Offline with Jon Favreau - The 19-Year-Old Helping Gen Z Log Off

Episode Date: July 3, 2022

For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

I mean, you had this quote in an interview with St. Louis Public Radio that I can really relate to. You said, I wish that I knew a time when I could be bored. Can you say more about that? Absolutely. I come from a family. My dad is one of five. My mom is one of six. And they always would tell these vast stories and these grand stories about like jumping off the roof, being Mary Poppins or just kind of like running around tinkering with things. And to me, that is so foreign. And that makes me really upset.

And my mom would always say, it's because we were bored. What else were we supposed to do? And I look back at my own experience in my own childhood, and I didn't have those experiences because I never was forced to be bored. I never was able to just have a second where I thought, oh gosh, like, I don't know what to do. Should I pick up a book? Should I go outside? Because there always is something there to do. And I made a comment to my co-director yesterday about this

is, you know, we were born with an iPhone in hand and now is the time we're really calling for action to put the phone down. I'm Jon Favreau. Welcome to Offline. Hey, everyone. My guest today is Emma Lemke, the 19-year-old founder of the Log Off movement. I'm 41. I didn't join Facebook until after college. And it wasn't until I worked in the White House that I found Twitter, my drug of choice, and signed up for Instagram, which was just a fun way to connect with a small group of friends.

Of course, this was all before scrolling through social media became like trying to escape quicksand made of dog shit. But even then, the warning signs were there, and it took me years to fully understand what being too online has done to my mental health. All of this is to say that I cannot imagine navigating social media as a child or as a teen. I can't imagine what it would have done to my mental health if I had been on Instagram or TikTok in high school or even middle school. And now that I'm a parent, I've found myself dreading the day that Charlie learns how to use an iPad or an iPhone. Which is why we're talking today about growing up in the age of social media. Emma is a rising sophomore at Washington University. In June of

2020, when she was still in high school, she started the Log Off Movement, a project dedicated to helping teens develop a healthier relationship with social media. She started this when she realized that her relationship with Instagram and her phone was destroying her mental health and contributing to an eating disorder. At first, she looked for resources and advice from other teens to help her rethink her relationship with their phone. When she couldn't find any, she decided to build a community herself. Today, Emma has taken that work even further, spending her time advocating for state and federal legislation to protect her peers online. I invited her on Offline because I wanted a new perspective on this show. One from someone who grew up in this era, who never knew the world

before social media, but is now determined to be more offline. As you'll hear, Emma is brilliant and compelling. She taught me so much about Gen Z's relationship with the internet, what it's doing to their mental health, how follower ratios can affect individual self-worth, and new apps that are helping her generation develop a healthier relationship with social media. I walked away from my interview with Emma realizing that we need more people her age in our conversations about the internet, because in this extremely online era, they're the experts in the room. As always, if you have any questions, comments, or complaints,

feel free to email us at offline at crooked.com. And do please rate, review, and share the show. Here's Emma Lemke. Emma Lemke, welcome to Offline. Thank you so much for having me. So it's taken me about 40 years to fully understand what being too online can do to your mental health. Though for me, social media didn't really become a thing until after I graduated from college. You're 19 and have already started an initiative called the Log Off Movement in June of 2020.

I guess my first question is, how did you figure it out? You know, that is a great question that has taken me a while to kind of articulate and think through, but it really did start with social media addiction and kind of getting to terms and coming to terms with my own struggles with my mental health in relation to using social media. So I got my phone and a lot of my devices in the sixth grade, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, everything kind of leading up to these bigger apps that were more mainstream. And initially, you know, going onto these apps and platforms, I fell in love with being able to connect from everyone to like Kim Kardashian, to Olive Garden, to all of my friends, you know, there was that like allure, but like very quickly that wore off for me. You know,

two to three months in, I began spending five to six hours a day mindlessly scrolling. As someone who's predisposed to having mental health struggles with a generalized anxiety disorder and OCD, I was entering these apps, having a lot of these negative feelings about myself and these anxieties amplified. And then I left just feeling worse. And then another kind of facet of that is as a young woman going through this incredibly important developmental period in my life, I found myself descending into these rabbit holes for hours, starting with a video saying, you know, how can you eat best leading into how can you restrict calories, how to disorder eat that led to my own disordered eating and eating disorders.

