Offline with Jon Favreau - James Talarico Wants to Fight with Love

Episode Date: November 15, 2025

Is there anything wrong with Democratic leadership being so devoutly…secular? Jon sits down for a conversation with Texas State Representative James Talarico, who put becoming an ordained minister on hold to run for US Senate. They discuss how genuine connection is the only road toward persuasion in our divided world, whether James can flip a Senate seat on a platform of loving thy neighbor, and how Republicans are trying to knock him off a pedestal with OnlyFans headlines. Plus: why Democrats should take responsibility for the growth of Christian nationalism.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Listen to business history wherever you get your podcasts. I always joke that being a middle school teacher is great preparation for politics. But it's actually true because when I was trained to be a teacher, I was trained to always take responsibility for what happened in my classroom. So if my kids were acting up, it wasn't their fault because they're kids, they're middle schoolers. It's my fault for not having structure in the classroom. If they're not learning, that's my fault because God didn't make junk. Every kid can learn. Every kid has incredible potential. It was my job as the teacher to help them realize that. And that training has been so helpful for politics because I always

take responsibility, either me or my party. The reason I say all that is because this Christian nationalism, this toxic theology, this toxic political movement that's growing, I think that we have responsibility here. We have not provided a healthy alternative. And so young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there's not a healthy option before them. And that's on us. I'm John Favreau, and you just heard from the this week's guest James Tala Rico, a state representative in Texas who's now running for the U.S. Senate. But before we get to that, here's a story you might have missed this week.

A few days ago, Donald Trump called a 30-year-old White House staffer into the Oval Office and offered him a new job as a top lawyer at the agency responsible for managing all the federal government's buildings, purchases, and technology. So who cares, right? Why is this a story? Well, the 30-year-old in question is a former right-wing podcaster named Paul Ingrossia who admitted to some Republican colleagues last year that he has a, quote, Nazi streak. He also said that every holiday celebrating Black Americans, quote, needs to be eviscerated, that you should, quote, never trust a Chinaman or an Indian, that, quote, we need competent white men in positions of leadership,

and that, quote, the founding fathers were wrong that all. men are created equal, we need to reject that part of our heritage. Ingrossia made the comments in a group chat that one of the Republican operatives on the chain leaked to Politico, but it's not as if his views were all that secret. In 2023, he tweeted that the purpose of education should be, quote, elevating the high IQ section of your demographics. So, you know, basically young men, straight white men. A few months later, he tweeted that, quote, exceptional white men are not only the builders of Western civilization, but are the ones most capable of appreciating the fruits of our heritage. All of this was ultimately enough to sink Ingracia's Senate confirmation after several

Republicans took the rare step of opposing a Trump nominee. But it wasn't enough for Stephen Miller or J.D. Vance or Trump himself, who granted Ingracia a personal audience in the Oval to reward him with the new role. It goes without saying that the president of the United States doesn't typically do this kind of thing for most mid-level personnel matters. Ingracia isn't the only Republican official who's been letting his Reich flag fly in a group chat. You might remember the state party leaders who texted about loving Hitler, lying Jews, and sending their opponents to the gas chamber, another leaked chat that led to multiple apologies, resignations, and condemnations from other Republicans, except, of course, for J.D. Vance, who dismissed people's concerns as,

quote, pearl clutching and said that, quote, kids do stupid things. But the kids in question, most of whom are actually professionals in their 30s, don't seem to think what they're saying and doing is all that stupid. And their openly racist, anti-Semitic, anti-democratic, anti-American worldview is a virus that seems to be spreading throughout this generation of Republican staffers and media figures who've come of age in the Trump era. One writer has made news over the last week by saying that he believes 30 to 40 percent of the Gen Z Republicans who work in Washington are fans of Nick Fuentes, a white nationalist streamer with half a million subscribers who said that women, quote, want to be raped, blacks need to be imprisoned, and Jews are warmongers

who, quote, must be absolutely annihilated when we take power. The writer who made the claim, about 30 to 40 percent of Gen Z Republicans, wasn't some lib or never-Trumper, but Rod Dreher, an Orthodox Christian so conservative that he lives in Hungary as a big fan of. of authoritarian Victor Orban. Dreher made his observation after a trip to D.C., where he spent the weekend talking to as many Gen Z Republican staffers as he could, a trip where he also stopped by the vice president's home

and sat down with Orban and his friend J.D. Vance, who he said he warned about the threat Fuentes and his worldview posed to the country, the Republican Party, and Vance's own political future. Dreher didn't say how Vance responded, but he went on to write about how the young Christians and traditional Catholics and Republican politics are now, quote, neck deep in anti-Semitism. He asked one Gen Z conservative,

why so many are fans of a white nationalist like Fuentes? And the person told him that even if they don't agree with everything, Fuentes says or the way he says it, they like his rage and willingness to violate taboos because, quote, they just want to tear everything down. The reason for this, according to what Dreher heard from a lot of the young Republicans he spoke to, is that this generation of conservatives,

especially young men, feel hopeless about their career prospects and their ability to buy a home, get out of debt, get married, and have kids. They blame the elites, the left, and increasingly democracy itself, with one young man asking Dreher a question he took as genuine. So what's wrong with fascism?

I'm telling you all this because I don't want us to live in a world where we look back at the Trump era as the good old days. It now seems clear that what's coming after MAGA is much worse, a younger, more extreme, more nihilistic movement that believes itself to be at war with not only the left or the old version of the Republican Party, but the founding ideal of America is a multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy dedicated to the proposition that we're all created equal. I think that those of us who still believe in that better version of America, aren't really sure how to fight for it right now, but we better figure it out.

