Office Ladies - Mike Schur is Back!

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

This week on Office Ladies 6.0, Jenna and Angela welcome back their pal Mike Schur for a deep dive into his time on The Office. Mike revisits episodes he wrote, revealing the challenge of making Michael Scott (occasionally) appear competent, the tricky business of writing Karen, and why Rashida Jones was so perfect for the role. Plus, Mike talks about his new book, Big Fan, which explores the strange and wonderful world of fandom, and shares what he and co-author Joe Posnanski discovered while traveling the world to understand what makes us love the things we love. So grab your favorite team jersey, embrace your inner superfan… and enjoy!Office Ladies Website - Submit a fan question for Around the Town, Chit Chat, and Second Drink favorite moment: https://officeladies.com/submitaquestion Follow Us on Instagram: OfficeLadiesPodFollow Us on YouTubeFollow Us on TikTok

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Hi. Hello there. What's up? What's up with you? I don't know. You kind of got that look that, I don't know, is something going on? You have that look. You're like, ew. No, I'm just excited to be here because we're coming back from a little bit of a vacation. It's so funny. And so I'm just like excited to be sitting here face to face. You're just happy. And I'm like, what's going on? No, I know. What if you've been up to? I haven't seen you in two weeks, lady.

Oh my gosh. Well, okay, our kids are doing these summer like college programs where you go. go to a university. They had to apply and they go to a university. Isbel and Jack are doing this? They live in a dorm for four weeks. They take a course. They get three college credits out of it. You know, they're going to be seniors in high school next year. But this is like a true like, hey, here's what college is going to be like a little bit, right? It's a little practice run. Because you like moved them into the dorm rooms. Like they're getting a whole dorm room thing. Oh yeah. They each have roommates that they didn't know until they got. there and signed in. They found out who their roommate was. You know, we had to do that thing where

we got bins and we labeled everything and we packed it all up and we got there and the two different dorms they're in. One of them, the line for the elevator to move in was so long because everyone showed up with their parents. So Isabel's on the fourth floor. Josh was like, let's just take the stairs. Lady. What? Yes. We moved her in just walking upstairs all day, carrying things. And Josh is very fit. I am not as fit. You are fit, but there's a difference between like, like, you have a type of, like, tennis fitness fitness. Yes. It doesn't translate to, like, carrying heavy things and climbing. Right. Anyway, so I am sore today, but we got them moved in. By the time you guys hear this, they will have completed their program. But that's what I've been up to.

I've been packing up two teenagers and taking them off to this college and getting them moved into a dorm room. And now they're there. And like we get calls like Isabel's like, I'm going to do laundry, but they don't take coins anymore. I'm like, what? How do you do laundry? I would save up my coins. Of course, a Ziploc bag full of coins for the parking meters and the laundry. I didn't even think about it.

It's all an app now. There's like the laundry app. Don't get me started. Do you know how many apps they've had to download? There's so many apps. We don't want to look at our phones that much, but like you need an app for everything. We got a garage door. And the garage door guy was like, do you want an app on your phone to open and close your garage

door? I said I don't. You know what I want? I want a freaking button that I hold on my hand. Give me a clicker. He was like, subtle down, lady. I couldn't believe it. I triggered you asking you about an app.

But I was like, well, you did. I know. Everything's an app now. Yeah. Anyway, it's good to see you. you've been? I've been good. You know, Lee's movie Nimrods comes out very soon. I know. And we are trying to figure out our red carpet looks because lady, the whole family is walking the red carpet. And we've never done this before. So number one, I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Like,

what is that? How do I prepare them for that experience? What's the impact of that experience going to be? But then also, what are we wearing? Like, are you going to coordinate? These are the questions we're asking. I don't think so. That feels too complicated. It feels like a... It feels like a Christmas card. Right. Right. You don't need to be a Christmas card tableau.

And I love a coordinating Christmas card. Don't get me wrong. Oh, I know. But maybe for the red carpet, you all have your own looks. Well, we all have our own ideas. I know Isabel did a red carpet once and you gave me her dress that she wore. It's beautiful. And you were like, one day if Harper ever needs it and she was around this same age.

Yes, my friend had produced the movie Mulan. the live action. Yeah. And we went and saw it. Me and Isbel and Jack, and Jack wore a suit and Isabel wore a dress. It was really cute. We got it at the mall.

It's really a cute dress. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Well, unfortunately, the dress doesn't fit. I was worried about that because I gave it to you like two years ago, and I'm like, I don't know if it's going to fit her. Yeah. I don't even know where to get clothes for myself for the red carpet.

I know. I don't know what we're all going to wear. I hate red carpets. I know. I'm excited for the movie. I will be on the red carpet with you. Yes, you will. I don't have an outfit.

No. We should really be thinking about this because it's happening. I know. It's exciting. The movie comes out August 14th, everybody, in theaters worldwide. Worldwide. Global. Global release.

Oh, but also, lady, they are doing special early screenings of Nimrods in select theaters. It's happening on Tuesday, August 11th. So everyone, check the listings at your local theaters and see if they have one of the early screenings, my folks, my sister, and some of my high school friends, they all got tickets to one of the early screenings in St. Louis. Aw. I know. I'm so excited for them to see it.

Well, it's such a fun movie to see with a group of people in the theater. Yes, in the theater, because of course there's all the great music in it, too. You want to hear that and see that on the big screen. So everyone, please grab your friends and check out Nimrods. That's so fun. We're going to be in a movie, lady. Together. Together.

In the theaters. exciting. It's so exciting. We've been on a TV show together. Yep. We have written a book together. We have done a podcast together. We have never been in a movie together. Oh, my gosh. The last thing would be like if we did a piece of theater together. Oh, that would be so cool. I don't want the lead. That's too much pressure. I want to tell you right now. You can be the lead. I would just like to be someone that makes a lot of entrances. I think those are so fun. Like, I love it when I go see a play. The person I want to be is like, like, let's say you're at a restaurant. And it's a waitress that comes in and out. And she has a little business and she says something that she's back out. And then she's back in with some more, you know, something else she's caring and saying, I want to be that person. You know, when we were in New York, I saw this play called The Ballasters. Oh my gosh, lady.

It's so funny. It's about like a neighborhood association meeting. It happens in like a living room. And it's a series of meetings. And it's all about whether or not they should put a stop sign. on a road or not. I would love that. It does not disappoint, and it's so good, and it's filled with all these amazing characters,

and there are, like, two characters that, like, in another 15 years, you would be so perfect as great entrances, just, like, drop mic comedic timing. You'd love it. Okay. Yeah. I'll put it on my list. Okay. And there's, like, two older women in this, and we could pick which one we each want

to be, and that we can be in a play together. when they revive the balusters. Okay. Okay. There it is. We figured it out. You guys, we had a lot of banter here because we haven't seen each other, but we have a fantastic episode today.

Yes. We had the most amazing conversation with writer, producer, director, and author, Mike Scher. He was in studio with us, and we cannot wait for you to hear this interview. It's so fun. He's so smart. It's great. We talk a lot about the office. So you know, you guys, last time when Mike was here, it was in 2022, episode 107 of Office Ladies.

It's a great listen if you haven't heard it. He zoomed into the studio. We didn't actually have him in person that time. So it was really fun to be sitting across the table from him today. And in that first interview, we talked with him about how he got his job on the office. We talk a lot about him playing the character, Moes. Yes. And what that was like.

