Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Vienna Pharaon, LMFT

Episode Date: December 25, 2018

This week Kaitlyn sits down with Marriage and Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon to talk about establishing boundaries in relationships, how to practice self love, and answer questions from listeners like you! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So whether it's your first time experiencing Pride and Prejudice or you've read it a million times, you're going to fall absolutely in love all over again. So go listen to Pride and Prejudice now at audible.ca slash Jane Austen. Get ready for lots of laughs, tabby topics, unfiltered advice, and wine. Lots of wine. Get ready to shake things up. Here's Caitlin. Hey, welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow.

In New York today with Vienna Faron, licensed marriage and family therapist. I love going to my therapist, let me just say. I think everyone should do it. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. I feel like people are going to benefit from today. We're going to talk about boundaries, communication, relationships, everything. So thank you for being, well, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me in your home. Of course. Thanks for being here. Yeah, and you have a perfect setup for me because you're your husband, right? Fiance. Fiance. Almost. Okay, almost.

Fiancee has a podcast. Yeah. Which is, is it about relationships? It's called man talks, but yeah, he talks a lot about men's work and relationships. Okay, amazing. Huge range. Well, this is a terrible. audience to promote your husband fiancee's podcast because it's basically all women well

you learn a lot about men oh so yeah it could actually actually be pretty interesting might be a new podcast for me i love to learn a lot about men yeah i love to learn how those brains function um yeah so we came to your seminar on wednesday and rachel and i who rachel's in the in the house too in a house um and we learned so much we just i didn't even want to to go to the bathroom because I didn't want to miss a thing that you guys were saying. Just soak it all up. Just soak it all up. I was taking notes.

I just think it's so important to like have these conversations and I thought with the holidays coming up, this is going to air on Christmas Day. So I thought we would start with talking about like boundaries around the holidays with family because I have a great relationship with my whole family. But still there are things, you know, like it's family. You know, you go around two days later. You're like, but I just wanted you to touch on. the boundary talk that you did on Wednesday.

Yeah, sure. So it is something that we've been talking a lot about where a lot of the people who are doing so much work on themselves and are trying to be aligned and centered and grounded in their work and they walk back into their childhood home, let's say, or just the home where energy is from their parents or siblings or aunts or uncles or whomever. And all of a sudden, all of the tools just go right out the window.

Right. And so we're talking about how you like walk through the door and then all of a sudden you feel like you're collapsing in on yourself. Yes. And so setting boundaries ahead of time is so important so that you know how to maintain your stability, your centeredness while you're there. There's a lot of dysfunction and there can be a lot of toxicity and family systems. Right.

We have a lot of generations who might not be doing the same type of work that we're doing. Right. And so there's a limitation. or their capacity only goes so far. And it's so hard to stay committed and aligned to yourself in that space. So, you know, going into it knowing, you know, this is how many days I want to stay. Or if someone starts to talk about this topic, this is how I redirect it. Or, hey, if my relationship is actually that dysfunctional or toxic, maybe I actually don't go at all.

Right. You know, I've been hearing a lot of people who have been saying that they're not actually leaving. And that's a big boundary. that they're setting for themselves. Yeah, because I think a lot of people feel like they have to go see family and they're not thinking about their self first and what's good for them. And you were talking about this at the seminar too about how saying no is okay. Yeah, that's right.

Most people have the story that because it's family, you are, you have to be there, right? This concept and this idea, this narrative of, you know, blood is more important than whatever, X, Y, Z. Yeah. And so there's a there's a heightened pressure that there's an expectation that you come back. There's an expectation that you stay for a certain amount of time. There's an expectation that you show up in a certain way. And that's really heavy even if it comes around once a year. Right. It's like we have so much buildup and then it comes around and then all of a sudden we have to like put all of these parts to the test and it's very easy to feel like you're getting trampled all over. That was something that you had brought up too was people feeling the need to. always have someone to bring home for the holidays and that relationship and the you know the aunt or the uncle always saying something like well why aren't you married yet or where is it and and everybody thinking that they need a partner to feel complete uh i loved that you that you talked about that yeah right i mean it's this time of year is a time of year where so many people want to have partnership

and it's not everyone like a lot of people are really grounded and centered in their singleness and feel good about it. But a lot of times other people are not grounded and centered in another person's singleness, right? Because it might be reflecting something back to them that is their insecurity or their fear. So a lot of times people also lacking mindfulness and self-awareness will make comments that are actually quite cutting and, you know, just invalidating, even if you feel okay about where you are in your life. And so it's really easy to walk back into that space and have people make comments and all of a sudden you're in this disempowered space thinking, about why am I single and what is actually wrong with me?

And we then fuel this story that being single is bad. Right. You know, when it's when it's not. It's not bad. It's actually a glorious thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's time for you and to explore yourself and get to know who you are and learn from the past.

And I actually think it's so important to be single and to be alone and to go have family time to yourself. And you said something and I can't remember what it was, but like how, how, how, can people who are out there feeling that way go into into that conversation with family if that is something they're feeling insecure about? Sometimes you can name it. You know, sometimes you can actually be really direct about it and say, hey, please don't bring this up or like this is. This is where the boundary is. It actually hurts me when you say this. It feels really insensitive. And so if you can keep this topic off the table, that would be great. I was, I was on a different podcast talking about

like knowing your audience as being something that's really important because with some people you can actually say that yeah with others they're going to haggle you and be like oh no oh really you know and then they feel sorry for you and you're like or they're just insulting you know like or they're just mocking you right so it's like knowing who you can actually say hey this doesn't feel good for me maybe there's a parent maybe there's a sibling but having an ally in that space is really important and sometimes when you're in a when you are in a really healthy partnership I think that that person tends to be your ally in that space. So you can look to your partner and whatever, you have in, you read each other's eyes or underneath the table, somebody grabs the leg and you sort of feel aligned with that person.

