Oh What A Time... - #108 Rules Based Order (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

This week we’re trawling through history to figure out how the international rules based order took shape. We’ve got The Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, the huge success that was The Concert of Europe plus the flurry of treaties, conferences, and international agreements, aimed at building a new, peaceful global order in the aftermath of WW2.And this week we’re trying to figure out whether Macha or Mate is the health innovation we’ve all been waiting for to achieve our fitness dreams. If you’ve got anything to add on that or anything else: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Alan Rarig was found dead in a parking lot in Oklahoma. He's partly decomposed. He'd been shot twice, once to the head. It was a baffling tragedy. You'd think his wife would be devastated. But a far more frightening set of circumstances

eventually came to light. She was either the black widow or bad luck. I don't know which. People began to wonder, who was Sandra Bridewell? These guys didn't really see her coming. This is the unbelievable story of a femme fatale with a trail of bodies in her wake and a lifetime of deception that has never been fully aired until now. If something ever happened to

me then they would know who did it. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Fatal Beauty, available now on the binge. Search for Fatal Beauty wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to ask what was life like really before evidence-based sort of health foods and health fads and I'm saying this because I've just had my first matcha tea and I remember first I remember reading about matcha tea the first time probably during the 2018 World Cup I'm gonna say because a lot of the footballers were eating it, drinking it,

especially the Argentinian team. They were all walking around drinking matcha tea. So I'd read about it. It's all classic laddie football chat. In the sports pages. Toxic masculinity. Exactly. Yeah.

But I remember thinking, well, if it's good enough for, you know, messy, then obviously it's going to be good enough for me. Yeah. And then I saw it in a cafe just now. I was like, yeah, I'm going to have that. Now I'm about 30 minutes in. I've got to be, I just did some kick-ups in the hall. Skill-wise I haven't improved.

I just did a couple of step-ups. They were, the step-overs, they were as clumsy as ever. Yeah. Um, I don't feel like any of the benefits have transferred themselves to my feet yet. But I'm feeling pretty, you know, I'm feeling pretty alert. Yeah. Maybe that's where it'll be. Maybe it'll be my decision making rather than my skills.

Do you feel you're part of something bigger than you now? A movement, a sporting movement? A matcha movement. Yeah, exactly. Matcha of the day, as they call it with football. Thank you very much. Matt, there's been a few kind of hyped different things down. Remember Quinoa, like five years ago? Everyone was going mad for Quinoa. Yeah, yeah. Because it's got protein in it, I think. Oh, is that what it was? My reaction, by the way, as you said, matcha, was genuine because I love matcha. It's my drink. This is the twattiest order in a

coffee shop I have. But it's got, it's got um, caffeine in it. Has it? That's news to me. I didn't know that. Okay. I haven't given up caffeine. So I have matcha latte with uh, it's about to get even more twatty, a dash agave, what a wanker. What's that then? Oh, I know. Agave is like a sweet natural syrup, I think. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could replace it with vanilla syrup,

that sort of thing, but agave is the one I want, it's sort of in the honey region. Because I think that footballers in La Liga and Serie A are like matcha. Okay. So I did think to myself, you know, if I was playing for Inter Milan, I'd probably be having this at the training ground. Have you, have you

ever had a matcha Kit Kat? No, no, I've seen them knocking around though. You have not lived. That can't have the same benefits. Oh, it's sensational. The old health Kit Kats. That's what they have half, at half time in Syria Syria at. It's not the oranges, it's matcha KitKats. It's what all the ultras are eating. That's why they're all so mad. So Ellis, I've got a question about this because I had no idea it was a health food or health drink. Are they having matcha latte, which I'm having, which is basically 98% milk, or is there a healthier way? How are they having it? I'm not doing it the right way, am I? Are we drinking? I'm only talking about the same one. It's spelt M-A-T-E.

