Oh What A Time... - #108 Rules Based Order (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week we’re trawling through history to figure out how the international rules based order took shape. We’ve got The Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, the huge success that was The Concert of Europe plus the flurry of treaties, conferences, and international agreements, aimed at building a new, peaceful global order in the aftermath of WW2.And this week we’re trying to figure out whether Macha or Mate is the health innovation we’ve all been waiting for to achieve our fitness dreams. If you’ve got anything to add on that or anything else: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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is, will it be the last? Hello and welcome to part two of the International Rules Based Order. Let's go on with the show. So today I'm going to talk to you about something called the Concert of Europe, which sounds like something that Gelbob would organise. It really does, yeah. The Concert of Europe, which sounds like something that Geldof would organise, doesn't it? Europe, Europe-ish. It really does, yeah. The Concert of Europe. Who would do that now? If you had to put on the Concert of Europe today at Wembley Stadium.

Oh, here's how the whole show's gonna work. Two cheesy European hosts, man and a woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forties, cracking bad jokes, introducing musical acts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, some bloke for some reason dresses a giant playing card, you don't know why, you don't know what it's a reference to. The female host is coming out with ever bigger hair. Every new Linka hair is about 20% bigger. Never referenced.

Yeah, yeah. Dancing dogs, jugglers, then hard house and too unlimited. Feel like you're in ecstasy for 10 minutes. And those ABBA holograms to headline. Stavros Flatley. Would go. Would buy tickets, would go. Well, I'm afraid to say this concert of Europe is not that concert of Europe. This concert of Europe came about in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. So that's way before Stavros Flatley was even a thing. A thing, exactly, a potential booking. So in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars,

the victorious European powers, who were led by, for a point, Great Britain. Yeah, Britain, resolved to try a different system of international relations. And so they organized regular conferences to sit down and resolve issues through diplomatic channels. Sounds good. So these conferences came to be known as the Congress System for the Concert of Europe. And that's what I'm going to talk to you about today. The first Congress was held in Vienna from November 1814 to June 1815, and it established that European powers would operate according to the balance of power, preventing any one country from getting too big for its boots, or any single

idea for that matter, and it also sorted out, crucially, the principle of collective responsibility, meaning that all members of the concert were tasked with maintaining peace and stability on the continent. Now, what I find interesting about this sort of stuff is the question of whether this is just an intellectual game for the people that are there, or that actually there's genuine intent behind it. Because I think sometimes when you read about this stuff from the past, you think, oh, these are just powerful, wealthy men gathering and liking the sound of their own voice and their philosophical ideals. And it doesn't really relate to any real world intention. Basically, they were podcasters. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, completely. So all of this, as you'll find, there'll be an answer

to that question. All of this was achieved through the enforcement of an anti-liberal wave of reaction. So I think it's worth saying initially some of the stuff that backed these ideas up wasn't great. Out went the democratic ideals of the French Revolution and the American Revolution and in came monarchy and you'll like this one, this is always a good one, a lack of civil rights. Yes please. Do you think there's a point if you're sat around a table and you're discussing the removal of civil rights

that you stop and think, wait a second, are we the bad guys? What is the situation there? There's one person thinking, I should put my hand up, really. I really should. I'm not sure at all. Don't know about this. I always find it fascinating from history,

do people know they're evil? Yeah. Do they really clock that this is a call? No. Well, I think what actually often happened is people had this idea of a goal. Yeah, I'm the greater good. Exactly. And therefore- End justifying the means, I should say.

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And I think that's the case when you read about a lot of dictators and horrific things, they always have this sort of like idea of what this place is going to become that is used to kind of justify the horror that happens during that. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that's a very human thing, isn't it, that the worst people definitely fall trap, fall prey to. Tom, that's twice in this episode you've impressed me with your intellect. Carry on. Thank you very much. Can I do the hat trick? No, no I can't. So, soon after, okay, in the autumn of 1818 a second congress took place, this time in the French town of Aille-la-Chapelle – they're meeting in quite nice places. It's not like Middlesbrough.

