Offline with Jon Favreau - Kamala Harris’ Coconut-Pilled Brat Girl Summer

Episode Date: July 28, 2024

Kamala Harris memes are bringing together leftists and wine moms, neolib shills and NeverTrumpers, political wonks and pop stars across every platform. Why is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president breaking the internet and right-wing brains? Jon and Max discuss the danger of the VP leaning into the memes, MAGA trolls' reaction to her candidacy, and how much of Silicon Valley is all in on Trump. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

What is brat? Well, CharlieXCX has, in an interview, said, that girl who's a little messy and likes to party and maybe says dumb things sometimes, who feels herself, but then also maybe has a breakdown, but parties through it. It's very honest. It's very blunt.

A little bit volatile. Does dumb things. But, like, it's brat. You're brat. That's brat. Okay, maybe that's not the Democratic platform for 2024. But it's close. If people like that, that's great.

A little messy. Likes to party. That's not the Democratic platform for 2024, but if people like that, that's great. A little messy. Likes to party. That's us. Maybe has a breakdown, but parties through it. That's what we did last month. That's true. We had a whole breakdown, but we just, we partied our way through it. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Max Fisher. Max, we're a little over three months until Election Day, and we have a brand new Democratic nominee for president

who's breaking the internet and right-wing brains. So we're going to spend today talking about Kamala Harris's coconut-pilled brat girl summer, the MAGA troll reaction to her candidacy, and how much of Silicon Valley is all in on Trump. But first I've got to ask, how has your screen time been the last couple of weeks? Look, I have to say, like what a thrill it is to come on this show for once and get to talk about the internet is like fun now and it feels hopeful.

We're all coming together. It feels like it's actually impactful and doing something like productive in our world. Our addiction is a good thing. I mean, it kind of feels like it actually matters. But that being said, my screen time numbers are fucked. It's absolutely fucked. North of five hours a day for me now. I'm not that high, but I went up to, I'm like above three, which I have been other for like a year. And I'm also finding that it's just a real reminder of why screen time is bad because not only my phone all the time but like I can't sleep now I'm up every like

90 minutes I can't fucking focus when I try to watch a movie and like look this is just the sacrifice that I have to make to participate in our posts or it's our posts will do it I we're gonna talk about this there's not nothing to that the posting does matter but I did last night was the first we're But I did, last night was the first, we're recording this on Wednesday. Last night was the first night that I was like, okay. I stayed up writing and reading and doing all this kind of stuff until like 9.30. And then I was like, I'm going to go upstairs. No more phone.

Okay. No more phone. I need a buffer of at least a half hour. Just a half hour before bed, where I'm not looking at the latest news. And things have calmed down a little bit, again, as of this recording. You're hearing this on Sunday. Who knows what will happen Thursday, Friday?

I know. Well, it does feel like now that she's in, now that she's locked in, it does feel like our posts are, it's still nice to coconut post, but it does not feel like it was, we're going to like as important as it maybe was. Yeah. All right, let's get to it. Max, you spoke to New Yorkers, Jessica Winter, last episode about what it means to be coconut pilled.

Just one week later, we have all fallen out of the coconut tree. Kamala Harris is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president, and she has taken the internet by storm. The Kamala memes are everywhere. They're mostly positive, and they're bringing together leftists and wine moms, neolib shills and never Trumpers, political dorks and pop stars on all platforms, TikTok, Twitter, everywhere. It's the big tent, baby. Austin, can we play some for the audience?

You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you. Coconut tree? You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? Oh, baby. Drunk in love. Just think why you've been getting down and out about the context. Dirty, dirty coconut world. You could have been getting down and out about the context. Dirty, dirty coconut world.

You could have been getting down to this coconut tree. You think you just fell out of a coconut. My mother used to give us a coconut. Everything is in context. Wow. Those are great. Those were great. Can this be the rest of the show?

We don't need to hear from us. I'm curious about how you're looking back at your conversation last week with Jessica after, now that Kamala Harris is the nominee. Presumptive nominee. It's weird timing because we, I mean, it was one episode ago. It was one week ago. And when we planned that conversation, it was like the first big wave of K-Hive posting. Everybody was writing, hi, we got a good interview. Talk about this.

The biggest thing, politics and the internet. And then like two days later, the assassination attempt happened. And so you can kind of hear in my conversation with Jessica Winters, we're like really trying to will ourselves into it. But we both kind of give enough. I'm like, well, clearly this is over. So it's fun to talk, like come back to it it now now that the like k-hive posting coalition has this sense of vindication and perseverance like we've been through everything and it's like the time compression of it it now feels like like the k-hive feels like we're coming out of

mao's long march but it's been it's been four weeks it hasn't been that long wow it's it feel i mean it feels like it's been a year it has it has been a year of stuff. It has been a year. Of literally some of the craziest developments in any campaign. Well, I mean, one of the things that we will talk about is the, like, I don't know. So earlier today, we were having this big all-hands, and someone asked about 2004 and 2008 and Barack Obama. And I was kind of thinking about, like, yeah, it was like four long years between his 2004 DNC speech and then he becomes the Democratic presidential nominee. It like took a really long time building that coalition, that energy around it, like four years. And this happened with Kamala in basically like, I don't know, 90 minutes?

Like 36 hours? I think it is shocking and weird and wild that, and definitely a comment on the media environment and the internet, that the assassination attempt was like a... The who? Yeah, like the assassination attempt on Donald Trump was like a two, three day story. I know. It is absolutely wild. And like, obviously the investigation's ongoing and there's more news popping up, but when there's assassination attempt news, it's just, like, you know, it's, like, below the fold. Right. You really think that that would have mattered,

but no, we had bigger business, and that bigger business as a nation was coconuts. Coconuts. So for our listeners who may not yet be keyed into the Kamala memes, which you definitely should be, could you explain the coconut memes existing in the context and brat? Okay.