Oh I have M-A-T-C-H-K. That's what I just had. But I'm reading from the TNT sports website. Marte has made its way to training rooms and touchlines across the footballing world, notably thanks to ambassadors such as Antoine Griezmann and Lionel Messi. The drink is absolutely essential in Argentina. Okay. It's country of origin. Mate.

Now, oh dear. I think it's different, Al. A quick Google. It says here, Mate, or Mate, we have no idea now, whether it's even pronounced that, is a traditional South American caffeine-rich infused herbal drink. I hope it's called Mate. Come on, mate, please, mate. Well, it's a perfect football name for a drink. I hope it's called mate. Come on mate, please mate. Well, it's a perfect football name for a drink, isn't it mate? It says it's also known as chimaro in Portuguese,

cimarron in Spanish and caia in Guarani. Let's see if we type in matcha, if it's a different thing, yes. Matcha is a green tea ground powder. They're different drinks. Oh, God! Which has rendered the first five minutes of chat of this completely pointless. But you know what? We're going to keep it in.

But at least you solved the mystery of why Ellis hasn't improved at football. I was going to say, no wonder my kick-ups didn't improve. None of the big players are drinking this. They're entirely different drinks. Matcha is a shade-grown, stone-ground green tea produced in Japan with a bright green colour and a rich vegetal flavour. Mate, or mate, I hope it's called mate, is a type of tea native to South America and it's popular in Argentina, Peru and Chile.

So there you go. Oh god. That's why I was slightly surprised because a matcha latte does not feel like a health drink when I have it. It's, you know, it's basically cream. Green cream with a bit of honey in it. And it feels weird to me that Messi would be drinking that. And that's really... Oh, really is he? And I was drinking it, I was chugging it like this is... I can't wait to play football on Thursday night. This is going to be fantastic. Oh no. I mean the benefits are sort of broadly similar. Match has got caffeine in it though, Tom.

Well there you are, I did not know that. But the amount it contains varies dramatically depending on the type of match you have. But the way I drink it, it's not a billion miles from custard. It is, for one of our better phrase, a custard cousin. It's a custard cousin. It's on the outskirts of custard. It has a thick creaminess, a sweetness. When you have it, do they whisk it with a sort of... they've got like a special whisk?

Yes, I think something happens. I've never really seen it. They turn their back and then... Not because they're so disgusted by my order, but they go to the machine. I've never actually seen what they're doing. Tom, they're pissing in it. But there's some splurting noises. I can tell you that much. And there seems to be some kind of injection of hot water at a point. Okay. That makes sense. But apart from that, I'm not entirely sure what's going on back there.

And I choose not to ask. Chris, you obviously have links with West Ham. What are the players drinking that we're not drinking? Surprisingly, I've seen a few Red Bulls knocking about. Yeah. Which I didn't necessarily think was the kind of thing a professional athlete would drink number one it's quite gassy well I asked yeah I asked a footballer once why players often chew gum on the pitch caffeine gum and it's caffeine gum I didn't realize yeah wow we should be chewing caffeine going podcasting. Get the amount of frantic it can get.

Apparently there's a real sort of phenomenon or loads of footballers are into chewing tobacco as well. That's become a massive thing that actually is generally true that FIFA is trying to basically stop them from doing. And it's become a thing that lots of football, especially in South America, chewing tobacco has become a really, That feels like such a weird thing in professional sports. Well, you know, I'm sure they were into it before the war. I can't wait for them to get into snuff like the old lads used to drink in pubs I used to work in in the early 2000s. The Stanley Matthews final, they were all smoking out. Even like Serie A in the 90 yeah. Even like, Serie A in the 90s, they would always cut to the manager, and he'd have like a cigar, or he'd be on his fifth cigarette in four minutes.

Smoking in the dugout. In the dugout. I love that. It's insane. Yeah, a lot of my favourite players in the 90s, like Julian Dix, would nip outside for a fag, like half-tight. Really? Stories like that I've heard, yeah.

