Offline with Jon Favreau - How “The Truman Show” Explains Life in 2024

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

Jon Lovett and Erin Ryan join Max to discuss how “The Truman Show,” predicted our current era of continuous surveillance and content mining. The movie may be from 1998, but its insights are just as applicable 25 years later—from cults of celebrity, to Fox News, to Instagram. Is Ed Harris’ dome over Burbank a cautionary tale about fascist governance? Do we all hide parts of personalities, depending on context? Why was Jon Lovett freaked out by the Hunger Games premiere? Find out in this week’s Offline Movie Club. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. 

Kristoff is not very good. His show is not very good. It's not very interesting. When he decides they're done with Laura Linney, they just introduce a beautiful woman for him to meet at the office. It is boring. He's not willing to push the boundaries.

He creates the most boring version of a 1950s television show that he can, but makes one of the characters a real person. That's not that good. He's a real Ryan Murphy. No, hey, hey now. People are just catching strays. Ryan Murphy's taking it? That's not

fair to Ryan Murphy. I'm sorry, he's that, but with just outlandish shit. You're just like, oh, really? Oh, we're going to hack Ariana Grande to death in episode three? Oh, so exciting. I just think it is creative. I'm Max Fisher.

I'm John Lovett. I'm Erin Ryan. This is Offline Movie Club. Every episode we discuss one of our favorite movies and how it reflects or shapes how we think about technology and the internet, this week we are talking about The Truman Show, the 1998 movie about a reality show contestant who realizes he must escape the show, whatever it takes, in order to get back to the progressive podcast company he co-owns in time for the election. Thank you for dawdling that.

It's not going to be the last. I'm so sorry. No, I know. I actually was watching and I was like, oh, this is going to bug me to death. No, The Truman Show is about, I was watching and I was like, oh, this is going to bug me. Yeah. No, it's a Truman Show is about a man who realizes his entire life has been an elaborate reality show in which everyone around him is an actor. John, Aaron, it's time to accept the reality of the world with which we are presented. Aaron, what to you makes this movie important for how we think about technology and the internet? Well, I'm immediately going to get academic, but it sort of, it reminds me of like the digital panopticon that we all like live inside right now. Like we have kind of willingly put us in positions where we can be surveilled at all times. And even though

we're not interesting and maybe we're not the star of the show, we could be made the star of the show at any moment. And marketers have access to you as though you are the star of the show at any moment. And marketers have access to you as though you are the star of the show because of everything that you've put out there in the surveilling implements that are all around us all the time. Yeah, it is very much about we were all going to be part of the Truman Show at some point in our lives, and we're all both dreading and pining for that in some weird way. John, what do you think? I think for me, it's the flip side of that, which is the voyeurism that people are willing to participate in,

even though everyone on some level understands that what's happening to this person is morally reprehensible, and yet they watch it. And the fact that a meta culture exists around how, like, both, you know, we see it in the form of like the activism that takes place around the Truman Show in this world. But also it is clearly on the minds of the viewers. Like, how does this end?

How will he escape? And so you have all these people participating in something they know to be wrong, enjoying as the thing itself, while also enjoying the prospect of it falling apart, which is, I think, a big way we all consume media we're morally ambivalent about. And that felt very relevant to me. How does it end?

The button that Natasha McClellan's character was. And you get to be sort of both the person that is in, the person that is the pursuer is in the person that is the pursuer and then the person that celebrates the victory as well like you get to identify with the people watching you know you you are consuming the content but at the same time like you get to be a good person when you're happy that he gets out you know there is a kind of unacknowledged like weird sickness that the audience is both cheering for him to escape but also has been participating in his imprisonment for years yeah right it's never spoken in the movie well so what's interesting is i was i was watching this closely because i was i was thinking about it

and i am and what i was curious about is is there a moment in the film The Truman Show where The Truman Show is not on? And there's only one. Yeah. There's only one moment when The Truman Show is not on, including a moment, I also include it being on, is when there's technical difficulties. It's only the moment where she runs down the stairs. For the rest of the movie, you are watching,

either you're watching, you are either watching The Truman Show, you are watching The Truman Show on a television, you are watching people are either watching the Truman Show. You are watching the Truman Show on a television. You are watching people who are watching the Truman Show. It's on. You can't see it, but you're actually, you're always, you actually are always, you are the TV. Right. And you have like, it's like, it's like faded at the edges so that you have like a voyeuristic.

And so the only moment in the entire movie where you are not in some way consuming the Truman Show in the Truman Show is when she's running down the stairs. Right. That's it. And that's one moment. They do put so much emphasis on that shot, too. The score is really soaring for that shot. It's the kind of he realized you realize that he's going to escape. Yeah.

I went to the premiere. And obviously I'm bragging of the Hunger Games. And I didn't I never consumed Hunger Games. And I never consumed The Hunger Games. I just went for fun. I wasn't a big fan. I was like, oh, a big fun movie. I'll go, that'll be interesting. And there's a moment in The Hunger Games

where the hero and the hero's friend, Rue, I think is the name. I don't know. They're being attacked by two other children. And they survive the attack. And don't know. They're being attacked by two other children. Mm-hmm. And they survive the attack. And one of the older children gets killed. Mm-hmm.

Now, in the world of The Hunger Games, you might... I'm glad the bad kids died. And the good kids didn't. Right. But as a viewer of the film, you're supposed to know that these are all victims

of The Hunger Games. But the crowd went wild in the premiere. And then you look around and you're like, you're not watching a movie about The Hunger Games. You were watching The Hunger Games. Maybe I'm wrong.

I want to come back to this because there's something that I learned in researching the backstory of this movie and who almost directed it, which you guys might know that I won't spoil, but we'll come to later. But I think speaks so much to the way this movie implicates the viewer and like pulls you into this double game of you're watching both the show and the movie at the same time. But like, we will get to that. But I for me, what makes this movie really important is that, we talk a lot here about movies that are prescient, but this is like a whole level beyond prescient where it truly pulls off this magic trick where when they were first making the movie, reality TV didn't even exist yet. The real world. The real world had existed since, like, 92. Yes, the real world. That's right. Is the one.

Yeah, because they started scripting it, I think, like 94, 95. But it was like they were only vaguely aware of it. And they have said, at least, that they did not have reality TV in their mind when they set out to make it. And then it comes out as they are starting filming and they start to wrap it in. But since then, as reality TV has developed, the movie just looks like it tracks more and more what reality TV ended up becoming. And like you referenced this, Aaron, like the era of digital surveillance, 15 years after this movie comes out, it feels like Truman Show is about that. And like now it feels like Truman Show is about being online. It feels like Truman Show is about existing in social media and the internet, which are things that did not exist

when they made the movie, which is amazing. I think it also is a reflection of the sort of end point of being stuck in an ideological vacuum. So like if you like, let's say you're a Fox News viewer, you know, you hear all the time about like people who are people's parents who started watching Fox News and like went crazy. created for them. Like everything out there is dangerous. Like the cities are scary. San Francisco is on fire. And if you leave, if you leave us, like we're the ones telling you about it. And if you leave, you are in danger. And it's sort of a way to keep attention as a commodity. Like I feel like media outlets that have an ideological bent, present company excluded, create a sort of a vibe, basically, that you are, if you do not listen to these people, if you do not stay in here, you lose your community, you subject yourself to

danger. And so it sort of reminded me of like, being a Fox News viewer. That's interesting. It's funny, like, going even one step beyond that, take it even outside of media, like as just a metaphor for living in a controlled state of some kind, whether it's an authoritarian state or just an invasive planned community where everybody's in each other's business. I think there's like an interesting choice just in the way the movie deals with Truman's experience, which is from the very first shot of the movie, he's fucking miserable. Yeah. He is miserable when you meet him. But he doesn't know why.

