Office Ladies - How We Met the Office Ladies

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

This week on Office Ladies 6.0, Jenna and Angela chat with the hosts of the “How We Made Your Mother” podcast, Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas! Welcome to the Office Ladies Network fellas! Josh played Ted Mosby on the hit TV comedy “How I Met Your Mother” and Craig Thomas co-created the show. Now they talk all things about how the show was made and give fans behind the scenes details on their podcast, How We Made Your Mother. Josh and Craig join the ladies this week to rewatch “The Office” episode “Customer Survey”. They also discuss the time they all spent as part of the "appointment television" generation and what it's like now to revisit the shows they were on now. There was a lot to chat about like the similarities between the two shows, their theme songs and what makes both such classic comedies. Enjoy!  Check out “How We Made Your Mother”: https://www.howwemadeyourmother.com/ Check out Craig Thomas’ book “That’s Not How It Happened”: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/thats-not-how-it-happened-craig-thomas?variant=43708741517346 Office Ladies Website - Submit a fan question: https://officeladies.com/submitaquestion  Follow Us on Instagram: OfficeLadiesPod Follow Us on YouTube Follow Us on TikTok To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, you guys know we love Airbnb. I also just did a ladies' birthday trip. It was my friend's 50th birthday. All of us gals drove up the coast. It was so fun. We had the kitchen to hang out in, but then we all had our own space because, you know, we love each other. But I mean, I kind of want my own space at night. You know what I'm saying. We love the privacy. They're always in such great locations where you can really get to know the town you're in. And there's some real hidden gyms out there. These little pockets and neighbors, that you might not see if you stayed at a hotel. Listen, I could go on and on about Airbnb because I love it. It's a great way to travel with friends and family. And you know, your home might be perfect for Airbnb. If you frequently travel or have extra space, maybe you go out of town at the same time every year for a family trip, your home could earn you money while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.ca. slash host. I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey. We were on the office together and we're best friends.

And now we're doing the ultimate office lovers podcast just for you. Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the office with exclusive interviews behind the scenes details and lots of BFF stories. We're the Office Lady 6.0. Hello. Howdy? How's it going? Pretty good. How are you? I mean, I'm good. I've started a new TikTok trend.

What? A TikTok trend, I started doing a thing that I saw. You want to know what it is? Yeah, I'm not on TikTok. Well, me either, but it made its way over to Instagram, which is how I found out about it. Is this something you can show me right now here? It's something you can do every morning, and it's supposed to boost your health and metabolism and stuff. Here's what it is. Okay. You jump up and down 50 times first thing in the morning. It takes less than a minute. So it's this new trend.

Why? I'll have to pee if I jump up and down. You pee first lady. You don't have to do it immediately after getting out of bed. You can pee, you can shower, and then jump up and down 50 times. It's just like some time in your morning. Okay, okay. You've got to jump up and down.

How high do I have to jump? Not high. Just jump. But here's the thing. I started it. I'm on like day maybe six. after the first day my calves were so sore. Just one day of 50 jumps, my calves, I felt it.

When's the last time you jumped on a trampoline? Because I jumped on the trampoline with my kids a while back, and I felt like I'd been in a car accident after. It's been a long time. But supposedly this helps to, like, get your circulation going and flush your lymphatic system. And I don't know, the lady in the Instagram video had great things to say after doing it for one month.

And I got totally, I was like, I'll do it. So I'll keep everyone posted. Well, you know what I started doing. I think I know this. I saw a video where a lady pats herself down. She starts at her shoulder and she goes pat, pat, pat, pat, pat, pat, pat. All the way down her arm. Pat, pat, pat, pat.

And then she does her legs. That's a lymphatic thing too. Well, I started doing it and it does wake you up. Oh, so you are slapping yourself awake and I'm jumping myself away. There it is. Same world. Okay. No.

All right. Well, listen, everybody, we've got a really fun episode today. we are kicking things off with a big announcement. We talked about this a little bit in our second drink this week, but in case you didn't hear, the paper is now airing on NBC every Monday at 8.30 p.m. Eastern 7.30 p.m. Central. Bing, bing, boom. Did I do it?

Nine. Ding ding ding on ding. Remember the little peacock? Dun, down, down. Well, it started this week, and we're super excited about it. Yes, it's being bundled with St. Dennis Medical, which, as you know, stars Wendy MacLendon Covey, aka Concierge Marie. St. Dennis Medical was created by Office alum Justin Spitzer, so basically Monday nights on NBC, you get two great comedies from office folks. I love it. And guys, guess what

else? We are here to announce to you all that starting the new year, we're going to break down all of the paper episodes. So get caught up on Peacock or NBC and meet us back here in the new year for all the insider info and tidbits and trivia. We're going to be hitting everyone up. Mm-hmm. And we also just put some folders up on the Office Ladies' website where you can submit questions for each of the paper episodes. But we're not done with fun stuff. Today, we've got a fun crossover episode for you. Jenna and I are going to be joined by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas, the host of How We Made Your Mother, the rewatch podcast. That is so fantastic. Yes. If you are a loyal listener of Office Ladies, you already know that this show,

How We Made Your Mother, is now available on the Office Ladies Network. And for those of you not familiar with How We Made Your Mother, it is a great rewatch podcast of the hit show How I Met Your Mother, which ran on CBS for nine seasons from 2005 to 2014. The show was a huge hit. It was nominated for something like 28 Emmy Awards, including Best Comedy Series. Josh Radner played the character Ted Mosby. I love it because he says he is the I and how I met your mother. And Craig Thomas was the co-creator of the show. And it's so cool to hear their behind-the-scenes stories from their different perspectives.