Wow. Again, just not compatible with the life of a professional athlete. Well, the Tuesday Club, the Arsenal drinking set in the early 90s, they used to have eating competitions. Imagine being a professional athlete and going in eating competition because you've got a day off. They would be like, Tony Adams, right, who can eat 25 bags of crisps? And they'd all be doing. But again, least with match or or mate or yerba mate, this health drink that the Argentinian footballers drink, I'm fairly confident that the science behind it is good. Whereas years and years ago, you

could do something completely unrelated and it would get you over your cold and suddenly be like, right, that's what it is. I need to rub blu-tack between my fingers and that will actually get rid of typhoid. It's the bloody blu-tack is what it was. Before we move on to what this episode is about, I actually have a question for you, That's my thing forever now. It's the bloody blue tack is what it was. Before we move on to what this episode's about, I actually have a question for you, Chris. Julian Dix, famously angry player, do you think in some part that was to do with he was just desperate for more nicotine? So if he's had a fag at half time, you're getting to 60 minutes, he's getting the pangs,

he just basically wants another fag. Is that why he's so irritable? Shouldn't he just let him smoke on the pitch? Exactly. If he was handed a fag every 10 minutes, like you know when a marathon runner's handed water as they run past one of those tables, if he was given one of those every 10 minutes it might have chilled him out. Physio running on with the nicotine patch or a half-lipped fag. I'd love to see that. Feigning an injury.

Quick draw in a marble light. He's one of my favourite penalty takers ever. I know this is a history podcast and not a sports podcast, but when it was his turn to take a penalty, West Ham had awarded a penalty and he was their main penalty taker at the time, he would kick the ball like he hated it. And I saw one pen on Twitter or something that Julian did, he almost breaks the net. It is absolutely incredible. There is no finesse. There's, he's not, he's not trying to, uh, he's not trying to trick anyone.

He's just trying to kick that ball as, as hard, so it's faster than the speed of light. I can somehow drag this back into history. Rocky IV, Ivan Drago, right? I think it's Rocky IV, isn't it, Ivan Drago? The scenes of him training, where it's like the Soviet Union has a hyper sensitive sports laboratory and they're trying to grow the perfect athlete. A lot of digital clocks. Digital clocks. A lot of like LED lighting. A lot of like people with clipboards watching him on the treadmill.

And there's the punch machine like in a fairground. Oh yeah. I mean that is sport now, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it says a lot about the amateurishness of the 80s, that people treated with suspicion anyone who took sport quite professionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was always evil to really try at sport.

Yes. Whereas Julian Dick's having a fag at half time and then whacking a ball in and then just walking off. Apparently, Gazza, when he was at Rangers, obviously he has a relationship with drink, which is slightly problematic, but sometimes at half time, he would pop up to the chairman's office and have a quick swift half whatever, or a pint, and then come back down again and play on. That's when he was playing for Rangers.

And he was still then miles better than everyone else he was playing with. It's amazing, isn't it? Carlton Palmer, when he was playing for Sheffield Wednesday, told me the tunnel at Hillsborough was next to the executive lounge. And as the players were lining up to come out the tunnel he would dive into like the executive lounge, ask for a shot of whiskey, they'd have one and then run out onto the pitch and

people in this executive lounge were like, aren't you meant to be playing in two minutes? Wow, imagine how good it would have been if you'd been on the meat. Imagine if they'd been giving him a cup of meat instead of a shot of bells. Carlton Palmer, we'd have qualified for that World Cup. That's what would have happened. If only. If only. Right. Today's episode is, let's be honest, high brow, isn't it guys? Yes. It's a high brow topic.

It's my idea because I am brighter than Tom. That's right. Yeah, yeah. idea because I am brighter than Tom. That's right, yeah, yeah. And academically I stare down at Chris from a lofty perch and I laugh at Tom actually for being so simple. But Chris and I have more friends. More friends. We have more of a laugh. And your lives have more value.