And also what he learned in the writer's room and what he learned from Greg Daniels about writing comedy. That is a great interview. I didn't think we could top that with him. And then today, we dive into his episodes that he wrote. Yes, we asked him if we could just sort of take him through some of the episodes that he wrote and his memory for detail and lines and specificity and just how a story was crafted or how a joke was crafted. Oh my gosh. And he was so generous with his time. And then we had an amazing conversation about his book that just came out. It's called Big Fan. He wrote it with his friend Joe Posnansky, who is a sports writer.

And they just traveled around the world trying to discover what makes you a fan of something like sports, music, TV. Yes. And what that phenomenon of fandom is to us as human beings. It's a great conversation. Yes. And in the Mike sure way that he is, he just has a way of understanding people and what makes us human. He's a great observer. Yes. Yes. And so we just can't wait for you to hear it. Well, why don't we take a break? We will save our chit chats and around the town for our next episode because we thought we were going to chat with Mike for about 25, 30 minutes. You guys, we talked for an hour, but it's so good. And you're going to love it. We want you to hear it all.

So we'll take a break and we'll be right back with Mike Scher. Hello. Hello. Hi, Mike. I am so happy to see both of you. How have you been? How is everything? We're good.

Yeah? How are you? I'm great. It's so great to see you. You look literally the same. I was thinking the same thing about you. I don't know if you're supposed to say that to people. No, look, we all are aging exactly the same rate.

One day per day. And when I see people from the office, I think like, yeah, that's how the person looks. Like if you've known the person continuously, they just stay the same in your brain. But you know what's crazy? So I was cleaning my sag award the other day. You were what? First of all, incredible way to start a sentence. I know, right?

I've never cleaned fine. I was dusting. You've never cleaned your sag award? I had an idiot. Did you not consult the manual for proper maintenance? I haven't. And also it has a tush. So, you know.

It does. It has, anyway. Is it like taking care of an infant a little bit? I don't know. I haven't thought about it. Go on, Jenna. I was moving things on my bookshelf in my office. And, you know, so I was cleaning my SAG Award.

And I looked at the date on it. And it said 2006. And I was like, wait. Whoa. That was 20 years ago? 20 years ago. What? Yeah.

I know. We're passing all those milestones now where you see things on social media that's like the 25th anniversary of something. And it's hard to believe. But yeah. I mark this every June 1st. because I moved to LA on June 1st, 2004, to start working on the show. And so every June 1st, I'm like, oh, wait, how many years has it been that I've lived here? And now it's 22 years that I've been here.

And we started working on the show, I think, like, right after July 4th weekend, maybe, the writers met for the first time. And that is inconceivable to me. I mean, it feels like both forever ago and also yesterday. Yeah. Well, listen, the last time you came on the show, we talked a lot about, like, how you got your job on the show. and how you became Mo's and all those things. But we didn't get a chance to dig into some of the specific episodes that you wrote. Great, let's do it.

So we were thinking maybe we could talk about a few. So speaking of the early days, the Alliance, it's season one of the office, and you guys are trying to establish what is the American version of this? Right. How do we make it our own thing? Can you take me back to that time? Yeah. So that first season, it was just me, Mindy, and BJ,

the only full-time writers. And then the late Lester Lewis, RIP, was a consultant, and Larry Wilmore was a consultant, and Paul Lieberstein was a consultant. And it was a very small crew. And in classic Greg Daniels fashion, we came up with 270 episode ideas to make five episodes. And I want to say the alliance, one of the things that is going on in the first season of the British office is the threat of downsizing and the threat of consolidation and a branch closing and that sort of stuff. It sort of runs in the background. And Greg wanted to maintain that because it was and is such a part of like corporate life that you're always like, is someone going to buy our company and are we all going to lose our jobs? And so he wanted that theme to run through the season in a low grade

way. And the simple nugget of the idea was that in this kind of vague threat of something bad happening in the office that because Survivor was such a big deal at the time. Like, people forget, like Survivor had debuted, I think, in the year 2000 or something. And around 2004, it was like the biggest deal. It still is a huge deal, but it was the biggest deal. And I want to say it was BJ, my memory might be failing me, who pitched the idea of just Dwight asking Jim to form an alliance with him, Survivor style. And we like that idea.

Obviously, like Jim and Dwight, famous antagonist, but the breakthrough was. that someone pitched, I'd like to take credit for it, but I don't know if I can, that Jim's response was absolutely I do. Like instantly. I was going to ask you about that because that's like such a famous couplet that comes back later. It was absolutely I do. And then the talking head that comes after it is anytime Dwight asked me to do anything,

my response is absolutely, you know, because Jim's sole goal in life in that moment is to like enjoy this mundane business. environment in any way he possibly can. Just escape the boredom. Just escape the boredom. And it's one of the great lessons of writing that I've learned a hundred thousand times, which it's a classic improv thing, right? It's like yes and it.

Like just say yes. If you say no, the story ends. If you say yes, you get a story. So as soon as we came up with the idea that Dwight makes an absurd request of Jim and Jim's immediate response is yes, then, okay, we're off and running. So that was the like simple nugget of the story. And then it became like, how does Jim enjoy like torturing Dwight and enjoying his life in this boring day and sharing it with Pam, of course. My favorite scene that came out of it is the one that's sort of a spy scene from up top looking down at them in the parking lot.

And they're standing outside and it was, as it always was in the valley, 111 degrees. But it was supposed to be like November in Scranton. And so the two of them just are grabbing their arms in the classic pose of person trying to warm. Which we would then do 50 more times over the course of the first couple seasons. And having that like private kind of survivor-like conversation about like, you know, how to play things and what they've learned and all that stuff. So that was it. It was what made that show so special to me was like, that's what you needed for a story. You didn't need a gigantic huge plot.

You needed one of the ridiculous characters to make. a request of a sane character and have the same character decide to go along with it for the day. And that was it. That's a really great way to look at the office now. Like the next time I watch an episode and be like, okay, who's the ridiculous character asking the same character to do something? Yeah. And it's usually Michael is the ridiculous one asking Pam or Jim or someone to do something. Go to Hooters or whatever it was. It was either a sane person doing something sane and watching the lunatics respond or vice versa, like a lunatic doing something lunatic, and then the same person's responding.

You also wrote Valentine's Day. Yeah. And this puts the character of Michael Scott in New York City. Yes. There are so many funny moments. What was it like to do that? Like you're from the East Coast. And so seeing New York City through Michael Scott's eyes.

So that was season two. Season two. And it was the beginning of Greg wanting to expand the world of the show occasionally, rarely, but saying like we can break out a little bit of the rule we had stuck to, which is every episode happens in one day and every episode happens inside the walls of the office or on the grounds of Dunder Mifflin. So we had this idea that he would go to New York. There were two really important things that I think came out of that episode.

The first was like, let's take a skeleton crew to the city. walk around with Steve Correll and just do a bunch of jokes. In the room, I remember we called it Michael Scott's New York. That's how he thought of it was like, because his whole thing is I'm an expert on everything. Yes. And so we thought it would be really fun to put him in Manhattan, a place where like you've got to, you know, spend a lot of time in Manhattan to be an expert on it and he is not. So the joke I wrote that's probably the most famous joke of that episode is the one

where he talks about taking the camera crew to his favorite pizza place. and it's a Sparrow. It's the one that comes back to me the most still to this day. I mean, people post online pictures of themselves in front of Sparrow. In Manhattan. Yeah, and saying, you know. Yeah, got to get a New York slice. Yeah.