And I don't think it's just a matter of coming up with the right policies or the right messaging or even the most charismatic candidates. I think it's much deeper than that. The anger and despair and nihilism that Drer heard in D.C. isn't limited to the Gen Z right. It may be expressed in different forms and to different degrees, usually without so much outright bigotry. But it exists among many people on the left and many people who've given up on politics altogether, here in America and throughout the world. And it's especially potent among a younger generation who are having trouble seeing a future for themselves, who can't seem to escape the loneliness and emptiness they feel while staring at screens that keep

tempting us with the illusion of connection and fulfillment. One answer to this problem, I think, is a political movement that's built on a moral foundation, one that's rooted in the inherent value of every human being, one that calls on its followers to love those who are different and hold different views, not as a way to erase those differences, but to remind us of our common humanity by forging genuine human connection, as messy and difficult and frustrating as that can be. If this kind of politics sounds like it has spiritual and even religious overtones, that was my intention. I'm certainly not saying that the answer to right-wing Christian nationalism is liberal Christianity or really any kind of organized religion or religious

movement. But it's not lost on me that at the core of every major religion, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism is some version of the command that we should love each other like we wish to be loved, treat each other like we wish to be treated, see each other as equals worthy of dignity and respect. And it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that so many millions of people over thousands of years in far-flung corners of the earth have somehow all found their way to this truth. There's another politically active young Christian, 36 years old, who doesn't work in Washington just yet, but is currently applying for a job there. He's also studying to become a minister. And surprise, surprise, he's a progressive Democrat.

James Talariko is running to be the next U.S. senator from Texas, but he's already become a national political figure who's inspired Democrats across the country and won praise from the likes of Joe Rogan and Barack Obama. Now, the more cynical view is that it shrewd for Democrats to run an aspiring pastor who speaks openly about his faith because that will somehow have crossover appeal to more religiously inclined independence and Republicans. Maybe. Maybe not. But I think that view misses something even more important about what James is trying to do. At a time when politics, along with the algorithmically driven platforms through which we process politics, keeps incentivizing more rage and cruelty and despair.

Maybe the antidote really is fighting back with conviction and empathy and trite as it may sound to our cynical ears. Love. That's certainly what James believes. And it's certainly what I want to believe, too. Here's our conversation. I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. James Tellerico, welcome.

Thanks for having me. Good to be with you in person. It's so nice to meet you. You too. You too. I've heard so much about you. I've been following you for a long time now. Same. Start with some news of the day. You said the deal to end the government shutdown wasn't a compromise. It was surrender. I certainly wasn't a fan either. But I guess my question is, if you were in the Senate, like how much longer would you have held out knowing that Donald Trump clearly has a higher tolerance for inflicting cruelty on people? people than we do. Well, I'm a proud Texas Democrat, but I already have a religion and I already

have a sports team. So I have no problem sharing hard truths about our party. And as a Texas Democrat, I'm always working with a losing hand. You know, I'm in a Republican-dominated legislature, and my job tends to be losing in the best way possible. But national Democrats in this situation had a lot of leverage to fight for the people of this country. And I felt that they gave up that leverage far too easily. And, you know, Donald Trump certainly has a higher tolerance for inflicting pain on people. I agree. But he's also very sensitive to other people's opinions about him. We know that's true about Donald Trump. And we saw that he had hit a record low in his approval ratings because of his actions in this government shutdown. Literally,

taking food out of the mouths of hungry children to fund tax breaks for his billionaire donors. And so the fact that national Democrats let him off the hook and didn't get anything in return, to me just feels like political and legislative malpractice. Do you think maybe they should have held out for like another couple weeks, another month? I think we should have held out until we got what we wanted, which was not only reinstating the snap cuts and making sure that hungry kids and working parents had enough to eat, but also making sure that health care premiums weren't going to skyrocket for millions of Texans and millions of Americans. That's our job as Democrats is to fight for working people. And if we're not doing that, then we shouldn't

wonder why voters don't trust us at the ballot box. So, you know, I very much look at these positions as jobs. We're being hired to be the people's voice and the people's champion in the halls of power. And if we're not doing that, then we should find work elsewhere. So a growing number of House Democrats have called on Chuck Schumer to step down as leader. A number of your fellow Democratic Senate candidates have said they want support Schumer as leader. If they win, would you? I think this problem is a lot bigger than Chuck Schumer. I think it's a lot bigger than any one senator.

And if we want to just try to put the blame all on one person, I think we're missing the bigger picture, which is that our party has forgotten how to fight. at the national level. I do think that national Democrats could learn a thing or two from Red State Democrats because we have to figure out how to use every tool in our toolbox to fight for our people, to fight for our values. And we develop a thick skin and we develop certain muscles in the halls of power. I think you're going to see in 2026 Red State Democrats, Texas Democrats starting to step up into these leadership positions and hopefully steering our party in a direction where we can fight effectively and actually win for working people all over

this country. And I honestly think that's the discussion we need to be having. There's a temptation to find one person and say, that's the problem. Let's get rid of that. That senator or that minority leader and all of this will be solved. I don't think that's true. And I do think we've got to have a conversation about how the party as a whole at the national level has to change if we're going to transform this country so it works for regular people again. One thing that every Democrat, even some Republicans, even some people in the White House seem to agree on coming out of last week's election is that life in America isn't affordable and the government needs to do something about it. What ideas do you have on this issue that you'd want to fight for if you get to Washington?

Yeah, I do agree. That was the big lesson across. all these different races, all these different kinds of candidates, too. It's that affordability is the primary pain point for Americans and for Texans. So I've served for four terms in the state legislature. I've actually passed a lot of bills as a Democrat in a Republican-dominated legislature. And a lot of those bills have been focused on bringing down costs. Obviously, grocery store prices are a real pain point for people. But I don't think we're talking enough about the structural aspect.

of our economy that prevent working class, middle class people from getting ahead. So the cost of housing, the cost of health care, the cost of child care in Texas, I don't know what it is in the rest of the country, but in Texas, child care is now more expensive than college. So for young working families with young kids, this is pricing them out of the American dream. And so I've passed bills to bring down costs in all of those areas. I want to do that at the federal level. There's even more that we could do in Washington to start to restructure the economy so that working people, middle-class people, can finally build a life, build wealth for themselves and their families. Housing seems like one of the biggest costs that has been a pain point for people now for

almost a decade, whether you're not able to buy a home, whether you can't afford your rent, young people thinking they're never going to be able to buy a home. Right. And they're not wrong. Right. I mean, I saw a staff that 90% of baby boomers went on to earn more money than their parents. For millennials like me, it's 50%. It's even lower for Gen Z. And owning your first home is such a key part of that dream.

