Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Shan Boodram | Navigating Low Sex Drive and Sexual Health!

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

#715. In this candid episode of Grape Therapy with Kaitlyn Bristowe, certified sex educator & intimacy expert, Shan Boodram joins the conversation to delve into the intricate world of libido and sexual health. Kaitlyn kicks off the discussion by addressing recent headlines surrounding her own journey with sexual health, shedding light on the misconceptions and stigma surrounding low libido, and even grappling with the notion of asexuality. As Shan expertly breaks down the concept of libido, they explore its multifaceted nature, touching on everything from emotional factors to societal influences. Listeners are treated to insights on overcoming shame associated with libido fluctuations, the impact of fear and safety on sexual experiences, and the importance of seeking medical advice for concerns about sex drive. Through personal anecdotes and expert advice, Kaitlyn and Shan dismantle myths, offering a refreshing perspective on how libido isn't merely a choice but a complex interplay of biological and emotional factors. From the significance of maintaining intimacy in long-term relationships to practical tips for reigniting passion, this episode covers it all! Whether you're experiencing a dip in libido or simply curious about the intricacies of sexual health, tune in for an illuminating conversation that challenges norms and celebrates the diversity of human desire! Episode Highlights: (8:10) - Kaitlyn shares her personal experience with low libido and the misconceptions surrounding it. (22:20) - Shan delves into the misconception that libido is a choice, emphasizing the complex interplay of biological and emotional factors influencing sex drive. (34:25) - The conversation shifts to the importance of maintaining intimacy in long-term relationships, touching on the concept of the "7-year itch" and strategies for keeping the spark alive. (39:00) - Exploring the exhilarating rollercoaster of emotions at the beginning of a relationship, Kaitlyn and Shan discuss the biological basis of bonding and its impact on our bodies. (45:35) - Shan opens up about the role of companionship and safety in nurturing love, offering insights into the importance of emotional connection in fostering intimacy. (48:35) - Shan shares about the exploration of role-playing in relationships, offering insights into how it can spice up intimacy and... See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And after recent headlines about my sexuality and sexual health, I had so many of you DM me and people reach out saying that I wasn't alone. So thank you for that. And I decided I needed to bring on an expert so that you didn't feel alone either. So I brought on Shan Boudram to unpack the topic of libido and all of the different things that can impact your libido and how to talk to your partner about it and what you should do if you are feeling frustrated around your sex drive. So please enjoy this conversation with Shan. I am very excited to talk to you about this because it's so hard for me to sometimes navigate

a conversation around this because I'm not an expert. I think because on The Bachelorette, even though it was eight years ago now, I was so pigeonholed into being the sexual Bachelorette or the controversial one that had sex and I was shamed around it so much. And I feel like My sexuality is like an easy headline for people. So I'm excited to talk to you around the conversation of low libido and sex drive. And for listeners, I think you know this, but a little backstory is I had mentioned on a previous podcast to my friend that towards the end of my relationship, I started kind of questioning if I was asexual because my sex drive was, I want to say low, but it was gone. I didn't want to be romantic with anyone. It wasn't like I was, you know, emotionally cheating and thinking of somebody else and being turned on.

And I just, I was like, I think I could just be okay on my own forever. I don't feel romantic. I don't feel sexual. I mean, it was a lot of things that were combined to make it, you know, feel that way. But, of course, media picked it up. And all of a sudden, I've seen headlines about it. And my poor dad, he was like, I just keep seeing headlines about your sexuality. It's all over Facebook now, too.

And I'm like, gosh, this is a conversation that clearly needs to be had and talked about. And, you know, then I have people making jokes around it. But I had multiple people in my DMs sharing that I wasn't alone. So I wanted to start off by asking you why you think there is so much shame attached to libido, especially for me it feels like around women. Yeah. I think that femininity isn't as fragile as masculinity. But in that, I mean that we don't have to wake up every day and try to be a woman.

The same way that men have to wake up every day and like be a man, try to be a man. Are you being man enough today in language like. that. So I do think, though, when it comes to femininity or being a woman, one of the qualifiers, one of the few qualifiers is to be sexually available, is to be sexy. And I think that dates back to, I would say prehistoric times. It's really not. You know, 50, 60 years ago, when women weren't allowed to be equal contributors or women didn't have a say, our value was how sexually available we could be to our partners. Our value was in our sexiness. And so our ability to influence and to have leadership was heavily tied to our ability to seduce. So when you don't have that, I think a lot of

women feel like less of a woman. I actually know a lot of individuals who identify as non-binary now. And the major reason, one of the major reasons why is because loss of libido. And they're like, I don't even, I don't feel like a woman anymore. That word doesn't feel like it belongs to me anymore. It doesn't feel right when I, when people, you know, when I hear it on my ears. And I think that, again, goes to that that social stigma that exists. And so I'm curious for you. I mean, as somebody who has gone through that night, in disclosure, have also gone through a period of low libido, but for you, how did it make you feel about yourself? Yeah, I felt so much shame around it because I was already questioning, am I in the right