That episode is largely about him and Jan. Yes. And him believing that he has a relationship with Jan that he does not actually have. But this was the other really important thing about that episode from a like a world building point of view was a question that had. a question that had been asked many times of the show by critics and fans and all sorts of people was, how did this dummy get this job? How did Michael Scott get this job? And Greg had thought it out very carefully.

It was a living example of what's called in corporate structure, the Peter Principle, right? Yes, we know the Peter Principle. We've discussed, right? People who do a good job at their job are then promoted to a position in which their skills have run out and are no longer out. They're not qualified for it. Yeah. But it was still a question of like, okay, even given that, this guy has done a lot of ridiculous stuff. So how do we justify it?

So the whole point of this episode was we were like, we're going to see four guys, including Michael, who have Michael's job at different branches. Two of them are going to be demonstrably more competent than him, and one of them is going to be less competent. And like, we are going to absolutely show that there are people who have his job who are dumber than he is. And that was that character who just was like, I thought this was more of like a meet and greet kind of a deal. He's very funny too. Yeah, he's very funny. Craig Anton, I think, is his name.

And so Michael does something kind of important too in that episode, which is he has made a ridiculous video. The CFO, David Wallace, has asked him to make a presentation about his branch, numbers, facts, revenue streams, stuff like that. And instead, in classic Michael Scott fashion, he decides to make a presentation. make a video that's like a heart string tugging kind of like these people matter to me. And he presents that video and David Wallace's reaction is like, wow, but also do you have the facts I asked for? And the key thing is that he does. That was like a big deal. He passes out these like really nice like spiral bound. Yes. And it was a demonstration that like even though he's an absurd person, he's not incompetent. He knows what he has to do. And he also, he was hoping that David

Wallace would like start crying because he was so moved by his video that he would see what Michael sees in the incredible people of Dan Dundermiff and Scranton. So that was the whole purpose of that besides obviously advancing the Michael Jan relationship was like she gives him a kiss at the end. She does indeed. She's like surprised by his maneuver that he like owns up to the relationship and takes the fall for it and protects her. And she's so, you know, sort of like pleased with how he handle it that she ends up giving him what he hoped he was going to get, which was like a romantic Valentine's Day New York moment. There's another very important thing that came out of that episode for me and for America. When we auditioned people for that role that Craig Anton did,

and was very funny. And one of the people we saw was Nick Offerman. Oh. And he auditioned for it. And we were like, that guy's really funny. But then it immediately came to us before we could, I think, even offer him the part, maybe, that he had a conflict. And the conflict was he was shooting an episode of Will and Grace at the same time, because he is famously married to Megan Mullalley. So I wrote the name Nick Offerman on a post-it note and stuck it to my computer as a reminder to me that like this guy had audition was really funny. And then three years later, when Greg and I were developing Parks and Rec, I was like, oh, that guy. That guy's really funny. And he came in and read for, a bunch of parts and ended up playing Ron Swanson. And when the show ended, I saved the post-it note.

Nice. And I had it framed. And it had, in the intervening time, it had fallen off my computer and been stepped on. So there was like a footprint on it. And someone, some random phone number was also written on it or whatever. But I saved it and like put it in a frame and gave it to Neck as a present at the end of the show. But that was where I was where I first saw him. Oh, I'm so glad you told that story for any like aspiring artists out there who have gone to an audition and then they don't get the part. But like, you might be on a Post-it note on someone's computer. Like, that might grow into something in three years. Yeah. It was wonderful the way it all worked out. And it taught us a really important lesson, which was, and I think this started at the office. If it didn't, it definitely started

at Parks and Rec or we took it to Parks and Rec. We used to have a folder on our computer that called Good for Something. And it would be like we would audition people for roles. And then if we didn't cast them but we liked them, we would just take their audition and throw it into that folder. And then in a future episode, if it was like, oh, who can play this part, we would go through that folder and look at all those auditions. And we go, oh, that lady was funny.

We'll get her to do it. And people would constantly on Parks and Rec show up and be like, I didn't audition for this. Like, how did this happen? And we were like, well, we audition for that thing a year ago and we found you and, you know, saved, we liked your audition and saved you. And most of the actors always had that same reaction.

which was like, thank you so much. Yes. But for me, it was like, well, why wouldn't you do that? It's like, you like an actor. They did a good job. Like, actors don't grow on trees. Like, save them and use them in something, you know. Two things.

One, I think it's very Michael Scott of you that you stuck it on your computer. It is very old-timey. I usually, I did tidy up, but I normally have Post-it notes. And I open my laptop in there here because I don't want to, like, forget. But then also you said, you know, actors don't grow on trees. which made me think of branch closing because I watched it this morning. Did you really? Oh, my gosh.

Yes. It's always been one of my favorite episodes. And I was like, I haven't watched it in a bit since we like first broke it down. But did you write Stanley doesn't grow on trees? I believe I did. Yeah. Because you just said it.

So it might be just deep within you. Show me that farm where, yeah. Yeah, we're Stanleys and Phyllis's. Stanley's and Phyllis's. It's such a good episode. It like made my morning. I watched it with a cup of tea. I remember thinking like that's season three.

Yes, it's season three. And I remember thinking, I remember watching that episode, watching Steve specifically in that episode and thinking like this is an actor at the height of his powers. Like it's a great showcase for him for a couple of reasons. One is the very first scene is Jan coming in and saying this branch is closing. And he just is usually on the show like there's a little bit of a ramp in, you know, like starts with some slice of life and then Michael has some dumb thing

and then whatever eventually like a couple minutes in the premise has sort of sprung. That episode, Jan walks in and he's like going, Jan Levinson Goal, blah, blah, blah. And then she just goes... Like Levinson in the morning.

Just call me Levinson in the morning. And then she's like, I'm here to tell you the branch is closing. And so 30 seconds in, he gets the worst news of his life. And that monologue, that talking head he gives of like show me that farm is so good.

And it's like he has so deeply internalized the degree to which this office is his entire life. It's like an incredible performance. And I remember that was the year, not to divert the conversation too much into something that doesn't really matter, but that was the year that everyone was like, Steve Corell is going to win the Emmy

for best actor and a comedy. It is a foregone conclusion. In fact, it was such a foregone conclusion that that year they had, had Stephen Colbert and John Stewart present the category because it was going to be a daily show correspondence reunion on stage and they were going to give it to their friend Steve Correll. And then I believe Ricky Jervais ended up winning for the show extras, which was a BBC show that HBO had just bought and like thrown on the air. And he wasn't even there. It was one of

those deals where they showed a black and white photo of him on the screen. And they were like, Ricky Jervais isn't here. So instead, we're going to give this to our friend Steve Karel, and then Steve jumped up and ran on stage and, like, bowed and everyone cheered. But I remember thinking of all of the robberies that occurred from folks who worked on the office over the years, that season three best actor in a comedy was number one on my list because he was the funniest person in America, and he was the best actor on a comedy in America by a wide margin. And I always think of that performance in that episode is Exhibit A in that argument. Yeah, he's fantastic in it.