And so when you don't have that, making sure that you have somebody else in that space who can be your ally is really, really good. But there are going to be people who can't receive the boundary. They're going to be people who walk all over it. They're going to be people who mock you or insult you anyway. And the prediction and the anticipation of that I think is really important. to know, hey, I'm going to walk into, you know, my aunt's home and this cousin or this cousin's husband or, you know, this person here is probably going to say something because I've experienced that before. And if I've experienced that before, I can set my system up to receive it and know

how I'm going to respond to it. Maybe I will say something. Maybe I'll just redirect it and go to some surface level conversation that just protects my energy. Yeah. You had a quote about boundaries. What was that quote read it to us and i'm going to make you repeat it after you read it just so it sinks in yes the only people who get upset when you set boundaries are those who benefited from you having none say it again the only people who get upset when you set boundaries are those who benefited from you having none it's so true when i think about when people set boundaries like when someone sets it with me i i totally get it right it's totally like it's honored it's respected it's it's Like there isn't an issue with someone's.

You probably appreciate it. You do. It's like, great. You're saying yes to your yes and no to your no and I get it. Yeah. Because I'm there too. And so when someone gets super insulted or they swing to some extreme, you know that it's because they've actually benefited from you not honoring that in the past.

Right. And whether it's so, it could be simple stuff like going out and you're like, well, but you're my wing woman. You know, it's like there's this expectation and it's now I'm doing something that honors me. but the impact on you is so threatening that you can't respect it or honor it or even understand it right that it actually is so insulting to their core right they feel hurt by you actually protecting yourself there's a difference between setting boundaries and then being constantly selfish yeah like obviously we have to honor ourselves but if it's your best friend's birthday

and you're tired you probably go to your best friend's birthday right right like there are certain sacrifices that we obviously make yeah but knowing where the line is is so important yeah one of the quotes. I don't know if you guys made it up, but it was, it's going to be like in my brain forever is that boundaries are sexy. Oh, yeah. You know? I think the guys were saying that, huh? The guys were saying that. Boundaries are sexy. Which is cool to hear from the men. Yes. Right, where they're like totally like respect. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like great. Yeah. It's knowing who you are and how you feel and and relaying that message to somebody on the other side and then being like, wow, good for you. It's it's confidence. It is. Yeah. And and they actually, they talk, we talk so much.

about how in a relationship, respect is such a key component, right? And so when people know, oh, I can sort of walk all over you or if I push it a little bit, you're going to go with it. Yep. Even though they might benefit from it in the moment, there's actually a systemic effect that happens, right? Because it's telling the other person that even if it's a no for you or if it's a yes for you, I can actually convince you otherwise. Right. And there is a lack of respect that gets attached to that space as you do that over and over and over again, right? So, like, having the boundary and honoring it and, like, sticking with it, right? There's a, there's that sense of, oh, this person is centered and grounded and they respect themselves enough. And they're not actually

sliding or shape shifting themselves in order to, to please me or to get me to want them or to get me to choose them. This is so powerful right now. Well, everything you're saying, that is so true. it's that whole like you teach people how to treat you and that's from like knowing who you are and how you treat yourself that's right when we have the courage and bravery to be like this is how I want to be treated I'm going to teach you that and and if it is something that you don't like it's actually okay yeah I'm okay with with you not wanting to be in this space with me then yeah but because so many of us are seeking validation and affirmation and we so desperately want to be chosen, we wind up loosening our boundaries. They become way more porous. And then we allow people

to do things in our space and with our energy that we're not actually okay with. Right. And so we actually move ourselves further and further and further away from our centered and grounded and empowered self. Right. It's an abandonment of the self, right? Wow. And it would probably benefit the relationship years and years down the road. You know, that's how you have a healthy relationship and stay with your communication and your respect for each other by setting those boundaries right off the get-go and sticking to them. That's right. And when people push it, it's so easy to see hierarchy get developed in the dynamic.

And there can be this power dynamic that comes to play. If I just do this, then I'll get this other person to push it. And when there's a sense of control, there's so much dysfunction that walks through the door in that. We do that even to ourselves. If I just have this weight or if I just have this body or if I just have this hair, I'll be happy. If I have this job, I'll be happy. Everybody's just searching for happiness and other things rather than looking within themselves. Yeah. And it seems simple. But for some reason, it's very challenging. It is challenging because we tend to leave ourselves at the, like at the first opportunity.

The simplicity of it is, is that we practice when it's a yes, we actually make it a yes. And when it's a no, it's a no. And that's actually a practical way of starting to do this, is what I'm about to say actually reflective of how I'm feeling. Right. Like it requires us to be so honest and so transparent with ourselves. And I think we've always learned to keep that in. And I think that's, I think that's shifting in like, I think today people are talking more about their feelings and, and how we feel. But I think, I don't know why that is, but we were always taught not to do that. Yeah, I mean, I think because I'm a marriage and family therapist, I talk a ton about family systems. Yeah. And so it can be something that was unique to your own experience growing up in

your own family system. So when I say family system, just the people who were in your home growing up just as a start point. And so most of us, we have a role in that system, right? In order for the system to function, we have some type of role. And so you've probably heard with like siblings, you know, know, first-born, middle-child, you know, the youngest. The baby. Yeah. And sort of some of the, like, classic examples of what happens when you're the middle child, do you get overlooked or do you get babyed or, you know?

And so when you actually start to slow down and pay attention to your experience in your family, you might think about and connect to some of the messages that you received, right? How was communication in your family? How was vulnerability? Yeah. Do we talk about things? Were you as a child meant to be seen but not heard? Right.