relationship? But that made me question, like, am I ever going to be in the right relationship? Is this just who I am now? I know I didn't have this before. So, again, my antidepressants, is that a perfect little mix for it to be in here? So then I feel shame around my depression, which is adding. to the low libido. I just felt like obviously there was something wrong with me because, you know, I talked to my girlfriends about this. And even if they have low libido, they still like

would have sex once in a while where I was like, emotionally, I don't have the capacity to even feel intrigued to have sex. And so I felt like there's something wrong with me. Yes, where the truth the matter is, I'd say 99% of women are going to go through a period of low libido within their lifetime. So it is very feminine. It is very woman. It is very normal to go through these dips. And I was speaking at this conference. And there was a bad smell in the bathroom, right? Let's say like a unpleasant vaginal odor that was existing there. And we were having a Q&A afterwards. And somebody raised their hand and they were like, I just have a question around vaginal care. If there are some people who haven't really figured out how to keep themselves in check and work with all of that. How can we

help them? And then I was like, can we just have a moment to stop trying to find the smelly vagina boogeyman? Because we're also afraid of that, right? So we're all like, oh, like, who stinks? And then men all have a story about the one woman who stunk. And then we're like, I'm glad I'm not that woman. But you've been that woman before. I promise you. And if you haven't yet, you will. You'll go through a period of time where your hormones are off or you're extremely stressed or a certain time on your cycle or about a vaginismus. I say that to liken it to low sex drive, because there are a million reasons why your sex drive is going to dip, why you will experience low libido. Some of it may have to do with a change in orientation. You might have, you know,

it could be that you are asexual, describe that about yourself, but there's a whole other host of things of medical reasons, of mood disorder reasons, of medication reasons like you mentioned, So for myself, it was related to pregnancy. And it was so low to the point that I wondered if it would ever come back. So rather than us being like, oh, my God, she has low libido. It's champion her. Embrace her. Ask her questions because this is going to be your story one day in a different way.

And you need to respond to that woman the way that you want to be responded to. You need to show the world and teach the world how to love on, accept and normalize this for this woman. because one day you're going to be that person. And I wish that every woman who took, you know, this as an opportunity to try to elevate themselves above you in this case to say like, oh, my God, like, I do not have that experience. Like, at a yet behind that and see how that changes how you interact with this topic. I didn't expect it to be a headline number one, but I didn't expect kind of the conversations to be so 50-50 where some were like, you know, shaming and others were right behind me.

but I also didn't want that X to feel shame. I didn't want him to feel like it's his fault and he did something wrong or he wasn't good enough. And what really upset me was he had posted like a shirtless photo and, you know, he's got abs and another man commented underneath it and said, nothing asexual about this. And it made, you know, all these likes and yes and whatever, but it made me feel so icky because I'm like,

being sexual to me is not about how many abs this person, has that's not it's not something to joke about like to me it felt really personal and and i was embarrassed about it and somebody else said you know well you made a joke about it on your own podcast and i was like because i was so uncomfortable and i think we have this like like i am even feeling like this shame around it that i don't even know enough about it to obviously explain myself which is why i'm bringing you on like i don't even know how to break it down into terms to say what even is libido. So the two different conversations, one, it was pissing me off that a man said that about me because I'm like, that's not what this is about. Two, how do we break down in simple

terms what libido is? I would love to do that. But I also want to go back to what you said about making a joke because you were uncomfortable because that also lends a place of empathy for you for others who have felt so uncomfortable by this or so triggered by this that they had the wrong response. And I'm a very big fan of be the change that you wish to see in the world. So if you could have a do-over and bringing up this topic that you now know has so much more weight to it, sensitivity to it. How would you have done it differently? I would have talked in a way where I was talking to my community to say who else has been through this. This isn't like a joke to me. This is actually serious. And I would like to talk more about like what contributes to it.

I think I would just wish I was more knowledgeable about it. But I wish I would have just reached out more to my community to say like who's with me you don't we don't have to feel this certain way like let's talk about it yes and that's what we're doing now which is a big part of the do-over i just want to say as a note too because sometimes we can use terms like asexual to describe a period or a phase that we're going through and that could be really harmful to people who that's not a period or a phase for because when that is your reality and you're living in it there might be people who are expecting you to come out of it because i'm assuming that that you're talking about this in hindsight, like, or let me ask you, let me not assume,

do you still feel like you identify with the term having low libido? No, and that is another thing that was causing me a bit of a shame spiral, was even labeling myself as asexual because I do know people, I have one friend who is, and so I don't want to like, you know, you know how people use buzzwords. I didn't want to use it like that. It was just almost like a fear that I was, but I feel like I go through so many dips. And for a full year, I could be fully like, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm feeling very, like, high libido and excited. And then the next year could be, like, completely low. It's, I don't want to say concerning, because I'm sure that's just because we've been taught a certain thing. But it does

feel concerning to me about how different it is for getting into another relationship, like, for my next relationship, which, of course, like, how do you even have conversations around that, you know, because that's a healthy thing to talk about? It is, a healthy thing to talk about. I mean, to address that you have gone through dips or that's something that you have experienced before, I guess I just want a little clarification when you mean like talking about the next relationship. All of my relationships, I've started off very much, like, attracted to them, my libido is higher. I'm excited. I feel like that's quite normal for new relationships.

