Offline with Jon Favreau - Optimism In Our Age of Anxiety

Episode Date: March 28, 2026

Why fight for a better future if we don't believe one is possible? Why organize, why vote? Dr. Deepika Chopra, the "Optimism Doctor," joins the show to talk about the dangers of cynicism, and to explain how optimism is a more rational and democracy-safeguarding response to this political moment. In her new book, The Power of Real Optimism, Dr. Chopra argues that the outlook is neither a trait nor mindset; it's a learnable set of skills that even the most pessimistic among us can incorporate. And it’s an essential safeguard against the paralyzing, numbing effect our media ecosystem has on our brains.

If you guys like Pod Save America, please consider subscribing to our Friends of the Pod program. So Friends of the Pod get lots of stuff. You get more Pod Save of America. That includes our new show, which is called Pod Save America Only Friends. It's where Dan gets naked. Where Dan gets full frontal nudity, but mostly it's a biweekly subscription-exclusive podcast. It is basically Podsave America, but behind a paywall. So it's a little bit looser and more fun.

And it's Love It and Favreau and Me and Fife and then other crooked hosts. We go deeper on the news and cover more stories. You also get Open Taps, which is a weekly behind the show. this needs newsletter from the show. Plus, you get ad-free episodes, your favorite Crooked podcast, and all kinds of other stuff. Dan will come to your house

and clean it once every quarter. Yeah, clothes. Dan is very busy, clothes only. But along with just getting great content, becoming a friend of the pod, joining our subscription community is the number one thing you can do to help us grow to help independent progressive media.

So if you're ever thought about doing it, if you ever wanted more Pod Save America, consider going to crooked.com slash friends and becoming a friend of the pod. I don't know if you saw that Gallup survey, in February. Oh, yeah. The fact that Americans are literally at an all-time low in their future outlook.

Yes. In more than 20 years. This is the lowest it's been. And I think a lot of people stop and just say, like, well, that makes sense. But what are we going to do about it? Because you can't make a forward movement from that place of collective negative outlook. And I think right now, like so many people are living in uncertainty. There's heaviness and uncertainty.

We cannot make sense of most of the things personally and globally that are occurring. And the brain, when the brain is full of uncertainty, it is in threat mode. The amygdala is firing up. It is in threat response mode. And when you are in that mode, your brain does something out of protection. It's not because there's anything wrong with you. Out of protection, it starts filling in the gaps. And it fills in the gaps with the worst case scenarios.

I'm John Favro, and you just heard from Dr. Deepika Chopra, a clinical psychologist known as the optimism doctor. We spent most of our time here talking about awful and raging news, both life in the Trump era and particularly on this show, the way that information hits us every second of every day through our phones and our feeds. And all that makes maintaining a sense of optimism really, really tough. I know that's true for myself. And it's probably one of the most frequent things we, hear from all of you who listen to crooked shows. Of course, a sense of optimism is important, even necessary in this line of work because otherwise, what's the point? Why fight for a better future if we don't believe one is possible? Why organize? Why vote if we don't believe that work will yield something better for us, for our children, for our grandchildren? We actually need to be

able to process the news and the world for all of its awfulness while still figuring out how we might be able to change it. All of that is why today I wanted to talk to an expert in optimism, someone who can remind us of how we can find optimism again when it feels out of reach. In fact, Dr. Chopra actually has an unusual perspective on optimism, believing that it's not really just a mindset, but a learnable set of skills that even the most pessimistic among us can learn to apply. I invited her on to talk about those skills, as well as why she believes optimism rather than cynicism is the most logical reaction to this current political moment. It was a great conversation and one that I'm very thankful to have had. And before we start, as always, please consider subscribing to Friends of

the Pod if you haven't already so that you don't miss out on anything. Friend of the Pod subscribers get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends, other subscriber only shows like Polarcoaster with Dan Pfeiffer, access to all of our excellent substack newsletters like Pod Save America Open tabs, add free episodes of all your favorite Cricket pods, and You get to feel good about supporting one of the few pro-democracy, independent media outlets left in Trump's America. So head to Kruger.com slash friends and subscribe today. All right. Let's get into it. Here's Dr. Deepika Chopra. Deepka, welcome. Hi. Nice to see you.

It's nice to see you too for people who don't know. We know each other. We do know each other. Our sons, our besties have become besties in school. So cute. They've also played T-ball together. That is really... Coached by our spouses. Our spouses. We were just talking about we are the little league wags, you and I.

Yeah, we just go to the games as fans and support. I kind of help. I help. I help a little bit. You do help, yeah. I just, I chase our toddler around. I'm the dugout girl. Congrats on the book.

Thank you. You've written a wonderful book. Thank you. And so we've noticed you for a little while. I'll be honest, the first time I heard that you're known as the optimism doctor. My reaction was, what kind of LA bullshit is this? Yep, I hope there were some eye rolls. Some eye rolls.

And now, of course, I very much understand it. Your doctorate is in clinical health psychology. Your dissertation was literally on optimism and visualization. You had a post-doctoral fellowship at UCLA and Cedars. But maybe you could start talking about how you got into this line of work. Not linearly. Let me tell you that. My first, I didn't even major an undergrad in psychology.

And to be honest, I felt like psychology always interested me, but it felt like something that was off the table for me. I'm a really sensitive human being. I was even more so as a teenager. I mean, I talk about it in the book, but when the Titanic came out, the movie, I did not go to school for two weeks. So psychology was not something my family nor myself was pushing me into. But I've always just been very drawn to humans and storytelling. and emotions and just being a listener. And I just, I love humans and human storytelling.

