Oh What A Time... - #102 City Planning (Part 2)

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!Ever wondered how cities were planned? Then wonder no more with this week’s subject! We’re heading back to 100BC to check out the pre-Aztec city of Teotihuacan. We’ll see what kind of American city Robert Owen had planned in the early 1800s. PLUS let’s see what our old moustache’d mucker Josef Stalin planned to do with Moscow.And how did we ever survive before the age of the instagram fitness influencer? How could caveman possibly have persisted without dietary advice handed out in 60 second social media videos?! We have no idea, but if you know: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Let's get on with the show. Right, I'm taking you back to... I'm taking back a very long time actually, because the people of Mesoamerica, including the Maya, the Aztecs, the Taltecs, the Tontanaks and the Inca. Now, I don't know a huge amount about these civilizations. I find them fascinating. I read Andrew Ma's History of the World and there's a lot about them in that. And it's one of those things I wish I'd studied actually

because, for instance, this is something I didn't know until Darul Awa, historian, did some research for us. The layout of towns and cities had a very symbolic purpose, deeply symbolic purpose. So if you'd viewed them from above, you would notice that there was a central plaza, and then from that central plaza, all the other aspects of the planning city would develop.

Right, now the largest plaza was found at the heart of the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, which was founded in the early 14th century and built on marshland, allied to Lake Texcoco. In all, the Tenochtitlan plaza measured 115,000 square meters. That's more than 10 football pitches. So generally, Mesoamericans, they made a distinction between the public realm, which was very, very carefully planned and was planned around Central Plaza, and

the private residential realm where people lived, which was absolutely not planned. Now, haphazard residential construction. Basically that was the done thing, right? That's so funny. So the community area where people came to gather was really well planned and the houses were just wherever there's space. Yeah. So I'm just thinking of my hometown. So where WH Smiths and Santander is, that was absolutely spotless. So you've got a town, you're like, oh yeah, okay. So we've got a Cafe Nero, we've got a Santander, we've got a Barclays Bank. There's a music shop over there. This is good. This is good stuff. And where do the people come out of the live? Oh my God, it's over there and it's a mess. Now, it was very, very haphazard. Now, one exception

was Chotiakan, which was a pre-Columbian, I hope I pronounced that properly, I did look it up on YouTube, indeed, it's a pre-Aztec city, which was established as long ago as 100 BCE. Will Barron Wow! Will Barron Yeah, yeah. Now, it's very interesting because it's developers. And the idea of there being a developer or developers to a city back then, they had very distinct ideas about how their city should be laid out. And it had grid systems. People love a grid.

People love a grid. I don't know where, I don't know if I feel like the grid is the best idea. I quite like London, you know, it's a bit all over the place. That is a better method. I like London for being all over the place. And you think that if the Great Fire of London hadn't happened, it's a bit all over the place. That is a better method. I like London for being all over the place. And you'd think that if the Great Fire of London hadn't happened, it would be even more all over the place. Even more all over the place, yeah. Well, I'm a fan of a grid, especially a potato in grid form, as we've discussed.

So it keeps you, makes you such a healthy, strong boy. So these grid systems were on to influence the design principles of Dernochitlan. Now, as any tourist will know, Chachewacken has got a five kilometer long, 40 meter wide central avenue, right, or a boulevard in place of a central plaza or a square. And this is known thanks to the Aztecs. I'm not sure they'd name it this in modern day. They named it the Avenue of the Dead. Not catchy enough. Sounds fun.

Dunno. Where you working these days then? The Avenue of the Dead. If I was on the Aztec tourist board, I'd be like we've got to rename this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, we rename it, we call it, I don't know, the High Street. We rename it, we call it, I don't know, the High Street. And then if anyone buys a decent guidebook, we can mention it near the end of the guidebook. The Avenue of the Alive? Is it supposed to just, do we draw from that, that quite a few people died in the building of the Avenue of the Dead?