You go through the honeymoon phase, all these things. But I guess what I'm saying is when I get into that dip, how do I have a conversation around it to not like, you know, emasculate somebody or make them feel like it's their fault or just maybe explain to them because I think

and correct me if I'm wrong but I think that women it's more emotional attachment and maybe I'm mislabeling this as well but I feel like women need more like emotional attachment to have sex and men it's like they can just have sex to have sex

I could be wrong. This is why I have you on. I would say that majority of people would tell you that it's true because it's socialized to be true. So in different cultures where that is not the social norm and they do examinations on women's sex drive and what turns them on and they don't just ask for verbal assessment,

but they also do like physiological testing to see how their body is responding arousal-wise. They might even say I'm not aroused by this because they feel shameful to allow yourself for your primary sexual attraction to be something visual. Do you feel like you have to have something more where their body's telling a different story? So absolutely, if you feel like that's true for you, that's really true for you. But that may not be across the board true. So, yeah, I just want to get to your question about libido, which is a really, really great one because I had this epiphany only through experiencing it myself because I actually did

a campaign just before I really experienced it that was about HSDD. And that is hyposexual active desire disorder. And it's one of the most diagnosed sexual dysfunctions that women can have. And the key indicator as to whether or not this is a sexual dysfunction or it's a detail of your sexual self is the word frustration. And I love that because it puts the power back into the woman's hands. And that essentially means that if this is a place of frustration for you, it's a problem. It's a disorder.

If it's not frustrating to you, it's not a disorder. If you wake up every day and you don't feel that drive. And I think that libido is an easy way to put into the drive category. It's like hunger. You know you know for a fact when you're hungry, but when you're not hungry, you're a little vague on whether or not you could or could eat. You might have zero appetite at all or you might be like, oh, I could, but I just, I don't feel that drive. So the difference is when you are hungry, it's very clear to know that you're not.

When you're not hungry, it can be a lot more vague to really identify how you're feeling or what you're up or not up for doing. And some people might find who have lower libido that engaging in the activity kicks up the drive. Some people may feel the exact opposite. It makes them feel very repulsed. But the word frustration is so important because, again, giving that power back to you to really think about it. Does my low sex drive frustrate me? Is it a detail of my life that really bothers me?

Do I wish that it was higher? Do I yearn for a past experience or version of myself? And if the answer is no, you don't have to do all of the troubleshooting here. You're allowed. I mean, there are a host of benefits when it comes to intimacy, of course, when it comes to sex that your body can get from it and your relationship can get from it. That's not the only way to find those. And so if you're aware that this is just not your way right now for whatever reason and you're willing to honor your body on that, you can find other activities to give you intimacy, to give you bonding and to give you some of the biological and physical boost that you would get from it. So when I was going through it, I did. not feel frustrated by it. I felt like this is a detail of my life and a part of my bodily experience right now. I obviously had like a bit more, I don't want to use the word hope, but I was pregnant. So I was like, okay, this could be my body forever because I have no idea what my body looks like on the other side of this experience. But I also know that I'm going to be single

occupancy again in a few months and so then I can reassess. So I didn't really feel a need to like troubleshoot right now. And that really helped a lot. But it sounds like in your experience, it was a point of frustration. Yeah. So, and it's, it's crazy how this conversation just triggered a memory for me. And my very first boyfriend that I ever had when I was probably 15 years old got so frustrated with me that I wouldn't like do things with him that I wasn't ready for. And that just, like, I think that's still trapped somehow in my body as well because I think I feel shame around making the other person frustrated and that they're going to be frustrated with me and think there's something wrong with me and get annoyed at me and think that they can go somewhere else

and get it. And I think that's a lot of fear around it for myself as well. And that can actually become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fear that you won't have the drive and that you won't be available puts your body into fight or flight, kicks up your stress hormones, which is going to decrease your ability to actually get aroused and respond. Because majority of people, there's some people who do obviously, like in a state of fight or flight, they can experience arousal of confusion. But majority of people need to be in calm and connect. They need to feel safe. They need to feel healthy because you're engaging in an activity that could potentially lead to procreation. So for a survival standpoint, yeah, you want to make sure that you're in a safe

environment with a safe individual. You do want to feel relaxed. So most people are going to respond or feel more aroused or more horny when they do feel safe. So when you feel panic because you're abandonment issues are coming up or your a memory is coming up that you haven't yet healed from that can actually also be like a major inhibitor to actually wanting to be there even if physically it's something that you tell you're telling your body to do i think this is so good for people to hear it's good for me to hear that i think libido is so often seen as something that's solely physical and like there's there is so much more to it and and i think that helps me process it a little better is to think, like, there's emotional factors, there's certain things that will impact one sexual

desire that isn't just physical. I think a lot of times, like, you know, growing up with the magazines and certain things saying, like, this is how to get a guy. And it was all about physical appearance and, you know, being desirable. And I think we have that trauma in us as well. So it's really helpful for me to think, like, it really isn't just physical. And there's a lot of emotions behind it, too. And then I'm curious is that's probably a stigma for men. too, like that maybe I even have about them that they don't have emotional trauma around it, that they just want like, P&V, yeah. I'm like, that's me judging them when they probably have some emotional trauma around it, too.

