized she was the girl giving blowjobs to a carrot in the movie Old School, and I didn't know it, and I brought it up, and she was like, that was me.

Anyways, I'm getting off track as I do in this whole podcast, but while the show Sex Life was blowing up, Sarah's real life was also blowing up and changing behind the scenes. and women around the world started flooding her DMs, needing validation, needing permission, wanting to feel seen and heard, which the connection kind of made her realize that she needs to write a book. And she wrote it from a place of her life where it was really messy and not the highlight reel, not a how-to, not a memoir, just like a messy place that you can open up at any time of the day of any page in the book and feel seen. The book is called Life is Lifey, which is just raw, funny, and an honest look at navigating motherhood, relationships, reinvention, all the things that any woman would want to read. So today we talk about identity, desire, starting over, trusting yourself, blow jobs, and what path you're on and how it will always get better. So Sarah, welcome to Off the Vine. I don't know what it is.

For me, I force myself to drink water. Yeah. But for some reason, like, I don't like the taste, even though people are like, there is no taste. I'm like, there is to me. Do you have to add stuff to it to make it taste okay? But even the stuff I add to it, it doesn't taste okay. Oh. Because it's like this creatine powder and then it's the amino acids and then this other thing for my gut.

And it tastes terrible. Well, I hate you because your skin is so pretty and you don't drink water. Like I'm over here guzzling to try and get skin like you. No, I don't know what it is. My parents actually both, I look at their skin and I'm like, I won the genetic lottery with both my parents' skin. Yeah. Beautiful skin. Oh, thank you.

I mean, I'm sure it gets old in your world of like the fact that you started in pageant world, I think at like eight years old. You dug deep. I dug really deep. You dug. Wow. What else are you going to uncover? Oh, my. I'm nervous.

I like to do my research. But I'm like that the beauty standards that you've probably had from such a young age is I feel like we'll get into that. We'll get into that. But yeah, it was different because I have a Persian mom who very much came from the like the world of less is more. Yeah. So while other kids were like piling on makeup and mascara at like eight or nine, she was taking hairspray and a toothbrush and like brushing my eyebrows up. And like that's all I would get.

So so the natural thing got instilled like really, really early. Oh, thank God. That's because I mean, we were talking about this before recording, but even just being in the dance world. Yeah. So much mentally happened to me in that world of like that led to body dysmorphia and so many things that just I wouldn't wish on anyone. So I'm glad that that was instilled in you at a young age. Mine was all about like be who you are, be natural, like you're too young to wear a two piece.

So I was always the only one wearing one pieces, even though I wanted the two piece. But it was like, but yeah, but now I'm grateful for it. You know, it's like at the time, you're like, oh, you suck, mom. Yeah. But like now I look back and I'm like, no, I'm really grateful for what she did. I always say the benefit of hindsight. Kids will never know, you know, until they then have kids or until they're in the position. It's always that. It must be so frustrating. You have kids? Yeah, I do. I have three. Yeah, you have three. I knew what you did at eight years old, but I didn't know you had children. Yeah, exactly. I love that. I love that for me. How old are your kids? The oldest is 16, and then I have twins that's my dream. Yeah. I love twins. If we had the twins first, me and my ex-husband,

we would have never had the third. Really? Like, it's not just two babies. It's like 21 at the same time. Like, it's a lot. I had never drinking more until I had the twins. Yeah, my brother was worried. He's like, if you don't slow down, I needed two shots of tequila in the mornings just to be able to have like liquid courage to attack the day with two newborns. Really? It was a lot.

Like, I had a sleep nanny. And she would come in at like 10 o'clock at night and leave at 7 o'clock in the morning. And before she would leave, I would sneak into the kitchen. I would ask her to, I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry, Cynthia. do you mind going and subloata that whatever grabbing me something and then I would run into the kitchen I would pound like two shots of tequila go back brush my teeth and then come back and be like thank you so much oh my gosh I guess I sit here and say oh I love the idea of twins yeah yeah you're like tell me you don't have

kids without telling me you don't have kids right right right right it's so true but I feel like parents always appreciate later as kids grow up and then go through their own things because then they go oh I see how hard you worked I see what you did for me it's so true I have such an appreciation. And my mom is a single mom for everything that she did for us growing up. Yeah. And never made us feel like we were missing something or we were different from other families. I grew up in Texas.

Yes. And so I always felt the same as everyone else, even though we always had half of what everyone else had. Wow. Yeah. I know your parents came here. Were you born here? I was born in Texas. Oh, you were.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Born and raised. I'm Southern to the core. Oh, okay. I didn't know because where did your parents come from? They came from Iran. Yeah. They fled.

So I don't know if you guys remember that you guys as if there's more than one of you. Well, there is. There is. You guys are you. But there's a movie called Argo that Ben Affleck did way back when. And that was my parent's story. My dad was on the hit list to be executed. And he worked for the embassy, the U.S. embassy in Iran at the time.

And they fled in the middle of the night and got like other identities. and moved out to America and then had me a couple years later. Okay, this is going to be such an ignorant question, but why would they want to execute your dad? Because I left this part out. So it's not ignorant at all. You're just very perceptive. My father and his side of the family was one of the first ruling dynasties of Iran. So like my great, great-great-grandfather was the very first Shah or king of Iran.

And so everyone who was a descendant was on the hit list to be executed. Wow. Yeah. And he got out. Yeah. That's why you're here today. That's why I'm here sitting across from you and freezing cold Nashville. Nashville is really going through it right now.