Like as the little one, were you someone who maybe did have opinions, but they kind of joked around because you were the baby? So like actually paying attention to what were the messages that I actually received? And some of them can be pretty explicit messages where someone says like you're not to speak. Yeah. And other ones might just be these observations. We call them implicit messages. It's essentially the sort of the.

quiet observation of what's going down. Maybe my parents didn't communicate about anything. They didn't talk about feelings. Maybe there were comments about, you know, boys don't cry and don't be, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And so these become the narratives that we take away from growing up in the system for so long. The past has shown you that that's your truth. And so you believe it. Right. So I personally already love this time of year. I mean, who doesn't? But the only thing that makes it even better is thinking about going back to Walt. Disney World. Walt Disney World is the perfect escape and now as an adult you can experience it in an entirely new way. From the excitement of after-hour events to cool drinking options, now's the time to

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some new memories. There are so many cool attractions and characters that bring your childhood to life and new experiences that you can appreciate even more as an adult. Enjoy classic attractions loved as a child like Space Mountain and Magic Kingdom and test track at Epcot. Personally, I'm a sucker for the classic. So, you know, you can find me at the Peter Pan ride a few dozen times. I have a question for you. So, like, I think about my family and growing up, but I always, like, I want to thank them now, like, for being like, well, they were so open with their feelings, and we were

all so vulnerable, and we'd have family meetings about feelings, and we would talk about, like, if we had an argument, we would dive into why. and have closure from it. Like, I feel like we had really healthy communication in my house, which in my relationships now, I'm all about communication. I need communication and I want. And I think that is a struggle for guys.

But anyways, that's not my question. I was just kind of having a little humble brag moment. I don't know about how great my family. Yeah, you're giving it up to your family. It feels good, though, right? Like, it actually where you can send some gratitude and appreciation because not there aren't, not everybody has that experience. right. Not everybody has that. And my family, my parents are divorced and they divorced when I was

kind of like later in life. Like I was 17, I think, which is kind of later in life for a family to get, or for parents to get divorced. But I think my parents always seemed like really had a healthy relationship. And like, obviously I'm not, I can't dive into their, tell their story. But I always saw a healthy example of love. But the thing is, I saw them fall out of love. But the thing is, I saw them fall out of love. And they were more like, oh, like they went their separate ways and they're so happily remarried. And we're all one big family now. But I have in my brain now, I go into every relationship thinking that person is going to fall out of love with me. And every relationship, I'm like, see, it happened.

That's what happened. And that's my truth because that's what happens. Sure. How do I switch my mindset? Like, how do I work on that for myself to not enter my next relationship thinking that that person's going to fall out of love? with me. You probably heard on Wednesday when we were talking a little bit about that confirmation bias where we have these experiences that are that are wounding for us. And so even though you're saying, okay, they went through a divorce and they did a really good job of splitting and showing

that this doesn't have to be this awful, nasty, terrible thing. And then you can actually love again. And so you did actually receive a good, grounded, empowered message there. But it doesn't mean that the wound isn't there for you, right? That there was something that did deeply impact you when you went through that divorce that set you up to have this story and this narrative that relationships are going to end or someone is always going to leave or love will will eventually be lost. And maybe it's the latter one that that resonates the most. And I think part of it is we have to choose to write a new story. We have to choose to say, this is really, scary and intimidating for me and it feels really overwhelming and I'm not sure that I actually

believe it, but I want to believe that love is something that can ebb and flow, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be lost and that I'm this person who is always going to have a partner who loves me for a chunk of time and then and then leaves me. And so we start to bring that story forward because if we don't do that and we don't dig in and dive into some of this wound work. It's really easy for a part of us to like our subconscious to start playing around with with our with our relationships. Maybe we start to manipulate things. Maybe we start to sabotage. Right. Like we start to do these things and we might not even realize that we're doing them but we're pressing somebody else's buttons and and finally classic Caitlin moves right there.

Yeah. Right. And listen it's not there can be many other reasons why a relationship ends. But when if there is a if there is a bias that we are actually trying to confirm, then there can be parts of us that like jump into the driver's seat, get their sticky hands on the wheel and start veering us off to the side. And all of a sudden, we're doing these things that feel like slightly outside of us. We're like, oh my gosh, why did I do that? Or why did I say that? Or what's going on? Like, I don't know. Like I don't normally have these types of emotions. And like it's sort of, it does become way bigger than us. And we don't really understand. Yeah. It's stronger than us. And then all of a sudden we're creating dysfunction within the relationship. Maybe they are too,

and we're getting further and further and further apart. And so sometimes that can be the extension of me needing to confirm that love ends. Love is going to leave. And how am I going to make sure that it leaves? Yeah. That is so, whoa, you just cut to the core of me there. Like that is what I do. I think sometimes I like self-sabotage. And because that's, that's going to be the narrative of the story. It's going to end. So I might as well push it in that direction. so that I'm not like so that I was right almost and I do that where I because I think I have I have I have confidence I have self love I do think I set boundaries and you know there's that whole honeymoon phase thing for me where I'm like the honeymoon phase is like as soon as it ends

that's when I think they're falling out of love with me but really it's just like the next deeper level of love but in my head I tell myself well this is where you know it starts to go downhill And then that's when I start sabotaging and telling myself, telling myself something false. Yeah, right. It's really easy when we move from honeymoon into an integrated love to start to think that, oh, wait, something's leaving. Yeah. When, in fact, it's actually deepening and strengthening. It's just, it's changing.

But sometimes change feels really intimidating and it's scary. And we feel like, wait, these butterfl- Yeah. Right. And I'm not good with change. And so, okay, like, how do I avoid this or how do I shut this? down and integrated love is is really different it's it really is different because we start to see like oh you're not perfect you know like oh this isn't perfect right and all like all of the growing edges

and flaws and this and that they start to rise to the surface and there's a there's a question at that moment of am i choosing this right am i choosing this and we get really scared that somebody's not going to choose it it's not just the fun in the games and the adventure and the spontaneity and the you know amazing sex at the beginning you know whatever whatever it is is for people right right it's it's it's all of a sudden we have to do hard things and we have to have hard conversations and that can feel incredibly intimidating and so integrated love can be so confronting for us yeah where we think oh gosh like it's just not fun anymore right and it's actually very different than that the reframe is important yeah i was talking about like in my last podcast about

showing up every day for yourself and having that self-love and i love the quote that you posted, and it said, how do you practice self-love? And it's by exploring self-hate. People are so afraid to dive into the self-hate and understand it. They'll point fingers at themselves and say, this is what I don't like it. But they don't explore it and understand it and practice the self-love through that. They just guilt, blame, shame, all of that, and then try and change. Like, they don't explore it. That answer to that is so important because I think so many people have a question around what does self-love actually look like. And, like, great, in theory, I think I kind of get it, but in practice, what does it actually mean?