Yeah, I mean, I watched the show when it was on. I loved it. And their podcast is so great. They have that unique perspective of having both an actor and a co-co. creator. So I feel like it's like if Greg Daniels sat in on every episode of Office Ladies and told us what the writers were thinking when they crafted the storylines. But also, Josh and Craig, they're just such thoughtful, positive people. Like, their energy is so uplifting. I just, I love listening to them. Me too. I was telling my Josh, because now my Josh is also listening and

loves it. I said, aren't they just so easy and pleasant? It's like they're wonderful to hang out with, You know? Okay, so everyone here is what's happening today. Craig and Josh watched an episode of the office and they're going to be our guests on office ladies. That's right. We watch Season 5 Customer Survey. Now, me and Angie, we watched the Peacock Superfan version. Craig and Josh watched the original broadcast version. You might remember, this is the episode where Pam is away at art school in New York and she and Jim spend the day listening to one another's day over of those little teeny tiny bluths. Meanwhile, Angela and Andy are trying to plan their wedding, and this is the episode where they decide to get married at Shrewt Farms. Yeah. This is also the

episode where Dwight and Jim both get really horrible feedback on their customer reviews, and they figure out that Kelly purposely doctored the reviews as a revenge because they didn't go to her America's Got Talent Party. This is one of my favorite episodes. I'm so excited to hear their take on it. I loved re-watching it. And you guys, not only that, tomorrow, we're going to be on how we made your mother chatting with them about an episode on their show. So be sure to check that out as well. Well, let's take a break and then we'll get into it. I want you to take a second and become aware of the smell around you. Does it like, kind of like nothing? Do you smell something? Scent has this amazing power to influence the

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Just go to rackettin.ca. Download the app or install the browser extension. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Terms and conditions apply. Hi. Hello. Hello, guys. Hi, Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. Welcome to office ladies.

I didn't know those to us or to your audience, but hello. This is so exciting. Guys, thanks for having us. And every sense of that word. Yeah, this is the first time. We're all like, I guess in one space together, like seeing each other. Yeah, this is it. I'm meeting you.

We are so excited, guys. so excited to have you on Office Ladies Network. We love your podcast. Yes. You guys are the best of this. I mean so much coming from you. Thank you guys for having us. We're thrilled to be joining forces with you. You guys, you're the best at this. It's an honor. Our audience is going to love your podcast. You're doing such a great job. Jen and I've been talking so much about the two different perspectives that you bring to the rewatch. It's so good. Oh, thank you guys. Well, we're friends in real life, like you guys are. That part helps. That's so funny you think that, Craig, but go on. Sorry. No, wait. Yeah, yeah. No, that's sweet. Wait a second. Well, we love you and how

you break down your episodes, and we thought it would be fun to have you on to talk about an episode of the office. So we asked you guys to watch customer survey from season five. Yes, we love this episode, and we were curious. What was your overall reaction to it? was positive. That's good. I had a positive reaction. Good. I watched it twice.

I really, first to kind of let it wash over me, and the second time I just wanted to jot down things that delighted me, which is something Craig and I do on our own podcast. But I don't know. One thing I was really struck with is like there's every character is like there's no kind of heroically virtuous character on the show. Like, everyone's got their spiky edges, and everyone can be a little ethically compromised. But also, there's this, it's not just, Michael's the most overt kind of like me, like me, like me, like me.

But everyone is obsessed on some level with their perception, like how they're being perceived, especially in this episode, because it's literally about feedback. Like, what are people thinking of me? And even Jim's thing at the end, like, I didn't, I wasn't invited. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't get a mug, right? Like, yeah, there's something very human about, um, is, uh, I mean, it's like, it's Mindy's book. Is everyone hanging out without me?

Yeah. That's very human. And, uh, one other thing, I had heard this thing that all television is about family at some core level. Um, I think it's because that's how families would gather around and watch, you know, watch a story together. But the office is a family. You know, it's not a vertical family.

It's not like, you know, genetic family, but it's a horizontal. family. Same with how I met your mother. It's a chosen family. So I think both shows, our family shows, and you see, especially in this episode, like, the way the characters in the office fight, it's very sibling-like. Very, yeah, they're really, they're at each other's throats in a very familial way. What about you, Craig? I just found, I loved it. This is a great episode. I hadn't seen this since it aired. I'm struck by how there's so many similarities to how I'm at your mother. There's so many, as a writer, like, and a showrunner, like, this has so many of the things I'm looking for.

Setups and payoffs. These stealthy little things, these little seeds that you plant, you don't even know it's important to the story. And then at the end, it kind of gut punches you with how important it is. Those little, like, Bluetooth things. Josh and I talk a lot about how technology has caught up with and surpassed us, you know, our TV shows in the last 20 years where it's like, these incredibly little ear things are, it's like people have this now.