And there's kind of a sequence because if you can't buy a house, then it's hard to start a family, hard to have kids, hard to get rooted in a community, hard to build wealth. So these things build on each other. and if we're robbing young people from the ability to afford their first home, you're really locking them out of the American dream. And I don't think older generations understand the damage and the harm that that's doing to young people all over this country. What do you guys been doing in Texas about that? Because I do know that it's easier to build homes in Texas than it is, at least here in California. Yeah. Well, a few things. I actually just passed a bill a few months ago in the Texas legislature to allow for single stair housing. This is kind of wonky.

This is a form of housing, many times condos that's very popular in other countries. But for some reason, we have this outdated building code in Texas and a lot of other states that doesn't allow for these smaller housing units with just one staircase. It's usually the blame is put on fire safety, but all these other countries have figured out how to keep people safe and also build these smaller units. And so we just repealed that part of the code. And Democrats were excited because it was going to allow. for more young people to afford a home, either whether they're renting or whether they're buying

a condo. And then Republicans loved it because we were repealing regulations. And so it was kind of this match made in heaven where we had bipartisan buy-in on a housing bill in Texas. And then in the Austin area in central Texas, we went through some dramatic zoning reform, which makes it easier to build housing in the urban core. And Austin is one of the few metro areas in the whole country that's seen rents decline in recent months. And so, So some of these solutions are right there in front of us. It's just going to require building the political will to actually get them done. So being from Texas, spending a lot of time in South Texas, you've seen both the successes and failures of our immigration system up close.

Of the many injustices committed by the Trump administration, what has been most horrifying and enraging to me are the mass detentions and deportations and outright violence targeted to people who merely look like they might. be immigrants or are peacefully protesting or are just bystanders. I also think that the one reason Trump was put in a position to do this is because of our collective failure as a country and as a party over decades to actually fix our immigration system. What did that failure look like to you in Texas during the Biden years? And if you become a senator who's in a position to do something about it, what would you do? So I'm an eighth generation Texan. My family's been in the state since it was Mexico. In fact, my family's from South Texas. My mom grew up in Laredo right there on the Texas-Mexico border. I feel like Texans understand immigration better than other folks across the country, both its challenges and its benefits. What I've said is that our southern borders should be like our front porch. There should be a giant welcome mat out front and there should be a lock on the door. You can do both of those things at the same time. Most people in this country,

most people in Texas are pro-immigrant and pro-security, but they really feel like they've been failed by both parties because they've had one party, particularly in the Biden era, that was pro-immigrant and seemed to not be very concerned about security and seemed to have a high tolerance for chaos. I remember talking to my colleagues who served border communities, and they were talking about just the incredible toll that that policy on our southern border was taking on people in South Texas and all along the Texas-Mexico border. And it was unsafe, both for Native-born Americans, but also for migrants and for immigrants. People also see from the Republican Party folks who seem to be pro-security, but very anti-immigrant, right?

Donald Trump is literally sending masked men in unmarked vehicles to kidnap people off our streets, tearing parents from their children, waiting in school pickup lines, lurking in hospital waiting rooms. I mean, I think what we need is finally a political party, and I hope it's ours, that can both welcome immigrants who are coming here to contribute, to live the American dream, to make us richer and stronger, and also keep folks out who mean to do us harm and ensure that there is an orderly process. I really believe the Democratic Party should be the anti-chaos party. We should be the ones trying to make government work for people. And immigration is a classic example where we have failed as a party. And if we hope to earn people's trust and their respect going forward, we've got to rethink how we approach this issue.

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This is an important thing to do. I've had to remove some personal information from the Internet, and then you have to check back in every once in a while and do it again. This is why Delete Me is really helpful for this. Yeah, it's very good service. Delete me, bro. That's, there you go. That's it. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to join delete me.com slash offline and use promo code offline at checkout. The only way to get 20% off off is to go to join delete me.com slash offline and enter code offline at checkout. That's join delete me.com slash offline code offline. So you become something of a national figure because you've impressed a lot of people outside of Texas, a lot of Democrats, based on your ability to speak about faith and how it informs your politics. You went on Joe Rogan, something that not many Democrats have done. He tells you to run for president. Barack Obama says he's impressed with you. You've got a New York Times headline asking if you're the savior the Democrats have been waiting for. Meanwhile, you're just trying to win a Senate primary in Texas. Correct. Does all that national attention make it easier, harder? Like, how are you processing it all? Well, I already have a savior. And I think this is a problem in our politics where we hope that one candidate or one politician is going to fix all of our problems. And it's a terrible way to approach politics, one because it robs you of agency, right? If you can put all your hopes and dreams into one person, then you don't have to do much. When in reality, I am one small part of a solution, but it's going to take all of us, whether we are candidates, whether we're podcasters, whether we are ordinary citizens, it's going to take all of us. transforming this broken political system and making it work for all of us again. But I will say that

I'm thankful we've got folks interested in Texas because Texas, I think, will flip in this upcoming election. And once we do that, both with the help of everyone in Texas and our honorary Texans in other states, it will fundamentally change the politics of this country forever. And so I think this is the most high stakes Senate race in the country. Not only does it hold the key for winning a Senate majority. But it does hold the key, I think, for saving this American experiment. And if we can figure out how to win in Texas, it'll mean that the Democratic Party has figured out how to win America. And I am so thankful and so proud to be part of that effort. And I'm really excited that people around the country want to help. Yeah, I think a lot of people had hope for Texas. And then over the

last couple cycles, it seemed like it was slipping away. Yeah. I think, look, people don't quite get the national election, like a presidential election, the electorate's different than a midterm election. Beto came, what, within like 200,000? Yeah, right? Two and a half points, a couple hundred thousand votes. That's right. How are you looking at the strategy? I know you're in a primary right now, but everyone in Texas right now, obviously, you know, it's, like I said, it's become tougher in presidential elections the last couple cycles, but how are you looking at the state strategically on how to flip it this time around? Yeah, I think people are sleeping on Texas. I really do. you zoom out over the last 15 years, statewide elections have gotten more competitive. I remember