He doesn't totally know why. But you said this, like he realizes he's in a TV show. And I think there are people that would say that that's not true, that he in some way knew the first time you see Truman, he's making a TV show.

Right. He's making a movie to the mirror, right? And you see in flashback how he ended up in this position. But by the time we've met him, he is already confused by how he feels. He's unsure of his surroundings. He doesn't believe it. And then you start to see that this like controlled system is actually pretty incompetent. Like it's an authoritarian state that's actually pretty incompetent.

There's lights falling. The radio suddenly goes into narrating his experience. The rain doesn't totally work. People are breaking in all the time. Like this is a failing fascist state that is slowly crumbling around him at year 35 or whatever the year is. And it's interesting that those things aren't what changes him. He is already ready to go before those things happen.

He is talking about the first time we see him at work, he's trying to find out where she is in Fiji, not trying very hard. But he wants out before the light falls, before he stops the buses, before any of that. To me, what I read into that, and I think this is what makes the movie so timeless, even as like technology has changed, our media environment has changed. The reason it always feels so current is I think it speaks to this feeling we all have that we are in a kind of world and a media culture that feels very manufactured and distancing and very isolating. And we're all kind of like yearning for this sense of human connection. But at the same time, those same media industries are responding to that by delivering us like faked versions of real connection, whether that's reality TV, whether it's like your Facebook friends that just make us feel more isolated and empty. And I think it's kind of about this feeling

that Truman is having that he's subconsciously aware that the world that he is in is false, that it's isolating him from people, that his connections aren't real. And he's coming to identify what is making him feel that way so that he can break out of this thing that's imprisoning him. Yeah. And off what you said, Levitt, the fact that he's miserable and he's around other people, we learned that they are actors, right? We know they're actors, and they kind of have their own private miseries as well. So they're coexisting in a space where they're all representing a sort of artificial happiness. But each person behind the scenes, like Meryl, Laura Linney's character, behind the scene, she doesn't like him that much. She crossed her fingers when they got married. And there's the break room that he accidentally sees when the elevator doors open. All of these people have their own private lives and private miseries, even though at the beginning Meryl says it's like a lifestyle and this is her life. It reminds me of when you log on to Instagram and when you're not feeling good

and you scroll through and you're like, everybody here is fucking walking around with like this fake digital ghost of themselves that is just happy all the time we're all in the truman show on our phones i find something very beautiful about the movie is that he is never there's a few exceptions right somebody breaks in natasha mccall hone as sylvia basically says this is all fake this is all fake. This is all fake. These seeds are planted. But he has to build an identity outside of this TV show from inside of this TV show.

And the way he does it is by grabbing bits of truth and making a new thing. Like he makes a collage, right? That's what he's always doing. Like that's what he does. He gets these fake fashion magazines and he painstakingly finds features in them that seem real to him in the form of Sylvia. And he builds a real face from all of these fake faces. And there's something to me beautiful about, there's something very like progressive and anti-fascist in the idea that you can't control information even in the most controlled information

a person who yearns for authenticity and freedom will find a way to understand it even if they don't have the words and which is why i like the idea like the whole movie is built around the idea that if he wants to escape he will and and part of it is having to figure out the words you know it's like he's he's handed this sort of, you know, he's always handed his stuff that reinforces what he's supposed to think. And he takes bits of it and tries to make something new out of it. And I always think that was beautiful. There is something beautiful about he's creating something real and authentic

out of the detritus of this fake, false, consumerist, capitalist world. It reminds me a little bit of like Chinese art that is subversive, that they're able to make despite the fact that they are living in a really controlled state. Like a lot of art that I guess cultural critics make relies on puns. So they'll put together these images

that because Chinese is a tonal language, they mean something different in a different tone. Oh, yeah. Ai Weiwei does this. Yeah, yeah. You see the images together and you're like, oh, so these people are openly doing what Truman did. They're taking pieces that are acceptable, putting them in together into something that communicates something real and outside of the acceptable

within their country. That's great to compare him to Ai Weiwei and so much smarter than I was going to compare him to Neo from The Matrix. Although I will hold that this movie is just The Matrix, but nicer and less impressive special effects. All right, let's move on to what is the biggest thing this movie gets right. I will just read a quote from Laura Linney that she gave to Vanity Fair 20 years after the movie came out. We would all laugh about how unrealistic some of it seemed. We couldn't quite believe that someone would want to tape themselves so that people could tune in, watch what was considered at the time to be mundane, and see that as entertainment.

And then it turned out that that is just what all of our culture is now. Yeah, jeez. Erin, what do you think? What's the biggest thing the movie gets right? Well, I've been watching a little highbrow television program called Love Island USA recently. I was going to bring this up to actually just got back from maternity leave and you spend a lot of time just kind of sitting at weird times. And so I watched all the episodes. But the line from the film where Ed Harris's character, Kristoff, says everything on the show is for sale, like when they're when they're kind of doing the meta TV interview about the TV show. That's what is happening on Love Island USA.

Like you can, after the show, you can go to the Love Island USA store and you can buy the things that the people are wearing. And on Instagram now that you can tag places to buy things that you see on Instagram. It's it really was like, yeah, this isn't this feels like exactly the way things are now. And I think in 1990, yeah, in 1998, the idea of you being able to like watch the X-Files and go buy a trench coat afterwards, like the exact one that Sully was wearing is like, that's not that that was like science fiction. Impossible to imagine. Yeah.

And they did it. It's funny. I was going to bring up Love Island because I thought that this movie presages the way that reality TV kind of blurs with sex work in some ways that are like very uncomfortable. Like there's a reference to Laura Linney sleeping with him despite not liking him at all. And that's just like a weird thing to throw out there. I guess never really. That never happens in the real world. People sleeping with people they don't like.

That's true. Because they feel like they should. Yeah. There's also a very of the 90s way in which they handle that, which is they make sure they go to two viewers and one viewer says the other. Can you ever get to see anything so that you as the viewer of the Truman Show film can still watch it without being even more disgusted. These people are human trafficked into sex work. For me, it is the voyeurism that I think was pretty ahead of its time.

This is before Big Brother, which again is a lot, I think, more like this than maybe. It was 2003 that Big Brother. So it's like five years before. This is before Survivor, which did change everything and have an obligation because there's a camera between them. Right. You know, like it reminds me of people filming a car crash and being like, you should go help. Right. Like these are all people watching this.

Like will Truman escape? Will Truman escape? Like people should break break in this place should be torn apart this is a moral crime that everybody's watching and everybody knows it and i just think they're like yeah but it's so entertaining and it's like really fun right yeah so like if you're a utilitarian you're like okay the amount of happiness that i am deriving from this person's unhappiness combined with all the other happiness means that it's justifiable yeah there's and I can always count on you to bring the effective altruist viewpoint to any podcast, which I appreciate. Thank you so much. Well, I hadn't watched Truman Show in a while, and I never watched it like this,

I was really trying to watch it closely. And when he sees his father on the street, and they grab him on bus and he goes away and he's just standing there alone, if you look behind him, sitting over the arches of the city is a Latin phrase and it's one for all, all for one. I didn't notice that. And I do think that idea that what Laura Linney says at the beginning, I consider it a blessed life. His name is Christoph. There is something religious. There's a fundamentalism to this that there's a kind of, we are all engaged in a product of showing you the value of a traditional revanchist way of living. And together we are creating this and showing how magical and powerful this is

through this figure that we all worship and control. So it's very much like a Mormon housewife blog, like Ballerina Farm. Seriously, because she's made a character that she's, I don't know if you guys have been following along with the whole Ballerina Farm drama. I have drama. But she is this beautiful former ballerina who went to Juilliard for dance. So she was like nothing to sneeze at. Lived in New York City, meets this fucking guy whose dad happens to own JetBlue. They get married when she's like right

at the end of her school career. She doesn't really get a career after she goes to move to his homestead with him in rural Utah. And now they have like seven kids and she's 34. I don't know if it's seven. They have a lot of children and she's 34. And there was an interview that she did with a journalist a couple weeks ago where she talked about how there's a little bit of sadness that seeps through like in the interview. And then once the interview came out, people started re-watching clips that she'd put online, and they were like, oh, my God, this woman's story is actually sad. Like, she is, like, imprisoned within this life. Like, her ballet studio got turned into a homeschool classroom.

