Oh What A Time... - #105 Forgeries (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

It’s time to trawl the historical archives for some of humanity’s great forgeries. We’ve got the infamous Dutch painter Han van Meegeren and the story of how he fooled Herman Goring. An incredible ruse concocted by ‘Iolo Morganwg’. Plus, we’ll be looking into the stories of those found guilty of ‘coin clipping’ in the 1600s.And birthday cards… Do we need them? And are fake IDs still a thing? So many questions and we need your answers, so do email in: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's audible.com slash wonder ECA. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that asks the question, was the pre-birthday card age actually that bad? Do birthday cards mean anything to you? Who invented them? Do you care when you get them? Do they immediately go in the bin slash recycling? Do you keep them? Do you cherish them? I personally am not particularly bothered. Especially the ones that just say, to Ellis from, and then it'll be, you know, no message at all. Apart from the one that's already printed in the card. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'd be too well, it's the printed bit do the work.

Thinking of you on your birthday from Andy. That, to me, is just a complete waste of time. There is a worse card, Matt Noel, of course, which is the big card handed around the office for all workplaces, whatever your workplace is, for someone you don't really know that much about. And then the pressure as you're reading the other things people have written thinking, I can't just replicate what they've written, but I've got to write something that suggests I like this person. What do I do? What do I do? And then you're holding the card. Do you think to yourself, oh, there's a Mark working in this office. Who's that? Never met Mark. I wonder who Mark is. Oh, there's a Janet. Have you ever been upsold onto the giant card on like when you're like using Moon Pig or Funky Pigeon, where you get a card for your loved one, but I did it for my wife. And then it was like Valentine's Day.

And it said, would you like to upgrade to a bigger card? I was like, well, I love my wife. So I upgraded to like an A3 card. It was absolutely enormous. Maybe it wasn't A3, it was, it was huge. It was so impractical. Any gust of wind, it was flying across the room. Are you filling it with pros and loads and loads of writing or big bubble writing to

sort of take up the space? What are you going for in that situation? How are you dealing with the, okay. The bubble writing just naturally flows because you're like, I've got take up the space. What are you going for in that situation? How are you dealing with the... Will Barron The bubble writing just naturally flows because you're like, I've got to consume this space. Will Barron Yeah, bubble writing full of biblical quotes. They don't even mean anything. You just think to yourself, I can just fill the text, get a lot of biblical quotes in there. It'll make me look really profound. Will Barron Every year, Claire gets me a Christmas card

and a birthday card and then fails. No, she buys it and every time fails to fill it in. And I find it about a week after the event, just blank on a side where she's meant to fill it in, but she hasn't. But it's become a bit of a running joke now, but it's, she's never got around to filling them in. She does buy them from the shop, but then they're left on the site as a thing to do and then they're never filled in and I find them a week after the event. Are they getting presented to you?

Is it like, here's your card and you just find it? No, I just find them, I'll find it by the air fryer. It'll have something on the front which relates a bit to me. It might be, I don't know, someone kicking a football or something. Someone with underpants falling out of their trousers. Marridge is hilarious, isn't it? Like, as he was on BBC Breakfast the other day

to promote a kids sitcom she's in with Nigel Boyle who was in Line of Duty and Robert Webb. It's called High Hoops. And so she was on BBC Breakfast and she was on with Nigel. They were on for 10 minutes just before eight o'clock. At the end, Nigel got an amazing text message from his wife. Oh my God, the two of you are so great. I love that.

He got loads of messages from his family. Did I send a message to Izzy? No, of course I didn't. When she... Has she listened to this podcast? No, of course she hasn't. I think she has a vague idea that I do a podcast with the two of you. Yeah. I don't think she knows what it's about.

Absolutely. No, that's the same. I've written four series of the sitcom on Radio 4. Claire has written, listen to the pilot and then has not listened to anything past that point. Just doesn't care. And she quite enjoyed the pilot as well. She didn't go, that's not for me. She just went, that's enough. I've shown him that I'm aware it exists. Sof came in the other day that chuckling, saying, I'm listening to her. What a time. Oh my gosh, it's so funny. It was like, what episode are you on?

