Offline with Jon Favreau - The Kids Are Not Alright. Is Social Media to Blame?

Episode Date: May 28, 2023

Social media is ubiquitous among young people. But is it safe? Dr. Vivek Murthy, Surgeon General of the United States, joins Offline to break down a new Surgeon General’s Advisory that warns social media may be harmful to children and offers Jon a doctor’s perspective on how to overcome his phone addiction.

Each week on his podcast, Why Is This Happening?, MSNBC's Chris Hayes is joined by uniquely qualified guests to dig deeper into today's most pressing issues like climate change, the threat to women's reproductive rights, and the explosion of artificial intelligence. This week, Chris talks with author Stephen Vladek about the Supreme Court and its shadow docket. It's a conversation that will help you better understand how the court operates and how its procedures affect the country. Search for Why Is This Happening? wherever you're listening now and follow. New episodes every Tuesday.

You know, inside we are not mean-spirited and selfish and inherently angry. I think our true nature is to be kind, to be compassionate, to be generous, to be loving. But we're not always the best versions of ourselves. And so that's what we have to do fundamentally to build a more connected world, is we have to get back to those core values and double down on what really matters. And those values of generosity and service and compassion

and friendship, these are the ones that we need to model for our kids. These are the ones that we need to use as we're thinking about how to design workplaces and schools, as we think about the leaders we support and the policies that we support. They have to be driven fundamentally by these core values. And if they're not, then I worry that we will continue to drift further and further apart. I'm Jon Favreau. Welcome to Offline. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Offline. Another week of the Offline Challenge has come to a close, and I am very excited to be rid of this stupid clown case. But before that, you'll hear a conversation I had with Dr. Vivek Murthy,

the Surgeon General of the United States. Some of you might remember we had Dr. Murthy on back in December of 2021 to talk about pandemic-induced doom scrolling and social isolation. It was one of the most cathartic conversations I've had on this show, mostly because Dr. Murthy brings such empathy and wisdom to everything he does, and he helped me better understand just how important it is to prioritize real, live human connection. This week, he's back to talk about social media and youth mental health. On Tuesday, he released a Surgeon General's advisory on the topic, which stated that despite

near ubiquitous use among young people, there's insufficient evidence to determine if social media use is safe for our kids. In fact, to the surprise of no offline listener, much of the evidence we do have indicates that there is significant reason to be concerned about the harms social media use poses to children. I invited Dr. Murthian to talk more about his findings and ask about actions we can take to make social media safer for young people. I also thought it would be fun to ask the Surgeon General of the United States for a little advice about the offline challenge. We ended up talking about a lot of different challenges. The challenge of raising children in the social media era, of getting control of our own addictions,

and even the challenge of caring about politics while still caring about our mental health. As always, if you have comments, questions, or concerns, please email us at offlineatcrooked.com. And stick around after the interview to hear who won the closest offline challenge yet. Here's Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. Dr. Murthy, welcome back to Offline. Thanks so much, John. It's good to talk to you again. You as well. So last time you were on the show in 2021,

we began a conversation about how being too online is affecting our health that I wanted to continue for a few reasons. The first, which we can get into a bit more later, is that we are currently in the middle of an experiment here at Offline where we are trying to break our phone addictions. Huh. So this is convenient timing. Yeah.

And the second is that you just issued a Surgeon General's Advisory on Social Media and Youth Mental Health. The report starts by saying that Surgeon General's advisories, quote, are reserved for significant public health challenges that require the nation's immediate awareness and action. What made you classify social media use among young people as a significant public health challenge? Yeah, well, here's why, John. You know, social media has become ubiquitous in our lives, right? And if you look at teens, around 95% of them, according to a pupil, are actually looking or are using social media. And it's happening frequently. So two-thirds of teens are using it daily. A third say that they're using social media constantly.

And the number one question that I'm getting from parents around the country, John, whether it's in big cities or small towns, whether it's parents and sometimes grandparents, is the question, is social media safe for my kids? And so that question has been on my mind for a long time. And as we've dug into the data around that, I want to first acknowledge that there's a need for a lot more data here. For platforms that have been around, frankly, for almost two decades here, we don't have as much data as we need and as we should have. And there are some reasons for that. In fact, researchers tell me all the time that they're having a hard time getting full access to the data from technology companies. And I do think that that's a problem. But the data

that is available tells us two things. In answer to the parents' questions of, is this safe for my kids? We do not, in fact, have enough evidence to say that social media is safe for kids. What we do see is a growing body of evidence that social media use is associated with harms, especially when the amount of use is high. So one of the points we raised in the advisory I issued on this topic is that teens who spend more than three hours a day on social media face double the risk of experiencing symptoms of depression and anxiety. And when you consider that the average amount of time that kids are spending on this each day is three and a half hours, you start to see how this can get really concerning. I want to talk a little bit more about the harms,

but you did find that there are some benefits to some young people from social media, particularly people of color and LGBTQ kids. What are they? Yeah, so certainly there are a mix of benefits and harms, and we see that in terms of benefits, some people do find that social media is a place that allows them to more easily connect

with family and friends, to find affirmation and support from others, to find community, especially if they're from a historically marginalized group and it's difficult to actually find people who may be going through similar experiences as you think about LGBTQ youth, for example. So these are all benefits. And some kids also find social media is a place where they can express themselves more openly and creatively. So while all of that is good, what we should be seeking to do is maximizing the benefits while minimizing harms. But that means understanding the full extent of the harms and understanding what measures work to actually mitigate them. You know, I think about it this way, John. I think about other

products that kids use, right? When you turn 15 or 16, you may have the opportunity to drive a car, right? We think about when you're really young, you may have to be in a car seat. You may have to take medications at various ages throughout childhood. In all of these cases, with cars, with car seats, with medications, we say, hold on, you know, before just putting these out into the market and letting kids consume them, we should set safety standards. We should understand what the impact is, and then we should seek to mitigate harms. And we don't put it all on the shoulders of parents, right? Because this is exactly what is happening right now. And, you know, we don't tell a parent, for example, oh, your child is

16 and ready to get their own license. Well, why don't you go out, check the brakes on all the different models of cars yourself, check out the engines, make sure that, you know, the frame is sufficiently, you know, robust in case there's an accident. We don't do that because we know that's beyond what's reasonable to ask a parent to do. But you take these platforms, which are rapidly evolving, which are fundamentally changing how kids interact with each other and see themselves, and which prior generations, by the way, never had to contend with. And I think it's very unreasonable for us to ask parents to figure out the full extent of harms and benefits on their own, which is why one of the things I call for are the establishment of safety standards that we actually enforce so that parents have some more support in making these decisions with their kids. So I want to talk a little bit more about the harms themselves and sort of the evidence around that. I've heard a few different responses to the idea that phones and social media are partly to blame for rising rates of anxiety and depression among teens.

Some people say, you know, well, just as there are benefits and harms that come from interacting offline, why should we expect online interaction to be any different? We know there are some benefits to social media for some people, young people, and there are also some drawbacks, but isn't that just like real life? And then other people say, you know, it's not the phones in their hands, it's the world around them, right? Climate change, school shootings, high cost of living, democracies at risk. What do you say to those different arguments? Yeah, so it's very interesting you bring this up. And two years ago, when I issued an advisory on youth mental health, we talked about some of these other factors that, yes, and I hear this when I talk to kids around the country, they are worried about climate change.

They're dealing with trauma in their lives, including the trauma of gun violence, which, by the way, has become the number one leading cause of death among kids in America, which is shocking. They're dealing with the challenges of racism and discrimination. They're also people are feeling lonely at record levels in our country, and young people are most deeply affected. There's a lot that's happening to kids right now that's contributing to the youth mental health crisis. But I do think because there are multiple factors doesn't mean that we can ignore any one of them. And social media, I worry, has become one of those factors. Look, almost everything in life has risks and benefits, but what matters is the extent of risks and benefits. And just again, to think about medications, many people are used to taking Tylenol.