And so I think I was always curious about that. And I at the same time had other ideas and passions. I started my first, like very first job. I worked while I was in college at a punk music label, which was the best time in my life. That sounds fun. And then I went into investment banking. for a quick year.

A very quick year. And that was all. And that was all. And then I worked in the public health sector. And it was kind of, it sort of made sense to me. I was doing a lot of M&A. And the deal making part was like what sort of lit me up, which again is a very psychological, like, people-oriented part of the work. I always had really amazing mentorship. And people that were willing to like literally set me aside and say, I saw you light up

during this. Have you ever thought of this? My boss at the time was like, they brought in an organizational psychologist. And he was like, I saw you light up in a way. I've never seen you light up. Have you thought about, he thought organizational psychology? I was like, well, something about that piqued my interest. And I went back to UCLA where I did my undergrad and I knocked on every single door at UCLA neuropsychiatric Institute and just begged for someone to let me work for free to see what this was all about. And so I took a year off. And I just, I ended up being able to volunteer. And I went back to school and got my prerequisites because I didn't even have prerequisites.

And then I applied to grad school. I remember there was like a big aha moment for me. I always loved the science part and like the data. And I love the brain. It just became really into the brain. And I know that sounds creepy. No, it's, you know, fascinating. A lot of it is unknown.

Yes. I think I just followed my curiosity. and I saw one bit of research that just changed and unlocked everything for me. And what it said was is that the brain is an anticipatory organ. So the brain is constantly sort of working and acting in future tense. It's like it could be a few moments from now or six months from now. And it could be like, I'm looking at this cup of water. And my brain tells me it is a cup of water faster than the visual cortex actually registers it as a cup of water.

Or when you think about eating something, something, whatever it is. Like I'm imagining what I might have for lunch right now. My brain already releases the right amount of insulin to break down that food before we even eat it. And so the brain is just constantly in this future-oriented work mode. And I started to think at the same time, you know, this was many years ago now, but most of the interventions that we were taught to work with clients or patients was many times past driven. And that's fine. That makes sense to understand who you are and why you are the way you are. And then we were just starting to really talk a lot about the present.

So cognitive behavioral techniques, which I love. But I didn't see much, I didn't see much in the realm of helping people understand what are they expecting? What are they projecting into their future? And what I came to know is that when you think about something, whatever event it is, whether, again, it is a few moments from now, it's later in the day, it's six months from now, whatever you are expecting to happen and predicting to happen impacts how you feel and then how you feel impacts your behavior. So for me, there was this aha. Exactly.

Like that's where anxiety comes from, right? Like anticipatory anxiety. Exactly. Exactly. And so I felt like, whoa, wait a second here. I'm really passionate about this idea of understanding what people are predicting, even about like small mundane things in their lives. But then taking it a step further and saying, can we? actually changed that. And so that became my passion, my niche. In that time, I felt like the things I was

curious about and studying were a little too woo-woo for like the science community that I was in and way too sciencey for the self sort of growth community at that time. And so somewhere along the way, I think like a little before COVID, people really sort of caught up with this idea of blending sort of the to and this idea of like optimism and hope theory and just how important that was. The optimism doctor part really came organically. And I remember I was really interested in sort of I would call my therapy work self-worth work instead of therapy. I would sit in front of a client and be like, okay, the first time I saw them. We're going to be doing things a little bit differently. Here's what we're going to do. X, Y, and Z. We're going to look at your optimism. I'm going to ask you

some questions. We're going to focus on the things you want and your skills and your strengths and what you're predicting and all this stuff. And at the end of like 20 minutes of taking up 20 minutes of time of this client session, he was like, so you're kind of just like my optimism doctor. And I was like, huh. I guess that's it. I guess that's it. And so that is where the optimism doctor piece came from. What does the actual research say about optimism and how it works in the brain? Like, what have you looked? Just to, I know this is what the whole book is about, but just as a summary of the research and the science behind it, like, how does it work and what has sort of surprised you about it? We have this, like, idea of what optimism is. And to be

honest, it's, like, all wrong. And I think most people think that optimism is about being positive. It's about the silver linings. It's about looking at the world through rose-colored glasses and sort of in my mind, like, I visually see someone like skipping through like a field of poppies, like singing in bliss while like the world's on fire. Yeah. It's like blind optimism. Yes. And what I, and I'm doing this work, I feel like I have heard every single sort of

stereotype of what people think an optimist is under the sun. Often very smart people are like, I'm not an optimist. I'm a realist. Yeah. And they sort of separate it as in like you can't be a realist while being an optimist. And I thought that was so interesting because I also felt that way. And to be honest, I'm known as the optimism doctor. And I am not the most optimistic person.

Even in my like microcosm of family, I'm probably the least optimistic naturally person. And I like it, the good news is what I've learned about it is what's a surprise is optimism is not a personality trait. And I think a lot of people think it is. It is a learned psychological skill that can be trained. And I am training myself to be more. And I think the other thing is an optimist, actually, a real optimist, as I call it, is so grounded in reality. And like the definition that we use, you know, from this perspective, is someone that is deeply mindful and aware of the roadblocks and the setbacks and the less than ideal situations. But the caveat is they see them as temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome, even if they don't know how or when.

Like I've always thought about, in the context of politics, for sure, the difference between optimism and hope. Yes. And I've always thought about it as like optimism is, or if I'm optimistic about the future, it's people being like, I think it's going to get better, but like we'll see. It's like a predictive. Yeah. And hope, to me at least, is more grounded in agency. And it's this like I can see the challenges, but I have the sort of ability to change the future and change circumstances. Right.