Okay. Here it is. Here it is. Max and John, explain the Gen Z stuff to the olds. Well, for once, it's kind of perfect because it is in between Gen Z doing the memeing and a 59-year-old Democrat, like center center-left who is the subject of the meme.

So we are kind of—we're the impartial mediators to come in and help bring everyone together. We're building the bridge. We're building—and it's a beautiful bridge made out of coconuts. Okay. So the coconut video was ironically, like a lot of the stuff that's become big Kamala memes, surfaced by the RNC. The RNC media arm put it on their YouTube page. It's a video of Kamala Harris. She's actually quoting her mother,

and she says, you think you fell out of a coconut tree. You exist in the context of all in which you live and all that came before you, which is a fine sentiment expressed in a kind of very Kamala way where there's a goofy mid-sentence laugh for no clear reason,

which she loves to do. It's very upbeat, but it's very woo-woo. And it's like, how many Xannies did she pop before having this? And then after the Biden and Trump debate, this and other Kamala signature moments that everyone had just kind of laughed at before got embraced and picked up by like virtually the entire progressive spectrum online as a way to both express support for and build support for Kamala as replacing Biden as the 2024 nominees. So you had all these coconut emojis, you had memes, Brian Schatz took a picture of himself climbing a coconut tree. And this was this kind of three-step progression expressed through these memes of Kamala's public persona going from something that i think had broadly been seen as like weird and kind of a political liability which

is why the rnc clipped that in the first place to it then becoming an ironic joke like haha i'm coconut pilled like wouldn't it be crazy if this lady became the democratic nominee to then and this was the four-year you know rise compressed into a few days, it became an earnest point of enthusiasm for Kamala. So it really did the start online. I just want to say before, when the RNC first clipped it and it first became a thing, before Biden was going to drop out and potentially hand off the baton to Kamala Harris. I think I listened to the clip and I was like, I love the sentiment. I know exactly what she's trying to say.

I think I posted, welcome to Sociology 101. That's to me was like, you didn't just get here, right? It's you, everything you are is because of like the family that raised you the community in which you were born the experiences that shaped your life and the coconut tree is the funny sort of the funny thing there it did remind me of it's it's a similar and and a sentiment that clearly got her in less trouble than in 2012 when Barack Obama said, you didn't build that. Oh, sure.

When he was talking about like taxes and government, right? Like if you had a small business, you didn't build it. You had a whole bunch of, you had an education and public roads and all that kind of stuff. And then the Republicans made it like an entire theme of one night of the convention. So in this sense, the coconut tree is the federal corporate tax rate. Something like that. But yeah, it's just so, she's so joyful when she says it. She's very joyful.

She's very earnest. And we will get into the like politicals. But okay, so the Brat, this is an album by the pop star, Charlie XCX, who is in fact British, so not eligible to vote in the election, even though she's incredibly influential and now came out in June. It had become kind of a meme. It's got this lime green cover. It's the lower

case brat on the cover. It had been like around. So it was getting memed at the same time Kamala was getting memed. So as happens on the internet, they got blurred together and like people were just like combining these two memes Charlie XCX embraced it and tweeted Kamala is brat, which I guess is a good thing It's a good thing and it is brat and not what John Lovett said at our all-hands meeting which is brought He said that a couple of times. We spent too much time in Wisconsin last week I think

And the the Kamala team has leaned into it, and the Kamala HQ Twitter account has set their Twitter banner in brat typography. So this is the kind of first embracing of the memes. And what is brat? Well, CharlieXCX has, in an interview, said, that girl who's a little messy and likes to party and maybe says dumb things sometimes, who feels herself, but then also maybe has a breakdown,

but parties through it. It's very honest. It's very blunt. It's very blunt. A little bit volatile. Does dumb things, but like, it's brat. You're brat. That's brat. Okay, maybe that's not the Democratic platform for 2024,

but if people like that, that's great. A little messy. Likes to party. That's us. Says dumb things sometimes. Can we bring in just like 5% Elizabeth Warren? Also, like, it actually is closer. Maybe has a breakdown, but parties through it.

That's what we did last month. That's true. We had a whole breakdown, but we just, we partied our way through it. We did party through it, and it did feel like a party, which I think is actually part of, I think is part of why it was so effective,

because it was like actually an optimistic moment that we could all buy into. We are, we are, Brad. It's Brad Summer. So what's your take on why this is all happening? Why is Kamala Harris suddenly an internet sensation in a somewhat ironic but mostly positive way, which is very rare in the internet? How much is her? How much is the moment?

How much is the context in which we exist? So I just want, you played some of those TikTok videos at the top of the show. I just want to give it up here for the Chinese Communist Party and Xi Jinping for pulling the lever and flipping the big switch on the algorithm that says, get Trump elected to get Kamala elected. That's what's a big shout out to you guys. I just did terminally online. Okay.

Oh, it's always great. Right. To do before I do offline. And one of my, my was um some of the the craziest blue and on tweets oh yeah yeah and one of the accounts had a these are people who mostly live in your replies like there's like five of them but you hear about them yeah i tried to stick one with like you know very very distant relationship from the actual Democratic Party. Just big follow-up. But this tweet was, It's my honest belief that the CCP carefully calibrated TikTok to suppress pro-Biden content,

and they had no defenses when this changed to Harris for president, and it completely overwhelmed their propaganda efforts. We broke containment. Wow. I love breaking containment. Okay. So my actual answer to this, in addition to the CCP getting coconut peeled, We broke containment. Wow. I love breaking containment. Okay. So my actual answer to this, in addition to the CCP getting coconut pilled, I think that this began as instrumental. It began as like people panicking, understandably, about Joe Biden and who's going to replace him.

