Offline with Jon Favreau - Fighting the Broligarchs with Senator Chris Murphy

Episode Date: February 2, 2025

Senator Chris Murphy joins Offline with a warning for his fellow Democrats: the longer we take to counter Trump’s horrifying shock and awe strategy, the harder it will be to get up off the mat.  The Connecticut Senator shares how the pardoning of January 6th protestors has impacted his personal security, what the Republican party is getting right about helping people find purpose, and why the handover of power to tech overlords is such a bad, bad idea. But first! Jon and Max dive into DeepSeek to unravel whether it’s the Sputnik of AI, debate if Republican influencers are using a new playbook, and unpack Elon Musk’s recent comments at a German far right rally. Then, they bid farewell to the Gulf of Mexico and offer some context on why Google is bending to Trump’s whims. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

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helpful service. And then, and it's important also not to just do it once, but to keep doing it periodically, which Delete Me does. So it's great. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan by texting OFFLINE to 64000. Text OFFLINE to 64000. That's OFFLINE to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Hi, Offline listeners. I want to recommend a podcast I think you'll enjoy, Possible, co-hosted by co-founder of LinkedIn, Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger. Possible is an award-winning show that explores the brightest

version of our future and what it will take to get there. Tune in to hear Reid and Arya interview AI leaders such as Fei-Fei Li about how human-centered AI can enhance spatial intelligence, Bill Gates on the power that we have with AI to change our lives, and Sean White on building humanistic empathetic AI that goes beyond intelligence. If you're curious about how technology, when used used effectively can shape the future of humanity, then subscribe to possible today, wherever you get your podcasts. I sort of did a deep dive about three, four years ago into the new right.

And they were having a much more interesting conversation than Democrats were having because they were talking about issues like meaning and purpose. Right? Like the most important things to human beings. What is their purpose when they wake up in the morning? How do they derive meaning? Where does actual contentment and happiness come from? Democrats were not.

We just assumed that if you had a job and you had a decent wage, that you were happy and content. And that's not actually how it works. People want to feel like they have power and control over their lives and Republicans were more often than not delivering them arguments that actually spoke to that powerlessness that people felt. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Max Fisher. And you just heard from today's guest Senator Chris Murphy. Senator Murphy's a regular on Pod Save America and we don't have

too many elected officials on offline, but he's been outspoken on two topics we talk a lot about here. The growing and worrying influence of tech on our politics and the growing and worrying influence of tech on our relationships. He's a very thoughtful guy. Yes. For a Senator I have to offline of line, so I'm excited to hear what he has to say. And that's not a backhanded compliment, it's just a compliment. No, I mean, usually, you know, they kind of... Oh, believe me.

Oh, believe me, I know, I know. You don't have to convince me. I mean, no disrespect to the Senate. No. An august body. So when he reached out to say he wanted to talk about tech billionaires cozying up to Trump and controlling the flow of information,

I thought it would be a great conversation, and it was. We talked about Elon, Trump, Zuckerberg, all the other rich nerds reshaping our politics. What Democrats plan to do about it and why he wants to work with Republicans to address another problem made worse by social media and the internet, loneliness. We love loneliness here.

We love talking about it. We don't love loneliness. We're going to solve it with a Senator who's going to come hang out with you. And then I'm going to feel... That's right. We're going to solve it with a senator who's going to come hang out with you. And then I'm going to feel... That's right. You're going to feel better. But before we get to that, this week a Chinese artificial intelligence company named DeepSeek sent shockwaves through Silicon Valley and Wall Street when it released a new AI model that rivals OpenAI's chat GPT.

What makes DeepSeek so alarming or exciting, depending on who you talk to, is the company's claim that its model was built with fewer advanced computer chips than other AI models at a fraction of the cost, allegedly $6 million. Which is tiny. Which is change, just pocket change for some of these AI guys. For most of them. The announcement led to a major tech stock sell-off on Monday, including a $600 billion loss for US chipmaker Nvidia, which is the biggest one-day market loss in US history. At the moment, DeepSeek is the number one most downloaded app on the Apple App Store. So first red note, now deep seek Mag is favorite techno utopian Mark Andreessen called this AI Sputnik moment Are we back to being afraid of Chinese technology now or do we do we still trust our tech overlords in Beijing?

What's going on Max? I know you you mentioned the the nerd tech billionaire overlords before they got a new one, Xi Jinping is up there. So we should talk a little bit about what makes this deep-seek moment such a big deal because I normally hate to take AI models seriously in any way, shape or form. I think the entire business is kind of ridiculous. But this was like, even if you never plan to use AI in your life, this was a very big deal for the economy, for the geopolitics. So I can wrap through what makes this AI such a significant moment in our world.

So AIs cost tens or hundreds of billions of dollars to make. There's a trillion dollar infrastructure economy around making them. There's these servers, really expensive chips, there's all the energy. There's all the construction. Like Trump just did remember this $500 billion project Stargate thing. So they're crazy, crazy numbers. That was more around the infrastructure. That was just the physical, the things you need to build in order to make the AIs. And DeepSeq does the same thing as those existing AIs without any of the AI infrastructure. The trillion dollar AI economy,

it turns out we actually don't need it to make a similar quality AI. And it is verifiable, it's open source, people are going through, they're checking how it works. Which is basically the way that DeepSeek did this, is because they built it on open source. That's right, yeah. That's right, yeah.

So, and it's not the best AI, but it's like ranked third by a lot of these benchmarks. So it's real, it's legit. And this means that if that entire AI economy that is a trillion dollars is like unnecessary, you turn out not to need it. You turn out not to need the chips, the energy, the infrastructure.

And you also learn that the AIs that investors have poured tens or hundreds of billions of dollars into making, it turns out that the AIs that investors have poured tens or hundreds of billions of dollars into making it turns out that's not what that product costs we just as a global economy wildly overpaid for it that's bad news if you have a 401k that's why we saw a trillion dollar sell-off in the stock market that's why there's some concerns that there could lead to a deeper sell-off in these tech stocks there's also the geopolitics of it which is yeah I mean we we put the United States put export

controls on these chips. Right. Remember the chips act that we always, we always like to make jokes about, but this whole thing was like the chips are going to be, these chips are going to be so valuable in the future for artificial intelligence, for a lot of other technology, and we want that, we want these to be made here in the United States. And so we want to, you know, and we also want to put limits on how many chips Nvidia can sell to China or other countries.

And it seems like what happened is DeepSeek, because they couldn't get as many chips as they wanted, they decided they needed a workaround. And then their workaround was only six million dollars. Right, was reinventing the entire technology to do it like wildly, wildly on the cheap. It would be like if you figured out how to make a car for a hundred dollars. That would be bad news for Detroit and for the car market.

I think it's a little too early to say whether this is good or bad for the geopolitics of it because part of the premise of that ban was that AI technology or these chips could have some sort of military national security applications. We still don't even know if that will ever be the case. And if it is the case, we don't know if the DeepSeq model of doing this without the chips will

be able to circumvent that. Ultimately, I think what this means for consumers is that there's going to be a lot more AI in our world, even as this is bad for the industry because it turns out that this technology is so cheap to make and it's so cheap to license. There was someone who figured out you can build a machine to locally host DeepSeek to have the entire program on your computer for $6,000. If you want to do that with one of the OpenAI AIs, you're looking at like maybe millions of dollars to build the infrastructure for it.

