Oh What A Time... - #110 Vaults (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 4, 2025

It’s time to take a look at the most secure places history has to offer, from Scrooge McDuck to Colonel Sanders - let’s look at Vaults! We’ll be off to Ancient Rome, we’ll examine where secret recipes are kept and, naturally, we’re off to Fort Knox. If Tom were a medieval King, he would almost certainly have been Tom the Unready. Not sure the rest of us have nicknames, but feel free to suggest them: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast in which the three of us, myself Chris Cole, Les James and Tom Crane, go on a historic journey through time and discover new things like all the kings before William the Conqueror, which is what I've been doing over lunch, going on Wikipedia, checking out Ethelred, about a million Ethelreds. Ethelred the Unready. People could like Ethelbum and Ethelrec. Ethelred the Unready was, I went through a very brief phase of referring to Tom as Tom the Unready. You did? About 20 years ago.

And it hurt. I think it's a great thing for a king. It makes him sound like he's been having a lie-in during a war. Yeah. I imagine him scrabbling around looking for his crown when someone important's coming to the castle. I've been absolutely fascinated because I grew up thinking that the king started with William the Conqueror, but then suddenly it just occurred to me, there were kings before him. So can I run you through, we've gone through Ethelred the Unready. I'm going to go through, we'll go back in time for predecessors and I'll tell you their nicknames and you tell me what you think they were like.

The predecessor of Ethelred the Unready, Edward the Martyr, what was he like? Okay, quite a good block I'm imagining. Yeah, that's what I'm imagining. No, no, no, don't you mind me. No, no, no, you do it. No, you go. No, honestly, don't you mind me, it's fine. Yeah, but it was a bit grating I think after a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, it's fine. Do you know what? I didn't want to go for a run anyway. It's fine, exactly. I wasn't drinking alcohol with this meal. You guys were, but it's fine. We'll split the bill.

It's fine. It's Christmas Eve. You realise you've forgotten the turkey gravy. Edward the Martyrs going, I'll go to the shop and you just sit down. You relax. Don't worry about me. I'll do it. Okay.

I like this guy. We've run out of hot water. I don't need a shower actually. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Before him you've got out of hot water. I don't need a shower actually, it's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Before him you've got Edgar, no nickname. Then Edwig, no nickname.

Then Edred the Younger. Hasn't started puberty, voice hasn't broken. Yeah. I'm imagining that's like a genuinely, maybe like an eight year old king, that sort of situation, you know, where someone, the father's been murdered on the battlefield and now the six year old son is king. Yes. It's that situation. And he's, you know.

Stickers for all. And then Ethelstan. Doesn't look like he's got a nickname though, Ethelstan. Oh, Ethelstan. Yeah, I know about him a little bit. So who was he? I don't know. He lived 1894 to 1939. 894, I think. 894, sorry, to 1939. The king of the Anglo-Saxons. To 1939. He's not 1100 years old at death.

Yeah. I mean, he's done well. Or he died after an hour. Aged about 45, yeah. So, yeah, 1894 to 1939. I nearly did it again. Can I just say, Chris, you absolutely nailed that part. Such clarity. Do you reckon there was as much excitement about the turn of the first millennium as there was the second millennium? Well there was a big

millennium fever. People thought it would be the end of the world when the first millennium. Really? Yeah. Like the millennium book. Yeah, yeah, that's one thing I learned today. Did they really? I did not know that. Yeah, when it turned, the clock turned around to 1000, they thought this is it. They all thought their abacuses would start going wrong. Yeah. Shit, my tapestry's gonna start to unravel. Oh God. They'd written all their banking of emotion on tapestries.

Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be so hard to centrally heat this big castle, this Motten Bailey castle, oh shit. Why do we have a globalised tapestry? Why do we link it all together? Now everyone's punished, yeah. Do you know who was king? And it was Ethelred the Unready who was king in 1000.

One thing I heard, I read, was that he was going, oh, no, the world is gonna end. Like he was like the chief panicker. Really? Yeah. I also love Edward the chief panicker. Really? Yeah. I also love Edward the Confessor as a nickname. That's so funny. That's good.

