Oh What A Time... - #131 Alexander the Great (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

We explore the young prince’s elite education under Aristotle, featuring wild horses, epic poetry, and geography lessons that fuelled global conquest. Finally, we take a look at the puzzle of Alexander’s early life — where the myths end, the history begins, and the truth gets slippery.If you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before (and the entirety of the mini-series right now!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh, what a time early and ad-free. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. So this is part two of Alexander the Great, and let's get on with the show. So we've heard about Alexander's birth and his life in the massive house. that his parents built and how annoying that was I'm now going to tell you about his education as a child

which as a spoiler was far better than mine and I've now decided it's the only reason I haven't become one of the most powerful men in the world I think if I had Alexander's education I too would have achieved the things that he had

it's staggering I'd see it is well wait to you hear who his tutors were Alexander okay he's 20 when he became King of Macedon. That's 336 BC. And as you've mentioned earlier, El, when you're talking about

what you'll be talking about, telling the story of his life, and especially his childhood, is tricky as history is sort of riddled with myth, legend, that's often the way of these things. But there is one thing that we can know for sure, and that's that he had the typical education of a prince who would be king, which meant a grounding in the following subject. Now, these are the sort of subjects that any young royal would have been taught. I want to get your take on each of them, How are you feeling about this? Would you have done well of it as a primary school age child?

What are you thinking about each? Okay, so music, nice start, music. How are you feeling about that? That's nice. Love that. Well, I'm remembering, you know, my sister's piano teacher. Yes.

A lovely lady called Mrs. Dunn. Who did Alexander the Great Earth? Well, we'll come to that. Sir Paul McCarty. Yeah, exactly. A bit of horse riding, fancying that as primary school? Horse riding?

Yes. Yeah, well, I'm actually allergic to horses, But, yeah, in theory, yeah, absolutely. Okay, literature and poetry. Oh, yeah, yeah, a little bit of that. Drama and comedy. Comedy he did is a specialist subject. It was a thing he really focused on.

Isn't that great? I would have loved that. Yeah, that would have been great. That's sitcom writing and stuff like that and sort of satire. Philosophy. Now, here's the two that worry me, I think it's a primary school age child, hunting and combat were the two. That's the two that would worry me, I think.

The idea of being sword-fighting skills and the art of the kill. and you're not even 10. Do you know, I reckon it would have been like, you know when you're a little kid, really little kid, you start playing cricket with a tennis ball. Yeah. And it's a really good laugh. And then when you move up to an actual cricket ball,

it suddenly becomes a lot more serious. A lot more real. I reckon, yeah, yeah. Sword fighting with like a sort of quite crap wooden sword. It'd be like, yeah, I can do this. And then they're like, right, let's get the real swords up. They'd be like, oh, I'm not sure, actually. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

And there'd be like a stuffed mannequin of an enemy that you're getting to hit with a stick or something of that. That's quite fun. Like a pinata, essentially. Yeah, yeah. But as soon as someone's an actual rival with a sword comes out, things change. Now, these are the things he's taught. But that isn't the crucial thing. The crucial thing is who taught them.

So we know of three people who are involved in teaching Alexander. There was Leonardis. There was a man called Lee Simacus, who called himself Phoenix. And here's the big one, the crucial one, that shows you the quality. of teaching he was getting and really sets his schooling apart from mine, Aristotle. She was. This is one of the probably three facts I know about Alexander the Great, that his tutor was Aristotle. Yeah. That's mad, isn't it?

It really is. He didn't come cheap, as we'll find out. His parents had to pay through the nose for Aristotle. It's quite a choice from the point of view of the parents isn't to go for the world's most intelligent man as your son's tutor. Is there also a lot of pressure, do you think, if you're going in each day and you're Alexander and your teacher is Aristotle? I was shit at science in school. So if my mum and dad had said, okay, listen, we know you're

struggling, you've got your GCSEs coming up in six months. So we've got you Stephen Hawking to teach you. I'm like, oh yeah, but it's going to be... What it would really suggest to me, L, is that they think they need to properly pull out the stops if you're going to scrape a sea in science.

