Oh What A Time... - #109 Collapse (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week we’re taking a look at the moments in history when things went to pot. Come with us to see Louis Napoleon’s self-coup in mid-19th century France, the frequent dynastic collapses in China, plus: how the Ottoman Empire bit the dust.And why exactly did people look so old and knackered in the past; was everyone on a tough old paper round? Or something else? We don’t have the answers, but if you have theory, do send it on: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Road Comfort. Until June 15th, receive up to $60 on a prepaid MasterCard when you purchase Kumo Road Venture AT52 tyres. Find a Kumo TreadExperts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tyres to auto repair, we're always there at treadexperts.ca Hello, this is part two of Societal Collapse. Let's get on with the show. So today I am going to talk to you about the end of dynasties in China. Now, this is kind of fascinating. In China, the collapse of a dynasty is such

an accepted, inevitable fact of history that it has a name for it, and that name is Chao Dai Sun Wan, which means dynastic cycle. And whether you agree with the theory or not, it does reflect the country's desire to understand why all 13 major imperial dynasties eventually collapsed. Which I kind of, that's an amazing fact that, isn't it? Like you think eventually one of them would stick, but all 13 of the imperial dynasties collapsed. Yeah, it's gonna affect your mentality. Do you ever think, I often think, well, I look around and think, well, this society won't collapse. Yeah. We've nailed it. Well, I thought that about Man United.

Yeah, when Ferguson was at Man United, I thought, this is it now, forever. Man United will win the league every year for the rest of humanity. Until they end football, it's Man United will win the league every year for the rest of humanity. Until they end football, it's Man United. And then you were wrong, then Man City won everything. And then with Man City I was like, this is it, no? This is it. Completely. But 13, all 13 of these dynasties collapsed. And it's discussed to such an extent that the cycle is said to have

12 stages that these dynasties always pass through. This is what is discussed in Chinese culture. I'll take you through these stages. These are the stages that they believe every dynasty will pass through. One, a new ruler founds a new dynasty and gains the mandate from heaven, which is always a slightly worrying turn of phrase. Right, so that's a new podcast, three hosts who started off as friends. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And we've got a mandate from heaven, which that still exists.

That is how we view this. Yeah. Yours was like, you're on a hill, wasn't it? And then an angel appeared out and told you. And then you got turned into salt, I think. But we decided to podcast with you anyway. Number two, the country achieves new prosperity. There you are, we've gained listeners. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First ten EPs, it's going really well. The population increases. The move to Wondry Plus has been good.

Now, here's number four, and I think this next one is a classic hiccup with any sort of ruling power. Corruption is rife and the rot sets in. OK. Chris is paying us, but it's all going through his company and he never shows us any of the figures. Five. A natural disaster occurs. My microphone breaks. Yeah, and Chris is no longer answering his emails. Exactly. I haven't been paid since January, what's going on? Six. Famine occurs and the population rebels. That's number six. That

means we're hungry because we're not getting paid. I ignore your invoices. Yeah, yeah. Me and Tom are now podcasting just the two of us, but we haven't got access to any of the figures at all. We're now doing it for free. Number seven. the ruler, aka Chris Skull, loses the mandate of heaven. Yeah, that's gone as far as I'm concerned. Absolutely. Number eight, population declines because of the violence. That means the listeners are annoyed because we're constantly moaning about this issue on the show and they don't want to listen. They've all left to listen to the rest is history.

You can't blame them. Number nine- You mentioned violence. Does that imply that I'm getting you to podcast under duress for some period? Absolutely. My face pressed into the microphone. Number nine. China fragments into warring states. We launch three individual podcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me and Tom aren't speaking anymore. Absolutely. One state wins. That's Ellis because he already has a bigger podcasting audience.

Yeah, but because of the unique way the BBC is funded, I'm not allowed to mention my history podcast on it, so I'm just going to imply it all the time. Number 11, the victor starts a new empire. That's Chris. That's Chris Skull. There you are, Chris. He's got Dan Snow on the blower. Yeah, yeah.

