Offline with Jon Favreau - Erin Brockovich Is Taking On Data Centers

Episode Date: October 3, 2026

Erin Brockovich has spent three decades helping communities fight the biggest corporations and cruelest environmental injustices, inspiring an Oscar-winning movie along the way. Her latest cause is also her biggest: AI data centers and their insidious arrival to communities across the country. After scores of people wrote to her about the alarming influx of hyperscale projects, Erin launched Brockovich Data Center Reporting—which received nearly 4,000 submissions in its first month alone. She sits down with Jon to discuss everything she’s learned, what the industry gets wrong about the backlash, and whether there’s a way to build what we need without screwing over the people who have to live with it.Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends, on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel.You can request a transcript by emailing [e-mail]. Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.

Offline is brought to you by Zbiotics pre-alcohol. You guys know how much I love Zbiotics. All of us do here. It works. You take it before you have a couple drinks and you feel a lot better the next day. And that's all there is to it. I can tell you all the other stuff they have here

about how it works and I will. But all you should know is every single person who has asked me by Zibiotics and has tried it based on what I've said in these ads has come back and said, Oh my God, it works. You were right. Zbiotics, pre-alcohol, probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was engineered by PhD microbiologists to break down acetaldehyde, an unwanted byproduct of alcohol metabolism, and a word I can never pronounce.

Make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night drink responsibly and enjoy your next day activities. Zbiotics has sold more than 14 million bottles and earned the trust of thousands, including us. Try for yourself today, and if you are unsatisfied, they will refund your entire or. order, no questions asked. Head to zbiotics.com slash offline, code offline, for 15% off your first order. That's zbiotics.com slash offline code offline. U.S. voters abroad. Have you got your ballot yet?

All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters. So if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to vote from abroad.org and click request my ballot, ask to receive it by email. Questions? Ask our support team directly. Don't miss this gins to shape the future. Don't delay. Vote fromabroad.org. I created Brockovich Data Center. First day it crashed twice. By day three, every state was reporting. Multiple cities, multiple counties in every single state in the United States of America.

And that's when I went, oh, no, I'm cut full circle again. I'm like, oh, no. And we're going to end up with a real shit show here in about five years when technology's changed. You're going to abandon these little mini Chernobyl across America. It really does bother me that someone says, I'm on a fixed income. And now I have to choose whether I eat or I pay my electric bill. I'm sure you probably heard about there's a big pro-data center party in Washington, D.C. I did. I saw that. They can have all their fun at those parties.

But I invite you to come, bring your tent. We're going to stay by one of these data centers, okay? Yeah. And you're going to live in it for a while and see what kicks in for you. This isn't about stopping innovation. Again, this is about where you're building it, how you're building it, and what has to go along with that. This is our land. This is our water.

This is our future. This is our sanctuary. And it's just all at stake at once. It is possible to have innovation. But we cannot have it at the expense of humanity. D.C.'s hottest party last weekend was called Data After Dark. and it had everything. Tech bros and meta glasses,

dancing Bitcoin miners, neoliberal kickstreamers, AI photo booths, and a Bitcoin-sponsored whiskey activation, all packed into a crypto-founders bar, along with hundreds of other people who seemed pretty horny for data centers. I'm at DC's pro data center party,

and I'm asking why people love data centers. Because I love the internet, and it allows me to be on the internet. It's ridiculous to be against them, and I'd rather have them here than in China. And there's only one engine. that can propel the SMP 500 to even greater heights, and that's data center, that's compute. Why do I love data centers? My mother and my father met at a data center, and so if the data center

wasn't here, neither would I be. Hard to argue with that, but apparently, if you're not in love with data centers, or haven't fallen in love with anybody who works at one, there's something wrong with you. We cannot be the stupid people that chase them out. If you want to be poor, have no jobs, You would be killing the golden goose. When I look at Bernie Sanders and talk about data centers, so you actually want people to die of cancer? Or maybe you've just been brainwashed by China.

So why do people don't want them in their backyard? You know, a lot of people say that it's a China PR thing. There's foreign siops campaigns going on, trying to get the U.S. to stop building power, to get us to stop building data centers. It is a Chinese sci-op. I really believe that. It's not a conspiracy theory.

I think they're pushing those ideas. Of course, one other possibility, just throwing this out there, is that people actually have questions and concerns. That's what Aaron Brockovich found out earlier this year when she woke up one morning to a few dozen emails from people she'd never met. They all lived in the same Pennsylvania town,

and they were all worried about data centers. Which was weird because Aaron Brockovich, whose crusade against a company that had exposed hundreds of people to toxic waste inspired the Oscar-winning movie, didn't know that much about data centers. But instead of assuming these people were crazy, Erin decided to listen to them.

She put out a call for anyone who was concerned about a data center in their community to tell her about it. Her website crashed twice on the first day. Within a month, she'd received nearly 4,000 submissions from people who were worried about water, about noise, about pollution, and their electric bills, and their homes, and their neighborhoods. But the most common complaint was that no one had even told them what was happening. Why was a massive data center being built before anyone in the community had heard about it? Why were they finding out after the permits had already been approved?

Why had local officials signed non-disclosure agreements? If you haven't yet experienced what happens when a data center comes to town, you may someday get the chance. Like, I do guess that a lot of the world gets covered in data centers over time. Which is already happening. Data centers already power most of modern life. Every Google search, Netflix stream, Zoom call, cloud backup, and increasingly, every interaction with artificial intelligence. But AI requires a lot more computing power, which requires a lot more data centers.

In just four years, data centers are estimated to consume nearly 12% of all the electricity generated in the United States. More than 100 are currently under construction, and the AI companies already have plans to build hundreds more. They're taking over farmland and forests in rural areas and small towns, huge amounts of land, hundreds of acres, millions of square feet. Meta's next data center will be almost twice as big as Central Park. Some of those buildings are absolutely beautiful. They're big and they're, you know, big, strong, powerful buildings, but they're beautiful. And they add greatly to a community.