So what is today's episode about, El, as it was your idea, explaining what today's episode is? Well, as someone who listens to a lot of different politics podcasts, and I'm sure that our listeners are in the same boat as me, it's become apparent that the rules-based international order we've had, certainly in the West since 1945, the end of the Second World War, is creaking, possibly coming to an end, because it's revolved around the UN, which obviously for decades

the US has been an enormous part of, absolutely critical to, and NATO of course, which the US is absolutely critical to, and without the US, those two things don't really work. And now we have a president who doesn't seem to give a shit. And so if you take away, you know, America and all, you know, the trillions they spend on defense, etc. suddenly, and look at the tariff thing that's happening at the moment as at the moment of recording, all of these things that have been the building blocks of Western politics seem to be collapsing around us. And I thought, oh, well, you know, we've, so we've had one rules-based international order. And obviously the UN was a new version of the

League of Nations, which failed prior to the Second World War. And I reckon I could do the rules-based international order post 1945. I think I could sort of blag that from my degree. You know, you start with things like the European Steel and Coal Community and Marsh Lane, all that kind of stuff. I think I could blag that, but I thought there must have been more at different points in history. So I asked Darrell, our fantastic historian, Dr. Darrell Leeworthy, and he said, yes, there were.

Would you like to do three topics on them? And I said, yes, they were. Would you like to do three topics on them? And I said, yes, but Tom may not be able to cope because he's such a simple man. So he's just done a nice drawing for me and I haven't described that drawer. What he's done with Tom is that he's given Tom a blank Easter egg and some pens and said, you can colour in that Easter egg any way you like actually. And all of the colours, it's all food colouring so it's all edible, you can eat your Easter egg at the end, you can even hide it and then we'll try and find it. So that's what we're going to do for Tom's part. It's just 30 minutes of the sound of me looking around a garden for an Easter egg. And what you're actually doing is you're finding it,

you're putting it in your basket, but there's a hole in the basket, so it's falling out, and then you're turning around and you can't find it, and your basket's empty again. So it's that for 30 minutes. Where is this bloody, where is this egg? So even though this might be potentially a little bit heavier than most of our topics,

we hope that there's gonna be a little bit of levity, our topics. We hope that there's going to be a little bit of levity and it's just going to be very interesting because it seems very, very current. Absolutely. So what are we talking about today? So on today's show, we are talking about the international rules-based order, which I have to say, huge fan of, love rules, love order while we're at it. I'll be talking about all the treaties, conferences and international agreements that aim to build a new peaceful global order after the First and Second World

War. I'm going to be talking about something called the Concert of Europe, which occurred basically from the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. It was an attempt to try a different system of international relations and it's amazing what it achieved and what it didn't achieve. And I think we're talking about the Treaty of Westphalia, so that's international relations going back to 1648. Before that I think we should do some correspondence. Absolutely. Now, this is a short one today, but it really made me laugh, okay? Chris,

do you want to describe what your point of view was the Oscars and the Emmys? I think this is something we talked about quite recently. Emmys, there are just loads of them and anyone who lives in Los Angeles seems to have won an Emmy at least five times over. So basically you're saying any Emmy should basically be discounted, is it anything of any worth. Too many of them. It's not worth the Uber to the venue to pick it up. Too many Emmys. Absolutely.

The Oscars do matter. And we joked about the idea that everyone's won an Emmy. And then we got a DM through our Instagram from a listener, Joby Newsome, who simply says, I didn't win, but I did get nominated for an Emmy Everywhere like rats in London in Los Angeles Everyone there's an air you never more than five foot from an Emmy in Los Angeles Exactly, we're Joe be new some a an Emmy nominated listener and is further proof Chris that you might be correct Everyone and anyone

has been nominated or won an Emmy. Well, even on the Wikipedia page, the Emmy Awards or Emmys are an extensive range of awards for artistic and technical merit for the television industry. A number of annual Emmy Awards ceremonies are held throughout the year. Yeah, there's not one Emmys. Oh wow, I didn't know that. There's a bunch of, I think I'm right in saying this. There are a range of Emmys.