But like at the time, that was, that's always hilarious to me when technology sort of comes around but like we call it old tech i know it's like we have a lot of old tech put it that way on how i met your mother but just the idea that that becomes really heartbreaking at the end or really like this real challenge to jim and pam's relationship all born out of what seems like this light little comedic runner about the things in their ears and they're hearing each other's sides of the conversation the fact that that had this emotional punch at the end was so clever we also talk about on how i met your mother the whole series of how i met her mother is a mystery right who's the mother. How does he meet her? What happens? It's this larger series. We discovered that kind of a lot of

the good episodes of how much mother in miniature are mysteries. And I really like the idea that there's something afoot here. There's a Sherlock Holmes case. Something's weird about these customer surveys. At first, do you think they're just like their egos are bruised and they're making it up that there's something weird? No, there actually is something weird. Like there is something nefarious that is happening here. And the idea that they start to solve this mystery case and that she, that like, Mendeu's character really did, like, tamper and sabotage. Like, it actually is true. I loved that.

I love that the through line of the episode is a mystery being solved. I love that the episode ends on a big cliffhanger of, like, what does this mean for Jim and Pam? Yeah, and Michael and, like, the bonding scene where Michael pretends to scold her for having, you know, given the erroneous and files surveys, is really sweet that Michael gets this vulnerable moment to say, no one ever comes to my parties either. I make so much guacamole. Why do I make so much guacamole?

That's my favorite line in the whole episode. And that's the other thing. It's when something's really, really funny and yet has this incredible emotional depth and pathos to it and it's really human. And I think that's the overlap between these two shows. Yeah. You know another overlap. Both have opening credits with songs that are bangers.

Ah. Yes, you're right. Like when the office theme song, when it kicks up and the same with how I made your mother, it's like, okay, okay, like you kind of know. It gets you psyched. Yeah. That's Carter in my band. That's me and Carter. That's our band, the How I Met Your Mother theme song, The Solid. Yeah, that's us. Carter and I met in college playing in bands together. We were writing songs together before we were writing TV together. And we did our band, The Solid's did the theme song. I'm very honored, Josh, to be mentioned in the breath as the office theme song, which I think is a total banger. And I had not heard it in a minute

because I hadn't rewatched in a while. I wrote down one of my notes was, God, this theme song kicks ass. It just gets you so excited that theme song. It's true. Both of them. Every time I hear them, I get happy. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So true. It does. I think one of the things I like about both of the shows is that that redemption moment where there is a character that is struggling with something and there's always that moment where your heart takes a turn. And I thought you guys did that so well. And I love the moment. One of my favorite moments in this episode is between Michael and Kelly and when he shares how much

he struggles. And he gets really honest with her in a way that's not performative for the camera, the way he normally is, Josh. He is kind of like the pick-me like character, but he was just really honest with her. And I used to love that transition moment for Michael.

Yeah. You know, it also occurs to me like a question one might ask themselves is like, why is this film crew still filming these people. Yes. But the way I think about it is like,

like a person with a really good filmmaking eye would be like, these are fascinating people. Like there's a fascinating story going on here. And it's not about kings and queens and it's not about super wealthy people. It's about people. And there were moments, you know, with Jim and Pam over the years that were like, like, Chekhov.

Like they're like, you know, like a you know in the Jane Austen or something like the fingertips graze together and it's just like magic like big firework kind of thing and I feel like the modesty of it is actually what gives it its mythic quality if that makes sense like that it's just really about people in Scranton and if you ever watch um that's why I think I in some ways I love documentaries even more than regular films because watching people behave in in a unselfconscious way Like, if you watch people in the airport or in the grocery store, everyone is a brilliant actor. Like, everyone is a, everyone is giving like a brilliant performance of picking out a melon.

You know, they're like, it's actually doing it. And it's fascinating to watch. The woman who ran my drama program was like, I'm never bored because there are people around. Like, I can just study human behavior, you know. Yeah. That's my favorite thing at an airport. I take a journal and I will just. write down what people are doing.

Yeah. And it's true. I love it. Well, I also think we're fighting the distracting rectangle that is taking us away from that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. By the way, Angela, that looks very suspicious. I just want to be prepared that you may get arrested at an airport at some point.

If you're just taking, if you just have a pad out, you're taking notes. Just be careful. That's all I'm saying. Everyone that listens to Office Ladies knows that I keep a journal. I have read it on our podcast. So I hope that when I am, like, observing people at the airport and jotting things down, some office ladies member will come to my, will come to my aid. If someone's like, write her up, she's up to shenanigans.

She's not on her phone. Yeah. Why is she not on her phone? I just read this book called Tell Me Everything that I just absolutely loved. And the theme of this book is that every person's life has a story worth telling. And so it's a collection of small. snippets of a whole bunch of different people's lives from this town in Maine. And I just, like, couldn't get enough of it because it was, like, people watching in book form.

But it gave me an idea. I'm going to run it by you guys. I think I can't do it. Sort of Craig, based on what you just told, Angela, I had this idea. This is so insane, though. This is so insane. I'm going to sound so crazy. I was like, could I, like, I'd have to do this in a city. You can't do this in a driving situation. But, like, could I? secretly follow a person all day. Stop, we're going to stop you right there. And just observe all of what they do. Like, what did they buy at the store?