Now it was orientated to point towards the nearby peak of Cerro Gordo and leads by the Plaza of the Moon to the Pyramid of the Moon. Along the route visitors passed the vast pyramid of the Sun, the Temple of Agriculture, the Temple of the Jaguars, probably won't be going there, the Temple of the Feathered Servant, yeah I fancy my chances with the Feathered Servant, and then it was a citadel and a marketplace. Now the avenue is intersected by an east-west avenue as well, which turns it into a sort of grid. Now in addition to the planned road systems and the public architecture, Chorchuaquan is notable for its more than 2,000 apartment compounds which house multiple families.

Now this, I had no idea that this happened so long ago. Apartment makes you sound really modern as well, doesn't it? There's something quite funny about an apartment. Will Barron It makes it sound like where you stay when you're on a lad's holiday. Will Barron Yeah, exactly. It's got a small balcony. Will Barron Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will Barron And you can see the pool beneath. Will Barron Do you think, here's a question, do you think you would have got Aztec estate agents?

Have you got 2,000 apartments to flog? Will Barron Now that's a fantastic question. And I don't often say that about you, but that is very, very good. Jason Vale There must have been. You can't have that much real estate without someone trying to manage it or flog it. It must have been someone's job. Will Barron That is such a good question. I don't know. Now these conf bands would orient it towards the city. Jason Vale The thing is though, very briefly, that this

is obviously pre-locks on the front door, which is the main role of a snake agent, is to have the keys to let you in, to show you around. In my experience, they let you in and they know absolutely nothing about the property they're showing you. Yeah, absolutely. We went to one once where there was rising damp on the wall and Claire pointed out my wife and said, oh yeah yeah, there's Rising Dump there. And he said, No, that's not a thing. Tried to claim that Rising Dump did not exist. No, that's not a thing. I went to see a place in Peckham and he stated, he let me in. Izzy couldn't be with me for some reason. This was just me looking at this place. He let me in. And then he went, sorry, it's going to be five minutes. Went to the toilet, took the paper with him. What, the toilet paper?

The guard? No, I think he means like a broadsheet, a guardian. The brochure? No, he took the Saturday telegram. Sat on the toilet, was here for a quarter of an hour, came out, washed his hands, wiped his hands on his toes and went, So what do you think? I was like, I don't know. It's a bit like... I think you should have gone earlier.

It's a bit like Chris's wedding in the workout. Bit of an odd vibe. Oh, that's horrendous. Do you want to see the bathroom? No, you're okay. No. You're alright. No!

I'll look at the bathroom pictures online. Now these compounds were orientated towards the city grid and they had drainage systems, toilets and a central courtyard adapted for domestic use. Wow. And compared to the tightly packed multi-level and often quite dangerous places that the Romans were living in around the same time, to Atchewacken's housing solution it was relatively spacious, it was even luxurious. Now this was city planning that managed to resolve most forms of social inequality guided by the apparent absence of a royal palace. Now the city's hundred

thousand and more residents lived in standardized structures. The exceptions were larger apartments in the various temples and pyramids which seemed to have been reserved for wealthier citizens. Now it was already long abandoned by the time the Aztecs discovered its ruins but from its remnants they recognized the value of these orthogonal lines and a deliberate system of planning adapting both for their own capital Tenochtitlan which they established in 1325 CE and that became the Aztec Imperial Capital when their empire was founded in 1428 CE. Now this new grid layout, New York has a grid layout, doesn't it?

Yes. Yes, it is a grid layout. And Milton Keynes, of course. Milton Keynes, yeah, of course. Incorporated a central plaza, pyramids, ball courts, schools, government buildings, and these sort of avenues slash causeways which link the island with the mainland and otherwise split the city into four quarters. That's so cool. It's so modern.

It is, yeah, that's amazing. Now canals run through the city as well, giving the impression, I suppose it would be like a bit like Venice or Rouge and these were navigated by canoe. There were residences for priests. I want to live there. It does sound quite good. Yeah, yeah. Oh, imagine it.