After a couple of drinks, it all comes out. Did you do it? Yes. Really? Yes. I mean, no. Sorry, sorry. Now, before we actually move on to some history,

the fact you used to call me Tom the Unready, is that what it was? Was that what your nickname was? There was something I wanted to show you which actually links into that a little bit and plays into the idea of who I think you think I am. It's not a sarcastic tapestry is it? No, this is so, I just, I only clocked this earlier that I've been doing this. You know when you sort of become aware of something you've been doing and you just haven't been thinking about how weird it is and then suddenly you're like, what's am I doing? I'm an adult. Okay. So I've currently...

Why are my feet in wellies of custard? I'm currently writing a sitcom pilot. From your bath of beans. From my bath of beans. To see if you can concentrate. Beans all over the keyboard. Yeah. With odd socks on.

Claire brings in more beans. And another laptop as yet another one breaks. Because of tomato failure. And Apple won't replace it. I have to pay for it because they can see the tomatoes in the motherboard. Now, I've been writing this pilot, which is quite a lot of responsibility and stress, and it's very exciting. I'm really enjoying it, but you know, there's a lot of pressure. I suppose it's quite a responsible thing to be doing, technically, I guess.

What, working? Would you like to see the pen that I've been using? I only realised I'd been using earlier. Okay, I'm going to hold this up to the camera. Oh, let me guess. We will put this on our Instagram. Isn't a really, really big, massive novelty pencil from a gift shop? No, it's going to be one of those pens

with a little jelly man with loads of little jelly spikes hanging off his head. I'd say it's worse than that. Okay, now- And that when you tip, it's a woman who takes all the calls. Yes, this is, we're getting warmer now. Now, when this is filmed in a couple of months, there is, I think there's about a cast of about 26 characters

So there's a lot of people in this who are being and lots of people employed on this work Okay, this is the pen I'm using to write this it come here. Okay. You ready? It's coming down now Is it the mouse from Ice Age or the weird squirrel thing? It's Scrat the rodent from Ice Age Ice Age or the weird squirrel thing? It's Scrat the rodent from Ice Age on the end of my pen. So that is what's being used by an adult to actually at work in a workplace essentially. Why? Why have you got Scrat? It's moments like this that we'll miss when AI takes over. AI can't replicate. I was not writing anything with a big novelty pen. I'm turning him towards whoever's speaking on my screen by the way. How have you got Sprut on your pen? I bought a bag of ten Sprat pens for a... For a big project.

My big project, yeah, yeah. I'm writing Ice Age 8. No, my son's birthday and I needed stuff to fill the party bag and I bought a lot of sprouts and they were selling them for 50p each in the pound shop which is half the going rate and yeah now I've got this but I've just realised early I'm using sprout to write this sitcom so they were up there I thought as I looked at that that plays into exactly what Ellis thinks I am yeah I need a proper pen and it's only the Parker pen yeah a fountain pen, Ennis. I need a Parker pen. Yeah, a fountain pen. Why aren't you writing it on a laptop? Well, I do my flow diagrams and my thoughts on paper.

Oh. Then I get in the bath. I crack open the high beans. Clear phrases in the beans. And yeah. Do you journal? I write notes on my phone in my note thing. No, I mean, what is the book on creativity that suggests journaling? Well, you know what, I wasn't going to suggest a journal. I was going to say that I think the best way of recording Tom's life would be in tapestry.

You could have the early days at university, smoking too much weed, stepping on a giant pizza. What else would you have? The fly shirt, you two driving to a gig, he's got his shirt out the windows collecting all the flies. Well, what other famous scenes? The artist's way. That's the book I'm thinking of by Julia Cameron, The Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity. I've not read it, but loads of my friends have read it, especially when they've got like sort of creative block. Yeah. Apparently, you're meant to sit down, and I am proud of phrasing a book I've not read,

so I apologise for any Julia Cameron fans if I get this right, but I think you're meant to write like a side and a half of just stream of consciousness thoughts, and you're sort of purging your subconscious straight away and it's meant to unlock creativity. I would kill to read Tom Crane's journals. Because if you think he's weird, if you think he's weird when he's awake, imagine what the dream what imagine what dream state crane is like. Journaling with a Spratt. A little bit hurt, hurtful about this, Ellis. It's at no point have I mentioned

that I've got writer's block. It was simply the fact I'm using a weird pen. No, no, no, no. Even if the issue must be in the heart of this, I'm ready to come up with an educated. Because you said like flow state, it reminded me of journaling, which I've never done myself.