And finally, the empire gains the mandate of heaven. The new empire gains the mandate. For Chris's new podcast, Oh, What a Historical Time with Dan Snow and Dominic Sandbrook. So this is the pattern that it was believed that all Chinese dynasties would pass through. And there are these sort of things that you see, it's definitely true in so many of these sort of ruling states, the corruption setting in, the warring, the competition, all this sort of stuff, you definitely recognise it as something that comes up with regularity, with new empires and new dynasties. And so on and so forth. This would continue on and on and on. This is the whole point

that every dynasty would take to that shape. It would end, a new dynasty would start, and it would go round and round and round. And this was what happened, basically, until October 1911, when the cycle abruptly ended. And the Queen dynasty, which is embodied in the last emperor, who was six-year-old Puyi, was overthrown by a combination of Republicans led by a man by the name of Sun Yat Sen. So there we are again. Once again, we have the really young leader, this time overthrown. It's a funny word to use about a six-year-old, isn't it? Overthrown.

Overthrown, yeah. I mean, I throw my son over my shoulder, like at soft play. Yeah. I would find the responsibility of being a local borough councillor, of being responsible for my local electoral ward overwhelming. And I'm 44.

The idea of being responsible for China at the age of six begs his belief. I don't care whatever period of history you're in or wherever you are in the world. It's going to feel strange if you're like an adult having to bow to a child. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, completely. Well, this is what happened for a brief period until he was overthrown. And then after that, the monarchy was abolished on the 12th of February 1912, and the former imperial prime minister Yuan Shikai was chosen to be the first formal president of the new Chinese Republic. He took office on the 10th of March, replacing Sun Yat-sen, who had been the interim president since the start of the year. But what do you then think happened three years

later? And I would describe this as the most classically depressing human urge and human thing that could happen. What do you think happened after all of this, the abandoning of everything, this new guy's come in, he's now the president, that's his title, what do you think happens three years later? Overthrown, murdered, assassinated. Do people decide that actually a six-year-old was a better president? President Yuan Shikai decided that actually he would quite like the title of emperor after all.

This always happens in revolutions, doesn't it? I've read this about the Bolsheviks and the Soviets. When they overthrew the Tsar, they just all moved into the same palaces. Like straight away, the first thing they do in every revolution. Also, I know the three of us are trying to bring up balanced, well-adjusted children. Can you imagine how the ego of your kid, if you bowed every time she walked into a room? And so on the 12th December 1915, after all of that, he declared himself just that, the Emperor, which is just unbelievable. I mean, come on, you've wrenched yourself in the system and you're straight back in

again. And so on the 1st of January 1916, a new Chinese empire began. We're off again, we're starting again. However, on the 1st of January 1916, a new Chinese empire began. We're off again. We're starting again. However, it did not work. The new emperor lacked wider support, and even his own sons fell into a bitter quarrel about who should get the title of heir. I'm going to say it, this family seemed like wankers. It's like the idea they've moved away, he immediately wants to be emperor, he makes himself emperor, and his sons are arguing about who becomes heir. Come on, this isn't about you. This is about the country.

Which meant after just 83 days on the throne, the emperor abdicated, restored the republic and continued in office with his old title of president, which I think feels a bit undignified to return to the title of president after all of that. But that's what happened. But this decision made matters worse. By now, China had reached the 0.9 on the dynastic cycle, which is that it was beginning to fragment into warring states. And on top of that, Yuan Shikai was dying. And indeed, he did die on the 6th of June 1916. And from this point onwards, there was a power struggle between the different would-be warlords, some who wanted to maintain the republic, others wanted to restore the monarchy, and others who dreamed of an entirely different system. And in fact, early on in this period of conflict, this new period of conflict in 1917, there was even a last attempt to restore the now 11-year-old

Puyi, who was incarcerated in the Forbidden City in Beijing as the Emperor. So he was chucked out when he was six because he wasn't ready. He's had five years off, five years of normality. They've got to 11, they've thought now's the time. Oh no, was he incarcerated? He was incarcerated in the Forbidden City in Beijing as Emperor. So he was, you know, living a life. It wasn't sort of like sh**. But... Oh, alright, okay. Still not ideal.

