Oh What A Time... - #107 Hitler by Ian Kershaw [Bonus Episode]

Episode Date: June 7, 2026

** We're 'off' this week due to half term, so please enjoy these old subscriber episodes in the mean time! And for more bonus episodes (and next week's episode) head to: patreon.com/ohwhatatime **For one of this month’s subscriber specials, we’re looking at Ian Kershaw’s biography of Adolf Hitler; a man Ian describes as “the embodiment of modern political evil”.We’ll trace the book through Adolf’s early family years, his wasted youth in Vienna, his public speaking and his gradual disappearance from public view as Germany’s war effort faltered and things draw to a close in a Berlin bunker. From drinking gun oil to his brief flirtation with lederhosen - we’ll try to cover the beats you might have missed from the life of one of the most infamous men to have ever lived.And thank you so much for being a Full Timer, we couldn’t make the show without you.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh Water Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus if you become an O Water Time All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis will riff on your name to postulate

where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime. Hello and welcome to Oh, What a Time, and I have to say, due to half term, we've taken this week off. However, we do have these two subscriber episodes for you to enjoy, which our subscribers over at Patreon have had access to for over a year, but they're still very good. Enjoy this. Hello and welcome to Oh, What a Time, the history podcast, the demands of you. Please leave us a review, five stars on Apple or Spotify, preferably Apple. We're only 13. away from a thousand. Come on guys. We need your help. I'm desperate here.

13. Oh my God. It's like Bob Geldof and live aid. Give us your fucking reviews. Give us your fucking reviews. Do you know what? I'm going to go as far to say, if it's a particularly nicely written review, maybe has historical fact jammed in. We'll read it out on the show. Isn't that nice? By the time you're hearing this, you could write the 1,000 for review. The 13. Do you ever, you know, when you're scrolling on Instagram, you see someone's got 99 like, shall I? Oh, go on then. That could be you.

And when you are lane to rest, when you're laying to rest in a lovely little cemetery, maybe on a hill in the countryside, your gravestone will say, Steve, 1981 to 2025, left the 1000th review. Well, and then died. Yeah, that's what...

I'll finish you off. Absolutely well. 1981, that's still a relatively young man. Horrible story. But it might be quite a fun death, skydiving, eaten by a sharp. It's quite dramatic. Or Steve. Yeah, I'm sorry, Steve, if you are listening.

The point is, if you do want to do that, it means the world of the show, and you're our favourite people as well, because you're the oh-what-time-full-timers. So you must be heard, show your love for the show in another way. And Steve, Tom will come to your funeral. He will, exactly. I'll sing at your funeral. Yes. The O-O-O-S-the-time theme tune.

He'll sing a eulogy. Will you sing at my funeral, Elle? Steve, of course. Scull lit up a room wherever he went Great pipes, great Welsh pipes All the Welsh can sink, aren't they? Never had the pleasure of meeting him, but everyone tells me he was great.

Such a musical people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Steve, Steve, what did he mean to you? He left the 1000's review. Oh, I love it. And everyone, Steve, Steve, what did he mean to you? He left the one thousand, and everyone's swaying, everyone's loving.

Steve, Steve, Steve, do you mean to you? You, he left a 1000 review. This could be you. That's the point. Anyway, that done. Welcome to O lot of Time. This is a subscriber episode, isn't it, Chris? What are we doing today?

It is a subscriber episode. Today, we are having a book review. Ian Kirschor, Hitler. A book I've always wanted to read. Have you really always wanted to read it? It's been on my list for about 15 years. Man, it's so good. It's actually, well, Ian Kirscher wrote a two-volume biography.

of Hitler. He was in two parts. And what he's done is he's combined it and is it bridged, is it bridged when it's basically he's abridged. Abridged. Yeah. I think isn't it? Is that what? I always thought a bridge meant shorter, I thought, isn't it? Yeah, complete and unabridged

is complete and it's fine as exactly as it was and abridged is, yeah, tweaked. That is one of the thickest books I've ever seen, Scal. And do you know what as well? Look at the tiny type. It's how many pages, Chris? What, I mean, I'm scrolled to about 1,000, 28, 24, something like that's coming around now.

But you know what? And that's just about his time in art college as well, isn't it? It's just all about that. The early stuff, as we'll get onto, is fascinating. But you know what? As I read it, there were several bits. I was like, this is mad. And for you, listener, I've been like bookmarking it and writing down my notes.

And so today we're just going to go through some of the things that I found particularly astonishing about the worst man who probably ever lived. Yeah. Do you think when Ian Kershaw goes to dinner parties and things that they're all chatting, they're talking about, you know,

have you seen adolescents? I've got around to watching here yet. And then he's like, God, did you know this thing about Hitler? And eventually someone's like, Ian, you know too much about Hitler. It's really weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know it's your job, Ian, but come on mate also Chris if you've taken the time to write down those little notes throughout the book surely they can take the time to leave a review another reason it's that easy to jot things down before we get into

6,000 facts about the world's most evil man shall we do a little bit of subscriber correspondent to kiss things off should we do that we love your emails are always fantastic and this one is no different This is from Robert Jones, who has sent an email entitled, Hypocrisy During Prohibition. Hello, gents. I recently heard episode 93 on cover-ups and specifically the part on prohibition. Now, I think it was me talked about Prohibition, if I remember rightly.