Well, Kamala is here. So we're going to like do some coconut posting because that's a fun way to express that. But I think people fell down. I think we all felt that in the kind of good version of the online pipeline of saying something ironically and performing it ironically online in a way that gradually starts to become very genuine. And I think it was two things that kind of- Is this like the complete mirror image of like Pepe the Frog? Yes, it is. I think a lot of this is very like dynamics that we've talked about a lot. We've talked about how it can happen to anybody that it, but it can be

a good thing too. And I think there are like two things specifically about her that pulled people across this line from it being a just like ironic position or a pragmatic position to people actually like really feeling it for her. I think number one is that as momentum gathered to kind of nudge Biden aside in the party, and we saw that all playing out publicly, Kamala posting and like posting the memes or posting the videos came to feel like it was not just fun, but was genuinely meaningful and impactful because it really did feel like we're all signaling to each other. We're trying to signal to political elites you have to do this. We're trying to signal like, look, if you do this, we will be there for Kamala.

There's a real energy for it so you can like take this leap. And I think that that feeling that what we're doing actually can matter had been a really rare one in politics for a really long time. Yeah, I think that's all very accurate. I think there was just also a lot of like pent up sort of energy and then frustration and then hope and like nowhere to put it or direct it, you know, and this became like a vessel. Harris's perspective, the reason why it worked for her is, so she runs for president in 2020 and in the 2019 primary. And I think that, you know, I interviewed her as part of our series of interviewing all the candidates. And I remember, and I had met her a couple of times before, and she is like person to person, one-on-one, one of the most affable, smart, enjoyable politicians out there.

Just like warm, funny, like you really do want to just hang out with her. And I think that in that campaign, like she, there was a lot of like caution and this has been like sort of, yeah, this has sort of been like well documented, you know, and maybe like it kind of blend into her first year as vice president where she's just, and look, I think, I think you don't get to be the, you know, the first black woman to be vice president without, you know, walking a tightrope. Sure.

Being cautious, right? You're not taking big risks all the time for, you know, all kinds of reasons. And so I think that she was she was cautious a lot right there is something that shifted in her the last year or two where i think that she had a you know many bad news cycles and i think after you have all that you're kind of like well what left is there but to just like be myself? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I think she was really her, she's been herself these last couple of years in like

a real way. Right. And it's sort of the difference between being a try-hard politician and being a little goofy in a way that's authentic to who you are. I think authentic. And to me, that was the difference between her 2020 campaign and her last few years as VP and how she is right now. She is like, and you don't see this from a lot of politicians, but she is much more comfortable

in her own skin right now than I think she ever has been in public life, or at least when she's been on the national stage, because I don't know how she was in California as much. But, and the risk there is when you are yourself and you're true to yourself and authentic to who you are, you're going to make mistakes. You could be a little goofy. You could say things like that, right? But like it works. People are going to forgive that. And if you can laugh at yourself instead of just having people be laughing at you, like that sort of takes some of the edge off too.

So I do think that it's not like it's not like a meme of a politician making a gaffe when they didn't mean to make it right that's like she sort of owned that the coconut tree was silly in the content like she's she's owning this stuff and that i think makes it makes it work for her well the weirdness i think really underscores or really like makes the message of authenticity credible because like not trying to be mean, nobody would choose to deliver a speech like that. No one's focus grouping. Like, yeah, why don't you laugh in the middle of all of your sentences? And I think that like channels to people is really authentic and that's really her. I do think she is also kind of the perfect vessel

for people, particularly in the Democratic party at a moment when it feels like hard to feel enthusiastic because of everything we've been through in the last year and when it feels hard to like we really want to buy in because the stakes are so high but we're not quite sure how to do that in a way that we'll feel okay with and the fact that she is both like kind of weird and absurd and like almost a little surrealist but also very earnest and hopeful turns out to be like the perfect formula for this moment because the weirdness and the absurdity gives you kind of permission

to do a lot of like Kamala posting, ironically, as like a pose because like I love coconuts, whatever, like that's not actually, you're not taking like a big stance that you can have to defend. It's just fun to do. But then once people got a taste of

joining in on her message that was also very hopeful and earnest, people really liked that feeling. And I think a lot of people were really craving that, really needed that feeling of like what we do matters and we can feel hopeful about the future. And what started as like, look at this silly speech she gave. And then like you were saying, like once you listen to the message, you're like, actually, this is kind of nice yeah at a time when it's been a while when i think people felt okay signaling to each other publicly especially on social media space that is so cynical and defeatist to say like it's okay to feel excited and feel good about the future yeah and if you look at um look back at some videos of her that have gone viral over the years not just like rnc clipped videos but

i remember like you know she loves to cook and yeah and jonathan capehart uh at msmbc once like asked her like right before the start of an interview but they were filming like what's your like what's your preferred way of uh doing a thanksgiving turkey and she just like i know she was so excited and she did like two minutes on it and you feel like this is what like really drives her. Like this is,

she's like passionate about it and it's not like so many politicians that are like, oh, I heard that I'm supposed to have a fun personal side. So now I'm going to tell you

what it is. We're talking about Charlie Mingus. That's it. That's my yard sign is her holding up an LP of Charles Mingus. And she likes Venn diagrams a lot.

Listen, Jessica and I talked a lot about Venn diagrams. I mean, I really do think that there's like, we have talked a lot about doomerism online. And I think that this moment has been a really important reminder

that, yes, there's a lot about the structure of the internet and the social web that really tells you that doomerism and cynicism and like giving up and everybody is corrupt and you can't do anything is the pose you're supposed to have. But that's not how everybody feels deep down. Yeah. And that even people who might feel some of that because there is a lot that feels scary in our world do still feel a need for feeling hopeful, for feeling like we can come together, like we can actually do something.