Not having that. I think age 11 though, I'd be strongly pushing to be allowed just to enjoy the summer holidays, wouldn't you? I'd be saying just don't let me. If there were Playstations knocking about then, like I would be locked me up all day at 11 years old. Great. Tomb Raider. Yeah. The old, right, if you do that that again I'm going to punish you by sending you to your room, what room my good stuff is. Fine. So this attempted coup was led by Zhang Xun, who was a general and a warlord who declared

himself to be the Imperial Prime Minister, and began on 1st July 1917 when Zhang Xun and a small entourage entered Beijing in the early hours of the morning. And over the next few days, as the legitimate government of the Republic caught its breath to respond, the monarchists issued various edicts to convince the population that they were in charge. But no one really believed Zhang and they didn't believe his attempts. It's basically only he believed in himself.

That's what happened. His army colleagues deserted him. Republican forces were able to conduct an aerial bombardment of the Forbidden City and within a fortnight it was all over. And as for the 11-year-old Puyi, he remained almost entirely unaware of what was being done in his name. He was removed only in November 1924 when his former imperial titles were stripped away, and he was made an ordinary citizen of the Republic. But as anyone who's seen the film The Last Emperor, have you seen The Last Emperor? Have you seen this film?

No. It's a fantastic film. If you've seen it, you will know that this was not the end of Puyi. As his personal dynastic cycle devolved into a further imperial role. He became the puppet emperor of Japanese Manchukuo, ruling the state from 1934 until 1945, when the Empire of Japan was defeated at the end of the Second World War. And his final act as emperor, so he did actually get to start to do some stuff, was to restore Manchuria to China. Oh. And the reason that he agreed to work with the Japanese in the first place, and this almost

makes me feel a bit sad for him, to be honest, was that they convinced him that they would work tirelessly to restore him to the Chinese throne, when in fact they had no intention whatsoever. As other members of the former imperial family had warned him, but Puyi would not listen to his family, and so one by one they returned to Beijing, all claiming ill health. And then after that, he shuts himself away in his palace in Manchuria, even refusing to turn on the radio. This is

quite a sort of sad end really. He's in a palace though. Yeah, admittedly. But it's an interesting twist in this. He didn't listen to the radio. He didn't want outside stuff basically, at least not before summer of 1944. And so for a long period, believe that Japan, not the United States, was winning the war in the Pacific. And even then when he turned the radio on, because the news was coming from Chinese and American sources, it took him months before he accepted the truth of what had happened. And as for the remainder of his life, citizen Pui, as he became known on the 16th of August, 1945, following his abdication, he lived for another 22 years,

dying in October, 1967, after China had become a communist country, after the Great Leap Forward, after the Cultural Revolution, and after he had become a gardener, which sounds like a much nicer way to spend your days. But it's amazing all the stuff that China's been through. And towards the end of his life, he reflected that he had never chosen to be the boy emperor of China. It was a role that came to

him as a mandate from heaven. There it is again, that phrase that we've heard time and time again. So that's basically what it is. This cycle, this dynastic cycle, this 12-step cycle that is this dynastic cycle this 12 step cycle that all Chinese dynasties were saying and believed to go through and then with this young Emperor died a death for a final time. Now, I'm going to talk about the Ottoman Empire, which I studied at A level. And the thing with the Ottoman Empire, of the many empires to collapse after the First World War, none has had more long-lasting consequences for the 21st century than the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Which in 1914, this is incredible, it stretched from European Turkey through Anatolia

into modern day Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. It was absolutely massive. Yeah. What a big empire. That is needlessly big. Well, what I always find fascinating with the Ottoman Empire. I studied it at school for my history level. You don't see very

many references to it and that's obviously that's partly the prism of our own very European-centric media I suppose. I heard a personal story of empires being too big. I recently went to Sol Campbell's house and I was like oh lovely house you got here Sol. He went it's too big and to be fair it was too big. So you know if you're running an empire I can see how that can happen. Lovely empire you got here. It's a nightmare honestly. You think you said it's fine but you know I think we've overstretched Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I can cope with Syria and Iraq, okay? But I never go into Lebanon or Israel.