Like, all of these things, like, she's actually sad. So it made the audience that had prior, like previously been consuming her stuff, like maybe with a little bit of jealousy or like get a load of this fucking liar, you know, that sort of a thing. And then afterwards they're like, oh, she doesn't even have a nanny. This is what she's doing all day.

She's got kids hanging off of her. She didn't get to dance. Now they feel good in like having uncovered the truth. And it sort of reminds me of like, the children themselves don't feature that much as much as like other parents who have like influencer careers. But it made me think of sort of more exploitative influencers who take their children and just make that put them online from the time that they're born and profit from it. And the kids don't really have any say over it. And there's videos of them crying.

And now there's kids that are teenagers who have basically grown up online it seems like they're both promoting an idyllic sort of mormon hetero like like prolific with children lifestyle but they're also covering up the harm that they're doing to the children at the center of it i do think there's a version of this movie that really leans into the religious iconography and symbolism of it. Like the fact that Kristoff is clearly supposed to be a God figure, kind of like you're saying, implies that Truman is the Jesus figure. Or Job.

Or Job. But there is a version of this movie that portrays like Truman as the Jesus who sacrifices himself, but for our entertainment. And that the like Christ figure that we won in 1998 America is someone who will give us 24 hours of reality TV, basically. There's one scene in particular that I really took as speaking to me of like a thesis statement of the movie that I found really powerful. It's the scene where Noah Emmerich is on the dock with Truman. And we're just kind of starting to, as the viewer, really starting to understand that he's in a TV show and how the TV with Truman. And we're just kind of starting to, as the viewer really starting to

understand that he's in a TV show and how the TV show works. And we see Ed Harris for the first time cut in to feed Noah Emmerich lines as he's trying to console Truman, who's worried that something terrible is happening. Let's play the clip. The point is, I would gladly step in front of traffic for you, Truman. And the last thing I'd ever do is lie to you and the last thing that i would ever do is lie to you it's a heartbreaking scene he's so isolated the person who he's turning to in this time of need is just using him and turning against him. I also found it like I read it as kind of

symbolic of Noah Emmerich as a stand in for popular entertainment and our media culture, who is lying to us in specifically by promising authenticity, and that that authenticity is kind of the big lie. Yeah, I think that's true. And I actually think there's a way in which the movie indicts us in that as well. Because what is the ultimate sin that causes Truman to leave? It's not that he's surveilled 24 hours a day. It's not that Laura Linney didn't really love him even, or that his friends aren't real, or the town isn't real, or that they scared him to believing his father is dead. Their biggest sin was a production mistake, which is they cast the wrong girl as his love interest. He just wants to go on a date with the girl he was attracted to, who he felt a connection with. That's what he wants.

Yes, he tilts at the idea that Fiji is very far away and he tries at one point to go to Chicago, but he has one obsession, which is he had a love at first sight moment with someone who, as far as we know, was an activist from the day she arrived and had a plan to try to get to Truman. And when they're down by the water,

you can watch that scene in two ways. You can watch it as a genuine connection between these two people, even though he's supposed to be falling in love with Laura Linney. But he makes some very silly, childish jokes, right? He's like, pizza with extra plankton, Luigi, right? And it's awful. It's the kind of joke you'd make if you've only seen censored content and you've been surrounded by actors. And she laughs and she loves it. And she lets him kiss her. And she then says, they're coming, they're coming. This is all a show. Then she delivers her message.

And we never really hear her speak again to Truman. We see her talk to Kristoff. She doesn't say, I love him. I want to see him. She is political. She has a message. Get him out of here. I have an agenda.

I went there as part of my agenda, and I still have that agenda. And when she's happy that he's leaving, he's leaving because he's in love with this person he's made up in his mind. Who hasn't seen in 10 years, 15 years. And we are so drawn up in it. I don't think anybody, like when he runs out of there, like you're not thinking he's going to run up to her and she's going to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right? Like that could very well be what would happen.

They don't actually know each other. They hung out for an hour running. And while he made dumb jokes that she laughed at because she was on television right but like we are so swept up in a narrative that i think is ultimately false because we were watching the truman show too that's all i'm saying yeah i was really left conflicted about the relationship because i i think the way that you're supposed to read it is that she is someone who really loves him and that he senses that genuine. I agree with you. I agree with you. But I think that at least superficially supposed to read it as like she really loves him.

And he is drawn to that because no one else in his life actually cares for him. They're all acting except for her. I have two pieces of trivia. OK. Because I read up on the trivia. One, the script was or a version of the movie was written with Truman as a teenager. And then when Jim Carrey signed on. So like think about that as like if that character were a teenager, it would make a lot more sense that they would think they were in love after hanging out for an hour

and that she would be waiting for him after they like leave the set. So that's that's one thing. The second thing is and I think it contributes to the sort of stark, cold relationship between Kristoff and Truman and also the God allegory thing, is that Ed Harris and Jim Carrey never were on set together. They did not meet when they were filming this, much like an absent God in people's lives. Like, they think that he's up there. And irony of that is that I kind of agree with you, John, that I don't think Natasha McElcone's character really cares for him.

It's political. I think Kristoff's character does. There's a couple of shots where I think you're supposed to believe that he really loves Truman. So, sorry, is trying to drown you? Not normal dad behavior. Well, that was just standard how they showed their love. So I think that two things made this elevate this movie.

And if you change them, the movie would feel different, even if you didn't change anything else. One is the fact that there's Philip Glass music, which is. And Philip Glass himself is in the movie. Is he really? Yeah, he's on the keys. Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's so fun. The other is that Ed Harris was a last minute recast of Dennis Hopper. Yes, it would have been such a different movie.

It would have been such a different movie. I know. And if we have the clip of the moment where the executive says you can't kill him. It's the best part of the movie, I think. Give me some light. Again. Hit him again. God save Chris.

The whole world is watching. We can't let him die in front of a live audience. He was born in front of a live audience. I am telling you, for the life... How close is he? Very close. Capsize him. Tip him over. Damn you, ripped off! No, you can't!'t he's tied up to the boat he's gonna drown he doesn't even care do it

do it so what i like about that is it's one of the only lines that actually doesn't work because the kristoff we see that ed harris embodies which of course ed harris plays him as a cerebral aloof genius uh is you can't kill him on television why he was born on television that's a dennis hopper line yeah that's a dennis hopper straight up villain line you see the dennis hopper coming through and when at the very end of the movie when uh you know when when when christ says, you're on television. Again, that's a Dennis Hopper line. And so Ed Harris plays him like a kind of distant father, but he's called Christophe, not exactly light touch there. And imagine Dennis Hopper much more as a villain. And there are other little touches that are strange.

If you look at the feet of Paul Giamatti and the other person in the studio, they're wearing covers on their shoes. I didn't notice that. Because they're in Kristoff's home. Oh. And so- He lives in the moon. He lives in the moon.