I was going to say, because I didn't know if you were actually born in Texas or you were part of the family when they moved there. So you didn't really have like any sort of identity crisis from coming over to America. No. No. I did have an identity crisis just growing up in Texas, though, because everyone was blonde hair, blue-eyed and named Ann Smith, you know, and so I was not that. And like, no guys I liked ever liked me back. I wasn't popular. I was really nerdy. And so I did have an identity crisis in that sense that I wanted to really whitewash myself. Yeah, that makes sense. And homogenized myself,

like, I just wanted to blend in, you know. But, and it wasn't until I moved out to L.A. And I became an actress that I started realizing how good it was to be different. Yeah. Yeah. That's, so when you were eight and you were in the beauty pageants that we were talking about, and you ended up winning Miss Fort Worth. That's cool. How old were you when you won Miss Fort Worth? I think I was either 18 or 19. Oh my gosh.

So you really did the pageant thing for a long time. I did. It was, you know, it was one of the only ways my family had a vacation. So I would enter these pageants and I would win like the little local rounds and then I'd get sent to the state competition. And then that would be, and then I'd get sent to like an. National. And then the, you know, and I had a single working mom and three kids. And so when I won, that became our family trip. So then the four of us, my brother, my sister, my mom and myself, we would get flown to the nationals, wherever that was. And then that was our family vacation. Oh, I love that. Wow, you crushed it. Wait, I'm so sorry that I don't know this information either. So your mom was a single mom. Did they divorce or did he pass? No. Well, he did pass, but they divorced when I was fairly young. Okay. Yeah. I talk about it in the book too. My dad was an addict and he was, you know, life with an addict. Like everyone knows somebody or isn't, you know, relationship with somebody who has addiction issues, but it's very up and down. Yeah. So he left when

I was about eight. For part of my childhood, I was in a women's shelter with my mom. Wow. He held a gun to my head when I was six. You're kidding me. He was high. Yeah, I talk about it in the book and the trust chapter. You know, it's like you really have to sort of trust the timing of your life and trust that, you know, it's like when those bad hits come, yeah, the good is also coming. You know, it's like trust the upswing, like it's coming. If it feels like hell, keep walking, keep walking, you'll get to the light at the end of the tunnel eventually, you know? And you had to learn that at six years old. Yeah. That was the theme of the majority of my life, honestly, for the longest time. And then I think it was it was kind of, I think it was my divorce, which is what kind of propelled me into this decision

to have a different reality. And like, I can create the life of my dreams. I think before then I was always, I was kind of just living as a shadow of myself. I wasn't really living up to my full potential and like most women, I just felt overworked, overburdened, like self-care looked like adding metamusal to all of my drinks. You know what I mean? Like that was my version of self-care. Like, alone time was picking parsley out of my teeth for 10 minutes a night. And I was like, is this what life is? Like, is this what I couldn't wait to grow up for? Right. I can't wait to read this book also. It's because, and again, we'll get to this, but I love when people write for the messy, like for the messy state of things instead of for, then you figured it out. Okay, here's how to. No, Caitlin, I have been nothing but messy. And I mean that in like the most beautiful way.

You know, like I always thought like life was kind of about being perfect or as women, you know, whether it's like a beauty standard or you have to be married by a certain age or have children or just have it all figured out. You have to be like the happy Susie homemaker and you have to be the boss bitch in the office. Like there are all these expectations that are placed on us to be this perfect thing. But it's so unattainable. And for me, I'm in this chapter now where it's like I don't give a fuck about perfect. Like I'm the first person to say, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what to do.

I am not the smartest person in the room. I don't have it figured out, but what I am is real. And so it's not about perfection, but it's just being authentic. Preach. Preach. I will say that's, and I give my parents credit for that all the time too. I think you've always known that and you've been shown that. But like life will always test you, especially going into the, you know,

pageant world and then you were a cheerleader and then you're an actress and like all these things where I feel like you were in a world where you were supposed to feel questioned and like the beauty standards we talk about or what life needs to look like perfection. Yeah. And but it probably took so many stepping stones in life to feel like you don't give a. It took a lot of falling on my face and having to put myself back up again, you know, put myself back together again. It took a lot of heartache. It took a lot of failed relationships. You know, it's like, I have a chapter in the book that's called failure and yeah.

You know what I mean? It's like, I am guaranteed to mess up. Like, we are all saints and we are all sinners. You know, it's like I am both the Madonna and the whore. You know, so it's like I am not and to sit there and to judge someone else for their bottoms is just so wrong. It's like judging a cloud for being too fluffy, you know. Every mistake is tailor made for what the person needs for their highest growth.

And it's up to. us to decide whether or not we're going to take that as a lesson and we're going to keep moving or we're going to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. But the choice is ours. That's true. I always have a tough time with that. I'm like, but can't the choice just be a good one from someone else and I just roll through life? Like, why is? Oh, wouldn't that just be so easy? Yeah. That would just be so easy. No, as of course with age and going through things, you do realize that those are, everything that happens to us is for us and shapes us. And it's so hard to think in the moment.

But of course. Yeah. It is always somehow to, you know, either get you back on the right path and learn something. It's usually all the things that break us down first. Yeah. Of course. And it's about, you know, and that's why I love writing about the mess because it's like, I feel like for the, you know, large majority of people's lives, we're told to avoid

the mess. And if you are in pain or experiencing something that's, you know, painful or tragic or toxic, whatever. We try to brush it under the rug or we try to pretend like everything's okay. I know I did for the longest time. You know, I used to drink my problems away thinking they would disappear. But it's like that hole just keeps getting bigger. And it's not, I feel like it's not until you make the decision to look at your pain. You know, then that's where the lessons and the light enters. I say this all the time about how the rock bottom is always like the most pivotal, important time in your life. Oh, yeah. Always. That's where the good stuff is.