Yeah. And he never won an Emmy for the role of it. Michael Scott. He never did. Never did. When I speak to acting classes, I remind them of that fact that you can do the best work. You can be the very, very best of what you do. Yeah. I know. At this point, it's like you can make a better cast and show out of the folks who have never won than the folks who have won, I dare say. And he's the lead. Yeah, they had a camera on us. I've told this story before. We were in a row together. It was like Jenna and John and me. in the same row and Steve was in front of us. And, you know, when they're announcing the nominees, the camera guys just run right up. Right.

Right in your face. Yeah. Right in your face. And so it's right in Steve's face and then we're directly behind him. And when they didn't say his name, I guess I said, motherf-fucker. I mean, that's the correct response. Yeah. And I had one or two friends say, did you say motherfucker?

I think I saw you say that. I'm like, yes, yes, I did. came out of me. I didn't have a choice. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't. And I, you know, so many of us couldn't because he was amazing. The other scene in that episode that I think of, when I think of how great he was, is the one where, so the plot is that he and Dwight decide that they're going to go to David Wallace's house and just like stop him and like make their argument why Scranton shouldn't close. And he never shows up. They just end up spending the entire day outside his house. And he and Dwight are sitting there at the end when it looks like all is

lost and he just says like, all right, top three, what are your top three moments ever, your three favorite moments at Dundra Mifflin? And Dwight names a couple, one or two things I think we've seen in the world of the show, like the concussion, like when Michael took Dwight to the hospital. And Dwight gets a little emotional. And there also one thing I think that we didn't see that was a reference to something that happened before the documentary started shooting. And then Dwight says, what about you?

What are your top three moments? And he says all of them, every single moment, every single moment was wonderful and perfect and special. And it's really a beautiful moment. And then Dwight says, what about when Jan came and told you the office was closing? And he's like, God damn it, Dwight. It was so perfect. Dwight, like, just who he is. Yeah.

He's so literal. He's very, he means every single moment? Well, I can think of one. Yeah. He also, they did this great thing where Dwight is going to practice being David Wallace and Michael's going to plea his case why they can't close Scranton Branch. And Dwight just very matter-factly, he's

like, well, it's a dying business for one. And it's like, it's just comes down to numbers. It's just math. And he's so matter of fact. And Michael's like, stop it, stop it. He's never going to say that. Well, there's a wonderful moment that was improvised between the two of them. I think the way it

ended was Michael was like, just start over and be more scared of me. Yeah. And so Dwight goes back and he wasn't supposed to do this, but Rain walked up again. And Michael says like, David Wallace, and rain goes, ha! They're like, jumps backwards. And we had to cut it off. Literally the frame where we cut it off is the last frame before they both started laughing.

It's a good memory of that moment. Oh, it was really fun to rewatch it. I highly recommend, guys. Well, since we're talking about season three, this is actually a question I wanted to ask you. The arc of season three is such an impressive arc. You have the whole storyline of Jim going to Stanford. You had to create this whole other branch. You had to fill it with people who were then going to come merge with the Scranton branch.

And then some of them stay. Like you had to cast Rashida Jones. You had to cast Ed Helms. It was this massive ongoing storyline. Like, can you talk a little bit about how that was created, like some of the conversations in the room and like how far into the season did you get when we started shooting? It's a great question. This was a big swing that Greg decided to make, which. was at the end of season two after Jim and Pam kiss and Pam sort of lets him down in her mind easy,

but for him not very easy. Greg was like he's got to leave. We can't just start season three with him back at the office. It's not sort of following through on the story you've told. The story we've told is that Jim stays in this office because of Pam. So if he makes a play for Pam and Pam turns him down, he's going to leave. So he had a general with Ed, I remember. Like, and we were all daily show fans.

And so we were like, oh, Ed Helms is here. That's fun. And we came into that season, and Greg was like, Jim is going to leave. He's going to go to another branch. We're going to meet an entire group of people who work in that branch. And then at some point, early in the season, they're going to fold together. The branches are going to march. So the important people were Ed's character, Andy Bernard,

Rashida's character, who was going to be Jim's new love interest. Because Greg was like, when Jim comes back, he's got a girlfriend. That was a huge thing too. And then the manager of the office, who was Josh, who was going to play an important role in the story in that he was going to seem like an incredibly competent, like, well functioning, high functioning manager who was clearly better than Michael Scott at managing. But was also like kind of a self-interested guy who didn't really care about the office and was going to like leverage this corporate upheaval for his own gain, which led to one of my favorite gym lines. where when that is revealed, when Jim says, like, say what you will about Michael Scott, he would never do that. Yeah. Which was like, that was the whole storyline that was laid out.

And Charles Lesson was great. He was so good. Yeah. He was really great. He was a perfect, just like handsome, charismatic guy who, like everyone was, like, psyched to work for. And, you know, the hardest part, obviously, like, Ed, you cast because Ed's hilarious. And, like, he's like a guy who you're like, well, this guy will fold naturally into any ensemble and will be wonderful and great. Can I say one thing about that episode?

When they find out in branch closing that, you know, Scranton is going to be, you know, closed down, he goes up to Jim at the Stanford office and goes, in your face! Jim's like, I don't work there. I work here. Of all of Krasinski's tiny line readings, it's one of the tiniest because he goes, hi, in your face. And John goes, well, I work here now. Yeah. You can barely hear him and speak so quietly. It's wonderful.

But anyway, I'm so sorry. So Ed, obviously. Ed is like, cast that guy. He's great. He's a New England preppy. Like, I was delighted because Andy Brown is everyone I grew up with in Connecticut. Like, I was like, oh, I can write this guy forever. Like, I'm like, wind me up and set me loose.

The hardest part was Rashida, because this is one of the hardest things to do in any show, right, is there are two people on the show who are soulmates. It's very clear that they're soulmates. And they are going to at some point get together. And Greg was like, if they get together, they're staying together. We're not doing Ross and Rachel, which they did obviously incredibly effectively over 10 years, which is like get together, break up, get together, break up over and over again. He's like, when Jim and Pam get together, they're going to stay together.

He always kind of knew that. So what we needed for the obstacle was a woman who Jim could date, who was a good match for him. He also didn't want to do a move, which I think is kind of. crappy and slightly misogynistic, which is you give the protagonist of the show a girlfriend who's just a terrible person, either cheats on him or brow beats him or is like selfish or is mean or whatever. And it's cheap because it makes the audience just like root for Jim and for the person to go with you with the other person. And Greg was like, that's just fake. Like you know that's fake. And Greg, he had this very, very Greg like analogy, which is he told the story, I want to say it's

General Sherman in the Civil War. It's a classic Greg thing. Amazing. Yeah. Did you tell it while laying on his back stretching his... A hundred percent he did, yes. He was lying on the floor, on that dirty floor of the writers' room. The story from history was that I think it was Sherman.

It might have been Grant. Or I'm getting all of this wrong. But it was an army was marching south through the U.S. and the opposing forces, the Confederate forces, were very skilled fighters. And even if they were outnumbered, they could win a theoretical battle if they knew where they were going. So if Sherman were marching on Richmond, Lee would marshal all of his forces in Richmond and be ready for him. So what Sherman did, according to Greg, was to drive his army halfway between two possible destinations, halfway between Richmond and Atlanta.

So Lee would then have to send half of his army to Richmond and half to Atlanta, and then at the last second, Sherman would break towards one of them, and then he would only have to fight half of the Southern Army and would win. And he used this analogy by saying, like, we have to create a girlfriend for Jim, who is compelling enough and a good enough match that half of our audience is rooting for him to say, I'm sorry, Pam, you missed your shot. and half of the audience is rooting for him to say, like, get rid of this lady and go with Pam.