And I think I wrote a caption to that. I was like, you know, bubble baths and, you know, getting a massage and being out in nature and all of those things are incredible and they're wonderful and we need that and they're restorative for us. And really the only way for us to get truly to the core of self-love is by exploring self-hate. and self-hate is what the things that we reject the things that we ignore the things that we want to disown about ourselves our fears or insecurities all of that that lies in the shadow i talk a lot about like the shadow and moving things into the light and that that practice of what's in the

dark what are the things that i just can't see in the pitch black essentially and if i start to shine a light on that how do i start moving out the things that i don't like about myself right It might be things that are about our physical appearance. Maybe it's something that we've done to someone else where we're carrying shame or guilt or embarrassment, but we don't ever want to own up to, oh, gosh, I did this really terrible thing, but I'm going to throw it in my shadow. And so the only way for us to love ourselves truly in the most integrated way is by pulling out everything that we hate, everything that we disown, everything that we reject, and

starting to start with that we start to touch it and feel into it and experience it and see the humanness in all of that right and start to bring accountability and ownership forward and also compassion yeah right that part that's like okay sure i can own this yeah and i'm a human yeah like and i can i can see the gentle side of me that can grow from this and so when we start to do that work we can actually move ourselves towards self-love right we're not hating ourselves anymore it's not as intense the second you move it into the light it becomes less intense and so when we're doing that we also don't feel as strongly about hiding it from others because right when you think about when we're first getting into relationships we feel like we need

to hide all of the things that we think that the other person is going to hate yes right so when if we don't hate those things it's going to be a little bit easier but if we hate them too that makes it so much harder yeah right so So we have to hide. And they'll come to the light eventually. Yeah, it usually does. Uh-huh. So bringing that forward yourself and like doing that for yourself and for the other

person too. That's right. Sometimes it can happen in relationships, right? Like sometimes when you have a really beautiful partnership, you know, the other person can see something in you. And with their love and their compassion and understanding, they can name it with you. Yeah. And they can create some security and safety around that.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the other person. I think it's ours. But there is such relational healing that can happen when someone else can see a part of us that we want to reject and disown. And they're like, hey, girl. And I love you through it. Like, it's not, I'm okay. Like I love this. Don't, don't worry about this.

Yeah. That's, that takes a strong person to be able to do that too for somebody. But yeah, that's such a good point. I feel that also in relationships, I start to feel anxiety at that certain point. And I've realized that I have anxiety, which I didn't know. I don't feel like I had it my whole life, but maybe I did and I'm just acknowledging it now. How do you, I know a lot of people have reached out to me because I've been open about anxiety. Do you ever deal with people with anxiety and do you have any advice for people on the topic of anxiety?

Because a lot of people ask. Yeah, I mean, I think anything that's rising to the surface for us within our, like, emotional state, you know, whether it's anxiety, whether it's anger, whether it's depression, whether it's sadness, we have to name it. So good for you, right? Where you're finally like, huh, maybe I've had it all my life, but I just wasn't ever naming it. Because naming it actually gives us so much information. There's something about it that allows us to feel a little bit more in control because when you don't name it, it's just, oh gosh, I'm feeling all. Or I don't know what's inside of my chest or my stomach right now. And so naming whatever it is that we're experiencing is so important. And then it's feeling into it. It's like being with it and not seeing it as an enemy.

Anytime we're feeling anything, there's information there. Always I'm talking about like emotional reactivity as such powerful information for us. Right. So whether the emotional reactivity is anxiety, depression, anger, on and on and on. there's a flag that that gets put into the sand that asks us to pause and to slow down and to really be with it and understand what it's actually trying to tell us. Because there's a communication there, right? It's like it's telling us that something's wrong, that we're, that something is up, that

something needs our attention. Maybe we're feeling abandoned. Maybe we're feeling embarrassed. Maybe we're feeling ashamed. Maybe we're feeling overwhelmed, lonely. You know, fill in the blank. And so when we can move it. into that space right then we can start to um like touch it and feel it and be with it and love it

and give it the self-soothing that it that it needs now i'm not saying that that's the answer for everyone obviously there's there's a spectrum here and there's a range but i think as a start point for people it's pausing in that space and naming it and then seeing what the what's driving it remember it as a flag in the sand that's telling you that there's information that something's trying to communicate to you to tell you something that's really important because I don't know like when you think about your anxiety and if you think about it as a communication to you like that is telling you something right is it is it telling you some like something similar each time is it telling you something different right you know it's like there's a lot that can exploring it more than just

trying to avoid it and push it away that's right because that's what we do it's like it's something that feels really overwhelming to us or we have shame or embarrassment around it people don't like being angry don't be that angry person um anxiety Anything that's in the mental health realm, we tend to want to push away, right, because of the stigma that's attached to it. And so when we actually invite it in instead of rejecting it and disowning it, then we have a chance at doing something really beautiful with it. It's the same as the shadow stuff before. Totally. Taking responsibility for it and learning from it and understanding it better.

Yeah. Gosh, you were changing my life right now. Hey, guys, so the college football playoff semifinals are almost here this Saturday, December 29th. Both games will be back to back on ESPN. First up, at 4 p.m. Eastern, Clemson will face Notre Dame in the Goodyear Cotton Bowl classic. These two historic programs last played each other in 2015, with Clemson surviving with a two-point victory, and this year's matchup looks to be even more exciting. Next up, we have Alabama and Oklahoma playing in the Capital One Orange Bowl at 8 p.m. Eastern Time.