To a better, to a better future. But it sounds like that is real optimism. Is real optimism. I see optimism from my world and perspective as much more related to resiliency and curiosity than related to positivity. So it's really much more about, you know, understanding and being very very great. grounded in your authentic emotion, whatever that is. And a lot of times that is not feeling great. That might be rage or grief or, you know, worry or anxiety, whatever those are. But at the very same time of sitting in it, it's allowing yourself to be curious about how this might change. And you're not even

committing to, I think it's going to be better yet. You may not even get there yet. But just being able to know, number one, that it will change because a lot of this is what we call explanatory style and understanding that everything is temporary, and that's a huge hallmark of being able to increase your real optimism factor. You don't have to be someone that knows with certainty that it will be better. You just have to have curiosity that I wonder how this will change. And even from that, which I kind of call being in, it's almost like neutral plus. It's like when you go and order a steak and you're like, I'll have medium rear plus, which people probably hate you for, but in L.A. it's okay. The same kind thing. We don't have to be, optimism doesn't always feel good. And I think that's another surprising

factor because we cultivate our optimism through persevering through struggle. And so I think people think that we really, you know, can only be optimistic when we are blissful and feel good. Well, you open the book with a very personal story about this. And, you know, I, this was before we really knew you guys, but I knew Dio had been really secure, your, your middle son, who's, you know, Charlie's friend. Yes. And just learning the details from you writing about that period, the diagnosis, the uncertainty, like having to physically hold him down for his medication.

What was, and you mentioned that sort of it was interesting for you as the optimism doctor. Yeah. To realize that the tools you teach other people to use weren't necessarily the ones you were reaching for at first. Right. So can you talk about that experience, sort of what that taught you about optimism? Yeah. Well, first of all, at the time, it felt like cruel irony. I was literally writing the manuscript for this.

And like many horrible things that happen, they surprise you and they come out of nowhere. And unfortunately, we were told that this medical diagnosis that literally came out of nowhere. I mean, one moment he was, you know, wrestling with his older brother and asking for snacks and wanting to, you know, play with trucks and watch. Lightning McQueen over and over and over, to having this earth-shattering, you know, diagnosis that now was setting us off on a path that felt like, you know, a huge mountain that was a long mountain, a year and a half of treatment. It just, it came out of nowhere and it was chalked to, as they said, bad luck. There was like two in a million chance for a kid to get this.

and this rare child, you know, medical diagnosis is definitely not getting the researcher funding that it's going to be needing. And so I think aside from just not knowing why it happened, which is a very scary place to be in as a parent, but also not understanding even with the treatment, like what it was going to mean for us and what the future holds. And so I remember calling my agent, and I was just like, I don't think I can write this. How can I write this? I literally am the most hopeless and helpless I've ever felt in my life. I'm full of darkness. I feel paralyzed. I'm not writing this book on optimism.

Yeah. And I kind of retreated to a lot of old habits that I went to when I was, like, grasping for desperation, just like looking in front of the mirror and being like, my son is healthy. everything's okay. And that doesn't necessarily work. No. And I felt almost like a responsibility that if it didn't work, I wasn't doing it good enough. And I asked the universe, you know, and it sounds so silly. But, you know, I imagined him being, like, surrounded by white roses and all these things that I had, like, read and just, like, this is a hologram.

And you make your own reality. And I just, like, you know, looked up to the sky and said, universe, like, all I really want is for my son to be healthy, like, deliver it. And unfortunately, you know, this was the time we were waiting the three weeks for pathology. And none of that worked for me. And I remember just sitting underneath my office desk when we were sort of told what the uphill battle we were now up against our new reality. You know, we had just had the surgery to remove this mass. And now we know what it is. And we have a year and a half ahead of us of treatment weekly and daily medication, but also weekly.

we had to go get another surgery to get a port implanted in his chest. I mean, he's two and a half. And I was just really struggling because I was ruminating over, which I think I'm sure a lot of people can relate, why is this happening to us? Why us? Like we're good people. And of all the people, my two and a half year old son who's just this like innocent. He's so sweet. Sweet. I mean, any kid at two and a half, you can't. And it just, I was so stuck in that. And I was so angry. And, and. I had a major shift at some point, like a few months in. I was very paralyzed by this. I was not doing writing at the time. I was just trying to survive. And, you know, you have to pick yourself up and you have to administer the medication. You have to get him to treatment every Tuesday because who else?

Like, I'm his mom. Yeah. And so we were living this weird reality. And I remember having this shift because I opened back up the manuscript. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to read a little bit of what I've been. in writing. And from cruel irony, I feel like maybe it was divine intervention or something. I don't even know, you know, I'm not necessarily a very religious person, but having to literally write out the tools and be on deadlines for it. And my brain cannot unsee what I am typing and what I'm

remembering sharing with a past patient or a client or the research that I'm including. Like, I had to literally I was typing it, so I was processing it and I was using it. And I remember very distinctly one day writing something for the book and thinking, oh my gosh, like I had this major shift from rumination to agency. And the shift instead of, why is this happening to us? Because your brain can't go anywhere from there. Right. Like the prefrontal cortex is not on.

You know, it is, you cannot go anywhere from there. And I remember just softening that and thinking, Why anyone? Why not us? And that didn't make me feel better per se. It still really sucked, but it took away some of the anger and it took away some of the sort of threat response. And immediately after that, I was able to just say, what's my next step? And the next step was maybe packing the hospital bag, you know, preparing for the next treatment or, you know, dosing out the medication or calling insurance companies or whatever it was. But it sent me more into. the mode of agency and like what is my next step. Yeah. And that was a really big shift for me. It didn't make any of it easier. It was all awful.

