Office Ladies - A Look Back on An Interview with Mike Schur

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

This week on Office Ladies 6.0, we take a look back on Jenna and Angela's interview with Mike Schur! Mike Schur wrote on the first four seasons of “The Office” and played Dwight’s mysterious cousin, Mose Schrute. Mike also worked on “Saturday Night Live” and created shows like “Parks and Recreation”, “Brooklyn Nine-Nine”, “The Good Place” and “Rutherford Falls”. Mike shares about a scene where Angela slapped him so hard he spun, Jenna and Mike talk about the difference between acting on a TV show vs a movie, and of course, Mike talks about how much he hated playing Mose. So take a trip down memory lane and enjoy the moments of a stringy beard man who works on America’s favorite beet farm. Check out Mike Schur’s Book, “How to Be Perfect: The Correct Answer to Every Moral Question”: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/How-to-Be-Perfect/Michael-Schur/9781982159313 Follow Mike on Twitter: @KenTremendous  Office Ladies Website - Submit a fan question: https://officeladies.com/submitaquestion Follow Us on Instagram: OfficeLadiesPod To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. I'm Jenna Fischer. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We were on The Office together. And we're best friends. And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch Podcast just for you. Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you. We're The Office ladies.

Hello everyone. Hi you guys. We are really excited about this week's episode. It's kind of special. It really is. We got to interview Mike Schur. You guys know he played Moe's on the show. He was also one of our original writers. We got to interview Mike Schur. You guys know he played Moe's on the show. He was also one of our original writers. We got to interview him and it was awesome. It was delicious. We loved it. We re-listened to it and we're like, this needs to be a whole episode. Yeah. We just had so much to talk with him about. But first, we're still going to give you fast facts. Always fast facts, guys. You know. Always fast facts. Oh my gosh. Jen, I feel like you're going to give you fast facts. Always fast facts, guys. You know. Always fast facts.

Oh my gosh. Jen, I feel like you're going to be in your eighties and you're going to be sitting in a corner mumbling like, fast facts, fast facts, fast facts. And they'll be like, what's grandma talking about? Oh, she used to do this thing called fast facts. Well, these are Mike's sure fast facts. Fast fact number one, Mike was on the writing staff from season one through season four. He wrote 10 episodes and here's what they were.

The Alliance, Office Olympics, Christmas Party, Valentine's Day. That was one of our hidden gems in our re-listen, branch closing, traveling salesmen, the return, the negotiation, the job, that's the one where Jim comes in and asks Pam on a date at the end. I know. And Dunder Mifflin infinity. You know, Mike told me the negotiation was his favorite Angela Martin episode. Oh, really? She's like getting titillated by hearing people recount the Jim and Roy scuffle.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. He said that was his favorite episode to write for my character. I felt like he just liked writing for your character a lot. Your character always had great moments in his episodes. They did. I loved it when Mike was assigned an episode.

Well Mike also wrote the accountants webisodes with Paul Lieberstein. He played Moe's in 13 episodes of the show starting in season two. He talks a lot about playing Moe's in our interview. It's very fun. It is. His love-hate relationship with Moe's. Well, here is fast fact number two. I'm going to talk to you about shows he's created.

I think you guys know the show that he started on SNL. He was there for six seasons. During his time on SNL, he produced The Weekend Update. Oh, yeah. From 2001. That's a big deal. That's a prestigious position. Yes.

He did it from 2001 to 2004. He, of course, was a writer on The Office until 2008. He then went on to co-create Parks and Rec, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and he created The Good Place and Rutherford Falls with our very own Ed Helms. Wow. Yeah. His resume is full of other shows that he's also produced on and written for. I have to give a shout out to one, Jenna, because I love this show.

Did you know that he co-produced The Comeback with Lisa Kudrow? And he wrote two episodes, and I loved that show. I loved it. I found that out about him in the first season of The Office, and I was like enamored with him. Like to me, that was like superstar status, that he wrote that just amazing satire. It makes me want to go back and rewatch it. I had forgotten that he worked on it.

And when I was looking up his credits, I was like, oh, I want to rewatch the comeback. Well, fast fact number three, Mike Schur wrote a book. It's called How to Be Perfect, The Correct Answer to Every Moral Question. Here is how he described it to us in an email. He said, it's a book about how hard it is to be a good person and how we can use ethics and moral philosophy to try not

to screw up all the time, but in a funny way, not like in a homework way. The basic idea was to explain all the stuff I learned for the good place without giving everyone a headache. You guys, when we did this interview with Mike, our copies of his book had not arrived yet, but we have them now. And this is a truly special book. I started reading it and I can't stop.

I'm like binging a book. Same. I love it. I couldn't put it down. I was reading it last night. This morning I was like, I want to read more. Like I woke up thinking about it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So Mike is such an amazing writer. We already know

that, but he takes this conversation of morality and he makes it funny and interesting and relatable. For example, there's a chapter titled, and by the way, all the chapter titles are hilarious, but here's one that cracked me up. There's a chapter titled, Do I have to return my shopping cart to the shopping cart rack thingy? It's all the way over there. Yes. And then basically what he does is he answers that question. And the answer is based on all of these ancient philosophers and, you know, ethics, morality, and moral compass. Yes. So listen, I think we should take a break. And when we come back, you get to listen to Mike Schur. And we get to find out so much about Moe's.

It's a treat, we promise. Mike Schur, welcome to be here. I'm a huge fan of you as people, first of all, first and foremost, second of all, you as actors, and then third of all, you as podcasters. This has been such a delight to watch you do this thing to celebrate this show that we all made together. I'm so happy to be here. It's a real honor. Oh, Mike, thank you so much. We love you.

We're so thrilled to have you here. And I know the fans are going to enjoy just hearing your voice. Jen and I both listened to you quite a bit before this. And we both found you really pleasing to listen to. Really? We like your voice quite a lot. You listened to me in what context? Other podcasts, interviews, podcasts. We do our research here on Office Ladies. Yeah. That's very nice of you to say because I've always found my own voice

to be slightly annoying, which I think maybe most people do. That you're like it's the phenomenon of hearing your voice played back to you. This is how old we are, is like on an answering machine message or something. You know you'd you'd be like uh is that what I sound like I always feel like I sound a little annoying and nasally but I'm glad to hear you say that. Well I felt that way about myself too and I sort of brushed it off like oh that's just everybody feels that way about their own voice but then we recently re-watched an episode where Michael is trying to get Jim to say something bad about Pam and he gets Jim to admit that Pam's voice is rather shrill sometimes. And I thought, oh, I guess maybe in the writer's room when forced to come up with something annoying about me, we settled on my shrill voice. So thank

you so much. Which writer hated your voice? I don't know. Mike, do you know? I'm very, very pleased to say that I think I was gone by the time that was written, so I do not have to answer for that crime. It wasn't you. Well played. It wasn't you.