Right, having joined Austria-Hungary and Germany during the war, the Ottoman Empire was a target for a carve-up of the successful allied powers, Britain and France. So they'd offered incentives to local populations to rebel against Ottoman rule, and now to make good on the promises made for those rebellions to happen. Now an added incentive, this is classic, came with the discovery of oil. Okay. Which the British, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.

Which the British government wanted to exploit as a way of reducing the effect of domestic coal strikes. This struck home for me partly as revenge for the South Wales miners' humiliation of the government in July 1915. So they were humiliated by the South Wales miners' humiliation of the government in July 1915. So they were humiliated by the South Wales miners in the 1915 miners' strike and they thought, right, well we need to be less reliant on coal. Let's get some oil in. Collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Ah, here we go. This could be very, very useful for us. So Britain and

France in the guise of Sykes-Picot, which was an agreement or a secret treaty between the UK and France, signed by Mark Sykes for the UK and Francois Georges Picot for France. They basically carved it up, right? Now, so they sat down, they drew their infamous straight lines on the map, and when you look at a map of that region, you think, it's sort of crazy that two blokes just weren't like yeah fine fine yeah and then we'll call that a country yeah just got the rulers out right so if you look at if you look on the map they're dividing the old Ottoman territory in the Levant into a French sphere of influence they've got Lebanon and Syria and a British one which is namely modern-day Israel,

Palestine, Iraq and Jordan that that obviously proved to be incredibly significant for the history of the world. But what about Turkey itself? Now in 1918, the Allies had occupied Constantinople, which wasn't yet known as Istanbul as part of the armistice agreement, but much to the outrage of Turkish nationalists who opposed a foreign military presence.

So a direct outcome of this occupation was the creation of the Turkish National Movement in Angra, and they pushed for independence and freedom, and they were led by Mustafa Kemal Pasha, aka Ataturk. Now the Allies, on the other hand, they threw their support by the new Ottoman Sultan or Padişah Mehmed VI, who had come to the throne in early July 1918, and he accepted whatever compromises were necessary to maintain his dynasty, even if it meant being a puppet. That's the kind of leader I would be. Just leave me in post, let me get on with it.

I don't want to lose any of my possessions. Give me a palace, fine, I'll be a puppet. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Now this brought him into direct conflict with the nationalists. So when't bother me in the slightest, right? Now this brought him into direct conflict with the nationalists. So when the allies, in this case, mainly British forces and British imperial forces

from India, attempted to round up Turkish nationalists in March 1920, they only partially succeeded. So 150 nationalist politicians were interned in Malta, but about 100 escaped east to Anatolia where they joined at the Turks rebels. So the allies coup attempt, it collapsed into a fast. So within a few days, the Sultan and his cabinet were almost all that was left of the Ottoman Empire. So this enormous empire.

Wow. It's covered millions of people. It's collapsed incredibly quickly. So on the 23rd of April, 1920, the nationalists... It's so weird the Ottoman Empire is collapsing in 1920. It just feels inherently like it should be 200 years earlier than that. Mason- Yes. So the part of the Ottoman Empire that I studied at A-level was Suleiman the Magnificent. So he was born in 1494 and died in 1566. And then Selim was his successor. So that was the part of the Ottoman Empire that I knew a little bit about. But yeah, still going until 1920s. Incredible, isn't it?

There's a comedian by the name of Naz Osmanullo who, I think he would have been like 14th in line to the Ottoman Empire. He used to have been serial about it. Yeah. Yeah. Had he been born about 100 years earlier, he would have been one of the wealthiest people in the entire world. Yes. But missed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a very, very funny bit.

Yes, I remember that. Now, it took two years of conflict for the nationalists were successful, but in the Ottoman, 1922, it's so recent. It's kind of hilarious how recent this is. The Allies signed the Treaty of Lausanne, finally agreeing not only to Turkish independence, but also to the abolition of the Ottoman Sultanate. The end of centuries of rule by the Ottoman dynasty on the 1st of November.