That is where all the good stuff is, which is great because that's so much of your book. Yeah. And for people who don't know who Robert Altman is, tell them. Yeah, Robert Altman. Because he kind of changed, speaking in pivotal moments and trajectory changes. He was my acting angel. The whole reason I became an actress is because of him. So Robert Altman was this, God bless, he has passed.

But very influential, prolific Hollywood director. that directed, I mean, some of the most incredible films that are just in the golden age of cinema. Like people like Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, they all look up to him. Books are written about him. And the story is that he was in Texas. I was a cheerleader for the Cowboys. Yes. With no experience in cheerleading.

No experience in cheerleading. I was always an athlete. I wasn't a dancer the way you were a dancer. Like I never did it. I wasn't a part of any teams. and I didn't really like do it for a long period of time. But I knew how to move and I was always really flexible. And so, you know, I made the team.

And then I was in a musical over at SMU, Southern Methodist University. And everyone knew I wanted to be an actress, but I didn't really know how to do it in Texas. So they suggested, well, why don't you try out for the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders? Because back in 1995, they were on Saturday Night Live. So I was like, yeah. They were like the host or the guests or whatever of Saturday Night Live. So I was like, okay, that's it.

That's my way into acting. So I tried out and I made the team. Didn't get into SNL. But what happened was is Robert Altman came to Texas because he was filming this movie called Dr. Teen the Women that had Kate Hudson and Liv Tyler and Richard Gear in it. And the girls were cheerleaders in the film. So we were all background. And for whatever reason, like again, completely devons.

the star is aligned. I had no clue who Robert Albin was, but he took a great big liking to me. And I had a seat next to him every single day. I mean, and you have to imagine, this is literally like, if Steven Spielberg comes up to you and is like, hey kid, like, why don't you come sit over here and, you know, and you just talk about life and what you want to do. And then all of a sudden Steven Spielberg is like, I think you can make it. I'm going to help you. You know, you're like, what? Yeah. So yeah, so I went home like the day that he was like, you know, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to be an actress. I just don't know how to do it. Like never putting together that this is somebody that could help me.

Ignorance really was bliss, right? Yeah, that's great. And so I went home that night. I googled him. One of the movies that he did, which almost tanked his career and Robin Williams's career was this movie called Popeye. Like again, like Robin Williams almost did not work after that movie. It was so bad. But of all the movies that he did, that was the only one I had seen and I recognized. So I told my mom, I was like, mom, the guy who directed Popeye's telling me, I've got a shot. So I had a cherry red pickup truck. I quit my major at SMU. I quit cheerleaders and I went to California. Moved out west. Yeah. I was very lucky. I got a manager and an agent like my second day in town and I started auditioning very quickly. Yeah, and booking things.

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, your first major. My first one, I think was the L word. Oh, it was? Yeah. My first one was the L word. That was my first real. paycheck. And I didn't know what Elle meant. And so I was like, mom, I got a job on the show called the L word. And she was like, oh, that's amazing. What does Elle mean? And I'm like, love? And then I show up on set and like my first day is meeting this incredible actress who actually is still a good friend of mine, Kate Menig, who was Shane on the show. She was like the heartbreaker. Yeah. And it was like, Sarah, this is Kate. Kate, this is Sarah. Sarah in this scene, Kate's going to be going down on you.

And I was like, I'm sorry? Come again? What'd you just say? That's crazy. You didn't even know. That was my first day. Oh my gosh. It was so wild.

It was so wild. I always think about that with the acting world. I feel like, like, even in, obviously, you had a lot of sex scenes and certain things in a lot of your roles. Yeah. How do you do that? It's crazy. It is crazy.

Do you have to just like disassociate? completely take yourself out of like cameras and people around and just like I don't know how do you do it? Sometimes there's alcohol involved right just to block out the nerves as much as you can but actually when I stopped drinking I realized it was much easier for me to play make believe which was weird because you wouldn't think it would be that way so when I had sex scenes like any time within the last four years the more I commit the more I I just really inhabit this person and the role and the story. It's like I can block everything else out much easier.

Yeah, you're that person for that moment. I'm that person for that moment. Cameras don't exist. I just connect with the person in the eyes. If I don't find them attractive, I just try to put another face on them and just like, I'm like the quicker I can get through this. Like the more I commit, the less times I have to do this.

So let's, rodeo pal, like let's go. You know, so. That's amazing. Yeah. I was going to say, because I remember one of my girlfriends, she was in soap operas, and she was telling me, like, sometimes the guy, like, had come out from a smoke break, and she hates cigarette smoke.

And he's got coffee and smoke, and she has to make out with him passionately. And I'm like, I don't even think about that. No, I full on will just be like, here's some gum. Because I'm like, I don't, I don't, you're affecting my job. Because I have to be able to, like, enjoy your tongue in my mouth. The amount of Listerine strips I went through on The Bachelorette. I was like handing them out to everybody and like overdosing on them. I'm actually kind of a germaphobe.

Oh, are you? I am. And I feel like people have diseases or something. You know what I mean? And like, you know, and herpes is something that I'm actually really scared of. Especially as an actress. Yeah, because you have to kiss so many people and you don't know them. And so you're, I always ask for the co-star to get like a herpes test.