Well, listen, we always like to ask people when they come on the podcast, how did they get their job on The Office? And we know that you did double duty. You were a writer, but then you were also a performer. But let's start with how did you get your job as a writer on the show? So I was writing at Saturday Night Live from 1998 to 2004. My then girlfriend, now wife of 16 years, had moved out to LA and permanently in

like 2002 and we were dating long distance. And in like 2003, it was like, all right, if this is ever going to really work, either she had to move back to New York or I had to leave and move to LA. And it made more sense for me to move to LA because there are more jobs there. So I gave my like years notice, uh, to Lauren Michaels and said I was leaving at the end of the year and got an agent for the first time in my life because I never needed one and I was like all right I'm moving and the first thing he told me was you know this guy Greg Daniels is adapting the British office for American television and I responded

what a terrible idea disaster do You shouldn't do this. No one should do this. Because I was a huge fan of the British show. This is such a classic story, right? I was a huge fan of the British show. I thought it was absolutely brilliant. I didn't think there was any way it would ever work in America, but it was like, well, you know,

beggars can't be choosers. Like I have to get a job out there. So I came to LA sometime in, I don't even remember like winter, I think like February on an off week at SNL. And I had a bunch of meetings and one of them was with Greg. So most of the meetings I had with producers were pretty standard hour long chats,

hey, here's our pilot, watch the pilot and let's talk about the show. And I dutifully tried to, you know, say nice things about whatever they were working on. And then I met with Greg and my meeting with Greg was two hours long, more than two hours long. And it was so different from every other meeting. It was, it was like intense and in depth and fascinating.

In the middle of the meeting, he said, I'm very sorry It was like intense and in-depth and fascinating. In the middle of the meeting, he said, I'm very sorry, but my back is acting up. Would you mind if I lied down? And I said, no. And so he lay on the floor on his back in front of me while I sat on his couch. So I think to an outside observer, it would look very much like we were in like Freudian

analysis where I was his therapist and he was like free associating. I think to an outside observer, it would look very much like we were in Freudian analysis where I was his therapist and he was free associating. But he just asked the most incisive questions, the most penetrating questions about the nature of storytelling and about the British show and why it worked and what he had to do to make it work here. And I left the meeting and I Texted on my like Motorola razor. I texted my agent and I said I

Don't know if that guy's gonna offer me a job but if he does I'm gonna take it because I think he's gonna teach me how to write and my agent Sends me that text like every four years back to me. He sends it back to me and says like you were right You were right. You're right, so Greg offered me the job and I happily took it and I thought this is obviously not going to work. It's a, it is a, it is a fool's errand to try to adapt this show for an American audience, but he's going to teach me how to write. And that's exactly what happened in that first season.

You know, the only full-time writers really were me, Mindy and BJ, because Lester Lewis, the late Lester Lewis and Paul E. Racine and Larry Wilmore were consultants. And Mindy and BJ and I had never written anything. We didn't have any idea what we were doing. And Greg basically taught a class. He taught like the true professor he is. He taught a class on how to write and it changed all of our lives forever.

So that's my office origin story. Wow. That is so good. Mike, I remember you guys that first season, there were so few of you and how close you all became because of that. Yeah, it was a tiny little, Greg used to call it a strike force. He was like, this is an elite strike force,

which I think was just him trying to boost our confidence because we had no idea what we were doing. But it was really, you know, it was a very, very small group of people who were working really, really hard on a very small number of episodes. We only wrote five scripts. Like, you know, we each wrote, we actually wrote,

we wrote six to make five. I'm not sure if you remember this, but we wrote, or even if you even knew this, Greg, one of the only things that Greg was able to squeeze out of NBC in that first year was he let us write one more script than we would shoot. And so we wrote one extra episode that I think he wrote. And then we just we picked the best five out of the six that we had written and threw the other one away. And I wish I could remember what that other one was. There is a there

is a lost. Oh, that'd be a good question for Greg. Yeah, there's a lost season one office episode script out there somewhere that we just never produced. So it was really intense work and it was a combination of story breaking but also just like a master class in how to create television and what makes a good story. There were times when, I've told this story before but there are times when greg was talking. We would be pitching and i had a notebook where i would like just jot down ideas and there would be moments when greg would say. Let's talk about what let's just pause for a second. And talk about like what makes a good story and then he would start kind of like going through the list of things that he felt were crucial

to good TV stories. And I would realize like, oh, he's in lecture mode is the way I thought of it was lecture mode, which was a good thing. It sounds like a bad thing, but it was a good thing. And I would turn the page and I would start taking notes like I was in college. And I would just like write down

as if he were an actual professor and I had a test coming up and I would start just writing down. And I still have those notes and I still go back and look at them every once in a while to like remember, to refresh my memory about what he told us all about storytelling. It was that intense and that sort of foundational and meaningful to all of us. Oh, man. Wow. I do remember those early days about what a small collective we were.

Even our table reads, do you remember? We would just pull up chairs on the stage where we were filming. We would just all grab like a desk chair and sit in a circle and read the script. And I loved that. Mm-hmm. It was really intimate. There were so many cool things about that first season including that the place where we worked was on this weird soundstage in the middle of Culver City or something.

And so Hollywood soundstages are often, you know, these big gigantic empty rooms where you put sets and then attached to them usually or above them are a suite of offices where the writers and the production staff works. But that suite of offices became the actual set. Like the set that we built was modeled on the crappy offices where the writers were working. And right down to the layout, like Greg was in what would be Michael's office and there was like a reception desk right outside it that became Pam's reception desk. So we would do these drills, Greg would have us do these drills where he would go like,

okay, take a half an hour and go sit at Pam's desk or go sit in Michael's office, or what will be Michael's office, or go sit where Jim sits and just get a sense of what is your eye line to Pam. He would put Mindy at Pam's reception desk and he would put BJ at Jim's desk. And he would say like, just sit there and like absorb the vibe of like, imagine that you're in love with that person

and that you have to like angle your chair in such a way so that you can catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of your eye or whatever. And it was fascinating, it was really interesting. And I remember at one point he had me go into work in Michael's office or what the office that would be the model for Michael's office. And I remember hating it.

Cause it was like, I was in this, I was far away from everything and all this. And I would see people talking through the windows and I'd be like, what are they talking about? And I had the urge to like go out and like do what Michael did all the time, which was like, hey, what's going on? And he knew so much about what he wanted out of the show,

that he would practice not just the skill of writing the characters, but the skill of embodying them or emotionally connecting to them. And that's what I mean when I say it was professorial. It wasn't just like, all right, what's episode two? What's the act break? What's the first act break for the season finale? It was really like, we had to embody the characters and understand them emotionally and socially

in a way that I think led to great episodes, you know? Well, it's so interesting because when all the actors got there, then they did that to us too. They made us sit at our desks and just sit there and feel it. We've talked about that before. And so I love that that started all the way back with you guys writing the episodes. Yeah, June of 2004, like right from the jump,

there were things like that that we did that weren't the typical things that you would do with a writing staff. Another thing he did all the time, which I thought was so smart, which I still do on shows that I work on now, is we would come into work one day and he would put all the characters names on a board and he would pick two of them at random.