They met at Butlins-Bognorages. That's funny. I wish we had this congress then. I've actually got a place in the south of France. Exactly. We can meet there during the skiing season. Ski in, ski out. So, Eilish Appel, where attending five powers were Britain, Austria, France, Prussia and Russia, and they signed

a public declaration based on their ties of Christian brotherhood to uphold peace in Europe. And these powers met again in Trappau in 1820 and Ljubljana in 1821 and then Verona, once again a lovely place, in 1822. It's the kind of place where there's an awful lot of nice Airbnbs around there. Yeah, exactly. And they're booking a lot of them and they're going down, having a great time, drinking wine, chatting philosophy. The word Ljubljana for me has a sort of slightly triggering quality. It was the first tour of shows I ever did as a stand-up in Europe was in Slovenia and Slovakia.

I had literally an hour of material. That's what I had. And I did my hour show in Ljubljana, and it went brilliantly. So much so the guy who was hosting the show after I'd done my hour came on and said, that was brilliant, would we like some more? And I'm at the side of stage going, no, don't bring me on for more. He's going, no, do we want more? And I have to come out and I have literally nothing. Nothing in the locker, Al. Oh, God. So what did you do? I have a party trick in that I can sing Jingle Bells in Spanish.

Yes. I did that. In case of emergency, break glass. It really was. I literally had nothing. It's this theatre of people who've really enjoyed the last hour and I'm thinking, this is a lie. I'm living a lie. I've got nothing. Is it anyone's birthday? Happy birthday. What's your name? Who are you? Does anyone here remember the concert of Europe? Because there was a meeting here in Ljubljana

in 1821. So they met, they discussed these things, they went from lovely place to lovely place, they had a lovely time when they were doing it. Now, it's often thought that the Congress system or the concert of Europe failed in the 1820s as the European powers pulled apart. But there were actually some positive outcomes. This is pretty amazing stuff. At the Congress of St Petersburg in 1825, Britain and Russia settled the border between what is now Alaska, British Columbia and the Yukon.

And the Congress of London, this one really made me laugh, in 1830, led to the creation of Belgium, much for the annoyance of the Dutch who tried to invade the following year. The reason I find that funny is because the idea of just being in a meeting where you make Belgium. Yeah, it's quite funny. Coming home and your wife saying, how was your day love? And you say, it's good, I created Belgium. I forgot about that with Belgium.

I know that all countries are created, but it was literally sat down. They created it We created Belgium. They just came out of a meeting and at one point in the creation of Belgium They go, let's make the beer mentally strong. Yeah But there's there's lots of countries in sort of Africa in the Middle East where the the borders are just straight lines Yeah, because they were done often by British civil servants. Imagine that. Quite stressful actually. I had to get the ruler out, but I was done by ten plus nine. If I had to draw a border, and it was something of the expanse of Africa, I'm having a laugh.

I'm not going straight line. You're getting the styrograph out. Yeah, you want a bit of fun. Have a bit of fun with it. A bit jaggedy here, in and out zigzag for a bit. You want to make it memorable. Cock and ball somewhere. Just enjoy yourself. Now, as a fateful twist, though, Britain

was to be the guarantor of Belgium independence. And here's the big question for you boys. Why did that, that simple thing, have a huge implication for us many years later? First World War, wasn't it? We were contractually obliged to do something about it. Correct. It led to Britain entering the First World War after Germany invaded neutral Belgium in order to attack France. A violation of the Treaty of London. Okay. So we were obliged to join. However, the more that conflict arose in Europe, and the more Britain's imperial interests grew, and the more sort of consolidated states such as Italy and Germany emerged, the harder it became to maintain the collective principle that had underpinned this at the very beginning and the concert slowly fell apart.

Even if there were some successes along the way, an example being the Congress of Paris in 1856. Paris, they're still doing it aren't they? They literally can't stop themselves. The conference of INAPA. Even the smallest business can face big risks. Get a business insurance quote in minutes at zensurance.com slash podcast and receive a $20 gift card.

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slash wonder ECA. The Congress of Paris in 1856 brought to an end the Crimean War, so they did achieve some pretty impressive stuff. It's also worth saying that there were other treaties during this period which were similar to the Congress system, but not directly part of it. The Treaty of Valoraki? Valoraki, yeah, that was a big one, which added various international conventions. Famously, you'll know this one, this is a big one, the Geneva Convention, which was first signed in 1864. My favourite convention. It is expanded famously.