The president also said, and I quote, I would like to have data centers. It doesn't mean I want them right next to my house, but certainly I like them in my county. Well, sure. Imagine living next to one of these hyperscale data centers. They run all day and night. Their generators and cooling systems can create constant noise and air pollution. Depending on where and how they're built,

these data centers can consume enormous amounts of water. And because they also consume enormous amounts of electricity, data centers can require billions in new power plants, transmission lines, substations, pipelines, generators, costs that can end up on everyone else's utility bills. Which is why the vast majority of Americans aren't sold on data centers. Democrats, independents, Republicans, you see it in every poll no matter how the question is asked. There's more common ground on data centers than almost any other issue in politics right now.

Most Americans aren't comfortable with data centers being built in their communities. They think they're bad for the environment, bad for their utility bills, and bad for their quality of life. But the response from people who want to build these data centers, who have the power and money to make that happen, is to dismiss these concerns as stupid or manufactured or evidence of a Chinese sciop. They think that if you have questions about the giant construction project that suddenly appear down the street, you're suffering from some kind of psychosis, which is the word used by the very same people who just threw a data center party with cocktails named after small nuclear reactors and water cooling systems.

Telling someone they're mentally ill isn't usually the most persuasive argument, which is unfortunate because there are legitimate reasons to build data centers and to do it in ways that mitigate people's concerns and actually benefit communities. It is possible, for example, to design data centers that use dramatically less water and run on clean energy. It's possible to make AI companies pay for the extra power they use and pay to upgrade the electric grid instead of quietly sending the bill to everyone else. It's possible to make them pay communities billions of dollars in taxes instead of giving them billions of dollars in tax cuts. Loudoun County, Virginia, which has more data centers than

anywhere in the world, gets an enormous amount of revenue from these companies that's funded brand new schools and roads and parks. But this only happens if people and their elected representatives demand it. And they can only do that if they know about these data center projects before they get built and have a say over how they get built and where and on what turns. The most revealing thing about the thousands of complaints Aaron Brockovich has received, hasn't just been people worried about water or electricity or noise. It's how many people have told her how powerless they felt, like something enormous was happening where they live and they had no control over it. We have now lived through several decades of enormous technological change and economic upheaval

that are always explained to us as inevitable. Factories moving overseas, jobs getting automated, communities becoming hollowed out, tech companies stealing our privacy and our kids' child. childhood, social media breaking all of our brains, again and again, people who run these companies and our government tell us that this is all just the price of progress. Even when the people who pay the highest price don't get much of a say in how that progress happens. Now they're saying the same thing about AI, promising medical breakthroughs and automated agents and lives of leisure to people who can barely afford housing and have no idea whether their jobs will even exist in this new world. So yeah, people are going to be pissed when they're told about the giant, noisy buildings going up down the street that require massive amounts of water and electricity.

They may have to foot the bill for. People are sick of being told that the future is something that happens to them. In a democracy, we all deserve the chance to shape the forces that shape our lives. And that's what the activism around data centers is all about. That's why all across the country, these AI companies are finally being forced to stop and listen and negotiate with. people over land and water and utility rates before they're granted the privilege of operating in our communities. That's not standing in the way of progress. That's making sure everyone benefits from it, because the future shouldn't be something that a few powerful people get to

decide for everyone else. It belongs to all of us. My guest this week is Erin Brockovich, who spent more than three decades helping communities take on some of the biggest corporations and environmental fights in the country. She's not a scientist or a lawyer. She's not a scientist or a lawyer, and she'd probably be the first person to tell you that. Her superpower has always been listening to people, asking questions, and helping them figure out how to fight for themselves. Her latest fight over data centers is based on what she's found after hearing from thousands of people across the country. And it's a lot more complicated, more interesting, too, than the usual debates over whether these things are just good or bad. So I wanted to talk to her

about what she's learned, which concerns are real, what the industry gets wrong about the backlash, and whether there's a way to build what we need without screwing over the people who have to live with it. Here's Aaron Brockovich. Aaron Brockovich, welcome to the show. Hello. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's great to have you.

I want to spend most of our time talking about your work on data centers, but because it's connected, I'd love to start by going back to where all this started for you in Hinkley, California. Before the lawsuits and the movie and Julia Roberts, You were a file clerk who noticed medical records mixed in with real estate documents. What made you look at that and think something isn't right here? So that's a great beginning question because not to get off track, I'll come right back to it.

When I started the data centers, when it first happened, I was like, oh, no, I've just come full circle. Well, that's what made me think about it. I'm back in Incly, California. So that was a great question. And when Ed Masry brought me the file way back in the day, I was 31 years old, single mom of three, and he put the file on my desk. He asked me to open a PI file. And he said, you know how to do that?

And I'm like, yeah, sure, which I didn't know. So I thought I better go through the box. And I like, I'm very curious. And I'm oftentimes self-taught. And I'm like, I better teach myself exactly what it is he wants. And so as I was opening. files, I was curious about one in particular, and it was medical records. And it was done in blood test draws on a blood chart. So it was pretty easily for me to see, first of all,

why are medical records in a real estate, pro bono real estate case? Okay, that's interesting. But what really interested me was the bar graph. So it was, you know, off to the left, it was T cells and red cells and white counts and all of that. And, and, Every one of them was like, you could just see off the chart. You could just see where they were being flagged. And I thought, that's odd. But what even peaked my curiosity further was every one of the medical records, the names of the child and their ages were there.

And I'm like, why would children this young, if these were my kids, I'd want to know what's wrong. And so that's what really started my curiosity was those medical records of children. Now, obviously, data centers aren't chromium contamination, but when you started hearing from communities about data centers, what did you recognize from the fights that you've been involved in before? Like what sort of said, oh, this is maybe I've come full circle? Ever since the film came out, you know, when there's a big environmental problem, I get emails. And I get emails all the time. But when I get them in clusters, 15, 30, 40, 50 from the same town, that generally is my first clue. Something's going on.

So I woke up, gosh, when we do the map starting May, five, six months ago, there was 30 individual emails from a community in Pennsylvania. And they were all reporting issues, anger, lack of transparency about data centers. Look, data centers have been around for decades. We all know, you know, the cloud and stuff. I'm like, so that's odd. So what is going on in this town? And what's up with data centers? Because, you know, it was AI hyper-scale data centers.