They may be used to taking ibuprofen, you know, if they've got, you know, a sprained ankle or an ache or pain. Those medications have risks and benefits, right? But we have carefully assessed the risks and benefits and determined that the risks are small and accrue to a very small number of people, and the benefits outweigh the risks. We need to do something similar when it comes to social media. We're in a place where without having a full understanding of the extent of these risks,

to simply say, well, just put it out there, everyone should just use them and use their best judgment and ability as to whether or not they're using it too much or too little or using it the right or wrong way, that doesn't seem reasonable, especially when we're talking about kids here. Because kids are not just small adults. Adolescents are at a very sensitive stage of development where their brains are developing, their social relationships and self-esteem are developing. And in that stage, it turns out that young people are especially sensitive to social cues, to social

suggestion, and to social comparison, right? And all of those exist in overwhelming abundance on social media. So the last thing I'll just say is some people also wonder, hey, is this just us reacting to new technology? Didn't we overreact to the television and to the internet more broadly, and maybe to cars at some point, like the radio? And the truth is, yes, there's an extent to which every generation, when they see new technology, they get a little worried, right? Because it disrupts some old way of life. But this is different than TV or radio in this way.

It is occupying more space in our lives than prior technologies ever really did, right? Like when I wanted to turn off the information flow when I was growing up, I just turned off the TV, right? But you think about social media, it is present and available thanks to smartphones in part 24-7 to kids, right? We've got a third of teens who are staying up past midnight or later on weekdays on their phones. And when adolescents are deprived of sleep, that actually increases their risk of mental health challenges and it impacts their growth. So the bottom line is prior generations, while they had to deal with new technology, I don't believe that they ever had to deal with a technology that is as transformative or as

pervasive in their lives as social media. And that makes it all the more important for us to understand the risks here. And again, parents and kids are asking for this. You know, people think that this is maybe just a few concerned parents. This is the number one question I'm getting from parents. And with kids also, when I sit down with young people, middle school, high school students, college students across the country, they tell me three things most consistently about social media. They say, number one, it makes me feel worse about myself. Number two, it makes me feel worse about my friendships. And number three, I can't get off it. And so we need to step in and help young people and their parents. I've also seen some evidence that the year 2012 is sort of a turning point

here where we saw rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts among teens and young people start to rise. And that also happened to be the year where iPhone use and social media use became ubiquitous, which is a pretty, and obviously that's one correlation, but then I was also very interested in some findings you included about the benefits of limiting social media use. I would love if you could talk a little bit more about those because that tells me that it really is, if you can see benefits to mental health from limiting social media use, then it does strongly suggest that it's a big factor. Yeah, and this is where it gets very interesting because this question of correlation versus causation comes up a lot, right? And there's certainly a lot of the evidence that is building toward and between use and harms, social media use and harms. A lot of this is association data.

It's correlation data. That doesn't mean that it's not valuable, though, right? But it does mean that we need to dig deeper and understand the causal piece. And here there are some small studies that have been done that point toward a causal link. So we in the advisory point a study of college students, college-age adults, which showed that limiting social media use to 30 minutes daily in their case and doing that over the course of three weeks led to significant improvements in their mental health. There's also another study in adults that we talk about, which shows that deactivating, actually, social media platforms for four weeks actually improved subjective well-being. And this is self-reported happiness and life satisfaction.

These studies need to be done on a broader scale. And keep in mind that what's complicated about some of this work is that everybody is different. Not everyone reacts the same way to social media, not everyone reacts the same way to taking away social media. But there's enough here, you know, that in terms of both the correlation evidence and some of these smaller studies that hinted causation, that should give us pause, right? And what I'm advocating for, what I really believe is right here, is that we should take a safety-first approach, right? This is fundamentally different from saying, let's just put things out there.

And if it gets really bad to the point where in studies it starts showing up, you know, over the course of years and randomized controlled trials that there's harms, then and only then will we act. What we need to do is ask the question, is this safe for our kids? Where is the evidence that it's safe for our kids? We don't put our kids, for example, in cars that have been untested and unproven and just say, well, let's just see what happens. And over time, if it seems like something's bad, then we'll start running some trials on it. And then eventually a few years later, maybe we'll pull back, right?

Similarly, even with like medications, John, like that are already out in the market, we monitor them. And if there are signs that some side effect is popping up that seems concerning, then there are measures that can be taken. If the concerns are significant, a pause may be put on the medication or a warning may be put on the medication, then investigations are done to more deeply understand who's affected, the extent of effect, and then final recommendations are made. But here, look, what we've been doing for the last couple of decades is very little.

We've allowed these platforms to just be out there with no real assessment of safety that is conducted by independent researchers. So there's no accountability. And the limited rules that do exist, for example, many platforms have H13 as a point at which a young person can start using these platforms. Number one, what is the evidence from a health perspective that 13 is the right age? There's no evidence from a health perspective that that's appropriate, but also these aren't even enforced, right? 40% of kids eight through 12 are on social media. So we need

standards. We actually have to enforce them. And we've got to be asking the question, is this safe? Where's the evidence? If there's a medication, as you just mentioned, that's not tested, that you're monitoring, someone says, okay, well, you know, public health officials say that this might not be safe. So I'm going to wait to see what they say about this. With social media, it's different because it's like, well, this is the way that I'm communicating with friends and connecting and everyone's doing it. And this is how I get my news. And, you know, everyone else, is it a bigger challenge because this is such a unique potential threat to people's health? It's interesting, John. I actually think it is a bit easier and a bit harder in some ways because of the ubiquity of social media. Easier in the sense that because everyone is experiencing it, it's not a foreign concept to people.

When we go out there and talk about some of the various effects that people are seeing, both benefits and harms, they are familiar to folks, for example. And the thing is, people bring this up proactively all the time with me, some of these challenges that they're having with social media. So I actually think it makes it a bit easier for people to understand what we're talking about here because folks are using it. At the same time, when there's ubiquitous use, change does become a little bit more challenging. But to be clear, what I'm talking about isn't abolishing social media. It's not putting all of the toothpaste back into the tube here. It's asking the question, how can we have platforms that we know and feel confident are safe for our kids?

Because we want them to experience some of the benefits, but we don't want them to experience the harms, right? And these harms are not insignificant. I mentioned the doubling in risk of depression and anxiety symptoms for kids who use social media more than three hours a day. But that's not the only thing. Young people are telling us, adolescents say that social media, and it's nearly half, it's about 46% of adolescents say that using social media makes them feel worse about their bodies, right? Like John, you and I are both parents. And I think that you and I and parents all across America, almost all of us want our children to grow up feeling confident

about who they are with a strong sense of self-esteem and in a position to go out and to pursue their dreams and to succeed in the world. That is a lot harder if your self-esteem has been shredded, right? Now, we don't want to protect kids, you know, from or shield them from all adversity. You know, that's not what this is about. But what's different about social media is it is overwhelming kids with input, with posts, with comparisons to other people's bodies, to their lifestyles, to their vacations, to everything that's happening in their life. And what happens to them often is what so many of them say, which is they feel good about their days. Then they get on social media, they look at their

feeds, and suddenly their life feels not so good by comparison. So these harms are real. And, you know, for many people, how many kids is it affecting? How and what measures actually work to mitigate and reduce those harms? That's what we need to be studying. Yeah. And it's comparison that's an issue. It's also just the flood of negative, pessimistic information and news that comes across your feeds. I mean, you know, I mentioned, yes, kids are growing up today, climate change is something to worry about, school shootings, democracy. But if you're on social media, all you see is the most hyperbolic version of the world that we live in. And that's, you know, we can have a whole conversation about media coverage, but