It's his villain's lair. He comes out in a robe. Oh, yes, that's right. We do see that. He's much more like Ed Harris plays him they put a fucking beret on him

yeah I think in the opening scene or maybe later yeah yeah Ed Harris can make anything feel less broad and silly which is what he does here

which is amazing which I think saves the movie yeah but imagine it more as you're in the moon evil layer

of Dennis Hopper megalomaniac TV executive. And I feel like then then I think that that to me makes makes the whole thing make more sense. Well, you know what I think is interesting about the ending part where he like is not afraid with him dying on television and then ultimately he survives um as audience members watching this his survival sort of vindicates us it's like we're forgiven right for watching this because he made it participated in his yeah yeah but he made it like and and if if god if christoph would have actually killed him then the audience would be forced to to reckon with their own sins but him getting out was like a form of forgiveness for the audience. Like we're able to forgive ourselves because he survived.

So it had a happy ending. So it's all fine. The way that I read Ed Harris playing that scene, both the scene where he's trying to kill him and then the scene afterwards where he's talking to him, is that he kind of wants Truman to defy him. He wants Truman to go through the storm, to overcome the storm, and to like really take agency over his own life and to do that so that he can then choose voluntarily to live

on the show, which is all Ed Harris really wants. I think that's a very, I think Ed Harris works on you. I'm not too proud to admit it. Picture the same lines in Dennisis hopper it's a person different movie different movie but i think like i think what's happening in that scene is he was fucking lying he could leave anytime he wants you're free to go like it's a sure i he loves the tv show he loves the power cue the sun he loves being in charge. He loves controlling this man. It's parental. It's a bit psychosexual. He owns him. And he tells himself it's okay because Truman can actually

leave whenever he wants. But when he gets right up to the edge, he really is willing to kill him. It's luck that he survives. We're not shown any magical technology. There's no divers that we see. Why wouldn't he drown? He didn't he didn't luckily well what if he did like you know what and what if like you know the i don't know i like the what but what if they're dead m night shamalan twist um if if truman had died and what we were seeing after the but when he's like leaning backwards over the boat and he gets up what if that's all some sort of like fantasy that we get to see because i mean the movie doesn't tell us that but right it would and it would have been a different film but it's something that they could have chosen to do well let's play the clip where ed harris debates natasha mccalcombe he's not a performer he's a prisoner look at him look at what

you've done to him he could leave at any time if his was more than just a vague ambition if he was absolutely determined to discover the truth there's no way we could prevent him i think what distresses you really caller caller he said ultimately truman prefers his cell to me this is about obviously about, obviously, the central tension of the movie. Can Truman bring himself to acknowledge what he knows deep down and to break out of this? And I really read this as a metaphor about, like, can we as a society realize what we have trapped ourselves in with all of the fake manufactured culture and all the isolation we have to make the decision to break out of it? That's how I read it. No, I like that. I also saw it as, like, a meta story about celebrity in general.

Like if you're a celebrity and you have an entire apparatus that depends on you retaining your celebrity status, then yeah, it's sort of, it's a little bit like a mini Truman show around each like A-lister. So, okay, I hinted at this earlier. The director who almost helmed this movie, and I think you can really feel his influence coming through, especially when you're talking about the voyeurism in the sense that we're complicit in this guy's murder and torture. It was originally going to be a Brian De Palma movie, which makes so much sense.

That makes sense. The voyeurism, you're seeing things through the camera. It was also supposed to be a lot darker, where it was supposed to be like Truman is a bad guy and you don't initially know if it's a show or not. You're just watching things through the camera and he's gradually realizing that he's in this like Twilight Zone. So like Lost Highway, but more coherent. Because really, it kind of at moments is a 70s paranoid thriller. That scene where he's on the road and he's starting to realize that everyone around him is an actor and he runs into the elevator shaft and he stops the bus. I was a little confused about the stopping the bus thing. Like, yeah, if I stand in front of a bus, put my hand up, the bus stops too. That doesn't mean it's a show. But I think what he's realizing that he can't totally articulate is when he does unusual, strange things, nobody says a word to him.

Right. Something's wrong that everybody's in on. And he doesn't totally get it right there. There's one point, I think, right before then or right after that where he darts left and runs right. Achieves nothing. Doesn't help him at all. But on some level, he knows he's supposed to be keeping something, someone on their toes. And he can't really explain why.

How could he? But yeah, there is that idea that like some level he's always known. You know, there's so many things that just, they're not that good at their jobs. They push him up against signs. They're constantly, the fact that Meryl at this moment of their tension, she pushes mo cocoa drink. The fact that they don't have enough extras to not have a couple people walking by, even when he's sitting in the car, they're lazy by the time we get to this. It's a declining fascist state. It's a fascist state that doesn't have the enthusiasm or energy anymore.

It's creaking and breaking. And like his humanity is kind of busting through. I was like that. Yeah. To me, once I learned that, I was like, oh, this is, it's blowout, basically. Yeah. I do think it's, I am happy that Peter Weir took it over. The like happy uplift that he gives it obviously made it much more palatable.

So a lot of people saw it. But it's also just the combination of those two. It really reminded me of AI, the way you can see the Kubrick peeking through all the Spielberg. And they just work so well together. I just thought that was great. Okay. We should move on to our second category here, 45 minutes of the podcast. But the last thing this movie got right right not a lot of people know this but

the producer of this show Emma Elick Frank actually produces it from a giant fake moon suspended several hundred feet above the studio that she lives in that's why we've never seen her that's why she never comes out except but sometimes she will whip up a big storm if she doesn't like your reads and it is weird once in a while I'll see that she's looking at a video

of Favreau on her screen she'll just caress she'll caress the screen. It's deeply uncomfortable. I think it's sweet. I think it's nice. All right. What is the biggest thing this movie gets wrong? The camera technology does not make sense.

Like, why are there no motion sensors on them? Why is there no implant in Truman so that when it comes near a camera, the camera turns on? Ed Harris is a little bit of an uncreative dictator when it comes to surveilling him constantly. Oh, he's got to have his hand on every camera. He's not going to trust AI with that. Sure. But like, you know, they have, yeah, maybe, maybe that makes sense. But I think that ultimately it's a better show if like there's no chance of Truman escaping because there's some sort of motion sensor or like chip sensor embedded in the cameras sure yeah you definitely put an air tag on him i feel like you didn't know you put an air tag on uh i one part of this movie that i just

like did not track for me is the like domestic assault that happens two-thirds of the way through where he attacks laura linney's character with the fucking potato peeler. So come on. I watched it very closely for that reason. And she comes at him with this. He actually, when you first see it, it looks like what he's doing is swinging around and holding it up to her.

But again, because I was watching it closely, he's actually, they thought about this. Okay. Because they really do try to protect Truman, which I actually think is a flaw of the movie. He's too good?

Yeah, I think that doesn't hold up. I don't think a person under these circumstances wouldn't be more fucked up than this. You'd be so much more fucked up than this person.

But you can see that he's really, what he's trying to do is get it away from her. He's trying to pull, he doesn't actually, he gets it, and then if you watch, he kind of takes it away from her. He's trying to pull, he doesn't actually, he gets it, and then if you watch, he kind of takes it away.

But it does look like that. It feels a little domestic assault. Well, no, it is, but that's why she says, I can't work under these conditions. Yeah. Like, he's clearly at the edge. He's not a person who wants to hurt anybody, but he's terrified and confused, and she clearly hates him. But her saying, I can't work under these conditions

indicates that it's not the first time that she's felt like something bad could happen to her. You know what I mean? Like, she's not, I don't know, it seems to me like there's been a lead up to this and this is just kind of the culmination of something she feared

would happen. I mean, this has got to be untenable for everybody. How could this not be hell on earth to be on this show? Well, she also doesn't say I'm scared. She doesn't say get me out of here. It's unprofessional. She says it's unprofessional.

I don't like my scene partner. He's taking this scene too far. And there's something so chilling about the fact that the friend still leads with the beer. He puts the beer through the door first.