So I started researching it. This is interesting. Now, I like to see the big picture. And I like to do maps because I can see the big picture. So I thought, huh, this is feeling like kinkly. because you're learning about data centers, utility companies, electricity, water consumption. Somebody is hiding something. I'm like, oh, no, am I going to do this?

I'm like, I wonder if it's just this town. So I created Brokevich Data Center and launched it. First day it crashed twice. By day three, every state was reporting. Multiple cities, multiple counties in every single state in the United States of America. and that's when I went, oh, no, I'm cut full circle again. I'm like, oh, no. And what really stood out for me, again, where I came full circle.

I remember distinctly so well, I'm like, oh, somebody's lying about something somewhere. Every single submission, every single submission from every county, every city, every state was all done under non-disclosure. And I'm like, wait, how does that happen? So that is how it started. What was the tenor of the complaints or the concerns that you were receiving from people? Well, so as they first started coming in, and there's still, to this day, it's all about non-disclosure. And I tell you something that I learned not only in Hinkley, but every single community I've been involved in. they like to be heard, they like to have a voice, they are cooperative, they want to seat at the table,

they want to have a conversation, and they want to know what's going on. So if you're transparent with them, they work with you. But the minute you hide from them or conceal from them or lie from them, the game changes. And that's exactly what was happening. So as information comes in, I like to work in silos. So we started because the submissions range from proposal. We're in the fight stage. We're in the cover up stage.

And then submissions were coming in. We're in the construction phase. And then submissions coming in up and running. So I can kind of run what's going on from proposal through construction to up and running. And just to dig into the NDAs, right? because you said that like the number one concern, you know, wasn't actually water or electricity or noise, that that's part of it.

But it's this transparency. Right, right. But this transparency issue. And like, how common are NDAs between local governments and developers? I guess it could happen one-offs here and there. But this is where I'm like going, wait a minute. How, I'm looking at this whole picture, how did every one of these at the same time get,

put under NDAs, different states, different permits, different regulations and rules and all of that. That's what really surprised me. It was so secretive. Now, communities and people underestimate communities often. They are smart. They want answers. And again, another thing that I started seeing from them pretty early on was they were doing FOIA requests, freedom of information request. And multiple states, people were reporting from their FOIA request that the NDAs were signed in 2021 and 2022. I'm like, oh, oh, so you know, I could really go down a rabbit hole here. What's going on? I was going to say, like, what have you learned about why the NDAs were signed and why the

companies that want to build these hyperscale data centers want NDAs? is to be signed? Is it they are doing something secrets that they don't want people to find out about? Is it that they just don't want to go through the messy process of, you know, democracy and local input and having been people, you know, having conversations about this? Or what is it? I think it's all of the above. Sure, because I think they probably already know. We come in here and, you know, we're going to rip up 3,500 acres and create this massive noise and destruction of wildlife and your sanctuary and drop your property values and raise your utility bills and you're going to worry about your health.

Now, maybe we should keep it on the lowdown. I will say that shortly after this started and the public opposition started to get really big. Microsoft removed all of its NDAs. Now, a little too late for that because now people really don't trust you. But I think that there was, they're going to cite national security reasons. But as you get further and further into this, and I have. learn more and more information as this goes on, that on the NDA side is there changing ordinances.

So I've had many communities report. I just got a submission out of Florida that really startled me that the developer is writing and rewriting the zoning ordinances for the city council. I'm like, whoa. and they're writing the ordinances for the PUC. I'm like, whoa, how the hell is this going on? So I think that is what the NDAs were about because they didn't want people to know they are changing zoning ordinances. They're doing all of that.

And if you're open about that, people are going to say, whoa, wait a minute. So it was a surprise attack. I hate to even use that word. but it feels that way to people because now that when they do get notices, it's too late, everything's already been signed. They're like, what is happening here? So I think there's a lot of reasons why they want to keep it secret. And it could be about, you know, water consumption or utilities. It could be about we're going to rezone this and we're going to rezone agricultural land.

If you give people a heads up, you're going to get an immediate resistance. I don't think they saw this type of public opposition. company. And what about the local officials that signed these NDAs and approved these projects? Like, what were they getting out of it? What have they been getting out of it? Money. You know, they come in with all this kind of money. So we've got to look at, you know, we're talking about the biggest corporations with the most money in the entire world. And so when you come in and most data centers historically, again, data centers, we are now talking about AI hyper-scale data centers. This is important, I think, because people think data centers and they're like, okay,

it's a building down the road and then they pay some money in the community, it's great. But these are like massive now, right? They are massive. And it is for AI. They are building these new data centers for artificial intelligence. So data centers have been around for decades. And they're normally more in the city. And so with the AI hyperscale data centers, and because they need so much land, guess what? They're moving into rural zones. So they're inside the infrastructure, inside of America, and all these rural locations in Indiana and Ohio and Kansas and Missouri and Wisconsin, and you name it. And all of a sudden, these AI hyperscale data centers have become the problem. And these AI hyperscale data centers cannot function or operate without Earth.

without water, without electricity, without copper. You know, I think people think that the cloud is something just ethereal floating around out there. Right. When it's actually the only way any of this work is tethered to the earth. Yeah, it's servers. Absolutely. And those servers can't do their job without massive amounts of water and electricity. So now these AI hyperscale data centers are exactly.

what public opposition is and exactly what has set these communities off. You have, you've just come in, they've had no say. They feel completely mowed over. And you're, we're not talking about one town, one community, one utility, and one aquifer. We are now talking about these people that are coming up against the biggest people with money around, that is jeopardizing the water, the land, the air, their wildlife, their tourism, their economic base, their sanctuaries, and they're fearful for their future help. So everything at once is at stake for them.