He would give them to, he would say, me and Larry Wilmore like go come up with five story ideas for Oscar and Kelly and then and then you Mindy and Paul like go come up with five story ideas for you know Jim and Stanley and it for an hour we would just pitch okay okay, well what the hell could a story be with Oscar and Kelly? But it led to some really cool stuff and like some of those, some of the little B stories and the C stories of, that came, that were in the first couple of seasons were just brainstorming like random pairings of people. He understood fundamentally

that one of the great advantages that the show had over other shows is that we had twenty people we had like most shows have whatever. Six main characters or something and so pretty quickly you get tired of a story with involving these two people there these three people. involving these two people or these three people. And he was like, that's not what this is gonna be. This is gonna be a, the whole point of the show is to observe like an anthropologist, observe the comings and goings of a large number of people in the same office environment. So like go work on random pairings

and like sometimes really fun stuff would come out of it. You know, like he just so thoroughly understood what made the show special and what the potential was for how good it could be, that he had all of these machinations and he was always moving pieces around the chessboard with the writers in those early days, you know? Yeah, I remember telling my dad,

I was trying to describe this group of people and the show to my dad, who was not at all in entertainment, you know, he was a drilling engineer, but sometimes we could talk sports. And I said, dad, here's the deal. We have a deep bench, dad. And it was like a basketball term, like our team is so good.

There's so many layers to this team. And then when he came and, you know, Greg invited them to sit at a table read at lunch, my dad was like, I get it, I get it. I get it now, yeah. I get it, like, because there were laughs, I think, coming from him and all these places, you know? Yeah.

Well, I was gonna say that in season nine, John and I were invited to be producers on the show to kind of help carve out Jim and Pam's final season. And we got to come into their writers room mostly as observers. And Greg was running the show that season and he was still doing those exercises. And it was fascinating. Except in this case, it was more like homework. I remember the day started and Greg said, okay, get out your homework.

What? And the homework had been that everyone had to come up with five ideas for, I can't remember what it was, but it was like for a Dwight and Stanley cold open. Go. And then you would just sit and listen. And then when there was an idea that piqued his interest, he would say, oh, oh, okay, you two go off, flesh that out. And then two people would leave the room and then we would keep listening to the homework.

And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I would be so terrified to present my five ideas because sometimes it was just crickets. Like you could just hear the ideas just die in the room. I mean, what an intense and vulnerable thing to pitch your creative ideas in front of like a room of people who are all judging whether or not you should follow that thread.

Yes, one of his greatest strengths is that he is unafraid, I would say, of failure. And I think, I believe that that comes, I'm guessing that that comes partially from working at Saturday Night Live because what you just described of like pitching ideas and having them bomb, right? That is the essence of working at SNL. Except your failures at SNL are public. Like you write sketches and there's a read through with the entire cast of the show and Lauren and all the producers around a giant table and the audience is 150 people who work on the show.

And by the way, a very famous person who's hosting the show, like, you know, Drake is reading your sketch or whatever. Oh my God. And there are moments at SNL where, you know, your sketches are 12 pages long or whatever, and your sketch starts and you get to page two and like the joke of the sketch is sprung and no one laughs. And in your head, you're like, there's 10 more pages.

Like we have to sit here for 10 more pages as no one finds my premise funny. And so for the first, I don't know what Greg's experience was, I've never really talked to him about his time there, but for the first like six months, you fall into a deep depression. Like it's just like,

it's so embarrassing to fail that way publicly. And then the week goes by and the show happens. And then it's like, all right, it's Monday again, do it again. And you like do it again, and you fail again, and you fail and you fail and you fail. And eventually, at some point, hopefully, you kind of figure it out. And you write a sketch and it gets some laughs. And you're like, okay, it's not the end of the world. Like, I'm still here.

And then you get a little better and a little better. And that, like that theory is, it's pretty brutal on your ego, but when you've already had it driven out of your ego from working at SNL, like five Stanley cold opens, I can, oh, who cares? No problem. Yeah, exactly. So I, that, and his theory is really like,

this is a numbers game. Like the way to get to the best ideas is you have to create a thousand ideas in order to find the two that are good. And he took that approach with everything. He took that approach when he was hiring writers. He took that approach when he was casting people. I mean, how long did the casting process go on

for the show? Endlessly long, endlessly, endlessly long. And that's just his, he's just the most thorough person when it comes to that. He doesn't settle for anything. He demands that you walk down. I mean, when we were breaking stories, like we would get five sixth of the way down the line

toward breaking a story and we'd get to a point where he would realize it didn't work and he even go like, man, this doesn't work, throw it away, start over. And it's really exhausting but also the show lasted for 10 years and it was really good. And here we are still talking about it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 17 years later. Wow. Well, now I think we have to ask you, Mike. Yeah, we do. How did you come to play Moe's? Yeah.

Something we understand you hated. You hated being Moe's, but we love Moe's. Let me just delineate here importantly. I love the fact that I played Moe's. I hated actually doing it because for two reasons. So here's the story. The story was in the... Greg always had it as part of Dwight Schrute's backstory

that he himself was not Amish or Mennonite or anything like that, but he was sort of Amish adjacent, that he had relatives. He was of Germanic descent living in Pennsylvania. That alone is sort of Amish adjacent. So Greg always had it in the back of his head that there was a sort of cousin, a shrewd cousin farming community

that was either Amish or something in the Amish family. So in 2004, there was a reality show called Amish in the City. Yes, yes, I saw that. Yes, it was a terrible, terrible program. It was so hard to watch. It was so awful and my wife and I watched it and I was sort of trying to express how cringy it was

to the writers room one day. The premise of the show was they took a bunch of idiot club kids from l.a. Who are on spring break and they were like you guys are gonna come stay in this awesome house in the hollywood hills and they were psyched and they were like we're gonna get so drunk and party and whatever what they didn't know that also invited to stay in the house. Where a bunch of young amish folks on Rumspringa who had been released for their year of exploration and they were going to live together and then you know... Hot mess ensues. Hot mess ensues, right. So one of the characters on the show who was Amish was named Moe's. And Moe's was this delightful, kindhearted, fragile egg who tried his best to become friends

with the idiot club kids from LA. And among other ways that he tried this where he fashioned his own wooden toys, like a little wooden airplane or a little wooden car. He made them himself. He made them himself. He made them himself and he presented them to his new friends and they were just like, what the hell is this?

Right? And so I was like relating this story to the room about how like awful this show was. And Greg pointed at me with his giant finger. I remember it so clearly and said, you're gonna play Moe's, you're Dwight's cousin, you're Moe's. And I was like, ha ha ha. And he was like, no, I'm serious, that we're gonna do this, you're gonna play Moe's.

And I thought it was a joke for a couple reasons. First, because I thought it was a joke. Second, because all of the other writers, as you may know, got to play essentially like versions of themselves or significant characters in the show. Like Mindy was in the show all the time and Paul was in the show all the time and BJ was in the show all the time. And Greg was essentially saying, you are a joke

and I'm gonna turn you into a joke. And then, so the first time that we did it, it was in a photo. It was when, when Rain just says, I have a cousin, I in a photo. It was when, Yes. when Rain just says, I have a cousin, I run a beet farm with my cousin, Moses. It was in an episode I wrote. It was the one where Michael buys a condo.

Yes. And it was just a photo. And I was like, great. I'll put on a fake beard and, actually, I don't even think I had the beard for the photo, but I'll dress up in these wool clothes and we'll take a photo and that'll be the end of it. But then the writers, my so-called friends,

got very excited about me playing Moe's and started writing me into episodes all the time. And it was the episode BJ wrote, the initiation where Dwight was trying to initiate Ryan into some kind of salesman fraternity by bringing him to his farm. And they wrote Mo's into the show. And so Greg insisted for this episode that I have a real beard.