And I wish I could have learned a lot of what I learned in a different way. Yeah. But that is the way I learned it. And I remember just thinking now at that point, my son, you know, at the end of writing this book, like I literally wrote the book throughout the entire treatment. And at the end of it, he was, we were approaching the last. few treatments. And I said to myself, wow, this should be really a happy time for me. But it actually was the most anxious time because, again, it was going to be a time where I was not doing anything,

at least like every Tuesday, which I hated, we were doing something. Right. We were going. We were taking an action. Taking an action. I had some sense of control. We were doing what we were supposed to do. And I remember thinking like, wow, this is, I don't want to project this onto my son now. He's four. and hopefully he's got, you know, a life of head of him. And every day, if I'm like, is this it? Is that it? I don't want to project that onto him. It's already hard enough to be a kid growing up in the world.

Well, interestingly, I mean, we started talking about sort of the brain and how the brain thinks about the future all the time, right? Yeah. We're always very future-oriented. And I do think, at least for me, when something bad happens like that, the first instinct or the way that my brain has worked for a long time, time and I'm sort of fixing it, is you're like, you just think about all the bad things that could happen.

And like, well, do you know why that happens? It's like the brand, and this is so important for right now because I think collectively, I don't know if you saw that Gallup survey in February. Oh, yeah. The fact that Americans are literally at an all time low in their future outlook. Yes. In more than 20 years. This is the lowest it's been.

And I think a lot of people stop and just say, like, well, that makes sense. Like, yes, that makes sense. We can all understand why. There's so many reasons why. But what are we going to do about it? Because you can't make a forward movement from that place of collective negative outlook. And I think right now, like so many people are living in uncertainty. There's heaviness and uncertainty.

We cannot make sense of most of the things personally and globally that are occurring. And the brain, when the brain is full of uncertainty, it is in threat mode. The amygdala is firing up. It is in threat response mode. And when you are in that mode, your brain does something out of protection. It's not because there's anything wrong with you. Out of protection, it starts filling in the gaps. And it fills in the gaps with the worst case scenarios.

Yeah. It's funny. I've always been an anxious person. And I think the moment where my personal anxiety about life and what's going to happen and medical stuff or this or other thing sort of intersected with what I do professionally was during the pandemic. Yes. And I remember, like, a lot of times sitting there at night being like, is this ever going to be normal again?

Am I going to, are we going to see our friends again and our family? Are we going to get sick? What's going to happen when the kids are, you know, when Charlie's born and we have to do this. And now we have a, like, and it was just like constantly and then reading the news and like going to all. And then you're looking through the news because you're looking for the piece of information in the news that's going to make you feel like, oh, it's fine now. Right. Or I can do something. Or I can do something.

And make sense of this. Right. And I think the crazy thing about that is, like, media has really figured out, like, neuroscience. Yeah. It really, like, honestly, has figured it out perfectly. Like, great job, but not really. Because our brains, like, one of the truths about the brain that I talk about in the book is our brains like to collect evidence to make a thought that we already feel is true, more true. That is part of the efficiency.

Confirmation bias. And I, myself, have really like I, I, this is kind of a silly story, but I only downloaded TikTok like very much late in the game. Like it was only a few years ago. No, I'm on the same way. And I can do like one thing. Like I'm on Instagram and even that. Like who knows what I'm what I'm doing. But I, we were in Italy, Alex and I. We were like on one of our first like vacations without the kids. And I remember it was the time that that Bayesian sank. Oh yes. I forgot about that. Yeah. And of course I turned on TikTok just then and I started like watching it because it was sort of in the region that we were in.

And I got like really, I mean, it fed me all kinds of things, which obviously I was like interested in. And then all of a sudden it was like, this girl loves conspiracy theory. And it was like the it was like all this stuff. And I looked at Alex and I was like after like hour like I was just like consuming this stuff. And then I looked, I'm like, what are you watching on TikTok? And his were like this guy walking down the street that would like stop people and play like 10 seconds. of a song and then they would have to guess what the song was. And I'm like, that is so fun. Why can't? So I literally had to actively retrain the algorithm, which by the way, is so fitting because that is what we have to do with our brains. Right. Offline is brought to you by Delete Me.

Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Data brokers make a profit off your data. Your data is a commodity. Anyone on the web can buy your private details. This can lead to identity theft, fishing attempts, and harassment, but now you can protect your privacy with Delete Me. What did data brokers do? Your name, contact info, social security number, home address, even information about your family members could all be compiled by data brokers and sold online. The New York Times Wirecutter has named Delete Me their top pick for data removal services. Someone with an active online presence, overly active online presence, privacy is important to me,

and that's why you got to use Delete Me to get all that info off the web, and there is a lot of it on there, even if you don't think there is. Got to go look for it, which Delete Me helps you do. If you've ever been in a victim of identity theft, harassment or doxing, and even if you haven't, you probably know someone who has. Delete Me can help. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe. Now at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to

join DeleteMe.com slash offline and use promo code offline at checkout. The only way to get 20% off off. is to go to join deleteme.com slash offline and enter code offline at checkout. That's join delete me.com slash offline, code offline. This podcast is sponsored by Brodo. Brodo makes bone broths that are delicious enough to drink. Each cup delivers whole food protein about 10 grams per serving, along with collagen building amino acids, electrolytes, and nutrients to help you feel your best,

all under 50 calories and with zero sugar or fat. Broto was launched by award-winning chef Marco Canara. He started selling bone broth out of the side door of his East Village, Manhattan restaurant 11 years ago, and now... Nothing shady about that. Just selling some bones out of... It's exactly where you want to get your bone broth. Out of the side door of a restaurant in the village.

Hey, where's he getting all those bones? Don't ask. Don't ask. But now, whether you want a quick warm drink or a nourishing base for cooking, Broto makes it easy. They ship nationwide so you don't have to be in New York City or go to a side door to enjoy Chef Marco's masterpiece. And Broto comes in eight delicious flavors

from classic chicken to the spicy nana. to more creative blends like ginger, turmeric, herb-infused, or veggie-based broths. Pick up their sampler pack so you can find your favorite. This is delicious. John's been raving about the bone zone. I love some bone broth.