Without the stress of the iPhone, all this sort of crap that we have to deal with now. Nice bottle of Modelo, nice bottle of Sol. Oh, amazing. What a life. A burrito. Everyone's tanned. Everyone looks well and healthy. Fresh fruit.

I've been thinking to myself, yeah, yeah, I've lucked out here. There was even zoos, right? Yeah. There were residences of priests, there were families, the aristocracy, there were gardens, aviaries, as I said, zoos, but ordinary people compelled to live outside the central zone in neighborhoods known as Calpulli, which was taken from the Nottel word for big house.

And the Calpulli which was taken from the Nahuatl word for big house and the Calpulli were organised around temples marketplaces and even other local facilities. Now Tenochtitlan was barely 200 years old when the Spanish... The Calpulli always had a slight cold didn't they the Calpulli? Yes, shaped like a giant syringe. Bright pink. It was barely 200 years old when the Spanish arrived in 1519, led by Hernán Cortes. The city was sacked by the invaders two years later,

raising it to the ground. Oh. Do you know what? I mean, it still happens now, especially in times of warfare, where ancient monuments or buildings or just things are destroyed, destroyed forever. Like it was clearly working. Just adapt. Move in. Move in. Exactly. Have it as a second home. Yes. A holiday home. A weekend bolt hole. Great, in the sun. Now a new imperial capital, the heart of New Spain,

was built on the embers. Come on lads, why did he have to burn it to the ground? And recycling the masonry of Aztec Tenerchitlan, it was to be designated Mexo Tenerchitlan in 1524 and 1585. The city was renamed Mexico City, so either de Mexico. Now, the Spanish learned from the grid system as well, merging it with their own assumptions based on Madrid and other major Spanish cities,

and they used these principles in the design of their settlements in the Americas. So in place of the Mesoamerican Central Plaza was the Mexican Zocolo, or the Constitution Square, and it was originally known as the Plaza Meia, later the Plaza de Armas, and often renamed examples can be found, for example, in Lima, Buenos Aires, Montevideo,

Santiago, Caracas, all over the place, right? Now as a result, modern South America and its Mesoamerican ancestor found a sort of cultural fusion. That's so interesting. In something that's usually regarded as quite boring, town and city planning. That's absolutely fascinating. Wow. I just can't believe the scale of it. The way you

describe it, how many kilometres you describe the Avenue of Death, which actually then turned out to be sound quite pleasant. The Avenue of Nice. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But the scale of it, the time, the thought, the effort, it's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Right. Right, I'm going to tell you now about a certain dictator by the name of Joseph Stalin. Great moustache, bad attitude. Yes.

Yeah, so often the case throughout history. Wasn't the first, won't be the last. And speaking of which, I've started preparing for the Hitler biography review, which we'll be doing for subscribers very soon. Is it the Ian Kershaw one? Ian Kershaw, yeah. Oh, lovely. It is great.

Detailed. Some amazing scenes. Another guy, of course, Hitler, with a strange mustache. I'll tell you who didn't have a good... Not a hair on his head, Mussolini of Italy in the thirties, another European dictator. Now did you know that he set about doing a bit of city planning? Yeah, they often fancied it, didn't they, a bit of city planning. Dictators. You think

they'd have more on their plate or enough on their plate. Hitler was obsessed with his Rhodes, wasn't he? Yeah, he was as well. The Autobahn? Yeah, the Autobahn. I think that might be it. Yeah. Mussolini was inspired by Roman archaeology and wanted to mimic kind of Roman city planning by the creation of a brand new set of arterial routes, including the Via del Forri Imperiali

in Rome and train termini such as Florence's Santa Maria Novella. So Mussolini, he got stuck in. He got stuck in. Hitler as you just touched on there, Crane, yeah, he loved it. He had Albert Speer, his architect, draw up plans for Germania, which was meant to be a monumental world capital,

which would lay at the very heart of the Third Reich. And he actually had these models drawn up by Albert Speer, and he p poured over those models themselves in the last days of his life. He was often seen lost in thought, staring at the models of Germania as the Second World War drew to a close. He knew he was on the losing side, lost in his own ambition. I'm sure we'll hear more about that.