Yeah. And because I don't want to bring any of that shit to anybody. Like I'm single. I do not want to take any. I don't want to get anything. No, we had to take herpes test for Bachelor or Bachelor. Yes, yes. That's how you do it.

Yeah, you got to. You have to. I think that's very. It's just business. It's all business. It's nothing personal. Well, and a little personal. Because if you have bad breath and herpes, I'm offended.

I'm out. I am out. That's so crazy. Yeah, I remember watching certain scenes on sex life and being like, how are they doing this? Yeah. No matter how attractive and hot in chemistry, I still find like, I would just be nervous but that's I guess you get over that too you kind of do and there are some scenes you know there's an intimacy coordinator that's there so like some of the scenes that I was filming with Mike

Vogel who played my husband on the show who actually lives out here but like so there were so for example the scenes in which he had me bent over the counter and he was like from behind or whatever like the way we did stuff like that is you have like a deflated um yoga ball like a small little like yoga disc ball thing yeah and you put it in you you put it kind of lower here and it lies in between the two of you. So when he's doing the action, he's actually bumping up against the yoga ball. And I'm feeling the impact of the yoga ball and not him. And it's genius.

It's genius, right? And it actually allows for more freedom because you're not feeling things you don't want to feel. Right. So yeah, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. actually, and the same if you're straddling somebody, depends on the position.

Sometimes depending on where the camera is, you can't have the ball present. Yeah. But then it just allows you that safety of not accidentally rubbing on something you didn't mean to rub on. Right. You know, and it allows you to sort of get lost in it with and feel safe at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Because. Yeah. But are there ever times where like you actually do, are your love at, with the person and you're like, let's just do it for real. I mean, I got with my co-ster on Sex Live. You did?

Yeah. I mean. Like off camera. We were together for five years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, so could you actually just get into it then? Well, we never had sex in front of people.

No, no, no, like not full on, but like I guess it's more. But it was, um, yeah, like the intimacy on the show between our characters, it was a much different, like there were no rules, like in terms of touching and, you. Yeah. You know, like we didn't need the choreography as much because we had explored each other so much. It was a safe zone. Everything was safe. Oh, that's nice. It was nice. It was romantic. So the, your divorce came before the show. Yes. Okay, got it. So this was, okay. And when you first saw the script for sex life, what made you be like, yes? You know, the story was about this woman who, on paper, she had it all. She had two kids, an incredible husband, but she just couldn't stop.

thinking like where did that other girl go like the girl who used to chase her visions and her dreams with like such a passion is now just chasing macaroni noodles from a high chair like where did that other girl go and she wasn't living up to her full her full potential and I had felt like that for so long I had felt like I was living as a shadow of myself yeah and so I the script really made me feel seen I thought it really explored you know the age old narrative that women have been handed about coming last. Yeah. Like, it explored that really well.

And I also really loved that it put female sexuality front and center because it's usually the man that's always getting serviced. But this time, it was about the woman and it was about the woman being vocal. And I just really wanted to be a part of that storytelling. It felt very cutting edge and, like, at the forefront of storytelling at the time, you know? I agree. I feel like, did you know how controversial? but like it brought up a lot for people I think it did and opened a lot of doors for conversation around it which is why it's amazing yeah so but did you see that happening like were you like this is going to be no I didn't you know it's like when I did that show I mean you know when I do any role I never go into it thinking about the end result like I just want to tell the highest degree of truth per the story and the character and the fact that a hundred and seventy people

100 not 170 people like that's all we got we're three people that watched the show um 170 million people from around the world tuned into that and then from there is kind of where the book came from it from like it was incredible it was incredible yeah it opened up so many conversations about like female desire like you were saying oh yeah men were scared of me because it was either either the show brought people together or it pulled people apart for sure Like it was such a truth serum and it kind of came out during COVID so people were forced to be together. And it was like the ultimate litmus test for a couple. That's such a good point.

I didn't even think about that one. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So was like, you were so gorgeous. What? Yeah.

I'm just, I'm staring at you. Oh my God. Don't act so surprised. No, I am. Do not act so surprised. I. No, girls. I, thank you.

Thank you. You are, I'm just, I'm just, I'm. sitting you're staring at you and I'm just like I got lost in your face for a second. I was like, I would cry. Like stunning. Stunning. You don't understand how much that means to me.

Because I have like, like, I remember the opening scene of sex life and I remember being like, this is the most beautiful human I've ever seen in my life. Oh, my girlfriend was so jealous that I got to podcast with you today because her and I would always talk about our girl crush on you. Oh, you're so sweet. I've been studying your face too, just being like everything. I, we said this before we started, I know it's crazy, but I always think brown eyes are just so stunning. You're right.

You're right. They are. They are. They are. No, well, and I think blue eyes are just so incredible. Wow, I love our little moment we just had there. We are so nice. We're nice, bitches.

You can't sit with us. Put us in a lesbian rom-com. We are in love with each other. That's, no, but I always just, thank you for saying that. Yes, of course. I don't even know how to come back for that because I don't know how to take help events. I've also, like, you know, if you feel something nice about somebody, say it.

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Like as women, we think we can do it all. Or we're kind of told, like, that we should do it all. But at the end of the day, it actually takes strength in asking for help. Why is it so hard? Because of our egos. Yeah. Yeah, it's because of our egos. and we like, again, we want to live up to this expectation that we have.