So for better or worse, we are going to have more AIs. And for better or worse, we're learning that just China is going to be a part of this technology, whether we want them to be or not. part of this technology, whether we want them to be or not. It also seems like, as you mentioned, one of the big concerns about AI is the cost of just all the energy. And it seems like the deep seek hints that maybe we don't need that much energy after all. This is great news if you care about the environmental impact of AI.

Now it may be that the big income... Not as good news if you want your AI to tell you what happened in Tiananmen Square. That's right. Because again they are... The DeepSeq will not do that. Yeah. I am a little bit less worried about the censorship of it just because the... Yes, if you ask DeepSeq what's going on in Xinjiang province in China, they'll say like nothing, everything is great. What are you talking about? But there'll be plenty of other AI models. You can ask Chet GPT and find out.

That's right, yeah, and you can locally host these. But yeah, this is, I think, legitimately great news for energy, or energy use. And in fact, the biggest stock dips on Monday weren't chip maker companies, they were energy companies. It was like the people who make gas turbines. So that's good development. I will say, as of right before this recording we're

recording on Wednesday. Nvidia has not recovered. No. The tech stocks in general have but like the NASDAQ has recovered somewhat but Nvidia not so much. Yeah and that one of the biggest stocks in the world because there was this assumption that everybody was gonna need to buy thousands or millions of these chips that are very expensive and now it turns out that we don gonna need to buy thousands or millions of these chips that are very expensive. And now it turns out that we don't need them. Sam Altman, uh, originally said in response to this that it was in current. It was impressive. Now I saw that he's saying, um, there may have been like intellectual property theft. Oh, is he? Yeah

Trump said that it's kind of it might be exciting or good news for everyone. Trump seemed positive on it, vaguely positive. They don't have IP law in China, so good luck to Sam. I really wish you the best in pursuing that one. What do you think this means for some of the, like, the broader implications of how humans relate to artificial intelligence that now it may be not necessarily... It's gonna be more of them. Yeah, now there's just gonna be more of them and it's going to be... humans relate to artificial intelligence, that now it may be not necessarily, yeah, now there's just going to be more of them and it's going to be, like, it seemed originally

like this was going to be a, you know, Sputnik was mentioned by Andreessen, this was going to be like a race to see which country could get the smartest AI to take over the world. But the open source part of this, part of this development now makes me think it's more of a global race for this. But like it's sort of everyone's going to benefit from everyone from other countries doing research. That's a good point that we have been really focused on what this means for the makers of AI. But I think the more significant thing is maybe what it means for the clients of AI, where if you're a company in India or you're a small company, whatever kind, you don't have to have a bajillion dollar contract with OpenAI to use their AI

that's trained on a billion servers that fill up half of Arizona, you can get something really cheaply. I think we don't yet know the implications of that because we don't know a lot of the use cases for this technology. Right. And I do wonder, it started making me think of the implications of AI becoming like a commodity. Right.

You know, like if it becomes really cheap and anyone can use it and then it becomes smarter, like, that also seems like not a direction. You were the deep sea, the Chinese AIs are going to take over. Oh, well, if we just keep improving, you know know, like it's... Right, right, right. I will say that I'm using ChatGPT more. Are you really? Yeah. Not for like, I need to draft something.

I hear from a lot of people, I played with it and I found some use cases. My use cases, it is replacing Google for me. That's interesting. Because Google is just garbage. What are you searching? Just like if I... That's true. I was in the car today and, you know and someone texted me and it read the text,

it interrupted the podcast, read the text, and I was like, where did that setting change? And I'm like, how do I figure it on the iPhone? And I just, I was like, I was parked, and I just was like, hey, what happens when they read the text on my iPhone? And it was just like immediately, boom. Just a quick explanation.

So much better, and I just to see, what would Google do? And Google's like, five different links. And you're like, is this one? This was a Reddit thread here, the other thing. So I think it is helpful for search engine-like things. At least that's what I found. I also know, I don't want to name him,

because I don't want to blow up his spot. There's a YouTuber who you and I both know who uses AI a lot for like little workflow stuff. And it will be like, he has a staff illustrator. And it will will be like he doesn't know how to convey the idea of an illustration to the illustrator so he'll mock something up with an AI that is not good enough to put on the YouTube channel but as a great way for him to communicate with his illustrator and there he has like ten different uses for it he uses it to summarize transcripts and it's like it's a little scary to see how much he's living

inside of the machine, but it is also, there are use cases for it. I think it's totally true. I also asked in the middle of the night last night, help, why is my four-year-old waking up all the time, all of the sudden? Does JetGPT know? Yeah, they had a lot of ideas.

Really? Was any of it helpful? Yeah, it's just like separation anxiety when they get to this age, and here a lot of ideas. Really? Was any of it helpful? Yeah, it's just like, you know, it's like separation anxiety when they get to this age and here's some helpful tips. It wasn't anything like groundbreaking. But like I said, it's a Google, it could be a good Google replacement. I mean, we talk a lot about how we, for thousands of years, lived in a world where the big problem was getting information, was understanding what's going on with my body?

Why am I having this medical experience? How does the world work? Now we have way too much information, and the big challenge is figuring out how to sort through it, parse it, understand it in the aggregate. I spend a ton of my time trying to do that, and it's a ton of work. And if AI can reliably,

which is obviously the big question, can reliably help us to make sense of the data information overload? I don't mind the idea of something that is a filter between me and the fire hose of information that's on the internet, as long as it's an effective filter. Yeah, I mean, two developments, because I hadn't checked in on Chai GB Team quite some time that I think are helpful is, one, now it's up to date, you know, sort of say as

of January 2025, so that's helpful. And then also it gives you the sources. Like, and there's just, so there's little icons of like where they got all the information from. So you can like double check if you need to. Right. Okay. So what do we think now?

We got the Chinese, they got their spyware app that the kids all like. I'm just kidding. So. I'm not gonna do it. You can't do it. I'm not gonna do it. You can't do it. I'm not gonna do it.

No, I get it, I understand. Given TikTok and now DeepSeek, is China just set to dominate the internet in the future? And plus the big rush towards. Red note, it does feel like all of a sudden, China is everywhere. And I think that we are gonna see a lot of concern this week and the coming weeks of like,

is it China's internet now? And I think that's overstated. China's share of internet technology is still actually smaller than you would think it would be given that they have a GDP about two thirds of ours and they actually have more computer science PhDs than we do. It's still a totally American dominated, US dominated market. But I think that we are going to look back at this moment that Chinese internet technology with all of its quirks, all the things that make it different, entered our lives and just never left. And I actually don't know that that is totally a bad thing. I mean, there are some things about the way the Chinese and networks that I don't love, such as the thought control and totalitarian speech policing. But there's a lot about the Chinese internet that is really cool. Like, I don't know if you've ever used, like, WeChat-style super apps.

They haven't. It's really cool. It's like takes everything that you would ever want to do on the Internet and then synthesizes it all together into one app where if you're like... Oh, yeah. Trying to find a restaurant. Wasn't Elon trying to do that with X?

He is constantly... That was the original vision? Yes, American tech companies are constantly trying to do WeChat and for complicated reasons, it never works But if you if you see it or if you even just like watch a video of someone using it It makes our internet feel like the fucking Bronze Age really yes It is they are really it's really cool part of it is because it's built around e-commerce whereas ours is just built around

Advertising which is why our internet is always looking shittier, and there's is always looking nicer But it's just to say that like American tech has gotten stagnant. Like we've talked about this many times. When is the last time that American tech, which is now dominated by like Detroit Big Three style quasi-monopoly of a few companies, delivered a product that we actually liked? Meta's like, here's the metaverse, it sucks.