You mentioned that the White House had booze in it during all of the time Prohibition was in effect. In fact, it wasn't just the White House that was swimming in bootleg whiskey. Most politicians were able to get their hands on quality alcohol during that time, including politicians that voted for the measure in the first place. It's incredible, this isn't it? The utter hypocrisy of it. Businessmen, captain of industry, anyone with enough money could get anything they needed and didn't have to worry about going blind or dying from bathtub gym. Now, this is the more interesting thing in this email. On top of this, doctors could prescribe alcohol to patients for medical reasons. The doctor could use this loophole if they, in good faith, believe that the use of such liquor as medicine by such person is necessary and will afford relief to him for some known ailment. So for $3 in 1920, you could get a script from your doc and pay another $3 to $4 for your inverted commas medicine. I highly recommend the Ken Burns documentary on prohibition. It's a great watch. Thanks to all, Rob. Oh, you'll never guess. The dock's only gone and prescribed another medicinal madri.

Yeager bombs for the joints. Yeah. So you could go to the doctor during Prohibition and go, you know, my, I don't know, I've had a dry scout recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any chance of, uh, any chance of prescription. Six points, yes, and giddish. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. All these loopholes that are happening. I did not know that, that you could go and get prescription. I also didn't know that essentially people who, I assumed it was mainly politicians, but basically people in, it's basically anyone. with money could skip around these situations. Taylor's oldest time. The moonshine, exactly, and they can have booze from home.

But yeah, there you go. If you've got to go into the doctor, what ailment you're going with, which you think gives you the best chance of getting a booms prescription? What do you reckon? Anxiety I'm going with. Yes, the opposite. Insomnia. Yeah, that's it, yeah.

I'm not much of a laugh. I'm not much of a laugh at parties. I'm not vibing at health passes. Exactly. What about you, Scarl? What are you going with? What's your ailman? It's Champions League tomorrow and next week.

I've got free evening, Doc. Come on. I've got... I've just loosened me up. I've got stressed about West Hamler conference league. I've got a terrible case of it's Champions League next week. The misses is away. I've got both kids.

I want to treat yourself. What'd you say, Doc? So there you go. You can get a script with a regular alcohol given to you and it was on the doctor's order so it was fine. Thank you very much for that Rob. That's great history. If anyone else has any fantastic history they want to send to us, they can via the many, many ways that we'll listen. Here's now. All right, you horrible look, here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh what a time.com

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh, What a Time, Pod. Now, clear off. Okay, Hitler by Ian Kershaw. Can I begin with the quote on the front of the book? Which throughout, I thought, this is a strange quote to put on the front. The quote is from Jeremy Paxman. And the quote is, Okay.

I cannot imagine a better biography of this great tyrant emerging for a long while. I don't know. Is that just... Do you know what I mean? What is that? It's good to head you bets. I mean, it might be that a better one comes along. It's good.

It's going to be a while, it's going to be a while for there's a better one. But you, I know, you see sort of the quotes on books that are sold in airports for like beach reading. Loved it. I think, I think that I don't mind that from Paxman. No, don't mind it. Okay. All right. Well, let's dive in, let's dive into it.

Let me, let's quickly give a brief description of Adolf's upbringing. So he's got two parents, obviously, Alloy Hitler and Clara Pozel. They both played significant roles in Shaping Zone. Of course, they had the surname. But the surname is where it's going to be in. Alloy Hitler was born in 1837, but he actually changed his name. Originally, he had the surname Schicklegruber. He changed it to Hitler in 1876.

Adolf Hitler was nearly Adolf Schicklegruber. Wow. I think that's enough, that one thing is enough, to utterly alter the course of the time. 20th century because I just don't think you're going to get behind a guy called Adolf Schicklegruber. It's just not, it doesn't have the ring to it. It's why in bottom, I used to find it so funny that Eddie is called Eddie hit that. He hasn't changed his name.

There's something in the phone book as well, isn't there? There was like 30,000 Adolfs in the New York phone book before 1938. And then there was like two by like 1950. It really is a name that's gone out of fashion, isn't it, Adolf? He's done it. That and the little pencil moustache. There's a few things he's destroyed. They're definitely among them.

You're right, though. Shiglbrugger isn't quite as punchy, is it? No. It doesn't sort of have that same, you know. Heil Schiqlebrugger. Heil Schiplugler. Too, me, syllabus. Yeah. Okay.

He loved his mum. His mum loved him. Clara Pozel. She was born in 1860. Okay, I love my mum. And this is, she was originally Alois niece and also worked as a household servant for Alloy Hitler before they married in 1885. So a bit of a weird upbringing. But Clara was deeply religious and really nurturing.