Yeah, yeah. They brought Stephen Hawking in. It doesn't I suggest they want the best of me. It suggests that they think we really need to do everything we can to salvage this. Is this a storyline? Is this a phantom memory? But it isn't in Bill and Ted's excellent adventure? Aren't they preparing for an exam and they go around history,

pulling like the experts in that subject matter? Yeah, yeah. So they get taught history. They go back and visit Napoleon and things. They're also desperate to learn guitar from Eddie Van Halen. It's a very, very funny. It is a great movie. So,

So Leonardois, the first guy, he's described by Plutarch, the writer ofographer, as a man of stern temperament and a king'sman of Olympias. He had the task of teaching Alexander how to fight, how to ride skills that would be essential for his life as a warrior. Had Alexander, it's worth saying, failed these subjects, then he could never have become a leader, never become king of the world. It was just not going to happen. And very early on, Alexander showed incredible skills in this area. No great surprise considering what he went on to do. Age just 12, for example, he tamed a wild horse that was considered untrainable,

which he named Bucifalus, and then took as his steed for almost the rest of his life until the horse was killed during a march through the Indus Valley in 326 BC. I mean, I was taken on a donkey ride when I was 12, and I fell off the donkey, and the donkey ran over my groin. And I had, for what of a...

better phrase, a blue groin for about a month after that. At that same age, Alexander is training an untrainable horse. And that's why you're called Tom the Week. Tom, they're not so great. How many times have I said this? You mustn't compare yourself to Alexander the Great Tom. Give me people I should be comparing myself too well then. What should be my... Eric Bristow. Frank Spencer? Capman lady. Okay, fine. The guy who plays the B on The Simpsons. I'll take that.

He's endearing. Okay. Next up, Lycemicus, on the other hand, was responsible for teaching Alexander how to read and write and to give him a grounding in the arts, poetry, music and so forth. So there you go, Elle. That's who taught him music. And once again, Alexander shows early talent there.

Age 10, he's sufficiently able at playing the Kithara, which is a type of liar, like a handheld harp, that he performed at a symposium for. at the Athenian ambassadors held at Phillips Royal Palace. So at the age of 12, 13, he's playing at royal gatherings for all these visiting kings and people who are coming to visit his father. He also recited speeches and poetry at similar occasions too. So he's already a high achiever. And then, as I say, in order to cement all of this, age 13, his education is finally passed to Aristotle, who according to Plutarch, was paid a noble and appropriate tuition fee. This relationship provided

Alexander with a sophisticated appreciation of literature, and as one later historian wrote, prided himself on knowing the whole of one poem by Homer, the Iliad, and much of the Odyssey, likewise. Like many a young prince of classical times, Alexander took Achilles to be his hero. So he learns about literature, he learns about storytelling, philosophy, science, all these things from Aristotle. The world's cleverest cloak. Exactly. And it really rubbed off on him. I love this fact. It completely blew my mind. When on campaigns, when Alexander was off on military campaign later in life, he carried a specially made copy of the Iliad, which was his bedside reading. Imagine being that chilled about going into battle, you're taking a book to read.

Wow. I pack a book for like a family holiday and I think, this is quite, this is busy, stressful, I'm not, I'm not going to get to that. He's going off. He's taking, he's invading others. countries and other... That is unbelievable. Kingdoms and he's taking reading. Like he's going Tenerife for half term. Exactly, yeah. The most astonishing bringing a book thing I've seen this year is when my wife and I went to Glastonbury,

she brought Ivo Graham's book. I was like... For him to sign? No, to read, just to read. I was like, when do you think you're reading that? Also, if you were... Say you'd been wounded in battle and you knew you were going to die

and then you saw the general reading a book in bed I think justifiably think that bastard's not taking this very seriously so true he's reading Iville Graham's book come on me I've been stabbed in the chest here yeah absolutely

I've got five swords in my back can you stop reading partridge or whatever. Yeah, that's incredible. Also, if at the point you're packing your suitcase for war and you still have a bit of space left, just pack another sword.