Nice to have some good protein. It's light in your bone broth, you know? It's delicious. Check it out. Try some of it. Shop the best broth on the planet with Brodo. Head to brodo.com slash offline for 20% off your first subscription order

and use code offline for an additional $10. off. Once again, that's brotto.com backlash offline for 20% off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use my promo code offline. In this information environment, like I do think that it has become harder to be optimistic. Because obviously there's like two parts of this. There's the psychological retraining of yourself, but we don't exist in a vacuum. No, we do not. And we are, I think, very dependent. and also easily persuadable by the social context that we exist. Totally.

And, you know, I feel like for the last 10, 20 years now, 10 years for sure, five years for sure, we are just constantly bombarded with negative bad information. Everything that's bad that's going on in the world, which things have been bad in the world and bad things have happened in the world since the beginning of time. Right, but we were not always exposed to it. Every second of the day. And I do wonder, like, how that, sort of the obstacles that puts in the way of someone who's trying to become more optimistic. Big, big obstacles.

I mean, like, you set it yourself, you hit the nail on the head. Our brains were not, like, made to experience this much exposure and stimulation to, first of all, just, like, the sheer amount of whatever it is, good or bad. Like that much information and stimulation and exposure. But it's completely like you said, it's the bad news cycle. And we are living in a 24-7 news cycle. And we know things and we're carrying things and holding things as deeply, you know, feeling humans. Like people that, we have people that deeply care about their own lives, but also the lives of others that are just walking around this world.

And I think you are one of those people, obviously. And what I think is so scary and not what I want. And a big reason why I think I wrote this book and this book is so timely is because what we talked about before, like what happens to the human when we're exposed to that and we don't have the tools to equip ourselves is we go numb. Or again, we might be cynical about something. We might be someone that understands that whatever it is we're seeing or reading is not something we like. and not something good, and we might have thoughts about it. But we're stuck in this idea of cynicism, which actually comes from overwhelm, which I said before. And there's not a lot of agency that you can move forward and take action with that. And I think what... Or like you said earlier, or we turn away.

Or we turn away. So we look away. We go numb. We look away. We say, you know what? I know the news is bad. And it's not making me feel good. And a lot of colleagues, like of mine are just like turn off the news. And I think that's also scary. We need to boundary. But we need to boundary. we cannot go through the world with eyes closed. Like, we still have to know what is going on in order to make change. So it's not about being ignorance is bliss and deciding to put blinders on and know nothing because all of it is too much and too overwhelming. But at the same time, it's not about give it.

We cannot handle all of it like we're handling it now. We need to come up with boundaries and tools to equip ourselves on how. And part of that is regulation tools. I know this sounds, it's such a buzzword now to talk about self-regulation and nervous system regulation, but the brain doesn't prioritize growth. It prioritizes safety. And we are all walking around this world for the most of us, not feeling safe. Yeah. What are some of those regulation tools? I mean, everyone has their own unique tools, but for me, breathing tools really help. And one in particular, the four-seven-eight breath, which has a lot of science behind it. It helps to regulate the parasympathetic nervous system. And again, this doesn't change the circumstance or what you're worried about.

There's also this part of the book that's called The Way to the World Syndrome, which a lot of us have right now. But what it does is it gives your body and your brain a sort of reset from the rumination and the negative worry loop that we are now constantly in. You know, ancestrally, I think our ancestors might have gone through fight, flight, freeze mode, like once a week when they were like hunting. Yeah. There's like research to show we're literally in it all the day long. But yeah, breathing techniques are really big for me. I know it sounds, this is just me, but music is a big tool for me. It always has been.

And just like moving to it. So like I do something in the morning called wake up and dance. It's the first thing I do to like regulate myself. That's cool. I mean, that just made me think that like I do think that having kids has helped this like and having them now at this age. Yeah. know, Teddy's two and Charlie's five.

And spending time with them, like, I think when I tell people, I was spending time with my kids, because the most common question I get and the most common question, like, we get from listeners, too, is like, how do you stay hopeful? Like, we actually joke about it now because when we ask for listener questions, inevitably, 10 of the questions are like, what gives you hope? And then there's people who are just like, I've been following politics for like 10, 15 years, and I can't do it anymore. and I'm like, how do you do it?

I can't do it. What should I do? And when I say like, oh, I hang out with my kids, I think people take it as, oh, will you avoid politics now or you turn away and you hang with it? But like, it's the actual, it's the playing. Right. You know, and it's the dancing around with them. Or it's like chasing them around.

It's joking about things with them. And it's not just taking your mind off it because my mind is not taken off of it. I'm not reading the news, but my mind's still thinking about it. Right. But it's like, oh, the movement, the hang, the laughter. Like the oxytocin, you get from those like hugging your children. Right. That kind of stuff really does make a difference.

It does. And it's actually giving you the tools to equip yourself to be able to keep staying engaged. That's the part where it's like this is an and situation. And we, I don't have to remind my clients or patients. I don't have to remind people to worry or to, right, right? Because we all do. It's part of our human existence. I do actually have a practice where I have people contain their worry.

They literally schedule worry into their day. into their schedule, into their calendar. Because it's like, yes, people are always like, what? You tell people to wear it. I'm like, I don't have to tell you to worry you're going to worry. And anyone that promises you a life without worry is selling you snake oil. Right. We're going to worry.