And as an advocate of feminism, as I am, I think there, sometimes it tips too much in one direction where we feel like we are no longer feminists if we can't do something on our own. But that's just not how Earth School works. Earth School, I love that term. That's so true. It's, it's, I always go back and forth on if I am good at being vulnerable or if I'm not. Because there are sometimes where I'm like, wow, I can't believe I just told the

world that on my podcast. I'm so vulnerable. And then there are other times where I'm like, I can't even ask for help because it's too vulnerable. Isn't that interesting? It is interesting. You said 170 million people tuned into that show. Yeah. And people are still watching it today. Oh, I bet. Yeah. That was back in 2023. It was 170 million people. Even though you're playing a character on a huge show, you're still feeling attached to this character. A hundred percent. And she became like a buzz in my veins. I couldn't escape. Which is why you were so amazing. in that role.

Thank you. And obviously your DMs flooded. So people are seeing you as a human being in the character and DMing you personally. Yes, yes. That to me, did that spark the idea for the book? Yeah. So obviously women need this. Yes.

You know, yeah, I was really surprised the amount of women that reached out to me because it was also my own personal life was paralleling the show a bit. And the show came out as the news of my divorce broke. It had already been a year, but I was also in a relationship with my co-star at the time. And so women really flooded my DMs with like, how did you have the courage to leave this, you know, long-term marriage with three children? You started over and you bagged the hot guy on the show. Like, what happened? How did you do that?

And so I really became the poster child for unhappily married women. And then to add to that, the amount of women who reached out that were like, I've never had an orgasm before, or I don't know how to speak up, or, you know, I don't know my body. And so I just really felt like I had a responsibility to women to put all of this information out in one place. So I wrote an article for glamour. This is how it all kind of started. I wrote an article for glamour called Why Desire is Not a Dirty Word. And that went viral. And then from there is where I had this, I kind of got my confidence in where I was like,

oh, okay, I can write in a way that people will listen and will be able to digest what I'm saying. So then from there came the idea of the book. Yeah. That's, I feel like people all over the world could resonate with that message. Yeah. And especially the, like I said, you wrote from the, the messy middle of your life, not the highlight real. No. And obviously that's important for so many reasons.

but why was it important to you to write it from that standpoint? Because I feel like we spend so much time here trying to figure it out. You know, I feel like we're as human beings, we want to know what's going to happen next. And I spent a large portion of my life trying to do the same thing. And so many roads that I thought I would take, I never took. so many things I thought I would never do. I ended up doing. And so I just live in this messy middle, you know? And what I've learned is that it's not about figuring life out, but instead it's about enjoying the mystery along the way. And once I finally gave into that, that it's like, oh, you can't

really control the things that are happening to you, but you can control how you respond to them. You can live life from like a much higher, more enjoyable, like more rewarding place, you know? And so that's why I'm also very quick to say, like, I don't have anything figured out. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. But I do know that if all of this went away like that, I would still be who I am. Yeah. And I would still be happy. And it took a long time for me to get to that place.

Yeah. And that's why I think the book is going to be so validating to so many women. You know, I think that's an important part of it is. we a lot of books out there all the books that i read are just fiction and crazy and i love a good smutty romance novel oh same especially since i've been single for a year now yeah you're like that is my i'm like that's that's that's that's where i get my rocks off now it's like books how nerdy no i'm the same i'm obsessed with reading and i love those kinds of books and all the like i feel like when celebrities write books it's either like a memoir or a how to or this like yeah and and that's the thing it's

like I'm not telling anybody like what to do. Like I actually don't like books that tell the reader what to do or this is how you should do it or, you know, if this is how you should date or you know, whatever. It's like I just think advice is not prescriptive. It's not a one size fits all method. And but what I do believe is that we're in an age where like the algorithms tell us what to watch next. They tell us who to speak with like I'm on riot. Right. So it's like it's telling me like who to speak to. It is, you know, like we can Amazon, a couch to our doorstep. It's like we've forgotten how to think for ourselves. What I learned, you know, and the way I kind of found my like truest self was by stripping out the noise and by not listening to what the peanut gallery has to tell me what to do or say or think or be,

but instead really trying to connect with like me. So at the end of each chapter, I have the section called Turn the Mirror Back on You where I asked the reader like a series of like four or five questions where they're meant to make you introspective, And so from that place, you can discover where your truth lies. Oh, that's, I like that idea. Yeah, like I'm not.

I've never seen that before in a book. You know, because I talk about it, it's like the A-Disease of life. So it's almost like an encyclopedia. Yeah, like women can pick it up at any point and turn to you know, yeah. At any point. Like, you know, because I am a mom of three kids, like it's hard for me to like sit down or reach something cover to cover. So sometimes if all I have is like five minutes here, 10 minutes there, whatever, I can

pick a book up. I can turn to any chapter. And those are the books I always go. back to. Those are the ones I keep on my nightstand, that of my slutty romance novels. Yeah. And yeah, so I wanted to write something that women could pick up at any time. You can just stuff it in your pocket and get five minutes of wisdom if that's all you have time for. Yeah, keep it in your car, whatever floats your boat. Yeah, exactly. That's, yeah, I do. Like I said, it's very validating. And then you're giving a lot of women permission to feel seen and heard and normal.

Caitlin, thank you for saying that because that's exactly what I wanted is I wanted women to have the permission slip to be their most authentic selves. Yes. And I talk about everything in the book. Like it's, it's kind of like your favorite group chat that you always go back to. Yeah. Where you bitch about like men or relationships.

You bitch about like kids, recipes, progesterone. Like the other thing too that like, you know, there's a few chapters in the book where like I talk about sex and desire, talk about orgasms. I talk about progesterone. I have a chapter on blow jobs. And as well as divorce, courage, boundaries. You know, like I talk about like all of it. And it just was weird to me. I remember I was on set one day and I was on my period.