He didn't believe that a fake beard, according to him, would look real. And I was like, listen, I don't grow facial hair very easily. It's gonna take me a long time. He's like, well, you better get started. It was basically just hazing. That's all it was.

So I grew a real beard for months and months and months. And in that time, this show was nominated for an Emmy. And Greg and I and some of the other producers went around and had a bunch of like fancy Hollywood events that we went to and in every one of those photos I have the disgusting wiry mose beard. And then, so that episode was supposed to be

the first one we shot in season three, but then there was a, I can't remember why, there was some kind of production issue or script issue or something, and it got delayed like two or three more months. So that I had to keep, and I realized like, I remember like this sweating panic of like, I was counting down the days until I could shave.

And I was like, oh no, now I can't shave now and then grow the beard back in time. So I had to keep it like another three months. And then by the time we finally shot it, it was like mid September in deep in the valley on that Disney Ranch Valley location where we shot Reign's Dwight's Farm. It was the day we shot that first episode,

the high that day was 105. And I was wearing long johns and wool pants and a wool shirt and suspenders and these old work boots that were incredibly uncomfortable. And I had to run around and pretend to wrestle Ryan. And like, I was just like, I was like a ghost. Like I was just like running through, I was like a horror movie ghost

running through the background of scenes. It took an entire day. I had to get up at 4.30 in the morning to get to Disney Ranch by 5.30. And I was like, well, at least I'll never have to do that again. And then the writers, my so-called friends, wrote me into like a hundred more episodes. So I'm very honored and happy to have played a small, silly role in the history of the show on screen, but the actual act of doing it was always 105. They always, I was always shirtless on a seesaw

or running alongside a car like a dog, or in probably the scariest moment of my life, being slapped like being punched in the face essentially by Angela Kinsey. I know. That was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. Do you remember that when we had to do that? Yes, I was gonna talk to you about it

because Angela and Mo's had so many actual scenes together and a lot of them are in the deleted scenes. I'm watching the DVDs. Some made it in, but a few really cracked me up. But I have to talk to you about that one. First I want to say there was a deleted scene in The Surplus where I'm at Shroop Farms with Andy. We're wedding planning.

Dwight is our wedding planner. We're trying to discuss a butter sculpture and Andy's signing all these papers and you're coming in the kitchen and I hiss at you. Like a cat. And then you run away and we kept breaking at this because it was so absurd. So there's that moment. Like what is Angela and Mo's? What is their relationship? But then the episode he's talking about, I want to, cause I wrote it. It's the finale. It's the series finale.

No, that's when you kidnapped me. Oh, right, right, right. Okay, the episode was free family portrait and Angela is chasing who she thinks is Dwight in Dwight's car, but it's Mo's dressed as Dwight because she wants to find out if Dwight's found out about her baby, right? Right, right.

And one of the things I remember, which is crazy in hindsight, Mike, is that you and I did our own stunt driving where we had to screech into a cul-de-sac and pull side by side, like really fast, turn on a dime, and then I fly out of the car because they didn't want to waste any time, lose all that footage, and I run up,

and I swing open the door, and it's Moe's and not Dwight, and you won't tell me where Dwight is, and they wanted me to slap the shit out of you. Right. So what happened was, we were like, okay, you and I just were like, so let's just walk through how this happens, and you were kind of like, okay, so I'll come over here, and then I'll get out here, and you'll stand against the car, and then I'll were like, so let's just like walk through how this happens. And you were kind of like, okay, so I'll come over here

and then I'll get out here and you'll stand against the car and then I'll slap you. And you like just sort of moved your hand in the motion of what it would be. You did a fakey and I was like, okay, yeah, this seems okay. So we do the first take, we screech up, we do a good job of doing our own stunts by the way.

You and me. You pull me out, you're like, where's Dwight, where's Dwight? I'm like, I don't know, or something. And then you slapped me, but you slapped me for real. You hit me so hard, I spun around like a top and like hit the roof of the car and was like, my ears were ringing. And I remember like, I was like, oh, I can't hear what she's saying to me because my ears are ringing so loudly. Oh my God Mike I'm so sorry you know Matt Sohn told me he was like Angela you're gonna have to really hit him because we're pretty wide it'll be you won't be able to do the fakie.

Yes and and I and I I also remember this is not your fault none of this is your fault. I feel so bad I felt so bad. No because and I because I remember saying no really hit me because I'm six feet tall you are not six feet tall. I am so bad. I felt so bad. No, because I remember saying, no, really hit me, because I'm six feet tall, you are not six feet tall. I am five one. Right? And I was like, no, I hate it when there's like a fake slap on TV. I'm sure this will be fine. Just really hit me, it'll be fine.

I remember telling you that. Oh boy. Like just really hit me, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. I had no idea that you were a mixed martial arts professional. And you hit me so hard I really like lost my, I did not know where I was. I didn't know what was happening. My eyes went blank and my hearing dropped out and I had no idea what was happening. It was wonderful. I'm so, it, and that's the take they used, thankfully. Because afterwards, also, I remember

afterwards you were like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I was like, no, no, no, I just didn't understand how strong you were. Oh my gosh, muggers beware. Okay, Angela, Kinsey. I do remember, I felt so bad. And I remember saying, I was trying to like think, why, why, why was that so hard? Maybe it was the momentum, because I'm running. I was was trying to

think about, I don't know where the ninja came from, Mike. I think that slapping is just a more shocking thing than you. I've never been slapped in my life, I'm proud to say. And so I think I just greatly underestimated the force of the blow that was about to hit my face. But this is all part of this larger conversation of why it wasn't fun to play Moe's. It's because not only was it always a sight gag, but also sometimes the writers would write actual lines for me and then in the edit it would always be like,

yeah, it's funnier if we don't hear from Moe's, right? So they would cut all the lines. And then it was like, what is the most humiliating way that we can use him? then it was like, what is the most humiliating way that we can use him? And it was like being slapped, like in an outhouse with his pants around his ankles while the door is slamming closed. Like it was just, it was Greg's and the writer's way

of just like enjoying tormenting me. So now when I look back, I'm so happy that I did it. But every time I had to like leave the writer's room, a place where I knew what I was doing, and go be a performer where I did not know what I was doing, I was always a little bit like, this is torture. I always felt like it was a little bit of torture. mows very often? There are certainly times when I'm recognized for that yes. I mean I'm older I'm 17 years older and my hair is a lot grayer and so people don't don't recognize me as often as you would think they would given how popular the show still is. I will say that like my son went to a basketball camp a couple summers ago and I went to pick him up from the camp. And my son had just watched the show,

I think he was 10 or 11, and he had just watched the whole show. And he was very excited to tell people that I wrote for it and that I played Moe's. And so I went to pick him up from the camp, and one of his counselors, I walked over to where the kids were, and one of his counselors saw me coming,

and he just broke into this huge smile and was like, hey! And I was like, all right, this guy knows what I was most. And like, you know, he's gonna tell when people recognize me. I did also, when the pandemic first hit, I did a fundraiser for LA Regional Food Bank, which is a charity I really like. The LA Regional Food Bank gives out food to a lot of people in LA County. And I said, like, all right, I'm gonna try to raise money for LA Regional Food Bank. And I'll match donations up to, I can't remember what it was, some $25,000 or something.