I think that is supposed to be a good thing, apparently. Basically, you splurge, you push through, and then it afters. Basically, the idea is that if you keep writing, you'll then get to the gold. It won't initially be the gold. I think you could have done it first thing though in the morning.

The problem with that is the school run. Exactly. I should bite all my kids. Sorry. I'm trying to find a real creative me. I can't help you with your socks. Get yourself to school, I'm purging. Get your mother to get your socks on, I'm creatively purging.

Hahahaha. Locking the bathroom door and purging. I mean, obviously I could wake up half an hour early. Yeah. But I'm not going to do that to Purge. So the kids are suffering again. I'm happy with whatever me I've found currently. I don't need to find a real me. Oh, I'm terrified of the real me. Absolutely petrified.

I can't be bothered to get up half an hour early to find the real me. This me gets up at 7am and that's alright. The real me who gets up half an hour before I usually get up is tired and grumpy. I dread to think. So, there you are. I'm the man who writes with that pen. And I'll tell you what that pen will not bring. You would never write an Oscar nominated show with that pen, there you are, that I'm the man who writes with that pen. And I'll tell you what that pen will not bring. You would never write an Oscar nominated show with that pen, would you? You'd never write an Emmy nominated show with that pen.

Maybe an Emmy, as we've established that. Well, you know, you would, yeah, as we've discussed before, which is something that's come up on the show a number of times. In fact, before we get into the history today, we have three emails on that very subject. Would you like me to begin with today's correspondence? Yes, please. Now, Chris, quickly just explain our view on emmies, more to the point your view on emmies. They're handing out thousands every year and in Los Angeles in particular, you're never more than one metre from an emmy. Yes. They're rats. They're rats. The emails have come in on that point.

Email number one from Paul Jape. Title, Emmy. Afternoon gents. I don't have an Emmy, but I do have Emmy. Tomato, tomato. There you go. Thanks, Paul. There you are. Made me laugh. Thanks. Thank you, Paul. Yeah, nice. Similar theme here, James Dunn. Hello, well, what a time, Pod. I hear you wanted listeners to let you know if they have an international Emmy. I don't, but I did once state a Swedish girl called Emma. That's close enough. No.

Regards, Jim. However, the next email actually is on point. Okay. Good morning, says this email. I have fallen a few episodes behind and recently enjoyed the Oscars chat. Ellis will know all about the film Grand Slam. Do you know about this?

Yes, absolutely. Which is all improvised about a Welsh rugby trip to France. Do you want to explain what this film is, El? It's a great film, actually. Well, it was made in 77 or 78, and it follows a rugby club doing their sort of biannual trip to Paris to watch Wales play rugby against France in what was then known as the Five Nations, what is now the Six Nations,

and it's got real cult status in Wales. I mean it's a great snapshot of what those trips were like 45, almost 50 years ago, incredibly. Yeah it's a comedy film. And what is the direct link, Al, to our careers? There is a weird link there. The person who wrote it, Gwynlyn Parry, his daughter ran the gigs that Tom and I made our debuts at. Did our first ever stand-up gigs at. So Sian Parry, she used to run a comedy club in Cardiff and that's where Tom and I performed for the first time. Absolutely. Now, that is not what this email is about though. When I was a student at Aberystwyth, I was fortunate enough that the producer, John Heffin, came to do a free Q&A evening at my local.

He told the story about going to visit Hugh Griffith with the other writer to try and persuade him to join their project and how nervous they both were about meeting an Oscar winner. Now we've talked about on this show how we'll never meet an Oscar winner. You might meet an Emmy winner but it's unlikely to meet an Oscar winner. That is until they sat down when Hugh Griffith picked up the Oscar and used the arse of it to light a match for his cigarettes. and use the arse of it to light a match for his cigarette. No you can't, that's not gonna work. Unless he's attached some sort of coarse material to the bum of the Oscar. I'm simply reading the information, do not shoot the messenger.

It says here that they were no longer nervous. To cross stream to the episode I'm listening to now, I'll sign off on my bardic name, keep up the good work, Thomas T. Twitt. What does that mean, Al? How is it spelt? Thomas and then T-Y then T-W-T. Oh T-W-T or T-Tut. Little house like a T-Bach-Tut would be a little sort of one-bedroom sort of quaint like little cottage. So it's a bit like like if you're a Wendy house or something you'd'd call it a sort of a teabag tut.

