Oh What A Time... - #148 Audiobooks & Podcasts (Part 1)

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

In our most meta episode ever, this week we’re discussing the history of audiobooks and podcasts! Firstly, what was the equivalent of podcasts in Ancient Rome? How Thomas Edison pioneered the podcast. And lastly.. what was the first podcast, proper?Plus also, is Center Parcs the greatest place in earth? Will the marketing directors at Center Parcs reach out to us? And is everything better now? Do let us know: [e-mail] in huge news, Oh What A Time is now on Patreon! From content you’ve never heard before to the incredible Oh What A Time chat group, there’s so much more OWAT to be enjoyed!On our Patreon you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

O Watertime is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else, ad free, plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up.

For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O-Watertime. Hello and welcome to, oh, what a time. It's a history podcast. Now, on this weekend just gone, before we're recording this, I went to Centre Parks, as recommended by Tom. And I was walking around... Oh, unbelievable. I couldn't believe it, actually.

I grew up in Butlin's Bogner Regis, and I just assumed that's what it was like. But I had never... no appreciation of the scariness of the ziplines. Or how good the tree climbing was. The quality of the swimming pool is what you're missing out on there. Oh my God. The lazy river.

Unbelievable. Oh, God. I was walking around Centre Parks and this thought hit me about the past. I should say, by the way, this isn't a live read for Centre Parks. This is just Chris and Tom's genuine opinion. Absolutely. So if there's anyone from Centre Past listening, want us to get involved, it will come from the heart.

And we won't mention the fact that you lock people in their shalries when you were trying to get them to grieve during the death of the queen. Do you remember that? What happened? New stories of all time. When the queen died a few years ago. Because she died at Centre Park, isn't she? Not on the zip line.

She died on the lazy river, yeah. If she did die on the zip line, it would be her own responsibility. She was weighed down by her crown. One is in trouble. That's what she yelled out. It was during the period of national mourning When obviously everyone had to be very, very respectful And not do too much

But centre parks remained open But they were like, could you all stay in his chalets and mourn? Did they? Like, not really. So people had to stay indoors? Well, that was the big news story, wasn't it? And it was very bad for the option. So if you were seen on the zip line

During the Queen's funeral, that would have been seen as... You were clearly a Republican. Okay. What? I don't understand. You couldn't mourn outside. Yeah, so they basically, I think it might have been the day the funeral. They should at least have said, if you are going to go out on your bikes, at least look a bit sad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can go around Centre Parkes. You can go and visit the owls or go on Go Ape or whatever, but you have to look a bit sad when it's happening. We survived the Centre Park's Royal Lockdown of 2022. Go on. Center Parks has backtracked over a decision to ask guests to leave its sights on the day the Queen's funeral because I can't remember the details but they said that the guests had to leave it's five UK sites for 24 hours yes basically cleared centre parks with 24 hours and then people

are allowed back to continue their holidays that's amazing a couple of points I think in general forced grieving is never genuine grieving is it no I think if you're forcing people to stay and think about the death of someone then maybe it's not coming naturally it's like totalitarian states sort of like 10 days of sort of national mourning when the totality leader dies. You think, how upset are they really? Well, my second point relates to that,

at least that's 10 days. It's interesting they've gone 24 hours and they've got it out of your sister within a day. That's fine. They've gone the Queen deserves 24 hours of morning and then you'll be fine. Then you can get back on the zip line. Sorry, but this is an awful decision that has left us devastated. They pleaded. By all means, close the restaurants and activities but let us stay on the park.

rival holiday company Butlins has said its results will be staying open on Monday Wow You can do what you want in Butlins Oh in forced celebration As Prince Andrew was stripped of his titles That was last weekend

People were forced to celebrate Stay at Centre Parks Have a great time In celebration of that fact So Chris what was your point anyway After we've just But I mean it's not a plug Al you're right

That was just a natural chat But if you are interested www www centreparks.comco. I've taken my family We've had great We've had great times. Bedford. Yes. Bedford away, 2021.

My mum came. Bedford away. Great, great times. It's great. I had no idea it even existed. Anyway, I was walking around Centre Parks and this thought hit me. Isn't everything just better now? Everything is better.

Everything is better. Almost everything. 99% better. I never went on a holiday like Centre Parks when I was a kid. I went to Butlins. I met Cheryl Baker. I also met Timmy Mallet. I had less of a good introduction to Timmy Mallet.

He said he would only sign an autographs for kids who had bought merchandise. I didn't buy any merchandise because my parents were off doing something else. I didn't have any money. I went in there. Timmy Mallet wouldn't sign my bit of pay. Are you kidding? No. Anyway, actually, maybe leave that out because isn't he quite litigious?