And Adolf was her fourth child and she'd lost several other children to illness. So she really doted on him. And there's one thing that comes across in the book that Clara Hitler, dies of breast cancer when he's relatively young. And there's a deep suggestion that this played an important role in how Adolf was to develop. So here's a little bit from Ian Kershaw. Clara Hitler lay dying. The sharp deterioration in her condition brought Adolf back from Vienna to be told by Dr. Block towards the end of October that his mother's condition was hopeless. Deeply affected by the news, Adolf was more than dutiful. Both his sister Paula and Dr. Block later testified

to his devoted and indefatigable care for his dying mother. But despite Dr. Block's close medical attention, Clara's health worsened rapidly during the autumn. On 21st of December 1907, age 47, she passed away quietly. Though he had witnessed many deathbed scenes, recall Dr. Block, I have never seen anyone so prostrate with grief as Adolf Hitler. His mother's death was a dreadful blow. Hitler wrote in Mayn-Kamp, particularly for me.

He felt alone and bereft at her passing. He had lost the one person. for whom he had ever felt close affection and warmth. And this is something that Inquertial brings up later on. His mum was the only person he ever loved. Right. The mother. And to what extent that affected his whole worldview?

You get the sense that he was only ever invested in that one other human. And none of his other partners came close. Ava Braun later on. There was no one he really loved in his life. me. Izzy's never been thrilled about it, but she can't compete. And should you ever pass away, Ellis, God forbid.

Izzy will inevitably become a authoritarian dictator. A blurthirty dictator who invades who invades Poland. That's really interesting. So what age was he at this point? What age was he when his brother passed away? She died in...

1907. She was an adult, was he? Because he fought in the first He was born in 18, 89, so I guess, yeah, it was 19, doesn't it? So, yeah, about 17, 18. 18. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing he also loved himself. Oh, boy, it did as well. Let me get on to that. I mean, what a narcissist. The two things that struck me about Hitler, especially this youth, is he's an utter fantasist, like a total daydreamer. But the second thing is, he's incredibly lazy. So a lot of, and I didn't really had this impression of Hitler that I didn't have that before this book.

I just assumed maybe he was a workaholic. You don't get into a job unless you're a workaholic, but that is absolutely not the case with Hitler. So a lot of his youth comes from... So he said it could have been worse if he wasn't lazy. We got the lazy version of him. We were lucky he wasn't more driven. August Kupiszek is his friend growing up.

So they were friends in their teenage years in Linz and then Vienna. Born in 1888, Kupisik was like an inspiring musician. but he shared Hitler's love for the arts, opera and music. The two had met as teenagers and lynx, and they both love Wagner. And Kubitsch was like mild-mannered and reserved and contrasted sharply with Hitler's intensity and his domineering personality. And the other thing about Hitler, you have to bear in mind is like, he really wanted to be a great artist,

but he was not prepared to put in any of the work. He was convinced that he was going to be a great man in history, but because of his artistry. I knew Hitler was an artist, but he himself thought he was going to be one of the great artists of the 20th century. He really believed that.

And it's interesting in his life when things go wrong and then pushes back against that. So in 1908, Coupic and Hitler moved to Vienna. Kubiszek goes to study music and Hitler is determined to gain admission to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna.

And it's there they move in together. And I thought I'd just read a little bit of the kind of the obsession that Hitler had with getting into this Fine Arts Academy and being a great artist. It's such an unusual thing as a background point for this awful, just impossibly terrible humor, isn't it? That they wanted to go to art college. It's just not what you'd expect. Exactly.

If you had to trace the narrative of where you thought that man had come from, It wouldn't be, you were spankly to get to art college in Vienna. Like he was a narcissist. Yeah. Like I was reading an interview with Mike Phillips, the ex Welsh rugby player, who played for the British Lions. He's one of the most handsome people I've ever seen in my life.

An amazing rugby player. He's got every right to, like, look in the mirror and love himself. There's never been a picture of hit live, I've ever seen that's made me think, oh, God, he had a lot going for him. You know, what was it that made him think, yeah, I'm the one. Yeah.

I just don't understand. it is i mean we'll get i'll get on to i want to talk about hitler the kind of the image he created of himself and what's really interesting i found in this book is how he experimented with his own image and he basically did some modeling and tried some different things and he rehearsed speaking in front with getting pictures taken so he could see what he looked like he had this you mentioned his narcissism but the the extent to which he practiced and kind of tried to cult about this image is absolutely fascinating. But let's go to Vienna, 1908. What's interesting about Hitler is he tried to get into the Academy of Fine Arts and he didn't. But then he tells

Kubisik, oh, I've got into the Academy of Finance. Come join me in Vienna. The two of us can live there, a share of flat. Kubitschek gets into a music college, because he's actually quite a good musician. This is a bit from Kershaw. Kubitsch settled down into a regular pattern of music study. What Hitler was up to was less clear to his friend. He stayed in bed in the mornings, was missing when Kubiset came back from the Conservatoire at lunch times, hung around the grounds of Sean Brun Palace on fine afternoons, poured over books, fantasised over grandiose architectural and writing plans, and spent a good deal of time drawing until late into the night.