Like you said earlier in the podcast, like that's part of showing up as a man and what they've been conditioned to think. Yeah, well, that's like another side conversation that we could actually be great to have with the male sex expert, but majority of sexlessness, and we can just call that like consistent discrepancies and sex drive between partners for a long period of time to the point where it feels sexless there's no number on that but there's a major discrepancy in there but majority of like sexless couples it's usually the man who has the lower libido and i don't know if you'd even call it that but less drive to have sex and often that's tied with their function

of erection because that is the fear of being found out of not being able to produce yeah the shame that comes with that, they just don't even want to take part at all. And because they don't know how to even have that conversation, they just brush it off. And often that makes the woman feel as if she's the issue. But truly, it's like something, again, like you said, that just goes way, way back. I was smiling, though, when you were talking because you said, most of us think that it's something physical when we have low libido. And I think that's really cool. Because I would say that even 10 years ago, maybe even less than that, people thought it was a choice. Like, oh, you're just not fun or you're not trying hard enough. Like, why can't you do this? So the fact that we've

gotten to a place now where we acknowledge that, hey, as much as I can move my leg right now, if I want to, I can't tell my pancreas to stop pancreasing, right? I can't tell my appendix to stop doing its thing. There's a lot of my body that I'm not in control over. And that's frightening, but it's also freeing at the same time to accept that. And so I just kind of want to just quickly go over. We don't have to go in depth on these. The one thing I want to say, is that please, if you feel that F word, frustration with your sex drive, stop watching this podcast right now and go talk to a doctor. And I know that that in 2024 doesn't feel like great advice anymore

because people have gotten, you know, a certain stick moment it comes to the medical system. So I think a major issue, especially when it comes to sexual issues, is that your primary health care provider, the amount of information that they have to get in medical school if they want to physicians or primary care is very low. So their own feelings of inadequacy, their own shit that they got from the church and from their parents and whatever else, that's showing up in the doctor's office. So they may brush aside your concerns. They may make you feel very uncomfortable and weird about it. That doesn't mean that all doctors will do that. There are some incredible doctors

out there who are going to work with you. And not all of them are going to push a pill down your throat either. So I want to say that because even if I can talk about natural supplements, that you can take. Aschwaganda is a great option for somebody who has like adrenal or stress issues, but for somebody who has low testosterone or hormonal issues, cacao might be better. So you might have a girlfriend who's like cacao saved my life. That's not actually what your primary issue is. So even that supplement is not going to work best for you. So talking to a doctor who underscans stand your medical history, if again, go on a site like Zoc Doc to find somebody who is rated and reviewed that is going to have this dialogue with you and be comfortable about it.

is you might have low estrogen, you might have insulin intolerance, you might have high estrogen, you might have high testosterone like PCOS people do, or you might have low testosterone, which is a major cause and issue for low libido, thyroid-related issues. And I think that the list goes on, but in order to figure out where on that list is your thing and what is your best next step, somebody who knows your intimate medical history is going to be the best place to go. And that's what I also will say, too, as I think identifying yourself as as a sexual, once you have one come to peace with it the frustration bit is gone two you have gone and done medical due diligence because also to even aside from sex being important sometimes loss of libido

is actually a really good early indicator of other medical issues that are happening in your body so you can take that to find out that yeah i really do have like a thyroid issue i wasn't aware about or i i do have issues with insulin or i have you know experienced a ton of weight loss recently which has had other hosted issues on my body. So I think it's important to have that conversation. So yeah. Well, that's good too because now it's like, well, it's not just physical. It's not just emotional.

It also can be medical as well. And I do think that gives people a lot of hope to know that there is a system out there or a resource like that where you can find somebody that, you know, can actually help you with that because like you said, there's a lot of people who have lost hope in that system. So I think that's really helpful information. And then I also wanted to say you said, like, how far we've come in 10 years. I do have a question about, like, breaking barriers and getting, you know, different conversations happening and how people evolve.

So, like, back in caveman days, it's going to be obviously so different from now. But are people still wired a certain way from back in those days? And, like, do we just have to kind of understand that side of it, too? Yeah, I would love to hear more about that from you because it sounds like we're going to to go on the same train of thought right now. So I'll jump on your train once you get it going. It came to me when you said we've come so far in 10 years. And then I thought, well, how about hundreds and hundreds of years? Because it wasn't for even for pleasure. I don't think it was to procreate. And this was just how it wasn't. And that I don't really know much about that

other than I just think how far we've come. And where do you think that we could still go in the next 10 years. Absolutely. I mean, that is a, the short of that is that we have existed in the way that we do or as homo sapiens for like if we think about the total existence of homeless sapiens is like this and then what's like the umbrella term for all human types. But the humans as we know it today is like this. And then the society that we live in right now where we don't have to worry about predators or food, the basics, food, water, shelter, and safety from larger prey. Like we've existed on our timeline history as that for like this amount of time so naturally i love i think everybody should watch life on our planet on netflix i think it just a it was a one that they should teach that in

school it's just a history of planet earth like did you know that it rained for a million years once a million years of just raining i'm definitely going to watch that though that's if it's i live in l-a and if it's raining for two days i'm like what is this life um it's a million years of rain so It just teaches you the history of it. It gives you so much appreciation for how much time things take. And so like the evolution from amphibians to, you know, having to be able to crawl and from birds, birds are actually like the only living dinosaur ancestor. Like all these things that we didn't know. But when you just watch how slow it takes for things to really change. But when you look at the large scale of it, it's moving rather quickly. And if we have respect for that, how long it takes to change. And we think about how much we've changed our circumstance, such a short amount of time, how could our DNA catch up? How could our jeans catch up to that? So you're absolutely right in that of having an appreciation that our body is in a completely foreign land. As much, you know, remember that movie Encino Man? Yes. Where like a caveman was dropped into the real world and he didn't know how to navigate.