Do you think he was sort of like bringing in the model of Germania a bit, sort of removing bits, going, okay, I probably won't be able to do that bit now because things are going quite bad. So we'll move the swimming pool sections a bit unrealistic now considering how things are going. So we'll just get rid of that. That's fine. Okay. Will Barron Don't need a shed, just a small part of the small space for a barbecue actually. Neil Milliken Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

Will Barron He did actually do some stuff, Hitler. Thinking back now, this is not my notes, this is off the top of my head, but some victory pillars from previous battles were moved. His ambition for Germania is actually there in Berlin. Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. But let's go now to the USSR and in particular 1935, two years before the 20th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin announces big plans to remodel Moscow and make a new Moscow.

And Stalin, it was said, was unimpressed with the inherited tangle of czarist buildings which sprawled in every direction, had no sense of unity. When you look at the old drawings of Moscow and what Moscow looked like before all this, I have to say it's very London-like. It's very medieval London-like. What he didn't say was, do you know what, I love how Higgledy-piggledy he is. I think he's got character. There's a lot to be said for Higgledy-piggledy. I love Higgledy-piggledy. He doesn't seem like the sort of person who'd be into Higgledy-piggledy though, does he?

Stalin doesn't have a Higgledy-piggledy vibe. No he doesn't. Edinburgh's Higgledy-piggledy. Yeah. Yeah., doesn't he? Stalin doesn't have a Higgledy Piggledy vibe. No, he doesn't. Edinburgh's Higgledy Piggledy. Yeah. Yeah. He'd hate that. Stalin would have hate. He would hate the fringe. Imagine fighting Stalin. There would be nothing for him there.

On the Royal Mile. Yeah. Improv, 3pm, C-Venues. Improv, 3pm, C-Venues. Improv, 3pm, C-Venues. I can't do the Stalin impression. One of the things that he's yelling out from the audience in an improv night, Ellis. Okay, and it's another one set in Siberia. Workham! Yeah, can we not have work?

We can't do another... Oh my goodness me, please not. And a weapon, a pistol again, and a setting, an underground torture bunker again. No one in the improv group having the confidence to not do his next suggestion, even though they've basically done it four times, because it's Stalin, you just have to do it. Was that in a Gulag? Yeah, fine. Yeah, we could do that. In space? Is it Gulag in space? No? No, it's not. Okay.

Can we do the Lubyanka again? Can we do... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, God. Oh, God, he'd be a great craft. Stalin would be cracking up. He loved all that, didn't he? He was a very cruel man. Oh God. Oh God, he'd be a great craft. Stalin would be cracking up. He loved all that, didn't he? He was a very cruel man.

He would like the cruel humour of torturing some young improv artists into performing an execution again and again. So Stalin, he'd probably hate the Edinburgh Festival, but he also definitely hated the old way in which Moscow was laid out, sprawling in every direction, no sense of unity. What he wanted was designed districts, high-rise buildings, able to house a denser population. And he also wanted, interestingly about Stalin, lots of open space. So, he gave this whole process a really grandiose title, the general plan for the reconstruction of Moscow. Now here's what a leading member of the Soviet government

said at the time, the proletariat inherited a very intricate system of labyrinths, nooks, crannies, dead ends, and the alleys of old merchant and landowner Moscow. I'm going to interrupt to say, it sounds nice. I like that. Imagine you're wandering on a summer's evening. There's an old pub I've never seen before. I might go in there for a pint. I can feel the history in here. A pint of vodka. Lovely. Stalin's like, get rid of that. Back to our leading member of the Soviet government. The street goes on like that, like that. and suddenly in the middle of middle stands an absurd house with the rapid growth in the number of cars and other types of transportation. It will be impossible to live here unless the city

is replanned. The streets are not widened and straightened and new squares are not created." So interesting. If it all went to plan, and bear in mind they're planning this back in 1935, it would be completed in 1945, in time for Moscow's 700th anniversary in 1947. Not to defend, Stalin, but I would agree that there are some cities that are not built for driving. So some cities that are a bit of a nightmare, because obviously they were built at a time prior to the popularity of the motor cars. Yes, of course. Like Bath, where I grew up, lots of Bath is a real nightmare. because obviously they were built at a time prior to the popularity of the motor cars.