She was like, 11. I was like, we're in three figures. What have you been doing? Yeah. I do a podcast with John Robbins and there's a feature on that called the Cymru Connection where I try to find a connection with Welsh people in 60 seconds, right? And I've got a success rate of over 50%. Izzy doesn't listen to the podcast and isn't on social media. So the clips do quite well on Instagram, for example. The bloody Welsh news covered in a couple of weeks cried. He was like,

why are you on the news? I was like, well, because of Cymru Connection. What's that? What's a feature where I try and find connections with Welsh people in 60 seconds? Oh, that sounds quite good. Yeah, I've been doing this since July. It shows you how weird your working day is that that hasn't come up as a thing you'd mentioned. That there's a regular minute in your working day where you're quickly trying to identify people who live in Wales that you might have a link to and that hasn't come up in conversation about your day. Well, that sounds good. In regards to this, this show, I have a friend called Shell, who you might have met as well,

Chris, I think you've met Shell, who told me that she loves the show. And then this is about a year and a half in, I said, oh, what episode do you like? I really like that one you did on fashion. Now fashion, if anyone's listened to the show will know, was our first episode. So that's the one you remember. Continue to listen to the same one. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Finally trying to get to the bottom of fashion.

I do actually have a worst Christmas card I've ever seen, which was my dad gave my nephew a Christmas card, which was the old front of a Christmas card from the previous year, some horses running in the snow, stuck to the silver lid from a Chinese takeaway container. And then, Happy Christmas written in ink above it, just like pen ink on the takeaway lid. It didn't fold. It was no longer a folding card. It was just a silver lid for a Chinese takeaway with a picture of a snowy horse on the front with the words happy birthday written in pen above it. Oh no, happy Christmas, sorry. I'm not laughing because I'm so overwhelmed by how much I love that. My body doesn't know

how to respond. That's not me'm I don't know what to say. I love it. I'll laugh about that tomorrow. I don't know what that might be the thing that gets easy to listen to this podcast. The same year that my mum brought my nephew for Christmas, what she thought was a jigsaw just of Australia. And it turned out when he got out of the packet, it was a mouse mat of a kangaroo. And out of the kangaroo's mouth came the word, it's fucking bonzer. Which was my six-year-old nephew. A mouse mat with the words, it's fucking bonzer.

Six-year-old. Doesn't have a computer. Shouldn't be here in that language. A mouse mat. Anyway, that was incredible. Right, today's show. You're either out. It's all coming at once. My body's worked out how to react, but too late. What kind of shop would sell that? No idea. Once. My body's worked out how to react, but too late. What kind of shop would sell that? No idea.

Yeah. Where would she go? PC World are not stocking that. She bought it in a charity shop. I do know that. That is true. There's a very funny couple of Simpsons episodes, one in particular that reference how in vogue Australian stuff was in the US around the time of Crocodile Dundee. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. It's a really, it's a really funny episode of like these shops that sell generic Australian stuff that have all gone out of business because Crocodile Dundee was hugely

popular for quite a short time. It was the biggest thing in the world for about a year and a half, wasn't it? Yeah. Paul Hogan. Great movie, to be fair. That's not a knife, this is a knife. Now there's a quote from a movie. Oh yeah, and when he stops the mug up, I throw in like a can of cannellini beans. It's good stuff. It's good stuff. Paul Hogan's still alive, by the way. Is he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that absolutely blew my mind. 85 years old, yeah. Still going strong. He was in fantastic shape in Crocodile D. But I suppose that makes sense. He is like a bush. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. He was supposed to be someone who was ripped and sort of living in the

wild, was able to wrestle crocodiles, wasn't he? Whatever it was. Would it be weird if he looked like, just like a dad from Crystal Palace? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bit overweight. Yeah, bit dad yeah, yeah. Bit overweight, bit dad bod. Naked after 12 seconds of wrestling the crocodile. Dad bod Dundee, let's make it. Really, really white legs. And a Brompton. Falling over as he hits bumps in the desert. Okay.

I'm not having a good time actually. The desert is horrible. There's no way to get a bloody coffee. That would be an awful challenge cycling across the outback on a Brompton. That would be, if it was a comic relief challenge, what it happens to be. Not in a month of Sunday, do I say yes to that? You wouldn't last five minutes. If the snakes don't eat you, you'll die, won't you? Like dehydration within an hour. That's a good point. You're really low to the ground, so you're near to the animals that are trying to get you as well. And the wheels can't take any sort of change in terrain. Let's not do it. Let's not do it.