Alabama continues its success under coach Nick Sabin, entering the game ranked first overall, but not so fast because the Sooners have won their last three games against the Cruel. Crimson Tide. When it's all over Saturday, the winner of these two games will face each other in the national championship game presented by AT&T on Monday, January 7th, only on ESPN. The negotiables versus non-negotiables. Like, yeah, I'm like, I just wanted you to like dive deeper into that with like relationships or with, whether it's with a partner or a family member. I just wanted you to kind of expand on that. Yeah, I think the negotiables and non-negotiables are the non-negotiables are truly the hard no like I'm never I'm never going to be okay with

abuse I'm never going to be okay with manipulation I'm never going to be okay with you know and people can fill in the blank like maybe you know like I will not have someone who drinks I will not have someone who uses I will not you know like there are going to be um people who have very specific things generally where there are sometimes with the line it's really interesting because I think so many of us probably in our unenvolved state, like have this list of who the person is. Yes. Yes. And I remember when I was like probably like 10 years ago, right, like the list of this is what I wanted my partner to look like. Oh yeah. I think I have it written down. Yeah. Right. It's like, yeah. And you must have golden retriever. You and I can be partners. Yeah, there you go. There you go. I know. I walk in. I'm like, oh, I'm done. You're coming out with a relationship. You know, so I think it's so important to move beyond some of the, like, must be this height.

I want this hair color. Like, I actually, like, has to be an athlete, has to make this amount of money, has to this, has to that. My invitation is with some of those things to really explore the why, right? Like, what's the story that you attach to why someone needs to make a certain amount of money? What's the story that you attach to why someone needs to have a certain hair color, has to have a certain weight, that their body has to look a certain way, where they come from, what school they went to, how much value they put on education, right? All of these things to actually explore, like, what's the story that I'm attaching to it?

Because sometimes it comes from an empowered state, and sometimes it comes from a disempowered state. Sometimes it's coming from this space of insecurity, of fear, as opposed to, no, I feel really grounded in this decision that I want someone who, you know, went to this school because this is what I assigned to that and that matters to me. Versus, oh, I need someone who makes this amount of money and then you start to explore it and you're like, oh, well, that's because I've always been so threatened about losing money or not having enough because I grew up in a household where we were always, like, we didn't know if we were going to be able to, like, eat for the whole week.

And so you get into that space or my parents went through a divorce and my dad had money but my mom didn't and I never want to be like her and so I'm going to reject that and then I need to have my own money so you start to explore those things so that's my invitation to explore

some of the things that maybe you think are non-negotiables the true non-negotiables I think are anything that ever put us into an unsafe position so I mean it's just any type of abuse.

It's very easy. It can be easy to get caught in manipulative relationships. You know, a lot of people who are, you know, self-prescribed, they are very smart, intellectual people can't understand why emotionally they find themselves in certain. situations that they could never conceptually have found themselves. I was going to, that's, I was actually going to ask that question. Yeah, Rachel. Oh, sorry, I'm like calling you on.

But it is, it's like when you are in that manipulative relationship and you keep going back and you don't understand why because you do have self-worth and you do know you're better than that and you do know that you deserve more, what is it that? Well, on some level you don't, you know, like, and that's, it's hard to hear that and it is confronting, but on some level, there's, there's a disconnect from following through on what you're saying that you want to believe about yourself or what you believe is true, but there's still something that's holding you in that space. And whether it's, I think that this person will change, I think that if they love me enough or I'm good enough that they will, like there can be many different narratives that fuel that. there's there can also be this addiction to the chaos like there are so many disempowered themes that can come to play in that space that that keep us stuck in something that we know that if our friend was in it would be like yeah right but like when when you're in I mean I have so many

clients who are like oh my gosh if I like I know if my friend told me that her partner like treating them this way I would absolutely tell them that they get out of that you know And so we can speak it, but when we're in that space, it can feel, I mean, we just feel trapped. Yeah. And we feel so trapped in that space and we don't know how to get out. And then all of the fears. Then you almost get used to that feeling. And that becomes your normal.

Your new normal. Yeah. Even though on some level you know it's wrong. Yeah. It becomes the new normal. We on some level do believe that this is what we get. And we have to explore that. And we have to explore what it is that we might.

be addicted to. Whether it's, whether it's, uh, like we've been a part of a family system where there's always been chaos, let's say. I'm just trying to pull from things that I've, you know, I've had clients who have set or things that we've been able to uncover where it's like, oh my gosh, I just grew up in a family system where there was constant chaos. And so there's my subconscious part that keeps drawing me back into chaos because it's what it believes it is supposed to exist in. Yeah. Right. Or some people will say and come to, I am addicted to being right, which is a really interesting one, because when we're telling ourselves a story that we're not deserving or we're unlovable, to tell ourselves a story that that's not actually true means that we were lying to ourselves for a long time. Yeah, whoa, right? And so sometimes people would rather stay in the dysfunction, not consciously.

but would rather stay in the dysfunction because it is easier, right? There's less resistance there than there is in being able to look at yourself and say, holy shit, I was lying to myself for a couple of decades, telling myself that this is what I deserve. Yeah. I know. I mean, and again, there's just layer after layer after layer and so many different themes that can come up based on each person's individual experience and story. And I think it all goes back to being able to sit in the uncomfortable and explore. and explore it and understand why and acknowledging those things that you're maybe ashamed of

and that you don't want to be your truth and you don't want to acknowledge them. But just knowing you have to and knowing that that's going to benefit you and that being uncomfortable and being vulnerable with yourself and acknowledging these things are all going to be part of self-love and self-growth and making you a happier, better person. And that's what we're here to do. like just grow and be better and get better and learn more about ourselves and and that takes being brave enough to to acknowledge your insecurities and and being

vulnerable yeah perfectly said gosh I was like kind of hang out with you more often look at you you're feeling all empowered right now you're like that's it I do that's exactly it we'll be back with more off the vine with Caitlin Bristow Alexa isn't the only one with breaking news. Make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP News Minute. Happy holidays from all your friends at Podcast One.

Hey, it's Adam Carolla. This is Heather Dubrow from Heather Dubrow's world. Hey, Steve Offs from Steve Offs at show. Hey, this is Rob Riggle. And Sarah Tiana from Riggles Picks. This is Caitlin Bristow from Off the Vine. Hey, this is Keltie from The Lady Gang. Happy Holidays from Podcast One.