So it really did take a huge toll on my mental health and physical health. And then getting to ninth grade, I just hit a breaking point. After spending hours and years on these platforms, I remember there was one buzz in the living room or in my room. It was my phone. And I had that Pelovian response just instantly grab for it. And I finally asked myself, how is it that I'm an individual who values control, that really does want to understand what's happening in my life, and there's this huge device that has so much control over me, and that keeps me in this harmful loop? Why can't I get out? And that one moment and that spark led me down a path to where I am today with Log Off, where I began researching, I began looking for those studies, understanding why it was that I was like a dog responding to

these notifications. And then eventually all of that led me to the idea that I needed to create a space for teens to really engage with one another about this topic. But it really did, again, stem from my own experience and my own amplified anxieties and depression around social media apps. You know, we talked a lot about Twitter and Facebook on this show. What was it like growing up as a young person in the age of Instagram? I feel like that app has a special set of challenges. You know, it's very different. And I think that you can ask someone too, who's in sixth grade and where I was about TikTok. I feel like each generation now really has their own app that amplifies a lot of anxieties and issues with

mental health. For me, it was Instagram. So Instagram came into fruition and really gained traction within my generation, I think, because it allowed for that level of connection. But it also allowed for a level of, you know, curation. I think Instagram was this highlight reel that a lot of young girls could buy into. You saw a ton of edited pictures, You would see what your friends were doing. And for me, at least I would think, oh my goodness, like everyone else is in like Barcelona or is like living the best life. What am I doing? And I think what people began to do because of Instagram was shift from living to living to post. So it really began to turn into this like scenario where I'd go out with friends

and it wasn't just to interact and to be with them. It was to later take pictures to post on Instagram to then have that curated online lifestyle. So I think with Facebook and Twitter, where it is a little bit more based on I feel like dialogue to an extent, Instagram became that like tangible representation of what you have and what you very obviously don't have and how to kind of lead a life more so to curate and to amplify for other people to see. I've heard you talk before about how FOMO, fear of missing out, for those who don't know, is sort of what led you to really use a lot of social media. And I thought about this a lot

because I've always had that since I was a kid, right? I never wanted to miss anything that my friends were doing. But like I said, I didn't have social media until after college, but I know younger people now, they're in the situation where they can see on Instagram that other friends of theirs are hanging out together and then it makes them feel bad that they're not hanging out and I was like what would my life have been like growing up if all day long

I was constantly reminded of what my friends were doing what people I knew were doing that I wasn't a part of that like what does that do to your mental health it has a disastrous effect. And my friends and I joke about it all the time. Cause yeah, with snap maps, with find your friends, like I know where all of my friends are at almost every point in the day. And I think that Tristan Harris said it perfectly in like the social dilemma, like never before have we been in a place in with connecting with each other and just being a part of the human race where we have so much feedback about what we are not doing and how people interact with us and how they engage with us never before have we been able to really like quantify our worth in such an easy way so like you said it can be so overwhelming. And I can't even imagine as younger and younger

kids and audiences begin to engage on these platforms, what that mental toll is. Because for me, I was just in sixth grade. And you would think that even a middle schooler could kind of say to a degree, well, I have my friend group. I know that they like me. They're not consciously excluding me. But again, it is so harmful to be able to get that information at such a rapid speed at any point in the day and to be able to really see this tangible manifestation of what you're not a part of. Because, again, social media, I think, can be this really cool tool for connection and allow you to find communities. But what do you do when it also does show you exactly what you don't have and exactly where you are on where you can't really be. So it's a dangerous kind of line to walk. What else do older people not understand about Gen Z's relationship with the internet and social media?