when I was growing up in Texas, Republicans would win statewide elections by 25, 30 points. Now they consistently win by single digits. You mentioned Beto O'Rourke coming within two and a half points in the last Trump midterm. We're about to have the second Trump midterm. Feels like we've been in the Trump era forever, right? My whole life. But this is the only, this is only the second Trump midterm we've ever had. People also forget that in the next election in 2020, Joe Biden only lost Texas by five points. It feels like we've memory hold that stat. If Republicans were five points away from winning California, they would break the bank, right? They would go all in, right? They have that killer instinct. The Democratic Party doesn't always have. But I think it's going to require

a couple things to win in 2026 in Texas. It's going to require a candidate who can inspire and energize people. That's what I'm trying to do all over the state. But it's also going to require a grassroots army to meet voters where they're at, whether it's on their phones or at their doors or on the phone or write in postcards. It's going to take thousands of Texans stepping up and doing their part to win the state and engaging with their neighbors who aren't with us yet, which is not always easy to do. But I am so excited that we've already had 8,000 Texans go to our website and sign up to volunteer. This is without us asking. These are just folks who are so fired up about winning Texas that they are taking the initiative to sign up to knock

doors and make phone calls and write postcards. And then some of them have already started their own volunteer meetups all over the state. In fact, something I'm really proud of is during this snap crisis where we have families in Texas going hungry. Our volunteer teams have taken it upon themselves to go to food banks all over the state. And they're organizing not just to win an election, but to serve people, which is, I mean, we forget that's what politics is supposed to be about, it's supposed to be about helping others and loving our neighbors. And I'm, I'm so thankful that we are building that team together. And I will just say, anybody who's listening, if they want to join, they can sign up at jamestlerico.com and join this volunteer army, because it's going to take

all of us to pull off this feat of winning Texas. So I work for someone whose career in national politics began in a similar way, suddenly get launched out of a rocket there, a national scene. And the strategy that opponents used against Obama once he was put on a pedestal was to knock him off the pedestal, saying he's not what you think he is. You're already getting some of this. There was an Axios story this week about you following back some women who followed on Instagram and happened to be only fans, models, and escorts, even though you wouldn't really know that from their accounts. My reaction was, so who cares? Like, what's wrong with that? Of course, the intended suggestion is that this is somehow inconsistent with your Christian faith.

From a campaign perspective, how have you thought about handling this and just this kind of stuff that's certainly coming? Well, I very much believe in fighting back when you feel like your neighbors are under attack. And we welcome the support of all Texans, regardless of how they make their money. And I didn't know what these women did on their own time, but I'm not going to judge them for it. I'm also not going to participate in an effort to smear them for clickbait. And that's exactly the kind of senator I'm going to be if I'm elected. And I will just tell you, I feel like Texans are not interested in this kind of media junk. They want a senator who's going to bring down costs, who's going to clean up government, who's going to take on this broken political

system. And I think they're going to see right through these media games. Yeah, and I didn't realize your campaign was saying this, that it's like you go on Joe Rogan, suddenly a whole bunch of new people know who you are, they then follow you on Instagram. You're a nice person. You follow them back and say, thanks. Well, it's not even not being a nice person. It's how new media works. Right. Yeah, exactly. You engage. Well, we, again, as a state rep in Texas, we have built one of the largest Instagram followings of any national Democrat. And we've done that by collaborating with big accounts and working with them to get our message out. And so we follow back all kinds of people. I mean, actors and musicians and athletes. I even follow back like,

a really popular bulldog, which I don't know much about, but you know what, they share our content and they're helping to get the message out. So I think this is also an example of how legacy media is just kind of clueless on what new media looks like and what it takes to win in this current environment. So you've talked about people wanting politics of love. Yeah. You've also talked about a few times in this conversation, people wanting Democrats to fight. Yes. What does fighting with love look like and sound like? Yeah. I feel like people think that these are two different things. I was born to a single mom who was working at a hotel in Austin. She met my birth father, a 21-year-old high school dropout who had a drinking problem.

And that drinking problem sometimes led to violence. And one night he became abusive again. But that night, my mother's love rose to meet it. And she packed all our stuff into her little Ford Escort. She drove me to the hotel where she worked. She begged the manager to let us stay in one of the room. until we found this little apartment in East Austin. And there wasn't room for a nursery, so I slept in a crib in her closet.

And she was so proud of that closet. She decorated it with toys and pictures. No one was going to tell her it wasn't a nursery. And to me, that's what love looks like. It is sometimes confrontational. It is sometimes aggressive. It does whatever it takes to stand up for the vulnerable. And so this idea that love is passive or love is weak or love is neutral,

doesn't align with what I've seen in my own life. It also doesn't align with what my faith teaches me. I started off this campaign with the Bible story of Jesus flipping over the tables in the temple. Because we oftentimes, whether you're Christian or not, whether you're religious or not, we all think of Jesus as this very gentle, nice guy, which he certainly was. But when his neighbors were under attack, when there were powerful people picking on vulnerable people, he didn't stay in his room and pray. He walked into the seat of power and he flipped over the tables of injustice. To me, I started off the campaign with that story because it exemplifies what love demands of us in these moments. And it doesn't demand passivity. It demands action. It demands

fighting back. And you can do that without dehumanizing your opponents. That is the critical line you can't cross over. In my faith, we're called to love our enemies. One, that acknowledges that you're going to have enemies. Right. If you speak truth to power, if you stand up for vulnerable people, you're going to run into opposition. You're going to run into opponents. But we're also called to love those opponents too, which is so hard to do. Again, as a Democrat in the Texas legislature, I struggle with this. I'm not saying it's easy.

But if we can get to that point where we're not just fighting for our neighbors, we're also fighting for our enemies, I think that's when you see true transformation. It's what I try to do. And it's what I want this campaign to be about to is fighting back, but rooting that in a deep love for our neighbors, for our communities, and also for our enemies. these two. Offline is brought to you by Mando. You know, sometimes you stink and...