They're all watching this, right? They don't, either they don't, again again like they're so cavalier but they've also ruined Laura Linney's life they've ruined that characters like she lives a terrible life they don't care what happens to her either to the point where they're all watching this unfold if they're worried about her

they're worried about her less than they are the show they only care about the show so he still leads with they don't they don't rush in and end the scene they have him go in with beer. Right, turn it into a nice moment and then bring Dad out. Yeah, bring Dad out.

Let's play the, we have a clip from that scene, the Coco clip. Why do you want to have a baby with me? You can't stand me. That's not true. Why don't you let me fix you

some of this new Mo Coco drink? All natural Coco beans from the upper slopes of Mount Nicaragua. No artificial sweeteners. What the hell are you talking about? Who are you talking to? I've tasted other cocos. This is the best.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? Tell me what's happening! That's the scene. Yeah, that's the moment yes i i was gonna say i think that he is bringing the perfect amount of comedic and dramatic delivery to so many of these scenes that would be like really overwrought otherwise or if he played it for laughs too much and he got it right for exactly one movie and then he tipped too much in the direction a laugh out loud moment for me. In the movie, I like laughed out loud. So funny. Also, Eternal Sunshine.

Yes, he's good in that. Okay, that's true. Eternal Sunshine, he's good. So there's the scene earlier where Laura Linney has to go do the amputation because of the elevator disaster. And what's great about that scene, so first of all, what's great about that scene is, if she is one thing, she is a professional.

She is in character. And so, if she is one thing, she is a professional. She is in character. And so if you watch that scene, all the other people around her are confused. They're not sure how to do this, but she doesn't, she's not confused at all. She may be worried about what's going to happen, but she is his wife and she is a nurse. And so she is running the surgery while this other guy's pretending to be a nurse and this other guy's pretending to be a nurse and this other guy's pretending to be a surgeon and they don't really know what to do. But if you watch her, viable, believable. Yeah. She's got kind of the master role. I mean, she's like the number two to Kristoff. But the only mistake she makes, it's the only choice she seems to make

that's wrong as an actor is that one the only time she really does something that her character wouldn't do is when she says the mo cocoa drink thing she manages to get a lawnmower she knows she has to get a lawnmower add-in right uh when he's fixing the lawnmower and she doesn't i think we should get one of those new elk rotaries and then she walks upstairs she gets the add-in she goes but that one it was a mistake and like is she cracking is she angry at him does she really want out right like why like she's in character 24 hours a day basically i think it's because she feels the artifice falling away if she if her whole thing is that she is a professional once it ceases to be a show she doesn't have a role anymore whereas the noah emmerich character seems to be, he seems to understand how to play this manipulation game,

both as an actor, but also as someone who is just there to like handle and manage and manipulate Truman. Yeah. I didn't feel great about like Truman's emotional infidelity from Laurel and his character. Like the whole through line is like, he's in love with Natasha McElhone because they have this genuine connection.

I know we're supposed to be sympathetic because we know their marriage is fake, but he doesn't know that. He's been cheating on her in his mind for years. That's true. We're canceling his ass.

That's it. There's such an arrogance to the production, which is, you know, Laura Linney is someone they clearly wanted to cast for a variety of reasons. They have this other

background actor, Natasha. They have an actual genuine moment together. Better producers would adjust. You know, like he has an infatuation with this person. Let that play out. Keep them both. Let's see where this season goes. Yeah, very Love Island.

The budget is limitless. They seem to have bulldozed three quarters of the valley to build this fucking dome. That's actually something that doesn't make sense or hold up, which is. Where is this? Where? Well, it's above the Hollywood sign. So it's basically Burbank has been domed. And all of this was invested in and began construction before the baby was born or around when the baby was born.

So there's not a single viewer. The upfront costs for the pilot of this show is like probably the GDP of France. No, so like Apple could do it. That's true. Apple could do it. Yeah. Apple could do it. I mean, they've plowed enough money into Apple TV+.

Come on, they could afford something like this. They're dumping money. And they don't care. They don't care where it goes. They don't care they don't care. They don't care where it goes. They don't care if it comes back. They don't care. And Apple, thank you.

Keep that money flowing. All right. Hollywood. I enjoyed Macbeth and the other shows exist. Okay. Moment you most... Hey.

That's right. No. That is pound for pound the best original content and I'm saying that with sincerity. Apple TV is good. Apple TV Plus is good.

More Apple TV Plus. It's fine. More tech companies paying for television programs. There are a lot of writers in this town that aren't working. More shows. More production in LA.

Hey, Newsome. Karen Bass. I want more tax credits for shooting in LA. I'm sick of Vancouver standing in for American cities. I want to make things here. Thank you. Where did Severance shoot?

Not here, right? No, but that is a great show. That's a good show. That's a good show. And Ben Stiller, big fan of Crooked Media, so we have to. Ben Stiller turns out one of the best directors of our time. Ben Stiller, one of the best directors. Jason Bateman, one of the best directors. our time. Ben Stiller, one of the best directors. Jason Bateman, one of the best directors.

Who knew? And you know who actually did know? I'm sorry, this is an aside. Okay. But Ethan Hawke has a very smart diatribe about this, about how film schools and film studies doesn't focus enough on acting as a craft, focuses on directing and lighting and editing

and the craft of filmmaking, but not the craft of acting, but it's actually the great actors who go on to become the great directors. And that should tell us something about what movies are. Like we talk about as a director's medium, but it's also an actor's medium. And I think he's making a really good point.

Are we sure that the best directors are actors? I think that, well. Many of the great directors started out as actors or are actors. Orson Welles. Orson Welles. Yes, that's a good one. To name one. I'll give you Clint Eastwood.

We'll give you Ben. How about Ben Stiller? How about Jason Bateman? The four great directors. Eastwood, Welles, Bateman. That's the non-Rushmore. Everybody does it. Stiller.

No, actually, this brings up something I was thinking about as I was watching this movie. When Ed Harris' character. Thank you for, I appreciate that. Thank you. Put my string, I'll talk. Which I think would make a great limited series. Perhaps dual produced by Crooked and Apple TV+.

I like where you're going with this. Okay. Anyway. There's money in the hills. Dual produced by Crooked and Apple TV+. I like where you're going with this. Okay. Anyway. Okay. There's money in the hills. So I was watching this, and Ed Harris' character, Christoph, talks about how what you're seeing from him is real. Everything around him is fake, but you're seeing something real. of a lot of the ways that male directors used to terrorize actresses because they wanted them to have a real reaction. Like Shelley Duvall in the set of The Shining.

Kim Basinger on the set of Nine and a Half Weeks was apparently just fully abused. And there are so many examples of that. Alfred Hitchcock famously was abusive toward actresses because there was this kind of sexist belief that men could act and they just needed to have women show the real emotion. Women had to be provoked. Yeah. So I think in a way Truman is kind of like feminized.

Like those actresses were and infantilized and believed that like in order for something like the fake, it is morally okay to create a real terrified or scary emotion in a fake environment. And it just, yeah, it reminded me of poor Kim. You know what else this movie gets completely and totally wrong? Kristoff says people don't want pyrotechnics. They don't want special effects. No, sir. They do. Oh, my God.

They do. I take his point that the thing that they really care about, and you can use the pyrotechnics to pull them in, but what they really want, the best part of Top Gun Maverick, the relationship between Tom Cruise and Goose. Okay. Or Goose Jr. Yeah, no, that's what people really came out for. That's why people like, you know, Avengers, Infinity, The Final War. It's because of the human drama. I'm not counting that.

You're not counting the biggest box office? Correct. See, Ed Harris should have been more creative when it was clear that Truman was realizing that he was in a fake world. He could have just been like, all right, you know what? Transformers crossover with Truman Show.