And so that required a lot of things. One, some good stories where Rashida was funny and interesting and compelling and smart and cool. And it required an actor to play that role that people wouldn't hate. And so we looked forever. We tried so many different versions of like just combing through the other shows and seeing like what actors have been on these shows who seem good. and funny and whatever. I met Rashida in my second day of college, and we've been friends ever since.

And so I was obviously, like, quietly being like, cast Rashida. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she had met John already, and so John liked her and was, like, pushing for her. But Greg famously indecisive in these moments, or I guess the indecisive is not the nicest way to say it. Thurow would be the nicest way to put it, that he exhausts every avenue of possibility.

And we looked and looked and looked and eventually settled on Rashida. And then the challenge became, in like six episodes, introduce her and build her into a person who, at least some of the audience, was like, wait, I think she's a better girlfriend for Jim than Pam is. And that was really hard. And that took, like, most of the time of the writer's room and the time between season two and season three was spent just doing that. Like, how can we, like, meticulously form a character that audiences are rooting for? It was very hard. You know what I think worked about it is that I liked Karen as a woman.

Like I wanted to go to lunch with Karen. I wanted to be friends with Karen. I'm like, oh, this is a woman I'd want to spend time with. She's cool. Yeah. And they seemed like exactly what you're saying. Like Jim and Karen seemed like a couple who were compatible enough and had enough fun that they'd have like a three-year relationship and then break up. Right.

You know? Like Pam aside. Jim was not going to end up with Karen in the long run. Right. Whenever he met her. Right. But this was like a solid choice. This was like a person to spend three years of your time with.

Yeah, she was cool. She was smart. She was good at her job. She was funny. Yeah. A huge breakthrough for the writers was the Christmas episode that year, which was extended, which Jen Salada wrote, I want to say, and which was so good. And Harold Ramos, the late Harold Ramos directed.

and was so good that it was the first time that the cut came in at like 42 minutes, as it always did. And instead of cutting it down to 2130, Greg went to the studio and was like, we should make this a two-part or we should make this an hour. And we ended up shooting another, like, writing and shooting another like six or eight minutes of stuff in order to then boil it down to the best 43. But the plot that mattered so much was that Karen and Pam were on the same team. Yeah. Yeah. It was like Churchill, right? Like nothing brings people together like a common enemy.

Yes. And so there you were. Yes. And like that, but that pitching out that story was a huge relief for us because we were like, right, the story of this doesn't have to be a rivalry between Pam and Karen. It can be that like you said, that like Pam is like, I kind of like this lady. Like I want to be friends of there. Like legitimately.

not as a way to like weasel my way back into Jim's life, but just because for Pam, life in that office could be pretty lonely in terms of like ladies that you can hang out with and talk to. And suddenly here's one right here and she's cool. And so in the like slow, deliberate sort of brick by brick construction of Karen as a character, that was like a huge moment that we were like, oh, there should be an episode where they happily and joyfully find themselves on the same team. I think shout out too to Rashida,

because she just has a natural presence as Karen that puts you at ease. And that's her just instincts as an actor. And then also in real life, she is one of the coolest people you'll ever meet. That's the thing. She is. Like, you know, I took a trip with her. Like, we've talked about this before. I went and did this work with this nonprofit that helps save the world's oceans.

And Rashid and I went together. And there are still things she said as we traveled to Belize, like, that I still say to people. Like, she... Emotionally expensive. That's one of them. She said, I kind of was like going through some stuff and she was like, Angel, that person is too emotionally expensive for you. And I was like, what? This is brilliant.

The other thing is, she gets on a plane. She's like a professional. Yeah. She has so many lotions. Yeah. And she hydrates. And she's like, my friends call me lotions and potions on planes. So now I like bring like hand lotion and chapstick like on a plane and I think of her.

She was, I mean, again, I'm coming from a medium-sized town in suburban Connecticut. But even so, when I met her on the second day of freshman year of college in 1993, she was the coolest person I'd ever met. And now, 33 years later, she is still the coolest person I've ever met. Well, I think to wrap up this part of our office convo, we wanted to ask you. And this is like kind of one of those questions. Like when people ask me, I'm like, oh, it's so hard. But do you have an episode that you wrote that's,

near and dear to your heart? I mean, all of them, obviously. I will say branch closing, I was very delighted in how it all turned out. I think the one that I think of the most is the negotiation, which was one of the supersized ones, which I was so happy about because there was so much going on. It's the one that starts with Dwight spraying Mace and Pam's boyfriend and stopping an attack. And Angela's titillated by it. It keeps having everyone

retell the story. So this was the best part of it was Roy comes in and Dwight mases him. He's about to attack Jim and maces him. And that's a great beginning to an episode, right? That's so exciting. And then a bunch of stuff has to

branch out of that. And because the story that we had for Michael was that Daryl wanted to renegotiate his salary because Roy had been fired and now he was like, okay, I'm stepping up. and whatever. And so that whole thing, that whole story is huge. And they go to the corporate offices and he talks to Jan.

And it also flips and Daryl finds out how much Michael makes and is like humiliated for him. And it's like, you got to get a raise, but I can get a raise, you know. And it's a real Craig Robinson showcased that whole episode. But then the B story was Jim feeling like he owed Dwight a debt of gratitude and was like, how do I pay this guy back? and he tries all these silly ways to pay Dwight back. And Dwight, in his weird coat of honor, is refusing to accept a payback

because he says citizens do not accept prizes for being citizens, is that way he puts it. So both of those stories were so great. It was like, put Michael Scott and Craig Robinson in a room together and like send them off, and it's going to be great. And also, Jim feeling a debt to Dwight that he's trying desperately to fill

because he hates the feeling of owing Dwight something, fantastic. The problem was, The best episodes of the show were always ones where everyone was involved. And you're talking about two huge stories where it's just Michael and Craig, really, Toby at the end. And then Dwight and Jim. And so this was a risky maneuver. But on my own, when I went off to write it, I was like, I'm going to add another story.

And the story was that Angela heard the tale of heroism for Dwight and was like turned on by it. And kept asking other people to like, well, I didn't really hear what. happen. Can you repeat the story? And she's doing like fingering, playing her necklace. Yeah. And then the wonderful thing that came out of it was that Jim had hit a wall where he just couldn't figure out how to pay Dwight back. And he came out of the bathroom at the end and saw Dwight, because Angela has gone up to Dwight and been like, I've heard of some incredible tales of heroism. And there's no one in the office, they think, and they start making out. And Jim sees it. And he gets so excited and he's like, I, and then he realizes and says, I'm never going to say a word. And that is how I will

pay Dwight back. And it was like the perfect like dovetailing of stories that involve like everyone in the office entirely. And so the way that all kind of coalesced into a big giant fun story. And then we had this wonderful thing for like another bunch of episodes, which was that Dwight thought that no one knew. and Jim, his worst enemy, knew this thing and wasn't telling anyone. And I think it just made Jim really likable. And he was like doing a nice thing without Dwight knowing it, which was just like a really sweet little backstory, you know. Aw.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that one was really fun. And I was so happy that it was supersized because it allowed us to keep all that stuff in the episode. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You are so, like, just fun to talk to. You are.