Don't stick a book in that spare space. Something you'll definitely need. Pack another weapon, yeah, exactly, or some plasters. If he's reading military briefings or whatever, I could accept that. But like bedtime reading. Oh, well, it's time going to turn in. Does anyone see my copy of?

of a graphic but do you think if you look at your leader and he's so relaxed he's reading a book don't you think this guy knows what he's doing this guy I've got confidence

or this guy doesn't know what the fuck he's doing yeah how to flee would be the book that would worry me most how to surrender well there's that famous story

isn't there of Man United were on the way back from a game in Europe and the players called David Moyes reading like leadership for dumbness. Oh, really? I've heard. On the plane.

Oh, I love that. And they were like, come on, Gaffa. Yeah. So, Alexander's reading, it doesn't end there, though. His lackeys also furnished him with the history books of Philistius, which focus on the story of Sicily, copies of plays by the great tragedians,

Eurphides, Sophocles, and Esclayus. I wouldn't want to read anything by a tragedy if I'm at war. and get in my head. I'd just be reading positive stuff. I mean, back to my Ville Grimm book. Yeah, can I have good vibes only, please? And also poetry books were also packed for him on his campaigns.

One other figure to emerge from the fog of what Alexander might have read or enjoyed being performed by others is Xenophon, who's a military commander and historian, who'd been part of an older Greek campaign to defeat the Persian Empire and had written a book about it. The Anabasis, or as it's often translated these days, the expedition of Cyrus or the Persian expedition was written around 370 BC

and it was an inspiration to many Greeks of Alexander's generation. It's essentially like the Jack of Kerouac on the road of today, essentially. It really generally is what it was. And from reading this book, you talk about El, you talk about him leaning back and looking like he's not interested in war,

it would worry you'd see a guy sort of like just reading mid-battle. Actually, he did take a lot from his reading. From reading this particular book, the Persian expedition, and a play called the Persians, and perhaps also Herodotus, who wrote his histories a century earlier. Alexander learned all about that part of the Persian Empire, which covered modern-day Turkey, Syria, Iraq. He read these books and acquired knowledge, not just about the geography of this part of the world, but also something of the urban

setting of the major cities and their defences, kind of like a lonely planet guide, essentially. Similar text, not mentioned always in relation to Alexander himself, but to those around him, including Aristotle, gave the Greeks and Macedonians an idea about Central Asia and the Indus Valley as well. These included the explorer Silax's Peripus or circumnavigation, which first introduced India to the Greeks. I love the idea of these books existing so long ago that people could find out about these parts of the world that are so far away and so essentially inaccessible to people. It implies that the world was smaller than you would anticipate. Exactly, yeah. They're reading about other parts of the world.

And that must have been so exciting. Like now, obviously, we're aware of what the world is like because either we've been there or we... Google Imaged it. Google Image did. Or we've watched document. You know, it's just there constantly being part of our life. But reading about these places for the first time must have been amazing.

Like when he's reading about the way cities are built and all this sort of stuff and the cultural differences, it must have been an amazing thing to be across for the first time. Also, like I was in Switzerland a couple of weeks. watching the women's euros. Everyone spoke English. So you're not really, you're not Markopolo, are you?

You're not being that intrepid by going to Zurich to watch some football. Yeah. Completely different languages. Yeah. You wouldn't have had an app on your phone to translate basic stuff. They were properly intrepid.

You also, you have literally never tasted that food or anything like that, whereas now we live in cities or in a country where every type of food You really are encountering things for the first time. Let's face it, I went to a Pratt at Zurichby train station, okay? And I had what I always have in Pratt. What is that?