Like maybe I start, you know, like, what are they? Oh, I wonder what they're going to cook. Television and films, Jenna Fisher. Oh, my gosh. And it was all, the plan was all captured on the podcast. Yeah, she confessed before she even did it. I can't. I can't. It just, it just, I am similar.

like we're talking about, I am fascinated by the details of people. Well, I mean, that's one of the great things about the office. Like Josh was saying, you feel like you're sneaking in. Josh, I was so struck. I said many similarities between our two shows and that I love and I could say more. The fact that this ends on kind of like a couple of cliffhangers, Angela, the you and the you and Dwight scene at the end, we have to talk about that scene. That was magnificent.

We got to get there at some point. Oh, it's so weird. One thing that's very, very different about our two shows is we used music to be very very emotionally manipulative to the audience. We were, we were music nerds. Like I said, Carter and I, like we are, our connection was musical before it was writing words on a page. Josh, it would, Josh is a complete music nerd and would come and pitch us songs that we'd put on the show. I was really struck watching it again, watching the office for the first time in a few years, the quietness, the fact that there's no music, the fact that the soundtrack

is the sounds of an office, it's breathing, it's papers moving, it's keyboards clacking. There's something so hypnotic, wonderfully hypnotic, that really draws you in. You really, it really is voyeuristic. You really are there just spying on people. And it just works so profoundly well to make you, you're in those characters' shoes, and you're not being told how to feel. You're just there. I heard about this thing that's taking off in Scandinavia, and it's called Slow TV. Have you guys heard about this? It's basically like long, uninterrupted scenes, scenes where people are in nature. There's a story being told, but it's like scenes in nature that are just allowed to I think like as things get so fast paced, people are longing for just like slow it down, like

slow me down, slow this story down, give me a moment to breathe. And I sometimes feel that after being on my phone too much, just like, oh my God, take this thing away from me and let me just, I don't know, tell me like a longer story or something. Can I say one thing just going back to what Jenna's criminal plot to follow this person. To follow somebody for a day, yeah, please. So have you guys ever heard of, I think it's called the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows? It's this book that is such a good gift book, if you want to get a gift for someone or yourself. But this guy invented new words.

Like he took like, what's it called when you take like part of one word and part of another? Was he Michael Scott? No. But both our shows, that is another similarity. We invent a lot of words. There's a lot of new term. But there's a definition in there of a word he calls, I think it's called Sonder. And it's the feeling, the sudden realization that everyone passing you on the street and

everyone in every car on the highway that you're driving, each of those people has just as robust and interior life as you do and just as fascinating a story as you do. And I think there's a tendency, like we all kind of, the ego main characters us, right? and everyone else's background or everyone else is like in the way they're just traffic right but like to really key into every single one of those cars if you really you know illegally followed them like Jenna's going to do like you'd find you'd find something like gold you'd find something golden like something heartbreaking something fascinating some new weird thing but yeah it's almost unbearable when you think about how complicated and complex that that every individual is

can i just say something to our office ladies audience everyone this this definition of sonder that we have just been given from josh radner these are the types of nuggets that you're going to get when you listen to how we made your mother like i will sit with that thought for days and this happens to me all the time all the time when i listen to your podcast you you you offer something that i'm just like oh i'm just going to i'm going to digest that for so long. I freaking love that. I think all the time when I'm walking or driving, I'll think I'll see someone on the side of the road and I'll think that is the only time in both of our lifetimes that will ever be in the same place at the same time, me and that person

and I don't know their name. I don't know anything about them. And yet in this world of billions of people, there was a day when we were in the same place at the same time. And just how like magnificent is that? You're like, if this guy doesn't catch me stalking him for rest of this day. This will be the only moment our eyes make eye contact. It's so true, though. I might do it, you guys. I don't know with this conversation. Do you think there's any world where you could just ask for permission before? No, because then it might be performative. Yes, that's right. You know, then they might, they might choose healthier foods than they would.

I think they did this and it was called jury duty. It was a series on television. which was written by two of the office writers. That's right. That's right. That's right. Brilliant show. You guys, you could just have a life pivot where you become a detective.

Well, Angela, we want to be mom detectives. Maybe this is part of why. That's a great show. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

We think so. We're solving crimes no one cares about. And we always have snacks. And we almost never solve it. And the snacks. At the end of every episode, our tagline is we may never know. We may never know.

That's it. There's no payoff, Craig. Sorry. There's a lot of set up with no payoff. Believe me. Just stretch it out. We did nine years of stretching it out. Yeah. Well, I want to talk a little bit about how you guys shot the show because the office and how I met your mother, they both started around the same time. And I feel like both of our shows did a new kind of thing. Like the office did the office did the, the whole documentary style, messy camera work kind of spy shot thing. No audience. Yeah, no audience. Your show was shot in the three camera style, but was not filmed in front of an audience,

but it had a laugh track, but also you did some single camera stuff. How did it all work? Yeah, it was, we created, Carter and I, Carter is co-creator of the show with me. We really didn't know what we were doing. that's the biggest thing. We stumbled in really not knowing how to do this. We weren't like these grizzled old like sitcom hacks kind of guys. We had come from like late night television. We worked on an animated show, a couple short-lived sitcoms. We really had never written a multi-camera sitcom. So we wrote this pilot that we thought was great because it moved. It was lots of short scenes. It popped around. It played with time. And we gave it to our producer. And she was like, this is unproducible in front of an audience from the human beings. Like this is like how you, we hope you understand. that you cannot do this like friends. We're like, can't we just to keep the audience for a long time and do a lot of pre-shoots?