Offline is brought to you by Lean. GLP1 injections have been the talk of the weight loss industry for years now, for good reason, the results are dramatic. They're powerful medications that work by lowering blood sugar and reducing appetite. So what if you're looking to lose weight but not interested in painful weekly injections? Especially considering some of those

intense side effects you've likely heard about. Whether you're in pursuit of a personal fitness goal or want to refresh your daily wellness routine, managing your weight can feel like an uphill battle. That's why the team at Brickhouse Nutrition developed lean, a dietary supplement designed to support your everyday health journey. Formulated with quality ingredients,

Lean helps support healthy blood sugar balance, aid metabolism, and help manage craving so you can feel more in control of your daily routine. Lean is designed for individuals looking for structured support on their dedicated weight management journey. Get started with 20% off and free rush shipping so you can add lean to your healthy diet and exercise plan. Visit takelein.com and enter offline for your discount. That's promo code offline at takelein.com. Offline is brought you by FreshBooks. Whether you just launched your service business or you've been at it for years,

the money side has a way of pulling you from the work you actually love doing. FreshBooks changes that. FreshBooks makes the financials of your service-based business easy. Log your hours, send a branded invoice, get paid, and know your numbers instead of chasing them. Money in, money out, all in one place. No more juggling one app for clients, another for billing, plus a pile of spreadsheets and emails.

FreshBooks is designed for how small business owners think about money, not how an accountant does. You don't need a financial background to use FreshBooks, simple on purpose. Most owners are up and running in minutes, not days. And if you need help, a real person is available on every plan. FreshBooks has been trusted by service businesses for over 20 years, helping over 500,000 owners and solopreneurs run their business confidently. Right now, my listeners can get FreshBooks for less than $3 a month for your first four months. That's 90% off. Head to FreshBooks.com slash podcast to get started. That's 90% off under

$3 a month for four months at FreshBooks.com slash podcast. So I want to walk through for people like each of the different main areas of concerns over data centers. And let's start with the water. When should people legitimately worry about a data center's water use and when are some of the scarier numbers possibly misleading? Generally, you know, at that proposal phase, they're coming in too late because they're finding out too late. and they're already, you know, started. Everything's already signed. So they're not really having a voice.

You just ask a question that they all want to ask, had they been included at that meeting. And I do not think it's unreasonable. Look, I don't think this is about trying to stop innovation. This is about where you're building them, how you're building them, what resources are going to be taken without any type of questions. They don't want you to ask questions. and anybody, especially farmers and ranchers and people in those rural areas, that's the first question

that they would be asking you. Okay, what kind of acreage are you looking at? You know, what kind of aquifer are you going to be in? What kind of water consumption are you going to be using? Will it affect our livestock? They would have naturally asked those questions, but they didn't get that chance. And some people just literally were so left out, all of a sudden they're. like, why are they tearing all the trees down?

How different is a facility that uses evaporative cooling in like a drought-prone community from one using closed-loop cooling or recycled wastewater? So the closed-loop system, so there's a little wizardry going on here in the closed-loop system. For people who don't know, you always hear it. The response to concerns over water is, well, now they can design them. so that they are closed loop, which for people who don't know is they can basically just use less water. So they are just recycling the water or there's a water in a closed loop.

And so the concerns about the water, it's actually small compared to all the kinds of, you know, the amount of water, all kinds of other things in our lives use and machines. And so it's... Oh, and the comparison to the golf courses. Right, yeah, exactly. They use the golf course. And so, you know, we've got closed loop cooling and recycled wastewater. and now everything's fine.

No. So normally you have like in Hinkley, California, you have, you know, open air evaporation that's on site. And so these, again, these AI hyperscale data centers, they would use a lot of water. And there was a lot of opposition, as we know, about that water consumption. So now it's the, we've gone to closed loop.

And here's kind of your wizardry. So, yes. If you are not doing open air on site, you are saving water at that location. But when you go off-site, when you do closed loop, you have and will possibly use more water consumption off-site. Because you now have to power electricity to all of the DCs, the data centers. And so what's happening is you're just, it's a trade-off. you're not saving water. You could actually be using more water consumption. Water power is electricity, and you've got to now get all this electricity to these data centers. So it's called the water

electric paradox. It has been a paradox. Engineering hasn't figured it out forever because you're cannibalizing basically water for electricity or one or the other. So it's not necessarily saving water. It is possibly going to consume more water offsite. And now we have, here comes the electricity side of it. Here's another thing that people are starting to get enraged about. All of these massive 765K volt lines that are coming through their property, they're taking it by imminent domain, and all these transmission lines, you've got to run power to the DC. So you're either going to do it by firing up coal plants or new energy plants because that's how you're going to get electricity. So it's called the water electric paradox. And it's really interesting because

I was speaking at the UN in New York for Climate Week. And your sustainable developmental goals, SDG6, which is water and SDG7, are now in conflict with each other. And we can't can't cannibalize one or the other. So I think there's a real mandate that we and these huge tech guys, you're shooting everything off to space. You created this AI. I don't know why you can't solve the water electric paradox. Well, and on the electricity issue, I mean, obviously you get a lot of concerns about that. You know, my understanding is that giant data centers don't have to raise everyone else's electric bills, but that this is a regulatory choice about who pays for new generation and grid infrastructure. And is that right? Absolutely. And so, you know, people, my gosh,

you know, of all these submissions, it just always, it just really bothers me when, because now, it looks like everything's going to get kicked off to us to pay for. That isn't the way this should be. You want these AI hyperscale data centers, I think there should be oversight. And I don't think it's unreasonable to do that at all. You know, this is classic big corporate

behavior that just wants to kick the can down the line for the sake of money. And we're going to end up with a real shit show here in about five years when technology's changed. You're going to abandon these little mini Chernobyls across America. Yeah. Why we can't

get them on the up front to pay for what they need to pay for and their safety and their infrastructure and it should be their infrastructure. Listen, we have an infrastructure out there that we all know is aged and antiquated. It can't handle this. And so people are worried about the cost coming to them and it's happening. Now, more and more states are getting involved, more and more, you know, local legislation and things are coming out, even the state of Texas. And Texas is a big situation. going on out there, is said, wait a minute, I'm not even going to do anymore, allow this until we have an idea about the electricity and you're going to pay for it and the consumers aren't.