It's part of our existence. But like containing it is really, really such an important practice to develop because just floating worry all day long completely derails your everyday life. And it will. It's what's happening to all of us. It's distracting. can't make decisions. It paralyzes us from any forward movement because one worry comes in while we're working on something that we have to get done or show up as, you know, a colleague or a mother or a friend or whatever, all the roles we play. Another worry comes in in the middle of it.

We forgot what we were doing. And now we have all these open files in our brain. Right. A lot of open tabs. A lot of open tabs. A lot of open tabs. And a lot of this is coming up with tools. to stay engaged rather than look away. And I think that's the part that's really important right now because change is only made when someone actually understands and can imagine that something can change and something better is out there. And I think a lot of people,

they can understand being angry about something or just being exhausted and overwhelmed because it just keeps coming and coming. And the idea of allowing yourself to imagine a possibility that's different seems indulgent and silly. Yeah. Some people think it's silly.

But it's survival. Yeah. You have to imagine. Your brain does not put forth energy or attention to come up with solutions, whether that's something personal or more global for you if it doesn't think that it's a possibility. So we have to train ourselves to live in possibility more too. One example of this, just in the political realm that we deal with a lot, is people saying, well, what if we don't have a, what if he tries to steal the election?

you know, what if he tries to steal the next election? What if he tries to cancel the midterms? What if there's ICE agents by the polls, all that kind of stuff? And I've really thought this through kind of from the perspective of what you've written about, which is like, okay, let's just take it one step at a time here. We don't know. Right. It's not like, don't worry, he won't steal the elections.

Right. Or they'll definitely be elections. I can't tell you that. I don't know. But how would you act differently right now if you knew that there would be elections or there wouldn't be elections? Right. Right? Like what would you do differently? And the question is, what can we do to make sure that we, what steps can we take to make sure that we do have elections that we can protect them as best as possible? And then once we do those steps, what else are we going to do? Right. Like we just have to move forward, do all the other work as if we're going to have an election, we got to go convince people, persuade people, get people out to vote, all that kind of stuff. Because if worrying about the fact that we may not have an election or that he might try to do something prevents us from doing the work we need to win that election, then that's

That's not, that's doubly, that's doubly bad. It's asking yourself, when you are ruminating over something that is a worry, it's asking yourself not to put away that thought as a possibility, because it might be a possibility. You might be right. It might be possibility. But what other possibilities exist as well? Like, it is up to us to ask ourselves that question. Like, this may be the case, and it's not the whole story.

We don't know how it unfolds. What other versions of the story could be to allow ourselves to have that possibility? And at the same time, you know, in visual imagery and science-based visualization, I think a lot of people understand it to people think it's like just about manifestation and sort of visualizing what you want. But actually what the science shows and what I write about in the book too is we also must visualize the setbacks. We must visualize what we might do when the things don't turn out our way. Like you visualize like a circumstance in all its possibilities. And that doesn't mean that you're like putting bad juju out there. It's being prepared.

Right. And it's understanding back to that root of, you know, optimism is not about denying the dark. It's about giving us the tools to see in it when it is dark. Like optimism is not about knowing with certainty. It's about what you do know is that whatever might come you'll meet it. And that's based on your own personal historical resiliency. That's where the optimism is cultivated from. You've been through hard things before.

Offline is brought to quince. A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and like. last. That's where Quince shines. Premium fabrics, considered design, and everyday essentials that feel effortless to wear and dependable, even as the seasons change. Quince has the everyday essentials I love with quality that lasts. Lightweight cashmere sweaters, short sleeve Mongolian cashmere polos, linen bottoms and shorts, teas and 100% pima cotton and European jersey linen. These are the versatile pieces that make a wardrobe actually work season to season. Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy

retail stores, just quality clothing. Their clothing is rated between 4.5 and 5 stars by thousands of people wearing it every day, and they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. You know what? I'm going to give it a 5. I'm going to give the 5 stars. None of this 4.5 to 5. It deserves it. Everything I've gotten from there, I love.

Love Quince. The light cashmere sweater. Go check out, quins. I've loved the poloes. I've loved the shorts. They have so many, they have rugs. They have sheets. It's a good. Go check Quinn's before you buy it somewhere else. Just go on the website. Check it out. Come on. Right now, go to quince.com slash offline for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it.

And you will. Now available in Canada, too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to QI-N-C-E.com slash offline for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash offline. If you guys like Pod Save America, please consider subscribing to our Friends of the Pod program. So Friends of the Pod get lots of stuff. You get more Pod Save America.

That includes our new show, which is called Pod Save America-only friends. It's where Den gets naked. where Dan gets full frontal nudity, but mostly it's a bi-weekly subscription-exclusive podcast that is basically Positive America, but behind a paywall. So it's a little bit looser and more fun, and it's Love It, and Favreau, and me and Fyfer,

and then other crooked hosts, we go deeper on the news and cover more stories. You also get Open Taps, which is a weekly behind-the-scenes newsletter from the show, plus you get ad-free episodes, your favorite crooked podcasts, and all kinds of other stuff. Dan will come to your house and clean it once every quarter.

Yeah, clothes. Dan is very busy, clothes only. But along with just getting great content, becoming a friend of the pod, joining our subscription community is the number one thing you can do to help us grow to help independent progressive media. So if you're ever thought about doing it, if you ever wanted more Pod Save America, consider going to crooked.com slash friends and becoming a friend of the pod. So you have a quiz in the book that helps people understand how optimistic they are? Yes. Can you talk about how the questions are connected to optimism and sort of what you've learned from the people who've taken the quiz?