Like your genes are kind of like that. Right. So have some respect for them. It is interesting. And I've said this on my podcast before. I've always been so shallow towards myself with how I look at my body, you know, back in my 20s and it took so much work. And then when I decided to freeze my eggs, learning about my body and what it was capable of, changed my whole perspective and gave my body, I gave my body so much more love and grace and appreciation just from, you know, just a tiny little bit of research knowing what my body was capable of. So it's like, it's kind of that. This is a funny random example, but I was just at a wedding in Hawaii. And it was such a beautiful ceremony and they started it by really having us appreciate the land that we were on and it

really changed the whole i just got goosebumps it just the whole wedding just became so much more beautiful because you understood the land that you were like sharing it with with getting married and associating it with love and peace and all these things and it's kind of like that you can think of your body as your land and what it is actually doing compared to like you know physically what it looks like and that's just a really cool thing Yes. I'm going to make a weird tie-in right now to libido to that because it gave me an aha, as you said that. It was more talking about love and marriage and partnership. We, you know, talked about mood disorders or like the mental things that could be blocking you past trauma that could be blocking you bodily or biological reasons, physiological reasons that could be happening that causes low libido. It could also just be your partner, right? Like reciprocal determinism is a very real thing. We're not like fixed individuals. I am. with you in relation to how you are with me. So you can't say, oh, Shannon's like this. She's like

that because around my kid, I'm a very different person. Around the person just pissed me off in traffic. I'm a very different person. And so our relationships, the way the fabric and the culture that we created also creates versions of ourselves. So there is relationship dependent low libido. And as we were talking about before with stress even, and I even gave this example because when talking about female hygiene or women who have stinky vaginas sometimes or stinky vulva sometimes, you always hear men who tell those stories like, oh my God, it was awful. My whole room stunk, I had to open the windows. I had to get a cleaner in, da, da, da, da, da, da.

And more than likely, they were the cause of the funk because when women are stressed out, so if they're in an unstable relationship with, I'm going to use to use gender terms like a boy, you're not sure if they're going to call you afterwards, you're unsure in that situation, you're unsure about your sexual health because you don't know how many partners that they've had, it is likely that you will start to produce stress hormones. And that is one of the things that mixes with our natural vaginal scent and causes like a foul odor. So the problem is probably you. So I do want to mention that just to say that many people may find that they have relationship dependent low libido.

Your body may not feel safe enough to express itself in that way or it may be reacting to chemicals that is caused by the way that person makes you feel. I say this so many times on podcast, but if you think about how your body can create life, like we sit there and we think it's just so simple, like, oh, I have low libido, I must not be attractive or attracted to this person. When there's like literally chemicals involved and all these different things that are, like, how do we not think our body is that intricate that it, you know, that it can do that. It's so interesting that we just go to one thing when it's so many different things that can contribute to it. And I was going to ask you a few debunking questions, but you've kind of already

done it where some people think like low libido equals relationship issues when that's not necessarily the case. And I did want to talk about masturbation because some people have thought that it decreases libido. And I don't know if it increases it or decreases it, but what is your take on that? I think that's body dependent, but majority of people, if you don't use it, you lose it. Right. So if you're not using testosterone, your body is not creating testosterone. And that is one of the key factors in sex drive. If you're not creating pathways for your brain to see the benefits of orgasm because you're not frequently engaging in it, your body's not going to have or develop a need or desire for it. So I would argue that the opposite is true. And it's interesting that they would say that because, you know, people who masturbate very frequently, they have this like, oh, you're a sex addict. You have this problem. No one's like, you're not going to want to have sex. Like, that's the last thing that we're thinking about. But I just think that we're looking for oversimplified answers to this.

And it could be that because I have absolutely spoken to men who really believe in semen retention. They genuinely believe that if they don't have sex or masturbate for a month before, they get a better physical performance and something else that they do or their health improves. And so I haven't seen tons of, you know, glaring evidence-based research on that. I mean, nobody has or else we would all be utilized in these principles. But heck, if you're telling me that works for you and you're okay with that trade-off, if you're telling me that when you masturbate a lot, you feel less desire for your partner and you're okay with not masturbating enough because you've made that connection,

then that's great and that's your answer there. Right. But you might find that if anything, it actually helps you to experience higher libido just because you're teaching your body the benefits and then you're also creating more testosterone. I thought you were going to say that. I feel like I've heard you talk about this before, or maybe we talked about it on my last podcast, but that's what I thought. And then, you know, talking about relationships and how there's such a roller coaster, you know, you're not always going to be in that honeymoon phase.