That is a loaded question. I think there's a lot. in conversations with my grandparents, to my parents, to educators, to even people in the space who are older, is in helping people understand that technology and social media is a tool for self-expression. And that is truly why I think a lot of teens and kids and Gen Z remain. Because I think from the outside looking in, you see, oh my gosh, Frances Haugen released these papers that show how much, you know, social media can negatively impact your mental health, especially as a young woman. You know, there are studies that show that there are these addictive techniques in place in these apps. And like, how is it that still

kids want to go in and populate these online spaces. I can understand from my parents' perspective and a lot of these older generations kind of like understanding that that makes no sense. But what a lot of people within my community and log off and of my friends and myself and my own story try to articulate, and I think it can be hard to, is that social media really is a tool for self-expression. It is baked into the DNA of our generation. We can use it to connect. I can use it to explore enjoying musical theater more. And I can use it to explore things from, you know, recipes to like cultural groups. You know, it really does allow for this open canvas for me to paint and explore. And like, that is something that is so beautiful that a lot of other generations haven't had access

to. But at the same time, it really can turn into this harmful parasitic relationship that is incredibly detrimental to kids and to our generation. So I think that that's why there's a lot of power in having these Gen Z-led conversations is because we have the perspective both as individuals who understand the connective and the expressive capabilities of technology and social media, but we also have the understanding that it can harm because a lot of our stories are of harm and are of depression and anxiety. And it really is just trying to figure out with those stories and experiences and understandings, how can we move forward and create healthier habits so that the next generation and kids that are growing up right now don't have to go through these stories of harm and can really amplify the

benefits and those expressive capabilities baked into these apps. It seems like there's two big problems. One that we've just talked about is sort of the mental toll that just being on social media all the time takes on you. But it also seems to me like it's just really time consuming to put that much work into creating and curating your online persona and that there's an opportunity cost there. Yeah.

And that's funny that you say opportunity cost because I remember when I took econ for the first time in high school, I was like, oh my goodness, this makes sense. Because you're like, it's always a trade-off. You know, I spent hours and hours when I was like heavily addicted counting likes, counting followers. You can ask any teen who's like pretty heavily addicted on social media, like, how do you feel about your follower ratio? And to anyone from the outside, you'd be like, what is your ratio? But it's this understood thing that you want to have more people following you than how many people you follow.

And it's things like that. I don't even know that. And my friends and everyone I really know that are heavily addicted, we joke about it. And we're like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I have to make sure my ratio is good. But it's in those kind of quips and comments that you really see, like you said, how much time and energy and kind of just mental, mental energy that is kind of funneled into these apps. And it is exhausting. And that's one of the reasons why I really love speaking to other teens and other adults about this is because I genuinely like cannot imagine having gone down that rabbit hole and having spent so long, so many hours,

having that continue into high school. And there are still so many teens that do that. And it gets to a point where it is taking such a huge toll on your mental and physical well-being because of, like you said, just that piece that requires so much energy and care that can be funneled into hundreds of other outlets to reap the same benefits, whether that is to find a community or whether that is to express yourself. There are other ways to go about doing that without having to incur those huge timely costs and mental costs. And not just the time that could be spent on productive ends, but time that could be

spent just doing nothing. I mean, you had this quote in an interview with St. Louis Public Radio that I can really relate to. You said, I wish that I knew a time when I could be bored. Can you say more about that? Absolutely. I come from a family. My dad is one of five. My mom is one of five. My mom is one of six. And they always would tell these

vast stories and these grand stories about like jumping off the roof, being Mary Poppins, or just kind of like running around tinkering with things. And to me, that is so foreign. And that makes me really upset. And my mom would always say, it's because we were bored. What else were we supposed to do? And I look back at my own experience in my own childhood, and I didn't have those experiences because I never was forced to be bored. I never was able to just have a second where I thought, oh, gosh, like, I don't know what to do. Should I pick up a book?