And like very quickly, donations started pouring in. And then like a true moron, I said, if we raise $50,000 by the end of the day, I will shave my head. And that, and it was a joke, but like that caused donations to really pour in. And to the point where like it was like within an hour, we were at like $50,000.

And so then I was like, oh, I see the game. The game is humiliation, right? Like if I just, if I offer humiliation, like we'll raise more money. So then I put it up as a poll and said, would you rather have me shave my head or grow the Mo's beard? And grow the Mo's beard won in a landslide.

So I had, so over the, in the early, in like May, June, July of 2020, I spent like, again, like three months growing the beard out and then shaved my mustache. So I just had the beard, neckbeard. And around that time, I got recognized, even with masks, I got recognized like everywhere I went. Like that was a big, that was like a big Mo's moment. Cause it was right when the pandemic hit,

everybody was streaming the show. Like the popularity of the show really surged. And then also I was walking around with the beers. So that was a real high frequency Mo's sighting, I would say. Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. We've talked a lot about the crazy things you had to do

as Mo's that were sort of torturous. Was there any moment being Moe's that you had fun? Was there a scene, was there one moment that you really enjoyed? It was always fun. Like even when I was being tortured, it was always fun. Cause I really like, I revere actors in a very sort of childlike way.

I fundamentally don't understand how actors do what you do. I find it to be the most difficult of all of the performing arts by far. It's so much harder than writing. I think it's harder than directing. And I really, that was really hammered home to me, even when I was doing this ridiculous site gag, and had to say a few words here and there. I was always like, God, I'm so much worse at this than I am in my head. Which is why I'm a writer. It's like what a writer is, right? I know what it should be. I just don't know how to actually do it myself.

So there were times when, for example, do you remember the episode where, of course you do, the episode where Jim and Pam are excited because Shrewd Farms has become a B&B. Yes. And they go and check in. It's the one where I run along the side of the car like a dog at the beginning, right?

Yes. I want to mention quickly, Mike, for anybody, John Krasinski was not driving slow. I was in the car, and I remember that it was 100 degrees that day, because that's the day that John thought it would be really funny to prank me and put the car heater seat on because we weren't allowed to have the air conditioner for sound and I was like so hot. But then you were running next to the car.

So I thought, well, I can't complain about being hot because I mean, look at Mike out there, like running his hardest. And John was like going fast. I mean, I don't know how you did it. You were very fast. I don't know how you did that. You were very fast. I don't know how you did that. That was the hardest acting I've ever done.

And all I was doing is running because I was in those wool clothes and I was wearing those work boots and John was driving like 15 to 20 miles an hour on that dirt road and I had to keep up. But also I had to run up to the window, disappear behind the car and then run fast to catch up to the other side of the window.

Exactly. And also you weren't allowed to use your arms. Yes. Your arms were like, so there was like a lack of momentum that you could create because you were only using your bottom half. I want to read to you what Dunderpedia, the fan website, how they explain Moe's running.

They say, Moe's proceeds to run away in his usual running with his arms swinging no higher than his waist style. I don't know where that came from. I like one of the early, one of the early Moses appearances. It was like, you know, Moses runs in to the, I think it was in the, in the initiation, like Moses runs into the room And I don't know why,

but I just did that really awkward run. That's not how I run when I'm running. I hope not. I just did that for some reason and then it just became the thing that Mo's does. But what Jen is saying is true though, because after I ran and caught up to the car, I then had to run past the car.

I had to speed past it and run like a hundred yards all the way over to where the farmhouse was. And I knew I wasn't on camera anymore because obviously the cameras, what's interesting is not, is not, excuse me, what's interesting is not Mo's running anymore. What's interesting is Jim and Pam reacting to this weird dog person that just ran alongside their car, but they made me run all the way, like a hundred yards every single time. And we did like 11 takes of that.

And I've never been more sore in my life than I was the day after that. Cause I didn't know that I was gonna have to run a hundred, I was gonna have to run a dozen hundred yard sprints. You were like an Olympic contender. You like outran a car. Yeah.

It was the, it's the most athletic I've ever been. I would say it's the most, the highest level of athletic achievement of my life. Well, we have it on camera. It's for all time. Forever. Forever documented. There's proof. There's proof that I used to be a good runner. But I'm sorry because you were gonna say something about

that episode that you enjoyed. Yes. So there was a scene that I don't even know if it made it into the episode. I don't think it did. But there was a scene where Jim and Pam, in that episode, at night, Pam hears Dwight kind of moaning and sad because Angela has broken up with him, I think. And then in the morning, Dwight's gone. And Jim and Pam come down and are being— Moses serving them breakfast. Bacon! Tons of bacon! Just nothing but bacon. And it was actually the closest I ever came to having a scene. Because it was like a page

of dialogue where I was serving you and you were saying, I think Jenna, you say like, Mo's, do you know where Dwight is? Or is he sad about Angela or something? And we actually had an exchange where I had to memorize lines and know what my cues were. And I remember thinking like I'm not this isn't what I'm doing is not per se good but I'm enjoying the process of learning what it's like to be an actor and to actually try to like be like be aware of the camera be be present in the scene like listen to what you're saying and respond with the lines that were written for me. And it was weirdly kind of thrilling. And I was like, this is never going to make it in. Like I, I'd worked at the show long enough to know that we didn't have time for this weird, dumb, Moe's, Jim, Pam scene. But, but I really did have fun doing it because it felt like,

I think it gave me a greater appreciation just for like what, how hard it is to do that. How hard it is to just be in a scene, have lines that you have to have memorized, and know how to say them properly and in an interesting way while there are cameras on you, while there's people in the room. It's just a very difficult skill. I think that the world of television and movies would be better if every writer were forced to act sometimes and if every actor were forced to direct and if every director were forced to write. Like if we all switched positions every once in a while, just to remind ourselves like the other skills

that are involved in making TV art, each of them is so hard. It's so specific and so hard. So I really did like that. I liked acting in those scenes just as a way to like remind me of how difficult a skill it is. Now I have a question. Yeah. Because of your experience with Mo's and knowing

everything that would go into some of the physical comedy bits that you were asked to do, as a writer, does it ever get in your head when you come up with a really great gag? Do you think to yourself, oh no, I'm gonna have to put this actor through this horrible thing? And like, does it ever like affect your writing?

It really does. And I have found myself talking to actors a lot and saying like, we have this idea for this silly thing. Are you cool with this? They always say yes. Like actors are incredibly adaptable people by and large. They're always happy to, or in my experience have been always happy to say like,

oh yeah, that sounds fun. The one time I didn't do this and I wish I had, although it was fine, nothing bad happened, but we wrote it, there was a scene in the show, The Good Place that I created where William Jackson Harper played a character who was sort of a, he was a, he's sort of a tortured soul. He wants to be sort of morally perfect.

And he believes that such a thing is possible. And there's an episode where he's sort of going through an existential crisis. And he's just sort of walking around lost in a daze. And he like, he goes into, he's like walking around and some sprinklers go off and they just soak him. And he just kind of stands there and just gets soaked by the sprinklers. And then he just kind of like takes his shirt off and just kind of keeps walking.