Okay. Let's crack on to some correspondence. But before that, we should briefly say what this episode is about. This episode is about... Chris Garle, what is it about? This episode is about forgeries. This is a good episode. This is good stuff. Have you ever tried to forger something? No. No, too honest. The odd passport here and there. I'm that combination. I mean, and this doesn't lend itself to being a good forger. I'm that

combination of being too honest and unimaginative. So I wouldn't know what to forge. And I wouldn't be very good at it anyway. Bloody hell, Paul Hogan got married in 1958. That's how old he was when he did Croconal D. He was born in 1939, is the Second World War. The second World War is just getting going. Good on him. Christ. That's amazing.

So have you never had a fake ID, Earl, then? No. I didn't either. I would have been too guilt tripped to use one, so I didn't. When I was a teenager, I just used to go to the pubs that I knew would serve the underage. I never had a fake ID. Yeah. Again, yeah, too honest slash nervous. I think I'd have thought that if a copper had found me with a fake ID, then the copper

would have sort of thrown the book at me, like, for a second time. Right, okay, yeah. I'm having two books thrown at me. I didn't go out until I was 18, that's what I did. I would take my passport with me when I first went out in Bath, that was my thing. I would have my passport in my back pocket on nights out. Where were you going out? Latvia?

I used to... Poonana. My dad used to take his birth certificate with him, but that doesn't prove anything. No. It's just a document, isn't it? It's just a photo. It just proved that a baby was born once. Yeah, you could have Paul Hogan's birth certificate prove that he'd been born in Australia in 1939. Trying to go on the piece of command at age 60.

You're doing your A-levels. By contrast, I'm assuming that Chris had about three or four fake IDs, which he was using from the age of 13. I did have a fake ID. I had a fake National Union of Students card that got me into a Hymes Park snooker club where I would drink Bacardi Breezer. Oh yes. That's okay.

That's such an East End story. Or the Bacardi Breezer you can drink. Two, and then you throw up. It's quite a sweet and innocent crime. But today's episode, as Chris said, is about forgeries. I'm going to be talking about, quite interesting, it's mainly women who have forged coins throughout history and what happened to them. There's some fascinating stories of women who've done that and it was quite a brave thing to do in the past as you will find out. Oh okay. I am talking about Jollomor Gannogh, the stonemason slash

forger who was behind the Welsh national Stedford, one of Wales's great cultural institutions. And I'm talking about the forgery that is Paul Hogan's birth certificate that has the world believing he was born in 1939, but surely is impossible. He was actually born in 18. When he made Crocodile D, he was 145 years of age. He's been ripped for 200 years. It's the blood of crocodiles that keep him going. At night he has to sort of feast on the neck of a crocodile to give himself another decade. I should say, I'm not talking about Paul Hogan's birth certificate, I'm talking about an infamous

Dutch painter called Han van Meegeren who forged many infamous artworks. Oh amazing, oh that sounds fantastic. Before we do that, shall we get into some correspondence? That sound good? Let's do it. This email I would say is up there with the best we've received. Okay. It is a fantastic email. Ellis, I hate to ask you again, do you want to do a jingle for one of those emails that really matter, that will stick within the history of this

history pod? Okay then. I love it when you send us a letter. Scrap that, an email is better. So good. It's really good actually. Genuinely good. There's money in that, Al. There really is. I don't know who to contact and how to access that money, but there's money. I think Berry Gordy, the man behind Motown Records. There you go. Whoever came up with that whistle for McDonald's, for example, what is that person made? You could do that.

What? Da da da da da. Yeah, that could be you. That was, um, that was Justin Timberlake. Was it? Yeah. Wow. He is good, isn't he? May not be my vibe music wise, but he's clearly got some kind of talent. Right. Amelia has got in contact with the show to say hello to my favourite podcasters. Oh, isn't that nice? I've been listening to the podcast since day one. I'm a full timer. Yay. As you all should

be. 4.99 a month. A bargain. So many episodes you listen to that are only available to subscribers, first tip on tickets. No adverts. And also you can go up to our respective wives, talk about the podcast and they won't know what they're talking about. But when you tell them you're putting £4.99 a month into our family coffers, they will appreciate it. Oh yeah, yeah, they'll love it. They'll be so glad. So Amelia, sorry, oh sorry, Amelie, sorry, says, I cannot begin to express the sheer delight I feel right now because I finally have a worthy reason to contact you.