But I have people writing to me already. Their electricity bills and their water bills are going up 2 to 400 percent. And they're sending me before and after. And to get emails, these submissions, it really does bother me that someone, says, I'm on a fixed income. And now I have to choose whether I eat or I pay my electric bill. I'm like, what is going on out there? And so, yeah, this is all the stuff that we kind of monitor in the arc. And I will say here, you know, when I very first got involved and started doing a lot of research, and there was people out there already definitely grumbling around where you had maybe

30 individual local areas looking at pauses, moratoriums for a year. Rare if you saw one that was a full-on ban. Those numbers are now over 600 since this public opposition started where people are definitely starting this conversation. And sometimes, listen, you voted him in, we're going to vote you out. Yeah. Festus, Missouri was one of the first towns to do that. They just voted them all out. Voted all the data centers now.

Absolutely. And kind of to answer your question, you to ask earlier what's happening with these city council members, they've never seen this kind of money come in. And it's hard for them to turn away and go, well, you know, we could use this money for schools or for, you know, parks or replacing what you've destroyed, which communities are now reporting back, they haven't done that at all. But I do think at a city council level, it's really hard for them to overcome these giant companies and the money that's involved. And so sure, I'm going to sign an NDA, but the deeper you get into it, the city councils in a ways are getting

moved out because they're writing city council ordinances. They're doing and changing the rezoning. And so it's hard for them. But people are definitely opposing city councils. They are firing in them. They are getting them out of office. I think we all saw what happened in Utah with Kevin O'Leary. And that public opposition, that was quite steep. And eventually, you know, the governor came in and he said,

we're going to have to just scale this back because of the public opposition. But you remember, they just went through elections and their Speaker of the House lost. And all those eldermen that voted this in, they're gone. So I think that these community members are really paying attention to what's going on with their city councils and their local representatives and their state reps on these data center situations. And they, I think they're going to shift tracks. They're very upset. If the companies are forced to pay the full incremental cost of the electricity that the DCs need, including generation and grid upgrades, and they use renewable energy, like how much of people's objections do you think dissipate?

Not a lot. One, you're too late. You're too late. You already came in and full-on. secrecy with non-disclosures. So now there's a situation where they don't trust you. So it's a trust then? Yeah, absolutely. Now they and do not trust them. And so I think there will be hesitation. I think the look at it, we should have, see, this is where I just don't understand companies

like this. I don't know why you don't deal with your problems on the upfront. Yeah, I think we can get away with it. All of us have to change. I think corporates. I think corporations need to change their business model. And if you go back and look at what happened with the Ford Pinto theory, you know, where the gas tank was at the back. Oh, yeah. And if you got hit, it would blow up. Well, the company made a decision, you know, is more expensive to fix the line problem, right? And it's cheaper to run it down the line.

And I think some corporations, if not a lot of them, have gone with that philosophy the whole time. None of this would have had to happen. This backlash would have never happened. had these companies on the upfront, been honest and not kick this down the line and been transparent, there could have been a different outcome. So now the people tend to not trust, but now they're going to talk about, okay, so you're going to pay for electricity. But it's the disruption to their land, the uncertainty about the closed loop and the chemicals that are involved. what if there's a breach? And we've already seen several breaches. We've seen one in Wyoming,

Shai in Wyoming, where they had a bad bacteria. We just saw a breach with 5,000 gallons of diesel. And it's, again, about electricity. And some of these facilities are proposing 2,500 to 3,000 diesel generators. So now these people have these monstrosities in their backyard. Their wildlife has gone. And the people that are very close to them. And literally, it's not like they got an option to show up at a city council and go, okay, we want a 20-mile buffer. They didn't even get that. These are literally in their backyards.

And they are loud. This is like being around. Yeah, I was going to ask about the noise. It's, I can't tell you how many submissions we have of the headaches. That kind of decibel, 24. or seven, there's no peace that the headaches, the anxiety, the problems they're seeing with children, the reports from ranchers about this high decibel is very concerning to them because it's very stressful to the animals. So ranchers are starting to report more stillbirths

because it's very, very stressful for them. And again, bringing in all these power lines, I've had more veterinarians who've been taking care of livestock and dairy cattle for 35, 40, 45 years. And what they're very concerned about is all these lines coming in until they're grounded to the D.C., you can have stray bolts everywhere. And they have seen industries get wiped out for miles because of this. So I guess that was, I can be long winded. No, that's what I was going to ask about this all. To come in now and ask these communities something different, I just, I probably, I think they're going to go, no. Yeah, I was watching this video that More Perfect Union did of this couple and the data center goes like up right next to where they live.

And they're like, it's, it goes all day and all night at night. You can see like the lights shining into their people's house every single night and the noise. Yes. At like two, three, four in the morning, waking them up. And she's like, that is wild. It is. Like, there's nothing you can do about that and that just happens. Right, and they have no choice.

And, you know, and believe me, nobody's going to want to be buying these houses. You know, and I have concerns from whistleblowers inside that are emailing me. And things that, they're building them with no permits. I'm like, what? I mean, things that you don't want to hear. And they're, they're even. I'm reporting, listen, I may be the electrician in here, but this is going to be a year job, and then I don't have a job. And then it takes very few to actually, once they're up and running,

man it. But now you've destroyed an area where you may have a lot of fly fishing or tourism goes away or property values have gone down, and they don't have a job. So they're even reporting the idea that this is so economically great. We don't see that happening. So let's say someone here's tomorrow that a company wants to build a hyperscale AI data center in their community? Like, what should they be pushing their local officials to demand from that company? Like, what's the Aaron Brockovich checklist? Well, A, what is the water consumption? I mean, how many acres is this going to be?

What is the water consumption? What's our buffer? Are you a mile back? Are you right up our ass? Are you going to be 20 miles back? What about electricity? Will these big, you know, 765 K-volt transmission lines be coming through? Those are the kind of questions that they need to know. Is there a way to build it that you think, because they're going to get built, right? And like, are there ways to build them that you think would satisfy a lot of the problems? Even if people don't trust them, if, you know, there was, if tomorrow. we can all wake up and there were new laws passed and new regulations.