And then you cut to him and he's in a grocery store shopping shirtless. And then, excuse me. And then like a woman comes over and is like, sir, you have to wear a shirt in here. And he just grabs like a shirt off a rack and just puts it on and smiles and keeps walking. And it turns out that William Jackson Harper is like, cut, like he's like a very like physically fit person, which I did not know.

Like that, I had never seen him with his shirt off before he shot that scene. But him taking his shirt off caused the internet to like explode because it was like oh my god the like the dorky philosophy professor guy is also jacked and And I mean it was he was only good for him like I Everybody was happy with the result, but it I was like oh my god I never asked him if it was okay that I wrote this thing where he takes his shirt off.

Like I should ask actors that more. Like I should say, are you okay with this? And I think if there were, it's a gendered thing in a way it shouldn't be, right? Like if it, obviously if there had, if it had been a woman, I would never in a billion years have written any scene where a woman disro would never in a billion years have written any scene where a woman disrobes in any way without clearing it with her first.

There would have been a million discussions and meetings and whatever, and it didn't occur to me that a man might also be uncomfortable with that. And so I remember thinking like, I'm so happy that it was okay, that he was okay with it, that whatever. But I also, again, like, and this weirdly comes from playing Moe's and all the ridiculous, I had to pick up cow patties and throw them at Rainn Wilson and do all sorts of like humiliating things. No one ever asked me if I was okay with any of it. And it, I do think that it's, those conversations should happen more often, even when you don't think there will be any problem with this. I think there should be generally more communication between writers and directors and actors to just say like, Hey, just want to make sure

you're cool with this. If you're not, it's totally okay, we can write something else. So anyway, I don't know if that answers your question or not. But well, it's really interesting because as an actor, I feel like this comes up a lot in television because you agree to play a character, but you don't know what is going to be written about your character beyond the pilot episode. And so there could be years and years and years of stories and they are a surprise to the actor every week. And so with a movie, well, I can see the movie script if there's like three weird sex scenes

or like a weird scene that makes me uncomfortable, I can just say, oh, this isn't the part for me. Right, you know the whole story. Yeah, I know everything that's being asked of me when I accept that movie role. But when you accept a television role, you don't know what's going to be asked of you. And I've always thought that that communication, you know, this came up on our

show later when they came up with the really funny idea that Pam would have a male lactation consultant who would be massaging her breasts in front of Jim and that Pam and the lactation consultant would find this very clinical and that Jim was trying to also find it clinical. Trying to be cool. Yeah, but was also like, this handsome man is massaging my wife's breasts right now. And I remember they came up to me and said, we think this is really funny, but we imagine that it would be weird for you to have a total stranger that you met that day come

and handle your breasts and the joke only works if they're actually touching your breasts. So what if your fiance Lee played the role and then it's someone who's already massaging your breasts, massaging your breasts. And I was like, well, he does massage them, so that is true. And so it was great. So then it was just weird for John. Yeah, then it was just weird for everyone else because we were super comfortable. Well, I think that's, first of all, good for them for obviously bringing that up,

but also like that, there is an enormous leap of faith that you're taking as an actor when you sign onto a TV show, right? You're really like, you're using a very small amount of data, which is usually like a pilot script, and maybe a meeting with the show creator or the showrunner, and you're extrapolating over potentially 10 years and 200 episodes of like, am I putting my faith and trust in this person and is it gonna be rewarded or are there gonna be constant battles and fights about creative directions

and things that they ask me to do that. And this is part of why being an actor I think is so difficult is you only, you're only advocate is yourself. Like you don't have, you know, you maybe have an agent or a manager who can have your back in those moments, but it's like this idea of like the quote difficult actor end quote. Like I think that is a horrible misnomer

that has come from now 80 years of actors being getting a new script every week and not having any idea what's in it. And those ideas coming from people who maybe haven't run a bunch of things by them and just being like, oh man, now I got to do this this week. And the range of how it can make an actor feel uncomfortable is enormous. It can be anything from like a strange man

has to massage parts of your body that you might not want that person to massage, all the way to just creative decisions about the character, the choices the character makes, things that the character does that you don't agree with. Like, it's just really hard. It's a very difficult thing. And the chance for it to go sideways is enormous. So the more communication there is between writers and actors, the better. To bring this full circle, that's another thing

that I remember thinking I could attribute to SNL a little bit with Greg because Greg worked there. At SNL, like everybody does everything. Writers act and actors write, and it's very like community theater kind of feeling. And there's no division between actors and writers really at all. Like it's all one big hodgepodge. And that was Greg's whole theory was like,

let's break down these artificial barriers between the writers and the actors. That's why he wanted Mindy and BJ and Paul to act in the show. It's why he gave the season two finale where Jim and Pam, where Jim tells Pam that he likes her or is in love with her and that they kiss for the first time. Steve wrote that. He gave that to Steve. That's traditionally the kind of thing that he would write or a co-EP trusted writer would write that script. But Greg saw the big picture and he understood fundamentally that the more there was that we he broke down the divisions between writers and actors the healthier the organism of the show would be

and he was totally right. So true. I mean Jenna and I have talked about that a lot on this podcast. Other shows that we have done since The Office. I did a guest star on a show and the writers room was in New York and we filmed in LA. And I thought, wow, they never meet the writers. They never interact with them at all. And it's just been such an interesting and wonderful perspective to look back at how fortunate we were to have that sort of creative collaboration as our biggest job in our life.

I've bounced up to writers on sets at other jobs thinking that the way we had it on the office was normal and they seem terrified to speak to me. They are terrified that I am talking to them. They are afraid to say anything. I'll be like, hey, what's up? What do you think, like next week, what do you think is gonna be like,

how's this story gonna play out? And they're like, I next week, what do you think is going to be like, how's this story going to play out? And they're like, I don't want to speak to you. The first time I did a multicam after the office, because I'd never done a multicam, all the writers were like huddled in a corner, you know, like we're filming. It's like filming a one act play. And they're all in the corner because I knew this joke wasn't working. And I had like a few ideas. So I went up to the huddle and I was like, hey guys, I got like a two or three pitches.

And they were like, what? It was like record scratch. Yeah, I know. And again, Greg's ethos was, Greg's ethos in a nutshell is best idea wins. And he doesn't care whether the best idea comes from a writer, an actor, a director, an accountant, a random person on the street who happens to walk by

at the right moment and has a good pitch. It was just, why would we not take the best idea? And so that fostered that sense of, everybody give us all your ideas. Let's put all of the ideas into a pot and pick the best one. And that is very frequently, sadly, not how it works on other shows. And it's a shame because, you know,

there were times when we would be battling about something in the edit bay about an episode and that he'd have two alts and he would say, which one do you like? And all of the writers would choose version A and he would go like, and then he would call in the accounting department. Yeah.