You're just, you're smart and you remember things. Well, that's, I mean, look, I've said this the last time I was here. Like, that show was so formative for all of us. Like, it taught me everything I've ever learned about writing and about story creation and about working with actors and all that stuff. Like, it was such a vibrant laboratory is how I think about it. Like, Greg threw us into the deep end of the pool in the best way. You know, I'd never written on anything before. And there I was, like, on the set, like, dealing with directors and talking to actors and, like, in the edit bay, like, making editing decisions.

I didn't know that isn't typical. And now, you know, 20, 30 years later, I'm realizing how atypical it really was. And so I've tried in my life now running different shows to replicate that process. It's not easy. It requires a lot of faith in the people that you hire, and it requires a lot of time to walk people through all of the mistakes that they make when they don't know what they're doing. Like, we all made horrible mistakes and, like, wasted enormous. amounts of time making terrible editing decisions. And even then I was aware of how special it was, the lessons I learned and the moments that stood out, like, are very deeply embedded in my brain.

And I don't think they'll ever leave. You know, I'm really moved by you saying that. Like, I got a little choked up because it is such a gift that Greg gave all of us, the actors, to bringing us into the process so intimately. Like, I left that show a better actor because I knew. everything that was happening besides just my acting. Because he brought us into the edit bay and into conversations and into the writer's room. And so seeing how a story was crafted and why it was important and like little things. Like I don't know. Like you get a line or you get a scene and you're like, I don't get it.

Like he didn't just say do it because I wrote it. He'd be like, let me tell you where we're going with this. Yeah. And you're like, oh, I gotcha. It was obvious to me very early. I think I told this story the first time I was on your show, but my meeting with him was like two hours long, and it was very different from all the other meetings I'd taken.

And I sent my agent an email when I left, and said, I don't know if that guy's going to offer me a job, but if he does, I'm going to take it, because I think he's going to teach me how to write. And he did offer me the job, and I did take it, and he did teach me how to write. And so I knew from the beginning that this was, like, a person I could learn from. And then, like, the process of that first season

of, like, breaking stories and slogging through all these different versions and everything sort of, you know, made it clear. But then the first episode I wrote was The Alliance and he was like editing it and I was working on the comeback, this first season of the show, The Comeback on HBO at the time. And so I wasn't able to be around a lot. And he was like, hey, we just finished our first assembly of the Alliance and I'm going to send it to you so you can look at it. So I watched it and it was completely different. Obviously it was completely different. The first cut was 38 minutes long and this one was 24 or whatever. whatever. And I remember watching it and like my heart sinking because I was like, wait, he cut

this and he cut that and he moved this scene over here. And I like panicked. And I wrote him this long email where I was like, hey, so here's just a few thoughts on like, on this and like you cut the cold open and the cold open really does this thing where it sets up this. And you also, you know, by starting this scene here, you do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember sending it off and being like when he reads this, he's going to rethink some of this decisions. And he wrote back and I remember it so clearly he wrote like, hey dude, exclamation point. Like responses below, see if they make sense to you.

And then just one by one, everything I had said, he like took the time to write out a long paragraph of like, here's why I did this and here's why it's good, I think, and here's why it makes sense and here's why it helps the episode. And then I remember it was like my heart like sank again somehow because I was embarrassed, but also like rose back up into my chest because I was like, oh, this guy knows everything. Like this guy is seeing the matrix code behind the show in a way that I could never

in this moment in my life. And I just remember thinking, like, there is nothing that I could suggest to Greg Daniels that he has not already thought about. He knew the show from beginning to end before he started working on it somehow. And like, when you know that you're in the hands of someone who cares that much and knows that much about what he's doing,

It's so freeing. You're just like, I just trust that the decisions that are being made are like coming from a place of like thoughtfulness and understanding and like love of the characters and love of the world that makes me just very at ease, you know? Yeah, yeah. He's smart and thoughtful and funny. Oh my gosh, all the things. The one thing he said to me about my character, and I don't know if I've shared this before, but there was a moment where we didn't know if we were going to be. series regulars are not, you know, the supporting cast. And I think I just sort of insecurely just said to him without even thinking, I don't know if my character brings much, you know.

And he said, oh, Angela, your character's the bitch. You always need the bitch. It's like, no, that's a very good, that's a good character. And I was like, okay, okay. Maybe I'll be around a Did we talk about the Secret Santa Christmas episode about Angela specifically the last time I was here? I can't remember. This is like one of the great writing lessons. I feel like every time I was in that room, I learned something about how to write. But I had to write the Yankee Swap Christmas, the Secret Santa Christmas episode. So I did this thing where I did a real drawing.

I took, I put everyone's names into a hat. And we knew that like for the plot, like Jim had to have Pam because he was going to get her the teapot. and Michael had to have Ryan because he gave him the video iPod, but everything else was up in the air. So I did a real drawing in my house when I went off to write the script. And I forget who had Angela. But anyway, the point is that the person who got Angela, it wasn't a plot point.

It was just like we were just needed people to open gifts, right? And so the gift that I wrote in was like one of those sort of like Joel Osteen sort of like Christian books, like self-help books or whatever. And I think it's because Angela had said in the fire episode, it was like when you're playing, you know, what books would you have in Desert Island? She says, she mentions one of those books. And so I was like, okay, so the person will just get her one of those books.

And Greg was like, we need to change that when I turned in the script. And I was like, why? Like, it's in universe. You know, she's already said she likes those books. And he's like, yeah, but that's the reason we need to change it. He said, like, every episode of every TV show, you should learn something new about every character. if you can.

Like, that should be the goal, that you move the ball slightly down the field of, like, character development for as many people as you can, because that's what leads to, like, rich characters, right? And I was a little bit, like,

what does this matter? Like, this episode is so complicated already. And, like, this is not a plot point. This doesn't matter. Like, it's just a moment where Angela opens a gift and then we move on. But we, of course,

put, like, seven hours of thought into it and ended up with buying that someone gets Angela a poster of the base dressed up like humans of like dressed up like adults, right? Yes. And first of all, immediately it's like, well, that's way funnier. It's a way funnier little moment.

If it's just that moment, it's much better than just a book because who cares. But then, whatever, 10 episodes later, that poster becomes the centerpiece of an entire other episode. Yes. And suddenly Oscar is wearing it as a shirt. Yes. Because it's, and it was just such a great lesson because it's like, right, even if it doesn't matter in the moment, like make it as interesting as possible and say something new about each

character because you don't know how that's going to pay off down the line. And that poster became like a very important thing in the world of the show. And it's just because he cared at that granular level of like make every moment one percent better. And then suddenly the entire episode is like 15 percent better. And the entire season is like 30 percent better. And future episodes are 500% better. And that's the level of detail that he was putting into all of that story breaking work. Oh, wow. That was a great specific example of that. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Mike, we also want to talk to you about your book. Great. Yes. Okay. Mike has a new book. Yes. It is called Big Fan and you wrote it with your friend in an amazing sports writer, Joe Posnanski.

That's right. And I did read this little blurb and I thought I would share it with our list. so they can get an idea of the book. It says bestselling authors and podcast hosts. Joe and Mike love games, almost any games, and they bring readers to the front row and sometimes even right onto the field, whether ringside at WrestleMania in Las Vegas, singing along with the maniacs at the World Darts Championships

in London, are just watching eight straight hours of football at a Buffalo Wild Wings in Dallas. They bring us to the very heart of what it means to love something so much it hurts. I got this book for Lee for Father's Day. Did you really? Yes, I did. Yes, and my son has already stolen it.