Here's some goggles that suck. Every time now Apple has like a big announcement, it's not, remember Apple used to have big announcements. I know. It's going to be some cool new product. Every year is here. And I was just like, eh. I know. The last cool thing.

It's like, oh, we have another, we have a next generation camera on the iPhone that like no one can tell the fucking difference. I know. And the thing is they don't have to deliver better products now because this is what happens when a monopoly gets entrenched. And like, I really feel like we're at the equivalent of moment of it's like, it feels like being in the 80s and watching the arrival of the first Japanese cars, the arrival of the first Toyota like coming off of the boat. And the thing to remember is that people absolutely flipped their shit when that happened, like Japan was going to take over.

There was a bestselling book called Becoming War with Japan because everyone just assumed that like, well, if they're coming for our cars first, then they're going to take everything else next. Like you need to see their movies. Like if you watch Die Hard, there's all of this anxiety about like Japanese companies. And I think ultimately like it was a good thing in a lot of ways. Japan made a lot of cars that Detroit would never make, could never make.

And like they cut into that monopoly, which drove down prices, there's a lot of innovation. And like we are in, I think a similar point where we have a Silicon Valley big three, or they sometimes they call them the Magnificent Seven. And we kind of need this competition, I think. Spoken like a true globalist. Do you know that this is, we're in the America First era?

I know, I guess. Do you understand that? I guess, you know what, I actually have some skepticism about the America First agenda, I have to tell you. Weirdly, so does- So far, so good. So does Donald Trump. Did you see Trump's response to this?

Yeah. I was so curious how he was going to respond because it was terrible for the stock market, which he's very sensitive to. And also his big buddies in tech, his oligarch bros were hit so hard by this. Yeah, but you know what? He likes them being taken down. He doesn't want them to. I think that's what it was. Yes. Yes. He said, let me read the quote. I view that as a positive, as an asset because you won't be spending as much and you'll get the same result. So yes, it's like that handshake that he does

with other heads of state where he pulls him close and then kind of- This is why he, I think, I mean, it's part of what made him reverse on TikTok, right? Yes. The kids like it, people like it. I want to make sure everyone has their video up because I don't want people getting angry at me.

And also if you think that if you want me to be tough on China can be tough on China and say that I have a good relationship with she because he's scared of me and you know and I'm a great negotiator which is why he respects me right so I do the script in your sleep now I know it's very it's very predictable I one more thing I will say on this is that if we are in another Toyota moment if we are in another Toyota moment, if we are in another moment of the first Japanese automakers showing up for the first time,

I would say like play that tape forward and look 30 years from now when the crypto financial crisis of 2058. You know it's coming. Decimates our stagnant bloated tech sector in the same way the 2008 crisis decimated Detroit. You know there's gonna be a lot of debate when President Malia Obama says that she's bailing out the big three of Silicon Valley because we have to save our tech workers, the once storied Silicon Valley needs cultural preservation, but me personally I gotta be honest my heart is gonna be

with Senator Tag Romney and saying, maybe let them fail, but we'll hash it out. We'll hash it out when that happens. Yeah, she's gonna get a stiff challenge from Barron Trump. Okay, he's gonna. Just as soon as we hear him talk. Just as soon as we hear him talk, it's gonna be really tough.

First words are gonna be, I'm running. Yeah, you know what, maybe I'll give my data to Xi Jinping after all. I'll send him everything he wants. So look, we've had this debate so many times. It's like, don't give your data to the Chinese tech companies, but Silicon Valley takes your data, just as bad. The solution of this is have data privacy laws.

Yeah. Federal data privacy laws, which weirdly, even though we've been calling for on the show for years, Congress has not yet passed. Well, yeah, they're getting to it. It's on the agenda. Offline is brought to you by Lumen. Did you know 80% of resolutions fail by February?

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more. Lumen gives you recommendations to improve your metabolic health. Take the next step to improving your health. Go to lumen.me slash offline to get 20% off your lumen. That's L-U-M-E-N dot M-E slash offline for 20% off your purchase. Thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode. Okay, a few more quick updates on America's favorite techno-authoritarians. On Monday, Elon Musk made a surprise virtual appearance at a campaign event for the German far-right political party Alternative for Germany, better known as AFD, and he told the crowd, in an apparent nod to Nazi Germany, that the nation places too much focus on quote past guilt but you have to really hear it to believe it let's listen I'm very

excited for the IFD and I think I think you are really the the best hope for Germany it's good to be proud of German culture values, and not to lose that in some sort of multiculturalism that dilutes everything. I think there's frankly too much of a focus on past guilt and we need to move beyond that. Children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents or even let alone their parents, their great-grandparents, maybe even. I mean, when his tapping into German nationalist spirit and past grievances. That's right. And when has that ever gone wrong?

Maybe it's time to make Germany great again. Something important to know about that clip is that his face was projected onto a giant screen, like that 1984 Apple ad. Yeah. It looked very creepy. And this is not the most important thing, but he's a terrible speaker. He's not a good speaker. Not a good speaker.

He can't get a trainer. Not inspiring, even inspiring for a far right fan, whatever we want to call this party. Look, some of those AFD guys, they are good public speakers. If there's anything the German far right has a proven capability with, it's a rousing speech. And you know what? He can't- They're following in that tradition, but Elon Musk can't fucking hang. So I gotta say, the is it a Nazi salute or not debate about Elon Musk?

I know. The reason I was not so into that is not because I thought, I don't know. I don't know what it was. Certainly didn't look... I don't know why you would make... He's a smart guy. I don't know why you'd do that. But it's like... It's a debate... I think Sarah Longwell said this on one of the Bulwark pods.

She's like, it's like that dress. Remember the... Is it an orange? It's like everyone can fight about whether it is or not, but like, no one's gonna win that fight, and it an orange? It's like everyone can fight about whether it is or not, but like, no one's going to win that fight and it's not going to lead to anything. This to me is a little different in that he is, we now have someone who is like the president of the United States' closest advisor,

the richest man in the world, who also controls maybe one of the biggest media platforms in the world, certainly the most influential among politicians and media. And now he's giving a speech to the far, far right German political party and telling them, don't worry about past guilt, Germany. So the context for this that makes it, I think, even worse than it will look to an American, because you might be looking at this and you might be saying, like, well, maybe Germany does have too much national guilt,

and maybe it is okay for them to feel good about being German sometimes because Germany makes nice cars, too. And if your great-grandfather was a Nazi, like, that is... You're not at fault for that. The thing to understand is that within the context of Germany and German politics and the AFD especially, this is a very familiar, like I'm not even going to call it a dog whistle, just like this is a set of phrases that has a very specific and clear meaning. The reason that they use coded language is Germany has very strong Holocaust denial laws. There are a lot of

things that legally you cannot say, And this is the statement that. So they hate free speech is what you're saying. Free speech. Um, the German far right developed years ago, like this set of talking points that it's basically the equivalent of, you know, the 14 words, the like, we must preserve a future for the white race or for white children or something. This is the equivalent of that where everybody in Germany knows exactly what this means, which what it means is the equivalent of that, where everybody in Germany knows exactly what this means,

which what it means is the Nazis, maybe they made some mistakes, but everyone puts too much blame on them and they're not as bad as everybody says, and maybe we have some lessons to learn from them. So I really want people to understand. And this is actually, in case you think this is just my like lib American interpretation,

this specific set of phrases used to be a thing that would get you kicked out of the German far right because it was considered too extreme. I covered an AFD rally years ago. A guy said this, it became huge international news and he got not formally kicked out of the party, but like basically exiled from the leadership for years. Wow.