Expanded in 1906 and guaranteed protection of wounded soldiers and medical personnel in conflict zones. There was also the Hague Conventions, another two big ones, 1899 and 1907, which established the rules of war, as well as the treatment of prisoners of war, civilians not engaging in collective punishment, and the rules around chemical weapons. So very important stuff. But once again, this process of rulemaking also fell apart as it was unable to withstand the separation of the European powers into two major camps. Those were the Triple Alliance of Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, and also the dual Entente of Russia and France, into which Britain would be drawn to create the Triple Entente, with the Congress

system falling apart in that fateful summer of 1914. Now as a final point, there had kind of been warnings for years, warning signs that this would fall apart, especially in the lead up to World War I. The United States, for example, refused to ratify aspects of the Hague Convention, particularly the use of dum-dum bullets, which are bullets which explode and become bigger when they hit a body. Pretty horrific stuff. And also chemical weapons. And Britain refused to surrender its naval superiority amid direct competition with Germany. But I think it's worth saying, looking back at the history of international relations through the 19th century, it's kind of hard not to be impressed overall by the

sort of continued effort of the European powers to reach agreements based on treaty and convention, even though they didn't kind of agree and they had obvious points of direct conflict, and also the attempts to work together for peace rather than fighting and war, even if it couldn't prevent what was to come. There was also an absolute boon for the postcard industry. It was. The real beneficiaries, exactly. You know, I would argue the concert of Europe is possibly the most successful attempt ever to create a lasting peace in Europe, right?

Yeah. Nothing. If 1815 to like 1914, there's very little conflict. And that's, you could argue the concept of Europe is there for the best we've ever done. And was it all these top dogs just going around, going on lads holidays one after the other, the nice places. Which is why you feel we should return to those initial ideas of monarchy and a lack of civil rights? We've let them slip. Imagine that. But when you got your feet up by the pool, that suddenly feels like a really good idea.

I think we should bring back a monarchy actually. That's a good idea. And they're doing all that without budget airfares. Do you know what I mean? All those lads holidays. Quite jealous of anything. Legially. Lovely little boat there, kick back for a month, come back, you've created Belgium. You're probably properly relaxed when you turn up to the conference. You're glad to see another human probably. Right, thanks Tom. Thanks for telling us all about the concert of Europe and the 100 years of peace it gave us between 1815 and well, 99 years and 1914 because now the First World Wars just happened. The war to end all wars.

Horrific war. Great quote from Post War by Tony Jutt where he describes the First World War and I am paraphrasing so I apologize to any Jutt fans who might know this quote off by heart but something like, it solved nothing and affected everyone. That's good.

That's good. That's really, yeah, that's beautiful. The older I get, the more I think about the First World War. You know when you drive into a town you'd never been to before, I always see the war memorial, the First World War, of all the people who died in that village wherever it might be and you're like, bloody hell. I don't know, in a weird way it affects me more than any other war. You're like, it's just incredible the violence and the scale and futility of it. Do you think it would be nice if they also had memorials in these towns for the people who survived the first world war as a way of sort of balancing it out? That would be quite nice.

That one's making me feel a bit down. But if I look across there, all those people came out unscathed. That one's making me feel a bit down. But if I look across there, all those people came out unscathed. You've got those things though. You have them in the UK. I don't know if other countries have something similar. Aren't they called grateful villages? What are they? And it's villages where no one died in world war.

No way. There's very few of them. I'm gonna have to Google this, but... That's amazing. Thankful but... That's amazing. Thankful Villages. That's it. Also known as Blessed Villages, Pintrefi diolchgar in Welsh,

a settlement in England and Wales from which all their members of the armed forces survived World War I. So the term thankful village was popularized by the writer Arthur Me in the 1930s. So yeah, if you want a list of, God, there's very few bloody, oh, that's depressing, isn't it?

In Essex, Stretthold. I don't even know what that is. Right, yeah. Wales, Llanfihang y Lacraeddin in Ceredigion. Wow. Tafan Spite in Pembrokeshire. Christ, there are only 12 villages in all of France with no men lost from World War I.