How would you find out your bardic name? What's that? How would that, where would you find that? I always thought, yeah, it's like a cute little house, basically teabag tut, a small neat tidy house. Although I must admit with your bardic name, I always thought you chose it yourself, usually based on the area that you grew up in.

Did you have one? No, I actually won a creative writing competition when I was at school. We had to choose our own bardic names. And the one I chose was Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, son. And because it was all, have I said this before? So what they always do is when they're,

they announce the winner and then they, they read a kind of critique of the winners piece of work, but they always refer to the winner by their bardic name as a pseudonym. And then they say is, you know, T Thomas Tutte or T or whatever in, in the audience. And then you stand up and then everyone knows that it's you. Because obviously, you know, famous people are entering the set for, they don't want there to be any favoritism. So you're entering under Sudah Sudan,

which is your Bavarian name. And I just thought it was funny, but when they were reading the critique of my piece of creative writing, I had to keep saying, and it's a very humorous piece of tug-and-cheek writing by Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard

Richard Richard. It's good stuff. It's good fun that the family can enjoy exactly. Yeah yeah yeah. So there you are. So he's claiming here that Hugh Griffith used his Oscar to like a cigarette. A, do you think that's believable? And B, what do you think about the level of respect towards that incredible trophy? That is fantastic. He was in Ben Hur, Hugh Griffith. So he won Best Supporting Actor for Ben Hur. And yeah, he's in North Wales. Amazing eyebrows. Right, yeah.

Incredible eyebrows. And he really does sort of steal the show in. What, big eyebrows? In Grand Slam. Like massive, mad sort of Dennis Healy, Norman Lamont eyebrows. Quite risky for a smoker, isn't it? Big eyebrows. Who's careful about that?

Let's have a look. He nominated for a Tony. He won a BAFTA. He was a three-time Golden Globe nominee. No Emmy. No Emmy. Holy... Oh, poor sod.

Because he sounds like he's above them. Yeah, he sounds like he's above them. He's a bit of a wimp. He's a bit of a wimp. He's a bit of a wimp. He's a bit of a wimp. He's a bit of a wimp. He's a three time Golden Globe nominee. No Emmy. No. Oh, poor sod. It sounds like he's above him. Yeah.

Not going to be so stoop so low as to win one. Chris not convinced you can light a cigarette on the, or at least light a match on the arse of an Oscar. Can you strike a match from polished metal? Interesting question. Yeah. It has to be coarse, surely. Unless you've roughened that match.

Maybe you could create a textured metal by rubbing it against stone, which might give you the coarse material you need to match, possibly. He scratched the Oscar's bum to the extent he could light a match off it. I reckon he scratched his bum. Definitely. Because also, what a power move, Lighting a fan on an Oscar. Wow. One day. One day we'll achieve that. So thank you, that's Gareth Tomos to give his real name for emailing in. That is a lovely

little story which Chris doubts the ability of, but Ellis and I completely are behind. I'm all for it. Exactly. If you have anything you want to email the show in about, let's say historical relatives, let's say anything, are you an Oscar winner, an Emmy winner, any of the above, do get in contact. And here is how. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at earlwatertime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Earl Watertime pod. Now clear off.

So today on the show, we're chatting about vaults. I'll tell you very shortly about how the Romans stashed their cash. But what are you boys going to be talking about? I will be talking about the most classic vault of them all, I think, Fort Knox. Oh, great. I'm going to be talking about some of the most guarded secrets in the world of food and drink.

Oh, yeah. These little recipes that are locked away in vaults. It's fascinating actually. I was going to ask you both if you have a vault or a safe in your house, but I don't think that is fit for public consumption. Do you have a vast vault underneath your house where all your family secrets are buried? No, I occasionally, occasionally when I'm staying in a hotel, there'll be a little safe. Yes.

And I think if I put my passport, whatever, in there, occasionally when I'm staying in a hotel, there'll be a little safe. Yes. And I think if I put my passport or whatever in there, guaranteed that I will forget the code. And flying home is a huge problem. I am exactly the same. I have a four and a half million pound blood diamond, which I keep in my bedside table. But you know, it's underneath some papers in there, so if you broke in you wouldn't find it immediately. I've got a Fabergé egg, but I just keep it in an old rucksack.

Inside you at all times! And I've got the famous horse from the 1980s, Shergar, just down there buried at the bottom of my garden. How much is a Fabergé egg? Yeah. That's one expensive item I just simply don't understand. I think they're like 30,000, 40,000 pounds, aren't they? If not more.