Yeah, so Elon Musk is too far right for the German far right. That is fucking terrifying. He's not a good guy. He's not a good guy. Yeah, I know. And he's getting worse. And he's getting more influential too. And I do think that since Trump has come to power again too,

it really has unleashed like just some of the worst of the fucking worst. I was on X last night because I was trying to figure out what's going on with the government freeze that was frozen and then it wasn't frozen and then what was frozen and then the right was like it's all exaggeration and nothing happened and then other people are like no, no, I couldn't get the Medicaid portal open. I mean, it was something I'm trying to look at. And I see fucking Ann Coulter retweets this guy. Have you been following her for a long time?

She's like, good follow. She's a great follow, good stuff. She retweets some guy who, he was like a Hillsdale college kind of guy, it's like far right college. And he has a picture up of the judge who put a pause on the OMB order. And she is a Muslim American and Fourth Circuit.

And he said, this unelected Muslim American immigrant is now telling the president what he can and can't do. And then he responds to his own tweet and says, you know, I've been saying this for a while, but the real danger is not illegal immigration, it's legal immigration. Deport them all. Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

And this is like a guy who, he's like a real, like 70,000 followers, like Ann Coulter's retweeting, all these other people following him who are like part of the MAGA. I hadn't really gone deep on the, like who was arguing about the H-1B visas, that whole fight, I think we mentioned.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some of the, like, the just overt xenophobia and racism that came out during that was just like, I think it was a surprise for even some of the MAGA supporters. Absolutely, people inside the tent, yeah. They're like, oh, we were telling people we're not really racist,

that we just don't like illegal immigration, but wow, we got some people in here in the tent who are, in fact, pretty've got some people in here in the tent who are in fact pretty racist. No, the explicit stated position of the like pro-MAGA side of that debate was deport everybody who is of Indian origin. You came here in the last three generations. Yeah, I think that there is, have been a lot more movement in the Overton window

than certainly I appreciated very quickly. And I think contrasting this moment in my mind with 2017, because obviously coming into it, I've been thinking a lot about like, okay, what did we learn? What worked? What worked for me like individually? And there's been a lot of, we've all noticed the fact that there is not the same collective national, like we're not doing this taking a stand freak out that there was last time, right? There wasn't a big march on the mall. People aren't going to the airports. There's a little bit more of a feeling of like, here we go again, resignation, I guess we'll get

through it. And then on top of that, you also have, and I think that's really important, remember this, eight years ago, every major cultural or business luminary in the country was taking a very strong stand that says we are here to resist Trump Trump is bad He's not what we stand for they were putting out statements and now the biggest companies in America are up there at the fucking dais Yeah at the inauguration and I think that you know what they weren't that helpful last time around so you can fucking have them I look it's it's absolutely it's true, but I think that all of them. I think what we are learning It's right. They were not helpful in any of the, I think what we are learning, it's right, they were not helpful in any material way.

I think what we're learning is that, you know, two months ago I would have told you, okay, all that flailing we did, maybe we overdid it a little bit and we just made ourselves miserable and stressed. And I think what we're learning is that actually all of those social signals we were sending to each other and that so many like elites in the country

were sending down, were saying that like, this guy is outside the Overton window the stuff that he says he wants to do on day one is extreme and unacceptable and some of it's gonna happen but we're gonna scream about it every step in the way and I think that what we've learned is that when we kind of throw up our hands and say like okay well we're gonna try to survive and get through it what happens is that Overton window just gets pushed 10 more degrees. Well, the thing I've been worried about for a while and was worried about throughout this last campaign is like, by the end of this Trump term, it's very possible that Trump

could look like the moderate establishment figure in the MAGA movement because the people that are going to be staffing the government, they're going to have a lot of power, they're going to make a lot of decisions. Like they've thought about this stuff a lot. Trump is a host and an entertainer, and he's like an old time, he's got like sort of 80s style racism from New York, like that kind of shit.

And he hasn't thought a lot about all of this shit. I mean, there was some piece about Stephen Miller in the New York Times where they said that Trump makes a joke with Miller once in a while, and he's like, oh, this guy, this guy, he's like, he wants everyone in the country to look like him. He's pretty, he's even crazier than me. I know, right, he makes fun of it. And that's Stephen Miller, right? And then you've got like, the guy I was just mentioning, like, these are the people that are coming into the government,

and it's actually very frightening. And he is surrounded by so many people, the project 2025, America first project, who see Trump for what he is very cynically. And I think see him as a vehicle partly because he's got a lot of these crazy impulses and instincts and he'll say anything. And I think partly because they also know that he's like Kind of lazy He's not that with it in a lot of ways and can be manipulated and they came in

Clearly with a lot of plans that they are executing on and I think that they have I'm not I'm not trying to freak people out It's there's not worth losing sleep over things that happened yet But they clearly are planning to do more than this. So you do wonder, you know, do we need a little bit more of 2017 and a little bit more of like doing resistance cringe? Yeah. Yeah. Resistance cringe. That's what we need. I've worked. Orange man bad. I think in retrospect, I think it was really effective.

No, I know. Well, it is. The thing the thing I always wrestle with is how to balance the like, you never want to be the movement that cried wolf. Right. And so it is what everybody says. Well, and that's why it's hard. You don't want to like take every outrage to an 11, right? Every day. But it turns out that compared to the first term, right, we're already, you know, weekend and it's I know. And I think there is some of the, like, the Democrats cried wolf last time. I think some of that is because a lot of the, like, quote-unquote resistance was pretty effective. Yes. And a lot of that was because some extremely close calls with, like, John McCain just happened

to hate Trump more than he hated liberal policies. Or, you know, people that we did not like very much and didn't agree with who were within the Trump administration. Right. Who were pushing back and stopped him from doing his last. I know. I think that is the big set of breaks that we are really going to come to appreciate now that they're not here.

Yeah. Anyway, not to get off course here. Sorry. Sorry. We do have a... Anyway, red note. A smaller item here, which is in other Dear Leader news, Google announced this week that they would comply with President Trump's executive order, renaming the Gulf

of Mexico the Gulf of America. In a tweet, the tech giant announced that as part of a quote, long standing practice of applying name changes when they have been updated in official government sources, the name of the Gulf would be changed on Google Maps. Other platforms and outlets like the Associated Press have said that they will continue to call it the Gulf would be changed on Google Maps. Other platforms and outlets, like the Associated Press, have said that they will continue to call it the Gulf of Mexico. What's going on with Google? Is this what happens when you get a front row seat to the inauguration? So this is, for better or worse, standard Google Maps practice

when they're dealing with authoritarian governments. It's not standard practice when they're dealing with democratic governments. So like if you open Google Maps Maps like in China or in India, which I guess is not fully authoritarian but like has some tech authoritarianism, like you will see things that reflect the government's official position on different places. But oh, for sure, this is absolutely all part of the like giant quid pro quo between tech and Trump. And like, I guess we're just going to find out what Google got in exchange for this. Like maybe we're going to get Waymo 747s. I will say there's been some polling

on how people feel about Trump's executive orders. And one of the least popular is renaming Gulf of Mexico. Is it really? I didn't see that. I bet people are probably just like, yeah, that's fucking stupid. Yeah. And we're used to it.

It's called the Gulf of Mexico. This is what we learned in school. It's a thing that has always been and felt normal. So I guess the idea that it's like some grievances. Did you see also in our oligarchy, tech oligarchy, quid quo pro quo watch, chat GPT now is on all federal work machines. Yeah. Open AI got a giant federal contract. Chat GPT now is on all federal work machines. Oh yeah.