Is he going to sue you for the story that he didn't give you an autograph? I'm not sure he can force that through the courts, Chris. I'd be confident about keeping that in. That's not libelous, is it? I mean, your proof, your defence would, you'd have to invite the jury. to show that you don't have his autograph. Yeah. You're like, right, look through all my stuff.

I haven't got it. I haven't got it. The perfect twist at the end when Timmy Mallet signs his court papers and Chris goes, yo-y! Gets that signature he's been waiting for for 30 years. But just to complete that thought, I was in a pub a couple of weeks ago in Bethnal Green. When I was growing up, Bethel Green was not that very nice. You go down there now, they've got so many pubs like microbreweries and the lighting's amazing. Every pub felt really distinct and different.

When we grew up, there was like two kinds of pubs. There was like, what Weather Spoons is now, that was basically the only kind of pub that existed. And now everything, the films, everything is so much better. My friend Phil said, he's been watching Wales play since the late 70s, I think. And when we failed to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, I had a drink with him in Chapter Arts Centre in Cardiff. And he looked fairly sanguine about it all.

And he said, everything's better. You know, we haven't qualified, but we got there. two years ago for the euros, the beer is better, there's no handkerow. No one's, no, there's no fighting at the ground, it's just better. I'm going to say one thing, Chris, community. Because when you were growing up in East Den, people who said leave their doors are knocked, didn't they? But that doesn't happen anymore.

E-bikes, e-scooters. I'd also like to chuck in the iPhone now. People staring at their screens rather than looking at their love ones. ones in the army? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that better? Is that the future you want, Chris? I've been with Izzy since 2010, got my first iPhone in 2011. I haven't looked her in the eyes for 14 years. I don't even know what colour they are.

I'm sure she's really pretty. I've got no idea, but she's a great texter. Ellis and Izzy on Mr and Mrs. some ITV show where the final question for a million pounds is what color is her Izzy's eyes. Ellis starts to sweat. Yeah, I don't know. I can tell you what her, well, I mean, I can tell you what her sort of emoji icon is on WhatsApp. How many kisses she puts on a text? Zero, actually. We're on the rocks.

But I do know what you mean, Chris. It's interesting that you've crystallised that down to centre parks and the gentrification of Bethnal Green. I would say that there are other areas that might argue that maybe they haven't gone through quite the same. Yes. Surgeons and things out, as they always were. But telly, the quality of tellies. Telly's are better and cheaper. I had to buy a telly other week.

I couldn't know how cheap and good it was. Yes, tellies are better and cheaper. That's true. Preferred the four-channel age. There's no such thing as the news anymore. Because everyone just gets their own news fed to them on their phones. So here's one thing that happened. And again, this is another thing that I think everything's better now.

My kids, when we went to Centre Parks, they're six and three. and they had what we would call linear TV. So just your regular channels. Every time the advert break came on, they were like, it's gone off. It's gone off. They're like, what's happened? It's gone off what's going on.

No, they're adverts. They never watch actual telly. They're so used to like Netflix or iPlay or whatever. They had no idea. It's good that you fully embrace the outdoorsiness of centre parks anyway. It's gone off. That's so funny. Now, a cynical mind would now chuck in global warming

and the proliferation of nuclear weapons and all that sort of stuff as maybe an example of maybe why the world isn't better. Yeah, we had mutually issue with destruction. It was just the Soviets and the West. Yeah. The word nuclear weapons when we were young. Now it's about 15 countries with nuclear weapons. Have you never heard of the Cuban missile crosses?

It was worse in the 60s. No, but it's everywhere now. Yeah, that's true. You know, they're very popular now, nuclear weapons. But I know, I get your point, Bethel Green's better. Putin's got nukes, but Bethel Green is better. And that's the main thing. So today's episode is going to be a fun one, I think, isn't it?

I can say, I love the bit that I'm talking about today. I always love what we talk about. But I'm particularly interested in the stuff that our wonderful historian, Dr. Daryl Leeworthy, found. And I think it's a fascinating subject. We are looking at the history of podcasts. and audiobooks, essentially, today. Big time. It is a snake eating its own tale.

That's what it is. Yeah, very meta. Yeah, so I will be discussing the history of the podcast. I will be talking about the very beginnings of the spoken word. It'll make sense as I go into it, but the Romans are involved. Oh, okay. And what about you, Chris? And I'll be explaining how Thomas Edison invented the phonograph and in a way invented the audiobook too.

Oh, lovely. Fantastic. Before that, should we do a little bit of correspondence? I think that only feels right. So, you sent us some correspondence, have you? Well, let's take a look at you then. Okay, today's email comes from Joanne Hall. The title is Historical Outdoor Show, North East England.

Hello there, lovely chaps. I'm emailing you after listening to your episode, Seven Deadly Sins My Pursuit of Lance Armstrong by David Walsh. If you're not a subscriber, this is the most recent subscriber episode we've done. Chris Scull talked about the story of Lance Armstrong and all his naughty antics. And it was a great episode. I absolutely loved it. If you sign up now, you can listen to it.