to have young kids, preteens, like you're right, you don't want to protect them from the world, but you want to give them an accurate portrayal of both what's wrong with the world and what they can do to fix it. And certainly social media doesn't do that. That's right. Like when we think about our kids and exposing them to adversity so they grow, exposing them to, you know, healthy levels of stress so that they can get stronger and expand their capabilities. I think of it in a similar way to going to the gym, right? So if you and I are going to the gym and we're working out with weights, right, and we lift a reasonable load, we do a reasonable number of reps, and we do that with a reasonable frequency, you know, over the course of a few months, our muscles are going to get stronger, we're going to our muscles are going to grow. But if I go to the gym, and I take a barbell, that's three times what I'm really able to carry, and I really strain to lift that, or I hold that position for 45 minutes, instead of just doing reps up and down, I'm probably going to injure myself, right? And

what that tells us is that for stress to be helpful, for adversity to be helpful for our growth, it needs to come in reasonable quantities with reasonable frequencies. And what you see on social media is many people's experience is that they're driven to be on these platforms more and more and more. And that's not by accident. It's not because suddenly the generation growing up now has dramatically less willpower than prior generations. What's happening is that they're using platforms that are designed to maximize how much time they spend on them.

But what I care about as a parent, as a doctor, as Surgeon General, is maximizing the health and well-being of our kids. And these platforms should be designed in ways that protect and safeguard, if not promote and enhance and well-being of our kids. And these platforms should be designed in ways that protect and safeguard, if not promote and enhance the well-being of our kids. And until we see evidence that that is the case, I think we have to be cautious with our kids using this. But again, this is not about saying never social media ever. It's about making the platform safer and then figuring out the extent of usage that's

actually safe. Finally, John, I'd consider this too, and I say this for parents out there whose kids are already on social media, because look, I think this is one of the most vexing challenges that parents are facing right now is how to manage social media in their kids. In fact, one of the data points we share is that 70% of parents are saying parenting is harder now than it was 20 years ago. And the top two reasons they're pointing to are technology and social media. So if your child is already on social media, I think number one, making sure that you're

starting conversations with them about their use of social media. So you understand, first of all, what they're using, what they're in terms of platforms and what they're using it for, but also so they know what's appropriate and not on social media and when they should be concerned and reach out to an adult for help. Like if they're getting harassed or bullied, that's really important. But the second thing is to recognize that there are certain areas and spaces in our kids' lives that we need to protect. And that's their time to sleep, their time for physical activity, and their time to be

in person with others. And drawing boundaries, creating tech-free zones around those activities is important. That could mean saying that, you know, an hour before bedtime and throughout the night, a child is not allowed to use social media and be their devices. It could mean saying that the dinner table, you know, and mealtimes, when we're with one another,

that's a time where we're not going to use social media or devices. But creating these tech-free zones is another step that parents can take in terms of moderating some of the excessive use and the impact of social media. And finally, let's just consider we've got to lead by example. I'll be honest, as a parent and just throughout adulthood, it's been tough for me sometimes to manage my own use of social media. Sometimes I find I'm on it for a lot longer than I plan to be.

Sometimes I find it makes me feel worse about my days. Other times there are benefits, and I reconnect with an old friend. But the bottom line is the more we can model for our kids what healthy use is, I think the easier it is for them to follow suit. Utah just passed a law that requires parental consent to sign up for social media and prohibits kids under 18 from using it between 10.30 p.m. and 6.30 a.m., again, trying to protect that sleep. I think there were some other sort of safeguards put into place as well from the Utah law. What do you think of that legislation? Well, look, I think what Utah is doing and what California and other states are working on now, to me, this is a conversation that we should be

having, is about concrete measures that we can take. And look, there are going to be debates on what the exact age is that's appropriate because the scientific data doesn't tell us precisely, okay, 15 is the right age, or 16 is the right age, or 17 is the right age. So there's a bit of judgment that we're having to make here. But I'm glad that we're finally having this conversation about concrete proposals. We've also got to move quickly to implement some of these proposals because we can't take years to do this. But I do think that some of the areas that you just mentioned, which I think we need to focus even more on, in addition to age, is in

thinking about the features themselves, right? We know that there are certain features which can lead our kids to unhealthy use. For example, with the infinite scroll on certain social media apps can keep our kids just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and looking at more and more content. We know that the like button, for example, can become, you know, a tool that ends up leading kids to constantly come back looking for more affirmation and feedback on the posts, you know, that they, you know, that they put on social media. And so, and we also know that time matters here as well. When kids can use these devices 24-7, a lot of times they will.

But there are certain times of the day and amounts of time in the day where restrictions, I think, absolutely do make sense to consider. So the bottom line is like, these are the kind of features we should be talking about, not just the right age, but also the right types of safety features. And I want to put identity protection

here as well, because we know that for many, many kids that their privacy protection is a real challenge. And six out of 10 adolescent girls are saying they're approached by strangers on social media in ways that make them feel uncomfortable. That's disturbing. It shouldn't happen. And this is where our legislation should be aimed. And finally, look, we've had almost 20 years to let companies do this on their own. I want to acknowledge that many of them have declared that they care about safety and have tried to take steps to address safety. And they have some measures in place to try to make their platform safer for kids. But what I really care about, John, is the results. I care about the evidence that it's actually working and these platforms are safe for our kids. And we just don't have that evidence right now, which to me means we have not done nearly enough. You mentioned the constant scrolling.

Maybe the most addictive social media app is TikTok. The state of Montana just banned TikTok, became the first state to ban TikTok. Now state of Montana just banned TikTok, became the first state to ban TikTok. Now there are plenty of national security reasons for this that have been talked about. But what do you think specifically about sort of the public health challenges around TikTok as an extremely addictive social media app? Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I certainly have heard about TikTok from the roundtables that we have all the time. You know, I know about the app, the feedback that we get from students and young people is quite substantial around it. And they do say, you know,

actually very much similar to what you said, that it feels to them very addictive and that they can't get off of it easily. We know, in fact, that when you look at adolescent girls, that about a third of them say that they feel they're addicted to social media more broadly. And half of adolescents say that if they had to get off of social media, that they would have a really hard time doing it. And look, I don't think that this is a mistake. I think that it's somehow happening by chance, I should say. I think it's happening by design. You know, I think a lot of platforms want to keep kids on longer. And the newer platforms, you know, are building on, you know, probably the learnings of the past, you know, and getting better and better at keeping kids on.

But, you know, to take a public health approach to this, though, you've got to look at the full impact that this is having on kids' lives. You know, we're seeing, for example, obesity rates going up and not down. We're seeing a profound youth mental health crisis unfold in our country that's worse than any youth mental crisis I think we've seen in recent memory. We've got to ask ourselves what the full impact of these platforms are. And while they may bring entertainment or joy in the moment, while they may have some real benefits overall in terms of connecting people to friends and helping them find community, this is about risks versus benefits. And I just worry that the harms are more significant than we have realized. And I worry about what we don't know because a lot of the data has been

not disclosed to the public. As a parent, like, you know, John, I don't want to feel like things are being hidden from me about the impact of the products that my kids are using on their health and well-being. And that's why I also think policymakers need to ensure that there is data transparency here. We don't ask car manufacturers or baby formula manufacturers or car seat manufacturers

to set their own standards and police themselves, right? We have independent, you know, agencies that do that and experts that oversee that because parents should be able to rely on the safety evaluations coming from unbiased sources. Have you talked to President Biden about any potential actions or legislation that he could introduce or take? Well, you know, President Biden has certainly actually spoken on this in the State of the Union, you know, a couple years ago and has actually put out, you know, directives on this as well, raising his own concerns about what's happening to our kids online, particularly in terms of privacy protection. And he's called for certain actions here. In fact, just recently, earlier this week,