And he'd be like, which one do you like? The real accounting. The actual accountants, yeah. Yes, not you and Oscar. Yeah, not he'd be like, which one do you like? The real accountants. The actual accountants. Yeah. Yes. Not you and Oscar. Yeah, not me and Brian and Oscar. And he would go, which one do you like? And they would say, we like B. And he's like, Yeah, I think B is better. And it drove us crazy sometimes. But he was like, you're not the audience. You're

professional comedy writers. Like, of course, you're gonna like this weird offbeat thing that we did. You know what the best example of this is? So Jim's proposal to Pam at the gas station, right? So three versions, I don't know if you remember this, Jenna, we had three versions. One of them was the car pulls over, the camera is across the street

and is shooting super long lens and all you hear is traffic whizzing by in the foreground and you can't hear, they're not mic'd in this version, the sound was off. So you saw Jim walk up and you saw Pam and then ha ha and then all of a sudden they're talking you don't know what they're saying, Jim gets down on one knee, Pam reacts, and then they hug and they kiss and it's over. And second version was, or the final version was like very traditionally shot. Like you were right with them in the gas station,

sort of looking in a classic TV coverage. And you could still hear traffic whizzing by in the background, but you couldn't really see it. And the cameras are right up close. And then there was a sort of intermediate version where you were a little bit further away, but you could hear what they were saying and he screened all three of them and the, the one that was where the camera was super far away and you couldn't hear a word gave me like the greatest goosebump feeling of my life.

Like I was like, that's so beautiful. It's so perfect for the show. It reminded me of the scene in the British office where Tim takes off his mic and goes in and talks to Dawn. That was the sort of model of it where, and you don't hear what they're saying. And then he comes back out and grabs the mic and says, she said, no, by the way, and, and it's terrible and sad. Um, and I was like, well, that's, that's a home run. That's like the most beautiful. It's so perfect. It's the most beautiful thing ever. And he was like, yeah, we're not using that version. And I was like, well, that's a home run. That's like the most beautiful, it's so perfect, it's the most beautiful thing ever.

And he was like, yeah, we're not using that version. And I was like, why? And he was like, because this is a moment that fans of the show have been waiting for, for five, six years, whatever it was. And it's just fundamentally not fair to deny them the ability to hear Jim say, will you marry me?

It's just mean. It's like, and this might be the most sort of like beautiful, artistic, you know, like highfalutin version. But if, if what, what are we doing if we're denying fans the ability to hear Jim say, will you marry me? And hear Pam say, yes, that's just cruel. And I always fought him on all of those decisions and he was always right.

Just like at the end of the day, I was like, of course, of course you need to hear, will you marry me? Yes, like that's such a foundational moment in the history of the show. And so he had that thing of like, let's develop and explore every possible idea. Let's walk down every path. Let's pull every name out of the hat.

And at the end of the day, we will choose the one that is the best for the show, not the one that's loved the most by the people who work on the show or the writers who write things or anything else. just what is the best thing for the show. And that's why the show over the course of its decade long run had such an integrity to it, I think it's because it was always the decisions were always made in terms of what's best for the show, not not what a bunch of like jaded writers thought would be the coolest thing or something like that.

Do you wanna ask Mike about the Christmas lights? Oh yeah, I do. This is such a hard pivot. But we, okay, so in the first Christmas episode, which, oh my God, I just love that episode so much, I can watch it every year. It's almost like, what do you like to watch at the holidays? Oh, that Christmas vacation with Chevy Chase.

I like to watch the very first Christmas episode. The office Christmas, Yankee swap, yeah. I have had a Yankee swap party for years inspired by that episode. I love everything about it. So there was this moment that we heard was inspired by your real life where when they put up the Christmas tree,

the tiny, tiny Christmas lights, and Angela's so mad at Phyllis, she's so pissed off. And we heard that was like actually based on something in your life. Was, is that true? And were there other moments like that, like things that were in your life that made it into the show?

Totally true. My first Christmas in LA, the show. Totally true. My first Christmas in LA, my then fiance, now wife, JJ and I got our first tree as cohabitants and we were so excited. We both love Christmas. We love like decorating the tree. We love everything and we bought the tree and we took it home.

We put it up and we played Christmas music and we played Christmas music. In my house growing up, you always did only white lights. I don't know why. That was what our family preferred. JJ had been like, I like the big colored ones. They're so cheery and happy. I, for some reason, won the argument. I don't know why, but I was like,

trust me, it looks great. I went and bought those little tiny white lights and I very carefully strung them around the tree and everything. And then we like were playing Christmas music and it was like a big countdown and I turned them on and you absolutely could not see any of them. They were the saddest, the least, the least. It was the opposite of the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree lighting. And I was immediately humiliated and I turned and my wife was just laughing at me so hard. Like just what a complete failure this was.

And I immediately went out and went to the drugstore and bought big colored lights and came home and we strung them up. So, but I remember that feeling and like that episode is so much about like expectation versus reality. And so I was like, Oh, that would be a good like little metaphor for what's about to happen to Michael Scott when he gets the Phyllis's oven mitt. So I just, I put it in as like Greg was so into, and the show was so into those

tiny, tiny, tiny observable moments of real life. And so I thought, well, that makes perfect sense. And my favorite thing about that is after they turn the lights on and Michael goes, not great, there's a quick pan to Angela who just looks angrier than she has ever looked in her entire life. I know. That episode gave me a full headache because I was just always so angry. Scowling, just scowling with everybody. Yeah, I mean, so much of what happened in those first, especially in the first season and a half, you know, seasons one and two, so much of that stuff was real observation, like, about people's lives.

Like, all of the gifts in that, that I invented for, this was another great writing lesson that came from that episode. So in my original version, the person who had Angela, maybe, no, Oscar had Creed. Who had, who popped? Toby, Toby had, Toby, right, right. So Toby in the original version had a talking head

where he was like, I don't know a lot about Angela. I know that she's religious. So I bought her this book. And the book was one of those sort of religious adjacent self-help books, you know, like sort of like leading a spiritual life or something. It's one of those kind of hokey books. And Greg was like, I don't think that he should give her that book because we already know that Angela has that tendency or leans in that direction. And so you're not the audience isn't getting any new information. And I was like, All right, well, well, like, what could it be? And then someone might been Greg, pitched that thing of a poster of babies who are dressed like adults. And nobody could understand why,

but it was the perfect thing. It was just that perfect thing that it was like, you're learning more about Angela, right? You got a new piece of information about her character, but it's still very much in keeping with what we already know about her. And then that poster became like basis of like four other stories over the course of the show.

Oh yeah, it became a huge source of contention between Angela and Oscar, because she hung it by her desk. And then Oscar had to wear it as a shirt. Yeah. Well, Angela in real life really likes animals who are dressed in costumes of other animals. I mean. It's very similar.

It's very similar to liking babies dressed as adults, I think. I mean, animals dressed as anything, really. Like if on Halloween you dress your dog as a hot dog, I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh! Your dog's a hot dog! So we have two dogs, and this year they were ketchup and mustard. Ah, I love it!

Oh, I would love to see a picture of that. That lights up Angela's life. It really does. So wait, animals dressed like other animals, you mean like a dog dressed like a cow or like a- Oh yeah, or like a teddy bear, but it has like a bunny hat. Yeah, I know why.

I don't know why. Mike, thank you so much for coming on Office Ladies today. This was such a treat. We want to tell people that you wrote a book. Yes. And the book is called How to be Perfect. It comes out on January 25th. Tell us about it.