Like, what is the ideal way to build these data centers? That's a great question. And one that always baffles me because there is another way. And there are other solutions. What is this rush to have them done this way when, you know, that's interesting. So, again, I'm not about stopping innovation. And these data centers don't have to be done the way they're being done. I get on AI.

I learned in Hinkley oftentimes can take kind of their own information and use it against them for the right reason. So I get on AI and I'm like, okay, so everyone thinks you're so smart. You tell me where you would build all the data centers in the United States. And it wrote back if I had to redesign and how we built the data centers in the United States, I do it based on one simple rule. Zero contact with human resources. Okay. Now, you're all going to say, AI is so smart. Now, you're either going to listen to it or you're not because you built it or you're going to be a hypocrite.

Which is it? Because it's telling you no human resources. So there are other solutions. There are, let's talk about all the caverns that exist. What about looking at building them underground? underground where it's dark and cool and water and isn't going to interfere with, you know, the land and the transmission lines and electric bills.

I've read many articles. Maybe you have two about Samsung that's putting them out on barges and using the waves as energy and keeping them up in, you know, in the cool climates up north where it's drizzly and overcast because that's what they need. you know, there are other solutions. There are conversations being had about building them smaller where, like, the size of your Mac laptop right there,

everybody could have one of those on the outside of their house. So smaller underground in locations where, and first of all, we're building these things that are water hogs and electricity hogs on two thirds of the United States is in a huge drought. Yeah. And that makes no sense either. So there are other solutions and other options. I think that will be coming down the line. And we're going to look back on go, why the hell do we even get put through this exercise?

Because they will possibly, these massive AI hyperscale data centers will be obscure. Like how many times have we got upgrades on our phones? I mean, they're changing constantly. So that's the thing that gets my goat. There are solutions to it. Offline is brought to by Quince. We're officially back in the full swing of fall

and all of the busyness that entails. When it comes to getting dressed in the morning, most of us are looking for high-quality pieces we can throw on without thinking too hard and still look great. The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or a no-fail t-shirt that stands up to wear after wear.

Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. They focus on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become dependable pieces that you reach for day after day. Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60, giving you the softness and quality you'd expect

from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. And when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with premium down jackets and classic wool outerwear, versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup.

I love Quince. I got some polos there over the summer. I got some sneakers that I still wear that are great. I got one of those Mongolian cashmere sweaters. And I'm looking forward to getting some more fall stuff. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive. offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available

in Canada in the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was offline. It's the best way to support the show. U.S. voters abroad. Have you got your ballot yet? All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters. So if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to vote from abroad.org and click request my ballot. Ask to receive it by email. Questions? Ask our support team directly. Don't miss this chance to shape the future.

Don't delay. Vote fromabroad.org. Loudoun County is fascinating to me because on one hand, it's got more data centers than anywhere, and they've generated enormous tax revenue that has helped pay for, like, you know, beautiful new schools and public services and community centers, and you see all the pictures. On the other hand, even Loudoun County residents are getting increasingly concerned about the sheer scale of the buildout. What do you make of that sort of the story of these communities where they're just showered with tax revenue from these data centers and they have all these upgrades and yet still people are sort of angry about these? Well, again, I think because it all began misleading.

And as it began down in Loudoun County in that whole AI data center alley, it's one thing that there's one or two around. But, you know, this has just gone like on steroids. I said from day one on this, I said, oh, my God, this is Hinkley on steroids. You know, imagine a utility company like PG&E within your livable space. But now there's 20. And so I think in Loudoun County, that's what's happened. It's slowly started to build up.

and now it's really been building up. The top five states that are, well, it's going to be more than five, but Loudoun County, Virginia is one of them. Texas, Indiana, Ohio. And I've watched as more come online, the more frustrated they get, because they may be coming closer to them.

They're now hearing the noise. They're now experiencing the lights. They're now noticing that wildlife is gone. And they may now be questioning, is this really worth giving up, you know, what about our? water, you know, what about our wells? I mean, people are having to drill wells. Their water's already slowing down to a trickle. I've been working with one gentleman, and his name is Austin Newsom,

and he took on Amazon alone because he lost his well water. They're bringing transmission lines. He's losing his business. He got all the way to the pellet court, and they held for him, and I think that they're very close to resolving this. And he's been in that area, but it wasn't until, again, it got closer to him and right across the street that he really started to see what was happening. So I think that is what's gone on in Loudoun County and they're very loud and they are very vocal about more being brought in. And people are reporting that, you know, their water is brown or tepid or especially during construction. People out on, you know, further out into Loudoun County that are on their wells are noticing their well water's drying up and they're having to drill new wells. So as they start,

to see what's happening. And remember it takes time, you know, from the time it starts into construction to see these issues that they are increasingly frustrated. I'm sure you probably heard about there's a big pro-Data Center party in Washington, D.C. last weekend. Organizers described the backlash as bipartisan psychosis. And, you know, other people have said, you know, they've talked about people being Luddites and who fear progress and, you know, the President of the United States is out there saying that the only reason to oppose data centers is if you want to be poor and backwards. When people who've contacted you hear stuff like that, what do you think the pro data center set like fundamentally misunderstands about the people who are concerned about them?

Well, again, you know, you say that, that is trying to stop innovation. And I don't think that it is. You know, we are at the pre-haping. height of the AI Industrial Revolution. And so maybe the older set of us has an idea about how some of those things go. And, you know, we can change course. It doesn't mean you change the innovation. You can just change course on how big it's going to be or what it could do or not do. And I think that they just jump on a bandwagon to say something.

And I'm always interested in that. And it always, I've said this before, and I do. don't know why I bring it up, but I'm going to anyway, in the Johnny Depp trial. He's like, yep, were you there? And so I feel like that. I mean, you see these parties, and I'm like, well, are you there? So you're just going along with something. And sure, we all want innovations.