Wow. This is incredible. So yeah. I did not know that, that's absolutely fascinating. Do you pop a memorial up if no one died? Do you do it like a celebratory monument? You end up with like memorial plaques. So this tablet is erected to the glory of God and in humble acknowledgement of his mercies in preserving the lives of the eleven men and two women residents of Taye who served in the Great War of 1914 to 1918, let everything that hath breath praise the Lord.

So I think people were just so stunned that no one had died. There were also, the 14 of those villages are considered, in England and Wales, are considered doubly thankful because they lost no service personnel during World War II. So, yeah. Do the double as a village. That's incredible! So for instance,

if you grew up in Dorset in Lancton Herring, or in Bradbourne in Derbyshire, amazingly, I mean, do you know what's a doubly thankful village in Gloucestershire? Upper Slaughter! That is absolutely extraordinary. Will Barron So do you say nobody died in World War I or World War II in upper slaughter? Will Barron In upper slaughter, yeah. Will Barron That's incredible. Will Barron In Gloucestershire.

Will Barron If things do spiral and we head towards World War III, I am going to, in a scramble, try and buy property in upper slaughter in the months ahead of conscription. Moving the family there. Will Barron The name of the village drives to the old English word Slaughterer, which means wetland. And yeah, so Upper Slaughter is one of a handful of the thankful villages. That's absolutely... It's a doubly thankful village, Upper Slaughter. Incredible.

Ellis, can I just say, that is a superb fact. Yeah, well done. It really is. I think that's one of your best moments on this podcast. Intellectually, you two are on fire this week. Do you know what? I really would love to go on a very niche episode of QI with that fact. I don't know what the letter would be. W.

But I would try and get it in. Before getting that ah ah, whatever it is, and he realised actually Wikipedia is slightly wrong and one person died. Thanks, Sandy. A trench foot. Yeah. Well, World War I ended, and after that, I mean, it's like the biggest hangover humanity's ever had.

Everyone's vowing never to drink again. They're going, we need treaties, conferences, international agreements that are going to pull the world together and create a brand new peaceful order. Never again. So some of these conferences and some of these treaties were ambitious. We had naive ones. Some were just completely ignored. But together they shaped the way the world thought about peace, not in this interwar

interwar period, but also beyond the Second World War and into the 20th century. So I'm going to take you through now the steps that were taken, beginning with immediately after World War I. So after the armistice in 1918, the Allies created the League of Nations. Yeah, big one. Not a great title, too wordy isn't it? You need UN, you need something more effective. It makes it sound like sort of thing like the President of Real Madrid would suggest, doesn't it? As a breakaway somewhat. It's a new UA for tournament that will never catch up. Well, it sounds like something that England fans find boring, but I will always defend, because it's a way for Wales to blood new players.

So the League of Nations was an international body designed to settle disputes peacefully and prevent future wars. It was formally established in 1920 as part of the Treaty of Versailles. Versailles, again, another nice place. I've only just, I've realized that I've only just opened my eyes to this world Tom. He's a swiz isn't he? At the centre of the league's creation was US President Woodrow Wilson, who envisioned it as the crown jewel of the New World Order. But in a classic twist, the US never joined, because the US Senate, which approved treaties, refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles. Many senators, particularly the so-called irreconcilables, feared that membership of

the league would drag the United States into foreign conflicts without congressional approval and the American public at the time were also broadly isolationist weary of foreign entanglements and skeptical of European politics. There's real parallels now aren't there really? As you look at the isolationist and which Trump is pushing. Yeah, the parallels will keep coming throughout this section. Alan Rearig was found dead in a parking lot in Oklahoma. He's partly decomposed.

He'd been shot twice, once to the head. It was a baffling tragedy. You'd think his wife would be devastated. But a far more frightening set of circumstances eventually came to light. She was either the black widow or bad luck. I don't know which. People began to wonder, who was Sandra Bridewell? These guys didn't really see her coming.