So the quiz actually is adapted or inspired by a sort of more research-based scientific test that Martin Seligman came up with, who's like the founder of positive psychology. And what always surprised me in that is people that take the quiz that think they're optimistic, oftentimes come back less optimistic. And people that think that they're more pessimistic go in and take the quiz and go in and take the quiz and, go, whoa, I'm so much more optimistic than I thought. And I think that's because most people have been defining optimism and their understanding of it in the wrong way. And I think the part that's interesting for me, and I don't want to spoil it too much for anyone that's going to take the quiz. It is in the book. And NPR just put out the quiz today digitally. So if anyone wants to take it and check it out. What is interesting is optimism really lives on a continuum. And I don't

believe after doing this work that you are either an optimist or a pessimist. You exist on this continuum and in some circumstances or aspects of life you are more prone to being optimistic than others. And it's really like about seasons and aspects of life. Like for me, medical health stuff, I am so low in optimism. Like I am really like probably clinically low when it comes to health and like, you know, medical stuff. Whereas, you know, other things and even things, and even things, that are more macro, I tend to be more optimistic or, you know, even smaller things like when you make the wrong turn or you, you know, setbacks at work-related or whatever those are that are like also skill-related. Like I tend to be more optimistic. This is sort of, sort of a spoiler, but a little,

a little tidbit. But really interesting to see how people qualify good things that happen to them and bad things that happen to them. Like, are they personal? Which one? Yeah, that's the part. This is what I was going to bring up because I am someone who took it who thinks. I've always thought I was incredibly optimistic. I took it and I got a 14, which falls in the 12 to 17 category that says you are naturally quite optimistic, but still take a pessimistic view of the world some of the time.

And so I thought about it and I went back to the quiz. And part of what I think I scored lower on some has less to do with my outlook on the world and more to do with my own self-confidence. Yes. Which is an aspect to optimism that I hadn't thought about before. So it's like when you, you know, did you make everyone laugh because you're really funny or because everyone was having a good time? Exactly. I would naturally be like, oh, everyone is having a good time because I'm no comedic genius.

And I would not have thought that has to do with optimism. And it does. And it's really about the three Ps of optimism, if you will. It's like one of the peas is personalization. And so what we find is people. that score higher and optimism are more readily able to accept responsibility for like good things that happen personally like they had a part in that because of their own skill or um you know their own actions where a lot of people and this is where i score low too and i think it's really

interesting um but yes and then the same people will attribute um you know if you're in a more pessimistic score, you will attribute, like, when something bad happens, you take a lot of personal accountability. Like, this happened because of me. Yeah. You know, we, my team didn't do a good job because, like, I didn't do my part as well as I should have. And the flip is true, too. So someone that's more optimistic might see it as like, well, you know, maybe we were all having, like, a tough time or a bad day or, you know, I worked as hard as I could, but these other, like, circumstances that are outside of me also come into play and have a reason for the impact of the result. Yeah.

But, you know, a lot of people are surprised by that because when something good happens or a win happens, they're like, oh, it was good luck. Or I was at the right place at the right time. Or, yeah, everyone was having a good time. Or the opener was really funny. Or, like, someone told a story before and, like, prepped our. everyone for a good time or everyone was drinking. Yeah.

Whatever that is, instead of saying, like, I tell a great story or I'm funny. It's funny because when on the questions about when the bad things happen, I think that's where I'm more optimistic and I'm like, I get it. Like, I might have screwed something up, but also. It doesn't mean something about my identity. Yeah, there's a lot of different things. But when a good thing happens, I really feel like we are taking any credit for it. And that actually makes a lot of sense.

And it's where a lot of people, like, that was my, that was the big surprising part of this test with people that kind of generally thought they were optimistic. That is the place in which they sort of, the score tipped them a little bit lower. It is funny because Emily took the quiz we were talking about this today and she scored very optimistic. And it now makes sense to me because Emily is much better at being like, I'm good at this and I'm good at this and I'm not as good at this and that's okay. And it's very uncomfortable because our brains tend to like really prioritize the things that we're not doing well or that need fixing or that are unfinished. Like that's just how our brains are. And some people are just better at like really spotlighting the things

they're good at and the skills they have. And it's not like arrogance. It's literally confidence. Yeah, it's confidence. It's confidence. Yeah. And that's that's a key ingredient to optimism. It is. I want to sort of end by bringing it back to parenting. Yep. How do you think about modeling optimism for your kids when A, you're not always feeling at yourself and B, the world is the world. Yeah. Well, I love how you said modeling, because I think that in itself is sort of the key there.

I think a lot of people think, and myself included, like, we're so pressured into when something happens, like my kid comes home with something that happened to them at school or like a story or something they read, not read yet. Well, my older one, yes. You know, or kids were talking about something or something happened on the playground,

whatever it is, whatever struggled they're going through, or something was hard, you know, that they had to do in sports or school, we feel pressured that we have to have this, like, perfectly packaged response for them in that moment of, like, this is how you deal with it. But kids don't learn from that. They learn from modeling. And so if you are someone that is working on your optimism and optimistic outlook, and now you might know something like, oh, confidence is a really big part of increasing optimism.

And, like, one of those aspects is when something goes really well, you can't unsee that now that you know that. And if you are able in the moment, maybe before something went well in front of your kid, you're just like someone congratulates you on something, you know? And you're like, yeah, just, you know, it was being at the right place at the right time. You might say something differently now.

And they hear that. They look at it. And so really kids learn from modeling. And I think one of the biggest things that we can do is our language, is really understand what kind of language we're using. Are we using language that is saying, this is permanent. I think that's one of the biggest ones.

This is the one, like, I think we can try to tackle one thing at a time. And for me, like, we have so much going on. This permanence piece is what I try to be mindful of for myself. And while I'm being mindful of it myself, I try to see if my kids are listening. And they are because now they call me out on stuff and I call them out on stuff. But it's like when you're trying to, the other day, and I wrote about this in the book, it's such a mundane, silly example. but I was trying to open a bottle of pasta sauce.