There's like different Emmys. I'm actually on there now. Primetime Emmys, daytime Emmys, sports Emmys, children are family Emmys, engineering Emmys, international Emmys, news and documentary Emmys, regional Emmys. Primetime engineering Emmys, regional Emmys, and then the international Emmys.

I've got to ask, obviously I'm not great at admin and keeping on top of things. Have we won an Emmy? Here's a clue that Emmys, you know, they're giving out freely. I know about three or four people, genuinely do know three or four people personally who have been nominated or have won Emmys. I don't know anyone who's won an Oscar. I've never met anyone who's won an Oscar. I definitely don't know anyone who's won an Oscar. The first time I realised that everyone's got an Emmy, my mate James Longman, who moved to Los Angeles, I went to his office. He had about eight Emmys in there. I was like, wow. And then I went in the office next door, there's like 10 in there. And then I went in the green room, there's another 11 on display.

I was like, how many yimmies are out here? I don't think I've met anyone who's even been to the Oscars. Nope. I've met Stephen Merchant, he's been to the Oscars. Yes. I've actually written with Ricky Gervais on a show once. He came on and worked on a thing I worked on. I think he has hosted the Oscars and maybe got nominated for... well, he definitely hosted it. He certainly hosted the Golden Globes.

Yeah, yeah. That's the one. There you go. Okay. All right. We're edging closer. We're edging closer. Imagine if we won an Emmy. I'd still have it in the house. We would immediately change our tune. If we won an Emmy, we would suddenly be, the Emmy is the most important award ceremony in the entire world. Is there anyone listening who's involved with the Emmys?

Who could put a word in? Put a word in, for God's sake. Surely the standard of the engineering Emmys isn't going to be that high. I reckon if Geordiw edits this had a cup of mate, the editing would be so good, suddenly this would be an Emmy award-winning podcast. I imagine there probably is a

subcategory of Emmy, which is humorous historical podcast. It seems to me there's so many categories of Emmy that there's a good chance that's knocking around and we need to put ourselves forward for it. Do you think we've got 10 listeners with Emmys? That's an interesting question.

If so, if you've been nominated, you don't have to have one, but if you've been nominated for an Emmy, please contact us. I cannot stress this enough. By next week, I want to put the Emmy count out there. Okay. I'm just having a look. Okay, in 2011 the winner of the non-scripted entertainment Emmy at the International Emmys was a TV program in the UK called The World's Strictest Parents.

Love it. Great. We can surely beat that. I don't know what that is, but we've got a chance, haven't we? I would give that to Supernanny over World's Strictest Parents. Supernanny is great to watch with your kids because they become so nervous that you're going to call Supernanny. Yeah. I'm good, am I, Dad?

Well, that remains to be seen. The winner of the 2024 International Emmy for non-scripted entertainment is a show in Belgium called The Restaurant That Makes Mistakes. Great. Which, incidentally, I would watch. That does sound like the sort of thing I'd watch. Is it like the show that goes wrong or whatever? You know, the play that goes wrong? What's that called? Which is hugely successful here, West End show. The restaurant that makes mistakes in Belgium is... Would you like fries with mayonnaise?

No, actually yeah, go on then. Oh, sorry, I'll have to put some fries in. I put tomato sauce on it. Yeah, sorry. Would you like lager that like lager this 15% or 16%? 15%? Oh, sorry, I've given you the strong one. Sorry. It's a much softer version of Kitchen Nightmares. For people who can't quite stomach that Gordon Ramsay show.

No one swears. Exactly. It's just someone saying, oh, I didn't actually, I didn't order this. I think that started as that table there. Yeah, no worries. Yeah. And then a very, and then a very reasonable member of staff goes, sorry, sorry, we'll give us 10 minutes and we'll sort that.