And they were like, you will have, it will be a hostage situation. Like the audience will just be there for three days. I'll be trying to escape. Like, it's like this, you have to break this down in a different way. And Pam Fryman and Cesar Greenberg, our brilliant director and producer who did the entire series, really came up with a way to over three days, shoot the show, kind of to look like a sitcom

and kind of to look at times like a single count. We went out onto New York Street. We went on locations. We did lots of fun sort of cinematic storytelling. And we really let ourselves think about it as not just a half-hour sitcom on CBS, which, again, we were. We were, our lead-in was King of Queens when we launched, and our lead-out was two and a half men. And we were such a weird black sheep. Our numbers were not nearly as big as the show before us and the show after us, which means you're the dip.

You're like the hammock. You're like the, you're bringing the whole ratings of the night down. But we were always good. You know that move? We were that as well. Oh, yeah. You know that move. But we were great in 18 to 34, which CBS was looking for.

They were not doing great in that younger category. And we eventually, over those first few years, started to become like their number one show in 18 to 34. And they realized, well, not as many people are watching this as watched these other shows, but more young people are watching this than watch those other shows. And that was our survival. Well, I love how it shot. even now. And I think that's one of the reasons, if I were to guess, why it, quote, unquote, holds up so well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's why I spoke to younger viewers. In that way. Brian Eno, you know, the ambient music pioneer, Brian Eno, he has this thing about how new forms are created when the old form can't contain what the bigger expression is. So, for instance, distortion in a guitar was because the amps got blown out.

and then it became the sound that everyone was actually chasing. So now you have like, you're trying to mimic the sound of blowing out an amp, and that becomes a whole new genre. But it was actually a kind of mistake or something that couldn't contain it. So it's almost like Carter and Craig's naivete actually created a new form. Yeah. They kind of didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know we couldn't do it.

Yeah. And I feel like I saw it in other things, too, after watching your show, especially like when you would have a character say something and then it would cut to a different time to the other person reacting, you know, like you would sort of set up like Ted would say something and then it would cut to Robin's reaction to Lily or things like that. And it zipped along so fun. And I feel like I've seen that in movies, but I feel like the first time I saw it really was watching your show. Yeah. Most multicameras don't move that way. I love that the office moves that way. I feel like we should say like I'm a huge fan of the office. I watched every single episode of The Office. I watch it door to doored. I'm such a huge fan. I wanted to ask all of you this question, you too, Josh, because I don't know this, the answer for you. Were you guys able to while you were on TV, while you were on the office, you come, you're shooting the office, you come home. Do you watch other sitcoms? And I'm honored, Jenna, that we were, you were watching

how I met your mother, I guess, which I never really knew that you were at that time until now. I would come home from working on how much mother all day. And the only show, the only comedy I would watch is The Office. I love The Office and my wife and I watch every episode. I could not watch any other comedies because my brain would start to compare to them. Ah, they're a bigger hit than us. Or we're better than that. I think we do this thing better than that one, but this thing we don't do as well. So I was not able to just enjoy watching comedies. I would watch like dark hour dramas and like weird movies. I could not like watch another comedy except the office. I loved and I watched in real time at the moment. But what is that for you guys? Did you guys,

Were you guys able to, like, enjoy sitcoms while you were in one? Yeah, I was. You were. I mean, oh, yeah. I watched Community. I watched Will & Grace. I watched 30 Rock, loved 30 Rock, arrested development. Yeah, I love comedy.

So I was happy to come home and watch more people doing great comedy. That's great. I don't know what's wrong with me that I couldn't do it. Well, you're a creator. You're looking at it from a creator's point of view. I was I don't know why this is so I look back now and I'm like what was I doing I was still doing improv theater in the evenings I would have a show oh my god I mean I was like what am I doing those early seasons I'd be so tired because we'd get done and then I'd be like I got a nine o'clock show I better go to your comedy now we're doing the office to support your improv habit yes but yeah and then I would watch shows here and there too but I I wasn't afraid to watch them though I was enjoying it for sure. I felt like I was part of this creative community.

And we would, you know, I'd watch an episode of community, the show community. And then we would have to go and be backstage with them at some NBC upfront thing. And I'd be like, look at us. It's like back in theater days when you're backstage with the different shows. And it felt, it felt smaller to me in the beginning because maybe because there wasn't streaming, maybe because we were on this tiny lot. We weren't even on a major studio. a lot, you know. Josh, I have a random tangent quickly. Yeah. How did we meet? Did we meet at one of those

like events? Here's my memory. My memory is that one day I was invited to do a reading of your screenplay at your place. Right. And I went. Yeah. And I did it. And it was so good. And I, my memory is that that is where I met you. And I don't know if like an agent set that up or something. I, But it was the most wonderful evening. Oh, thank you. Reading with other actors, your great screenplay, and you were so nice. I feel like you played guitar for us. No, I didn't play guitar back then.

That's a, that's an inserted memory. But was music playing music? Probably. I was a beautiful place. I remember that. I was like, this is so stylish. Is that where we met? My memory is I do remember you doing that reading. but I think I had met you at like an event.