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or because they think politicians who speak about faith only do so as a way to appeal to religious voters or conservatives. A few months ago on the show, I interviewed Ross Douthit about his book that argues everyone should be religious. And I was surprised

by the reaction from some few listeners who weren't necessarily annoyed that I was speaking to a conservative. I thought that might be the problem. They were annoyed because I expressed openness to a belief in God and Jesus and possibly an afterlife. And it was funny because I heard people talk about how Democrats look down on people and faith and stuff. And I'm

like, well, I'm sitting here. I have this conversation. And I was like, well, I'd like to believe there's an afterlife. I don't know. I've had my doubts. It's a mystery. Someone was like, I don't know if I can trust your analysis with that kind of crazy talk. And so it kind of took me back. But like, I think most non-religious Democrats don't feel that way. But what's, what's What's your experience, Ben, with how non-religious folks have reacted to you talking about faith so publicly? I have gotten my own pushback. And, you know, sometimes I get personally hurt by it because these are people in my party. These are my fellow Democrats and they're telling me to shut up about my sky daddy.

Right, yeah, that's one way to describe it. Yeah, no, that's the reaction. But then I, again, trying to find that place of love, I remember that organized religion has hurt a lot of people. there's a lot of religious trauma in this country, and it runs deep. And I want to be very sensitive to that. And I try when I talk about my faith, especially when I talk about faith in the public square, that I do so in the most inclusive way possible, where I'm not just including Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus, but also including atheists and agnostics, because I am called

to love all of my neighbors, regardless of how they pray or if they pray at all. And that's what I'm called to do as a Christian. And so I try to be as sensitive and as inclusive as I can because I understand how much harm our religious institutions have inflicted on people in this country. And I think that's where some of the pushback is coming from. So I think we just got to be very sensitive to that when we engage in this conversation. I know you grew up in a religious family. I've always been a religious person. And when you got to a point in politics where you had become so dejected and cynical that

you contemplated quitting, you didn't just lean on your faith. You made the decision to go to seminary and become a minister. What were you hoping to get from that experience when you made the decision? And what questions were you looking to answer? So my granddad was a Baptist preacher in South Texas. And he told me when I was real little that we follow a barefoot rabbi. That's how he called it. and that barefoot rabbi gave us two commandments, love God and love neighbor, because there is no love

of God without love of neighbor, is how he put it. And my church when I was growing up always really emphasized our love for our neighbors, the need to take our faith from the sanctuary to the streets to act, right, in the same way that labor organizers put their faith into action, the way civil rights marchers put their faith into action, the way farm workers put their faith into action. That was always the emphasis, which it's no wonder I went into public service, first as a public school teacher and then as a public official. It's all motivated by that commandment to love my neighbor as myself. I try to love my neighbor through public policy, making their life easier with lower child care costs, lower prescription drug costs, lower housing costs. But that work of loving my neighbor

is really difficult, especially in a place like the Texas legislature. And anyone who's engaged in politics, I'm sure you could also attest to this, that loving your neighbor can be very frustrating and very difficult and very disheartening. And that's what happened to me in my second term. It had been such a dark session, the most extreme abortion ban in the country, a permitless carry where anyone could carry a firearm without any kind of permit, an effort to whitewash our history curriculum and one of the worst voter suppression bills in modern American history.

All of that happened in that second session. So to be very honest, I started to lose faith in this American experiment. Was it even going to be possible for us to all live? together when we have such profound disagreements. And so I made the decision to go to seminary because I remembered that first commandment to love God. Those two commandments were given to us Christians because they sustain each other. The only way to love your neighbor is if you're loving that holy mystery where all of us come from, however you define it, whatever you call it. But loving the kind of the source where that underpins everything.

And then the only way to love God is to show it through your love for your neighbors by feeding the hungry, by healing the sick, by welcoming the stranger. But you've got to have both. And so for me, going to seminary was a way to balance out my life. It was a way of sustaining the love for my neighbors. And loving God through my seminary journey has been a true blessing. And it's why I can continue this sometimes difficult work. So my first formative political experience was attending. a Jesuit college. Yeah, I love Jesuits. I start, yeah, and it's funny because I started Holy Cross

as a Catholic who wasn't very religious. Sure. And I left feeling less Catholic but more religious. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, you know, the Jesuit emphasis on social justice, liberation theology. It's like really shaped my, not only my personal morality, but my politics. But I've always found the interplay between faith and politics tricky. Yes. And I always think of that line in Lincoln's second inaugural about the Civil War when he says, you know, both read the same Bible and prayed to the same God and each invokes his aid against the other. And like, where do you draw the line between using your faith to explain your political motivations? And using your faith to justify why you think your political agenda should be law, which I think, you know, the Christian right has done for some time in this country. And we think, okay, well, that's great that that's your religion. But why should that be our laws. Well, and you know, Pope Francis, I think, was a Jesuit and showed us what that looks like to put faith into action. And honestly, when he passed away, I was worried that we wouldn't have a Pope who did the same thing. I will just say, as a non-Catholic, how inspired I've been

by Pope Leo and how he's met this moment, particularly on immigration in this country. And I think he is such an example of how someone can use their faith in an inclusive way to stand up for all of our neighbors, particularly our vulnerable neighbors. We all bring our morality, our philosophies, our worldviews to our politics. And faith to me is no different. It's my why. It's why I do this work. And I feel like I owe it to my constituents and my future constituents, knock on wood, to explain my why. So they know not just my 12-point policy plan, but they know the worldview that underpins that, the values that underpin that. And that was true for Christians, you know, throughout American history, Dorothy Day, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Jimmy Carter, Mr. Rogers,

right? They all use their faith to propel the work they did out in the public square for all Americans, not just Christians. So I've always said that Christian nationalism is not Christian activism. These are two different things. One, Christian nationalism is dominating our neighbors. It is elevating our religious tradition over all the others. It is fundamentally an act of domination, not love. And so I think if our religious activism or our Christian activism is rooted in the teachings of Jesus, I think it leads us away from theocracy and toward democracy. Because democracy is, I think, fundamentally a very Christian form of government because it requires that we love all of our neighbors, not just our Christian neighbors, not just our religious neighbors, but all of our neighbors.