OpenAI got a giant federal contract. For now, until that next call with Xi Jinping and I got tipsy. I know that could take, you know what? Maybe it is better. Maybe it is. Maybe that is okay. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Table, great title, which featured the quote, young, confident, and cruel MAGA influencers who helped elect Donald Trump president. Features writer Brock Collier attended a series of inauguration parties for young Trumpers in DC and spoke to them about what drew them to the MAGA movement and how they're thinking about the next four years in power. And a lot of these people basically told Brock that they joined quote, the movement so they could feel free to make offensive jokes again. That was a big, that's it. Yeah, a big draw. Here's a key part of the piece though that I'd love to get your reaction to. Mm-hmm

Quote, conservatism is a cultural force Not just a political condition is back in a real way for the first time since the 1980s But here in DC one can also witness the emerging influence of a newer type of conservative They are not disenfranchised or working- class or anti-elite or many of the other adjectives used to describe Trump supporters since 2016. Rather, they are young, imposingly well-connected, urban, and very online. What do you think? Does this younger MAGA set have more staying power now that it's become

cultural instead of just political? So look, every time there is a new Republican administration that comes into office going back at least to Reagan, we get a piece like this. A big magazine sends a reporter to cover an inauguration party for 20-somethings and the reporter always comes out and is like, whoa guys, there's a new breed of young conservatives

taking Washington by storm. They're fratty, they wear pearls, they're rude, they went to college, and they're going to take over the GOP. It's a new GOP now, and they're making conservatism cool. And it's like, every time, these are just college young Republicans. That's who it is.

It's 1 a thousand people. It's the same thousand people who's been here since the 80s. They feel weird and different because it's not representative of the broader coalition. At the end of Inauguration, they're all fucking going back to St. Louis to work at their dad's dentistry or car dealership. These are not Senate staffers. They're not Supreme Court clerks. These people are not. I just, they've, I don't know.

Just think like eight years ago when Milo Yiannopoulos was like, he's the new GOP. Now where is he? Well, yes, but now we just had an election where Gen Z, uh, went more Republican than any 18 to 25 Cohort over the last however many years or decades at this point, right? So there's a lot of mother I don't think that necessarily all the people who voted for Trump in that cohort are like the people in this piece, right?

Who seem like just like like you said frat and sorority right like well off There's there's a scene in the piece when they go to get IV drips at a $4 million townhouse in Arlington, and it's like, okay, I know, I went to college with these people too. It is funny, Elijah at Crooked, he tweeted the story, and he said, I like this discourse because it's a bunch of nerds treating typical frat bros

like a new phenomenon. Yes, that's right. Max and Elijah aligned once again. once again, me and my guy. I do think there's something about the MAGA becoming a cultural, like the cultural vibe shift versus just the political vibe shift. That's true. Yeah. And I think part of the cultural vibe shift is a lot of people who are

Republican leaning, who know that a lot of what the MAGA movement stands for and what a lot of what Trump is going to do or has done is bad. And they don't like it, but they like parts of it. Either they want to make offensive jokes or they just want tax cuts and send limited government, right? Whatever it is. And the cultural transformation has given them cover to be like, you know, it's fine now. We're going to all forget about January 6th and the Stolen Election and some

of the worst races and stuff like that. We're just going to use, you know, the R word and we're going to use this and we're going to use that. So it does feel like it's a cover for this. I do. I agree with that. I think that the focus on like, I'm not allowed to say the things that I wanna say now with Trump, I'm allowed, I think is a really big point of overlap between the people in this piece.

So I think our non-representative set and the much larger number of Zoomers who turned culturally MAGA, who voted for Trump for a different set of, I think what are largely different set of reasons. Reading this was so funny because they all keep, like they truly, you're not exaggerating. Every single person this reporter talks to, why do you support Trump? I want to say the R word and I feel like I'm not allowed to. And there was this kind of mystery I was like struggling with as I was reading the piece because everyone says, I'm not,

you're not allowed to say offensive things when you're hanging out with your friends. You're not allowed to say the R word. And it's like, what are you talking about? What do you, Biden isn't installing the North Korean like microphones in your home to say if you're making jokes or not. Like you go to any fucking dive bar. Just say it.

Just go say it and see what happens to you. That's what I'm saying. It's just like, you know what? It is a, these are social norms that are enforced. If you want to say any offensive word or make any offensive joke, go out in public and do it. Put it online. Government's not going to come after you.

Maybe people might decide that they don't want to be your friend or maybe they might say that's not nice or that's hurtful. You know? But like, yeah, go for it. Maybe they might say, that's not nice or that's hurtful. Right. But it's not illegal. But like, yeah, go for it. Well, I think you kind of hit on what is happening here. Because I think people are saying these things. Like if you go to, not that I spent a lot of time hanging out with like, hanging out

at 20 something dive bars or college bars, but if you go to them, these conversations are happening that all these people in this profile swear are not happening. And that's when I was like, oh, I understand what's happening here. These people aren't socializing in bars. They're not socializing, they're on their phone. And it like, yeah, the phone is the like, yelling at each other for what you say, speech policing, like whatever bullshit.

Like that's, the social norms there are terrible. Like of course you're unhappy there. Touch grass. Fucking touch grass. Well, it did, it did make me think, you know, we spend all this time theorizing and trying to analyze like this mega coalition. Now it's got, you've got like the techno, you know, the Elon folks and the techno utopians and the Christian conservatives are like, what is connecting

all these people is like, you know what? It's really only giving a shit about yourself and deciding that like, you get to do whatever you want to do and you get to have whatever you want to have. And that other people really don't matter that much and their feelings don't matter that much, but also like their basic standards of living don't matter that much and the truth telling them the truth doesn't matter that much. And it's just like, it's this very anti, it's at its core anti-social behavior, which is ironic,

because it's like a piece about everyone partying together. But it is very much like, I'm going, what's good for me, what's good for me is good enough. Right, it's permission to- And all the rest of you can go fuck yourselves. Yes, it's permission to, and I think you can connect this to so many moments in the last year, like even just something

that I think about a lot is that when Trump started tapping all of these people for the cabinet who were all accused sexual assaulters or documented sexual assaulters and it's like what's going on here or like even even before he was taking people to the cat like the people around him there were all of these allegations and I think that part of the reason that the coalition was okay with or even encouraging of that is it they read it as Permission to you know what you're allowed to treat people however you want These are people who are treat other people like shit you vote for us you get to do that, too And I think you're right. I think it's telling people you get to be selfish you get to live without the social contract now

Where does that desire come from? I'm sure it's complicated. I do think that a lot of it is that we have, and I know we talk about this all the time, but I think there's a reason it comes up all the time, we don't have social networks anymore. Yes, no, that's exactly. We don't have in-person socializing anymore. We're not connecting with,

you know, this is like what Derek had talked about, you don't have your village anymore, there's a set of people around you. When you have that, you feel viscerally the sense of the importance and value of having social norms that we all collectively work to uphold. It's when you're isolated that it makes a lot more sense that you would say, fuck everyone else, and it's actually good to be cruel to other people because it proves I'm going to take whatever I want for myself.