I think this is Coke, not Diet Coke. Oh, God, yes, sorry. We'll take it. We'll take it. Yeah. Genuinely though, if you have been nominated for an Emmy, do get in contact. Let's get the Emmy count going. Also, if you know someone who's been to the Oscars, or you've been to the Oscars, email him with that as well,

because you know, a lot of them. Let's find out. Here's how you get in contact with this wonderful Emmy deserving show. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh what a time dot com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh what a time pod. Now clear off. So this episode is on the international rules based order. I'll be talking about all the different international agreements and attempts at peace that were made after the Second World War. I'm gonna be talking about the concert of Europe, a wonderful thing. And I'm gonna be talking about the Treaty of Westphalia.

Now, I was having a conversation at a football match with someone who works for the MoD and he he said, oh, I think of Putin as a tidal wave and China as climate change. I thought, oh, that's a fairly terrifying way of looking at things. And then I listened to a couple of different politics podcasts that talked about, you know, how things that we have relied on for decades might be crumbling before our very eyes. I thought, well, how long has this been going on for? Now, it is hard to imagine in the age of Putin and Trump

that a rules-based order for international relations in Europe is as old as it is, because obviously, I think most people know about the UN. Lots of our listeners know about the League of Nations, which failed, obviously, but it's actually almost 400 years old. So it's all to do with the Treaty of Westphalia, which was signed by a group of European countries in 1648, incredibly. Wow.

So the treaty was meant to usher in the so-called Westphalian system and it was a big major turning point in world affairs. So I'm going to tell you what it was and why they bothered. Now first things first, it's important to understand that the Treaty of Westphalia... It's not a great name for a treaty, is it? It doesn't sound like it's going to work out. I'd heard of it, but it's actually two different treaties signed in two separate cities in what is today Germany, Osnabruck and Münster in October 1648. So on paper, Westphalia was a peace treaty and it was signed to bring about the end of the Thirty Years War, a conflict which had raged since 1618.

And get this, cause the death at the very worst estimate of almost eight million Europeans or about one in every ten of the continent's population. Wow. That's the crazy thing with that period. They would just have wars that would last decades. Yeah. The 10 year war has always kind of fascinated me. Like, can you maintain that level of war for that long? It's tiring doing anything. The 100 years war. A 90 minute game of football drags on a bit sometimes. Yeah. You know, boredom setting in during a war. Trivial pursuit on Christmas Day can feel like forever.

You've got half an hour for me, at most. Now even the best estimate, or the least horrifying estimate runs to about four and a half million. Now Catholics were on one side, led by Austria, Protestants on the other, led by Sweden, albeit get this, with support from Catholic France because they had an animosity towards Austria. Lovely stuff. Right. And then Britain stood apart, although English, Scottish and Welsh people fought as mercenaries. Nice one lads.

There's a tough job isn't it? A paid mercenary in war. Yeah. That's a thing that you know. I think I'd work in a cafe. Yeah. For the exhausted troops coming back. Yeah, I think I'd probably get a job in a bookshop if it was that, you know, if I had options.

Now the direct consequences of the treaty were to guarantee Switzerland's independence, free trade along the Rhine, and freedom of conscience for citizens of the Holy Roman Empire. Because up to this point, whatever the religious creed of the rule of a particular state in the empire happened to be, well that was the faith that had to be followed by all. But no longer. Now people had a choice. Catholicism, Calvinism, or Lutheranism. But there were wider ramifications and these drew upon the idea of two philosophers, right. So first, Jean Baudin, a French man, he argued for the inviolability of sovereignty and for the significance of the state to be something separate from the monarch, right? Right. So that was his big idea. So the state is separate from the monarch.