Gustal's puzzlement at how his friend could combine so much leisure time with studying at the Academy of Fine Arts was ended only after some considerable time. A show of irritation about Kubisek practicing his piano scales led to a full-scale row between the two friends about study timetables and ended in Hitler, finally admitting in fury, that he had been rejected by the academy. When Gustal asked him what then he was going to do, Hitler rounded on him,

what now, what now, are you starting to? What now? The truth was, Hitler had no idea where he was going or what he would do. He was drifting aimlessly. That's so interesting. It's fascinating. And again, this is the thing that the Hitler story, just chance things that happen in his life

that put him on this path. And there's so many things that happen. You're like, if that one thing is different, there is no Hitler. And I think if he gets into the Academy of Fine Arts, if he pursues this artist career, I doubt all this other stuff happens to him that in his life. And I doubt, again, that the course of the 20th century is as it was.

It's interesting as well with Hitler. Like I mentioned the obsession with opera and the obscenc. He's going to the theatre all the time, even to the extent where he's sometimes skipping meals, saving the money so he doesn't eat so that he can afford to go to see the opera with Kubitsk a lot of the time. Yet you wonder to what extent Hitler watching all these performances

later kind of the theatricality influenced him when he was creating these Nazi grand Nazi rallies and spectacles because he had such a fascination with performance and spectacle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The insanity, though, to move to a different city with a friend and claim you've been accepted onto a course and you have... The decisions there to go with that. It's mad, isn't it?

It just shows a complete inability to admit any failure. And face reality. Face reality, exactly. Those scenes are clearly there from a very early point, aren't there? And this is the story of his use. It is total, like, he's a... fantasist and so lazy. He sits around dreaming of stuff but makes no effort to actually get better at being an artist or, you know, he just wants to be great and he doesn't know how to do it.

So I mentioned just a second ago that his image is really interesting. There's a great bit in this book which talks about like how prudish he is, begins to touch on his sexuality, which even to this day, many historians are just fascinated by. But he is without a shadow of a doubt, like quite a prude. very conscious of his own imagery. There's this little passage here I want to read you about his prudishness. This is for Kirshir again. Hitler's prudishness was to a degree merely in line with middle class outward standards of morality in Vienna of his time. These standards have been challenged by the openly erotic art of Gustav Klimt and the literature of Arthur Schnitzler. But the solid bourgeoisie puritism prevailed,

at least as a thin veneer covering the seigneur side of a city teeming with vice and prostitution, where decency demanded that women were scarcely allowed even to show an ankle, Hitler's embarrassment and the rapidity with which he fled with his friend when a prospective landlady during the search for a room for Kubitsk let her silk dressing gown fall open to reveal that she was wearing nothing but a pair of knickers was understandable. But his prudishness went far beyond this. It amounted, according to Kubitsk's account, to a deep disgust and repugnance at sexual activity. Hitler avoided contact with women, meeting with

cold indifference during the visits to the opera, alleged attempts by young women, probably seeing him as something of an oddity to flirt with or tease him. He was repelled by homosexuality. He refrained from masturbation. Prostitution horrified but fascinated him. He associated it with venereal disease,

which petrified him. And this thing about like personal hygiene and his sexuality, the idea of it, like, it terrifies him. The other weird thing about Hitler and his like, self-images. He never, even like long into his life, he didn't want people to see him in, to this slightest extent, any kind of nudity. He didn't want people see him getting changed. He didn't want to be, he hardly ever went swimming because he didn't want to, he didn't want

people to see him swimming. But he also, we mentioned earlier. Would he wear one of those sort of Victorian diving suits? Whenever he went to the swimming pool, those huge ones, the copper one. He experimented with different dress. And there's a picture of Hitler. that we're in Leidenhosen, which I'll send you now. Right. Which he had bat. On a stack, too.

He experimented around these kind of traditional dresses. Yeah. He wanted to be seen a very certain prudish way. And anything that even slightly exposed himself. But surely that Leidenhosen would also reflect sort of wanting to be wearing sort of stuff, which is part of like a Germanic history that he liked. It's an idea of sort of traditional... Continuity.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There must be some kind of linked there. Yeah, he experimented with these different looks. You can tell he's a bit younger in some of these pictures. There's one picture. There's one picture in particular of Hitler in Leidenhausen. And feel free just to Google, Hitler Leidenhausen.

There's one I'm saying. Well, that's just absolutely incredible. Like, looking really stirred but absurd in shorts and long socks. Like a really annoyed League 2 manager. He looks like his mum has dressed him in an outfit he's annoyed to be in. You know, like an eight-year-old. What's weird is, it doesn't happen as much anymore, but a big part of British comedy in the 60s and 70s

was taking the piss out of Hitler. Because I suppose audiences, a large proportion would have had memories of the Second World War. Yeah. And so he was a figure of fun. He was very easy to poke fun at, actually. It is. I mean, you think about Freddie Star dressing like, like, it was absurd to the point of funny. But for some reason, it's not absurd anymore, isn't it? It's almost a bit more threatening these days.