And that's why I fight so hard for democracy. And I believe. if this American experiment's going to survive, we desperately need a Christian commitment to democracy. And that, I feel like we don't always have. And it's one that I'm trying to cultivate in the church as well. In addition to being on the campaign trail, in addition to being in my public office, I spent a lot of time in Christian churches of all denominations across the state talking about these issues, because I think, you know, this sickness of Christian nationalism is only going to be healed within the church. That's where it comes from. And that's where it's it's going to be stopped. And so this has got to be a conversation that we're not just having

in state capitals or our national capital, but also in our Sunday school classes and in our church basements, because that's ultimately how we're going to defeat Christian nationalism once and for all. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This November, BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to reach out, check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones, and remind the people, your life that you're there. And if you could use a little extra support this season, BetterHelp is there for you. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of contact and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can

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At Ole Miss. So someone asked him about the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. And he said that, J.D. Vant said, that those who argue the Constitution requires a separation of church and state are lying. Oh. That it just prevents the establishment of a national religion. And then if you go back to the founding, several states had officially recognized churches. And it's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Establishment Clause that, quote,

kicked religion out of public spaces, which in his view was a huge mistake that we've been paying for ever since. What do you make of that? I mean, I think it's bad history. I also think it's bad theology, because again, I mentioned that my granddad was Baptist. So I come from a tradition that cherished

the separation of church and state. The first time that Jefferson ever used that phrase wall of separation between church and state, it was in a letter to the Danbury Baptist, because like any good politician, he was trying to speak their language. And Baptists and Protestant Christians in this country in particular really valued religious freedom and religious liberty and preventing the state, preventing the government from picking and choosing between faith traditions. And back then, it was really between different kinds of Christians.

Right. Right. Between Catholics and Protestants, Lutherans and Presbyterians and Methodists. And so we have to acknowledge that the separation of church and state doesn't just benefit the state. It also benefits the church. because once government and political power gets too cozy with religion, that's when we as a church lose our prophetic voice, our ability to speak truth to power, to call out government officials, which is a proud tradition we have in Christianity.

And so when I talk to my fellow Christians, I always try to emphasize how this benefits us to have this separation, to have this establishment clause and this free exercise clause in the First Amendment. And I think it's incredibly irresponsible for someone like J.D. Vance to try to blur the lines in this sacred boundary. So there's this big intramaga fight right now over whether the movement should embrace or at least tolerate white nationalist Nick Fuentes and his followers. Rod Dreher, who is a pal of J.D. Vance's who identifies as Orthodox Christian. He just wrote this long substack that he spent a lot of time in D.C. talking to young people working in Republican politics, and he estimates between 30 and 40 percent

are fans of Nick Fuentes. And he writes, quote, even young Christians, especially traditional Catholics, I learned, are neck deep in anti-Semitism. They even use it as a litmus test of who can and can't join their informal social groups. And he asked one of them what these Fuentes fans want, and they said, they don't have any demands. They just want to tear everything down. Scary stuff. Yeah. where do we what do we even begin to do about that in this country because it's you know it's starting to concentrate among a younger generation it is i do recognize in his writing this this nihil it's it was started off of cynicism it's become nihilism um and you know they've thrown the cloak of of christianity or catholicism over it um but it does feel it feels like something even more insidious and dangerous than whatever we've been going through with donald trump in the last decade which is bad enough So one, I think we have to recognize that this is not just a political problem. It is a spiritual problem. And again, for Christians to advocate for anti-Semitism, to me, does such violence to our tradition because Jesus was Jewish the day he was born all the way to the day he died. He was a Jewish rabbi who never talked about starting a new religion. And so our tradition grows out of Judaism. And we should have deep reverence and respect for that mother tradition of ours.

You know, I being a public school teacher, I always joke that being a middle school teacher is great preparation for politics. But it's actually true because when I was trained to be a teacher, I was trained to always take responsibility for what happened in my classroom. So if my kids were acting up, it wasn't their fault because they're kids, they're middle schoolers. It's my fault for not having structure in the classroom. If they're not learning, that's my fault because God didn't make junk.

every kid can learn. Every kid has incredible potential. It was my job as the teacher to help them realize that. And that training has been so helpful for politics because I always take responsibility, either me or my party. The reason I say all that is because this Christian nationalism, this toxic theology, this toxic political movement that's growing, I think that we have responsibility here. I'm an amateur gardener, and I know that if you have an unhealthy garden, weeds will grow. And so it is, I think, on us as not just Democrats, but those who love democracy, those who love Christianity or love their faith tradition, that we have not put up more of a fight in this public debate, that we have not provided a healthy alternative.

And so young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there's not a healthy option before them. And that's on us. It's why I try to talk about this, even if it's a little tricky, even if it makes some folks a little uncomfortable, like, unless I'm putting forward something that's healthier and more positive and I think more true to our tradition, then the Nick Fuentes of the world, the J.D. Vance's of the world, they're going to be the only voices out there. And that's what young people are going to gravitate to. So instead of, you know, pointing fingers at those figures on the other side, I think we've got to look in the mirror and figure out what are we not providing? What are we not doing? And how is that leading young people down

these really dark paths? And, you know, in the one direction is young people go down these dark paths. The other direction is, and you see this in all the data, that just people are becoming less religious in this country and have for this, you know, the decline of religiosity has happened now over several decades. We spoke earlier that I think one reason is sort of a general distrust of institutions, specifically religious institutions. You know, I think about the Catholic church covering up sexual abuse. But even if people aren't joining sort of organized religions, you know, you've talked about sort of this growing hunger to live lives with meaning and purpose. And yet, why do you think it doesn't lead people to be more, you know, personally faithful or