Now back to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. I don't know when the other podcast is going to come out if it's going to be after this one, but we said in it that 2019 is going to be the year of empowerment. And this year was a lot of cleansing and clarity and figuring things out and that looked really messy. But 2019 is going to be the year of empowerment. People have to understand that it's hard and we do it anyway. Yeah. I love the connector of it. and so much it's like it's hard and I'm going to do it yeah it's confronting and I'm going to do it

like you know we we often use but and I love replacing but with hand as yeah even in my hand I was like it's messy but and then I'm like no and right and I'm doing it moves us forward yeah right but disconnects us from something yeah so I think when you can if you can start to bring the and into it's like yeah this is difficult stuff and it's it demands a whole heck of a lot of bravery and courage and vulnerability and it does ask us to look at the things that we have been taught to avoid and ignore for so long and it's the only way yeah that's it right is like i've got news for you yeah like sorry but this is it you want a magic pill no this is what you got this is it you don't get to follow a five-step process from like l magazine yeah you know it's like

yeah that's not it right like you have to get your hands dirty and do this work with compassion Because that's, I think when I try to explore my, like, insecurities, I look at it with so much shame. And you said earlier to look at it with compassion. And I think we forget to do that with ourselves. Yeah. Wow. I'm going to ask you some questions from listeners because did I cut you off? Was that?

No, that's perfect. Okay. A lot of people have questions for you. I wish I could ask all of them to you. But we'll get to a few. What to do if your relationship is. is in a standstill. I want the ring first and he wants the house to be settled.

We've been together for almost five years and it's starting to feel like a roommate situation where we both aren't willing to budge on what we want. We obviously love each other very much. Maybe are just lacking some communication and guidance on how to work through tough things. I mean, the first thing that came to mind was just the relationship to resistance, right?

Both people want something and it seems like, like I would imagine that each of them assigns something of incredible meaning to what they want themselves I it sounded I don't know if it was her who wanted the ring I'm guessing it's like a is it a heterosexual relationship it says um did she say he her name's emily um and he yeah okay so she's assigning meaning to the ring my guess is he he's assigning meaning to the house or the apartment and there might be a really important story for both of them to understand about each other in that space maybe the house for him is I get to provide for you and I am winning at this and I am succeeding at this giving you a ring is maybe nice

great I get it and gosh I get to put a roof over your head yeah like this is me loving you yeah right maybe I'm just like, different lenses. Sure, right. It's like I'm just making up a story that could be. But I think it's really important that you, anybody who's listening to this where they feel like there's a standstill is that you actually sit down and get a clear understanding of what the other person is experiencing and what it is that they're attaching to what they say that they're prioritizing. And the resistance isn't great. You have to loosen the grip. I'm digging my heels in.

This is what I want. And we're not moving forward until you agree with me is essentially what's being said. And so when we can loosen that grip and actually take a really curious approach with that person, right? Generally speaking, hopefully if we have some type of healthy communication, we can uncover something there that's actually quite meaningful. Because everyone just wants to be understood. And they've come up with these stories of why these things mean something to do with their relationship. That's right. And if you just hear the other person and can understand why and just dig a little deeper

than just being like, well, it's a ring. I want a ring on my finger. Oh, I want the house. Yeah, that's a good way to look at. You just have to realize, like, we all assign different, like, meanings to everything, right? Based on our own experience. And so what is one thing for you is going to be different for me. And it doesn't mean that it's right or wrong.

It just means that it's different. And so right now, instead of telling each other that you're wrong for wanting to have, or you're wrong for wanting the ring, we have to move it away from wrong and right, have to move it towards understanding, connection. Okay, great, there's a little bit of conflict here. This could be an opportunity for us to have greater intimacy and connection and understanding.

I often say that conflict is the greatest gateway for intimacy and connection, right? We're so confronted by conflict, and it's like, we don't want to do it. I'm not going to budge. The stubborn part comes front and center. And when we can start to see a new story, that conflict, when we actually lean into it in a healthy and empowered way, conflict is going to tell you something. It's going to teach you something about yourself and your partner.

This is the beauty of it. It's so special. It's such a good way to look at it. Yeah. And it's scary because for most of us, conflict meant divorce or lots of screaming or fighting or throwing things or maybe it was manipulation. Maybe it was things being brushed under the rug and not spoken about. maybe there was passive aggressiveness. Like there's so many things that people are so used to when it comes to conflict.

So the story that conflict can be healthy and okay and good is definitely can be new. But I would love to invite your listeners to think about it that way. And instead of needing to protect what it is that you're attached to, try to understand what the other person's meaning, like, and belief system is. And then they'll want to understand you better if you try and understand them. Yeah. I mean, generally speaking, and if they don't, I mean, it also gives you information. Yeah, that's true. It's like a lot of times these hard conversations, they actually, they do tell you something. Yeah. Yeah. We're always getting information if you think about it constantly.

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or trade in your car check out true car today true cash offered not available in all areas this person wants to know what should someone that's never gone to therapy expect for a first appointment she's feeling a little nervous she has anxiety about going into it but clearly she's doing the right thing yeah so the first session is usually a whole lot of information download so most of the time in my first sessions people who come in will generally share what it is that's bringing them in and so it actually is a lot of them speaking to me that first session and I actually say this to them in that session I'll be like listen this is not normally what therapy is going to look like but today you are telling me everything and I'm processing it I've got it like just keep

keep giving it to me so honest yeah so it's not there there isn't a ton of, you know, like challenging questions or certainly I'll ask questions, but it's a lot of just like getting to know each other a little bit, building out that safety and the security in that room and also just getting what's, this is what's going on in my life right now. And then we'll tend to set some type of goal. Like this is why I'm here. This is where I'd like to see myself. But that's generally what you can expect for the first session. As you keep going, like For me, again, as a marriage and family therapist, usually my second session is the family of origin session where I create a genogram, which is essentially a family tree, just therapy style.