Like Bath, where I grew up, lots of Bath is a real nightmare. I would say that cities that are designed for driving are horrible. Los Angeles is horrendous. Is it really? OK, yes. Be glad that you were brought up in a place that wasn't designed for driving, because it's much, much nicer. Well, the Westway in West London. They were going to turn London into a city of concentric motorways.

Yeah. Were they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the big, that was the big plan. They were going to turn London into a city of concentric motorways and everyone was going to drive.

Wow. And they started it in the Westway. So if you've ever gone to the Westway and gone, this is great. I love this. And this is my in the Westway. So if you've ever gone to the Westway and gone, this is great. I love this. This is my favourite bit of London. Then unfortunately, it all could have been like that. If you go to the Westway and think, oh, this is fucking horrible, actually, a nice one. Then be glad that they never finished it.

I read that the M11 extension, which is where I I'm from in Wonsted, that's going to be the last major road works in London because they realised that if you expand your transport capacities in terms of roads, people just fill them. But if you don't expand them, then people will just get public transport or find other ways of getting about. So, if you adopt that Los Angeles model of just making loads and loads of roads, you'll get huge traffic problems because people go, that's the only way to get around.

Is there an argument in that case, Chris? It's time that we ripped up all the roads in London and repursed them with like really bumpy dirt tracks. Let's do it. As a way of sort of dissuade people from coming into the city. Reintroduce Roman roads. No, because I bought a road bike and I'd have to buy a gravel bike and I've been a one and I didn't like it. We can keep the cycle lanes.

Yeah, so as I was saying, they planned this in 1935 with the ambition that it would be completed in 1945. What was happening to Russia between those years of 35 to 45? Oh, Stalin's plans up in smoke. But good news, they're only delayed in the event. They were delayed, but it was mainly done between 1947 and 1953 in the end. So not the end of the world. I do have an issue though with the planning that was that it would be ready for the 700th

anniversary of Moscow in 1947. What does that mean? When cities say this, it's our 700th anniversary. Since, since the first person turned up and was like, I'm going to stay here. Where did the city snatch these, these dates from? I think that's because you're a Londoner. Yeah. And London is such an old city. I think it's much harder to work it out for someone like London.

Yeah. Yeah. Cardiff got city status, I think, I'm plugging this off from the top of my head in 1905, and then was the capital of Wales in 1955. So as I think for a long time, I don't know if it probably isn't anymore, but it was for a long time was Europe's youngest capital. And then you've got Swansea got city status in 1969. So it's much easier to say these things then.

Yeah, because we were Swansea Town Football Club until 1969. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. Oh, why? You were Swansea Town, no? You were Swansea City. That's how Cardiff City fans still refer to us. As Swansea Town.

Cause they're, and any means possible to disparage us. But London obviously is so old and it's so big. It's much harder to do that, I think, for London and lots of places. I don't recall a big London anniversary. In any event, the ambitious plans for Moscow were never quite realised, although quite a lot was finished by the time Stalin died, including the so-called Seven Sisters. So there was a whole series of skyscrapers built, which housed the foreign ministry, the university, etc.

The Moscow metro system and the demolition of the old city walls, they all went. But in particular, Stalin was keen to get some skyscrapers going. He said, foreigners will come to Moscow, walk around and see there are no skyscrapers. If they compare Moscow to capitalist cities, it will be a moral blow to us. So Stalin loved a bit of green space, but he also wanted skyscrapers. He saw that as a real kind of shining example of modernity that he wanted for Moscow. That's really interesting.