the White House issued a set of actions that the administration is taking to help young people learn more about digital literacy, for example, so that they, as well as parents, can be more savvy about the potential benefits and harms when it comes to their online life, including social media. But the truth is, this is a place where we know action from lawmakers, from Congress and lawmakers at the state level, are also vital. You know this better than anyone having worked in the White House, John, but you can use a pulpit of the White House to call attention to issues or certain administrative actions one can take. But this is a

place where I think to truly establish safety standards and actually enforce them, we do need Congress to step in and play a role. And look, I'm encouraged. There are bills that people have put forward from Congress. I'm encouraged to see that. But I think it's important that we recognize that time is of the essence here. You know, kids only get one childhood. Every day, every week, every month, every year matters to a child. So some of these bills have been around for many, many months, some for even more than that. We can't afford to take, you know, too long in putting forth and implementing measures that are going to make these platforms safer for children. You mentioned leading by example. I'm 41 and still trying to overcome my phone addiction. I mentioned earlier that Max Fisher and I have been trying to reduce our screen time. One week, we traded our iPhones for flip phones.

This week, we're using lock boxes and silly phone cases. I know you've had Catherine Price on your podcast who wrote How to Break Up with Your Phone. Do you have any tips or experiences with reducing screen time that you'd like to share? Well, I do. But can I just ask you, I'm so curious about what you're doing. What is it felt like when you've implemented those different measures, like the lock box, the flip phone? So the flip phone was the first week, and that was our cold turkey week. And it felt wonderful, actually. Like for the first maybe day or so,

I was getting a little twitchy, reaching for a phone that wasn't there. But I enjoyed it so much. I spent more time with my family. I thought that all of my in-person interactions, whether it was with family, friends, or even acquaintances, strangers, were just more fulfilling. And I felt I could think more clearly. And I liked it so much that after the first challenge was over with the flip phone, I took Twitter off my phone completely. So

I could use it for the news on my laptop, but that's about it. And I also disabled all my notifications on my phone. So I could see the badge numbers, but I couldn't get, wouldn't distract me all the time. And it has made, it has made a real difference. Like I feel better doing this. And, you know, there is, there are like, we're trying to figure out what's the most sustainable way to do this, right? Because I'm not going to use a lockbox forever. And I do think that, you know, the things that you value from your phone, communication with friends on texts, all that kind of stuff, you know, using it for music and directions in the car, right? There's a whole bunch of things you need your phone for. That I value and I want to keep using.

But in terms of the constant checking, the media, like I don't, I don't miss that at all. That is really powerful. And I'm curious, did you get any feedback from your wife or from other family members about if you were different in any way during that time? Well, it's funny. We had, we had a funny video clip of Charlie, my son, because after the first day I didn't have my phone and I was at work and he said to my wife, Emily, he said, where's daddy's phone? And she's like, oh, he's doing an experiment. And she's like, why?

She's like, because he uses his phone too much. She's like, do you think he's going to be able to do it for the whole week? And he goes, yes, no. Which is tough, tough to hear. Oh, my gosh. But it is. No, I got feedback from Emily, from friends of mine who noticed that I was not checking all the time, that I was more present.

And we've heard just more from listeners of this show about this challenge than almost anything else we've done. Because like you said, and you see this all the time and hear this all the time from people, there is this sense out there that I think is quite widespread that there's something wrong here and that it's stealing something from us

to spend all this time staring into a screen. Yeah. Gosh, well, first of all, I think it's great that you did this experiment. And how nice that you felt better and the people around you felt better. And I think you're absolutely right that a lot of people out there feel like something's not right here. And one of the reasons I issued this advisory is I wanted those people to feel and to know that this is not just you, you know, who feels this way. There are a lot of people who are similarly worried. And there's a growing body of evidence that shows that, you know, there may be real harms here.

And this is an area we've got to investigate more. But I'm glad that you did that. You know, I had an interesting experience as well, which I'll share with you, which is I had to actually have this procedure done some months ago. And a couple of my buddies who I'm very close with, and they called me up the night before and they said, okay, so you're going to be taking a bit of a lighter load at work for the couple of days after you have this procedure, what are you going to do differently during that time? And I was like, huh, well, I hadn't quite thought about it. But one of the things they told me to do is they said,

well, why don't you stop using social media during that time? Stop checking social media. And I said, well, okay. And obviously, you know, like for our office's sake, you know, we have an official account and we post content for the public, things like that. But I had noticed that I was checking a lot. Checking to see what was going on, checking to see all the things that we check and see on social media.

But a lot more frequently than I really needed to. It was the thing I did, there was a moment of boredom or I was looking for something interesting here and there or some stimulation or whatever it might be. And so I said, okay, I will stop checking, you know, for the next, you know, for the next few days. And it was really interesting because I had an experience similar to yours. I felt twitchy for the first couple of days. But something also felt liberating about it. Like I had been trying to get myself to read, read more as well, like outside of work, but I had found that it was just hard to actually sit and read. Like my mind would always get distracted. I'd be checking something on my phone here and

there. And I actually started reading a book, you know, again, for the first time in a while. And that was really powerful. And it was actually so powerful that I stuck with it, you know? So now I do, you know, from time to time, if I need to check something on social that's work-related, in a very targeted way, I will. But I remember I have the voice of my two buddies in my head that now sort of has put me on a path of just by default not checking, unless, again, there's something urgent or critical that comes up. And it's not necessarily the right solution for everybody, but for me, it's made a real difference, not just in my having time to read,

but in my being focused in conversations. And I'm finding I'm getting more out of that conversation. I'm being more present for other people. So the funny thing about this, John, is it feels like the world is moving faster and faster, right? And we all have busier and busier and busier lives. One of the things that this experiment helped me to realize is in a world where I was like trying to find five minutes, 10 minutes here and there, I realized how much time I was actually spending just check mindlessly checking, you know, all the time. And getting that time back has meant more time for my family, more time for me to just sit and think, more time to read and more time to have conversation. Well, and the other, the great irony of social media,

which was developed supposedly to bring us closer together and to encourage connection, is that I also think it feeds social isolation. And I know that you have focused on loneliness as a central focus of your tenure as Surgeon General. And I know, you know, you and I have talked about loneliness before, and we talked about it last time you were on the show. I was really struck by your New York Times op-ed recently about this, and especially the stat that you included, the increased risk of premature death associated with social disconnection is comparable to smoking daily and maybe even greater than the risk associated with obesity. Why is that? How does loneliness affect our physical health?

Yeah, this is really, to me, one of the most striking things about loneliness is how profoundly it affects both our mental and physical health. And most people don't recognize that. And also, most people don't know how incredibly common this is. One of the points that we highlighted in that piece is that one in two adults actually report measurable levels of loneliness. And the prevalence of loneliness is, in fact, seems to be greatest among young people despite how connected they are by technology or perhaps in some cases because of how connected they are by technology and how it displaces in-person connection. But the way in which it has this health effect is interesting and it's an area that's still actively evolving in terms of research. But

one of the things that we've learned is that loneliness is actually a stress state, is a physiological stress state in our body. And one thing we know about stress states is that they can ultimately be harmful to your health when the stress is either excessive or when it's prolonged. And this goes back to the example we were talking about earlier of working out with weights, right? If you're lifting far too much, or if you're holding a contraction for way too long, right, that stress can cause harm. But if you're lifting a reasonable load with reasonable repetitions and intervals, that can help you build your strength and your muscle. So when you're in a chronic stress state, in other words, when you're chronically lonely, that stress over time can lead to inflammation in your body. Inflammation can damage tissues and blood vessels, and that in turn increases the risk of cardiovascular disease and other physical ailments. And finally, though,

the reason that loneliness is a stress state is worth actually underscoring because this is interesting. If you go back like thousands of years to when we were hunters and gatherers, we depended on our relationships with each other to keep ourselves safe and to survive. So we had trusted relationships with others. We could take turns watching at night to make sure there weren't predators. We could pool our food supply to make sure that none of us starved on a given day. We could help each other out with childcare. But when we were separated from our group, that's when we knew that our risk of survival just plummeted, right?