We're going to make the new, we're going to make Truman like just thinking about escaping and living in this sense of sadness. And we we're no, he's invaded by killer robots. Not so sad anymore. I think this movie is absolutely missing if it's going to be accurate to the 90s is crossovers with other shows. Well, that's all in the family should show up at some point. They should just be there. But this is the this is why I think it's important that we never, ever see any media outside of the Truman Show, because that means we never see any actual criticism of The Truman Show. We just see its fans and we see the show itself.

Kristoff is not very good. His show is not very good. It's not very interesting. He when he decides they're done with Laura Linney, they just introduce a beautiful woman for him to meet at the office. It is boring. He's not willing to push the boundaries. He creates the most boring version of a 1950s television show that he can,

but makes one of the characters a real person. That's not that good. He's a real Ryan Murphy. No, hey, hey now. People are just catching strays. Ryan Murphy's taking it? That's not fair to Ryan Murphy. I'm sorry, he's that,

but with just outlandish shit. You're just like, oh, really? This is, oh, we're going to hack-saw Ariana Grande to death in episode three. Oh, so exciting. I just think it is creative. He's made a lot of interesting different things. I mean, Glee in American Horror Story is not like one note. I did enjoy the OJ one.

The OJ one. The OJ one. The Versace one.. I did enjoy the O.J. one. The O.J. one? The Versace one? The Versace one was interesting. It was insane. It was insane. It was bonkers. I loved it.

He was the Kristoff of bonkers plot twists. Great. So there is a very funny thing that Peter Weir, the director of this, does with the Kristoff character, which is in most cases when we are seeing the movie through the TV show, through the like TV cameras, it's terrible. It looks like the Jerry Springer show. It's like fast, shitty zooms and it's like terrible angles from whatever camera they have. Except there are two scenes where you see Ed Harris directing the cameras and then it looks like goddamn Spielberg. The scene when he's on the bridge, that crane shot is great. And then you have this low angle of Truman and then the slow zoom in on him.

And you could tell that Peter Weir was saying, I know this show is supposed to be shit, but if people are thinking about the role of the director as a director, I want them to be impressed. Well, there's another bit of trivia. So the writer put together like a show Bible for the Truman show. So like the actors would know what the show was to the people that watched it. And one of the things about the Truman Show is that it won Emmys. It won a lot of awards. So yeah, it might have felt like an Altman on speed sometimes, but it was supposed to be an award-winning show.

All right. Moment you most related to personally. I do think, you know, All right. Moment you most related to personally. the right things and everyone is doing the right things and we're building the right life and we're going through all the steps and everybody is on board and i'm i'm on board ostensibly and it's just not right no one's gonna make truman make his life better he has to decide to make his own life better and that's what i related to i mean that's i think that's a universal we've all been in that relationship where it feels false and it's it's hard to see that when you're inside of it and getting to that realization, both of it and to do something about it is hard. That's the whole journey. Yeah. The thing I most related to personally is a lot stupider.

It was when Meryl tried to read the ad for my cocoa drink during that. I, too, have read ads and have people get mad at me. That's so funny. I was thinking the same thing with all the product placement because when I saw this movie as a kid, like, oh, isn't that so funny trying to find an organic way

to talk about a product? And now I do it secondhand. I do it all the time. All the time. That's why you keep saying Laura Linney is a pro professional. She knows to get the ad reads. And then sometimes people get mad at me. They get mad at me if I'm talking about something that they don't like or they have information on that I didn't have.

Yeah, I related very, very intensely to doing an ad read and people got mad. I really related to the feeling that it is really, really hard to leave the artificial world that has been created to entrap you, created to turn you into money, but has also been made to be really comfortable and to really ensconce you. And that like the choppy waters that he's trying to sail through at the end to escape, like, I don't know, that could be trying to quit Instagram when you're getting that dopamine rush that you're worried about losing. Or trying to move out of Provo.

Like, trying to leave the religion you were raised with. Right. Trying to leave the ideological, like, leaving QAnon. Like, if you're in QAnon, all your friends are in QAnon, now you gotta leave and it's gonna suck. There's a lot of QAnon to this movie. But also, by the way, it doesn't have to be the culture

you have a problem with or that you are ambivalent about. It doesn't even have to come with a judgment. So much of what Truman is trying to do is figure out the hard part

isn't like jettisoning your assumptions. The hard part is coming to understand that you have assumptions. And we all come to the culture that we grew up in with a bunch of baked in notions of what is immutable, what is not culture. And slowly realizing, actually, wait a second, this way I'm approaching life is a cultural artifact. It's not endemic to me.

It's not natural. It's not automatic. It's actually cultural. Whether it's an approach to class or to gender or to what you wear or whatever it might be, the first step is realizing you have an assumption. And that to me is like when we meet him, he's already realized, oh, wait a second, I've made some assumptions. And then we watch him slowly kind of discover what those assumptions actually mean. But that to me is what was like sort of interesting about it.

Like you can you can love your life. You can love your culture. You can love everything about it. You could not be ambivalent about it. And you still might not understand how much of it is artifice to you. Right. So much of the movie is him realizing that every day he has been making the choice unconsciously to stay in this world. Well, and to compare it again to The Matrix, which you did, I mean, there is a way to look

at this movie as a story of queerness, of a story of making a decision about, like, what, heteronormativity and how to, if you're okay existing inside of it or if you need to go somewhere else. Yeah, the other piece of it, too, is how much of every interaction he's having is either reinforcing how good he has it or making him afraid. That his boss is like, they're making cutbacks at the end of the year. Oh, Truman, you don't like your job? You got a desk job. I'd kill for a desk job. Planes are dangerous.

The world has already been explored. We've got mortgage payments, all of that. It's like how much of what entraps them is just, like the cage is being built every single day, all the time. That's so much of what these characters are doing is just constantly assembling the cage. Well, and I'm realizing as you're saying this,

that so much of that cage is his social position. I mean, there is a, I don't know how intentional it is, but there is a way to read this movie as the prison is capitalism, is the thing that he has bought into and locked himself into. Yeah, you can't, I mean, there's a buy-in and there's a, you got to cash out. Like it's going to cost you can't. I mean, there's a buy-in and you've got to cash out. It's going to cost you to leave. I think that's too easy. I think that that is a way to look at the prison with your view that's comforting. It's really community. But the prison is whatever in society is imposing on you, right? That you're choosing, that you are born into, but have not made the choice to buy

into. Yes, sure. But when his mother says, I'd really love to hold a grandchild before I go, even though she's a young woman. By the way, very great commentary in Hollywood that they always have her with a tissue or she's old. She's young. She's a young person. She's not that old. 37. She's playing it older. Sure, you can say that it is capitalism, but really

it's a set of obligations to the people that he loves and to the status he thinks is important uh you know he wants to study for his finals and they're trying to get him to not study for his finals he's not wanting to study for his finals because of capitalism sure he likes being in school no i'm not saying every single thing and you're right when he's like driving away with laura lenny the thing that she is invoking is your mom is going to be sad if you drive away, which is a thing moms be doing.

I think about the religious component of it. I remember when I first decided I was maybe not going to be Catholic anymore. I remember going to Mass and having a moment where I was like, oh, I always thought that everyone around here was just also pretending to believe in all this stuff. Like, oh, I'm yeah, we know that. Like, yeah, like he didn't really. Yeah, that didn't happen. You know, like I remember thinking that and then I was like, oh, no, these people are. It was kind of the reverse.

It was like, oh, I'm the one that's pretending and these people all actually believe it. And I got to go. We should move on to most unintentionally revealing moment before Emma comes out of her moon studio and unleashes a storm on us. There's a line from the mom at one point. It's about time they cleaned up the trash downtown before we become like the rest of the country. Just 90s insane politics coming out of nowhere. Florida. Florida.