We can be pragmatic. We can kind of make choices about like how to accomplish real political change and like look i think it's not for nothing these segments of tiktok that a month ago were saying all politicians are corrupt and we're in late capitalist decline and the rotten american empire's capital is collapsing are now just like absolutely fucking fired up for andy beshear like center left like middle-aged white guy governor of kentucky they are like ride or die for andy and i love that well the one thing i doing the wilderness heard from like you know simon rosenberg right who was like the one of the biggest it's gonna be to be fine, Biden's going to win, Democrats are going to win,

cheerleaders got the midterms right, and a lot of other Democratic strategists too. But Simon's quote stuck in my mind. He's like, the most powerful force in politics right now is fear of MAGA and a desire to sort of defeat MAGA, right? And that is the majority that spans from left to center-right now that has won the election since 2020, and especially 2022, 2023. And it is. It's almost like that's true, but it was like this latent energy. Right. Yeah.

And so part of this, and now I think she's going to have to, you know, harness this in the right way, and so is her campaign, and so all of us too, which is like she's a bit of, we dealt with this with Obama in 08 and, you know, and many years after, but she's a bit of an empty canvas right now where like everyone is projecting their hopes and dreams and beliefs on right and she is human and has positions and is going to make mistakes and is not going to be able to like take positions or say things that please all of the elements of this anti-trump

coalition right and like yeah look it's only four months until less than four months now until november so not a lot of time for everyone to get annoyed but like the challenge over the next couple And like, look, it's only four months until less than four months now until November. So not a lot of time for everyone to get annoyed. But like the challenge over the next couple of months is like, okay, you still, she's still got, she's going to be who she is. And we all have to realize that who she is and what she says is not going to be like everything that each of us personally want in a candidate. I think that is part of what was really valuable about that moment of those two weeks were kind of everybody collectively on social media and then

also in their personal lives were kind of saying like, this is it. This is our gal because she's in place and she can win and she can do it. And, you know, obviously some reasons and the merits too, but just that like she's in position for it, is that that was very explicitly an internal Democratic conversation about making the practical choice. And it's like, we all understand that maybe she has things that we don't love, that maybe there are downsides in our view, but that it's just like, we're so rallied for the practical choice. I feel like that is not a conversation that like has been easy to have in the Democratic Party in past elections, where because the primaries are so divisive or the like after effects the primaries make people feel very divided between center and liberals and left that it feels hard to make that choice to come together

and i feel like that happened a very bottom-up way it did it did um so amanda has had this great quote uh in a piece she wrote for the new the New York Times where she talked about the coconut pills of it all. And the quote was, the measure of a candidate's charisma used to be, would you have a beer with her? Now it's more like, are you willing to spend your evening editing a fan cam style video that sets her idiosyncrasies to pop music so effectively that they produce a pleasant narcotic effect? I love that. That is the measure now. Absolutely. But it works.

I mean, it's happening. I would not have guessed that Kamala Harris would be the first person to arrive at that, but I guess she didn't. I guess it was the internet that arrived at it for her, but we love that. So quickly after Kamala Harris became the nominee, the Biden HQ Twitter account rebranded itself to Kamala HQ with a banner that embraced the Kamala Brat meme nominee. The Biden HQ Twitter account rebranded itself to Kamala HQ with a banner that embraced the Kamala Brat meme and a Twitter bio that said, quote, providing context.

Great stuff. Love that. At the moment, the campaign seems to be steering into the memes, though I haven't yet seen them specifically embrace the coconut pill, at least officially. There was a very funny tiktok uh they were going to play where a a member of it's supposedly it's the same woman acting out both sides but she is both a member of kamala's like senior staff and talking to kamala's social media team thank you to the social media team i mean unbelievable stuff happening thanks yeah

no it was easy with Brad Summer and like Feminine Amidon and like Coconut Tree, obviously. I don't understand a word you just said, but I do understand enthusiasm. Yeah, like the best way to do that is with like fan edits. Now, is there any way you could explain the strategy to me? If you could get that to me by Thursday, that would be fantastic.

Basically the strategy is that like kamala is mother and not in the way that's like oh women only matter and they're only worth something if they are a mother but it's just like she's mother i did see some videos referring to kamala is mother and you know what i agree i think they're right How hard do you think the campaign should steer into the internet memification of Kamala Harris? Like any risk to put in coconuts on yard signs? So I feel like there are two pieces of like unsolicited advice for Kamala and the internet that you see absolutely everywhere. And I agree with them both. I have to say it is very funny that we are in this moment where absolutely everybody with a

Twitter feed believes that this is their moment to shine as the official expert of being online and telling Kamala how to do memes. Like the number of people who are standing up that are like, I got this. This is, it's my time now. I haven't seen that yet. Oh, really? No. Maybe I'm just reading that into a lot of it. Yeah.

I know. You don't like to go online. You don't like to be on your social media. The two pieces of advice that I see everyone give are, number one, that she should go on Hot Ones. Oh, I have seen that. Which I- Well, yeah, Charlie Warzell wrote about that.

Charlie Warzell. Or Jamel Bowie wrote about that. I don't know if he didn't give that advice, but he wrote about people giving that advice. Many people, I would say, have given that. Jamil Buie promised to write a column about it. I don't know that as of today it is out yet, but he's put that thought out in the world. And I don't think that that is literally good advice, but I think it is figuratively good advice in the sense of just, like, lean into being a personality and being fun. And the other that everyone seems to give is like don't lean too hard into trying to like own the memes because then it won't feel authentic and grassroots anymore. Don't like come out and give a speech and be like it's coconut time.