We're more likely to get attacked by a predator or starve. And so our body, you know, became, you know, went into a stress state. We were more on guard. We needed to be vigilant, you know, because we needed to look around, you know, and make sure there weren't threats around us. And interestingly, even though our circumstances are so different today, John, than they were in our hundred gatherer days, what's very similar are actually our brains and our nervous systems. They have not evolved that much since that time. So when we are separated from people, when we feel isolated and alone, our body experiences a similar state of stress that we experienced thousands of years ago when we were alone in the tundra. And when that is short-lived, so when we respond to loneliness like we would to hunger or thirst

by reaching out to a friend or getting in our car and going and visiting a loved one, then it may be short-lived and it may be fine. It's when it becomes chronic and long-standing that we start to see the harms develop. You point out in the op-ed that social isolation makes us more susceptible to polarization. I've talked to a few guests about how social isolation can also lead to online radicalization, especially among men, especially on the far right. Why do you think that is? And how do you think more broadly about the role that social connection plays in holding democracy together? We can talk about that a lot on the show. I think it's an essential part of any healthy society.

And I think of a healthy democracy. You know, for a society to work, like people have to be able to work together in the face of adversity, but they also have to look out for one another, right? If I only care about the state of schools, if I have kids, that's a problem, right? Because we all need to make sure that our schools are strong. If I only care about whether there's support available to help people who are sick at home

and who are elderly and frail, that's a problem because we all need to support those individuals in society. So we have to be invested in one another, and we have to be able to work together to really thrive as a society. And with a democracy in particular, that investment becomes all the more critical because people need to vote based on whether or not they care about these broader set of issues that may or may not affect them directly, but affect society more broadly. And if I'm only focused on my narrow set of interests,

then that may mean that I don't support the kind of measures or push forward the kind of measures that will ultimately lift up all of society. But this is the interesting part about loneliness is when people are more disconnected from one another, all of that becomes harder. Cohesion becomes harder. People aren't as invested in one another, all of that becomes harder. Cohesion becomes harder. People aren't as invested in one another. And it's easier for them to turn against each other as well. The simple lesson that

was taught to me years ago was that it's hard to hate people up close, right? All of us have relatives in our family who maybe we disagree with, we have different political views with. But you know what? If they were sick and in the hospital, we'd show up for them. And if we were sick, they would show up for us too, because there's something deeper. We know them at a deeper level and such that we understand that they are more than their political views, or they're more than their views on any particular issue that we disagree with, disagree on. That's the benefit of building connection. We're more likely to give people the benefit of the doubt. We're more likely to give people the benefit of the doubt. We're more likely to understand their point of view.

And we're more likely to fight for a set of interests that's broader than our interests alone. And to me, those are elements that are critical to a healthy functioning society and to a healthy democracy. And if you look at the data, interestingly, you find that societies and communities that are more connected, they tend to be more economically prosperous. They tend to have lower levels of violence. They tend to be more resilient in the face of adversity. And look, we're just getting through

this COVID pandemic, but at some point in the future, we don't know when, there will likely be another infectious disease threat, another pandemic. We are already facing the threat of climate change and dealing with that. Internally, we're dealing with violence and discord within our own communities at times. This is a place where if we're not able to build those bonds, get to know one another, see each other as not just as more than our particular view on an issue, but as moms and dads, as brothers and sisters, as grandparents who care fundamentally

about many of the similar things, which is making sure that our children have the opportunity to inherit a world that's worthy of them, making sure that our families are safe. If we understand that these kind of commonalities and we can actually see them in conversation with one another, in our neighbors,

that's what gives us the ability to function as a society that's resilient in the face of adversity. Without that, then we just become a nation of 330 million people who are all on our own. And I just don't think that that's who we are fundamentally as Americans or who we want to be. Because when I talk to people around the country, John, despite how divided and polarized it feels, right, and when you read the paper or you consume the news, I actually find that there are people who are stepping up to help their neighbors when they're in distress. I find that, like, you know, there are people who recognize that, hey, there's a child who is in need and they're a kid's school, and they step up to volunteer, you know, to help that child or help that family. You know, inside we are not mean-spirited and selfish and inherently angry. I think our true nature is to be kind, to be compassionate, to be generous, to be loving. But we're not always the

best versions of ourselves. And so that's what we have to do fundamentally to build a more connected world is we have to get back to those core values and double down on what really matters. And those values of generosity and service and compassion and friendship, these are the ones we need to model for our kids. These are the ones that we need to use as we're thinking about how to design workplaces and schools, as we think about the leaders we support and the policies that we support, they have to be driven fundamentally by these core values. And if they're not, then I worry that we will continue to drift further and further apart. Last question, a personal question, and we get this a lot from our listeners, caring about politics and everything you just mentioned in 2023 can take a toll on

your mental health. How do you balance being a committed public servant in such a stressful political era with prioritizing your own mental health and relationships? That's such a good question. Look, I think it's an ongoing challenge for all of us, and that includes me. And there's some days I do better than others. And the toll is real. This 24-7 surround sound of information that we have around us, often information that's predominantly negative, can take a toll on our emotional well-being and can also make us feel like everything is broken in the world, even though I don't think that that is the case. But here are a few things that I try to do. Number one, I try to spend quality time with my family every day. And that means time without devices, time where I'm

fully present with them. I have two small kids. They're five and six. They help tremendously in that. The second thing that I try to do is to limit the flow of negativity into my life. And taking my buddy's advice and limiting how often I'm checking social media and even checking the news more broadly, that has been actually helpful in that. So I have spaces where I can not necessarily be inundated by negativity. But the third thing that I try to do, John, is I try to stay close to the people that we are trying to serve, like in our communities, right? So I travel, I talk to people in roundtables around the country, I visit schools and talk directly to students. And I find so much more hope and humanity in the conversations I have with actual people on the ground. The thing is, a lot of times we're interpreting and assuming what people are like based on the caricatures that we see of them

online or based on the secondhand reports that we get through stories. But that's not actually the representative of reality. When I get out there and I talk to schools and parents and community members, I see people who fundamentally want to be optimistic. They may be worried about what's happening in the country, but in their own lives, they are kind. They are generous. They are trying to look out for other people. And that gives me hope that our true nature is, in fact, good and that we are not inherently mean-spirited. To me, what that means, John, is that this broader effort that we all care about to build a community, to build a country where people fundamentally take care of one another, where they pull together in

times of difficulty, where we realize that we can only go far if we go together, that is not a pipe dream. That's not unrealistic. And that's not about transforming ourselves into somebody we're not. It's about fundamentally getting back to who we are inherently. So those are the things that I do. Try to stay close to people. Try to make sure that I am keeping quality time for family and friends and limit the flow of negative information into my life, which isn't, none of these are always easy. But I find that they're really vital for my own peace of mind and well-being.

And for staying optimistic, which is what I think all of us need in order to be able to be our best selves and contribute the most to the world. Well, Dr. Murthy, I always appreciate the thoughtfulness and optimism and humanity that you bring to the work that you're doing. So thank you for that. And thank you for joining Offline. It's great to have you as always. I appreciate that, John. It's always good to talk to you. And thanks for sharing the results of your experiment with me. I'm really interested in this. Absolutely. We'll keep you up to date. Please do. Take care. You too. Bye. All right, welcome back to Offline. Hey, pal.