And I told the PA on set, I was like, oh, I was like, I'm on, you know, do you guys have tampons? And she was like, she got on the walkie and she was like, you know, go to channel 71, like whatever. It was like secretive. Yeah. And then they brought this package to my trailer that was like bound and was like sealed. And they were like. 1940s. Right. And it was like, here's Sarah. And I was like, what did I ask for? Oh, what is this? Yeah. And I open it up and it's tampons. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I have to hide this shit.

Yeah. Meanwhile, like Viagra, something to make a limp dick hard. Yeah. Is like widely discussed and talked about and like, how is this okay? I almost forgot this. So when I went home to flush all my toilets and and make sure my pipes are bursting, I had to grab tampa. And I had to grab tampons. Yeah. And I thought, oh, I should put this in a bag. And I went, dad. And I have just like a clear, you're like yelling to the neighborhood. I got my tampons, everybody. I literally kept it in the clear plastic container. Yeah, yeah. Put it in my car. And I was like, I'm just going to walk through the hotel with this. I don't care. Yeah. It's this weird thing. And it's, you know, society, like even film and TV. And it's just this, you know, not to get too heavily into this area, but like the

patriarchy at one point, like was very suppressive. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's, I remember curing, my mom told me about back in the day when you couldn't even walk down a tampon aisle, they'd have paper bags over it. Because it was made to, we were made to feel so much shame around it. So much shame. Yeah. And it's not like it's that much crazier, however many years later. I know, I know. Spooky. Yeah. So ladies, bleed. Yeah, bleed. Just have it dripping down your legs. Just like, don't even put a tape on it. Free bleed. I have a girlfriend who actually, she does that. You're kidding.

She free bleats. Like, she came over the other day and she was like, she's like, I'm a free bleeder. I'm like, what does that mean? Your blood doesn't clot? Like, what does that mean? Like, do you need medicine? Like, what does it mean? And she told me what she does.

And I was like, so how does she, what does she do? She just lets it? Well, there's cloth. Like, so there's a cloth, like instead of putting something in, because that apparently, because in native tribes, there's this theory. where bleeding and actually allowing the blood to come out, there's symbolism in the release of that, right? And I mean, if think about it,

like, you can kind of, you can totally understand. Like, it's supposed to be this very powerful release each month that women experience. Yeah. When you put a tampon up there, this is, is your audience female? They're going to love it.

Okay, okay. I was going to say, like, is it, are we just double X chromosomes this entire chat? And if it was men, I'd be in trouble because this is all I talk about. This is like, okay, okay, okay. This is great. But when you put a tamasome,

tampon up there, it actually stops the flow of the energy. And so I'm going to be a free bleeder. A free bleeder. And so there's like a something that she's ordered off of Amazon that's for free bleeder. Stop. This is amazing. And yeah, so she wears that. I mean, if she's going to go out somewhere, then she'll change it up. Sure. When she's just at home or she was coming over to my house. And it was funny because like she got

up and walked away and I was like looking at her. I was like, do you anything? Can I be a free bleeder? I was like, I don't know. know if I'm ready for that but I do I do love the brands of underwear that you can just put on his boot shirts and you can free bleed yeah yeah because I do I remember hearing something about that years ago yeah I didn't know it was from like a tribe of women who I didn't know it was from that but I heard it's supposed to be this powerful release yes and now I look at my period differently now because I think oh this is my time this is my time to like I don't need anybody touching me or yeah yeah yeah I'm like, this is just my time.

But now that makes more sense. Yeah. Like I feel like periods too. Like I used to hate when partners would be like, you're on your period, aren't you? Or just because you feel a little bit more raw, that time of month, you feel whatever. But I actually think when you're on your period, it's the wisest you are for that like month because you're so introspective. And you're just paying attention. You're just, I feel like your intuition spikes.

Like there's just so much more depth that you feel when you're on your period. it's kind of nuts. I'm a broken record with this thought and I can never articulate it the way I want to, but the fact that our bodies can create life and lungs and fingernails and brains and everything that it needs for a human body. And we question anything our body does. Like we should trust our body with everything that we have. A hundred percent. Because look what it can do. Yes. Like we are literally creators. It's wild. Like we are the superior species. Oh, I say that all the time. That's just like That's why throughout history, too, we've been suppressed. Of course.

And, you know, but yeah, no, it's wild. It is wild what our bodies can do. It really is. And that's why I always trust my intuition because I go, if my body could create another brain inside of there. Yeah. I'm going to trust that gut. Exactly.

Exactly. And your gut really is your second brain. It's brilliant. I mean, it's attached. It's, yeah. All of it. All of it. I could do a whole podcast on that, too.

All of a sudden it turned into a science podcast. No, I like, yeah, I know. We know science. Okay. After the rush of the holidays, what you really want is your space back. Pura is a smart home fragrance system designed to help you feel calm, rounded, and at ease without adding one more thing to your routine.

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I don't know. They were all my favorite, but the one that I had a lot of fun with, I had fun with the blowjob chapter. Tell me your take on blow jobs. Why was that your favorite chapter? Because I'm on the fence on them. Okay.

I used to be really intimidated by the one I'd Willie. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I had a boyfriend. And as a germaphobe putting that in your mouth? No, right? Like you look at it and you're like it's wrinkly and it's vainy and you're like, I'm supposed to want to put my mouth on that.