I think that is an insane amount of money. Good grief. I'm the same as you though. I think I would not have the confidence I would remember the number to to any kind of safe, so no I haven't got one. Nor do I have anything probably of the value to keeping it anyway. I'm looking at one now that's on the market for 115 grand. Don't really see the appeal. There's one that's 49 and a half grand, there's one that's 61,920 quid. There's a couple, there's a 12-piece Fabergé egg collection with stands. And that's £173 on eBay.

OK. Yeah. I just… I don't get it. Why… Why are they so expensive? Egg-shaped ornaments. I don't think… They're made of gold and diamonds and stuff like that, isn't it? I don't think it's the egg shape that's giving it the value, though. I mean, I would prefer it if… Not it's made of gold and diamonds and stuff like that, isn't it? I don't think it's the egg shape that's giving it the value though. I think it's the-

I mean, I would prefer it- Lord is made of. Yeah. But yeah, if you are looking to get me anything this Christmas, I will take the 115,000 pounds of average egg. Don't let it trouble you that it might not be exactly what I'm looking for.

I will happily take it. You'll drop it straight into your bath of beans. That would be that. Exactly. No, Chris, to conclude, I do not have a safe, nor do I have anything worth putting in that safe. But I'm fascinated by vaults. I think this episode was my idea because I'm just fascinated by these sacred

spaces that contain enormous riches or vital information. So this is our episode on vaults. And we're going to begin by going back in time. We're going back to visit the Romans. Haven't been here for a while. Welcome to ancient Rome. Good to be back. Delighted. Still my favourite period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All my reading is based around East Germany, 49 to 89. I need to start reading some good books on ancient Rome, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Every time it crops up, it's always so interesting. Well let's talk about money and let's talk specifically about where did the Roman emperors

keep all their money? That's a good question. It's a great question isn't it? I would have no idea, yeah absolutely. Yeah and it's not as straightforward as you'd think. So if you google Roman vaults you'll mostly get articles about architecture, not about where Caesar stored his cash. And yet Rome was the capital of an empire that ran on tribute, taxes, lots of looting. So the big question, where did all the money go? The philosopher Seneca had a blunt take on it. Caesar disposes of everything. In other words, if you're wondering where the vault was, it was him. But we can trace the money and you just have to know where to look.

So let's begin. Roman finance. Now, it wasn't exactly subtle. There wasn't a central bank. No credit cards. But there were two main vaults. Two funds that propped up the entire imperial machine. The aerarium, the senatorial treasury and the fiscus, the imperial machine. The Aerarium, the Senatorial Treasury and the Fiscus, the Imperial Treasury.

The Fiscus obviously must have come from there, I assume that's where the language has come from. Ten points to Tom. That's correct. So when you think of a treasury… And lucky El with your no points. How does that feel? What does no point feel like El at this point? Wandering around ancient Rome with no points? How does that feel? What does no points feel like, Erlach? Wandering around ancient Rome with no points. You get 20 minutes in, I'm 10-nil down. Not a great start. When I think about any kind of treasury or storage facility for great wealth, I can't help but have my mind wander to Scrooge McDuck.

But have my mind wander to Scrooge McDuck. Yeah, I'm the same. Diving into a big pool of coins that is somehow viscous enough for him to swim through. Yeah, front crawling coins. It looks absolutely horrible. Very painful. Also, Beak first. Beak's going slamming into the coins. They can't be pushed back into his skull. He pushes his arms forward, doesn't he? Like into a point like divers. So that would be the issue. In my mind, the beak was probably on the arm, so he was just going straight in with the

beak. In ancient Rome, although there are vaults, it's not exactly like Scrooge McDuck's gold vault. These were financial ecosystems backed by systems of taxation, land seizures, forced inheritances and lots and lots of paperwork. And this is just obvious to me when you think about it. All these great states and even like modern society, it is run on basically big spreadsheets, lots of paperwork and the grabbing of wealth. It makes sense. This is why Rome was so great. If you annoyed

the state or you just died without playing your legal cards right, they would be able to take your stuff. This was baked into the Roman legal system. So if you're convicted of treason, say goodbye to your fortune. If you're forced into voluntary exile, same deal. Even regular citizens were nudged and sometimes shoved into leaving money to the state in their wills. One ancient citizen summed it up grimly, a man died recently and the treasury seized everything. His wife is left fighting to even get a fraction back. And that's because women couldn't inherit full estates. The most she could hope for was a pittance, maybe even a tenth of the value of the estate.