Let's try and guess. I'm going to go tuna, line court tuna baguette. Is that right? I do like that. This time round, I actually had the ham and gherkin moon baguette and a pot of mango. Oh, yes, please. Tick-tick. And it tasted just as nice in Zurich as it does in London,

and as it does in Cardiff, as it does in Edinburgh. As it does, impressive. You're such an intrepid traveller. Cuisines of all kinds. It says to you that Alexander Great had the Swedish meatball round. That's what it says. Did he? What a maniac.

That's what he'd wherever he went. But this thirst for knowledge is something that Alexander had always had, okay? And I think that's what's kind of interesting about this person. Like, he had this incredible education, but he also had a want to learn, and he was just fascinated by the world. The historian and the biographer Plutarch, when writing, about Alexander, about how Persian diplomats had visited Phillips Court, he describes how the young teen prince had questioned them about the Royal Road, the highway running all the way from the Sardis in the west of Anatolia through to the Sousa in modern day Iran. Alexander, this is just as a

young teenager, had also asked about its length, about the way stations that were stationed along the route of this road, how the Royal Messages could travel along it so far, so they covered 2,000 miles in just seven days, staggering, and how it functioned as the heart of imperial infrastructure. because he had a mind that was finally trained by Aristotle, a mind that could think about these things, being in a position to process the information acquired, and exactly why his father had poured so much money into his education. And as I say, it's why I'll never forgive my parents

for sending me to quite an average state school, the world's most intelligent man to make sure I did wear in my GCSE. But that is the education of Alexander. And what I find interesting about it is, obviously, he is a nepo baby by some regard. he lives in a huge house he has the best education but he's also someone who has a mind that wants to learn is fascinated by the world and and that is also a huge part of his success it's not simply what he was born into it's also so much about who he is and the way his brain works and that's what

we'll find out as we continue this story i honestly think we're changing interpretations of alexander the great no one has ever called him a nepo baby and no one has ever said the house he grew up in was so big he would have been permanently enlightened. I think somehow we are changing the historiography around Alexander the Great. And it's brave and it has to be admired. Yeah. Do you think as well, like he's living in the age of the conquering monarch? Do you think when he's reading books about India and all these far-off places that he finds

interesting and he's thinking, I'll have that, I'll get out that. Yeah, you know, like it's like the Argos catalogue in the 90s. To be honest, Chris. To answer your question, genuinely, I imagine as an adult, when he is a military leader, that is exactly what's happening. Yeah. That is completely it. I think probably as a teenager, not. But as a, once he's sort of like got his bloodlust up and running and he's conquered a few places, that's absolutely what you.

I don't know, though. Even as a teenager, you'd know what was expected of you as an adult. Yeah, maybe that is true. Oh, how quickly I take that back. You've gazumped my opinion. Now then, the great Dr. Darrell Leeworthy, does all of our historical research, Darrell the historian, makes a very interesting point in part three, the section I'm taking,

because the greatest challenge faced by any historian of Alexander is knowing anything at all. So from what we know, the three of us have posited that the house he grew been was annoying and that he was like a rich kid in Argos whenever he read about other cultures and countries. And that it was weird he took books on his way on his way to battle as well. Yeah, exactly. However, very few records survive from the 4th century BC. So our principal sources, those histories are written by Ariane, a friend of the Roman Emperor Hadrian, Curtis, Diodorus, Justin and Plutat were all written centuries later. So those men survive, but their sources do not. So it's like telling the history of Henry the 8th or Elizabeth I first or Oliver Cromwell, but with only the Victorian biographies available and nothing else.

That's really interesting. Yeah, because it's so long ago. So our sense of and our sensibility towards the subject is utterly shaped by the requirements, the needs and the interests, not to mention the rhetorical style and the purpose of a much later and a very different time. It's why I refuse to listen to the 90s football call That's quickly, Kevin, because it was 15 years after the event You can't trust their opinion. Too far from the source material. Exactly.