Like no fucking way. Yeah. So and I and this is how I approach the chapter on it as well. When I first moved to L.A. There was this guy and I had only ever dry humped. Yeah. Before. I was a late for a dry hump.

And bring back dry humping. It's so hot. It's so good. You rub up against like jeans. Like give it to me. So yeah. By the way, this is without mimosa's. Can you imagine what this conversation would have been like if we did have the mimosas?

Like, this is your poor sound engineer. Like, I'm sorry, my friend. And that's your brother? Oh, my God. I am. That's, I'm sure. I'm sure you have. That's amazing.

You're very good, very good. But, yeah, so I got the hint that he wanted more than dry humping. Yeah. Right? As most do after like a couple months. like poor guy. And I was and there was a show on HBO at the time called Real Sex. And it was with this woman named Lou Paget who was older than dirt. Yes. God bless her. Yes. But was like the sex expert and she would go around to different like clubs and dominatrixes and she would interview people and

she was really edgy and very educational and how she put her show together too and about sex and whatever. So she had a blowjob seminar in Beverly Hills. And I was like, I'm signing up. I don't even think my mom knows this. Okay. So this is incredible. So I signed up. I was the youngest person in the class.

And I talk about this in the book. Yeah. We each got like. Don't tell me a carrot. Dildo, honey. We each got a dildo. The movie with Will Ferrell. Yes.

I was in that movie. You were not. And I was in that scene. You're joking. No, I'm not joking. I think I got that movie. You were in the blowjob scene with the carrot and he's like, come on. I'm the one that's like going down on it.

Like that's me. Like I'm the one that had the close ups in that scene. Oh my gosh. Now I'm remembering your face in it. This is incredible. I was a baby. Wow. But yeah, so we each got like some fine china.

We got a plate of fine china and she went around the room and we had our choice of dildo. So there were different sizes. and shapes and literally you had a dildo on a platter. And she was like, all right, ladies, these dicks aren't going to ejaculate themselves, open up and was like teaching us how to open up the back of your throat, how to deep throat. Like she broke the penis down in a way that felt more like biology. Wow. And you felt safe to be like Christy Canyon.

Like you felt, you just felt it again, like it took it out of something. shameful or sluddy and made it all about like biology and why the wetter the better and different hand and mouth techniques and yeah so then I and then you're like I'm going to be an overachiever now I want to give blow jobs that's genius I'm going to do this exactly exactly and so now it's an you know an area I feel really good in and for me it's all about the lazy girls guide to having sex so it's like those days that you would brush away the hands of tom Brady himself yeah but your partner wants something and all you want is to cuddle up with your book yeah because that's all I want to do is just get back to my books yeah you know like if you learn to love a blowjob it is literally your best

friend wow and your guy's super happy and you're curled up with your favorite romance novel in three minutes and that's such an interesting perspective because I've always been like I'd I've I don't even know how I feel about it yeah I feel like it was like it's wrong I go this is not supposed to go in here and I but now if I approach it from a biology standpoint yeah and learn yeah it was the way she did it was really it was remarkable because she broke the penis down with different anatomical parts how are you single I mean I have options I just don't want any of them like those are just not yeah I'm just not into it that's fair enough but yeah so I just broke it down in a way that made a lot of sense and it made it more about biology and like and then knowing too that you can

bring your partner to ecstasy like so quickly and like the man that you love or you're so attracted to you can make them feel so good like that makes me feel really good i think that's an important factor too actually loving and respecting the person oh god yeah not like somebody that treats you like shit and begs you for one no no fucking way yeah like there's the door buddy Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Exactly. I think it's, it's when you, yeah, when you're in something that feels respectful and loving and they really, like, bring out the beautiful, like, feminine divine in you and they're, they're full, like, masculine. You know, do you know, um, Jesse James Decker?

Yeah. Okay. So she, she and I have become friendly with each other, um, the last couple months. And I love the way that she talks about her man on Instagram. Same. It is so, like, she's not like, oh, I don't need him or whatever. She's like, I need that man. I want that man.

And I am into that man. She's like, I will happily make you a sandwich. You know what I mean? And I think it takes a very confident woman, like someone who feels so safe in her feminine energy to be able to say that. I agree. And yeah, I love that. I'm definitely one of those.

I agree. I agree. I think I've been like so anti this, anti that. Yeah. Because I'm in my masculine so many times. that I now feel much different than that. Yeah. And I go, oh, it's nice to feel a little softer.

Yes, yes. And I very much like you. Like honestly, I've been single for about a year now. And it's been a very interesting, like, discovery time for myself. Because I too, like being a working woman, you have to be in your masculine to be able to get shit done. And on top of that, I'm a mom. And I have three children. So I'm constantly putting schedules together and ordering this.

doing that and I'm in charge of this and I'm trying to do that. And I, there was a part of me that also had to be that in relationships in the past as well, like very much in my masculine. Yeah, exactly. And now being alone for the last year, it's like I've really settled into my feminine. And it's so beautiful to be a woman. It's so beautiful to be in the receiving mode. Yes. I agree. I had never, I mean, I just turned 40. No, not just. I'm 40. Accept it. Um, and, I feel like that's already a beautiful thing I found in my 40s is I'm finding the feminine and just being a little more soft and like leaning into that more. Yeah. And like that always seemed so scary to me and now I'm like, no, that's really nice. It's nice. Yeah. Like Cleopatra, she's somebody

who was so in her feminine, so securely in her feminine and just like received. She just received adoration. And there were times of course where she was in her masculine. Yeah. But when she was in her masculine, it was very strategized. You know. I've actually spent a lot of time, like, studying her because I think she's such a, she's such an interesting figure in history. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your partner that got, let's say, messy? Like the kind that makes you kind of step back and go, wow, we really need to talk.