This is the unbelievable story of a femme fatale with a trail of bodies in her wake and a lifetime of deception that has never been fully aired until now. If something ever happened to me, then they would know who did it. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Fatal Beauty, available now on the binge. Search for Fatal Beauty wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. So without US membership, the League of Nations was effectively really weakened from the start,

and it remained the main forum for international diplomacy through the 1920s and 1930s. Another major attempt, the first ever attempt at arms control came a few years later in 1921 with the Washington Naval Conference. Washington, yeah, a good place. A good place to go to have a conference. I've heard it's a bit boring actually. I've had friends who've been there have gone, actually, once you've done the White House and those sort of things, it's just kind of quite a, I don't know, it's an office-y sort of place, if you know what I mean. It's not a place of joy. Will Barron Yeah, a friend of mine did gigs over there and he loved it the first time

because he did the White House and all that stuff and decided to go back. And then the second time I was like, yeah, I've done the White House now. It's quite crap. Yeah. So that's the first one I wouldn't get. The first conference I wouldn't attend. Do it on Zoom. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let me know when you're there.

I'm coming to next year's Venice conference, but I won't be making it to this one. That's a shame as well for a naval conference, he can hop on a boat and go anywhere. But they just settled on Washington in 1921 in the United States, it was the first international disarmament meeting. And the idea was they wanted to limit naval construction. The American president at the time was a guy called Warren G. Harding. Not too familiar with him, but he was a newspaper impresario with little real interest in governing,

was fond of making deals, and loved playing golf even though he was terrible at it. Oh, dear. Right, okay. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. The conference brought together nine nations, US, Britain, France, Italy, Japan, China,

Belgium, the Netherlands and Portugal, absent were Germany, who had been basically just completely gutted as a military power under the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviet Union were diplomatically isolated after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution and the ongoing Russian Civil War. The outcome of the conference was the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, also called the Five Power Treaty, and this placed limits for the first time on battleship tonnage for the US, UK, Japan, France and Italy and imposed a moratorium on new battleship construction for 10 years. Remember this happened in 1922. So the idea was to prevent a naval arms race,

particularly in the Pacific, where tensions between the US, Britain, and Japan were growing. And then you had extra treaties after this, the 1930 London Naval Treaty. Again, they learned their mistake from Washington. It's a boring place. Let's get back to London.

And then 1936, they had another naval treaty. And then there were also two Geneva Naval conferences in 1927 and 1932 But these didn't have binding agreements. So Washington London Geneva lovely places 1928 the Kellogg-Briand Pact So in 1928 another major peace initiative emerged the Kellogg-Briand Pact named after the US Secretary of State Frank B Kelloggogg, and French Foreign Minister Aristide Brianne. You can't attack a country where they eat crunchy nut cornflakes for breakfast.

Send our best man, Kellogg. In his red swimsuit, down by the pool. Where's he got those fresh strawberries from? This treaty is my favourite one. Where's he got those fresh strawberries from? This treaty is my favourite one because it's simple. It declared, and why didn't it take until 1920 to figure this out? It declared that war should never be used as an instrument of national policy. In other words, let's make war illegal.

Great. Great idea. Good policy. Very good policy. In other words, let's make war illegal. Great. Great idea. Good policy. Route one. Very good policy. Knock it up to the treaty big man. The pact was signed by over 60 countries, including major powers like the US, UK, France, Germany, Italy and Japan. But there was one catch for the treaty. They didn't quite figure this one out. No enforcement mechanism.

Right. Ah. Yeah. And several countries, including the United States, added reservations saying they could still use force for self-defence. It feels like you're watering it down a bit. It's losing a bit of its punch. In practice, it was more symbolic than effective. Within a few years, Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, Italy attacked Ethiopia in 1935, and Germany infamously began rearming and expanding under Hitler. The pact, however, had a long afterlife. Its principles were cited during the Nuremberg

trials and it later influenced ideas about international law and crimes of aggression. We're getting closer to the Second World War. I take you now to the World Disarmament Conference in 1932 back in Geneva, lovely old place, lovely bit of skiing, bit of Toblerone, cheese fondue. Buy a cuckoo clock and a Rolex. The World Disarmament Conference in Geneva in 1932 was the League of Nations biggest effort to reduce global military forces across the board. There were 60 nations that's aiming to reduce land, air and naval forces, trying to prevent another world war. But obviously it's 1932, terrible timing. The global economy is deep in the

Great Depression. Extremist movements have moved graining ground everywhere. Countries increasingly doubted whether disarmament was even in their national interest and Germany, still under the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, demanded either that all other countries disarm to its level or that Germany be allowed to rearm. The other powers refused and in 1933 Hitler, newly in power, withdrew Germany from both the conference and the League of Nations altogether. The conference continued till 1934 but never achieved its goals. As the British Foreign Office later put it, its failure would have incalculable consequences.