Until, I would say, the early 2000s, London was bizarrely low rise. Yes. Was it? A lot of those really big buildings, like thekin and the Shard, etc. and the Cheese Grater, they're quite new. Yes, obviously those are. Canary Wharf was the first big building I remember. Apart from the Home of Football

Upton Park. But I'm from the Park. You don't really refer to yourselves as the Home of Football, do you? I now refer to the London yourself as the home of football do you? That's hilarious. I now refer to the London Stadium as the home of football. You can see all of London from a park very near my house and it's one of those views that's sort of sacred views. All the really tall buildings were all built in the last 25 years or so. Will Barron Well, you see early images, let's say you see images of London in the 18th century or the Great Fireland in that sort of time, 17th century. St Paul's really sticks out as the building above everything. And I think for a long time,

that probably was the case. But I didn't realise it was that recent. I assumed there was skyscrapers quite a lot in the 80s and that sort of stuff, but I'm wrong, obviously. Will Barron Because you had the BT Tower. I assume there was skyscrapers quite a lot in the 80s and that sort of stuff, but I'm wrong obviously. Because you had the BT Tower. Yeah. That's a weird building. What is that? I've never told you about it.

I've been up the BT Tower. I had a meeting there once. And it's really crap inside. Or it was. This is probably 2013. It's a top spin. It used to. I don't think it does anymore.

There used to be a restaurant up there. I think there's going to be a restaurant again. They've had to reopen it as a restaurant or a hotel. But the BT Tower, I think it was Tony Ben who was in charge of that. Oh really? Are you sure that's not a fever dream? No. I think that the BT Tower, which was for a long time the tallest building in London,

wasn't it? I think it was Tony Ben who signed off the building of the Beattie Tower. The other one is the Oxo Tower, which is a restaurant. I was sitting by myself. Are all of the meals Oxo based in the Oxo Tower? Is there a more British building than the Oxo Tower? Based on a gravy cube? The PG Tips Tower next door is equally. in the Oxo Tower. Based on a gravy cube.

The PG Tips Tower next door is equally... I've had a meal in the Oxo Tower, it's very nice. What did you have? I had a beef stew. Bovril. Served by that lady who used to be in the Oxo advert, so like the family. The BT Tower was opened by Tony Benn. I knew he was something to do with it in 1966. Gee, I'm telling you, Tony Ben. What a booking that is. Who's booked that? Well, it was the post office tower, I think. And he was minister for... He was postmaster general.

So he was sort of... It was... It did make sense. It was on brand. Well let me tell you about the Soviets. The other thing they wanted to do is bring the standards of their roads up to modern standards. So they asphalted everything.

All the different road services were asphalted between 1938 and 1939. But they also introduced a whole new set of buildings into Moscow. This is a weird thing to think about. So 50 cinemas. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Fine with that.

Seven clubs. Can you imagine Starlin signing off on that? Wow. No. You want seven nightclubs, Starlin? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Definitely. No alternative comedy in any of them though. Yep, we want two foreign offers. Late license, the worst. It must not, I repeat, not turn into the Edinburgh Fringe. Six hotels, three palaces of culture and nine department stores. And then visible signs of these plans were in place at Red Square, which Red Square doubled in size in the 1930s as buildings were torn down to create a central parade square capable

of accommodating tanks and other large military vehicles, which you saw a lot of at the end of the Second World War, those famous parades. An urban legend even says that Kaganovic, the official in charge of the remodelling efforts, got carried away and planned the demolition of St Basil's Cathedral until Stalin intervened and told him, no, no, no, put it back nearby. Yeah, knocking down. But I mean, I kind of like British, what's that? Is it British heritage? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. English heritage. Quite good at that stuff. Not knocking down important monuments. Kazan Cathedral though, wasn't quite as fortunate. Kazan Cathedral was knocked down in 1936, but then incredibly rebuilt after the fall of the Soviet Union. Wow.