Don't do that. Not that I think that they would or she would, but yeah, don't do that. You can maybe do like a wink or a nod to it. You know like Trump has the QAnon music? Wait, does he? Yeah, there's this like music that plays at his rallies. And it's QAnon music? It's like a QAnon coded thing.

It's a whole, I know, I know. Okay, well, that's not surprising. You can make like a wink and a nod to it. But no, I think to the larger, like the go on hot ones of it all. Sure. This was a challenge because the Biden campaign very much new, again, very smart people running the Biden campaign, working on the Biden campaign, especially doing the digital side. And they very much knew that the challenge of getting attention

in this media environment would mean that Biden would have to do like non-traditional media. And, but like they couldn't put Joe Biden on hot ones, right? Like there's just a lot of places would mean that Biden would have to do like non-traditional media. But like they couldn't put Joe Biden on hot ones, right? Like there's just a lot of places they couldn't send Joe Biden. Sorry, I'm just picturing that. And I am so, so happy that Kamala Harris is the Democratic nominee. Well, that's what I'm saying.

It's like, so there was, they were just limited in how they could get their message out. The fun moments. Right, because like- You can't even do the Super Bowl interview. You can be, and also you can be like the best digital team,

best campaign in the world, but like you still, the product is the candidate. Right. And you need to be able to put the candidate in those spaces. And like,

look, it's, there's some candidates who don't exactly fit in those spaces and you could still put them there. Like Kamala Harris is not going to be a perfect fit

for every crazy, zany, non-traditional media thing that she does. Right. But, like, you know, she could, like, I remember when Obama did Between Two Ferns. Right. And it was like, yeah, and, like, Zach Galifianakis, like, definitely said some things that would make anyone uncomfortable

and did make Obama uncomfortable. And the question is, can you just, like, roll with it? Right? Where you play the straight man or the straight woman, and then like they just, they play off you, you know? And I think that Kamala Harris will be able to do that. And like Joe Biden couldn't do that. I mean, to her credit, she, one of the like previous interviews

that is getting revisited and kind of rediscovered now is like, oh, she actually said some great stuff here, is her interview with Drew Barrymore. Yeah. Like one where she's like talking about her laugh. And she gives this like very authentic, answer beautiful it's beautiful and what's great about that is i'm so sorry to drew barrymore but that is a weird interview well the only thing that was close to her the only clip that we had seen from that interview that went viral

was drew barrymore like begging her and saying at this moment this country needs a mamala can you help us? And that was way before the debate. I know. And now I'm saying that. Drew Barrymore was the first she was the first coconut pilled. We gotta give it up for her but she was very uncomfortable in how she raised it. But now other clips from that interview are circulating

like the one where she talks about her laugh and she's like I come from a family where like all the women in the family, my mother, my sister, like, we just had big laughs all the time. And you realize at some point when you're in public life, like, you're not going to hide parts of yourself that are true to who you are. It was like, I was like, that's a perfect answer.

Which is to say that she can pull really good moments out of even tough interviews. And a lot of the, like, authentic, hot one-ish, like, meme-y interviews are kind of tough because you never know what you're going to get. Tommy had shared a tweet with me that I can't find now where someone said something like,

are we going to GameStop Kamala right to the White House? It does sort of feel... You know what? GameStop worked. It worked. And you know what? The stock short sellers, the like meme stockers, they were fucking right too. They were right that GameStop was undervalued. They what the the stock short sellers the like meme stockers they were fucking

right too yeah they were right that game stock was undervalued they were right that the short sellers it's like we did like a whole episode on the other show how we got here and it was like kind of shocking to realize because i had always thought like meme stocks they're so stupid like they were right and they all got rich yeah and like is that America? I think there is a, you know, there is a limit to this, right, in politics, which is especially with the voters that we're trying to reach, right? So, like, I think that in terms of generating energy and enthusiasm, which is not nothing, as we have seen in this environment, right? And we haven't had it in a long time. So, this is like, it's really great to have that. Now the question is,

like there is a, currently a race to define Kamala Harris. And we're about to talk about how the right is doing that as well. And she has to both maintain the energy and enthusiasm that has been created in some ways for her by the internet and a lot of these memes. And make sure she's reaching beyond to the people who like have no idea what Brat Summer is or the coconut tree.

And you know the one politician who I think did this really successfully like I hate to say it was Donald Trump. In 2015 and 2016, this like relatively small fringe of what became the Republican Party online, like this like super online group that was not representative. And at the time it was happening, it felt very easy to dismiss because it was like, this is just a bunch of nerds in their basements who are like posting Pepe the Frog, Donald Trump memes on Reddit, but it turned out to be really important because they had this like very strong message about who he was and about why they were enthusiastic for it. And then energy kind of bled into the mainstream and his campaign was also very smart about how they repurposed that and kind of leaned into it without undermining the authenticity of it. And there are some other things about Donald Trump I don't think we should emulate. I'm not saying go through the whole playbook, but I do think it's not for nothing that like that has been, I mean, it's a very new era. This is a very new phenomenon, but that has been pulled off basically once, but is also to say that that relatively small online like community that gathered around him ended up being really, really important for defining the entire race. And maybe that could happen here too. Yeah, you want to surf the memes.

You do, yes. And surf the internet fandom and not really just sort of wallow in it. Right, yeah, he did ultimately take this too far, I would say. I would say that he took this to some extent. Some people have pointed out that he is. I don't like to take positions on this.