Should I go outside? Because there always is something there to do. And I made a comment to my co-director yesterday about this is, you know, we were born with an iPhone in hand. And now is the time we're really calling for action to put the phone down. if I got it at a younger age, because at least starting like before the sixth grade, I knew how to run around on a playground. I knew how to interact with other kids. Like I had that exposure, but what do you do when kids are getting iPads at like one or two? And that is what they learn to grab instantly when they're bored. You're telling them and you're taking away that space where you can really learn to think and creatively just reason with the world around you. And honestly, that's something that I have

to catch myself doing a lot is not reaching for the phone. Yesterday, I went on a walk, literally just on the beach and made myself think and made myself kind of reflect because I don't do that often enough. And I don't think a lot of other people, especially in my generation, had the chance to do that when it was needed. Yeah. I mean, you know, I have felt incredibly addicted to social media, especially over the last couple of years, especially during the pandemic. And I now have an almost two-year-old. And I just remember I came home last night and i was like so online i could tell that it made me anxious all day and i had like you know an hour and a

half with him before he went to bed and instead of sitting in the house and like putting on a screen i was like you know what like let's take a walk i'll take you to go get ice cream we left the house i i put my phone away he didn didn't have any screen. And the two of us just walked down the street, had a nice little walk to get an ice cream cone. And I'm like, it's such a pleasurable experience to just be present with someone else. And it made me both grateful for the experience, but also like, oh God, what's it going to be like when he gets a phone? I want him to know what this is like for as long as possible. I mean, how do you feel like the pandemic specifically affected your generation's relationship with social media?

Because like the thesis of this show, one of the reasons I started is because I do think all of these problems existed well before the pandemic in terms of social media addiction. But I do think that the isolation that came with the pandemic made everything worse. Yeah, I say that COVID was both a savior for the digital well-being space and a really huge inhibitor. And I say that it was a savior because for the first time, I felt like my peers and the people around me were seeing how detrimental

staying within these online spaces can really be, especially when it's replacing interaction. Because I talk with a lot of my members and log off about this is, you know, screen time is not all bad, obviously. I still have social media. I still use my devices. But it's just whether that is like active or passive. And for me, you know, I use these devices as a way to gain, but not to replace in-person connection. and I think for the first time during COVID we really saw like wow technology cannot replace in-person connection like there is something that is so like you said beautiful and just like peaceful about being with someone without a device

purely just because you want to exist with them in that moment, have some conversation, or even just to be there and present. There is something that is so humane about that, that no technology going forward will ever be able to replace. And I think that that is what was echoed in a lot of my conversations on Zoom, on FaceTime, on social media during the pandemic. For the first time, I had been screaming about it, you know, for years at my school saying like, please get off your phone when you're in a conversation with me. But it took that pandemic for a lot of these close relationships that I'm in for those individuals within them to just say, Emma, like, I get it now. I hate this. I would

give anything to have a five minute conversation with you face to face. So there was that huge shift, I think, in understanding that social media can't replace connection in that specific way. But then also, again, it was this incredibly difficult period where what do you do when that is your only way to connect. And I think a lot of my friends and I echo this kind of coming out of it in college too, is that I, I was so engrossed. Like I was so consumed in all things technology and it took a huge toll on my mental health. I was constantly on my online school program. I was on Zoom all day. I was then trying to connect with my friends and maintain relationships through Instagram and through FaceTime. And I think that for a lot of teens out there and in Gen Z, we all just step back after and we're like, wow, we lost years of

friendship. We lost years of conversation because we were stuck in these online spaces that were not meant to really create meaningful dialogue. So again, it is twofold, but I always do lean into at least the positives that came out of it, specifically that reprioritization of in-person connection over online connection. So I imagine it must have helped fuel the growth of the log off movement that you started. Can you tell me more about the movement? Like you said that you started it around when you were in ninth grade. And what were the goals for the movement when you started it? And tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, so in ninth grade, when I had that breaking point and when I reached that moment of just complete fatigue, I did my research because I and you can joke with a lot of my family and friends are like, of course you did that because I just needed to know what was happening in my brain to cause this. And I looked up everything from is social media bad to like, what are the algorithms at place that are working against me? And everything that I found proved and both affirmed that my