And this is a brilliant thing she sent us. Whilst wandering around a sculpture garden in Reykjavik, Iceland last week, I stumbled upon a work of art so incredible that I literally shouted, lips to teat! Briefly explain what lips to teat is Ellis. Do anyone who's joined us recently? We were talking about the first people who decided to milk cows, what they were thinking of and why they decided to drink it. Because it's actually, if you think back to the genesis of it, it's a very, very odd thing to do and quite a risk. Did you milk the cow into a bucket

and then drink from the bucket, or did you go lips to teet? The conversation then moved on to, if you had to go lips to teet to any animal, which animal would you choose? It was the inevitable way that conversation would progress. And to say Izzy doesn't listen to this, insane. Exactly, the stuff she's missing out on. Now, that I literally shouted, Lips to Teet, an exclamation that unfortunately led to about seven confused tourists turning around. Obviously,

I turned around as well as if to say, who said that? But please behold the image I have sent to you, for it answers the eternal question, who is the first person to go lips to teeth? Now I'm going to put an image on our group now, if you'll pop on our little WhatsApp group. There you go, there is the image that has been sent around. I'm excited about this. Whoa, what's going on? Oh, there we go. Now, grief. This thing there is a man literally underneath a cow suckling on the cow. His face couldn't

be any more in the udders than they are, could they? But having seen cows, that man is a giant or that cow has got big problems. Because the man is as big as the cow. It could be a calf. And that's just… That sounds good. It could be a calf. And that's just... That sounds good. It could be a young cow. Yeah, but can you suckle from a calf?

Because you can't, can you? I'm not sure what the rules are with any of this. That's a good point. Well, let me tell you what it is, shall I? I mean, they're in a 69 position. Yeah. He's 69-ing a cow. Absolutely, Billy Pink Bonks.

Why would you, I mean I'm not having a go at the sculptor, why would you, I am actually, why would you carve that? 60 lining a cow, is that what you said? Do you know how you read that Chris? In the Kama Mutra. The Mut Kama Mutra? Oh Tom. That's so good.

So good. If I were going to go lips to tea, I wouldn't prone myself like that under the other. I was always imagining you're going in from the side. Yes. Yeah, me too. He is asking to be Trump, obviously. Well, let me give you some further information as sent to us about what this actually is. This is sculpted by Einar Hansen.

The statue depicts Aimer, or Ymir, I might be pronouncing that wrong, a frost giant, who according to Norse mythology was the first living person. And as you can see, he is suckling away at the udders, and she's written ëur, of Ardumia, who is the first living animal. So that is the image of the first living person, according to Norse mythology, suckling on the first living animal, which is a cow there. Feel free to share my image on Instagram, which we will do, definitely.

So I was so excited, it's a bit of a NAF photo. Luckily, if you Google it, much better pictures come up. So there you have it, the first Lipstrateat collab, and that is from Amma. Second time I've been shown or told something on this podcast today, that I don't know how to respond to it. I don't know how I'm meant to feel looking at this photo. What are you more shocked by? The idea of a giant suckling a tiny

cow or the fact that my dad sent a picture of a snowy horse on a Chinese takeaway lid to my nephew for Christmas? It all just adds up into this big castle on a surprise. History is fascinating. Thank you very much for that, Emma, as you've named yourself at the end. That's a fantastic email. And do you know what? I think I'm going to take that as the answer. I think that's right. That is the first person. I'm happy to go with that. The first person who went dip-steak was Eamir, who was suckling away on an animal called Adrilla. There you go. So that's the answer to who was the first person to go lip-synch. Picked off. Great email. Thank you very much. So if you have anything you want to send to

the show, be it lips to teeth related, be it, you know, family members who have done incredible things in history, one day time machine stuff, whatever, we love to hear from you. And here's how you get in contact with the show. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at owattertime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at owattertimepod. Now clear off. And if you want even more Oh what a time, don't forget you can become an Oh what a time full-timer, get bonus episodes to every month, the whole archive of bonus episodes to be enjoyed, ad-free listening, episodes early, lots more good stuff. For all your options,

go to owhatatime.com where you can sign up via another slice or Wondery Plus. But are we ready to discuss forgeries? Oh yes. Do you know what, I was thinking about forgeries. I remember talking to my dad about treating or talking to little kids like they're adults and whether that's a good thing. And dad used to talk to me about history

from a very young age, so I've always loved it. But I remember him once, so I tried to explain the Hitler diaries to you once and I said, oh yeah, and you went, but you didn't get it. You didn't understand. Now the Hitler diaries were sort of published in 1983. I was born in November 1980. Can you imagine trying to explain to a two yearold about the ideas forged Hitler diaries? Both the concept of Hitler and the concept of diaries. I know what you mean.