Wow, grief. Yeah, ancient Rome a tenth of the value of the estate. What a grief. Yeah, ancient Rome. That's why they were so rich. So there were two vaults of Rome, the Aerarium and the Fiscus. So what were these treasuries exactly? Let's begin with the Aerarium, which is an old school senatorial vault. It was based in the Temple of Saturn right on Rome's Capitoline Hill, still standing today although it's mostly in ruins, and the word itself comes from aes, meaning money, and arium, a place for,

so literally a place for the money. I'd come up with a different name, you know what I mean, like if you're a bank robber. Yeah, I quite like the simplicity of it though. Yeah, I quite like the fact it just, well you know, you know where you are with it. I reckon. If you were, say, at the Bank of England, the vaults of the Bank of England, and there was just millions of pounds worth of cash, surely you would become desensitised to it. Because if somebody, I don't know, if somebody turned up at my house and they had £10,000 in cash, I don't know, somebody turned up at my house and they had £10,000 in cash, like in sort of tenors. It would be amazing. Oh my god, he'd put it on the bed and he'd be jumping up and down and doing all the kind of stuff. Jumping up and down. Lay out on the bed. Lay out on the bed and start jumping up and down and raining, chucking it all about. I think the two things people do is either they make love on it

or they lie back on it. I've never seen someone jump up and down. I think that's one of the movies. That's based on a lie a kid told me is it when I was very young, when he said that he split open a mattress in his mum and dad's room and it was just full of money. So they just jumped him and his brother jumped up and down. There was like money raining from the ceiling. So I've always imagined

that's what I would do is when brought in a lot of cash. But surely you'd become, I reckon you'd become desensitized to it, wouldn't you? Being around that much money. Absolutely, yeah. If you're working in the mint, yeah. 100%. Interestingly, I heard a rumor that, remember David Batty, the old leader of Black Mode Player, that he was suspicious of banks, so he would always withdraw his earnings in cash and keep it under his floorboards. I heard it was under his bed.

Well, it could be both, couldn't it? That's what I was told, yeah. Which gave the image of his bed getting closer and closer to the ceiling as his career progressed. He was a ceiling fan as well, so it was real jeopardy as his career progressed. That's why he was such a grumpy player, he was getting no sleep. Why is he such an irritable central midfielder? Always snapping. Oh dear. So the Aerarium, which is the senatorial vault, this was the original treasury under the Republic

and it kept on chugging even after the various emperors took over. It handed taxes from the peaceful provinces, and it even doubled as a kind of legislative archive. So if you had a law, it had to be deposited within the aerarium, or technically, it didn't count. And then eventually, they had so many of these dusty scrolls built up that they created a separate building, the tabularium, which was built next door, and that housed even more of these legislative dusty old scrolls

that went in there. Then there was the fiscus, which means, actually it means basket in Latin, but obviously that's where the word fiscal comes from now. And this was the Emperor's personal treasure chest. So this is, this for me is the main Scrooge McDuck gold emporium. That's the Scrooge McDuck zone. This is Scrooge McDuck territory. There would be a point, I think, if you did do a Scrooge McDuck and you jumped into the swimming pool full of coins, it would feel like a good idea, then you'd hit it, you'd go start to go under, then you'd think, then the panic would start.

Yeah, I'm drowning in my own fortune. This was a bad idea. And your mouth is full of coins. Surely it's going to be so secure that there is one in one out. So they let you in, they close the vault behind you, and then you jump in and you injure yourself, you're just lying in a pile of gold in the dark. If you're working in the Bank of England or in the Royal Mint, it must be easy to steal money, surely. I think isn't it really hard?

No, but you can put a cup of tenner's in your back pocket or something, claim it's your own. Surely. Can't be that hard. Where I grew up in Essex is near where the M11 meets the M25, and one of the... And you never shut up about it. Is it a place?

What a such a weird claim to fame, it always brings it up. Follow me on this story. I'm near at the foot of the M11 is a place called Loughton, which near where I went to school. And there's the mint is there. And from that mint, the M11 starts there.