negative kind of emotions and experiences with social media were caused by my increased usage of these apps. But also what it showed me is, oh my goodness, there are no teen voices that are in this space right now. And that's a little problematic when we are the experts, when we're the ones that have grown up with this. And that's kind of what propelled me into developing the project, having the idea for Log Off in ninth grade, sitting on it for, I think it was two or three years, and then launching it in June of 2020 and just saying there needs to be a community of teens, a movement by teens for teens, where we can come together. We can talk about the multifaceted nature of social media and really promote the healthier

usage of it. Because again, we are the ones that grew up with it during this incredibly important developmental period in our life. We are the ones that have experienced great harm, but we also understand that there are benefits and there's this connective expressive capability within most of these apps. So just working to amplify the benefits while mitigating its harm and having that conversation be led by the experts. That was really the point of the Log Off movement and launched that with

a blog, with the idea for a team leadership council, and then just some like smaller initiatives and project ideas like a character ed and a female initiative. And I thought, you know, I'm going to be so lucky to get to Mississippi. I'm from Alabama. Like, oh, if I can bridge that. And the second applicant was from the Philippines. And I thought, wow, okay, let me take a step back. And that was the moment that I realized that this is not an issue that is tied to any geographic region, any race, any ethnicity, any sexual orientation. Like this is an issue that spans the human race. This is an issue we all are feeling together. So opened up the Teen Leadership Council some more. And we've really grown over the last two years to include other mediums and ways for teens that come to us to find community and to express themselves, to find healthier habits, to promote digital well-being, and to just feel a part of this larger conversation as an active participant and not just as a kid that is being victimized.

So what is promoting digital well-being look like? Are you challenging people to like do digital detoxes? I know that you're not sort of challenging people to log off entirely, but just to sort of promote healthier social media use. Like what does all that look like? So we do that in a lot of different ways. And I think it's important that you noted, yeah, we're not saying log off completely because I would be such a hypocrite

because I'm still on Instagram. I'm still on Twitter. And, you know, we say that because we want individuals to mentally log off for a second like I had to with that Pallovian response and that buzz and just ask, how am I interacting with my apps? How am I benefiting? How am I being harmed?

And how do I want to move forward so that I have this healthy relationship? And technology is being used by me and is not using me. I am in control. Having that is really, I think, the North Star in a lot of our work. So in promoting digital well-being and promoting those healthier habits, how we do that is through a multitude of kind of different means because it is so based on the individual. I always say this, like you can go from the bottom up, you can do bottom up processing or top down. Top down is reform, bottom up is let's talk about individually how we can set those healthier habits. So we have a digital detox. We have blog posts where people can read about experiences and stories and kind of engage with material to hopefully spark that understanding and reflection. We have a ton of different webinars that we jump on to kind of go through how we and individuals on our team use their devices. I always, you know,

promote like Grayscale and software updates like Habit Lab. But in general, what we mainly do is we just work to uplift conversations because there is such a stigma right now, even within our own generation, surrounding the topic of finding better habits and kind of stepping back that we really just find ourselves trying to enter as many spaces as possible to have these discussions and to really work to get individuals conscious and have them kind of tapped into what these apps are doing to them and how we can mitigate its harms. So that, again, it manifests in a lot of different ways, but we are just really always willing to engage with whatever medium will accomplish that. You talked about regaining control. I think one of the things addiction does in a host of

different ways is whether it's substance abuse, whether it's a social media addiction, is it sort of takes away control. How do you sort of regain a sense of agency when there are these addictive properties of social media? You know, maybe you can share your own experiences and how you've changed your relationship with social media? I always say it is putting levels of friction between you and these addictive devices and techniques. Which again, I could go on and on about how I don't think that it should be on the individual to put in levels of addiction between these addictive pieces of technology. I don't think that there should be this incentive to addict children and users, but that's kind of the reality we live in currently right now.

And it is asking each person what level of friction works for you. For me, I always say to try out an array of different techniques. I do everything from grayscale before exams and tests, which turns your phone completely black and white, the most un-aesthetically pleasing thing in the world, but it gets the job done because you won't want to pick up your phone, to software extensions that will kind of trigger responses. So I put in the Habit Lab from Stanford on my computer.