Hey, Max. We're here for the latest update on the Offline Challenge. Week three. For those just tuning into the Offline Challenge, which, where have you been? Unplugging. The first week, we traded our iPhones for flip phones. I won that challenge.

You did? After a little, you know, little stop the steal action. And we should say this is part of a ongoing multi-week challenge to try to break up with our smartphones, fix our brains, reclaim our lives. Correct. Correct. And then the second week we did mindfulness, which Max won. What did I just in a wave? That was meditation.

A wave for the Maxinistas. And breathing. I hated it. And then, so this week, we did a couple things. We're calling this sort of physical restrictions this week. Make it harder to access the phone. Right. And so for those of you who are watching on YouTube, hope you are, we both have very silly clown cases.

Giant, really cumbersome, extremely yellow and colorful clown-shaped phone cases. Yeah. The idea of which is that it's going to shame and discourage us from taking out our phones. And also was just an act by the producers at Man Austin

to humiliate us personally. Just to get us. Which they did. So we had to put clown cases on. We have lock boxes where we were supposed to put our phone in the lock box for an hour each day and then grayscale which is changing your phone just to black and white and

gray because the colors of the apps are designed like um uh slot machines yeah to be addicted to be addictive and boy is that true yeah boy is that true so that's what we did how'd you find it okay so favorite part of the challenge least favorite part of the challenge okay start with that okay uh favorite part of the challenge the lockbox i it's like a new brainer why didn't i do this 10 years ago so easy so so transformative really effective i walked into the house every night on the weekdays and i as soon as i got in i put the phone in the lockbox. And I did it for more than an hour. I get home around like 5.30. Charlie goes to bed at like 7, 7.30.

And then I do some more work after that. And so in those like two hours, hour and a half where I'm home, it was just in the lockbox and it felt fantastic. I had so many days where I would come home, put the phone in the lockbox, press the little key code to lock it up. It's just a little plastic box, like a shoebox. And wouldn't take the phone out until the next morning when I was coming to work. And I really loved it because I feel like those evenings, and we've talked about this before, that's the time when you need the phone least and you use it the most and use it in the most unhealthy ways where i for me i'm sitting at home alone just like scrolling apps so that i don't have to like be present with you know my own mind and once you like introduce some physical space and physical restrictions then you have to be present with

your own mind which is in some ways terrible but in some ways like really healthy and nice it was it was great um least favorite part for Oh, I think we probably both have the same answer to this. This fucking clown case. So let me say a word in favor of the clown case before we talk about all the ways it almost got us arrested. Or frankly, we should have been arrested for carrying these phones. I'm a little upset that the LAPD did not come to my house for carrying this phone around. Someone should have stopped us. So it's not sustainable. No one should carry this around full time. But like a couple

challenges we've done in the past, something that's great about it is just forcing you to do something so unusual makes you realize phone habits that you weren't conscious of having. So something that was great about this is that it is so fucking humiliating to pull out your phone in public in any context that you start to realize, or I started to realize how often I do it. How often you at a bar by yourself? I was waiting for friends. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the addendum. Yeah. Um, yes, I was, I was at a bar waiting for a friend and I was sitting there and I was like, what am I going to do? I'm going to look at my phone, but I didn't want to do that because if you saw someone and it was like five o'clock too, and there was a family

sitting nearby. And I was imagining these parents looking over at this like weird loner guy on his creepy clown phone. And it's like, I don't want to do that to them. So I just sat there and just like existed in the bar, which frankly also makes people really uncomfortable, but was really, really nice. Although I did cheat one day, I went to a comedy show on Monday and I was meeting up with friends after, but I was going by myself. And so I knew I was going to be sitting in this crowded audience on my own for like 20 minutes waiting for it to start. And I didn't want to sit there and just like stare at the ceiling because that looks weird. But also imagine if you went to a comedy show and saw someone by

themselves on their creepy clown phone. i would think that they were part of the show yeah i'm not a big improv guy so i didn't know if i wanted to send off um i brought it home the first day and charlie loved the clown case obviously like he couldn't get enough of it kids love it which actually makes it a little creepier in some ways well then emily said i think you look like a pedophile i heard that so many times so many times and then the next day emily said i am concerned that i am more embarrassed by the clown case than you i don't want to take you anywhere with this clown case i did have and i only because i don't go out much i went out friday night and i uh met some friends in Santa Monica. I got an Uber and I was like, you know what?

I'm not going to, it's not even the clown case that's embarrassing. I'm just not going to check my phone in an Uber and just see what happens. And I just looked out the window. Wow. And I'm sure much like being alone at the bar that the Uber driver was probably like, what the fuck is wrong with that guy? But it was nice. And then when I got to the restaurant, I just did not take my phone out the entire time.

Because the clown case worked. Right. It does. But it sucks. But it worked. I would recommend, it's a thing like the flip phones that I think is great to do for a week just to become conscious of how you're using your phones. I have a clown case story for you. So I was at a dinner party over the weekend in tipanga and for people who don't

know la tipanga is like if a healing crystal was a neighborhood it would be tipanga so not what you would think of as a like super online super phone addicted crowd marion williamson from there is she no i don't know i mean she her spirit hovers over the canyon yeah and my friend who was hosting there a lot of people I didn't know. I thought it was so funny. He was making fun of it, but it was actually great because it spurred this great conversation where it was like everybody pulled out their phone and now like we're all checking our screen time together and looking at our pickups and what apps are we using.

And just like looking at that, you learn so much. And it was also really nice to do it together because we were all talking about, we're gonna check in on text message and hold each other accountable. And it made me realize that I think one of the things that has made this so effective for us, because in just three weeks, we really have like, I think pretty fundamentally altered our relationships to our phone is just the fact that we're doing it like together, like

the two of us doing it, the producers and like the social communal element of it and sure it brings accountability but um i just think that it is a like really nice way to engage you in thinking more about your phone collectively with your friends so that you're kind of all resetting it together is like i think really effective yes no i think it's been it's also just been like a great conversation starter with people. And then people start talking about their own phone use. I did take the clown, I will admit, I took the clown case off yesterday because we had a meeting at Charlie's new preschool that he'll be going to in September. And so it was like parents can tour the classroom with their child. And I was like, I am not fucking. You don't want to be known as that parent.

No, with the clown case. So I did that and then i was in my office yesterday and i had the clown case on and lucinda our ceo came in uh to talk to me about something and she's talked to me i can see her just like looking down at the at my desk and at my phone and and she she wasn't saying anything for a while and then finally she was like what is that and i was like oh that's the offline challenge for c she's like oh i was what did you do? I had some friends visiting from New York and they were so nice for like the first three days. They were too polite to ask me about the clown case. That's the hard, see, that's tough.

Because that, right. Because then like, what are they thinking? Yeah. They think like you moved out here three months ago and you're already a psycho with the clown case, which is in my heart. I am a psycho with the clown case. So they're not wrong. Sonia, the security guard downstairs you know was sitting downstairs in our office when you came in well i walked i walked by her and she saw it and she was like

that's nice and i was like no no sonia no it was i have to do this i didn't do this on my own so should we also talk about the gray scale yeah let's talk about the gray scale which is in the middle one um i think it works by the way yeah because there were times when i wanted to cheat and just look at color and i'm like it really it absolutely makes it so here's the thing about changing your phone to gray scale which anyone can do by going to the accessibility settings it takes like five seconds is that you think it is going to be this really light small thing that'll be easy and how much could it possibly change your relationship to your phone? And it turns out to be both extremely hard and extremely effective.