All right, let's talk about the right-wing reaction to Kamala Harris's candidacy. So from the Trump campaign and Fox all the way down to the trolls and shit posters, they've all been flailing around for the most effective attack on the vice president. And so far, I don't think they've settled on what that line of attack is,

but they've certainly tried out some very weird, very gross ways to go after her. Laura Loomer tweeted that Kamala Harris can't be president because she has no biological children. She does have two stepkids. Republican Representative Tim Burchett was the first to tweet that Kamala Harris is, quote, our DEI vice president. Lots of other members of Congress, Republicans, have now parroted that line, as well as right-wing media personalities. Libs of TikTok just tweeted a montage of kamala harris laughing um i love that max in front of people it feels like we are in the period right now where uh the writers just

throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks what do you make of the response so far i mean so this is like a normal process obviously it's a you know new candidate has come up very quickly and it is normal to see this kind of like different stuff getting tested everyone's kind of looking around at each other to say what is the message because it's all very organic something that is really striking to me is that in this moment the online right which like we were just talking about in the past has been like a really big ideological driver of the party for basically the last nine years no longer really has a central core platform to serve as a kind of organizing space, as an incubator for messaging and ideology in the way that they had in the past.

In 2016, they had 4chan, Reddit. Facebook was a really big source of kind of the online right, all built around like Gamergate, the alt-right, the Pepe the Frog stuff. 2020, it was a lot of Facebook groups built around like Pland pandemic, QAnon, like anti-lockdown stuff, and then QAnon forums and militia forums that obviously led the party to a pretty bad place. But it was something that was like really driving the messaging for the Republican party in that election. And there's just no clear equivalent for Republicans in 2024. They're just like, even Telegraph has been really, really quiet lately.

They're just like not kind of a space where they can organize. And I think that's part of why they seem so adrift right now, because that's where they've been going for that for the last nine years. Although I do think that, I think that a black woman running for president is just like, there's something that they're, and again, they're not all on the same page here. It's like varying degrees of how hard they're going to go after her. But you're already seeing like just a know members republican house members to like stop talking about her race and her gender and like sticking to the issues and i don't think they did that out of the goodness of their heart i think they did that because they think that that's

not going to um it's not really going to reach the voters that you need to reach by being openly racist and sexist about kamala harris although i do think this it brings up a question that i've been thinking about which is like they throw out a racist and sexist attack right and then the reaction they get even if it's not from kamala harris's campaign or kamala harris herself like the internet fights back and then we're like spending a couple cycles talking about their racist and sexist attacks right and I do wonder sort of how to navigate that in this media environment because it's like much trickier

than it used to be even four or five years ago. There is definitely something where you just throw out the most, I mean, this is something that Trump has been very good at where it's like, you don't like the conversation

so you just say something like absolutely deranged, really provocative and then the conversation becomes like, I mean, how many times in 2016 through 2018 was it like he threatened nuclear war, but we spend the next day talking about another tweet that he sent? And it just, I do, my hope is that we, and like the media collectively has like wised up to that a little bit and there's a little bit more focused on the

stakes. And I do think you see that in the focus on Biden's age after the debate, that there is a little bit more focused on the stakes. And I do think you see that in the focus on Biden's age after the debate, that there is a sense in the media that like democracy is really on the line and it's like it's really important that people know what the stakes are. This can't just be another like fun election where we talk about whatever is the crazy thing in the news today. But we'll see how much that holds. And I think from the Harris campaign, I'm sure they're going to do what the,

and I talked to Sasha Eisenberg on offline, who sort of wrote a book about disinformation and misinformation and how in 2020, the Biden campaign fought back. And the way they did this is that they sort of, they got a sense of all the different attacks on Joe Biden that were out there. And so they had back in 2020, the age thing was an issue. And they also had the Hunter laptop stuff and Hunter Biden and the business deals. And they found out which of the attacks

were most prevalent and then which were the most damaging. And if an attack was both prevalent and damaging, they realized all the other stuff, let's not respond to. And it turned out that like the Hunter laptop thing was everywhere,

but it actually wasn't that damaging because most people were like, you know, they're common sense and they realized that like the son's laptop

did not have to do with Joe Biden. Right. So they let that go. And then, but the age thing was quite damaging even back in 2020.

And it wasn't damaging just because people were like i don't want someone old is that it was they used old as a proxy for weak the people were attacking him and so in to respond to that they what what what people really wanted was to see that joe biden was strong and in control and like confident in his values so they would put him out to say things like that so it wasn't like look, Joe Biden can, can run a 400 or be on his bike. Uh, it's that, it's that Joe Biden can like say what he's for and show that he's taking action and show that he's like the author of his own story. And I do, and I bet right now the Harris campaign is probably testing out the, like, she's a San Francisco liberal, she was covering up Joe Biden's age issues,

she's responsible for the border stuff, or some of the, like, grosser racist and sexist stuff, and then figuring out which is most prevalent, which is most damaging, and then how do you respond to that on your terms? And it would be nice in this environment for, like, all of us to know that. Right, yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, speaking of us to know that right yeah yeah you know just well i mean speaking of you know candidates being older we don't have the same donald trump that we did eight years ago eight years ago he was really very good at knowing exactly when to weigh in and exactly what to say to shift the conversation the way that he wanted he knew the exactly the attacks to drive that we're going to like drive a lot of attention focus and that is just not true today yeah he is like he's a lot older he's lot slower. He is way up his own ass from being in this like weird echo chamber. And I think that he's like, as we saw in 2020, the fact that he completely hollowed out the Republican Party and replaced it with himself means that if Donald Trump is off message and if he's talking about like, it's not fair that I have to run against

Kamala, then that's the party's message And by the way You just mentioned how the right as a whole doesn't have like a single platform or a place to all be like Him not being on Twitter Yeah, and not having the same matter reach every minute of the day when he when something pops into his stupid head That has actually mattered too because he's been posting up a storm about Kamala Harris and everything else I'm as big of a junkie as there is and I haven't seen them all it's another Trump own goal

because he is so up his own ass he could go back to the other platforms they have all unbanned him because fucking of course they have but he refuses to use them because he's an investor in truth social where the only people who ever read what he has to say are the people who are already going to vote for him.