But we also, I think I've just learned, and we kind of talked about that, you can change something on the upset. You can have innovation, but you don't. have to do it an antiquated way that jeopardizes all of our resources when you guys are so smart and again i'm telling you i get on there with ai and ask it all the time and it'll even come back and tell you i've even i've said hey let me ask you something so if half of these data centers in opposition gets stopped what would it do to you a i said oh it would exponentially slow me down because it needs that does but yet everybody at it we see how they're building them so

fast. Absolutely. And now you're even seeing them say, well, maybe we should slow this down. So I don't think it's all or nothing. I think it's a conversation. It's happened too fast. Opposition is here. You have other alternatives. And oftentimes they don't take the other alternatives because it's going to cost more money. Right. It's always the bottom line. So those parties, I just think, are, I just think they want to be different. They just want to say the opposite. And that's fine. And you can until One's in your backyard, and I promise you, you'll be saying something. We even heard the other day. I mean, President Trump is on my backyard.

So, I mean, again, are you just there to protest to protest? This isn't about stopping innovation. Again, this is about, as we opened up with, where you're building it, how you're building it, and what has to go along with that. And the stakes are too high. The stakes are too high. This is our land. This is our, you know, water.

This is our future. this is our sanctuary. These are our property values. And it's just all at stake at once. Yeah, the thing that worries me about it is that the pro data center crowd and a lot of these companies, they think this is, and some of the people at the parties said this to reporters, they think it's a PR crisis, right? Like, they don't see it as a, they only see it as like a, like a public relations problem to solve. And they are now belatedly throwing money at the problem. And so I feel like you have seen this shift. I don't know if you've seen it as well, where You know, it used to be that these data centers would come into town and the local communities would like shower them with tax breaks and let them set up.

And now they're doing more of the Loudoun County version where they're, you know, paying a bunch of tax revenue to these communities. They're starting to say, okay, well, we'll do renewable energy or we'll pay for the electricity. But I wonder when you have, I mean, you made this point when you have like broken faith with people. and you've lied to them or you haven't been up front with them. Like, you've seen this. You've been doing this work for a long time. Like, how do you rebuild trust? Very slowly.

You know, when I started Hinkley, it was out about building trust. You know, I just didn't walk into Hinkley, you know, slinging stuff around and this and that. I mean, I had to get to know these people. And they tested me. And I would have to come back. And I would have to come back. And I would have to come back. Because, see, they're sensing you out.

Oh, you're going to show up, but are you going to come back? And so they'd stall me out, and then I'd come back. And it took me over a year every day of my life out there to, you know, they would call. They would put me to the task. I'd love to have a meeting with you. We'll be at church on Sunday. Would you like to go to church with us? And I'm like, yes, I would.

And so trust takes a long time to build. And so I think that they will be skeptical, but I always think that they will be willing to listen. But so many of these things have happened so fast. I mean, even the dismantling process is going to be an absolute nightmare for communities. So I think it would be slow for them to believe anything. Well, so much of this also right now seems based on promises, voluntary, commitments from these companies does certainly seem like if you're going to go through a revolution like this and a physical build out of infrastructure like this, you might want to have some laws,

regulations. Well, and hear that. Yeah, so then we don't have to just base everything on voluntary commitments from companies that suddenly feel like they have to solve a PR crisis. And then they act surprised. You're surprised? Like I said, you know, at a municipal level, there was about, I don't know, a handful in the beginning that are now flat out bans, moratoriums for a year, moratoriums for a two year, in 600 plus municipalities. And now you have 10 states that are starting to look at oversight. Again, I don't think it's unreasonable. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Right. That it's unreasonable that we do that. And that doesn't mean a stop.

But it does mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to go, what's the scale? What's the water amount? What's the electricity? Who's going to pay for it? What's it going to do to property values? How close are these to homes? I mean, it's just not unreasonable. And so, yeah, I think there is a pause here.

Again, I don't know what those companies think, but I think that they were shocked at the public opposition. They did not see that coming. Yeah. And they should have. Again, always starts with a lie. Always starts with the cover-up. I will say you don't see a lot of hyperscale data centers up by the companies themselves in Northern California. No.

In Silicon Valley. You don't. Right? I think it's a necessary cause. It's kind of like the people who don't, like the people who work in social media companies who like don't give phones to their kids and social media to their kids. Right. Because they know. They do.

They know. And I think even when they get caught, they don't like. But we are watching something happening again. We're there even asking for this slowdown. You know, and I think about that all the time when I go on and ask, oh, AI, you're so smart. And AI and I'm like, F you and F that and you're wrong and that's BS. Try again. And it doesn't know everything.

It is about you have to know what questions you're asking. You have to be able to use it as a tool. You can't believe every, I have had to correct it so many times that comes out of its whatever. It is. But I think possibly, and I'm watching this slowdown happen for a whole host of reasons. But I have been in there enough and I've learned enough, like I said, taking their own information and use it against them. AI has shown me that it's exposing them. So which is it going to be?

Right. And so I think there's an interesting moment here where we can correct course. It is possible to have innovation, but we cannot have it at the expense of humanity. Yeah. When the movie came out, you know, you became the symbol of an ordinary. person taking on a giant corporation. There was quite a few takeaways of what I may or may not have been after that film came out. Well, I was going to say, was there anything about the real story that the movie missed that you think would be useful for people to take away now as, you know, another generation of ordinary people are trying to take on big corporations in this data center fight?

Boy, nobody has ever asked me that. but it took me, it's taken me a long time to look back to even be able to answer that question. One of the first things that struck me, and it probably goes back to my dyslexia. So I'm a dyslexic. So very early on, I was labeled and judged and perceived and cast aside and you're stupid and you're over here and goodbye. And I happen to have two great parents who saved me from that. but I never understood any of that because I didn't like school, so I was always outside. It was my natural environment that taught me everything.

My common sense was alive and well, my powers of observations. I mean, I didn't need when I was outside playing on a hot summer day in Kansas, and, you know, the thunderheads are at 65,000 feet, and the air is pretty oppressive, and a tornado siren goes off. I didn't need to like, oh, let me call the weather channel to ask, is it at F4 or an F5. No, because my instincts, my intuition, my power of observation, they were alive and well, and I knew to go to safety. So when I began my work in Hinkley, I recognized right away the people's suppression because I too was being asked, are you a doctor? Are you a lawyer? Are you a scientist?