So it's hard to joke about it in the way that people felt comfortable about it in the 80s, almost. It feels that there's been a change. Yeah, I think especially when you look at populist leaders in Europe and in other parts of the world, I think directly after the Second World War I'm reading post-war by Tony Jut at the moment I think there was a feeling in the 50s and 60s

because you had things like what became the EU you know the EEC and before that it was the European Steel and Coal community and you were trying to ensure that Germany could never do it again but also you were trying to ensure

that Europe's trade was interlinked and so that we couldn't go to war with you know, without, with each other because there've been two world wars in the space of sort of 40 years. So maybe, yeah, maybe people did feel safer to take the piss out of that kind of stuff. I don't know, but it was a big part

of British culture still was, like John Cleese, for instance. Yeah, look up all the time. Yeah. So I will just drill home again. One of the big learnings I got from this is just how lazy Hitler is. And he continued this long into his life. Like he would wake up late in the, like,

wake up at noon, spend a lot of his time watching films. The thing that, again, Kershaw, he drills his home again and again, is just throughout Hitler's life, particularly when he becomes leader of the Nazi party and the Fuhrer of Germany, he just spends his evening telling the same stories again and again, and people talk about hating being. Like a stand-up. The same routine every night and people talk about not wanting to hang out of them because it's so boring telling old stories again and again, watching films.

and people just wanting to escape and how claustrophobic it gets, especially when the war turns against Germany. Once again, that reflects that deep narcissism. There's absolutely no empathy or thought for the people who are listening to this drivel. In a small way, you're so right. In a small way in his company,

he's not interested in you. Yeah, absolutely. Is that the opposite of Lee Trundle? When you are with Lee Trundle, makes you feel like you are the scent of the universe. this. But the thing that Kershiel does so well, and you kind of forget it in the story of Hitler, is that for all his thoughts of which he is the worst human who ever lived,

he does have this incredible ability, which is public speaking. Kershiel gives so many accounts of people going, oh my God, just being enraptured by his ability to draw a crowd, to hold a crowd, to motivate a crowd. And you kind of forget that in this story, but I want to read a witness who saw him speaking. And maybe this is the point to talk about the fact that Hitler in Germany in the early 1920s, Germany is in economic chaos, political chaos. You've got the Treaty of Versailles after World War I, where Germany is being punished, effectively for having started it.

And the economy is crumbling. You've got the Weimar Republic, which is Germany's first democracy, is super fragile and it's also unpopular with pretty much everyone, whether you're a conservative, nationalist, former soldiers, everyone regards it as weak, illegitimate. You've got the far left and the far right extremist movements everywhere and they're basically battling. You're often violent clashes on the streets for who's going to take over the country.

But it's also worth bearing in mind. This is a thing I never really understood, which is that the communists, the far, the far, left come very close to taking over the country. In 1919, they actually take over the city of Munich. And so people had, if you had any kind of capitalist interest, if you had any property, if you had a stake, if you had money, you were scared of the communists taken over because they would take all that money or your property away and they would nationalize it. So there was a fit. The default of if you were rich was almost to go towards the right because at least you would have

your property protected. And it's in this hotbed of nationalist far-right activity that Hitler takes over and begins becoming a beer hall agitator. There's a very interesting point made in Beyond the Wall by Katya Hoyer about East Germany from 1949 to 1990. If you were German and you were in your late 40s by the time East Germany came into existence. You had lived under all the political systems.

And you had known nothing but chaos. And they'd flirted with the extreme left, extreme right, capitalism, all sorts of, you know, basically everything had been given a go. Two world wars, utter chaos. And so the fact that there weren't free elections and things in the 1950s in East Germany, a lot of East Germans were like, that's fine. Just let me go to work, look after my... kids. Yeah, yeah. And let me chill out in the evening because I am so sick. I'm so sick of politics.

Yeah. If I don't have to think about it, as long as things are working broadly, I'm absolutely fine with that. And people were just fatigued. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. Again, it's one of those things where it's the perfect alchemy, the perfect ingredients in this chemistry set that leads to everything that happened. Of course, Al, Al, we live through the Boris Johnson, Liz Traff. Theresa May succession. So shifting sand of that. Yeah.

Can someone be normal, please? Rishi. It just kept, couldn't stop, isn't it? Rishi. This is amazing. I chose it for Distant Pod. There's an amazing Jonathan P.S. clip where Rishie is watching Salampton.

I did this on Dissom Pod a couple weeks ago. Jonathan Piers says, Rishi Sunak, of course, relegated from office as Prime Minister in the last general election. It looks like his beloved Sampton. They're going to be relegated from the Prime. a red double.

Love Jonathan Beers. Lovely stuff. Lovely stuff. Okay, so I want to talk about Hitler's public speaking. I wanted to read someone who witnessed it. One of the people who witnessed it was Hans Frank. Hans Frank went on to become a war criminal, obviously, but he was the head of the general government in German-occupied Poland in the Second World War.

And Hans-Fran is great. It's so well-written this. Kershal writes, Hans-Frank's fate would be bound up for the next quarter of a century. with the man who was speaking. Okay, just so great wordsmith, Ian Kershiel. But this is Hans Frank's description of what he sees when Hitler's on the stand talking. I was so strongly impressed straight away.