Great. I got it for myself, and I was on a flight to Utah, and I started reading it, and the man next to me was like, what's that? Look at you. I don't know his name. You're doing Dutton's marketing work for them. Exactly. One person at the time.

Tell us about this book and how it came about. So a couple years ago, I was sent a video by a friend of mine who said, look at this, it's hilarious, and it was a video of the World Darts Championship in London, a thing I did not know existed. And in the video, a couple, like, very stocky European gentlemen with no expressions on their faces are just playing darts, or just throwing darts at a dartboard. And they seem to be doing fairly well because behind them is a crowd of people, like 3,000 people.

And with every throw, they are absolutely losing their minds. Like, they just are going, like, crazier and crazier, it's escalating. And the announcer is with like the thickest, like, I think Scottish accent you've ever heard is like losing his mind. And it's a very funny juxtaposition of just like no expression, just like thunk, thunk, thunk. And people go like, and then I start to realize that the crowd behind them are all in costume, different costumes. Some of them are dressed like Harry Potter. Some of them are minions. Some of them are the Jamaican bobsled team.

Some of them are dressed like giant bananas or tomatoes or British barristers with like white wigs on. And I was just like, what is this? What is this event? And I was laughing so hard at how crazy it was. And by the way, by the end, they're literally like jumping up and down and throwing pictures of beer in the air and throwing napkins up and hugging each other. And I was like, these people are lunatics. And then I was like, but also that's probably kind of how I look to like my wife when I'm watching sports that I'm. I care about.

Like, it does make you crazy to be a fan. And I just had this idea that my friend Joe, who I've known forever, who's a legendary sports writer, that he and I should go to a bunch of kind of strange events, not the Super Bowl and the World Series and stuff like that, but like weird events where fans really care. And just try to figure out if there is something universal about fandom. Like, is it the same at the World Darts Championship as it is at a Dodgers game? what is it about fandom that that matters so much to so many people?

Why do so many people put their lives on hold and carve time out of their busy days and stare frantically at a TV screen and like pace around in their living rooms and bite their nails and fall into deep spells of depression when their team loses

and celebrate euphorically when they win and I just thought that I was like this is a phenomenon that's worth investigating so I called him and pitched him the idea and he was like immediately saw it and we were off and running. And so we spent like a year and a half going to a bunch of different events. We do go to mainstream American sports. We go to basketball, football, baseball. I went to the Olympics in Paris and watched the U.S. men's basketball team. He went to a Montreal

Canadians hockey game with some friends in Montreal. Like we do the stuff that matters most to Americans, but we also went to some really fun stuff that we had never heard of before. Joe went to the indigenous stickball championships in Philadelphia, Mississippi, which is a sport that native trials. have used to like settle disputes for like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It's sort of like field hockey or lacrosse, but it's like played by like dozens and dozens of people at the same time. It's sort of like lacrosse plus rugby plus like a fist fight. And it's, you know, it's in the middle of Mississippi in the summer and it's 140 degrees with 140% humidity. Like we went to places where there are games that matter and we tried to like figure out what

it was about that unites all of them and the fans who love them. But you also went to like a Taylor Swift concert, which is another kind of fandom. Yeah. So we didn't want it to just be about sports. So one of the things that we did was there were two really fun things that were non-sports related. One of them was I had the idea that we should each send the other one to something that the other one hated. Okay. It was like, I know you hate this now, but go see if you can figure out why people like it. So I sent Joe to play pickleball. in a pickleball tournament because he's a tennis player. Me too.

There you go. I know. He's like pickleball's taking over and I hate it. I hate the sound. I hate the kitchen. I hate that it's named after the guy's dog. He just hates everything about it. But he sent me to WrestleMania because I don't care at all about wrestling.

I don't like combat sports. I think they're ridiculous. And so I was like, all right, fine. I'll go to WrestleMania. And then my agent called me and was like, hey, I'm taking a bunch of people to a dead-in-company show in Vegas for my birthday. do you want to go? And I was like, I can't.

I'm going to WrestleMania. And he was like, well, WrestleMania is also in Vegas and it's the same weekend. And I was like, crap. And I was like, I realized in that moment, like, I should do both things. Like, it's funnier to do both things.

So I embark on what I refer to in the book as the world's weirdest biathlon, where on Saturday night I go to a dead-in-company show and Sunday night to go to WrestleMania. But then, you know, we were writing this book in 24, 25, and like, it was impossible to write a book about fandom without including Taylor Swift.

My wife and I took our daughter and some of her friends to the Arest Store. We did the same. Did you? Yeah, both of us, yeah. At SoFi? I was in New Orleans. Okay. I was in Vancouver.

I was at her last show. Yeah. My wife and my daughter were also at her second to last show. Oh, wow. Yeah. But my wife and her friend also went from her friend from college and their daughters came. And my wife's best friend made one of those photo books about it. And the title of the book is better than our weddings.

because they both agreed that evening was better than each of their ways. They were like, it was more joyous. I was happier. Yeah, it was more important in my life. Like, yeah. And Joe had taken his daughter to a Taylor Swift concert in North Carolina. And so we were like, well, we have to write about Taylor Swift, but what are two, like, 50-year-old dudes going to say about it

that will matter nothing, but our daughters should do this. So I had my daughter, Ivy, who's 14. I was like, just write a chapter about what Taylor Swift means to you. And his daughter did the same. And then we put them together. And it was like, and we did not edit them. They are unedited. They are like, this is what she wrote.

I added a few commas. But other than that. And so it's just a great little snapshot in time of like what Taylor Swift means to girls at different ages in the year 2024. So there's, we tried to cover not just sports, but all fandom. I wrote a long section on TV fandom too and wrote about like what I've observed about why TV matters to people and what is it. about sort of bonding with characters on long-running TV shows that makes them feel like they matter in their lives and that sort of thing. So it's really an attempt to be comprehensive about fandom as a phenomenon. And you have some great pictures in here, too, from different events that you guys went to.

Yeah, there's some good WrestleMania pictures. We were very close to the ring. And I'm still not a wrestling fan, but holy moly, those athletes are doing some crazy stuff, man. Their bodies. They're flying. Like, the thing I write in the book, is, like, wrestling might be fake, but like, the sounds their bodies make when they hit the mat are not. Like, they are really jumping and flying and twisting, and it's really wild. I went with my friend

Jen Statsky, who wrote with me on Parks and Rec, in the Good Place, and then created hacks, because she's an enormous wrestling fan. And Eleanor Shellstrop, Kristen Bell's character, and The Good Place is a huge wrestling fan and is, like, deeply in love with Stone Cold on Steve Austin. And that all came from Jen. That was all Jen's thing. And I asked Jen to, come with me to like be my, you know, Sherpa, to like walk me through it. And the thing she said to me, I was like, help me understand this. Like I don't, I can't access this. It's like not a real sport. And she goes, no, that's the whole point. She goes, the thing that's great about wrestling is that it's the perfect marriage of sports and theater. And when you think of it as the intersection of

sports and theater, you can figure out why it's so compelling. And I have to say, like, it was the perfect thing to say to me. It was like, one, I changed. I changed. I changed. I, you know, my frame of reference to like this isn't really a sport to like it's not supposed to be it's supposed to be a dramatic performance done by the world's best athletes and that really helped me like get to the heart of why people are so nutty for it you know it's funny that you mention not being a fan of something and then like getting absorbed by it so i was in new york this year when the nicks were in the playoffs yeah what is the thing you win when you're championship The championship, just the NBA championship.