Yes, that is exactly right. And I do think it's a lesson for the opposition to that movement, right? Because there's a lot of things you can pick at and fight at that movement. But if we're going to be a real opposition that gives people a choice, then we also have to like live the opposite values, which is taking care of each other, showing each other some grace, some kindness,

being in, seeing each other, being in other some grace, some kindness, being in, seeing each other, being in community with other people, not just being online on our phones. Like I do think part of this, the social alienation and the being on the phone is it, it sort of robs us of the experiences that make you able to live in a community and to like be in a collective government. Yes. That's interesting. The idea of progressivism as a cultural force for community first, which I think it makes a lot of sense where that would naturally lead people to progressive values. Yeah. Yeah. So we come back to my solution. Senator Chris Murphy is going to hang out with

everyone in America. I mean, what a perfect segue. All right. Before we get to Senator Murphy, just two quick housekeeping notes. The first is the fires in Los Angeles have been devastating and as proud residents of Los Angeles ourselves, we want to do everything we can to help those affected and support the organizations rallying around our neighbors in need in the months ahead. We just launched Friend of Los Angeles March in the Crooked Store with 100% of the proceeds

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But you know what? Dan's message box is essential. Everyone should read it. I'm a subscriber. It's really sharp. It's quick. It really helps me cut through the noise. I always agree with him, which is the most important metric.

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You can sign up now for a 30-day free trial of Messagebox at crooked.com slash, and Dan loves this part, yes we Dan. That's funny. Crooked.com slash yes we Dan. When are we going to put on crooked.com slash Max and Easter? It's going to be on that landing page. We're going to have some merch for you. I'm ready.

I'll start doodling on some t-shirts. Please send us ideas for Max merch. Thank you. After the break, my conversation with Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy. Offline is brought to you by Zebiotics Pre-Alcohol. Let me tell you, if there's a sure-fire way to wake up feeling fresh after a night of drinking,

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You know, just the other night I was out with my friend Pete. He just had a big promotion. Mmm. And I was like, dude, you gotta try this stuff. You can't be your usual self at work tomorrow. It's your first day. It's a big job. It's your first day. You wanna show up a little bit fresher, my man.

And he said, uh, That's what he said. You got it. I have yet to find a single person who I've recommended ZBiotics to who has told me, you know what? It didn't work. You were wrong The single person couldn't find one and I and I basically recommended to every single person that I talked to that when I'm

Using it too, and it's everyone loves it. It works converts all around so try it out Go to z biotics dot-com slash offline to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use offline at checkout Zbiotics is backed with a hundred percent money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason they'll refund your money No questions asked Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash offline and use the code offline at checkout for 15% off Senator Chris Murphy, welcome to Offline. Yeah, thanks for having me. I want to have a bigger picture conversation about what big tech and the internet are doing

to our politics, society, our well-being. But first, I got to hear your thoughts on the opening weeks of Trump 2.0. To me, you seem genuinely more alarmed by what this Trump administration has already done than even most of your Democratic colleagues. How are you thinking about what to react to, what to say, and how to fight back? So I think if we were sincere during the campaign that Donald Trump posed an existential threat to democracy, that he was going to essentially steal from all of us to enrich his billionaire friends, then when he starts doing it, we can't be quiet because then we compromise our legitimacy writ large as a party and a movement.

There's this popular meme in democratic politics today that the resistance didn't work and that we have to reserve our capital and that ultimately there'll be this perfect moment when everyone will emerge from the tunnels and start the fight. I just don't believe that that's how political power works. I think it's really hard to get people up off the mat if you aren't telling them what's happening, which is in front of our eyes, the destruction of our democracy and the handover of power to the billionaires So i'm kind of upset that there hasn't been More urgency expressed by democrats. I

Don't think we have much credibility if we're complaining Out in public and we're voting for all of his nominees and we're helping them pass legislation on the inside And I think the moment where all is lost is much sooner than people think. There is a moment where the legitimization of political violence, the threatened prosecution of Democrats and the tilt of the information platforms towards the right becomes so dangerous that there is no return. So to me the fight is right now and I get it people are licking their wounds. It's hard to get people up off the mat but I don't know that we'll be able to turn this back on if it stays off for too long.

There's people, you know, taking time to lick their wounds and figure out the right moments. There's also, and I struggle with this too, figuring out how to talk about what they're doing. We're alarming people, but we're not panicking people and we're not taking it to an 11 with every single development that happens. Trump and his regime media, unsururprisingly have a different story they're telling about the actions they're taking. He just wants people in government who are going to carry out the policies and

promises that won him a free and fair election. And maybe you don't like all his pardons, but he's got the authority in the constitution and maybe you don't like him taking a wrecking ball to the federal government, but he gets to fire who he wants and sign executive orders that he wants. And if you don't like him, you can take him to court. That's fine. So what's all this hysteria about the end of democracy? And obviously that story is getting out to a lot of people.

And I wonder how you think about navigating that in this kind of information ecosystem. Yeah. So I understand that. I mean, I get it that people aren't up to fight 24-7 every day. But there is a sort of shock and awe strategy here to numb us early on. And so if you aren't able to create outrage around the wholesale total complete endorsement of the January 6th violence

and if you aren't able to muster real organic outrage at Trump's attempt to sort of burn down a hundred years of budgeting precedent and seize control of appropriations so that he can use money to reward his billionaire friends and punish his political enemies then I just I don't think that we'll be able to get people up out of bed later on. I don't know that it gets much worse than those two things. Once you've done those two things, once you have let people know that if they engage in violence against Democrats, they're clear.

And once you grab control of federal spending so that you can suppress dissent by threatening people with a funding cutoff, I don't know that we have the tools any longer. So to me, those two things that he did have to be the five alarm fire for Democrats. Do you think some of the reticence about speaking up has to do with the fact that some of your colleagues are just personally afraid? Like, do you sense any fear among either your Democratic colleagues or even the Republican colleagues?

That is not a conversation that we have out loud. But I don't know how what has happened in the last week doesn't have an impact. I haven't know how what has happened in the last week doesn't have an impact. I haven't shared this yet, but it is just true. My office has received phone calls and threats that are different than anything we had received prior to the pardoning of the January 6 protesters. We have had to have very different conversations internally about how we protect me, my family, and my staff.

I assume other offices are getting those calls. I assume those calls are reaching other Democratic activists who speak up online all around the country. And whether or not that reaches the level of consciousness, I don't know. But when your family is threatened with harm, of course, it may at the very least subconsciously depress your interest in fighting as hard as you can. And you know, given the fact that Elon Musk can sort of rouse those people with one or two or three tweets, it probably also has to do with why there hasn't been a concentrated effort

to take him on personally, because folks don't want to end up, as I have been and many others, on the receiving end of sort of his social media storms, because what comes with that is an implicit threat of violence. Those threats do not seem to have slowed you down. How are you personally sort of handling that? Well, I just, you know, feel like I have a you down. How are you personally sort of handling that? Well, I just feel like I have a unique responsibility. I'm one of 47 Democratic senators. I'm going to take some precautions to make sure that me and my family and my staff are protected. But if I mute my voice know then all is lost and and yes, I don't completely understand why everybody isn't

Fighting as hard as you know as some of us have been So I feel like my role right now is to model a kind of vigorous organic authentic anger And what is happening to hopefully inspire others to join. You told Greg Sargent last month before Trump took office that you thought the media was already refolding in terms of holding him accountable either out of fear or financial concerns or both. How do you think journalists have been doing now that he's president over the last couple weeks? Badly.