sort of seeking sort of some kind of a religious answer? Well, I do think we've seen an uptick since the pandemic of young people trying to rejoin religious communities. I think the key is how do young people remake religious institutions in their own image? How do we confront corruption with an organized religion? How do we confront abuse in organized religion and remake these institutions so that they serve people again? You know, the word religion literally means to religament, to reconnect us into one body. That oneness is kind of, the foundational truth underneath all religious traditions, that we're all connected, that I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper. And I think we need that now more than we've ever needed

it before. In some ways, we are conducting a real-time experiment on an entire generation of young people because throughout human history, we have always needed communities to wrestle with the big questions of life. What does it mean to be a human? What is evil? What is love? What is love demand of us, those are questions you're not going to struggle with at work, right? Those aren't questions you're going to struggle with in a political party or in an election cycle. And so we're missing communities where you can have these conversations about the most fundamental questions in our lives. And so it's no wonder that we have seen rates of anxiety and depression skyrocketing, not just among young people, but all people, because we're all living now in an incoherent universe

without a story that helps us make sense of our existence. And so at the same time, can have deep concern about organized religion and the harm it does, but also know that there's a baby in that bathwater. And if we throw out the whole thing, we're throwing out something so fundamental to the human experience. And so the reason I went to seminary was to try to figure out how we could rebuild faith communities that are healthy and nurturing and affirming and help people be. more loving. Because if, you know, Jesus says that you can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears. And so you don't even have to wonder if it's good theology. Just look at what it produces.

And if it produces more hate and more division and less love, then it's not good. It's a pretty simple test. And so I have seen young people at my seminary and seminaries all over the country, at churches all over the country, stepping up to ask these questions and try to answer these questions. And that gives me a lot of hope for where religion and Christianity in particular are heading in this country. This is like my political brain speaking, but I hadn't been to Mass in a long time and I went this last summer and I remember sitting there in Mass and I was like, no wonder people don't come here, new people don't come here. It's so wrote and like boring. And I'm like, you kind of need like some political minds here to be like, because it's like an organizing thing.

Yeah. The idea is to bring people into the church. I remember, you know, I grew up in a suburb of Boston and like that, that church versus sort of the church that was a part of when I went to Holy Cross, which was Jesuit and social justice and all that. But the church I went to as a kid, you'd go in there and they'd make you feel guilty for not going to church more. But that was sort of the message of the mass, you know, like, oh, I don't see you on Christmas, but I don't see you the rest. And I do wonder if there just needs to like, I mean, you talked about this, having this fight from within the sort of these religious institutions that you, you know, it's just like a political movement or an organization. You want people, you want it to be joyful and meaningful to join and to wrestle with those questions that you were talking about. And, you know, I always think about the sermon on the Mount, which is probably Jesus's most famous sermon. Radical. Yeah. And I encourage everyone, whether you're religious or not, to go back and read it.

Because I think what's interesting is that it doesn't take place in a church, literally, or a synagogue in Jesus's time. He literally calls people to a mountainside. And in the sermon, he points to the birds of the air and the lilies of the field as examples of how we should live. And the word church in Greek means to call out. It means to be called out of your culture, called out of your of your economy, called out of your political system, called out of your your own biases and prejudices. is to see the world anew. And so if religion's not doing that, if it's not shocking us, if it's not shaking us awake, then it's not doing its job. When you go to church, you should leave with many more questions

than when you went in there. You should be questioning everything about your own life, about our society, and the way this country is structured. That's what religion does for me. I'm blessed to belong to a church in Round Rock, Texas,

that does that for me. But I want every person in this country, particularly every young person, to have that kind of community. And if one doesn't exist in your neighborhood, which it may, and people should investigate, because there are great churches doing great work, calling people out. But if it doesn't exist, then you should make one. It doesn't have to be in a building. It could be on a, on the side of a mountain with the birds of the air and the lilies of the field. And I hope that the crisis in this country right now, I hope the silver lining is that more people are going to rebuild these faith communities to find

meeting, find purpose, and reconnect us with our neighbors. On the topic of connection, the central theme of this show is how the internet and especially social media offer the illusion of connection, but leave us feeling lonelier, more divided, disconnected. I know you've talked about this a lot in your campaign. It's clear from the data that people across the political spectrum have this feeling. It also seems like a strong tide to swim against and a really tough problem to solve. How do you think about that? Well, I think it starts with recognizing the problem that we are all being pitted against each other. I mean, these for-profit platforms, these predatory algorithms, they are dividing us on an hourly, daily basis.

They divide us by party, by race, by gender, by religion. And they elevate the most extreme voices on all sides to provoke our outrage to get more clicks, to make more. money. I've called it the rage economy. And the billionaires who own these platforms, they know that hate cells and anger cells and fear cells. They are actively appealing to our worst demons instead of our better angels. And you're right. They are selling us conflict and calling a connection. And it's almost like feeding us empty calories, which has left us all starving for real community. And it's why on this campaign, we are going everywhere, every corner of the state, and we're having in-person events where we're bringing people together. We're building community. We're meeting our neighbors, our flesh and blood neighbors, because I think that's what people

are really hungry for right now. And it's the way that I think we can start to subvert and push back against these platforms that make money by tearing us apart and by keeping us at each other's throats. So until we recognize what's happening to us, I don't think we could even start with figuring out how to fight back. There's this wonderful New York Times story last week about Zoran Mondani's campaign, and much has been written about that campaign, but this piece focused on how for a lot of the young people who participated in that campaign, it was an antidote to the loneliness and disconnection. And I think a lot of this, I mean, it was happening before the pandemic, but the pandemic certainly accelerated this. And it was just so it made me think like,

oh, this is, this is like fundamentally what politics should be at its best is people getting together, figuring this out together, having disagreements in person, figuring out what it is to knock on a door, talk to someone who either doesn't want to talk to you or doesn't agree with you and trying to like bring them along. And I do wonder if you see like your campaign as an opportunity to just get people out of their houses and and just, you know, make connections with each other. Yes. You know, I really struggled with the decision to run for this seat, primarily because I really valued my time in seminary. I still want to become ordained as a minister. And I had to kind of put all that on hold to run statewide in Texas. But the reason I decided to do this is because I