And because I had met you at the event, I think I felt comfortable, well, probably not super comfortable, but comfortable enough to either track you down or I can't remember how I got hold of you. Same. But you did end up in my living room reading my screenplay. Yes.

Which you then went on to make. Yeah, it was happy thank you more, please, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I then, for years, I think we would just see each other at like the night before party, like that kind of thing, like the Emmys and the, we were just on the circuit at the same time back when those things were interesting to go to. Circuit buddies, so to speak.

But I felt like the whole, I mean, I knew Mindy a little bit before from New York, like theater days. And I knew Rain because I went to NYU to the grad acting program. And when I was there, he was directing, did you guys ever see the new Bozina, that clown show he directed? No, but I wish I had. It was genius. like so incredible. And he directed that.

So he was always at NYU when I was there. So I knew him. But I always felt connected to your guy's show because one, we were on the air at the same time and going through some of the strange life-altering weird vertigo that anyone goes through. But also I felt like you guys had like theater roots. Like there were a lot of like theater actors in your show.

You know, there was a... And even when I was watching customer survey, like I was like, this is like such like old. timey, like the, um, the, the, the fake call between Michael and Dwight and the buttlicker scene. William Butlicker. Yeah. It's so good. That is like, that might as well be like Shakespearean clowns or like Hamadia del Arte. Like it's such like classic. And then they start taking it very serious. The stakes get really high and there's literally zero stakes. Like a million. It just struck me. Like so old timey, three stooge like Shakespeare clown. Like, like, old,

just in and we do that like some of the Barney Ted stuff could get like that you know in our show and I always love that feeling that you're connected to like actors from the like 16th century or something like like this is an ancient art you know I always love that feeling yes that's how we met that's how we met it's so funny to me though that you mentioned that Barney and Ted could be sort of like Jim and Dwight in that scene yeah because I don't know if you've seen this online but there are there's a whole article that says the office characters and they're how I met your mother counterparts. Oh my God. Wow. That's amazing. And they do say Barney is Dwight and that that Ted is Jim. Yeah. You know, it was so funny. When I was watching the episode, the looks, Jenna, that

you and John get to give to the camera were like looks that Ted would have given to the camera were the camera there. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Ted was allowed. Yeah, yeah. If Ted was allowed that convention, he would constantly be looking at the camera like Jim and Pam, you know? Yeah. He just, it was like the camera wasn't there. Although we have this theory, we're working on a theory that Barney was the only character who knew he was in a sitcom. Yeah.

Because the way Neil walks into a room, sometimes it's like he's expecting entrance applause. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Well, it's, Barney and Dwight are so similar because they are so deeply living in their own delusional narrative. They have created and curated their own words. that they're just utterly inhabiting and like they intersect with other people but they're the

main character in this whole other world that it's not the real world and it's that's why there's such fun characters to write and why the Neil and Rain were so amazing because they just committed so a billion percent to those characters realities they're just in a different movie than everybody else and they have their own code of ethics and rules that they honor like they live by them yes This is what the internet says about them. Are you ready? Yeah. It says this, both characters are defined by their over-the-top personalities, rigid adherence to their own elaborate rulebooks, and pursuit of power and success, though, with vastly different moral codes.

Yeah. It's eerie how many. I think there are so many similarities between these two shows. Because, like, we had a couple on the show that was a really lovely, cute couple that was still funny when they were together as a couple. They didn't need to be fighting all the time. They were funny as a couple. You enjoyed watching them. They didn't need a problem every week.

They didn't need an argument every week. In fact, fans would get upset when there would be trouble between these two characters, which I know Jim and Pam, it was like, people did not want to see too much go wrong between Jim and Pam. And Marshall and Lily on our show, Jason and Allison, like, they were a beloved couple. Like, when we were all in, I really do feel like we all went to TV college at the same time because we were like, and I felt a very deep connection to your show because it really was almost the only. at Com. I could watch. I don't know why, again, what's wrong with me? She talked to my therapist about this later. But you guys, like, I felt such a connection to Jim

and Pam, because Marshall and Lily on the show are based on my wife and I. Like, we went to college. We met, I was 18. She was like 16 and a half because she had skipped here in high school. And we were these kids. That and a half is really important. I know. Yeah, it is. We were babies. And we became like, we were the old married couple by our mid-20s. We were like, grandparents compared to all of these single people out there. And so Marshall and Lily are like so close to my heart. So I think part of the reason I could watch The Office and just love it was I loved Jim and Pam so much. It was such a like I loved their connection so much. And it's really hard to write a happy couple that gets along and make it funny. I think you guys really, really did that.

And then there's this whole thing where Dwight is kind of Barney. There's a lot of Jim and Ted overlaps. Like it really, it struck me watching this episode of The Office. How many similarities And similarities in tone, too, where things start off as little jokes. And then by the end of the episode, there's this stealthy switcheroo where there's like a great dramatic twist that comes out of some little seed that's been planted. The little Bluetooth earpieces are a fun little bit and a fun running gimmick. And at the end, they create this huge dramatic moment. That is so true.