You know, there's different stages of intimacy in a relationship. I saw on Instagram the other day somebody was talking about how after three years love is a choice and then you get the seven-year it, and all these things that seem to be common patterns. But have you noticed any common patterns in how being in a relationship can impact our libido? Or do you think it really is body dependent for everybody and every different relationship? Yeah, the it depends answer. I used to really hate so much, but it's not it depends, period. It's it depends and here's what it could depend on. So you don't have to be like, well, there's no answer. Everyone's different. We're obviously not all different or else you wouldn't be able to have an organized society. I'm one of my favorite facts ever is from

Dr. Helen Fisher, who said that, you know, when you first get into a romantic relationship, you're on a chemical high. So think of it as a difference between being on a roller coaster and being in a push cart, like a kid's push cart. So when you're in a roller coaster, you just strap in and then that's it. You just sit back and you enjoy the ride. So when you first get into a connection with somebody, your brain sees pair bonding as a major accomplishment. It's a major accomplishment for survival and, of course, for your chance of fitness. It really wants to do that for most people. Some people, for example, people who identify under the asexual umbrella may not experience life in that way. But for most people, your body and your brain really

wants to do that. And to incentivize you to get into these relationships, it's going to make it feel so good, right? Like, there's a reason why our bodies love sugar so much and they're going to incentivize you to eat more and more and more. Again, that's based on that outdated system. So when you first meet somebody, your body is like, yes, I want to do this thing. Get on the roller coaster, strap in, I'm going to make it so easy for you. But it's actually very stressful on your body to undertake that task. It requires a lot of adrenaline spikes. You know, those butterflies in your stomach is actually damaging your tissue. So if you continued to stay on that roller coaster for 10 years, it would shorten your life expectancy. So for your own survival, your body has to be like,

okay, we're done with the roller coaster. Can you help now? Like now that we're in a place of safety, now that we have done the thing and we've created this pair bond now that there is commitment between us, I can't keep this up anymore. It's not healthy for me. So now we need to exist at a base homeostasis level. And once in a while, can you put in the effort to get that spike up, to get that roller coaster running? But we can't live on that 24-7. Like, can you imagine living with somebody and every time that you walked by them, you wanted to jump their bones? Every time that person talked to you, you shuddered or you jumped, your appetite was. suppress what for 40 years like that does not even seem fun to me so i think if we just accepted

this as a norm an exciting norm like wow it's fun to be on the roller coaster but i don't want to spend my whole life at six flags i want to come home eventually and decide when i get to go back there that is so good that advice is some of the best i've ever heard because i get in my own head about that honeymoon phase and how it goes away and but you're right and the fact that you say butterfly like are tearing up your tissue and for doing that you would your life expects it would be lower i'm like oh my gosh that's so good to know like that's just and you know i was going to say there's so many people that will listen and be like okay what's the one piece of advice for getting that libido back keeping that spark alive but i think there isn't just one answer i think it's this whole podcast

that you could listen to even as a couple or get your partner to listen to this with you and just understanding the human body even a little bit better and knowing that you don't have to keep that spark alive all the time. You can go through that roller coaster and that's okay. That's why it's actually, you know, yourself and myself included, I genuinely feel like such a perfect person to be the spokesperson of it because I'm a sex educator, baby, and I got involved in this field because I was horny, you know, I don't want to say the word horny from the time I was born but I was somebody who was always precocious and I don't look at that as a negative or deviant thing just enjoyed my body I enjoyed the experience of connecting with others as I got

older that got you know more age appropriate but it's been inconsistent for me when I first met my now husband we started out as buddies I don't even say friends of benefits because we weren't even friends I was on the fritz of deportation I just came out of a toxic relationship I knew what I required was just a sexual release and that's all that we were we didn't have anything beyond that. But we had sex nonstop. The only reason I chose him is because of sexual chemistry. When we first moved in together, we had sex every single day. Baby, that is not my story anymore. You know what I mean? And I went through periods of time where it wasn't my story literally at all. And you, who was like the poster sex girl, right, for The Bachelor, you're the horny one. You're like the

salacious. You're their Lolita. And for you to have this experience and admit that it happened to you should be a sigh of relief for everybody. Okay. If I didn't even start up, out on a level 5,000 the way that these women did. My sex drive has always been manageable or my sex drive has been in line with whatever society's expectations are. And now I'm having this dip. Well, if they experienced it too, that must mean that it's not just about people who are prudish, people who are not freaky enough or willing enough or interesting enough or people who are in the wrong relationships. That actually gave me an aha too because you were talking about that like you get into a new relationship and you have that spike in libido and the spike in

higher. You might immediately want to say, oh, I guess it was my other partner. But wherever you go, there you are. So once again, you're in this new relationship. Your body is like amazing. We really want this. This is great for our survival. Let's incentivize, you know, Caitlin or Shannon in this case, to stay in this connection. So we're going to pump you full of chemicals that we weren't giving you before to give you this high. Then once you get off that roller coaster and you're back to that, you know, normality level, your levels might drop back to the way they were in your previous relationship. And then what are you going to do?