really feel like this can be a form of ministry. And when I'm, you know, I do these rallies and then I, and I wait till the very end to talk to every single person, take photos, hugs, you know, sometimes prayers. And it is a way for me to connect with them and for them to connect with each other. And, you know, the surprising thing about in-person, organizing in-person connection is that it kind of shakes your certainty. I feel like serving in the Texas legislature with a bunch of far-right Republicans has actually been a blessing for me because it forces me outside of my bubble. And when you actually build a relationship with someone the other side, again, not just shaking someone's hand, but I mean actually building a

friendship with someone on the other side, it starts to make you, sometimes it makes you firmer in your convictions, but then on other things, it makes you question your own beliefs. And hopefully, I think it has done that for them as well by knowing me, because that's what relationship can do. It's a two-way thing. And when we don't have that, when we're all siloed, and we're all disembodied, you know, on these social media platforms, it becomes so easy to see the other side as two-dimensional villains. And then they see that about us too. And that's why we have such polarized politics. I do think we are social animals and we have got to be able to interact with each other in real life and we have to build real relationships. And I'll just say to

my fellow Democrats, that is the way you change hearts and minds. No one, no one is persuasive. when they're shamed, when they're ridiculed, right, when they're called names. I know when that happens to me, I dig in further. Right. Right. Everyone, that's human nature. That's right. The only times that I've been persuaded to change my mind is when someone calls me out in love with trust and with security and with a relationship. So if we want to build a big enough coalition to transform this country, to transform this economy, we cannot be satisfied with a 51% majority. We just can't. We're always going to be in danger of losing to someone like Donald Trump with a 51% majority. I'm interested in how do we build a 60, 65%, 70% majority like we had in the New Deal era,

like we had in the Great Society era. That is possible. I really do believe that. But it's going to take Democrats relearning the art of persuasion. And that has to start with relationships. It has to start with building bonds and building trust with people who aren't with us yet. And that's uncomfortable and it's difficult and it's risky. But if you're in a position to do that. It is the only way that we're going to save this American experiment, in my opinion. And there's two types of persuasion. One is persuading people who pay attention to politics, but don't necessarily agree with you. And then there is persuading people who have just given up on politics who don't often participate at all. And I know that's a huge problem

in Texas. I mean, it's a huge problem nationwide now, but especially in Texas. And then, you know, you get these, we're in an odd position now as the Democratic Party, where you get the, these off-year special elections, even to some extent, the midterms, where now we have a coalition of highly engaged voters. It is a whiter coalition. It is a more upscale coalition than it's been, more college-educated. And I assume to win in Texas, you're going to need a lot of working-class folks who are black, brown, obviously Texas, like all those counties along the Rio Grand Valley, the border that you know well. They sort of, you know, shifted to Donald Trump, and then a lot of people just stayed home.

How are you thinking about sort of reaching the people who have just given up on politics altogether? Well, you know, I flipped a Trump district when I first got elected to the state legislature. It was a district that no one thought was winnable. I was told it was impossible. I was told I was too young. I was told I didn't have the money

or the political connections to win. But my neighbors and I, we ran an aggressive, authentic, unorthodox campaign that brought people together. And on election night, we flipped that district with 51% of the vote. I couldn't win with just Democrats. I had to win with independents and Republicans too.

And so, yes, there are swing voters who are choosing between the Democratic and the Republican Party. And we have to win those voters over. But then I learned in that process that the biggest group of swing voters were those choosing between the Democratic Party and the couch. And so persuading those voters, not on policy, because they tend to agree with us on policy, but persuading them of their own power, persuading them that they had the ability to change this corrupt. broken political system. That is also a form of persuasion. It also requires a relationship. Politics is relationships all the way down. Yeah. And, you know, when I went to those doors, I try to be very honest with people that, yes, the system is corrupt. Yes, the system is rigged against us. But the only way it's going to change is if you remake the system in your own image. And that

starts with voting, but voting is the bare minimum. It also requires your activism, you're organizing, your attention in every election and in between elections, too. And so we're taking that same approach here, and we are going everywhere. We're talking to everyone, both in person, but also virtually. It's why I went on the Joe Rogan show. It's why I've been on Fox News twice now. It's why I've been on the Christian Broadcasting Network twice now. It's a little bit of a form of risk taking. You know, I'm here on Pod Save America, which tends to be a little more friendly. Not as much risk here. But I don't know if I'm going to persuade as many people here. I can preach to the choir. And, you know, that's important for getting the choir to sing. But if we're going to win this election in Texas, if we're going to win this country back, we're going to have to go into enemy territory. We're going to have to go into the lion's den. And it's going to require some courage from all of us. It's going to require some risk-taking. I kind of love that. I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie, a daredevil when it comes to politics. And I love being in the lion's den. It's why I love serving in the legislature. But I think it's going to require that from all of us. America needs us right now. And it's going to

require courage to have those conversations with that family member at Thanksgiving who you feel like you may have written off. It's going to require reaching out to that neighbor who may be disengaged from politics and think it doesn't matter. Those are the conversations, those are the relationships that are going to get this country back on track. James, thanks for sitting down with me. Yeah. And good luck out there. It's exciting to hear what you're doing. I appreciate you. Thanks. Quick housekeeping note, thanks to everyone who came to CricketCon and made it possible. speaker sponsors. We could not have done it without you. If you couldn't make it and want to hear the conversations panels and all the other fun stuff we got into, head to cricketcon.com. We'll be

posting a whole lot of live from CricketCon content right there. You can also hear these panels on the Pod Save America podcast feed or on the YouTube channel. Sign up at Cricketcon.com for all the details on our next CricketCon coming to you in 2026. As always, if you have comments, questions, or guest ideas, email us at Offline at CricketCon. com, and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad-free episodes of offline and Podsave America, exclusive content and more, go to crooket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with John Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Cricket Media on Instagram, TikTok, and the other ones for original content, community events, and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, John Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilich-Frank. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

Jerich Centeno is our sound editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seagland. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episodes as video. every week. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.