I love that. So I have a question, Josh, if you were in the scene and you had an idea for a line, like, were you able to just say to the writer on set or Craig or someone, um, hey, can I try this alt? Or what if I spin it this way? Was that, did you have that sort of collaboration? Yes, for sure. Like, I mean, one of the, I think we talked about this, Craig,

but one of the only ones that I'm sure made it on the air was I had to drop off a letter that I then regretted putting in the mailbox. And I climbed into the mailbox and then got stuck in the mailbox. Was that? I remember this episode, yeah. And, but I asked either Craig or Carter, whoever was on set, I said, because nailed it was a catchphrase. So I said, can I just drop it in the mail and say,

mailed it instead of nailed it, right? And that ended up, I think that ended up in the episode. Yeah, that was in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But most of the time, I knew how tightly scripted the things were. There wasn't, it was like a Jenga, you know, it was like the moment you fattened up something, it would be like, it was so dependent upon the rhythm and the quickness of the thing that it never felt like,

we have all the time in the world, you know? Yeah. Because the shooting of it was always, the schedule was always very tight, as it always is. Yeah. But we didn't have those kind of breaths that you guys had. It was a different pace show. Yeah, and you wanted to leave room for those emotional moments at the end, like the end of this episode, it has some moments where clearly room was left.

Like, Angela, just to get to, I love the scene with you and Dwight at the end and everything that's going on between the two of you as that farm is booked is where the wedding going to be, there's two great, like, ticking clock, like a little ticking time bombs that are started at the end of this episode, too little, what's going to happen with Jim and Pam, this guy's clearly flirting with her, or at least there's this enticement, is she going to move to, is she going to stay in New York, right? And then there's this other, and I really didn't see it coming. I forgot this happened. The Dwight Angela stuff is this other like, pip, and a little ticking time bomb has been said, like a little fuse has been lit. And it's two of them at the

very end of the episode that carry you into the next episode. We tried to do that as often as we cut on how I met your mother just because you had to wait a week, right? People weren't binging these shows. You had people tune in one week from tonight for the exciting next part of the story. What was that scene with the two of you was amazing? You and Rain in that scene, just making the deepest eye contact of all time. What was that? What was that scene like to shoot? But it's very intense. It was great. Very intense. A lot with a lot with just a look on our show. And so much of our show was reacting, you know, and that definitely for the supporting cast. you would have cast members that were making a lot of the action and the big moments happen.

And then the rest of us were reacting to it. And for that love triangle with Dwight and Andy, it was so delicious. I loved every single second of it. I was like, give me more. What else? What else can I be a part of here? And that was really fun for a supporting cast when they got to be sort of in the main story. But I loved it.

Angela always loved Dwight. That's how I played it. You know, we talk, and Josh, and I'm sure you have this process too, but Jen and I both had our own story for our character that was part of our truth in whatever moment. So if Angela isn't always just a bitch, there's many layers to her. And so my truth was I always loved him. Yeah. And he put my cat in a freezer, and it took me a long time to get over that. and poor Andy was just sort of in the middle, you know?

Yeah. But I loved those scenes. Can I tell you my two favorite things from that final scene that I just love so much? Okay, so the first one is I love how it shot. I love how the camera is singles on Angela and Dwight and there's all the eye contact. But then very slowly you see Andy Creighton to Angelus. single. I don't.

Because he's, and it's just like, it makes me laugh every time. And the other thing is, I love how when Dwight is showing them the book of like what can happen when they get married at Shrewd farms, there's a photo of a couple being married while standing in their own graves. And that is a callback to like some talking head that Dwight had about how Shrewts always get married standing in their own graves. Oh, my God. So this just photograph is just a quick callback to that.

But then in the finale episode of the office, Angela and Dwight get married at Shrewd Farms standing in their own graves. That's amazing. And I just love the symmetry of that, of the one, two, three. You had to wait nine years for that to pay off, but it does. I felt like our writers were so good at that. We're in this incredibly small group of people who can say we got to do that. You got to do one thing in one year, another thing to keep it alive three years later or whatever.

And then four years later, how many years later, you get to pay it off in this completely different way. You guys did that all the time. We got to do that. We really got to do that. And we did keep track of that. We had a running list of things we had to pay off like that. There's another one in this episode, too. It's Kelly at the very beginning says, Michael's telling everyone he's engaged to Holly.

And she's like, I got my dress. I hope it's okay. It's white. Which is she wears a white dress to Phyllis's wedding. You know, so it's like all the ways that our writers kept track of that. Kelly has been waiting to wear white to somebody's wedding to steal their thunder. Well, it's a good thing, you know, they say in the theater, like, if there's a gun, if you see a gun in the first act, it has to go off in the third act, right?

But this is like, if you see something in the third season, it has to go off in the ninth season. Like, this is like really playing the long game. And I love that I didn't have to be the storehouse of wisdom of like, I, I love that there were a team of writers that were keeping track of that stuff because I would have lost track of all that. I loved your whole slap runner, you know? It's like, I just love that. That's one of those things, Josh, that we can't do in real life, right?

We can't have the slap bet and get to use the slaps whenever we want them. And just like all the times that, like, Jim and Dwight slapped each other, just those ridiculous moments. That are so fun. The slap bet was from real life. Carter and his high school, it was high, the keyword high school. Carter and one of his friends in high school had a long-running series of slap-bats going and would just slap the crap out of each other to pay them off. But I think you have to be in high school for that to work.