Find out of another partner and go with that whole cycle again? Or then are you then going to actually address what the genuine issue is? What are the deficiencies? What are the medical causes, the traumatic causes? And start from that point on. So I would just be aware of thinking that it's partner dependent and then looking at the fact that in a new relationship, you no longer feel this way as proof that it was your partner who was the problem.

That's really helpful. And there's so many DMs and questions that came in for you. when I posted that I was having you on. And I'm sure we've answered a lot of them, but this one was interesting because you said something earlier about feeling safe in a relationship. And I think this person has a question about that because they said,

is it common for people to lose sex drive when in a safe relationship? It worries me that I'm not supposed to be with him and wondering if that's normal. Yeah, Esther Perel, Esther. I always miss pronounce her name. It's like Astaire, not Esther. Well, then I pronounce it wrong.

But Astaire Perel. Right. I actually met somebody who knew her very well. And they said it. And I was like, I think that this person knows. They spent like every day together for a year. I think that they're on to something. But she's so great, she's not going to correct us.

That's like how much of an expert on connection that she is because that's not a detail. But Esther Perel talks about this, you know, that in order for love to grow, you need companionship, you need safety. You need like, when you think about that Venn diagram, the closer that we feel to somebody, the more, I mean, look, I'm making a heart right now, right? But desire requires the opposite. It requires space. It requires distance.

It requires the unknown. So safety can absolutely be a turnoff. But the good news is that once you identify that, you're like, oh, great. It's not that it's not you. I love every part of our relationship. But I do feel like I need a little bit of risk. I mean, what makes sex fun sometimes is the risk and reward element. And I actually did like a really big deep dive into this theory that I have.

I'm not really ready with it yet. but thinking about erotic ambiguity as being so important. And erotic ambiguity is that space between yes and no between sexual partners. When we actually don't know whether or not this is going to go anywhere or this is just sexual tension that's going to live and sit unanswered. And when we're in long-term relationships, there is no erotic ambiguity anymore. Like I know if I make an advance on you more than likely you're going to be willing. And if you're not, it's because you're tired.

It's not because, you know, I'm not sure about our attraction level. So you can manufacture that, which is the really great thing. If you're aware that that is what your pain point is, try doing more adventurous things together, try going on more dangerous dates, do new and novel things, and be aware of what the new and novel has to be because it's more useful, I think, to try a new sex act in your same bedroom. than to get a hotel and have the same sex in a different place. It might be more useful to go to a bed and breakfast where you think other people can hear you than to go to somewhere remote or send the kids away for the weekend and have the house to yourself.

So be aware of what the new thing has to be because I think about this when it comes to dates. People are like, oh, we should go out for dinner. And you're like, so you're just going to sit across from each other and talk about bills while someone else served you, the food. What's so different about that environment, the only new stimulant that you have is like new food to bond off of. That doesn't sound like a great precursor.

So be aware of what that new is and try to attack that to bring in the unknown between you guys and keep the known and that safetyness where it matters most and just be aware that in this area you have to work a little bit harder to create an X factor.

That's such good advice because she already has like the problem. in front of her. She knows what it is. And you just gave perfect advice. Like I, I know that I get that way sometimes in relationships where I'm like, oh, I feel safe. And sometimes I feel like I want to feel safe. And other times I'm like, is this boring? Am I getting, but that's really good advice is like a simple thing is thinking about what dates you're going on, what you're doing, why you're feeling safe and change something about it. Caitlin, I've just been getting into role playing like recently. And it's, I know it is because it's so silly. But I actually have.

had a male sex expert who I'm going to mention to you and his name is Alex Grendy. I just love him. I think he's so smart. I think your audience really enjoy him. It's really fascinating about him because he's so smart and knowledgeable. And he's a male sex coach. So he works with men, has a ton of insight on them. But if you go on his social media profile, he has like no followers. And that is because men won't follow him because they don't want to admit that they're getting help. They don't, right? Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But he's very successful, very awesome. But he was telling me about role playing and how much he loved it and how much fun it was. And it was of weird, but I guess hearing a straight man give that permission made me feel like, oh, I could try

this. It's not going to feel lame. But it does because I require erotic ambiguity. So even in role playing when we do it or attempted it, I'm like, if you don't sell me, it's not going down. Like we're not role playing to have sex. We're role playing to see where this goes. So if you don't really like bring it as the Amazon delivery guy, if I wouldn't have sex with you in real life, it's done. You know what I mean? So I need. I need. that that's so interesting because years ago somebody had brought up role playing on my podcast and again kind of the similar way I made fun of my own sexuality and laughed about it because I was uncomfortable I made somebody feel uncomfortable for them role playing and I kind of yucked their yum and so I had

emily morse on my podcast to talk about role playing and I got inspired and then I tried it and I was like that was actually really fun and so it shifted my whole perspective and now I'm so open to it tell me tell me your role very quickly what was your guys seen but that was the whole thing is my whole problem was i'm gonna laugh and be silly so we we put that into it where i was like i was like a silly like couldn't pay attention kind of girl like i just like added that in because i'm like i'm gonna laugh i'm gonna think this is funny so i was just like well i might as well embrace that and then of course it turned serious and it turned into something yeah i was like oh i was just being like insecure obviously yeah and it's like don't get me wrong i think if we all again sort of