It's really a high-level digital detox challenge, because taking that color away just really transforms the phone. Well, also, I took Twitter off my phone after the last challenge, and then my Instagram time went way up. And this week no instagram because like you don't want to look at black and white yeah yeah but it's also like you look at your phone and you're more intentional about where you go because i'm like what app do i need but they all look the same they're all gray and so i'm like really thinking and it's it's not

fun to be on your phone it's not fun to be on your phone which is which is telling how do you think this week compared to the last two weeks of challenges? I found this week to be both effective and sustainable. I think I'm going to keep up with Minus the clown case. Yeah. I have used grayscale off and on on my phone for

years, since like 2017 when I found a bunch of Silicon Valley people who are all like, don't let them use colors on your phone because it's too powerful. I'm definitely gonna keep that. I'm definitely gonna keep the lockbox. I also think we're just getting better at this with more time.

And I really hope that people are following along and doing the challenges with it because I feel like some of the listeners we've heard from have said that it does get a lot easier as you go. Grayscale is the one that I feel like I should do permanently and probably won't because i'm because of the addictive quality like that's how addictive the colors are yeah

it's really hard yeah but i think it's i highly recommend it to everyone and i also think that um the whether it's the lockbox or like honestly i didn't need the lock like i'm just going to normalize putting my phone down somewhere where I'm not for a couple hours a day. And I just think that is, I highly recommend that. A literal shoebox would be just as effective. And I've actually, I know some people who they have like a drawer in the kitchen, they put their phone in. Yeah. Cause I had no desire to open the lock box ever during this week. I did get more competitive this week cause I lost last week. This was a problem. This is why the social element is helpful.

When I checked my phone, the app that I probably checked the most was Screen Time, which is such a sign that I am on the OCD spectrum in a big way. But now you're channeling in a healthy direction. The checking behavior was checking the Screen Time all the time.

My number one source of pickups was screen time. And the number two most used app on my phone this week was the OneSec app, which is the one that we used last week where it makes you take a breath and meditate between using apps. So I basically now use my phone to break up with my phone. I love that. Okay, when we come back, we will announce the next offline challenge. All right, we're back for the next offline challenge. Carolyn Dunphy, I guess we scared her away.

She scared us. So we said, please, no. She's taking the week off. Fortunately for us, we have Crooked's own Julia Clare, author of the What A Day newsletter. Please sign up if you haven't already. Hi, Julia. Hi, guys. Wow.

I mean, what I love about having listened to this challenge now is learning how deeply mentally unwell you are, John. And I just didn't know when I signed up to work here. But just John, we agree. I'm thriving. I'm really, I'm doing great. No, you both, I'm worried about both of you in different ways. All right, big talker, what are your screen time stats? I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, that's what I thought. She has to write a daily newsletter.

Yeah. Ever thought of that, Max? Okay. Greetings, gentlemen. I mean, offline models. Ooh. Uh-oh. I am your fill-in offline chancellor this week.

Congratulations on making it to the fourth week of the Offline Challenge. For those of you listening at home, we are doing yet another low-budget production of reality TV. This week, it's America's Next Top Model. My favorite. It's a good one. It's so good. I've watched a thousand episodes of it. Wow.

Like any teen girl in the early aughts with a nascent eating disorder. And now you're on an episode. And now I'm here. Circle of life. John. Yes. You got your act together last week. And Maxinista,

you showed that you aren't here to make friends. What would you say was the most challenging part of the past week for both of you? Just having to live in the humiliation of having this clown smartphone. Really, both of us, just a couple of clown cases with their clown cases. Most challenging part for me was I have to beat Max this week. And so I really looked at that screen time as if it was its own challenge. I mean, it is.

I know. Wow. I know. Now we have to ask the team. We have to ask you both to compare screen time. This is it. The moment of truth. Should I go first?

I wrote mine down because I was tired every week of just guessing what the average was. So I did a little homework. An hour, five minutes. An hour, three minutes. 48 minutes. An hour, nine. An hour, 16. minutes an hour nine an hour 16 hour 25 an hour 51 yesterday although i think that was because i just left spotify open while i was going for a drive for an average of one hour and 14 minutes oh shit i didn't do an average uh i can read out my screen times though uh one six. That was the last. So you started last Wednesday? Yes.

One hour, six. Uh, one hour, 49. One hour, 31. One hour, five. Uh, let me get to the next. It's not sounding good. It's a close one. Uh, uh. It's a squeaker.

Uh, one hour, six. Okay. 53. Ooh. And then fucking yesterday, one hour, 37. Okay. 53. Oh. And then fucking yesterday, one hour 37. Wow. You might actually, it might be like down to a nose here. Yeah.

Can we get a ruling from the judges or from the chancellor? I'm doing the math. Oh, nice. Awesome. I can't have that blood on my hands. And you did not include today on there, right? I did not. Yeah, today was eight minutes.

Okay, we're going we're going to the judges the tabulating the score for a photo finish it's so tense in the studio right now i am just on tinder hooks here well look we're all winners because your average before okay seriously seriously i mean your average before we started was over six hours your average before was and was very shocking hours. Yeah, your average before was shocking. It was very troubling. Troubling. Gentlemen, that is an hour 18.

So what was max? An hour 14. Oh, yeah. That's right. Who's America's next top model? This guy. Four minutes. Four minutes.

Four minutes, but a world away. My two apps yesterday that were the longest, fucking Google Maps and Spotify. Google Maps fucked me. Google Maps, a phrase we say a lot on this show, actually. My top apps were Slack, the one second app which is supposed to make you not use your phone, Spotify, Messages, Maps, Instagram, Google Docs, and number eight was Twitter. Oh. So just the healthy stuff you need your phone. I really feel like we're getting it down.

I also feel like it's easier. I say this as someone who is very addicted to Twitter. I think it's a lot easier to not use it now that it's so bad to use. I will agree. Borderline unusable. That has helped. We have personally thanked Elon Musk multiple times on this show. Shout out to Elon Musk.

All around good guy. Doesn't get that a lot here, but he's getting that right now. Yeah. Thank you for ruining the website. Yeah, you unintentionally made our lives a little bit better. Okay.

It's time to decide who will be America's next top offline role model. I only have one photo in my hands. And this photo represents the host who is still in the running towards becoming America's next top offline role model. Who could it be? I'll only call one name.

And the model that I do not call must immediately return to the house. Pack your bags. Yeah, pack your bags, John. And leave. Man, Pod Save America is going to be empty this week. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. Taking a vacation. Wow.

Okay, for people who are not watching the YouTube, that is Max Fisher from the excellent Wes Anderson film Rushmore, also known as Cousin Max Fisher. The other picture I had printed out was Jon Favreau, the actor, of course. Of course. Okay. Wow, it's a big moment for the Maxinistas. Big moment.

Two in a row. Jon. Yes. Security, and by that I mean our producer Emma, will follow you out. Congratulations, Maxinista. You get the perk for the next round. Thank you. What's the perk?

I don't know. Okay. Should we talk about what our next week of challenges is going to be? I think we have some good ones lined up. Gentlemen, you've come a long way. You've learned to regain control of your phones. You've deleted Twitter. But is it enough? This week, we'll test your limits yet again. We have three new challenges for you. Your first, a social media code of conduct. Max has set aside a series of rules

you both must follow each and every time you log on to social media. Max, could you introduce us to your code of conduct? Sure. So I don't have the rules in front of me, so you might have to read through them. But this is something that I actually came up with. You didn't bring the rules to your own code of conduct? I don't have a laptop. I'm unplugged. Take the one away. Take the one away. Wow. I think that's disqualifying. I think that the judges need to review and post. Sorry.