I think that ends at graduation. Before we finish, I just want to say besides the guacamole line, which is an all-timer, Dwight saying to Kelly, you juk the stats cupcake is also one of my favorite. That's an unbelievable good line. That was what I wrote down. He did the stats cupcake. Well, guys, thank you for joining us. our podcast and our network. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you. So great to be with you guys today and in general. Thank you for having us on the team. Well, we are so thrilled and we know Office Ladies is just going to love, love your show. You're doing such a fantastic job. We feel honored to have you be part of our network. Thank you guys.

Oh, thanks. Yeah. This is just, I don't know if people, you know, know how this started, but I just called Jenna to talk about rewatch podcasts and to see if maybe she wanted to hop on our show as a guest and talk about the weirdness of playing one character for a decade and all this stuff. And then she said, who's producing you guys? And I said, well, Craig and I are basically doing that, you know, we're doing this with a small team on our own. And she said, well, Angela and I are kind of expanding our empire. And we'd love to, uh, did I say, you didn't say empire. Did you say empire? I like it. She was twisting a fake mustache. And she said,

We're trying to... As she was following you. I was like, I turned around. I was like, where was just right there? I was like, oh, Josh, I know. I know what you put up to. You and Craig Thomas. I've been following you both as you're going through his trash.

Well, it was really like, it was such a... It was just one of those things that, like, oh, yeah, that makes all this sense in the world. And then I think you guys listened to an episode or two. And then there was a much more formal invitation to join you guys. And it wasn't like, we didn't have to deliberate. It was like, oh, no, no, no, these are exactly who we want to be aligned with. And we just love what you guys have been up to. And we're just thrilled to be working alongside you.

So thank you so much. One last thing before we go, Craig, we want to give a plug for your book. It's called That's Not How It Happened. You gave us advanced copies. We're both reading it and loving it. It's a beautiful book. Do you want to tell us about it? Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, it's inspired in part by my own family and by my journey raising my son, who has a rare genetic syndrome where he has some learning disabilities and some health challenges. And some of that material combined with some of my years of working and writing in Hollywood, and both of those elements are in this book. It is a book, the sort of a quickie plot line is the mom and a family, kind of like my own, and it's told from four perspectives, a mom, a dad, and two kids. I love that.

Yeah, it's very perspective-shifty, which is sort of similar to both of our shows in various ways, right? There's some office and hymium in here. But yeah, the mom has written a memoir about raising her son who has Down syndrome in the book, who is now a young adult facing that huge question of what does an adult life look like for a young adult with a disability who's getting outside of school and what's next? And a lot of parents like me call that the cliff. School ends and then what happens after the cliff. And this is sort of the novels about that. And the novel, the mom has written a memoir about raising her son to this point, and Hollywood comes a knock in to make a movie out of the memoir. And in the process of trying to get this movie made of their lives,

it raises all kinds of questions about whose story is this? How do we all see our lives? How do four members of a family tell their own story? It's funny. It fits into a lot of what we've been talking about on this episode, right? Everyone's in their own story. Everyone's the main character in their own story. The book is called That's Not How It Happened because you're constantly switching in and out of these four perspectives into these character's shoes and out of them to hear what they think the story is and how the next person that's going to speak sees it completely differently. And so it's a comedy. It's a dromedy, I guess you would call it.

And it's my favorite thing I've ever written besides how I met your mother. And it means so much to me that you guys are reading it and would support it. So thank you. Yes, yes. You guys, get a copy. That's not how it happened. I'm going to put a link in our stories. It's out now.

Can confirm that it's an incredible. An incredibly fun, wonderful read. You know, when your dear friend hands you and says, hey, will you read my novel, there's always a little nervousness. Like, uh-oh. I hope I like it. This is too long to be bad. This is going to be really bad.

I was just delighted by every page of this book. I think it's such a wonderful story. It's so moving, so funny. There's not a dull moment. It's just a page turner, tearjerker. It's fantastic. It means the world to me coming from you guys. So much hard. Also, I should say, I'm bringing a lead here. Josh Radner and Kobe Smolders are read the two parent roles in the audiobook.

The four perspectives are two parents and then two kids. That's fantastic. So how I met your mother fans, please know there is a little hymnium love in the audio book of this novel. Oh, I love that. Well, we'll definitely share all of this with our audience. We are just so thrilled Josh and Craig to have you on the Office Ladies Network. You guys go listen to how we made your mother podcast right now streaming wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I loved that. So did I. Also, I loved the super fan of customer survey.

And lady, I feel like since we didn't get to talk about some of the new stuff that we discovered, I want to do a full breakdown of that episode. And we'll share all of our tidbits. Yeah, I'd like that too. I mean, you and I really dug into it. And then we were so excited to talk to with Josh and Craig. We didn't really get into it as much as. I think we thought we were going to.

Well, let's do it, and then we'll put it out next week. So it'll be like a really nice companion for today's episode. Oh, I like that. And everyone, be sure and check out our interview on How We Made Your Mother is dropping as a bonus episode on the How We Made Your Mother feed tomorrow. Yeah. Go there now and click subscribe so you don't miss it. It's really fun.

We watched their pilot episode, and then we chat all about it. Yeah. All right, you guys, have a great day. Don't be a butt licker. We'll see. in next week. Thank you for listening to Office Ladies. Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela

Kinsey. Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer and our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbico. Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis. Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz. Our theme song is Ruppertree by Creed Bratton. I don't know.