So it's like he really is his own worst enemy. We've talked a lot on this part about how the media environment isn't just decentralized. It's almost individualized now. We're all trapped in our own algorithmic bubble. Makes it harder for both political parties to get their message out to people who aren't already with them or against them. How do you think that dynamic might affect the race to define Kamala Harris, the race to remind people about Donald Trump, and just how the next couple months unfold? How does she reach people who are not sharing the coconut memes?

Yeah, and just like, how do you, like, what does the media environment look like for four months when one of the candidates is very well known, the other is not beyond the fact that she's vice president, so she's got 100% name ID, but impressions of her from all the polling are, you know, they're fluid, right? And people don't have like hardened impressions of her

because she hasn't been in the spotlight like the president, right? And now we have coconut-filled memes, and we've got this like meme version of her, we've got the real like the president, right? And now we have coconut-filled memes and we've got this like meme version of her. We got the real version of her and we got like four months to go. Well, a point that you have made a few times is that 50 million people watch the Biden and Trump debate and that act of that many people watching it

dramatically moved American politics and dramatically moved the election. And I think that that is an important lesson to take that people are interested. They do want to know what's going on. They want to tune into it directly and not just through their like algorithmic, whatever fractured bullshit feeds. And that those moments where they can actually reach people because it's a debate or it's something where a lot of people are tuning in, like that is kind of the whole ballgame because that is when a lot of people, like, really want to know what's going on.

They know that they don't like Donald Trump, and I'm sure they would like to hear about her. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I was about to say that it makes the debates more important. Absolutely. There are debates between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. I also think it makes the convention,

the Democratic convention, more important because I had been saying up until the convention, like, well, mostly partisans watch conventions or, you know, people whose job it is to cover conventions or be political and stuff like that. But you don't get a lot of like undecided voters or new interest. I think that might be different now in the Democratic convention, because there's a lot of people who know now there's a brand new nominee that, you know, people knew Joe Biden very well. They don't know as much about Kamala Harris. So I do think that will get a lot of eyeballs. So that's a big moment. But I think that in the fall, like this is all building to, we got to see Kamala Harris on stage next to

Donald Trump and see what happens. I think that's right. Like, I don't, and so I, I'm of the mind that like, everyone's like, oh, well, Donald Trump will skip or he'll drop out. Yeah. It's possible because he's Donald Trump, anything can happen. But it feels to me like we're heading to that moment. Yeah, that's going to matter a lot. Yeah, I think so. Finally, let's talk about the ongoing Trumpification of Silicon Valley. Prolific podcaster, poster, and angel investor David Sachs just spoke at the Republican convention. Venture capitalist Marc Andreessen is going with Trump after supporting Democrats in 2016. Elon Musk has finally endorsed Trump and started a pro-Trump or at least pro-Republican super PAC

that he's donating an unspecified amount of money to. There were some rumors, and then he said, no, not $45 million a month. But reporting in the New York Times is that he is contributing some unspecified amount of money to it. And just last week, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg said he's not endorsing any candidate, but did have this to say about Donald Trump. On a personal note, it's, you know, I mean, seeing Donald Trump get up after getting shot in the face and pump his fist in the air with the American flag is one of the most badass things I've ever seen in my life. But, and I think, look, at some level as an American, it's like hard to not get kind of emotional about that spirit and that fight. And I think that that's why a lot of people like the guy. Not that hard.

What? What? Had you not heard the whole thing? I had not heard that that's why people like the guy. What? Why would you do that? Why do you go out on a limb to be like, well, I'm not endorsing Donald Trump, the authoritarian fascist,

but like, boy, he sure is a badass. Boy, is he a badass. John, that is the kind of sharp political acumen you get from the guy whose shadow presidential campaign flamed out three and a half years before the election. He? That's the Zuckerberg touch. I realize this isn't like, you know, thoughtful analysis. He sucks.

Look, I would say I didn't appreciate that intervention. I would say that's how I would put it. Unbelievable. So all of this is in addition to Donald that's how I would put it. Unbelievable. So all of this is in addition to Donald Trump's selection of J.D. Vance as his running mate. As a reminder, J.D. Vance, while writing Hillbilly Elegy, was employed as a – he was a venture capitalist in the Valley and was working with Peter Thiel. Right. Yeah. Who was also like funded a large portion of his Senate campaign in 2022.

As someone who has literally written a book about Silicon Valley's relationship to democracy, what do you make of all this? Okay, so I know sometimes you hear the phrase techno-authoritarianism or techno-fascism, and those sound like kind of euphemism or epithets for guys in Silicon Valley whose views we don't like, but it is a literal accurate descriptor of a very small subset of people, but very influential subset of people in Silicon Valley whose views we don't like, but it is a literal accurate descriptor of a like very small subset of people, but very influential subset of people in Silicon Valley like Peter Thiel, Mark Andreessen, Ben Horowitz, who are, Spotify. We wouldn't have these companies without him. So it's very, very influential, very powerful. And Peter Thiel literally and explicitly has said

that we should do away with democracy, that we should abolish people's right to participate in elections and replace it with rule by literally tech industry companies and by tech elites because their wealth proves that they are superior,

they're better than the rest of us, so they should be in charge. And he is like J.D. Vance is like really their guy. Like they plucked him out of obscurity at Yale Law School. They took him to the valley. They got him all of this money. They funded him like right into the Ohio Senate seat. And this is not to say that J.D. Vance represents like a Trojan horse for like specific secret shadow plot.