It was totally different from what was otherwise to be heard in meetings. His method was completely clear and simple. He took the overwhelmingly dominant topic of the day, the Versailles diktat, and posed the question of all questions. What now, German people? What's the true situation?

What alone now is possible. He spoke for over two and a half hours, often interrupted by frenetic torrents of applause, and one could have listened to him for much, much longer. Everything came from the heart, and he struck a chord with all of us. When he finished, the applause would not die down. From this evening onwards, though not a party member,

I was convinced that if one man could do it, Hitler alone would be capable of mastering Germany's fate. Wow. And that is the gift, again, that puts him on this trajectory, without his ability to direct the rabble in such a powerful way, to provide the answers when no one had any. Again, the 20th century is just so different. Do what's crazy, though, is when you watch footage of him speaking,

it is haunting the effect it has on people. Yeah, absolutely. Thousands of people cheering him and, you know, then it's really, really chilling when you watch it back because he was an amazing communicator. Yeah. An awful, awful man who did horrific things, but he was an amazing communicator and he did have this influence. Genuinely, though, L.

So fantastic public speaker, as we've heard, would hone the same stories and happily say them over and over to his friends. Also, utter narcissism. If he'd been around at the time of Livey the Apollo, the... He has all the ingredients for being a top level. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd absolutely smash that first episode on Labor of the Apollo.

So I'm going to skip over the stuff we know. He grabs a hold of Germany. He becomes the Fuhrer. There's the Munich Agreement where he starts, he's got this expansionist foreign. policy. And Neville Chamberlain, he wants the Sudetenland, he wants parts of what is then Czechoslovakia, Neville Chamberlain does the deal, the Munich Agreement, and he's furious because it means he can't have his war. It's interesting, when he gets the Munich Agreement, the German people are

delighted because they've got peace. And interestingly, I think, he is seen as a hero of peace. But what Hitler realizes is that he wants war, he wants foreign expansion. Peace is not the answer. And he talks about how he needs to train the German people. And I think it's really interesting to get an insight to his mind about how he needs to do that. And his awareness that peace isn't the answer. He needs to train the German people. Here's a little, this is Kershaw.

This is from an address he gave to journalists and editors. Circumstances have compelled me to speak for decades almost solely of peace, he declared. It is natural that such a peace propaganda also has its duty. subdubius side. It can only too easily lead to the view of establishing itself in the minds of many people that the present regime is identical with the determination and will to preserve peace under all circumstances. That would not only lead to a wrong assessment of the aims of this system, but would also above all lead to the German nation instead of being forearmed in the face of events, being filled with a spirit which, as defeatism, in the long run, would take away

and must take away the successes of the present regime. It was necessary, therefore, to To transform the psychology of the German people, to make them see that some things could only be attained through force, and to represent foreign policy issues in such a way that the inner voice of the people itself slowly begins to cry out for the use of force. He knew to train the nation for war. And this is the, it's so cynical. It's so cynical. It's like the mark of the man. I'm going to have to read this book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is another thing that Kershaw does really well, and it's something I wasn't aware of, this idea that the rest of Europe, and especially the Munich Agreement and all the other powers were so scarred from the First World War. Yes, absolutely.

They could not believe that another person would want to go to war. Yeah, he thought it was an amazing thing, the First World War. Yeah. And also what he did realize was that a lot of young German men felt robbed that they hadn't had their war. because they were masculine ideals at the time and actually there were an awful lot of very disillusioned disenfranchised young German men

who wanted to join the army and go off and fight something because there was nothing at home anyway and their fathers had all fought in World War I and even though Germany had lost that war that there was a sort of glory to warfare and he was able to capitalise on that so obviously it's good I mean when it starts ramping up this book and you forget the amount of invobey

and military operations he undertakes is absolutely astonishing. But there's this one thing where there's this quote where he summarizes his philosophy. And this is, I think, the passage that may, there is no doubt he was an evil, cynical man. And this is the part where I think he comes closest to acknowledging that. He talks about using like propaganda as a pretext for war, however implausible. He summarizes his philosophy. This is Kershal. And this is quite Kersh, quoting Hitler.

The victor will not be asked afterwards whether he told the truth or not. When starting and waging a war, it is not right that matters, but victory. Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally. 80 million people must obtain what is their right. Their existence must be made secure. The stronger man is right. Wow.

Stuck! Stop! Well, today there's a scary relationship with the truth today. Look at Trump, look at social media, all the, it's a scary time to be alive where the truth is disposed of, facts are created to suit an aim and with no real concern for consequence or what that actually means or the ethics around that. So you can see that happening now and it will continue to happen. It's scary, but it's always all the more amplified now with the instruments through which falsity can be created. you know, AI, video, all these sort of things. We're living in a tickly scary time in relation to truth. And Trump obviously has no regard for it, really, doesn't,

his willingness to make statements, and then the week after, deny that he's made that statement, despite the fact it's film. And he contradicts himself all the time, and he changes his opinion. It's a scary old time, but it's interesting that, and it's completely right, that victory, you know, the, you know, the, well, is it, history is written by the victor, that's a phrase, isn't it, basically?