That's right. It was shot in a real place in Florida. But yeah, like that is sort of the religious and conservative element of this, that this is a town, this town's a model. Yeah. It's Beverly Hills. We don't allow the riffraff on our streets.

This place is special. This island is special. And the newspaper headlines saying, Europe sucks, don't go to Europe. Best place in America. His deskmate comes across, he's on the phone calling Fiji, and he picks up and points at it. He's like, look, we're still number one.

Just crazy shit. That was like the USA RNC rhetoric. Like, America's the best country the entire world has ever seen. And meanwhile, half of the people that are excited about watching the speaker have never used their passport. Not because they can't. Because they can't because they don't want to use their resources to and to challenge themselves or fairness there's a lot of good stuff in america there's oh america's great in we love america in many ways no no no no like

the the natural beauty of this usa number one wow aaron coming out against the national parks i think no best in the world. Leave me alone. Number fucking one. Leave me alone. No, there's a lot. Number one, baby. A lot to sell. Most medals at the Olympics.

That's true. Eat shit. Eat shit. The American women, if they were a whole country, would have been number three. Really? If the American women were just their own country, they would have been. Let's freaking go. Yeah.

Let's go, women. No visa for J.D. Vance, am I right? Yeah. Okay. country they would freaking go yeah let's go women no visa for jd vance am i right okay so i thought an unintentionally revealing moment uh was the fact that there's only like one black family in town i noticed and everyone is like that's okay that's an okay number of black people to be in this town definitely very late 90s and they dressed and acted just like all the white people and there was no like nobody commented on it, but they were the only ones. And that, yeah. Not a lot of cultural diversity.

But it also is like not just about the 90s. It's also about Hollywood. Like Hollywood's like, oh, one black family that should do it. Like that that represents what a person would accept as reality in America. I thought it was very revealing that the thing that finally gets provokes him to rebel against his world and break free is kind of getting divorced. He's kind of our first divorce guy. Yeah. He gets really into sailing, which I thought was a very divorce guy thing to do.

It's a very divorce guy to get into sailing and to rebel against the reality of your world, I feel. I just love all the little moments where actors are being actors like i can't work under these conditions there's a lot of like like um when christoph is in noah emmerich's year noah emmerich doesn't say exactly what christoph says he changes it because he's got to make it his own because i saw that right it Right. It's very actor-y. I would step into traffic for you. He changes it because he is the character. I thought it was a good choice. But simply a choice. We could have seen more from the execs, like giving him notes, like stupid notes that made no sense.

It's Philip Baker Hall. How do you not use more Philip Baker Hall in your movie? I want to see an extended cut of this movie. This movie is so tight. Hour 42? I know. It really is. It's like every single cut of this this movie is so tight hour 42 i know it really is like every single frame of it is like necessary it's really cut it's i love a movie that is like cut within an inch of its life every single frame is necessary uh-huh speaking of which uh

what would be different if it came out today i mean obviously it would be a social media company instead of a tv company i think instead of one person you'd have to have like everybody in it and kind of the like mystery of it would be who's in on it and who's not in on it. And I think it would have to be a whore. I think it would have to be they live body snatchers, Brian De Palma style. I think it would be this is am I pitching? I don't know. What would be happening is people would people are just going about their lives, whatever. And one day, Art Truman realizes his friend is acting strange. And throughout the course of the film, realizes that his friend has now been fired from the show

and he's been replaced by an AI approximation. And they're all there to just train the AI. Because once the AI is trained, each of them can get fired one by one. And maybe they're getting murdered if we want to make it horror. They can get fired one by one and replaced by AI approximations of themselves. And it exists in perpetuity i like that so exist in perpetuity yeah no royalties no royalties yeah and and i love that yeah it's just like and they never get older

right and uh yeah you can do anything to the ai like they never get sick they don't die right um the truman is gradually realizing that they're not aging around him exactly and that you know and and that he is going to be discarded soon once the ai is fully trained oh that's the realization that he has to yeah yeah he's going to be discarded but that's a different movie entirely maybe i should write it i love that i like that that's great yeah i really like that um i i do think that the idea of leaving the artificial world would have to play out very differently. And the modern day version would just have to be like much harder and scarier to try to leave everyone. I think he would die.

He would really die. Yeah. Or cease to exist. Or we would think he died and then we would see some glimmer that maybe he's alive. Or there would be some mystery where he gets to the, he opens up the door and you don't know what he's going to find out there i mean if we didn't know like what's going on in the world outside there christoph's lines about the world outside of here is the real hell and you need to stay here would ring very differently and there would be kind of a fun mystery to that right we really are shown a version of the real world that's quite normal any all signs we have

of it people are eating they're at bars they having fun. Guys in the bathtub having a great time. Yeah, like I guess my question is, this movie makes much more sense to us now. It just makes sense. We see it as like, oh, this makes sense because it follows like the culture that came after it. What did people think of it? Like, why did this exist in 1998? What was it satirizing? What was it making?

I mean, when they started it, there was no reality TV and it was just supposed to be, here's a fun premise for a paranoid thriller. A guy gradually realizes the world around him is fake and he's being filmed all the time. Well, that's not the first time that's ever been represented. Like, there was a Twilight Zone episode where it turns out everyone's faking, but it's

not a reality TV show. And there have been science fiction stories where somebody realizes they're in a constructed world and everybody around them is acting. But it's not the same. I think it could be commentary on fame, but also commentary on the problem of man and a God and free will and a Garden of Eden story or a Lucifer story. I love this movie. I love that you could read that into it. I love it.

I love this movie. Lucifer was like an angel, like God's favorite guy. And then he got proud and he got cast away from heaven. So it's Natasha McElhaw and it is Satan? No, no. I kind of think that you just persuaded me that she is. I think that she's pride and Truman is Satan. Truman is Lucifer because Lucifer started as like God's favorite, like got the top angel,

like his number one dude. And then he got proud and thought he was better than God. Not Adam being cast out of the, or walking out of the, that'd be a fun twist in the Garden of Eden. He just decides to leave.

Yeah. If I don't see you later. Eve would have a great time. Not having to wash his skid marks out of the fig leaf. Yeah. Very uncomfortable being naked all the time. That's not a scenario that I considered in the Garden of Eden, I'll be honest. It never occurred to me.

Adam just left? No, the skid marks. Oh, skid marks on the fig leaf, yeah. I mean, I guess I see it. It makes sense. Yeah, yeah. One other thing that I think would have to be different if this happened now is I think there's no puppet master pulling the strings. I think we

just like the world we live in now part of what feels like urgent and scary about our politics or about like media or how social media works is the very idea that there's no one who's actually in charge and there are no guardrails so maybe if it's now you know the kristoff character he dies or he goes away or he's replaced by an ai or a machine at some point and i think the kind of driving momentum would have to be what happens to this world when there's not a producer who's in charge and has a vision. 2001, A Truman Odyssey. That's right. Put hell in charge. Yes.