Are you a politician? What is it you do? And why should we even listen to you? And I'm like, that god, I was gobsmacked. I'm like, oh, I go, well, I never thought I had to be any of that to tell you that those two-headed frogs and that green water is fucked up and I'm not leaving. And being rooted in that. And I think at some level with all of the, you know, how social media is now, we've lost that connection. And these are youth in many ways have lost that connection.

And there is a lot to experiencing it, witnessing it, feeling it, and recognizing just that gut sense. Wait a minute, something's not right. And every one of us has that moment. Listen to it. Listen to it. Let that stop you to go, why? Because I've always been that person and most of us are. If my head, my heart, my gut aren't synced up, oh, I'm a whack-a-doodle, right?

And so why is that? And I think that would be, you know, what I teach people and what people in Hinkley taught me is about using your logic. That's your common sense. Leverage often has a bad connotation, an idea that it's a bank, and they're going to leverage this or do something like that. I learned in Hinkley, our leverage was mathematically one plus one equals two. But in the power of community and leveraging that, one plus one becomes a thousand or more. that's a movement and that's what they were doing and just sticking with it you know my mom mom taught me about stick tootiveness now a propensity to follow through in a determined manner dogged persistence

born of obligation and stupers a ding ding ding that is my middle name but we get involved in something and we just too easily give up and it takes time to get an answer it takes time to do research and you have to stick with it yeah can you imagine it is Super Bowl, you know, throw your ball down on the 10-yard line you walk off, you're going to get booed out of there. No. If you had to take a break, take a break. But stay in the game.

And I think a lot of that may have been lost with some of these next generations, but I would encourage them to reconnect. Reconnect to your environment, reconnect to your instincts. These are real. This isn't a joke. This is a waddy-dottie, you know, Shirley MacLean moment, all this or that. Yeah. It's real.

It's real. And reconnect to that. I think it's really important. So they can have all their fun at those parties. But I invite you to come, spin, bring your tent. We're going to stay by one of these data centers, okay? Yeah. And you're going to live in it for a while and see what kicks in for you.

So it's easy to say something. But again, if you're not there, you don't know. And that's what always bothered me about the people of Hinkley. They knew what they saw, but the company wanted to knock them off of that. What you see isn't real. No. But don't ever say that to me. No. So it's this matter of just getting back into yourself and going, really, really? That is. That's not right. Fantastic advice for this battle and for our time, really. So thank you so much.

I think we're getting back to it, though. I think so too. You know, for all our forward progress, you know, I think sometimes we take a few back steps of things that maybe we have forgotten. Listen, none of my grandchildren and there are four. 14, 12, 9, 2 at 12, 14. I forget, there's six of them, but three that live in. No social media. They are outside. They are riding bikes.

They're down on the river bottom. They're collecting frogs. They'd be the first one to go. Ah, those two had of frogs, that's kind of odd, don't you think? Dirt bike racing. You know, we're swimming, the ocean, all of it. And they're very smart. I just think we've moved away from this natural environment that we are tethered to.

And I think if you move back to it, and that's why I feel with these data centers, you're seeing such public opposition. It's everything at once. Yeah. You know, my dad always taught me, Aaron, air, land, water, your family and your future health. Those are the gifts you've got. Every one of those is at stake with the... these massive AI, hyper-scale data centers.

When there's, oh, you're all so smart. Let's fix this water energy paradox. There's other solutions. There's other options. Stop pushing down the line for the sake of you to make more money and for us to lose everything else. That model doesn't work. And it's as antiquated as our infrastructure.

And I expect more than that from them than to, to just mow all of our land and resources and people over. And I think they're on to it. So at the pre-height of this AI Industrial Revolution, you know what's really changed? When I'm watching change is the people. Yeah. I mean, watching this backlash and how it's organized

and, you know, the most powerful grassroots movements, I think political grassroots movements are, happen without any politicians or leaders being aware that they're even coming. And this is an issue that I think a lot of politicians, even people who are more opposed to what's been happening with data centers and how they've been built, they've missed it too because they, you know, you can't really get it from reading a poll, even though the polls show that vast majorities of people are against this. But when you actually hear people talk about this and you go to these communities,

Like you have, it's a different story. And that's where the real power is, I think. Oh, that's where it always is. And I have absolutely learned in 30 years. 98% of the time these environmental issues start with a mom who's got a sick kid. And she's trying to figure out what's going on. And I have definitely learned when that mom joins and finds another mom. And they do.

And they become a mom of 50. and they're organizing. They're now sharing information. And it takes a lot of courage. It really does in communities. And it was even that way for the people in Hinkley. We just don't naturally, like, talk to our neighbor and go, and by the way, does your son have this leukemia?

Or have you been having these experiences? Because people think you're crazy. They don't want to do it. But when they find each other that way and they start that power of leverage, I'm telling you, that one pissed off mom and she goes and finds five more pissed off moms and then we go up to 2050 at that point on their cheerleader. I'm just getting out of their way. They know what to do. So I think it's groundbreaking through courage and getting to know your neighbor again or what's

going on with other children in that school. And then they make it their job to start asking complicated questions about health or blood test or engineering. or something that they think they can't understand. Yes, they can when they put their mind to it. So I'm watching that activation in amazement, not in one town in Hinkley, California, but in multiple towns in every single state in the United States. And I want to tell you I now have 20 countries reporting submissions to the map. Wow.

I was baffled with the three recent ones that came in from Japan. Guess what? All non-disclosure. I might, oh my gosh. So we go from a town to this country, to the globe. How? I think that this is a very big, very big, very big, very big global issue. Erin Brockovich, thank you so much for sitting down with me and talking about this. I hope we could follow up. I told you I'd go back and forth and here and there. Fantastic. It's everything we needed. Thank you. Thank you. It's nice to be here. John Favreau is a Crooked Media production.

Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Emma Ilic Frank, and Anisha Banergy. Our team includes Dilan Velaunweva, Mia Kelman, Charlotte Landis, Eric Schute, Rachel Gaieski and Will Jones with support from Adrian Hill and Matt DeGrope. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.