And we learn about parents and siblings and anybody who is in the home and traumas and wounding and pain and just, it's just a big, big dive into that space. But hopefully that eases some nerves for the first session. From my experience, like I was nervous going into my first session, and now I'm, I always say to people, I skip in there now. I can't wait to get in. And it's just so healing and it is exploring who you are. And you just get to know yourself better through therapy. Even if you don't feel like you have anything to go for, I'm still like, go.

Yeah. Go. And I'll say this, don't be afraid if it doesn't feel like a good fit to try somebody else. A lot of times people feel like, okay, well, I'm here. so now I'm staying and that's not it. It's like you are allowed to shop around. Yeah. You know, if it's a referral, I always say like, look, if you can find someone who's gone to someone, like that can feel that can put us at ease.

So, yeah, if it's not a good fit, great. Like, that's okay. Yeah. And just go on to the next. Thank you. Yeah. Right. And this person wants to know, what should I do if boyfriend of five years doesn't want to get married?

They're in their 50s and it's very important to her. it sounds like maybe the boyfriend is pretty clear with where he's at yeah and it doesn't sound like he's doing much budging and like what is the commitment to him is he like you know like yeah i i always wonder that too like when marriage is so important to one person and and not the other like is he is he really committed like what's going to change for you to be married yeah right i mean it's it's hard without you know more information i mean on the surface it sounds like here's somebody and i don't know, we don't know if he's ever been married before, if he has any children, if there's divorce. But it sounds like he's actually being really clear that marriage isn't something that

he's interested in, certainly exploring the why and understanding if there are fears, if it's coming from a disempowered place versus an empowered place of, hey, I actually don't believe in the institution or I have been married twice before. And I don't want to, I just don't see the reason doing it, but I would really like to be in a long-term committed partnership, right, or something like that. And so the person who sent in the question can also explore, like, the meaning and the attachment to marriage, right? What does it mean to me? Why is this so important to me? Because maybe in that space, that person might realize that they're putting more marbles in one cup than another. But again, I think, and it's hard to tell there's not a

ton of information there but what I will say because I'm sure this will resonate with some of your listeners is that sometimes someone is telling us exactly where they're at yeah and we convince ourselves that we're going to be able to change their mind and that we're going to be chosen at the end of this and that we're going to stick it out and this can be that abandonment of the self that we were talking about before where we keep sort of prolonging it or getting attached to potential like I'm sure in the future this person is going to be that you know and I would just be wary of that you know be aware what somebody is giving you right now is something is what you need to listen to yeah I do believe that people have the capacity to change I just don't believe

in committing to potential right it's like who's in front of me right now right period yeah and it doesn't have to be rigid or harsh it's just that so many of us stay and stay and stay with this hope of someone changing, someone doing it differently. Well, if I show this person this, then this is what's going to happen. And that story just gets us further and further away from ourselves and the grounded and empowered relationship that we're craving. Oh, man, this is going to land with my listeners. I know it. Good. This person said, I'd love for you to ask the therapist you'll be talking to. My dad is struggling with severe anxiety and depression and he's resisting treatment. I'm a therapist myself, so I definitely get that you can't force anyone to do

anything, especially mental health-wise, but it's something, but something's got to give eventually because he's getting much worse, and how can we get my dad to maybe agree to some form of treatment? I think that the quote-unquote treatment can be getting curious and maybe just in an intimate space talking to him, and that's not, like I don't, maybe this person has, but I think sometimes when we want to fix the quote unquote problem we see this like mental health issue as a problem the other person can feel our energy going into it saying like we have to do something about this we have to do something about this and most of the time people will resist like people will resist that if they don't feel understood no one there's this great john gotman

quote that says, understanding must proceed advice. Love that. Because so many of us are like, you have to do this, dad, or like, hey, like, you need to go do this or like that over there. And people will reject that. I don't know if you've ever had that experience. I certainly have when it's like, you don't even, you don't even know. Like step out. Right. Or you're like, wait a second. You're not actually like, you don't know what's happening in my experience. And so again, without knowing much more information, I think where I would start is move. away from treatment move away from fixing the problem solving the problem seeing it as a problem and move towards understanding move towards compassion share the impact that your dad's depression and

anxiety is having on you careful with it right like there there does need to be a boundary because sometimes that can that can make the person feel even worse but i think from from a really centered place to be like you know i feel so sad when i see you like this and it gets i feel like it gets in the way of our relationship or I feel disconnected from you and all I want is to be connected to you like I care so much of you know like and so moving into that space can generally get us a little bit closer than just fixing it solving it trying to teach him what he needs to do also as a therapist I totally get it because a lot of times family members are like okay therapist like thanks a you know like they want to like they're like I'm not your patient you know I'm not your

client yeah right so you have to be really careful about that I've heard that one yeah yeah oh my gosh yeah this person wants to know um my parents marriage is breaking how do you support both parties without picking sides especially when only one parent is open with the kids about the dissolving marriage and the other tries to act like everything is fine yeah that's a tough one right when some when another part of the system is in their chaos right and what we're trying to do is really be grounded and centered and and loyal to both it's it's tricky um i'm not sure that there's honestly that great of an answer to it just because they're in well at least one part is in the dysfunction of it where it's like I'm closed off everything's fine I'm pretending like I don't

need anything and that I'm okay um I mean unless they are but I guess we're going off of the assumption that they're both in their chaos and so I think it's meeting each of them where they're at right if the one is saying hey I'm okay well we'll meet them there and just say well I'm I'm here for you if you ever need to talk about anything or I want to support you or I love you and it's okay to share you don't need to necessarily be quote unquote strong for me because a lot of times parents think that they have to hide things so that the kids even if we're adult kids that they're protecting us and sometimes it's actually more powerful to within reason share hey like I'm struggling with this or I'm feeling that another thing is to is to actually check your own judgments right

maybe you do feel more loyal to one. Maybe you do feel more aligned with one, right? So that can be something, if you can bring that forward into the light and name it, that can help you know how to show up and challenge the part of yourself that's resisting or angry at or frustrated with or judging one of your parents, right? Sometimes relationships dissolve because both parties are wanting that. And sometimes relationships dissolve because someone, has done something right um that we're not cool with yeah and so if if that's the if the latter part is