So take the the 24-hour, 12-hour kerfuffle over Colombia as an example, so there was no problem with Colombia They were running three deportation flights a week You know Trump pissed them off by sending a military flight in and they made some noise about You know doing this with commercial flights instead of military flights. There was some threats back and forth, American tariffs against Colombia, Colombia tariffs against America. And in the end, we ended up exactly where we started with three flights a week, with the flights mainly being commercial flights with the deportees treated the exact same

way. But the press, man, they treated it as if this guy was a diplomatic savant. Columbia backs down after Trump threatens with tariffs. Columbia didn't threaten to do anything. Columbia was willing to do three flights a week before Trump was president. They're doing three flights a week right now. But the press, because they're so busy and they're so overwhelmed, often submit to his narratives. So he got a win when in fact, we were weaker at the end of that day than we were at the beginning because now there's a diplomatic rift between the United States and Colombia.

China is jumping in to fill the void and it's likely that we're going to get less cooperation from Colombia on really important issues like combating illegal drug trade. So I do think that the media is pretty constantly or pretty routinely getting duped in this first week and maybe I understand because they can't take the time to sort of get educated on what's actually happening and they just accept his narrative. So I want to talk about the Democratic Party. You spoke about how in the last couple of weeks, you know, Democrats have not been doing as much as they could to speak up and show that sort of raw anger and alarm

that you are. You've also had a broader and I think deeper critique of the party. I want to read something you wrote in The Atlantic. Today, Democrats are non-competitive in half of American states. In largely rural parts of the country, Americans who feel left behind by neoliberal economics want to regain control over their economic destiny.

They worry about social media capturing their children and global commerce wiping out their main streets. They lose sleep over the decreasing power of families and local institutions. The majority of voters who feel this way today support Trump. This is disastrous for the future survival of our democracy But it isn't too late Democrats can build a new lasting political coalition if we become the party that best understands and address this angst You wrote that in October of 2022 Which makes me think that you were not completely surprised by the results of the election. We just had is that right? Completely surprised by the results of the election. We just had is that right? No, I was not completely surprised because

You know we have become the party of the status quo We have become the party of the elites in part because our coalition now depends on higher income voters And so and then during the campaign voters. And so, and then during the campaign, we compounded that phenomenon by making the defense of the existing democracy the temple of the campaign instead of an attack on the billionaire class and the corporate class that is actually infuriating people. And they are ready for a legitimate attack on Consolidated corporate and billionaire power, but they didn't see that from Democrats because we decided to make Democracy the most important thing and listen it was very important to protect democracy But it made it look like we were protecting the existing version of democracy, which is just served over the course of the last

50 years to consolidate power into the hands of the very few. So yes, my argument is that we have to become a much more aggressive, pugilist populist party. We have to name who has power. We have to propose bigger solutions to fix that imbalance than we have in the past. And we need to market those solutions to a broader audience and stop being So perfect in the filter for who we let into the party that yes We should we should be talking to people who might not line up with us on choice and guns and climate if they think that The economy is rigged and of course in the first days of the Trump administration

They are handing us that opportunity because they are so unapologetic about folding in with the billionaire class that that coalition, right, of socially and culturally progressive and more conservative people who believe in honoring the economy, it's there for us to take, but we've got to convince them that we are actually serious about deconstructing elite power. Can you talk about the political journey you've been on that led you to this critique of neoliberalism? It's not what you hear from most Democrats. And I know since you've been talking about it, you've gotten shit from Democrats on the left, from someone the center left, whenever you've sort talking about it, you've gotten shit from Democrats on the left, from someone on the center left.

Whenever you've shared your thoughts about the future of the party, even though I think and I think polling bears this out, they are broadly accepted among the electorate. But the folks who do democratic politics for a living, pay close attention to democratic politics, fund democratic politics, may have different views. So what sort of led you to this critique? Well, I mean, one very simple thing, you know, during the Biden administration, you know, all the traditional economic indicators tell you that the country is doing really, really well, right? Unemployment going down, prime going

down, GDP going up, tackling the pandemic. And yet you watch the way that people are reporting their satisfaction and their happiness and it's continuing to plummet I went I sort of did a deep dive about three four years ago into the new right and they were having a much more interesting conversation than Democrats were having because they were talking about issues like meaning and purpose right like the most important things to human beings what is their purpose when than Democrats were having because they were talking about issues like meaning and purpose, right? Like the most important things to human beings. What is their purpose when they wake up in the morning? How do they derive meaning? Where does actual contentment and happiness come from? Democrats were not. We just assumed that if you had a job

and you had a decent wage that you were happy and content and that's not actually how it works. People want to feel like they have power and control over their lives. And Republicans were more often than not delivering them arguments that actually spoke to that powerlessness that people felt. Democrats were not. We were engaged in these very wonky conversations

about price and cost and jobs. Republicans were much more in touch with the sort of spiritual crisis that people were going through. And so that's why I do believe that you have to, you know, talk about that loss of power that people have had and how you are going to aggressively transfer power from a handful of people who have too much of it to people that don't have it. And perhaps at the same time, be a little bit less judgmental about the ways in which people have a little bit slower journey

on cultural and social issues than higher income, higher educated voters have. It's interesting because obviously if people had a chance to make a better living or had decent standards of living, they would be happier. But as you point out, there's something I know you've said that it's metaphysical, some of the challenges that we face, that it's spiritual. And, you know, the rights answer to that takes root in religion and family and sort of traditional cultural norms. And what do you think the Democratic Party's answer

to that is beyond policies that can lift people up economically? Well, I mean, part of it is understanding that there are pieces that the new right has come to understand that aren't fundamentally wrong. So one of the things that the new right says is that one income should be good enough for a family, right? Now they believe that that one income should go to the male, right?

They want a sort of traditional family in which the man works, the woman doesn't, and the economy is structured in a way that delivers that sort of trad world. Why couldn't Democrats also be for the premise that one income should be enough for a family but be aggressively agnostic as to who is working, right? That actually is a premise that would sell broadly to Americans but we have become convinced that if if if we talk about anything that sort of sounds traditional or codes patriarchy that we are violating our kind

of progressive base. And so I do think that we get scared off by some of the ideas that they have that are kind of, that come from dangerous places but have elements to them that are actually good, and that's a good one. We should be for an economy in which if one parent wants to stay home to raise the kids, they can and that their spouse's income is enough to pay the bills. How much do you think the parties focus on the importance of identities, whether they are racial identities, gender identities, sexual orientation, where you're from, what you believe about politics

has sort of led us to this place where we have de-emphasized the need for national identity. And I sometimes wonder that as the party of where we believe in progressive government and collective action and community that this focus on sort of putting us all into our own buckets, which also you know the right does as well, it sometimes saps us of that national identity that can sort of you know bring us together and give us something to rally around. Well and when I talk about the spiritual

crisis that's happening in this country, it is very much along those lines that people really do want to believe in a broader common good. They don't want to just belong to an identity group. They don't want the only thing to matter being the health of their individual family. They actually want to belong to something bigger. And that's very hard today. It's very hard today because institutions

that brought you in contact with people that were different from you, like a church or union, are much, much weaker. Both parties are selling this us versus them narrative. The Republicans pitting ethnic groups or religious groups against each other, Democrats sort of telling you that the way you should identify yourself is based upon your sexuality or race. And I think people are sort of crying out for a much more unifying vision about what

unites us and some real practical policies that would help us get that done. I mean, that's why to me something like, you know, universal service is a really wonderful good idea that speaks to a value that people sort of want to rise to, the idea that we're going to structure government in a way that helps us serve others, in a way that helps us learn about other people, that speaks to our better angels. And Democrats traditionally haven't talked in those terms. We just talk in old fashioned, you know, kitchen, I will help you get more healthy economically and that's going to deliver happiness when happiness actually comes from belonging to

something bigger than you, belonging to a community and government policy could instead help effectuate that goal. I remember when I started working for then Senator Barack Obama, it was 20 years ago this month, one of the first big speeches he gave was about faith and his faith and all faiths. And you know, he started that speech writing about this spiritual crisis of belonging and the lack of meaning. And so that was in 2005.