You know, memory, it's a very imperfect way of, it's very unreliable. Which is why, if I was you, for God's sake, don't listen to quick enough. It's just not good enough. It actually muddies the waters. Also, we don't always have the full version. of even those later Roman or Greco-Roman sources. So the chunks of Curtius' history of Alexander are lost. So our vision of Alexander ended up either being one of the romantic hero or the blood-thirsty tyrant

or else the Great Conqueror or the gay icon or whatever might be applied in whatever moment. So if you're approaching from the Greco-Roman sources and he's an inspiration, but then you take the Persian side and he's the enemy, he's the accursed tyrant, who engaged in religious persecution. So it's very hard to build up an accurate portrayal of what he actually was like. So indeed, in recent decades, what we know about Alexander's changed significantly as our appreciation of sources not in Greek or Latin has expanded. So those older but still principal sources are being joined by archaeological finds,

by reconstructive archaeology, which is very exciting, which is brought to life ancient music and poetry, for instance, by texts or evidence from other civilizations, most notably the Egyptians, the Persians and the Babylonians, and by clearer textual analysis of surviving ancient literature. So this is the really exciting thing, because when I was, I mean, this was wrong and this was ignorant, but when I was making my choices of degree,

I definitely wanted to do history. And I thought to myself, well, I think modern history will be more exciting than ancient history, which is now something I disagree with and wish I'd done a broader degree, actually. because the thing with sources, even when you're going this far back, they're changing all the time, and interpretations are changing all the time.

So that's where the excitement comes in, right? Now, as for archaeology, well, this gives us tantalizing clues as well. So the monument to an Egyptian civil servant witnessed the Greek invasion of Persia, which is now housed in a Naples museum, or you've got the royal decree of Philippi, set in stone around 330 BC,

which resolved a border dispute, or the inscription from the Temple of Athena Priyne, housed in the British Museum so you can see that if you live in the UK which notes that Alexander gave funds for its completion or the coins that were minted during his reign with images variously of Athena Nike Alexander himself and a lion

so the more you look then the more Alexander appears as a kind of ghost from the past he's in the Bible he's in the Quran he's in Zoroastrian and Persian text which is the Persian Book of Kings in Josephus's Jewish histories

and thanks to the Alexander romance in literary traditions and folk tales from all over the world. So the romance was a medieval or fictionalised or mythologised version of the Alexander story, which is why he crops up in Hamlet. So in the scene when Yorick holds a skull and asks, do you reckon Alexander look like this in the ground? That's Alexander the gate.

Why he appears in Shakespeare's Henry V when the comedy Welshman, Flewling, claims the Monmouth-born Henry as the new Alexander. Why is in Chaucer's Munk's tale as well? as someone so famous everyone knows his name and now he reached the ends of the earth Wow! The biblical Booker Daniel for instance, which is written in Babylon in the second century

BC, i.e. in the sort of hundreds BC but set in the 6th century BC, either 500s, offers a prophetic vision of Alexander. So first we get the image of the Persian Empire, here presented as a ram. I saw the ram pushing westward and northward and

southward so that no beasts might stand before him. Neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand but he did according to his will and he became great so he appears in the Bible as a ram that's amazing like the guy is big the guy is big time so this does lend further sort of credence

to that suggestion that in the pre-entenet internet age he's the most famous you can see if he's across so many cultures he's written about in so many he wasn't in the Bible exactly and I love Pelley he would have been if the chronology matched

You can't tell me if Pele wasn't playing at that level at the time he'd have made it in. Can you imagine the book of Brazil 1970? But he'd have been in there somewhere, surely. Yeah, oh absolutely. All over the New Testament. And then Alexander became Greece as a giant horned goat bringing forth a challenge to the ram's power. And, as I was considering, behold,

a he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth and touched not the ground, and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great towards the south and towards the east and towards the pleasant land. So Alexander, the King of Greece, a giant horned goat, bringing forth a challenge to the ram's power in the Bible.

The guy is box office, okay? He's Brad Pitt, he's Tom Cruise, he's Jackman. He's Timothy Shalomey. How are you feeling if someone's written a book and said, I've written about you in my book, Elle. You know, that's nice. You read it. and it's about you as a goat with a horn pointing out to the work.