I mean, my grandparents were alive. I was just thinking, if it ended in 1922, there might be people still alive who were born in the Ottoman Empire. Yeah, yeah, just about. That's crazy, just about. Yeah, it's mad sick. Just about. Now a few weeks later on the 17th of November Mehmed VI boarded a British ship, HMS Malaya in Constantinople harbour, went into exile in Malta. Gotta be honest, sounds quite nice. Turn your phone off, put your feet down. Now there was one last twist to this tale of sort of dynastic collapse. Ottoman rulers were not only sultans but also

caliphs, that is rulers of the Islamic world. So they called themselves, referred to themselves as commander of the faithful. So this status had provided the Ottoman dynasty with religious legitimacy. So when their empires borders had stretched throughout North Africa, the Near East, the Balkans and Turkey itself, but the collapse and the carve up of the empire in the wake of the First World War had undermined that, that singularity. As had Mehmed's decision to go into exile in 1922. So he was not the final Ottoman caliph, however,

in his place the Grand National Assembly chose a cousin of his, Abdulmejid, who took office on the 19th of November, 1922. This time as caliph of the Muslims. And this new caliph struggled to claim universal acceptance, which obviously is the essence of a caliphate. So within a year, the Republic of Turkey had been declared. Six months later, Abdul Majid was forced from office and into exile in France. 1924 was the first time since the early seventh

century that there was no caliphate in existence. Whoa! What? Mad. That's incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great empire you've got there. Yeah, yeah. That's great, isn't it? That's top empire building. I just quickly googled something because I was intrigued as to what was happening in 19... So Charlie Chaplin was in films in the cinema in 1921. So the Ottoman Empire was still running. Charlie Chaplin could have gone on a press tour

of the Ottoman Empire. Yeah, exactly. It gives you some context. So this had obviously enormously profound consequences for the Islamic world because you had growing fractures between the various sects within Islam, notably Sunni and Shia. So multipolarity, which is the sort of, you know, the dictionary definition of it. So if you think of, say, Catholic, Roman, you know, Anglican, Canterbury, merged in the century since the end of the Ottoman Empire, but has been accelerated since the Iranian Revolution, established a Shia theocracy there in the 1970s. And that's very interesting. I read a book about the Iranian Revolution years and years ago.

It's a fascinating thing for what it did to, you know, Islam in that part of the world. But might it all have been put back together in the 1920s? Well Ataturk wasn't so sure. So after fighting against empires to create a democratic, modern secular republic in Turkey, the last thing he wanted was to institute a religious rival, especially one who claimed the allegiance of the entire Islamic world and not just one country. So Ataturk said it's better for individual communities of the faith to work together while retaining their independence and distinctive character. And there's a struggle to hold on to that idea still continuing. But yeah, the Ottoman Empire, I think it's crazy that in the main, we know less about it than we should.

Because I did one module on it for my History A level, but there are general references to the Roman Empire and the Greek Empire fairly regularly. You know, just in day-to-day life. But yeah, the Ottoman Empire, an amazing thing. I think it might be my Empire of the Summer as we head towards it. I think it might be the thing I read about the most. Yeah, that's a good show. Yeah, get bang into the Ottoman Empire. Yeah, it's your brat girl's summer. It's actually your Ottoman Empire summer. Make an album about it. I can't wait to log on for the next Oh What A Time recording wearing a fez.

Yeah and us saying that's cultural appropriation you can't do that. Yeah. You have to take it off we're filming this for clips for Instagram you have to take it off. And you saying don't you get it it's my Ottoman Empire summer. I'll be over this by September. I'm in my Ottoman Empire phase. I'll be over this by September. I'm in my Ottoman Empire phase. It's your phase isn't it? Not phase. Very good.

There you are, it'll work. Well that's it for this week, thank you so much for listening to societal collapse. If you've got episode ideas yourself, please do send them in. Hello at owhatatime.com. And also, are you a spy? Do you suspect a spy? Are you spy adjacent? Can you can you spill the beans on spies? What lies are you telling? What's your fake job that you tell everyone you do? And we'll keep it all anonymous.

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