I actually came up with this when I was writing the book on social media in 2018 because I was so horrified by my own addiction to it and by realizing not just how much time I was spending on it, but how much it was changing my own behavior and how I was thinking about the world, not just when I was on my phone and on Twitter, but just generally in the world. And I took a nine month complete break from social media, which I know we can't do in the confines of this, but came back with this set of rules, some of which came from people I knew in Silicon Valley, some of which I came up with. One of them came from Maggie Haberman, which is actually one of the great rules. Like many people who've written great rules for social media, she does not follow it at all. We've all been there. We've all been there. I have also really backslid on my own rules for social media, which is why I'm excited to bring them back. Okay. Austin just pinged me that the code of conduct is in the document. I just didn't scroll down far enough.

I'm doing great, everyone. So number one, anytime you want to post something, post it instead to a group chat, Slack, or other, quote, slow social platform. If time passes and you still want to post it publicly, you can. Number two, this is going to be, I mean, this is the hardest one. No dunks. No quote tweets. No dunks. Here's the thing. We are just

hours away from Ron DeSantis announcing his presidential campaign on Twitter spaces with Elon Musk what the fuck

what am I supposed to do no dunks you're taking a social media break listen here's the thing I can offer

thoughtful critiques of Ron DeSantis and Elon Musk of course you can offer takes but I mean the thing is if someone was going to do like so much of social media is designed to make you express outrage and then reward you for it, which means that if you were going to say it, someone 10,000 other people are going to say it.

That's very true. Yeah, but you do have a large enough following that if you're not dunking on Ron DeSantis, a bunch of people might become president. I think this is. Yeah, I think that a bunch of people are- He might become president. I think- This is, yeah. I think that a bunch of people are going to be like, wow, Jon Favreau's gone soft. And maybe he's a secret supporter. And maybe- Maybe he did pay for Twitter. So that's this week's dilemma, is do you fix your relationship to social media or tank

American democracy? Yeah. That's a tough one. That's the choice I make every week. Okay, well, gives me something to think about okay number three no expressing outrage if it's truly outrageous

10,000 people are already saying so that's a good one number four no participating in the prevailing discourse of the moment this is ridiculous this is ridiculous Max well it was your job now you're taking a zen break now I'm just fucking meditating with the clown phone That is my job. This is ridiculous, Max. Well, it was your job.

Now you're taking a zen break. Now I'm just fucking meditating with my clown phone. If you have thoughtful insights, that's great. But no, no like bean dad. I mean, this is what this is about. It's just like the thing that everybody's tweeting about that's just like online bullshit. Like what I'm supposed to get for the terminally online show. That's no. Stuff like that, yeah.

Okay. Major news is over. the terminally online show. I can't, that's, that's no. Stuff like that, yeah. Okay, so no participating in the prevailing discourse of the moment unless it's a topic you're professionally required to speak on. that's a fucking loophole

you can drive a truck through right there. It's the Jon Favreau Carvax. E.G., no main character takes or main character discourse takes

unless, of course, you are the main character. That's a really non That's a bigger problem. Which is something that I am going to personally see happen. That becomes a company-wide problem. Yep. I'm going to start a whole HR firestorm.

This is your week. I can't wait. This is your week to really get it rolling. I'm drunk with power right now. Number five, before every post, ask yourself, is this essential to say? And is it essential that I'm the one to say it? Unless you answer a clear yes to both, don't post it.

Can I just say that that second question, is it essential that I post it? If everyone asked that question, there would be no more social media and we'd all be better off. Ask that question i can't imagine anything that is essential for me specifically john favreau to post you've probably had like 20 tweets that are absolutely essential it's like something that you saw personal information i don't know everything else is just what am i doing i need you to start tweeting just diary entries i mean that's all I'm going to be left with. So this was the Maggie Haberman rule. And this is the thing she was always telling other people at the times because people are always getting themselves in trouble for just like popping off on things that were like not even their beat.

And she was always saying, look, if it's your beat, if it's the thing you've reported on, it's the thing you have some key insight on, like absolutely go for it. But if it's not that, you're just contributing to the noise and you're just doing it for like, you know, clout and you don't need to do that. Right. It's a good one. It's a good one. Okay. Number six, mute all notifications on Twitter and on Instagram. You're only allowed to post to stories. That's fine. Yeah. I don't have that anyway. And I don't even have, well, post a story. You have a lot of other problems. I have a lot of other problems. A lot of other problems.

That's, yeah. Cross that one off the list. Okay. Number seven. This is the final rule. Have fun. Have fun out there, kids. No, you know what?

That's not it. The answer is not to have fun. Leave it all on the field. Yeah. We're all, no, the last rule is none of us are here to make friends. No, number seven, universal carve-out exception for breaking news. Okay. So I feel like that covers... Like real breaking news or CNN breaking news?

What's the crooked equivalent of CNN breaking news? I feel like the DeSantis announcement is going to be a breaking news. We all just, we're dying to post about it because it's going to be such a shit show. As the author of the Max Fisher social media rules, you can post on how Ron DeSantis is

bad when he is announcing his presidential run. What would the world do without those posts? Exactly. Alright, that's good. I like these. Okay. So the second challenge for this week is unplugged hobby time. For the next week, we are asking each of you to spend at least one hour a day completely unplugged doing your hobby. And that can be journaling.

That can be writing. Learn to knit. Yeah, producer Austin really wants us to learn to knit go on a hike he's like need some sweaters this is like a this is like a fucking vacation for me I have a two

year old at home I'm just gonna be like sorry it's hobby time it's hobby time for work time I do play piano you know I was gonna say the two I've wanted to I haven't I

used to write a long time ago in the past life and I used to play piano long time ago in a past life. And I used to play piano a lot. I actually have a wedding coming up at the end of the summer, which is like my best childhood friend, where I'm speaking and playing at the wedding. Oh my God.

And I was like, I should take this time. Yeah, you got to practice. To start maybe thinking about what I'm going to, thinking about the speech. What are you going to play? Thinking about, I think we're playing, I'm playing with one of my buddies is playing violin. We're playing your song. You should play the Pod Save America theme.

That would be really beautiful. They'll have them, but while they're walking out, like while they're walking out with their person. I like unplugged hobby time. All right, I'm in. I'm in for that. Okay. So whatever you like to do, just do it completely off your phone. Great.

Perfect. Okay. And the third and final challenge, app limits. We've placed one sec on your phone. We've put your phone in lock boxes. But we've completely passed over the most common way to gain control over your phone, which is app limits. This week, we're asking you to place limits on as many apps on your phone as possible.

Our producers recommend app limits for your whole phone. Yeah, that's reasonable. But we'll leave that up to you. John, we know you won't. I'll do a phone-wide app limit. Sure. Yeah. Also, I have to win this week

so I'm gonna be my own worst applement well I believe in you I think you can do it John fuck four minutes alright well

I don't like this new smugness that's emerged in you from winning multiple weeks in a row this is gonna be

my greatest source of anxiety and stress this week off mic we've talked about one of the great benefits of breaking up with your phone is how incredibly smug you get to be with the people around you in your life. So I would really recommend that to people as a side benefit.

I'm at peak smugness. With not with Max, but with other people. But next week. Next week you can be. But this week it's my week to be smug. Thank you, Julia. Thank you guys for having me. For a fantastic job filling in for Dumpy.

I could never. I'm not, I don't have, I don't have the juice, okay? You do. You know what? You have more than you think. More than you think. Max Fisher, thank you as always for joining. And thanks to Dr. Vivek Murthy for joining us as well.

And we will talk to you next week. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Austin Fisher. Emma Illick-Frank is our associate producer. Andrew Chadwick is our sound editor. Kyle Seglin, Charlotte Landis, and Vassilis Fotopoulos sound engineered the show. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Michael Martinez, Ari Schwartz, Amelia Montooth,

and Sandy Gerard for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Rachel Gajewski, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.