And the concept of forgery. What do you attack first, Hitler or the diary? The concept of buying something when you think it's genuine for millions of pounds. So I don't know anything about the Hitler Diaries. What are the Hitler Diaries? I'll talk about them a bit later in this, but yeah, there was a famous forgery in Germany. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, in the early 80s.

In the early 80s. And a historian called Hu Trevor Rupp, a very famous historian, initially authenticated to them and said that they were genuine and they weren't. Wow. But they'd been bought for millions by a German magazine. And I think they were published because people were like, oh my God, we're actually going to find out what Hitler was thinking. And he was all bollocks. And I just couldn't understand that age too. I'm glad to see you finally wrapped your bloody head around it. And I think it's okay

that you didn't understand it at that age as well, L. I wouldn't beat yourself up about that. I'm actually a bit disappointed. Well, actually, we're going to talk about some Nazi forgeries right now, but actually these are forgeries that Nazis themselves were the victims of. Interesting story, going back to May 1945. A painter is arrested in the Netherlands and charged with having been a member of the Dutch Nazi party and having conspired with the recent Nazi occupation by selling valuable paintings, including those from the Dutch Golden Age to the enemy, thus making a personal fortune and

profiteering from the war. The penalty for these crimes was death as a traitor. Wow. So the painter's apparent involvement was traced because of the sale of a Vermeer, Christ and the Adulteress, to a little fella, although he's not that little, called Herman Goring. It was found, this painting, Christ and the Adulteress, in Goring's personal collection by an American army officer, Captain Harry Anderson. Now, the painter was a man called Han van Miegeren and he had sold this painting to Goring for the price of as many as 200 original Dutch paintings. So he gave him this one in exchange for 200 original Dutch paintings. Well, a one to 200 swap.

Yeah. Yeah. Goring was like, great. Yeah. So they did that deal. Van Meegeren explained to the authorities that, wait, no, you must understand something. The painting I gave to Goring that he believed was a Vermeer was actually a forgery and that I am not a collaborator with the local

Nazis. No, no, no. I am in fact a national hero who was given during a forgery in exchange for bringing back all these Dutch classics into our collection, into our ownership. What do you think of that? Are you having this defence? You're on the jury? The amount of bottle that takes. I'm listening. I'm listening, to be fair. It's interesting. I've heard worse defences again. So was this man an active Nazi beforehand, you say? Well, I'll give you his backstory.

Because that would be one of my main concerns. Yeah. It's an interesting... Yes. So after... Like, personality-wise, is it a 180? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Possibly. Yes. So after... Like personality wise, is it a one-eighth? Yeah, exactly. Van Meegeren explained that he'd done loads of different forgeries.

When they went back through Goring Stash, they started noticing, hang on, he has got some other forgeries in here. And Van Meegeren said, this isn't the only Vermeer I've faked, there's actually five in circulation in the art world, along with two other imitations of the 17th century artist, Peter de Hooch, all sold since 1937. So Van Meegeren is basically, his defence is, I've actually been forging these famous paintings for years and years, the goring one you've got me on was just one of many that I have created. So he's flooded the market with forged paintings then? Yes.

Flooded. But suddenly he introduced forged paintings to the market. Okay. So Van Meeuwen's trial began in October 1947 in Amsterdam. And they said that basically the trial begins and they say, right, you say you're so good at forgery. So then here's what we'd like you to do. Quite a lot of pressure for the person doing the court drawings there.

Go, this guy's good. I've really got to nail this. Van Meegeren was asked, if you say you can do this, prove the validity of your claim, make another perfect forgery. How good is it? A lot of pressure on. That's a great twist in the story. Love it. That's fantastic. From his cell, he was instructed to fake another Vermeer, Jesus among the doctors. You have five Crayola crayons, a ruler, and the back of an envelope and 10 minutes.