Like these guys are not that smart. There's not like a secret plot to install facebook as like our roman god emperor but it is to say that this is a like a new and pretty powerful and very moneyed faction as part of the like trump explicitly authoritarian like let's tear down democracy mission which is i think noteworthy and you don't have to like necessarily believe in conspiracies that there's some like larger conspiracy here it makes sense in a way because what is democracy democracy is messy and fractious and requires you to like work and talk and disagree with a whole bunch of people and like productive ways and these tech

guys who have a lot of money, these billionaires, they're used to just being like, oh, I had a great idea. Now I'm a – or I threw a couple hundred million dollars into this idea and now it's a big deal. And so I don't want anyone challenging me. I don't want to have to deal with a whole bunch of other people. Things should run much easier if it was just if I'm the only one in charge. That's really how they think.

Yes, it is. And there's been a very specific and very extreme radicalization. Again, we're talking about a very small number of individuals. I don't want to tar all of Silicon Valley with this. No, no, no. But these guys who like very publicly took this turn starting in like 2019, 2020. And as the reaction to started with critical media coverage of social media companies and tech companies which they considered illegitimate and they started arguing we need

to abolish the press because it is cutting against human enterprise and the way they've gotten to this is they have persuaded themselves that the future of the human race will be determined by silicon valley because they are the ones creating the new world for us so anyone who is an impediment to that for example if your reporter writes a critical article about Facebook, that means that you are literally standing in the way of the human race and its future. And it's also like underlying that is you don't get it. These reporters, all they want to do is they want clicks. They want to tear them down.

And they want to tear us down. And they don't understand what we're trying to do. Right. So they believe, and this also comes after the movement towards tech regulation that comes when Biden comes into office, the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank is like a big radicalizing moment for them because they think this is a conspiracy against them. The rise in interest rates, which has been very tough for them. They all believe that this is a vast left-wing plot specifically against the tech elite who otherwise would naturally and inevitably assume control of

america so they believe that that's like trump is right about the deep state that's why they've all like really come out very hard for trump and i think that they pushed very hard for jd vance to be the vp on his ticket i don't know if they're the like primary reason why that happened but they definitely think that this means this is their race now and i think think that there's a segment that are techno-authoritarian, like the Peter Thiel's who've done some thinking about it. I also think there's a segment that are like bored billionaires who have a lot of extra time and are spending a lot of time online and are radicalized by spending a lot of time online,

just like a lot of other people are radicalized because they have nothing else to do. That's a segment. I think a lot of them got specifically really rich on crypto. And then they went on to a clubhouse. Yes. Okay. So clubhouses started by Mark Andreessen and Ben Horowitz, who are like two of the leading

Trump or MAGA tech VCs now. And you could go on it and they would just be on there for fucking hours working themselves into this big froth about like the media is part of a conspiracy to tear us down. And like we've got to abolish the free press for the betterment of America. And I think they really talked themselves into it. But it is important to say that I think a lot of Silicon Valley is like in a countervailing way moving, not specifically because them, but is moving very much towards Kamala. Well, and she's also, you know, she's from San Francisco. And so she has a lot of ties to Silicon Valley. And I think her record when she was a statewide elected official,

when she was the attorney general in California, was friendlier to tech. But it was also a time where like most Democrats were, it was like the Obama era, like most Democrats were friendlier to tech. Right. And, you know, she's since been part of an administration that has actually been tougher on tech than almost any other administration. Something that really surprised me, but I think is kind of important context for knowing how this all fits together. You know who J.D. Vance absolutely loves? Who? Lena Kahn.

Oh, that's right. Yes. He specifically came out and he said, I think Lena Kahn is doing a great job. And I think that tells you that it's like, sometimes from the headlines, it's like, oh, J.D. Vance is Silicon Valley's guy. He really just represents this very small class of VCs who love Lena Kahn because they think that she's going to break up Google, which will create space for them to fund new startups that will do very well. But at the end of the day, they're the ones who have to run shit.

Yeah. Certainly. You don't get a vote. You don't get a vote. You don't get a vote. It's the techno-theritarians. All right, Max. That's our show for today. We did it.

We did it. We went through all the... We're coconut pilled. Before we go, some quick housekeeping. Another exciting Vote Save America update. We've now had over 27,000 people sign up for Vote Save America's 2024 volunteer program, Organizer Else, including 10,000 since last Sunday for Vote Save America's 2024 volunteer program, Organize or Else, including 10,000 since last Sunday.

I'm one of them. Max is one of them. Finally, about time. I'm on board. I thought you were like a team captain. Let's fucking go. And those folks have already reached out to over 1 million voters. Not Max, because he's new.

This is a historic moment in U.S. politics, and we have the power to sway this election, but we need your help to have a fighting chance in November. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash 2024 and click sign up to get started. This message has been paid for by Vote Save America. You can learn more at votesaveamerica.com and this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. And just when we thought the veep stakes were over, Kamala Harris now gets the chance to name her own VP before the Democratic National Convention. In the newest subscriber exclusive episode of Inside 2024, White House alums Dan Pfeiffer and Alyssa Mastromonaco

break down what it's like to onboard a new vice president to the campaign and speculate who might be leading in the race for Harris's top choice. Alyssa literally ran this process multiple times, so she knows what she's doing there. To get access to this exclusive series and more, sign up at crooked.com slash friends now.

That is our show for today. Hopefully the news cycle calms down and get those screen time hours under five. Are you kidding?

I'm having a great time. Yeah, who cares? Fuck it. Let's do it. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, John Favreau, along with Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fisher. Emma Illick-Frank is our associate producer.

Mixed and edited by Jordan Cantor. Audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, and Reid Cherlin for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Dilan Villanueva, who film and share our episodes as videos every week. Thank you.