That's it. That's the one. Nailed it. Okay. True or false. We're going to finish off with a usual round of true or false. I read a series of quotes or plot points in the movie. You tell me whether that statement is true or false, whether a series of quotes or plot points in the movie you tell me whether that

statement is true or false whether you agree with it or not uh this one is laura linney one of the first lines in the movie for me there is no difference between a public life and a private life false false yeah i think false although she was describing the trajectory the way things are going for people on tv which i think is is true in that sense uh this truman says at one point maybe i'm losing my mind but it feels like the whole world revolves around me somehow true i felt that way true yeah yeah sometimes it does it's amazing that it revolves around all three of us that's just a wild coincidence body problem uh okay true or false um this is okay no emmerich when he's on the dock with him says who hasn't dreamed of being somebody but instead of asking you if that's true or false i'm going to ask you

what i think his message was which is that we all think we desire celebrity but possessing it would actually be a terrible curse i agree with that i think that i think that it would be absolutely hell to be like actually surveilled all the time. Like Britney Spears circa the early aughts. Nobody seems to come out well out of it. No. Hilary Duff. That's the only one. I think we miscategorize Here's my, this is going to be my pedantic

take. Do it. I think we miscategorize ambition as an intellectual or higher level desire when in fact it is a base and primitive desire and it is a desire from big more great take up space sure take up win get maximizing it's a simple i don't think it's maximizing and we point our intellect and our logic and our story in one direction or another based on talent or enjoyment or opportunity, whatever it might be. But the motive is the thing. And some people have more of it. And I think some of the most tragic

reality TV people or people that become famous for bad reasons are people whose ambition far exceeds their talents. And there's nothing to be done. Yeah. True or false, it would be really fun to get an interview on Sea Haven tonight. Who hasn't dreamed of getting an interview I would love that hit.

That sounds great. That sounds fun. Yeah. True or false, if the most beautiful person you have ever met drags you to a remote beach in the middle of the night

and they say, we have so little time, they don't want me talking to you, the correct move is to kiss them before they can elaborate. I think the answer is going to be different if you're a man or a woman here that's fair who are you with what's the

gender of the person you're with uh for me it would be a man and i would probably kick him okay that seems smart yeah yeah this movie also suffers from another thing that the matrix suffers from which is um i can't explain it i can't explain it try for five seconds try for five goddamn seconds why why are you not no time to, I can't explain it. I can't explain it. Try for five seconds. Try for five goddamn seconds. Why are you not? No time to explain. No time to explain. You can't understand The Matrix until you see it for yourself.

Tell me. We're all computers plugged into a giant thing. This is a reality. This is a simulation. You're on a television show. You know that television show you watch? You're in one. You're in one of those.

This is a big, giant dome. Go in one direction and don't stop because you'll hit the end of the dome. I got to go. My name is Sylvia so-and-so and this is where I'm from. Don't listen. She didn't do it very good. She sucks in that moment.

You know who did do the job of explaining it? The guy who pops out of the Christmas present? Yes. I was actually pretty sick. You're on television. True or false from Sylvia.

Everybody knows everything you do. They're pretending. Everybody's pretending. It's fake. It's all for you. That's i'd sometimes it does feel like that that's what manners are everyone's just pretend they there's a agreed upon set of rules that we are like okay this isn't naturally how we act i don't agree with that you don't i don't you naturally like no i do not think the app the

opposite of what you would do naturally is not necessarily fake. No, I don't think manners. I think it's streamlines like it takes a behavior and it tweaks it. So it's like this is how we're all behaving. You would behave somewhere adjacent to this. But that but but this gets so what I have made a choice. My choice is I just because I'm being polite is not less real. It is the disciplined choice to try to present myself in a way to have a better interaction with you is not

fake. Okay. I guess I guess a better way to put it is like, like HR speak like you're in you're in a meeting and people are talking about like, you know, some deliverables and like things that people don't normally you wouldn't ever write that down in an email to your mom. Like, aren't there things that you would never say at work that you say in front of people that you're more comfortable with? Of course. Okay. So there you are. There it is. It's like, there's a level of artifice to the way I definitely don't agree. I'm just, I'm on terror. I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I agree. What are you two talking about? I have no idea.

There's a public version of you. There's a work version of you. There's a family version of you. And hopefully they're all pretty close to each other. But there are things that you would say in front of your partner that you would never say in front of your coworker. So this is what I'm saying is I, there is a work version of you. There's a home version of you. There's a partner version of you.

Everyone's relation, the voice they use within their couple. Right. Like we all have a voice we use when we're just alone with our partners. It's a crazy voice. It's completely none of us have ever heard each other use that voice. Right. That doesn't mean this voice is fake. Just because there's a voice that is reserved for a certain context that is natural and

freeing that you'd be ashamed or embarrassed to display in front of others doesn't mean the other voices you use that are more measured or control are fake. They're just different. You're hiding certain parts and you're revealing other parts. I didn't say fake, but it's like you're not ever showing your entire self to anybody at any given time. Of course not. Of course not. Okay. So there's a level of, okay, never mind. Okay, so we're saying that one is true. Moving on. True or false? True or false,

if you ever discover that your world is an elaborate conspiracy to trap you and you decide to break free, you should bring along the fake spouse who was in on it from the beginning. I'm going to say true because every road trip needs a co-pilot. Hmm.

It is interesting. He never tries alone till the very end. And he brings Laura Linney knowing that she was in on this from the beginning. It's very confusing that in the first time we see him try to find, like, he had this interaction with her, Natasha, a decade earlier or whatever, some length of time. And we know that they've been married for at least five years or they've been together for at least five years. And the first thing he's doing, he's calling fucking the directory assistants

for names in Fiji. Like that's how little work he'd done up until that point. Sort of embarrassing, Truman. True or false, in any marital dispute, a great way to break the tension, a little product placement, a little ad read. Yes. Yeah, no, I think that's right. Absolutely. Actually, that's a podcaster's

trick that we don't give up easily, but it works every time. I think once I think that actually, sometimes when you're in a little tense moment, the best thing you can do is just start saying restaurants. Yeah. Just get let's get out of this. But you know what I love? I love this Chinese restaurant. And then all of a sudden you're talking about dinner. Yeah. And it's actually real. It works. Oh yeah.

What do you, you know what? Can we have green dragon for dinner? Cause that's his favorite place. And he's always like, oh, okay, fine. We're not fighting anymore. Yes. We're getting Chinese. This is some good tips actually.

Yeah. Okay. True or false. This is a Jim Carrey quote he gave a few years later to a vanity fair quote. That's what I see as the ultimate lesson of the Truman Show. When that false life is given up, when what everybody else wants from you and of

you is given up, then you walk into the everything. You become the everything. There's no limitations anymore. What is he talking about? I don't know, but it's true. I agree. Jim, I agree. It sounds like something Jared Leto would say, honestly. I can hear the giant beard that I'm sure he had grown for that interview.

That's a beautiful notion that we never see what's on the other side of the dome because it's everything. That's true. The world is everything. I like that. Yeah. There is a little twist in that quote where he's like, people want so much from you. And it's like, I think we're talking about Jim Carrey now. I don't think we're talking about Truman Burbank anymore. I'm always talking about Jim Carrey now. I don't think we're talking about Truman Burbank anymore. I'm always talking about Jim Carrey. Did you know on set they were not allowed to use lines from

other Jim Carrey movies? True was told not to say, alrighty then. Honestly, good fucking rule. Give that guy a break. That is a good rule for sure. Okay, true and false. Last one. Famous line from Kristoff. We accept the reality of the world with which we are presented.

It's as simple as that. True. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Pals, this was great. This was so fun. I had such a great time. It was a good one.

Thank you for coming on. Yeah, thank you. Offline Movie Club is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Max Fisher. It's produced by Emma Illich-Frank. Mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis, with audio support from Kyle Segland and Vasilis Vitopoulos. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, and Adrienne Hill for production support.

Listen to me, Max. There's no more truth outside of the studio than there is in here. It's the same lies. I gotta run to daycare, guys. It's the same deceit. That was good. That was fun, yeah. It was fun. I mean, am I being real? Am I being fake? I don't know.

I don't know. I'm just being polite. Who knows? That's the thing. I don't know either. I don't know. But my point is that our polite selves, I guess all I'm just being polite. Who knows? That's the thing. I don't know either. I don't know. But my point is that our polite selves, I guess all I'm just getting at is that our polite selves, our polite selves are us.

That if you spend eight hours a day being your polite self.