Yes, correct. I'm like, does it have a name like the Stanley Cup? I don't think so. So here's the thing. I have never watched a basketball game on television in my life. I've been to one Lakers game. I took my son. I don't particularly care for basketball.

My opinion is that like you could just turn it on in the last three minutes. You don't need to watch the whole thing because it just goes back and forth the whole game. And it's just sort of like, well, I'll just watch the end. Sure. So haven't ever been a fan of basketball. I spent seven days in New York during this time. And by that last night when they won, I was at a neighborhood watch party on the street.

She was outside. At a bomb, like a bar has like a TV. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, if they don't fucking win. They deserve it. It's been 50 years. Like I was so hardcore. And then they won and I was like on the street.

Euphoric. like erupted and the cars are honking and the guy's got a giant blowup basketball that we're all like kicking down the street. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. I didn't even know. I know. It is deeply inside us fandom. That's one of the things that we really learned is like you can go from I don't care about this at all to if Jalen Brunson doesn't win the MVP of the finals, I will throw myself in front of a train in like a second.

Yes. And the most sort of interesting part of this whole experience was we talked to this professor who studies sports fandom. His name is Daniel Wan. He teaches at Murray State University. And the thing he said to us that rang so true was, look, if sports were just like fun and a good way to kill a couple hours, that would be fine. But it wouldn't explain that reaction you had. And it wouldn't explain why a billion people in the world care about it so deeply. And he said, in order for that to be true,

it must be the case that sports fandom and fandom in general is satisfying some kind of deep emotional need. Like an emotional need is being met by this phenomenon. And that's why it erupts out of us the way it does. It's because it's drilling down into our souls and meeting us at some very deep and primal place. And that feeling that you just described, so my son is a huge sports fan but has never liked soccer. I've tried to get him to watch with me. He doesn't care. he thinks it's boring.

There's not enough scoring, all those things that people think. He was out with his friends on the first night of the World Cup, and he was like, what do you guys want to do? And they were like, there's a watch party in Korea town because South Korea is playing in the World Cup. And he was like, right. And that all of a sudden I started getting these texts that was like, this is low-key.

Lock-in, dad, low-key. This is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. And it's my son and his friends and like a thousand Koreans in at like an outdoor park in Korea Town watching the World Cup. And when they scored a goal, he was like, I've never felt anything like this in my life. It was like a jolt of electricity. And that night, he's staying up until three in the morning, like learning about like all the players on the team where they play, what the European leagues are, like learning about like the transfer system in soccer, which is incredibly complicated.

And now he's just got World Cup fever. And he's like living and dying with all these matches. And I just think it speaks to something. There's a lot of reasons why fandom occurs in people. But life is a little bit lonely and sports creates communities that we can feel like we're a part of. And like you're standing on the street in New York City suddenly feeling like nothing has ever mattered more to me in my life than this thing that I did not care about one week ago. Exactly. I mean, on game four, we walked to Central Park and we watched the game.

like through some trees. They had the Central Park watch party, but it was like, it was at Walman Rink. And so it was like kind of a closed thing. Right. And we're like, we're standing on some rocks. Yeah. And I'm like, who am I? Yeah.

I didn't even know this team existed four days ago. Yeah. I know. I'll tell you when I fall apart. It doesn't matter what sports I'm watching. I love sports. I quickly just glom on to whatever. What are we watching?

Oh, we're watching World Cup. Great. Okay. Oh, champion. Okay. whatever. I just glom on and I love it. It's the minute that moment of either triumph or failure happens, and you see the different emotions go across the faces of thousands of people who are sharing this moment with each other. Yeah.

I, like, cry. Every time. I cry every time. Every time. I didn't know anything about Jalen. I call him by his first name now. And I just was like, oh, like hearing his life story, I'm just like, uh-huh. And then. And, you know, you see his mom and I'm just like, forget it. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. But you're right. That shared grief is part of it, too.

It's not just the winning. It's failures and triumphs. And the reason, like, New York would have gone crazy no matter what, but 53 years means that there are whole generations of people who have never known their favorite team to be a winner at the end of the year. The most extreme example of this in my life is I'm a Red Sox fan. And they went 86 years. So 32 more years, 33 more years than the NICS did without winning.

And in that intervening time, sort of like the NICS, had a bunch of near misses, like a bunch of close calls and tragic failures and embarrassing errors made it the wrong time. And when they finally won in 2004, there was an article written, many articles written about the celebration that happened. And there was a story that I think about all the time, which is at three in the morning, a guy had a third. thought, which was, I need to share this with my dad. And his dad had passed away many years earlier and had never seen them win. He lived his entire life in a world in which they had never won the World Series. And his dad was buried at Mount Auburn Cemetery outside Boston, and he got a bottle of champagne and a Red Sox hat. He was like, I'm going to go to my dad's grave. I'm to leave him this bottle of champagne in this Red Sox hat and just celebrate with him. And he was

walking towards the cemetery and he was thinking like, how am I going to get in? Like, it's three in the morning. Like, there's a gate. It's locked. And as he was walking, he started to see other people walking in the same direction. He got to the cemetery. The guy who was the night guard at the cemetery had anticipated this and had unlocked the gate and opened it.

He walked to his dad's grave, put the hat in the champagne down, and saw like 11 other people just in his line of vision speaking out loud to people in their graves. This is making me tear up. I know. It's beautiful. It's so important. and meaningful. And if you think of sports as like a distraction, a diversion from the banality of everyday life, that's fine. That is what they are at some level. But when you have communities

that bond around these teams and the fandom is passed down from generation to generation, and important moments and memories are made alongside those teams and alongside those moments, then it becomes something else. Then it becomes a thing where, like, you are not thinking about necessarily like OG and Anobie's incredible tip in in game four. What you're thinking about is your grandmother who used to sit in her living room and watch Nick's games and root for them and who passed away 22 years ago and how much she would have loved this moment. And it connects you to her and it connects you to your kids and to your friends.

And it really is, there's a great quote from the Pope of all people, not this current Pope, but I think it was John Paul the second. who said about soccer, calling it football as Europeans do, he said, of all of the unimportant things, soccer is the most important. And that's how I think we should think of these things. It's like, yes, of course it's not as important as like a Supreme Court decision or a federal election or the eradication of a disease. But it is important and it's important in a way that really does matter

to an enormous number of people. And that's why we wanted to write the book. That's so great. Well, I think people are going to love your book. You know, we're so thankful for our office community and the office ladies fans and the fandom and family that we have found with them. And you guys, we love Mike Scher. We know you do too.

You're going to love his book. I'm going to put a link to it in our stories. Thank you. I hope you like it. Mike, thanks for joining us. It is my absolute pleasure. It's lovely to see you. And your generosity and talking all things, office and all things sports and fandom.

I love talking about the office. I'll talk about it forever. Anytime you want me to come talk about the office, I'll come back. Okay, great. Well, we have two more years of our contracts. There you go. Well, good job. Thank you.

All right. Thanks so much. That was wonderful. That was so fun. Thank you for listening to Office Ladies. Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. Our senior producer is Matt Beagle. And our audio engineer is Sam Pfeiffer. Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis.

Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Sholes. Our theme song is Ruppertry by Creed Bratton.