Yeah. So I mentioned one of the things about Hitler again is there's so many things that just happen, chance things that happen that allow him to basically create the conditions of the Second World War. The thing that struck me was the sheer amount of assassination attempts that only just fail. Most people are aware of the July 20th plot in 1944 where Cloufons Staffenberg placed the bomb in the Wolfslayer and someone moved the briefcase. the Hitler survive with minor injuries. But there was multiple assassination attempts that happened before that. There's Operation Spark where the German officers in 1943 tried to put a bomb on Hitler's plane, but the detonator failed. And then the Smolensk briefcase bomb when Colonel Rudolf von Gersdorf attempted to kill Hitler with a suicide bombing, but failed when Hitler left the room too quickly.

But there's one right at the start that I didn't know about, which is the Beer Hall bombing of 1939. So obviously that date is right at the very start of the Second World War. George Ellsner plants a bomb, a carpenter, plants a bomb in Munich's Berger Brukela, and it explodes minutes after Hitler left. This is from Kershaw. At 20 past 9, the pillar immediately behind the die, where Hitler had stood minutes earlier, and part of the roof directly above, were ripped apart by Elsner's bomb. Eight persons were killed in the blast, a further 63, injured, 16 of them seriously. Hitler had gone no more than 10 minutes before the bomb went off.

He attributed his salvation to the work of Providence, a sign that he was to fulfill the task destiny had laid out for him. In its headline on the 10th of November, the Volkish Beobacter called it the miraculous salvation of the Fuhrer. There was, in fact, nothing providential or miraculous about it. It was pure luck. Wow. 10 minutes!

And also these survived assassination attempts are probably good for the now. they're trying to push of them being almost godlike and... Yeah, it's like Trump surviving the assassination attempt during the election. Completely. It has a value.

That photo of him with his fist up shouting fight, fight, fight and blood dripping down his ear. There is something sadly very iconic about that photo. Because when you see it, you never forget it. Absolutely. And I think it was hugely important in his run as well. I think it was.

It really, you know. So he invades a lot of, of countries, this one bit. Of all the bits from the book that really stuck with me, this is one, because it's just a bit absurd. So one of his invasions, the early ones, when it really starts ramping up, is the invasion of Czechoslovakia. As the invasion of Czechoslovakia happens, this is how Hitler reacts.

And the invasion has been successful. Overjoyed, Hitler went in to see his two secretaries, Krista Schroeder and Gerda Darwinowska, who had been on duty that night. night. He walks in the room. So children, he burst out pointing to his cheeks. Each of you give me a kiss there and there. This is the happiest day of my life. What has been striven for in vain for centuries I have been fortunate enough to bring about. I have achieved the Union of Czechia and the Reich. Hasha has signed the agreement I will go down as the greatest German in history. Right. What a dick. Kiss my cheeks.

What, just the knob? Like, when you read that, watch I walk in the room and kiss my cheeks, like, loser. Yeah. That's so weird, isn't it? Imagine that, like a leader, going, well, kiss my cheeks. Yeah. It's interesting with Kershaw,

because obviously there's that brilliant book about his drug addictions called Blitzed. But Kershaw doesn't buy into the idea that a lot of this was done because he was on liquid cocaine and his, is Dr. Dr. Theodore Morell was kind of juicing him up

on all sorts. Kershaw doesn't necessarily buy into that. But there is an exit in the book where Hitler is drinking a gun oil, specifically Ballistol,

which was an old World War I rumored treatment for kind of health like a remedy. Wow. He'd been drinking gun oil, which became one of many powerful stimulants and opioids

that he would eventually become just a shot. Yeah. Addicted. It's just. It's quite a lot of health problems, didn't he, Hitler? Oh, yeah, yeah. There is a great

deal of consensus that he had quite severe Parkinson's by the end of his life. Right. There's actually footage of his hands shaking as he's walking into rooms. But the cocktail of drugs he was on by the end is, like his mood is basically constantly being regulated by his doctor

or like hourly. I don't know. Some people say that basically that was partly his doctor's way of making sure he remained close to Hitler and was an important part of the inner circle, this sort of like constant medication that he would be giving him and constantly know

that there was a, it was useful to him as to seem to remain an important figure to the furor basically. I can totally see that. And I think by the end of it as well, as the war becomes worse and worse for Germany, he's an addict without a shadow of a doubt. He needs this effectively to operate.

But if he's got a big meeting or something like that, they are juicing him up. Like, it's crazy. The one thing that really struck me, and this is, I mean, there's so many reasons why he's a terrible person. But one of the big reasons I think he's an absolute dick is that, so basically the war really turns. A lot of historians and Kirchua adds to this. The war turns for Nazi Germany when they lose the Battle of Stalingrad after the invasion of the Soviet Union. So they lose in Stalingrad.