I'd be like, okay, okay. It's not what I expected. Lovely to be in the book, obviously. Lovely to be in the Bible. I'm not thrilled. Do you want to mention my football shirt collection or that, maybe just stuff on it? Okay, right. No, no worries.

Okay, thank you. I have a goat with a third horn for him. Yeah, you're going to mention my British podcast award? No, all right, don't worry about it. It's 100% go-based, fine. Yeah. Now when all is said and done The Ram is defeated by the goat

Who becomes for a short time Master of the Earth So this is a useful guide To the way which Alexander's legend Have become folktale in the century and a half after his death So people are talking about him 150 years after he died Right So prophetic visions like the reality of history But how they fit with other ways of talking about the past

In song, in poem, in art or in metaphor But even these biblical texts Ancient as they are of course And they are hundreds of years older than other sources still don't bring us to Alexander's time. For that, we need to look at the writings left behind by the Persian Empire itself and to the Babylonian astronomical diaries.

So written on clay tablets and cuneiform. These diaries record events and observations of the heavens with some of those that survive detailing Alexander's conquest as it happened. So these clay tablets, many of them are now housed in the British Museum in London, which seems good and fine and normal to me. Yeah, in no way problematic. are remarkable because they are contemporary and they even hint at how the Macedonians spoke

or at least how the Babylonians thought the Macedonian spoke which might be like using I don't know alo as a guide on how to say anything in French but still Alexander's name is given as Alexander by the Babylonian scribes not as Alexander Russo which would have been the appropriate sort of translation of the standard Greek Alexandros so we know so much about Alexander then

but even the bits about image and vice speculation because for almost two and a half thousand years humans especially in Europe and the Middle East and Central Asia have been fascinated by him yeah so you're just trying to pick you're just trying to find little fragments that helped to build the picture of Alexander the Great because it's so long ago

but he had such an enormous influence on the time people have been you know if Shakespeare was writing about him yeah like the guy is a big deal. And also trying to sift through and find out what is not simply legend and apocryphal sort of, you know, all that sort of, you know, how you sift through that as well is kind of what's fascinating, isn't it? It's a great shame that in ancient Macedonia, they didn't have camera phones. Oh, yeah. Or ring cameras in the big David Lloyd.

The footage could have been great, couldn't it? But unfortunately, you were having to rely on clay tablets. What I find particularly exciting about Alexander the Great is there's a lot of mythology around him but the basic facts we know to be true that he was one of the greatest military commanders throughout history that he did create this enormous empire

we know that stuff's true it's all the little stuff around it is like the mythology which I think just makes the story even richer more interesting Yeah yeah yeah Yeah Because he achieved some incredible blood-drenched things in his time doesn't he

It's, as we'll find out in coming episodes, the story is wild where it takes us. But crucially, it's remarkable. He did not ever win the Professional Darts Championship. His one regret. Elle, as you mentioned, Cuneiform, I always get shivers. You know why? It was what I think our great group mistake on this podcast, remember that? Probably one of the most correction corners we ever got.

Yeah. Where we suggested that when it came to, ancient tablets it was scratched into the dry clay and that's how they wrote in it rather than of course as our bright listeners pointed out they would have written it when wet and it would have hardened yeah yeah yeah yeah I feel nothing but shame for that that was a low point so if we can we could avoid that triggering word from now on that would be good no mention of clay tablets no mention of cuneiform and then we'll be good so this is really exciting I'm really excited about this this show I think it's

can be really great. This is the backstory of the guy. This is his youth. This is his education. This is what's created. This is what's starting to form the person he is. And we have an incredible story coming up for you. Yes, so this is the 10-part series on Alexander the Grey. And if you want to hear it right now, you can listen all about the murder of Alexander's dad. and then also in part four we're going to have Alexander becoming leader of the Greeks and then finally at the end of part four Alexander will be going to war with Persia exciting stuff if you want to get all that now plus the rest of the episodes in this series

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