the case right you have to check how you're feeling about how the ending happened yeah um and then i'm gonna end it with this one because i feel like a lot of girls women that listen and we'll reach talk about ghosting yes the whole ghosting thing of like guys just like you know and she's so i feel like this is going to be for a lot of the listeners out there um i was talking to a guy and everything was going great. We hung out three days in a row, but he couldn't get hard, even though he didn't really have a problem the night before. We still hung out after, but the next day, he kind of ghosted me. I really liked him, and I'm wondering what I should do. And if I should move on or reach out to him, I can explain more if you need. Yeah. Oh, my heart, like, I totally feel

that one. Yeah. Again, we're having to make tons of assumptions here. Yeah. But, I think oftentimes with men, there can be so much shame and embarrassment when something like that happens. Performance is huge, right? I hear this over and over and over again. And so when there's an imperfection or flaw in performance, that can feel really crippling for a man. And so my guess is in the ghosting, there's the sort of crawling away.

from oh my gosh that happened and the insecurities are probably flooding in that's that's it's a common one again without him you know chiming in here but um my guess would be that there might be some shame or embarrassment that's in the driver seat and there might be some fear that you're not going to want to see him again or be with him or you know maybe he thinks that you're going to take it personally and he feels awful about that right that you're telling you're you know that you're telling your friends you know and so it's if you do feel strongly and it sounded like you you have really been enjoying this person um in the dynamic yeah it can be okay to reach out and to just say like I'd really love to see you again yeah you don't have to acknowledge that right

you don't have to and I wouldn't yeah in a text message yeah um like certainly and I imagine if the relationship were to develop yeah you would right um but in a text message maybe just saying like hey, I loved, like, I loved seeing you last time. I'd love to see you again, like, really giving, like, language that can support and uplift that person. And it's, it's sort of this generous offering to say, like, I'm going to give you what it is that I think you need, what I hope you need, in order to move you out of anxiety and fear and move you back into a space of security and safety to know that what happened doesn't

make me not want to be around you or not like you. It might actually bring them closer. It could. Now, listen, sometimes it's totally. stifling for a person and they will just disappear off the face of the earth. And so it's a possibility that that happens. But I really love the idea of knowing and understanding that someone might be confronted with shame and insecurity and fear and embarrassment and then saying, you know what, if there's

like one thing that I can do in this world is to give someone a sense of security when I can imagine that they might be feeling insecure and sort of like unsexual. safe with themselves. So, yeah, that would be my... Well, then I'm just going to ask a question about ghosting. What is your advice to girls who get ghosted? Because me, I'm just like, without the, yeah, without the sexual factor, with just guys who will, like, go on dates, girls think it's going great. Yeah. And then they're just gone. And I know, like, what is that? I mean, it happened, it happened so often. I obviously here in New York, like in the dating world in New York City. Yeah. I'm sure maybe similar to anywhere that everybody else is where they're listening. But

or big cities at least and oftentimes we talk a lot about the like the paradox of choice right is that we're inundated with so many people you can go on a new date the next day in the same night yeah I mean you can go on four in the same night right and and so people really forget that there is another human being on the other side of that device I hate ghosting yeah I think even if you know that this is not something that you want to pursue just that one ounce of respect one sentence that just says nice meeting you this doesn't feel like a fit for me best to you is is it right like we're all humans get that like listen to this and take this in we're all humans yeah that's not that hard to do yeah it isn't that difficult to do and to remind yourself that there's a human being who

has feelings and an experience on the other side of that device and doing that is a very important thing to do now some people just don't want to be confronted with it so i've heard people say well like why do i owe it to them it's like well it's not it's it's a best thing doing something that is kind right like do we have to debate about like do you owe this to them it's like it becomes the principle it's about leading with kindness and compassion and we know that 15 words and a text message takes most of us like 3.2 seconds to type so we probably can do that and figure it out and squeeze it in yeah but I think you know for people to not take it personally that it's not a reflection of you yeah it really isn't like this is a very clear one that

is strictly a reflection of that person. Yeah, exactly. It says everything about them and nothing about you. It does. And there's times where like, I think sometimes people overdo that saying where it's like, no,

no, like it might actually be about you sometimes. Right, right, right. And listen, there might be times where you're like, okay, hold on. Like, did I actually do something really like rude? Like,

because maybe I did and I have to check that. That's true. But I think a lot of times if you feel like, hey, that went great. And you're aware of yourself, then that's the extension of them.

Yeah, that's a good point. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for this. I could just, I mean, I feel like I get talking to people in my podcast all the time and I'm like, why do podcasts have to be only like an hour, like 45 minutes to an hour? I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm like, I'm befriending you. I'm going to like, don't be mad when I start texting you questions and when I get into another relationship. Totally. I know. I just recently was on a podcast and they were like, wait, can we actually do a part two? I was like, sure. Yeah, I'm all about part two. You need like a series of it. Yes. We'll do a part two, a follow up. Next time. Maybe I'll get in a

relationship, and then we can talk about staying healthy in that relationship. Yeah. Exciting. I like that. Oh, I'm going to be my best self. Yes. So good. And where can people find you?

Sure. On Instagram, you can find me at Mindful MFT. That's Marriage and Family Therapy. People are like, wait, what does that stand for? I didn't know. Do people curse on this podcast? Someone was like, I've always thought it was like mindful, mother fucking therapy. And I was like, I love that.

I'm into that. Yeah, I'm into that. I like that. We can go either way. And then if you're in New York, New York Couplescounseling.com for the full practice in Midtown, Manhattan. And Connor and I,

who you just met, we're doing a couples retreat in the Dominican Republic in April. And that's the best couples retreat.com. Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah. Great idea. So great. We just did one a few months ago,

and it was incredible. Oh, what a great idea. Oh, okay. Well, I'm really glad that people can go and find you in these places. And if you're in New York, or all right, your girl. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it and enjoyed it. So thank you. Thank you. I'm Caitlin Bristow. I'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Briscoe. Get new episodes every Tuesday exclusively on podcast1.com, the Podcast One app, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts.

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