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life is lifey.com. But yeah, anywhere books are sold, you can pick up a copy. Life is Lifey is such a good title. Thank you. It happened in 2020 where people would ask me like, how are you, Sarah? And I'm not a bullshit or I'm not somebody that can't lie and just be like, oh, I'm great. How are you? Like, I can't do that. I'm like allergic to fake sunshine. Yes. And so I'd be like, I don't know, life is lifey. Yeah. Like it's just what I would say, you know? So yeah, that was the book title. I love that too. It's something that I always do and then I go, oh, should I have just said good so that we can move on? Because I hate small talk. Yeah, me too. And but at the same time I go, but I don't want to sit here and tell you why I'm not doing great. Right, right, right. Right. I was sitting next to a couple at dinner last night and it was so funny because they were arguing, but you could tell they'd done so much therapy. Oh yeah. And the tables are very close together. So we could hear. And the, the healthy argument that was happening was profound. I was like, learning from it. Yeah. You know what, Caitlin, I talk about this in the like love and relationships part of the book too where it's like the health of a relationship is determined by how well you fight.

Yeah, I believe that. Fighting is so important. Yeah. Like everyone's going to fight. It's so common. It's so natural. But it's how you fight that will determine the health of relationship. I've gotten a lot better at that because I think in my past I've just been like all I would be just a complete dick. I would just be like, I wasn't willing to have like an adult conversation because I didn't have the capacity for it. I'd just be like, my nervous system's rocked. I'm just going to yell at you and walk away. Where now I feel like it's much different. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's two people like it shouldn't be, because usually in conflicts, two people view it as it's me against you. Yeah. But it's the two of you on one side against the problem. Yes. That's such a good way of looking at it. I'm a visual person too. And I just like

even just seeing that in my head. Yes. Your team, your team. My last question for you is, I know a lot of women feel like they have to endure, like, this long marriage because divorce is such a bad word. Or they stay in it for the kids. Yes, and the vows and this. But I'm sure there are so many women, especially because of the show you're on,

who are probably listening to this, who felt some type of way watching the show. What advice would you have for a woman feeling stuck? Yeah, I would say. Read the book one. Huh? Read the book number one. Read the book number one. I think, actually I do because I think you'll get a lot of courage from there.

Yeah. But also, but again, courage. Like, courage is something that just doesn't happen overnight. Yeah. And to just give yourself some grace and to have compassion, the fact that, and it is hard. Like, divorce is hard. Of course. It's hard to shake up a union, you know, especially if you have kids involved.

But at the end of the day, when you operate from a place that's in your highest good, it trickles down to everybody else as well. Yes. And like, and, you know, you've got one life. Yeah. Like as far as we know, we're just, we're here now, right? Like, we don't know what's going to happen after this. And you weren't put here to be a servant to everybody else's needs.

Like, you matter too. Your life matters too. You have the right to go out there and chase your dreams and to be happy and to find somebody who fills your cup and treats you well. And, you know, can really accept you for who you are, like the good and the bad. And so I just, yeah, I encourage people, women, like if you're having those thoughts, like, trust yourself, listen to yourself, and take it one day at a time. And like for me, there was this one moment, like I remember I read this quote that said pain persists

until the vision pulls. Whoa. And yes, the spiritual leader, his name is Reverend Michael Beckwith. I have spent so many hours studying his scriptures. And I remember the moment where it was like, I'm not going to come in second place to my own life anymore. But it took a long time to get there. Of course. Took a long time to get there.

So just have grace one foot in front of the other. Follow your happy. Yeah. That's another thing I talk about in the book. Like anytime you don't know what to do, you don't know what step to take next. And that's the thing. We're always trying to figure it out, right? Like you want to leave somebody and you try to figure it out in a day.

How do I leave that person? Should I do it after dinner? Right. Or do I wait until tomorrow, like when the laundry's done? Like, when do I do it? It doesn't matter. Instead, what you should focus on is like, what do we know now? Okay, I know I have a really great time with my kids.

I'm going to go play with my kids. I know I want to go for a drive. Go for a drive. I know I want to blast my music. Go blast your music. I want to get my nails done. Go get your nails done. Follow your happy little by little.

And then the pieces that you're looking for, they will all just kind of like fall into your lap. I just went to church in the last five minutes of that conversation. That was such good advice. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You're like a really rare soul, I feel like. Aw.

Thank you. I do. I feel like, I don't know why, to me, I'm like, is she, I keep being like, is she Canadian? Because I just always, like, gravitate towards Canadians. Oh, well, I've spent a lot of time there. So maybe that's part of it. But you're amazing. Thank you.

Thank you so much. As are you. I've enjoyed this so much. Me too. Yeah, you're such a light. Oh, that's how I feel about you. Aw. Just a couple of lights podcasting on a Sunday afternoon.

We're girls who give compliments to each other. Yeah, it is. It feels nice, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Thank you. Thank you. Again, it was just so nice talking to you. Thank you.

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And we're the host of Pop Apologist podcast, a weekly podcast devoted to celebrity gossip, Hollywood deep dives, real housewives drama, and anything and everything, Taylor Swift. We're two sisters who make no apologies for our love of pop culture and the fact that A-Listers might mean more to us than each other. Join us on your favorite podcast app every Wednesday for Pop Apologists. Pop Apologists, your new favorite sister and celebrity podcast. Thank you.