And I was just about to say it. I can never open those things. And I literally said out loud, after two tries, like, I can never open these things. I'm never going to be able to open this sauce. And our kitchen is one of those kitchens that's like, you know, part of the family room in Dio, my son, who the one you know, you know both. But Dio looked around because we've had this conversation before.

And I think at that age, like four years old is when I started. Like that is an age where they start saying language like that a lot. And it's just developmentally appropriate. But because I'm like, I'm trying to work on this and I like also show them the process of me trying to work on it. Like I just said it. I'm not hiding that from them and going. And he, I hear him go, mom, don't say you can't. Breathe three times and try for another seven times.

He got like seven times and just keep trying. And I was like, oh. And I was like, you're right. I am not able to open this right now. And I'm going to keep trying. And maybe I still won't be able to open it right now, but I'm not going to say I'm never going to be able to. It's the same way of, you know, when you're driving with them and I don't know,

you miss a turn or late and it's always at those moments. And you start, it's just like how are you or, you know, he's learning to ride a bike, you know, and one of those things, it's like when he learned to tie his shoes, he was so adamant about it because he's the little brother. And it's just that language of like, I can never. I can. And then they learn that they can and you remind them of that. And you yourself, however you are going through struggle.

And I share that with them a lot. I mean, I think partly because I'm pretty open book. And of course, I have boundaries. They don't need to know all of our struggles. But I'm not a parent that, like, hides that from them or shoves things underneath a rug. I make many mistakes all day long. And I feel so bad about them a lot of times when they're asleep, of course. I'll look at Alex and be like, should we wake them up?

Because like, I yell, I did this today, I did that today. It wasn't great. But I remember the next morning, there's always room for repair. And the repair part, that's the modeling part that is so important for them to see. So if you're working on yourself and you're trying to have an optimistic outlook or hopefully if you are reading the book and like there's a lot of these little moments that are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. And the whole point of it is like once you see something, you can't unsee it.

And so it's sort of programs into you. And if you start sort of doing that or you're even reading a book, like even just having this outside, like my kids have it in their room now. And they're like, we're working on optimism. Like, even just that. Modeling. Like, what are we doing? The permanence point is so interesting to me

and something I think about when this is a maybe disconnected example, but I think it might not be. Charlie knows enough about Trump now, right? Because Dad talks about Trump all the time. So he finally asked about it. And because, you know, he's watching all these shows now where there's good guys and bad guys.

He's like, oh, so Trump is bad. And then everyone else is good or, you know, and I was like, look, Trump does bad things. Everyone can do bad things and can do good things and they can be a good person or bad. But you are not, because I don't want him to think. It's not about Trump. Right. Like, I don't care about that. But I don't want him to think that the condition of being bad or a bad guy or a villain or all the shit he sees on television now is a permanent state.

Because that means that for him, he's going to think either I am good or I am bad and that like I don't have the agency to change and that people don't have the agency to change. And I want him to and Teddy too. I want them to think that like that it is not a permanent condition on whether it's the president, whether it's you, whether it's anyone. Right. Like we're all sort of we can we can work on things. And we're all human. Yes. And I think that's part of it because that I think that's so important, especially in this age, you know, I see it with my own kids.

And one of the places that I feel like really a lot of worry about is like their relationship to perfectionism. And just like when mistakes are made or when things happen, they immediately are like, identify it as part of them of like, am I bad or am I good? And that's that piece of it. And you're right. Like I think that's so, that's amazing that you're even thinking about it at this age. But this is a really good age to start like understanding nuance and continuum and, you know, what you do. and how you behave and either if it's a mistake or if it's on purpose, all these things, it's not like your cemented identity.

Yes. Yeah. No. That's a good place to leave it. Thank you for come on. This is a great conversation. I'm glad we guys to do this. Me too.

And the book is the power of real optimism. Deepakotra. Thank you so much. Go out and get it. Go out and get it. And then I was going to say you'll feel more optimistic, but no, you'll know how to work on yourself and become more optimistic. Yeah.

You'll truly understand what optimism is. That's right. And it's a work in progress. I'll see it, T-Ball tomorrow. As always, if you have comments, questions, or guest ideas, email us at offline atcrucid.com. And if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad-free episodes of offline and Podsave America, exclusive content and more, go to cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with John Favreau YouTube channel.

Don't forget to follow Cricket Media on Instagram, TikTok, and the other ones for original content, community events, and more. Offline is a Cricket Media production. It's written and hosted by me, John Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilich Frank. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jerich Centeno is our sound editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seagland.

Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Dilan Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episode. episodes as videos every week. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you guys like Pod Save America, please consider subscribing to our Friends of the Pod program. So Friends of the Pod get lots of stuff. You get more Pod Save America. That includes our new show, which is called Pod Save America only friends. It's where Dan gets naked. Where Dan gets full frontal nudity, but mostly it's a biweekly subscription exclusive podcast. It is basically Pod Save America, but behind a pay wall. So it's a little bit looser and more

fun and it's love it and Favre and me and Fyfer and then other Cricot host we go deeper on the news and cover more stories. You also get open tabs which is a weekly behind the scenes newsletter from the show. Plus you get ad-free episodes of your favorite crooked podcast and all kinds of other stuff. Dan will come to your house and clean it once every quarter.

Yeah, Cloth. Dan is very busy. Clothes only. But along with just getting great content, becoming a friend of the pod, joining our subscription community is the number one thing you can do to help us grow to help independent progressive media. So if you're ever thought about doing it, if you ever wanted more Pots of America. Consider going to crooked.com slash friends and becoming a friend of the pod.