That's a good idea for then, isn't it? Yeah, for then, absolutely. Yeah. And the second, Hugo Grotius, who was from the Netherlands, he advocated not only justifications for war that included self-defense and punishment for crimes, but also he was advocating principles of natural law, so morals and ethics and ones that were universal because they're just natural and inherent in nature and therefore sort of above you know the laws of any one state right. Now the result of this Interesting came together you had twin sets of ideas was the principle that every state, no matter how large or no matter how small, had the

right to self-determination and to sovereignty, and this right was equally attributed. It's actually quite progressive, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Considering 1648, these ideas, this is before I thought these ideas were widely recognized, right? Absolutely, yeah. So this is the big one, this is the classic one. More powerful neighbors don't have the right to interfere, even in context where humanitarian needs are apparent. So, you know, liberal interventionism, and this obviously, this was common and controversially practiced in the late 20th century

and the 21st centuries, that is a breach of the Westphalian principle. Right. So, you know, I think plenty of people would argue against that, but this was how it stood in 1648. Now, whether or not the Treaty of Westphalia actually ushered in the principle or not,

and most contemporary historians dispute that it did, at least in the sense argued by the old school textbooks on international relations, there was, nevertheless, and I found this really interesting, a recognised need in the 17th century to settle disputes that arose in Europe with different countries that had come to possess different brands of Christianity. Now I read a short history of Europe a few months ago, and what I found so incredible is that, you know, Catholicism and Protestantism are different branches of the same religion.

But actually they saw each other as worse than being irreligious or also being an atheist. Oh really? Yeah. You're not just a Catholic, you're Catholic mate. Yeah exactly, you're the wrong kind of bloody Christian and vice versa. I guess it's like supporting a football team isn't it? Like whether you're Spurs or Arsenal, they're both playing football.

Yes, this is a friend of mine who is a complete sports atheist. Finds it amazing. Sports agnostic. He's a sports agnostic. Finds it amazing. Sports agnostic. Finds it amazing. Oh yeah, he's a sports agnostic because he believes that sport exists. He doesn't... He just doesn't know. He doesn't dispute that Chris Appalus

has got a team. He finds it hilarious because he's like, football fans dress the same. It's just they support different clubs. And often they support different clubs in the same city and they hate each other the most. Yes. Yeah. And he just finds it so funny. But I suppose, you know, that's the human condition for you.

So the Reformation... And also with that, the complete lottery of where you grew up or what club was presented to you growing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is literally who you'll support. Absolutely. There's nothing more than that really. I look at South Wales and you've got people from Neath and Port Talbot, which is, you know, only a few miles from Swansea. And there are people in those towns that support Cardiff.

And they're like, yeah, I'm not going to support Swansea. It's six miles away. I fucking hate those guys. I support Cardiff, which is 40 miles away. They're much better. Okay. So the interesting point is with the football rivalry is that the people you almost hate the most are the ones most similar to you. 100%. You hate the football team nearest to you, they're often similar. Millwall and West Ham. Yeah.

Yeah, Catholics, Protestants. It's not a million, if you look at it coldly, it's not drastically different. Yeah. Well, isn't there an old philosophical idea that we hate most what we see in ourselves is what they say. That's the phrase. So maybe actually you dislike them because they remind you of yourself. Do you know what, Tom?

You hate yourself. You're not as thick as we suggested at the start of this episode. So the Reformation, which it ushered in Protestantism, which was not a single idea in any case, because you had Calvinism and Anglichered in Protestantism, which was not a single idea in any case because you had Calvinism and Anglicanism and Lutherism, divided most of Northern Europe, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, England and Scotland and Northern Germany from the rest of the Compton, which was generally Roman Catholic. And I always think, and if you have a strong opinion on this or if you think I'm wrong, by all means contact the show. I think the Catholic Protestant Northern European, Southern European split, other than churchgoing

practices, I think the biggest difference is in our different relationships with Lager. Like the Scandinavians and the Northern Germans. The English, the Welsh, the Scots, you know, and the Dutch have got very similar attitudes to lager, I think. Yeah. To say like... What about the Belgians though? They're out there. That's an attitude not shared by anyone in the world.