That was before the iPhone. That was before social media became the primary way in which a lot of people interact with each other and find other people in community. And so I want to zero in on the social media part of your critique, because it's something we talk about all the time on this show, not just what it's doing to our kids, what it's doing to us, our relationships, our ability to interact and debate

and just function as a society. Feels like an enormous problem that even if we were able to pass a lot of the proposed policy solutions, it would still leave us addicted or at least reliant on these platforms to communicate and interact. What do you think? Is it possible to put the toothpaste back in the tube here? Does this require sort of a cultural shift

as well as a policy strategy? Listen, I knew it. No, I don't think you could put all the toothpaste back in the tube because these are really useful tools. And it's just wild to me that after 100 years of looking at new technologies, whether it be nuclear power or specialized medicines and deciding that we're going to regulate them in a way that gets the good and tries to suppress as much of the bad, we just stopped doing that when it came to social media and the internet.

And now it looks like We're about to do that with AI You know but I think that some common-sense regulations here especially with respect to how social media intersects with children would give us a fighting chance because What happens when you become so addicted to the technology as a kid is that you have no chance to break out of that as an adult And the and the data John, since he gave that speech 20 years ago, is just shocking, right? Kids since that time have now spend half as much time every single week with peers as they did 20 years ago. There's just a cataclysmic decline in socialization. And politically, what's

interesting about this moment right now is that Republicans seem to be retreating from a critique of social media because those tech companies have now folded into the new right. And so whereas even two years ago, there was kind of an argument that the right and the Republicans were sometimes more critical of the tech companies and we were at risk of being outflanked on what I think is a very popular message. Now it's there for the taking because you're not allowed to criticize Facebook or Amazon or X, Twitter, now that they are part of the regime.

So Democrats have a real political opportunity to be the party that says, no, we're not going to let any kids on social media until they're 13. Those phones are not going to be allowed in our schools. Take the hard line, Republicans can't, and that's a real political opportunity for us. Yeah, it does seem to me like maybe the biggest vulnerability for Trump and the Republican Party right now

is the alliance that they have forged with these tech oligarchs, not just because people don't love billionaires making decisions, all the decisions about our lives, but also because they happen to run these platforms that are making us all miserable. And I do wonder if, as you're thinking about like what the Democratic Party needs to do, sort of exploiting this division or this wedge between sort of the the new right and the tech billionaires that have now taken over the party is is part of the strategy here. Yeah, but can we do it? Because, you know, we were in bed with them for a long time,

right? And there is a there is a still a almost genetic reluctance in the Democratic Party to take on the tech industry from the highest levels of the Democratic Party down to the middle and grassroots. We also just are really hesitant to kind of use the kind of terminology and name the kind of names that are necessary to be legitimate. Again, I spoke to this earlier in the conversation. I mean, it is, Elon Musk is not super popular Like he's not he's he's there for the takedown

if Democrats want to engage in it, but you have to engage in it and There's a there's a little bit of There's an element of Democrats being afraid and then there's an element of Democrats just not being used to engaging in a real hard critique of the tech industry. And I just think if we don't engage, we're wrong because these guys are destroying us and we're missing a big political opportunity. It seems like one of the big challenges right now is that Trump has all the power.

He and his allies have the megaphone. And to the extent that Democrats get heard It's in response to him Smashing our institutions which comes through as a defense of those institutions Even though many of us agree with voters that those institutions are badly in need of reform How did Democrats offer people on an alternative vision for the country in the midst of what is essentially a non-stop all-out assault on American democracy. So just two pieces to that. One, I think we are learning that you have to take him on in real time, that you literally can't allow for five or ten minutes to go by between what he says and attacking

it as a lie. And you and I are speaking on the day after the crash, the airplane crash. And I had a debate inside my staff today after that press conference he gave, like, should we wait out of respect for the families or do we need to correct the record right away? And we decided to engage immediately. So I think Democrats are understanding that.

The second one is a bigger topic and that is rebuilding Democrats' credibility as the government reform party. Because when we critique Trump for engaging in kleptocracy, for stealing to enrich his billionaire friends, people are like, really? You guys are just as corrupt. You let Menendez stick around in the caucus when he was guilty of heinous shit. You haven't talked about actual government reform for decades. That has not been at the top of your priority list.

I think we have to solve for that. We have to get back to where this party was 20 years ago when ethics reform and campaign finance reform Were like a top one two or three issue for Democrats It isn't anymore. It isn't like what number is campaign finance reform for Democrats today like 15 16 so I think ethics reform campaign finance reform like just has to be Elevated as an issue that we talk about every day. And just to get back to another topic that we just, we talk about all the time on this show is loneliness. I know you've been talking a lot about that.

We've had a former Surgeon General now, Vivek Murthy on, and I've talked to Robert Putnam. And I wonder how you think about incorporating that in the larger story Democrats are telling about where the country needs to go. Because, again, there are policies, I think you mentioned national service, I think that would be helpful. But I do think that the loneliness, it's not just about what it's doing to our mental and

emotional well-being. It's I think that we don't trust each other as much anymore because we don't know each other. And all we do know of each other are the caricatures we see of each other online when often we are at our worst. And I think that this loneliness epidemic, it's talked about a lot with kids and just like how people are feeling, but it feels to me like it is inextricably linked to the health of our democracy and that we cannot get out of this moment unless we sort of

Address that how do you think about addressing that? Yeah. I mean, listen, I I think people do want healthy communities In which they have relationships again with people that aren't just their immediate family The weird thing is and this was in a recent Atlantic article by Derek Thompson that was very good on this topic, he points out that today actually we're way more connected to our immediate network than we ever were before, right? It used to be that you'd have to wait until you got home at night to talk to your wife or your kids.

Now you're in touch with them all day. We're much more connected to our sort of global identity network, right? I now know in real time what the people that believe in the things that I believe in, whether it be political or otherwise, are doing on a daily basis. But you're much less connected to your sort of less formal connections, the folks that live in your neighborhood, for instance. And that's why we automatically grow suspicious of other people because we sort of don't have

that connection to community members and we let other people define them for us. But there are solutions to that, right? Solutions that are really attractive to people. Like having a concerted effort to rebuild downtowns. To just say, you know what, this feels really icky to buy everything from Amazon or Walmart. Let's have a really concerted national strategy to support healthy downtowns and small businesses

to bring us back in person. Let's support local journalism. Let's have local newspapers again where we can learn about our neighbors. Let's build healthy institutions. Is there a government policy to help churches be more healthy, to help labor unions be more healthy, institutions are both the right and the left that we can join and be a part of? I mean, I think that that's a conversation that people are ready for, that's kind of outside of the traditional left-right dynamic and speaks

to the loneliness and the emptiness that people are feeling in this sort of hyper-consumer economy, this hyper-online economy in which we've sort of lost connection to our neighbors. Chris Murphy, thank you for joining Offline and thanks for modeling the right democratic behavior right now and for speaking out. I appreciate you doing that and keep it up. Thanks, man. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, John Favreau, along with Max Fischer. The show is produced by Austin Fischer and Emma Illich-Frank. Jordan Cantor is our sound

editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seg Illich-Frank. Jordan Cantor is our sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglen. Dilan Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeleine Herringer, and Adrian Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Music