And like Mussolini, Stalin remodeled the road system, expanding Svezgaya Street, which had been an important thoroughfare since the 18th century into Moscow's main archery, to be known as Gorky Street. Every church and monastery and almost every historic building was torn down and single-storey buildings were replaced with multi-storey ones. The process continued long into the 1970s when the city's hotel in Tauris was built, with accommodation for foreigners coming to the city's hotel in tourist was built with accommodation for foreigners coming to the city on special package holidays. Most remarkably, the city's

central eye hospital was lifted and moved 20 yards from its original location. Kind of like when you read about this in local news when houses on the near cliffs that are subject to coastal erosion get moved 20 yards. They move the city's central eye hospital 20 yards. Not ideal if you're already having problems with your eyesight and struggling to find the front door of the hospital. The last thing you need is for it to be moved 20 yards to the right. You're in it at the time. Whoa!

Wow. Even more astonishing, they moved… This is so comprehensive. I know, obviously, it's Stalin, but it's just like the swathes of change. Incredible. Even more incredibly, they moved the eye hospital while surgeons were performing operations in the operating theatre. They didn't close it down and get everyone out. They moved it with the people in there still doing operations. I mean, I just said that as a joke.

What do you mean they actually moved? They moved, you mean? They didn't tell them that. They moved it with all the people. The surgeons were still in there performing operations. Yeah. But how do they move it? It's the Soviet Union, Tom. They can do what they want. What is it, a porter cabin? How are they moving? You can't just move a building, sliding a beer mat underneath it and sort of put, what are they doing? How are they doing it? Will Barron It's like when you take a tablecloth off,

you still leave all of the gallery. Neil Milliken Okay, this is a method of moving it that I am actually familiar with, Tom, you'll be glad to know. So what they did is they kind of sheared the central eye hospital from its foundation, rotated it 97 degrees, jacked it all up and hitched it onto rails and on those rails they just pushed it back 20 yards. That's the most remarkable thing I've ever heard. Yeah? Astonishing, right?

And they didn't think to get it, surgeons were operating the whole time. Or at least, that's what the official media told people. Wow. New housing, though, would have to wait until after the Second World War. The dismal apartment blocks associated in the popular imagination with Soviet planning actually sprang up in the 1950s and 1960s on the initiative of Stalin's eventual successor Khrushchev. So when you see those kind of bleak East German style brutalist architecture, those apartment blocks, that was actually not Stalin.

That was mainly in Moscow, at least. That was Khrushchev. And he had to find housing in Moscow alone for a city that had expanded to five million people. And at the time, the housing stock was designed for two million people. So basically, he had to find an answer for three million people. Where are they going to live? Wow. And of course, they did that through prefab for three million people. Where are they going to live? Wow.

And of course, they did that through prefabricated apartment blocks, a solution they used all over Europe after the Second World War. Initially, they had five-story prefabricated apartment blocks, but eventually as many as 16 stories high. And that temporary accommodation still houses even today, large swathes of the city's population. It was meant to be temporary but it's still there in a lot of cases. And interestingly as well, they actually baked in the idea that the population would grow. When they were designing 50 cinemas, they were doing it with the vision that the city

would one day be much larger. How interesting. So they didn't necessarily have the demand for 50 cinemas when they built them, but they knew in future they're going to have that many people. So what he built was just in case cinemas. We better build a couple of just in case cinemas. That's amazing. I'm going to say it. Stalin invented the multiplex. Yeah. Stalin's world was propped up by pick and mix, wasn't it? That's the thing, as you say, Chris.

We've talked about this before in the podcast. Little do we know that Soviet Russia was supported entirely through the cost of flumps and whatever things were. The Soviet Union only existed to sell prawn foams. You heard it here first. You heard it here first. So that is the end of our city planning episode. Thank you so much for listening. One brief thing if you do want to become an O what's our time full-timer? Which has a huge impact on the show really allows us to do more and more stuff and make the show better and better. It really has a huge impact. It's £4.99 a month. You get the shows ad free, you get part

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