So this book came out of the show, The Good Place that I created, which was about, if you haven't seen it, it's very hard to explain it in one sentence, but it's essentially, I pitched it as a show about what it means to be a good person. And for the show, I read a lot of ethics and philosophy by a lot of very old, boring people. And I thought, I had this thought while I was researching it, which was that these people have such good ideas

for how to be better people. Like, it's all of these ethical theories and this moral philosophy is like, it's like a how-to guide for like living a good life and being a good person on earth, but their writing is so tortured and boring that no one wants to read it. So maybe I could write a version where I sort of try to explain as best as I can what their theories are,

but in a way that doesn't give you a tension headache and make you sleepy. So that's what it is. It's a summary of a lot of different theories and moral philosophy. The way that the book is organized is I pose a bunch of boring questions or mundane questions that face us every day. Like, if my friend bought an ugly shirt and says, what do you think of my shirt? Is it okay to lie to her? Or, or can you or can you or do you have to tell the truth? And so it's questions like that, that are just things that come up in everyday life. And then I try to explain what like different moral philosophers

and ethicists would say about those questions. So that's the idea. And it's on sale January, it's on sale now, you can buy it now from any online bookstore that you prefer. And also all of the proceeds are going to charity. So you can buy it and know that you're doing something good in the world by having money go to charity. Oh, I love that. Just by buying the book, I am being a good person. That's right. That's the idea, yeah. So you're really setting me up to succeed.

I know. I like it. I like it too. You know right away that you've made the world a slightly better place just by buying the book. It's that easy. It's that easy to be a good person. I love it. Well, this is what Mindy Kaling had to say about your book. She said,

As someone who worries that a deep dive into morality will ruin my fun and problematic life, I was certain this book wouldn't be for me. Boy, was I wrong. It's so brilliant and funny and warmly written, you don't realize you're becoming a better person just by reading it. Yes, it was very nice of her to blurb the book. Her blurb is actually the one that made the cover, which I don't think I've told her yet. Cover blurb.

Oh, cover blurb. I found it online. That's fancy blurb right there. Yeah. Well, I'm so excited to read it. Yes, I have ordered my copy and Angela has too and we're gonna get them and Mike, thank you because I, well I'm a huge fan of your Twitter as well. Yeah. I feel like you're very, very good at taking complex ideas or thoughts and making them really digestible

and entertaining, you're also very good at breaking down baseball statistics. Yes, I have found, I go to your Twitter if there's a big game on because I'm like, oh, well, I know that Mike is gonna explain this to me because I don't know what all the hullabaloo's about. That's very kind of you to say. I often wonder who in the world is still reading my

Twitter because it is either in ridiculous arcane sports data or just screaming about something that a politician said. And it's like the Venn diagram for the two groups of people that want both of those things has to be tiny. So I'm glad to know that you two are still in the Venn diagram overlap of people who read my Twitter. I am. I don't understand your sports analysis. Not always, no. But I find it just sort of fascinating to watch your brain work.

Yes, and we love data. Jenna and I have discovered one of the things we have in common is we love tracking things. We get very excited. Just you name it. We track it on the show. Like I became obsessed about every plant that was at front reception and I would document how every week there was a new plant. And that's something that I find fascinating about baseball is there's so many different stats. I don't understand them, but I will go to your Twitter when there's a big game and people are talking about stats. Yes. Pitches. You really break down the pitches. Yeah. Well, part of what some people love about baseball and what some people hate about it is the amount of data that you can

analyze. I love it because I'm the same way. I get nerdy about like, about numbers and stats and stuff. But again, like when I when I go to my Twitter account and post like 11 consecutive tweets about like whether a certain pitch was a ball or a strike, I do have the thought of like, who is this for? Like, who is reading this right now and enjoying it? But that's the joy of Twitter is you don't ever have to know. If you don't wanna know, you can just send it out in the university and who cares? Well, we have one final wrap up question for you. We always ask everyone who is on the show

or worked on the show, if they took anything from the set. Okay, so unlike probably many of the people that you've interviewed, I left in the middle. Right. I was around for the first four seasons and then the beginning of season five. And then Greg and I started developing parks and recreation together.

I worked out of the offices. Like I was still around, but slowly over the course of season five, I receded into the background. So I didn't know, I think, sort of intellectually understand that I was leaving leaving. And so I didn't really think to grab anything specific from the set because it was like they were still being used. Right. Still making the show. So I really didn't take anything. I have a couple things that I do treasure

that are related to the show. One of which was when I left, Lee Eisenberg and Gene Stupnitsky went to Phil Shea, property master Phil Shea, and got his contact for who made the Dwight bobblehead that Angela had given to Dwight as a present. And they had a Mike bobblehead that Angela had given to Dwight as a present and they had a Mike bobblehead made. Oh,

And as like it was sort of like a parting gift. And so I still have the Mike bobblehead. The only problem is I used to wear glass. I wear contacts now every day. But back then I wore glasses pretty often because we would often work until like, you know, one in the morning and my contacts would dry out and the bobble, the Mike bobblehead had glass had actual glasses on and at some point I think when we moved the glasses broke off, which is a bummer and

I've often thought about trying to repair them somehow and put them back on. So I have a mic bobblehead and I do have somewhere, and I don't even know where, there was a moment at which everyone realized that the world's best boss mug would be a thing that was going to matter for the run of the show and Phil ordered like 24 of them just as in case they broke or in case we needed more of them or whatever and I asked him if I could have one and he gave me one so I have a world's best boss mug not one that was ever used it's not a famous one it's not the one from the opening credits or anything but I do have a world's best boss mug, not one that was ever used, it's not a famous one, it's not the one from the opening credits or anything,

but I do have a world's best boss mug that is technically speaking from the set, I guess, if you wanna stretch the definition of from the set. And you know what else you have is you have your binder with all your notes, that is amazing to me. I have that, I have a lot of notebooks that I still look at from those early days. Yeah, and I'm sure there's a couple other things here and there somewhere. Someone, I think, after the finale, Wardrobe asked me if I wanted to keep any of the Mohs clothes.

And I believe what I said was, please burn them in a fire. Oh my gosh, Mike, this was so fun. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to see you too. I'm so pleased that you are the official voice of the show. It seems very fitting to me that the world is seeing the show through your eyes. That's very kind of you to say. We're loving it.

That was amazing. I love talking to Mike. I could talk to him forever. Me too. And he said to us, you guys, he was like, if you ever have any questions for me about anything for the office or other things, let me know. And I was like, Jenna, how often can we text him? Exactly.

Exactly. Yes, Mike, get ready for an email flurry. You love the word flurry. It's cute. for an email flurry. You love the word flurry. It's cute. It's a flurry. I mean, instead of Jenna's blowing up your phone, she flurries up your phone. I'm going to flurry it. Well, you guys, Mike's book is called How to be Perfect, the correct answer to every

moral question. It is out now. And Mike really is giving away 100% of everything he's making on his book to five different charities and the book is awesome. Well that's our show this week guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Office Ladies. Next week we have the promotion. Yeah, Jim gets a little mini office in the office.

He gets a glass box. He does. In the middle of the bullpen. It's strange and interesting, and we'll tell you all about it. See you next week. Thank you for listening to Office Ladies. Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey

and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer. And our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbaco. Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis. Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz. Our theme song is Ruppertree by Creed Bratton. You