This is where Taskmaster came from, wasn't it? Yeah, so he had to prove to the court that he had the skills and the technique to do as he had claimed, like faking Vermeers. So one thing they couldn't understand was how has he got this ability to harden oil paints at a more rapid speed than the 50 years it normally takes? This is what they didn't believe him on. And Van Meegeren said, I was determined to prove my worth as a painter by making a perfect 17th century canvas.

So this is what he did. It was fairly elaborate. He mixed pigment with bake-like and then cooked the canvas in an oven. He then took out a real but minor 17th century painting, scraped off most of the existing art using a pumice stone and water, and painted his forgery over the top making sure to preserve the network of cracks and blemishes which created the illusion of age. Wow.

Which people were amazed. That is brilliant to be fair. Yeah. Clever. But in the end Van Miegren was convicted of forgery and spent a year in jail. He expected two years at the most since, as he told an American reporter, that is the maximum punishment for such a thing. I know this because I looked it up in our laws 12 years ago before I started this. He had worked it out. He started forgerying paintings because he worked out,

well actually I could probably get a couple of years at most. I'll do a year inside. Yeah. Wow. This is incredible. I've never heard of this book. So did you say he was threatened with a sentence of death at one point? Yeah, as a traitor. So was he doing this painting? This painting was to try and save his life, was it?

Yeah, he was basically painting to save his life. The pressure in that. I was stressing GCSER. Unbelievably, so he was expecting a maximum punishment of two years. He died a month after he was sent down of a heart attack at the age of 58. You wanted the Van Meegeren backstory. So he had actually tried the legitimate route. He had been to an art school in Delft and he was able to earn commissions

for painting church interiors and he exhibited his paintings in The Hague. And then after the first world war, his life basically just spiraled out of control. He got addicted to drink, addicted to drugs, he got divorced. Then he was having all these rows about contemporary art, having all these debates. He stood for tradition in the age of Picasso and German expressionism. Basically, he became just really

disenchanted. He published a series of racist articles which ended his art career. of like racist articles which ended his art career. And so he moved to France and from there concocted this plan to start faking Vermeers. The first one he did was Christ and the Disciples at Emmaus. And it was to be painted at Van Miegeren's house east of Monte Carlo on the Mediterranean. And when one of these first forgeries was revealed to the art world in September, 1937,

it was authenticated, much like the Hugh Trevor Roper Hitler diaries. The first, one of the first forgeries he made was authenticated by a renowned expert, Abraham Bredius. Much in the same way as Hitler's diaries had been authenticated. But Van Meegeren, interestingly, the guy who authenticated his artwork, he hated this Bredius guy, the man who had authenticated his fake, after Brideas had foiled an earlier attempt at a forgery he'd done. So he wished to reveal all and discredit him, but Van Meegrin was given a huge sum of money

for this forgery that he'd done of Vermeer, about $5 million in today's money. Wow! That forgery he created that Brideas had authenticated sold for five million dollars and then he went to Nice after this van Miegrin started working on yet more forgeries. In his lifetime it is thought that he made somewhere in the region of 20 million dollars by duping the art world and it was only when that forgery in the collection of Hermann Göring was discovered that he outed himself. And you've got to wonder, would he have been discovered were it not for selling that painting to Hermann Göring?

And also makes you wonder how many of these paintings are still in circulation and people feel are the originals, but are not going to be lost. That's amazing. Amazing story, isn't it? are the originals, but are not going to be lost. Yeah. That's amazing. Amazing story, isn't it? It really is. It's just the image of him painting in the cell. And that's the one I find. That's such a striking image.

The pressure of that, having to pull off a copy of one of the greatest painting to save your own life. Markable. Oh my God. I couldn't do it. Do you think, Crane, there's a version where you're on trial and they say, write us a really good Radio 4 sitcom pilot now to prove you are one of Britain's finest comedy writers?

Yeah. Come on! I tell you, I think the pressure of being in prison... Not a huge amount of jokes on this first page. I wouldn't be feeling at my funniest, I think, in prison. I'd be mainly panicked for my own welfare. Thinking less about puns. Wow absolutely fascinating stuff. Well that's the end of part one, part two will

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