And you can't from Loughton go up the M11 out into the country, but you can go into London. But the only reason they don't let you do that is in case the mint was robbed. So that road doesn't allow people to escape into the country. You can only go into the city from London. That's a great fact. That was the rumour I always heard.

I don't know if that's true or not. We turned it around, didn't we? If anyone knows whether or not that is true, please let us know. Hello at ootatime.com. Do you know actually it would be very easy to drown in a pool full of coins because it's very hard to swim

against the currency. To swim against the... I maybe didn't hear it right. It's very hard to swim against the currency. As a standard, how would you deliver that? To booze. And then the promoter would refuse to pay me and I'd say, it's fair enough. Yeah, it's fair enough.

Thanks for the invite. Well, let's go back to the Scrooge McDuck fiscus, which means basket in Latin. So this is the emperor's personal treasure chest. It's filled with taxes from the more militarized provinces like Gaul, Spain, Syria, and Egypt. And it's swallowed up seized assets, tributes, and the occasional voluntary donation.

And this is the emperor's personal vault and he often treated it that way. So let's have an example. Augustus. So this whole dual treasury system really got formalized under Augustus in about 27 BC. So is this a vault containing money or containing records of your wealth? The aerarium is the kind of the legislature, the senators run that, the parliament, the senate, and then you've got the fiscus, which is just for the emperor's personal slash fund. This dual treasury system got formalized under Augustus in 27 BC, and the thinking was simple.

The senate would basically manage the calm provinces, and the emperor would be in control of the volatile ones, and this personal vault he's got full of cash that's used to fund the military to keep the volatile ones under control but obviously funding a military isn't cheap you've got soldier salaries weapon maintenance and you also need the grain doll to feed Rome's hungry poor and that's where the Fiscus came in so basically this is paying the the Emperor's vault the Fiscus is paying for So basically this is paying the Emperor's vault, the Fiskars, is paying for the Empire's muscles and the bread for its poor. Good system, isn't it? Fascinating, yeah,

absolutely, really is. So although these big vaults are filled with coins, it's not just that. They're also supported by a sprawling bureaucracy to take the money in. So you had census takers, including the one that sends Joseph and Mary back to Bethlehem in the Bible you had census takers, including the one that sends Joseph and Mary back to Bethlehem in the Bible. You've got tax collectors, finance ministers, Rome had its own kind of chief financial officers. And under Augustus the top money guy was a guy called A. Rationibus. And later the title shifted to something catchier, the fiscal procurator. I just can't imagine the fiscal procreator. That can't be, that can't be, I must have mispronounced that.

Doing the kind of job that you do for the Bank of England now where you're sort of walking in, you know, hot and bothered from the tube, you've got a coffee from Pret. What was it like in the Roman era? It's basically the same job because the financial procreator, he's managing Rome's budget, he's creating financial statements, he's tracking what's coming in and what's coming out. He's basically me on O What A Time with my spreadsheets. Are you meeting with people who are coming in because they want to set up a toga shop and they're looking for... What's happening there? They're looking for a loan to start... is that what you're doing?

Well like any government is like, oh this war is going to cost this much, we've made this much in taxes, this is how much we've got left over, yeah let's have the end of year party. They were good when it came to formalised institutions weren't they? The ancient Romans, they were good at that. This is what it takes to have any half-decent empire. You need really good administration. Pen pushers. Get them involved. A successful football club starts in Excel on the spreadsheets, doesn't it? Yeah.

And it's the same with empires. Interestingly, yes, so these folks are creating Rome's budget, creating yearly financial statements. They also kept tax rolls. And this is amazing. Some of these still survive today. These ancient spreadsheets basically recorded who, what, where and how much it was created by Roman taxation. Can I just say one little thing very briefly? Do you know what exile was called in ancient Rome? Forty. Do you know what Excel was called in ancient Rome? Forty. Is it illness? That's a good joke!

That is a good joke. It's more of a sort of written down joke that your stepdad would see at Christmas. And would you like to know why there was a pause before we delivering it, why Chris had moved on to something else? I had to quickly Google what the number was, what Excel was, in there. And it was forty. And I stand by it. So I go back to that comedy club where I got booed for the Swimming Against the Currency gag and I was saying, I think you're fine actually. Hang on, hang on, I've got another one, I've got another one.

It's going to be alright. Let me finish! Please! Sorry Chris, as you were. Well, yes, on these Roman tax rolls, every detail was logged, whether it's land tax, poll tax, and even obscure levies like a tax on pigeon houses or income earned by comedians. Yes, stand-up comedy was taxable in ancient Rome. Your gag, Tom.