normalized these changes that can feel like failures and so when you have to try to be someone else to get those feelings people are like oh that's a failure that must mean you guys aren't excited by each other right exactly and it's just a literal like fact of life it's a detail of connection a beautiful detail of connection. And we could talk about all of the benefits to getting over that insecurity, to getting over that risk and reward, that feeling of danger, that casino effect, that you get a new relationship. There's incredible amounts of benefits that we should really lean into. But yeah, one of the downsides is that there is less unknown, which sometimes you have to

manually put that in and pretend that you're somebody else. So leave us alone. Yeah, exactly. Don't knock until you try it. Yeah, well, that was my, I had to give that advice to. myself because I was like knocking it and I didn't try it. My last question is, well, it's not for me. Somebody said, how do you know if you're a sex addict or just have a high libido? And what do you do if you have a high libido, but your partner has a low one? I would say both of these are

questions that are best answered with a medical professional. And I think a way that I would think about sex addiction is if I feel like in my cycle, I have the drive to have sex. I, in gauge in sex. And then afterwards, I experience shame and I also experience a degradation of other priorities. If you're in that flow, like, oh, the things that matter to me, my relationships, my work, my health, time with my kids, my, if I'm seeing, you know, my other priorities degrade because of this compulsion, and even though I acknowledge that it's degrading, I still feel that need that triggered, that circle goes back again, I would then say that, okay, this is something that even if it's not medical issue or this is something that bothers me that I want help on.

Yeah. So I think if you get to that place, it's good to go and ask for help. Differing libidos is just a very normal, active relationships. And that's not even libido's. You're going to be a different financial places at different times. You're going to have different priorities. Some people are going to be in the achievement portion of their journey. And some people are in the attachment portion of their journey. And that's a we. That's also hard to get on the same page within a long-term relationship because I may have dreams of doing some things for myself and you might be going through a phase where you really want to be close. And then when I finally

want to be close, you now have an individual achievement goal. So you're just going to go through different coils, different times. And if anything, look at the times that you're lined up as like, this is the lottery. Like what? We just hit the sevens all at the same time. Like that's rare. That's amazing. When it's not there, there's sometimes minor disparities that you can manage or figure out if it feels bigger than that there are medical interventions as a matter of fact it's also important because one person might go get a medical intervention for their low libido and then that spikes their libido so high that the other partner whose libido was partner was partner dependent became very low because they taught their body this is how they relate to this

person they may go through a shock of like well how do I interact with this individual even if they're the ones who encourage them to get medical attention so and that person mean to go and figure out their situation too. So I think you don't feel like, I don't want people to feel like this is out of my hands. The same way that you're like, oh, my God, my liver's acting up. You're like, well, I guess that's my new reality. You're like, I think there might be another way, right? So there's options. Explore that other way, yeah, before you throw in the towel or throw away a perfectly good relationship. Yeah. Okay. I lied. This is my last question. And it could be short and sweet. it could be whatever you want as a sex expert how does one have the best orgasm that they could

possibly have i think not not asking for a friend stimulation of multiple erogenous zones at once really i think that that gives you know those like head massagers that are like claws yep so i've been playing with those during sex and that just brings something new it's just it's just stimulating different parts of your body simultaneously yeah Yeah, it just gives you, and I don't want to say better or worse, because it's not to say that. I get into this debate a lot with people who experience orgasms from penetration alone and those who don't, and people who experience from penetration alone are like, I just feel so sad because they'll never really know the full body orgasm.

I was like, show me the scale that tells me that your experience is greater or more euphoric than the other persons. Maybe your clitoral orgasms are subpar compared to theirs and that their clitoral orgasm is, similar or greater than you're we just don't know so i don't like to say like what's a better orgasm it's just like new feelings right it's almost like can you tell me what's better sushi or pizza you're like well it depends on the spot depends on the day like i've had really great pizza and really great sushi i love all of your analogies they all like make it really easy for me to like it helps me understand it better because i'm like wow that is such a good point i just appreciate all of your

insight and you obviously are an expert. So I, you were the first person I thought of to have on for this. Oh my gosh. I'm so flattered. I appreciate you so much. You always help me and obviously my listeners. And thank you for helping me navigate that whole conversation. The last person I just want to say before we go is Dr. Jolene Brighton. If you feel desired to have more competition in this topic, she is an MD. She specializes in hormones and she works to patients directly. And I know that she could provide like, oh, well, if people are really wanting to ask more the medical side of it. I'm not an expert on that by any capacity. I am interested. But yeah, she's a great person to chat with. Mind you, I don't want anyone to like wait for the

podcast to give you a magical answer to a question that's this important. If you're asking the question, please go ask a doctor. But if you are curious, and I think it's also good to be informed when you go to go see doctors, that could be somebody who could help your audience just get a little bit more information to arm them for that next important personal conversation. yeah you could never be like too knowledgeable about something like there's always more information for us to learn so I just appreciate you so much thank you so much for doing this with me thank you for having me I'm Caitlin Bristow your session is now ending and if I'm being honest I wouldn't mind a rating and review

Thank you.