And of course it did. We had the Second World War, another absolutely awful war. And the Second World War showed in brutal clarity the limitations of the interwar peace system. But it created a new momentum for something far stronger. This time the US were like, right, actually, do you know what, we do have to get involved in this. So in 1945, the United Nations was established with the US as a founding member and key backer. And unlike the league, the

UN included mechanisms for enforcement, peacekeeping and security council action. And if I'm not mistaken, its headquarters are in New York, lovely place, great Irish bars, Broadway, Madison Square Garden, the entertainment, the Knicks. In 1944, the Bretton Woods Agreement laid the foundations of the post-war economic order. Countries agreed to peg their currencies to the US dollar, which itself was tied to gold, to promote stability and prevent competitive devaluations. This agreement led to the creation of the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, to help

countries in financial crisis and the World Bank to support reconstruction and development. The Brest and Wood system lasted until 1971 when Richard Nixon ended the convertibility of the dollar to gold, effectively floating global currencies. And in 1947, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, GATT, was signed by 23 countries committed to reducing trade barriers and promoting global commerce. It would later evolve into the World Trade Organization in 1955. Isn't that mad? 1947, we're like,

we need to bring down trade barriers. This is a haunting episode. There was also, even before this one, an earlier attempt to create something more ambitious. The International Trade Organization was proposed in 1948 under the Havana Charter and more than 50 countries signed on, but the U.S. Congress refused to ratifying it, fearing it would infringe on national sovereignty. So the International Trade Organization never came into being and therefore the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade took its place and filled the gap. So as I have explained, lots of efforts at peace, some of them ambitious, many of them ineffective, but not all of them

completely meaningless. They helped establish this idea that international cooperation could exist and that peace could more than just be the absence of war. It could be a structure with rules, institutions and agreements, and it's a legacy that continues to shape the world after 1945. Many of the systems and treaties still shape global politics today at the time of recording on the 9th of April 2025. It's interesting isn't it that philosophical discussion and idea of approaches to diplomacy are all well and good. The thing you can't get around are the two things of financial plummeting basically and nutters basically. That's it, isn't it really?

Yeah. A nutter as in some position of head of state or whatever it happens to be in the sort of melting pot of things just going wrong is that's the thing that you can't get around. How do you prevent the nutter? Exactly. How can you create an international treaty that is nutter proof? That's what you need exactly. If you can do that, you'll be a billionaire. There we go, that is the end of I think one of our most highbrow episodes ever. What we need to do is we need to choose the nicest lovely little

village in the Mediterranean. We've got all the top boffins over there and make a nutterproof treaty. That's what we've learned isn't it? It's you need a nice destination, get them all together and just relax. Yeah. Just relax. Yeah. First two days they got off and they could do what they want. They'd buy the pool. Yeah. Have a couple of glasses of wine at lunch. Great. You need some kind of plan that you know will tempt the nutter out of the country and into some kind of lockup. Along the lines of we've made a 40-foot gold statue of you. Do you want to come see it? You've mocked up some photoshopped images. It looks like it exists.

They turn up. No, it's a net. It's the net from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. The nut a net, the nut a net. I think we've done it. The nut a net. We've done it. There we go.

["The Nut a Net"] If you have any topic ideas or suggestions, do contact the show. Also, if you have any topic ideas or suggestions, do contact the show. Also, if you have any feature ideas, if heaven forfend any of us have said something that was wrong, you can always shame us publicly in Oh What a Shame, Corrections Corner, or we just love your correspondence in general. So always, always send us an email if you like on hello at owhatatime.com Also another shout out for a fantastic historian Mr. Darryl Leeworthy, Dr. Darryl Leeworthy

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will see you, where do you reckon, Vienna? What are the options for all the places? Yeah. New York. Rome, I think. I've always wanted to go into Rome. Absolutely. We'll see you in Rome next week in one of the beautiful town squares. Bye bye. Bye. So Follow Oh What A Time on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondry

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