Wow. You would be levied for that. Absolutely. And might I suggest at a very high rate. So the Fiscus belonged to the Emperor and some emperors like to get creative and let's take Hadrian for example. In 118 CE he announced a massive tax amnesty. Imagine this happening today, what I'm about to tell you that Hadrian did. So at 118 CE Hadrian wipes out 15 years worth of

unpaid taxes and was worth a staggering 900 million Sestersis. Wow. And in a PR masterstroke, he held a public burning of the tax records in Trajan's forum. Nice. How good is this? Imagine that. Imagine HMRC doing that. HMRC announced there's going to be a big bonfire.

Bring down your self-assessments to Hyde Park, follow the flames and just throw them all in there. 15 years up in smoke. It was less generosity and more kind of strategic bribery, but people absolutely loved it. The Senate erected a statue to Hadrian, thanking him for erasing the debt. And he even minted a coin showing soldiers carrying the tax documents into the flames.

Really? That's a great PR move. It really is. It's like the most easy way to get people onside, isn't it? It's the kind of thing Malcolm McLaren would have done when he was manager of the Sex Pistols. It's like one of those great sort of things that the great rock... The KLF. It's inverted KLF. Yeah, exactly. Slightly annoying for us, El, as... I don't know about you, Chris, but as self-employed people where you're technically paying your tax for the year ahead.

but as self-employed people where you're technically paying your tax for the year ahead. So that is my understanding, you technically are half for the year, it's like half the year ahead. So that's annoying, can I get that? I paid that last year. You're checking all your documents on the file. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I love it. Ah, yeah, that's incredible though. I love that. Yeah, incredible. Good on Haydn. So what were the Roman vaults?

They're not just stone rooms full of gold. They are the effective beating heart of the empire where taxes become armies and wheat became welfare and politics became performance art. And these vaults weren't just vaults, they were staffed ecosystems surveilled and often even weaponized. And they were both public and personal.

They paid for the empire and bought loyalty when it mattered most. Genuinely fascinating. I still think if I had to live at any point in history, it's up there with one of the ones I'd rather than know. No, I take now. Absolutely. Just for paracetamol. I know.

Medicine. Exactly. Absolutely. Just for paracetamol. Medicine. Exactly. I was thinking the other day, if you had to swap your life for that of a king, what would be the earliest you would swap? You could be a monarch, but how far back would your life now be equal or better or worse than that of a monarch? Well, there's a sort of geographical aspect in terms of my decision making as well. I think in terms of British history, I'm avoiding anything more than a hundred years ago.

I'm really like middle ages, dark ages, absolutely not. I think Queen Victoria probably had quite a nice life. Yeah, that would be fine. That would be fine. But I think I've got no interest in any ancient British history. That's not a time or a place I want to live. You don't want to be Tommy Unready. You just end up doing a lot of old fashioned posh stuff from you. Yeah. Like a lot of... Bat and ball. Hunting and that kind of stuff. But I've still got this idea of ancient Rome. You know, it's good food, it's good weather.

Oh, it's great wine. It's quite progressive relatively, although it did have some issues with... I mean, if you've ever seen Spartacus, it did have its issues. But you know, it feels like, you know, wine. I just, I think there's worse times to be alive, aren't there exactly? A non-stop Italian holiday, yes please. As long as you're not in the army, that's a key thing. I don't want to be in the Roman army, but I would like to be a senator or whatever.

That would be quite nice. So one day, if we do knock up want part two right now, you can become an Oh What A Time full-timer where you get two bonus episodes every month. We just reviewed Hitler by Ian Kershaw and Ellis has a brand new book review which was, remind me? It was Starzyland by Anna Funda, what a read. That's great as well. So if you want all those bonus episodes plus episodes early ad free all the parts together all that good stuff support the show become an Oh What A Time full-timer for all your options go to owhatatime.com. And excitingly Ellis's agent has just emailed us to give us a suggested venue for a live gig. It's actually happening.

Stonehenge! So if you possibly want to see us, Jeremy Bentham, live at Stonehenge, becoming a What Time Full Timer. Then we will be announcing more on that soon, genuinely. Exciting. See you soon. Bye! Bye! Follow Oh What A Time on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. And before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey

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