So every time I enter Instagram, I have to type in, why are you entering? And for me, that's friction because I have to sit back and think, why am I entering? And I'll type in, I want to look at a meme for my sister right now. Or scrolling, maybe I shouldn't do that. And to me, that's just the second that I need to consciously switch and to ask why am I actually here. So those are kind of two devices that I largely use to mitigate the harms of social media. But then also I do kind of engage in preventative measures. So how can I really like create and engage with new

technology that will accomplish everything that social media apps are trying to do, but in a more humane way. So I downloaded Be Real, which is an app that I adore that I can use to engage with my friends without feeling like I'm being addicted and I have to scroll on constantly. How does Be Real work? How does Be Real work? Be Real is amazing. So Be Real is an app that at any point in the day, you'll get a notification and it says it's time to be real. And you have two minutes in that kind of timeframe to take a picture. It will take the front and it will take the back of you or the kind of both sides of that image. And then from there, it will, you'll post it. You can post it to your friends, to your public feed, and there's no on the scroll. You get to scroll through your friends, see a glimpse into their day, which is

what a lot of teens articulate to me of why they're on Instagram is I want to know, like you said, what people are doing. I have FOMO, like I want to know what is happening. And that app provides the moment and glimpse in a day without it being highly edited. You can't edit it without it being highly tailored and without it being this kind of addictive tool that pulls you in like a magnet. That's why I love the app. And I always think it's hilarious. You'll start to notice it if you go into public and see teens. If you see everyone whip out their phone at the same time, be real. And it's kind of making its wave across Generation Z and across all of these other kind of communities. And I think it is because people understand to a degree that being addicted

to devices and being addicted to these technologies can be an incredibly harmful trajectory. So how do we really amplify those benefits while mitigating the harms of those apps? And answer is be real. And answer is you create the technology to not addict. You create the technology to be more humane and kids and teens will follow. You made a great point that it shouldn't be on the individual to create friction between ourselves and social media. Are there policy or legislative solutions that you guys are pushing for? Absolutely. So LogOff has its advocacy arm, which is called Technically Politics. And through Technically Politics, we do a lot of work around legislation to protect kids. My co-founder, Eliza Kopens, and I got together

and created it out of response and out of anger because we both said, how is it that it is profitable to harm children? And how is it that it is profitable to like harm children? And how is it that there are these unregulated digital spaces? Answer is because again, it is a scary scenario and a scary reality where the profits of these big tech companies are being prioritized over the wellbeing of children. So we have leaned into pieces of legislation specifically moving right now in the United States, like AB 2273 in California, the Age-Appropriate Design Code. Those pieces of legislation, specifically that one, works to say that we need to attack and look at the way these apps are designed. We need to ask questions

like, how are kids being harmed? And a solution to that through the code would say, we need to have very high privacy settings by default. And I look at that, and I look at those pieces of legislation, and I throw energy and blood and sweat and tears into advocacy around that. Because I think if I would have had an app that didn't auto scroll, if YouTube wouldn't have kept me looped in, I truly do not think my disorder of eating would have gotten that bad. I don't think I would have had that much anxiety. I would have actually been protected. And that's something as small as stopping an auto scroll or as small as putting that, turning that off by default so it's

smaller designed features like that that are being blocked or shifted or changed that will really produce a better safer online space for children to operate within and we are really backing pieces of legislation wherever they pop up that have that mission and have that flavor. Have you found receptive audiences among lawmakers? Has it become a partisan thing? Has there been resistance from certain corners? What's the state of play? Oh, it is bipartisan, largely bipartisan. That bill is sponsored by both the Republican and Democrat in California right now.