This is 1943. And then as the war progresses from that point, the net is closing around the Nazis on a daily basis. just gets progressively worse and worse. In 1944, we have D-Day, so you've got the Western Front then, and the net is closing, right? But what Hitler does, as that net closes, is he disappears further and further away from public view. There's in 1940, when the war was going quite well after the invasion of France, he does nine major speeches, 1941 as the war against the Soviet Union begins, he does five speeches, 1942, we start having some setbacks, three speeches, 1943, two public speeches,

1941, one speech, 1945, the last year of his life, no speeches. Isn't that interesting? I mean, as a leader, you think, where are, you know, this is all your idea. You have led your country on this path of utter destruction, and you won't even emerge publicly to take any kind of responsibility for it. And this is one thing he does in the better,

He does not take any responsibility for anything that goes wrong. Yes, I, yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? What, that's a trait in a bad co-worker, isn't it? Like, if you work with this dude and things are going badly, and it's like it's his decisions, and he's not, it's not. But is he accepting it's going badly? Because, for instance, Berlin in the bunker, at that point, is it denial or what's his mindset at the end, for example?

Does he believe when he's in Berlin that this is absolutely over and screwed? or is he still telling himself false narrative that there's a chance? I mean, because my understanding is it pretty much towards the end, he was still trying to spin the belief this was going to be all right. Yeah, he believes a miracle will happen and save him. Yes. That is, I'm secure in saying that. I think, was it Frederick the Great?

There was someone he really looked up to that was about to lose a famous battle and out of nowhere they won it. And he always thought that was going to happen to him. And it's always interesting as well with a bunker because he doesn't admit publicly that he thinks Germany are going to lose the war until right at the very end. And there's that famous scene in Downfall

that's become a meme where he has a go at all the generals and then goes, the war is lost. And the general, everyone in that room is shocked. Like, oh my God, he's admitted it. Like, it turns out we are fucked. Yeah. Like that's quite shocking to people around him.

But yeah, to what extent? I mean, when he knew himself that the war was lost, I mean, everyone around. I mean, probably 1944 when Klaus von Staffenberg tries to assassinate him. I'd say a year in advance, they know they're done. They know they're done. Yeah. I can't recommend this book enough.

I'll end this book review with the final chapter, which is extinction. This is the final paragraph of the book. Don't want to ruin the ending, but here we are. So Hitler and Ava Braun go into the room to end their own lives. He says, Kershaw. After waiting 10 minutes or so, still without a sound from Hitler's room, Heinzlinger took the initiative. He took Borman with him.

and cautiously opened the door in the cramped study. Hitler and Ava Braun sat alongside each other on the small sofa. Ava Braun was slumped to Hitler's left. A strong whiff of bitter almonds, the distinctive smell of Prussic acid, drifted up from her body. Hitler's head drooped lifelessly. Blood dripped down from a bullet hole in his right temple. His 7.65 millimeter water pistol lay by his foot.

That is the end of Adolf Hitler. But I will give the final word to Norm MacDonald. the Canadian comedian who said, look, Hitler was a bad guy, but I prefer to think about Adolf Hitler as the guy who killed Adolf Hitler. Yes. Fantastic.

Oh, God, he was good. He was an amazing comic. Norm, just be clear, Norm MacDonald. Yeah, Norm MacDonald. It was good, yeah. Just be very, very clear with that point. That was fascinating, Chris. What a fantastic book.

I hardly recommend. read. It's well worth of reading. And Kersh's just a brilliant writer. And it's just a fat, it's such a deep biography of one of the worst people who ever lived. And it really gets into his mind and it's so well written.

Yeah, Ian Kershaw. As Jeremy Paxman says, there's not going to be a better biography of Hitler written in quite a long long while. Fantastic. Absolutely fascinating. So that is our subscriber episode on Hitler and the fantastic book

buying cultural. And can I just add, so that's, I've read a 1,000 page book and reviewed it. Ellis has read a 1,000 page book and reviewed it. Tom, pressure's on. Pressure. I have done one. I know, it wasn't 1,000 words, so was it? And I was only three chapters in, which was about the Royal Navy. But I think that was quite a good episode. That was a good one. No, I've done lots of research around it. That's bad. Actually really good. We've got lots of nice emails about it. So I will read a book. I'll read a book. I'll read a book.

Goodbye. The history of Spot the Dog. It will be fine from there. Absolutely fascinating, Chris. Thank you for that. If there's any books that you, the dear listeners, have read that you think might be good for us to check out and maybe review in future episodes do suggest, because we're always open to ideas. Any thousand page plus books, send them in Chris and Elle's directions.

Any more of a sort of pamphlety length? Send them my direction. They've got a lift-up. C.C. Tom. Yeah, exactly. Then shoot them my way. Also, as we said at the beginning, if you do have time to leave a five-star review,

it really means the world to the show. It helps spread the word. It's genuinely a very important thing. So if you want to do that, that would be fantastic. From bottom of my heart, that would mean a lot. We will see you soon for more history. Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you very much for listening and downloading and subscribing and, of course. Goodbye. See you soon. Bye. hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. If you want more bonus episodes, you know what to do. Head to patreon.com forward slash oh water time. Oh what a time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else.

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