Unbelievably strong beer, isn't it, in Belgium? That's why that restaurant keeps making mistakes, Chris. They're all drinking super strong lager. Or actually, it's not even lager, it's sort of... drinking super strong lager. It's not even lager, it's darker than midnight. It's like thick, dark beer. Steve McLaughlin Fizzy seaweed. Chris McLaughlin That is the outlier. Will Barron Yeah, so Belgium annoyingly is the outlier.

Okay, damn. All right, so my system has flaws. Generally, you're a Roman Catholic, and I'd undermine the medieval idea that Europe was united under the religious authority of the Pope. So since Protestants didn't believe in that authority, let alone those of other faiths elsewhere in the world, not least Islam, which was the dominant faith of the Ottoman Empire, something else was now needed. So for convenience's sake really, this novelty was called the Westphalian system. So it matters therefore, it was the first proper attempt at forging an international treaty in the modern sense, i.e. one that respects the individual characteristics of the countries involved, it established the idea of sovereignty and international rule books. Again, much earlier than I'd realised, and as the basis of a rules-based order.

Absolutely. And for this reason, Westphalia's largely stood the test of time, although it has been challenged. Now, there have been subsequent peace treaties with pan-continental effects, such as the Treaty of Utrecht in 1515, which ended the War of the Spanish Succession, various trade treaties signed between Europeans

and the Ottoman Empire that built upon the idea of sovereignty and added another basic concept to the rules based order. That is the balance of power So that would have one major beneficiary and big champion Great Britain now after a bitter conflict which involved most European countries because we've been fighting for fucking centuries That's the thing the Europeans. Yeah, it It's like that short history of Europe I read. It is a mad continent, Europe. The thing that struck me, I went to the Battle of Waterloo, I went to the actual site a few years ago, and there was a museum there.

And I think there was a thing that, it was the longest unbroken period of peace in Europe was after the Battle of Waterloo. It was 1815 to 1915, I think I'm right in saying, which is mad, isn't it? The amount of conflict in Europe consistently. And to what extent is the Belgians fought for their strong lager? Yeah, yeah. And? Well, there's a lot of borders in Europe, aren't there? There's a lot of countries

meeting each other. It's a big sticking point, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Historically. Exactly. And generally things tend to kick off along borders. That seems to be one of the key determinants. You know what it's like on the lads' holiday?

You get there's a huge snake in queue at passport control. You start losing your mind and that is exacerbated by more borders. It's that, but with cannons and the blunderbuss. Yeah. So after a bitter conflict involving most European countries, the Second Treaty ensured that the thrones of France and Spain would not merge, something which neutralised

French territorial ambitions, well, at least before Napoleon came along. And that merger had been a serious anxiety among Europeans given the looming death of Louis XIV. So he died in September, 1715, with his ambition of a French empire in Europe unrealized. So it was the Treaty of Utrecht which gave control of Gibraltar to Britain,

much to Spain's longstanding annoyance. And that's in Britain's long period of dominance, not only in Europe, but eventually all over the world. So, you know, like the banker and monopoly, what Britain did was make sure that everyone else played by their rules. It just so happened that the rules were European in the first place.

That's so interesting. The main thing I'm amazed at is just quite how early that is. That's what I find so phenomenal. How do you do that? Was it 1647? Was that what it was? 1648. 48? You know, you'd have had some clever people think to themselves, we have been at war for as long longer than I can remember.

We should probably try and sort this. That's it for part one of the international rules based order but if you want part two right now plus loads of extra bonus episodes from Oh What A Time 2 every month there's a Hitler book review, Simon Sharma, Citizens loads of good stuff to be enjoyed if you want to enjoy that become an Oh What A Time full-timer. For all your options head to ohwhatatime.com where you can sign up via Wondery Plus or another slice. Head over there otherwise we'll see you tomorrow for part two. Bye! So Follow Oh What A Time on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

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