And then also on a national scale, you've got like the Kids Act, which is also a bipartisan piece of legislation. So I think that that shows there's this huge potential to move forward with these pieces of legislation, because on either side of the aisle, no one wants kids to be harmed. Like every senator or staffer that I've spoken to will say like, yeah, like this senator or this congressman has a kid. They don't want this to happen to their kid. And I think that is a huge kind of reason why this is an issue that has grown and expanded and we see movement is because we see more people like

Frances Haugen releasing information that shows how harmful social media can be to just the growth of a child and to the development of a child. So it really is in our best responsibility to move forward and make sure that like your kid and everyone else's kid going forward will inhabit these safer spaces. And I think it's funny, we have had a really nice reception and really great conversations with lawmakers surrounding this issue because I'll go in and I just say, here's my story. The scary thing is this is just me. There are millions of other people that don't have the chance to be talking with you right now. There are millions of other teens that have had experiences of harm, ranging from just feeling more anxious one day to wanting to harm themselves. And there is that spectrum, but no matter where you fall upon it, there should be something within these kind of apps and within these technologies that protect you that are just not there. So we really are working tirelessly to get pieces of legislation passed

like this so that the next generation is protected and we don't have more stories of harm like my own. Do you have advice for parents who are wondering how they can help their children develop a healthier relationship with social media? That is a question I receive so many times. And I think that it makes me incredibly happy that parents are so willing to engage in that material. And I think it shows that there is this panic because parents are navigating as kids are. And, you know, usually it's like riding a bike. Parents know how to steer their child and they know how to assist and support. But I think we all are kids in this regard.

We all are entering these online platforms not really knowing what we're entering in. I'm not really understanding how to best put in those habits and those limits. But luckily, what I'm saying is for the rising generation, more studies are coming out showing possible ways to engage with devices at a younger age that can help in the long run. So what I say to parents is have those honest conversations and let them be as open as possible. I think there is a generational divide that can harm conversations. Like I said earlier, because a lot of energy is put towards shoving kids in the corner and saying, get off your devices. You need to just fully remove yourselves rather than engaging

in productive conversations saying, why are you on these apps? How do you gain? Like, how can I support you as you navigate? I think the tone has to shift in that conversation to be productive. And from a parent's perspective, I think it really is just engaging with an open mind, being curious and nonjudgmental, and then really continuing those conversations, starting at a young age, up until they're in high school, you know, with technology and having different apps and engaging with it in a different way, because it is this ever evolving process. And kids are going to interact with technology in very different ways at very different points in their life. But having a supportive parent there to know that they're not going to judge, but they'll be a

supporter and they're there to help, I think is going to be incredibly important for the next generation to grow up with social media in a better way. What gives you hope that your generation might ultimately figure out a way to log off? Because we're the ones that experience the harm and we do understand and we have had these experiences that the older generations have not engaged with. Again, my mom, who jumped off the roof as Mary Poppins in her childhood, could have never imagined growing up with social media constantly. And I think that there is that divide that makes it incredibly hard to regulate without having teen voices in the mix. But that's where I become really optimistic that my generation can move forward and can really

help assist in remedying this issue is because we did grow up with it at that young age. We understand at least, I think, to a better extent, how to engage in productive conversations with younger generations and what harms those conversations, what hurts them, how to nourish them, so that even when we grow up and even when hopefully one day, you know, my generation and even maybe me have the votes to be able to create these pieces of legislation, that we can look back and talk to younger generations and understand how to create kind of change in the most productive and healthiest way. And that really is going to be listening to younger generations and prioritizing those voices and stories. It will not be in shoving them aside

and victimizing them. Last question I ask all of our guests, what is your favorite way to unplug? That's such, that is such a good question and one that I have really been thinking of. But I think my favorite way to unplug is with a board game and with my family. We are a huge group of competitive board game players. So yesterday there was a heated Yahtzee game and I'll probably do it again tonight. And it's just my way of unplugging, connecting, and then kind of nourishing my competitive spirit. So it checks off all three boxes. I like that. Emma Lemke, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. It is just so inspiring to meet someone in your generation who has, you know, so self-aware about all of the issues that social

media presents and is not just complaining about it, but has actually done the hard work to change people's minds and hopefully help not just your generation, but generations after you have a healthier relationship with technology. So, you know, it's been wonderful to talk to you. And I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. Offline is a Crooked Media production.

It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Austin Fisher. Andrew Chadwick is our audio editor. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis, sound engineer of the show. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Michael Martinez, Andy Gardner-Bernstein, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Sandy Gerard for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, and Amelia Montooth, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.