And in fact, Joanne agreed. Joanne says, although it was a fascinating episode, the reason I'm writing is in response to the mention of Poit du Fu, which is the historical theme park in France, which you all seem very intrigued by. For those you haven't heard, this was a theme park which stages large-scale reenactments, Viking invasions, great battles, with hundreds of actors. Dad, they're doing the bubonic plague. Exactly. It's jobbing actors covered in boils, coughing on each other's. It's great entertainment.

Well, Joanne says, I just wanted to let you know that since 2016, we have had a historical night show, which was founded partly by Poitou in the north-east of England. I did not know about this. And it sounds amazing. In Bishop Auckland, not far from Durham, our historical night show at Kainren, which I hope I'm pronouncing right, consists of nearly 1,000 cast and crew already impressed, who were mostly volunteers, who are mostly volunteers. I love this.

The show runs every Saturday from the start of July to mid-September, year. We have an 8,000-seater tribune which overlooks a seven-and-a-half-acre stage. How cool is this? And includes hills, horse tracks, a replica Auckland Castle, a full-size working replica of the first passenger train, and a vast lake on which actors are able to perform. And in the section on 1066, William the Conqueror and his Norman soldiers emerge from on their invading ship. She says here, imagine the Olympic Games opening ceremony in 2012, but with large-scale battles, Viking invaders, a medieval festival, jousting and a coal mine, not to mention dancers, haunts, harns riders, farm animals that all perform on stage to bring history to life

and the show ends with a spectacular firework finale. Thoughts on that? How cool is that? I had no idea this existed. That sounds fantastic. I'm presuming it's all local history. No, it's a different history from around Britain from what I can make out here. It's got over a thousand volunteers who act and perform in the different set pieces. So far, the show is attracted over 400,000 visitors from all over the world. I've been volunteering this wonderful show since the beginning and was fortunate this year to have had a part in our full-size Viking Village. And next year we're looking forward to the day park opening which will offer a time-travelling theme park experience as if it couldn't get any better and live action show. Keep on bringing us

your wonderful podcast. It really does brighten my day. Best wishes, Joanne Fernel. How cool does that sound? I just love that. Yeah. Great day out. It's not centre parks, but it's up there. There is the kind of thing, though, that could make a little kid love history for the rest of their life. Completely. You know, if you've got to see a show like that, then you buy Idaho. The Yazsborn Book of the Vikings or something. And then next, you know, Bob's your uncle. You've got a lecturer at Oxford University on your hands.

Okay, you turn up day one. You're a volunteer. What role in what moment in history are you hoping to be handed? What do you want to be told is your role? I feel ready to be King Harold. arrow in the eye. Okay, that's a big one. As a volunteer. Yeah. Yeah. And I love the show. The show must go on. I am willing to get an arrow in the eye. If there are people coming to watch, you know, you only need one eye anyway. My granddad lost an eye in a welding accident in 1950. So let's bring it on,

runs in the family. As you've discussed, you no longer look your wife in the eye either. So that doesn't matter. I don't even need it. My fear is you're turning up though well and they're saying you're peasant in the stocks. I think that's your concern, isn't it? That you are immovable and you're stuck in the middle and the audience are encouraged to throw veg and fruit at you from the seats. That's my worry. Yes. Then the trousers and puns get pulled down and, uh, yeah, a nightmare. And then they're locking up at the end, they're turning off the lights and you're still there and nobody's noticed. Excuse me? Hello? Excuse me!

The key turning in the lock and you know it's not on again until next Saturday. It's not on again until next summer. Excuse me Rowsers around your ankle What about you skull What are you hoping to be handed What moment from history Anything Henry the 8th

Jousting Yes Yeah yeah A bit of jousting Arrogent From a man who's never Never mentioned That he can ride a horse before

Suddenly he's doing jousting The thing that struck me As a kid Was going to see the Going to the Tower of London And seeing Henry the 8th's armour And seeing the big codpiece For his big regent member

Yeah And that stayed with me forever So to be part of that And they'd have to elongate the codpiece. But if they could negotiate that. So you're saying bravely riding a horse, fighting another person with something which makes your penis look massive. That's how desperate you are to come across with a man,

like a masculine bloke. Wasn't that, Elle? Yeah, I mean, it perfectly fits the Chris skull I know and love. Yeah, yeah. Big old whopper. I would like to wear. a suit of armour. Wouldn't you like to just feel what it fit, like just to try and get about?

Run an errand, go to Gregg's. On public transport. Get a sausage roll, come home. It feels unwieldy. Have you tried one? No, but do you remember Deonti Wilder before he fought Tyson Fury? Oh yes. He lost because he knacked himself walking to the ring.

Did the ring walk in that sort of weird heavy suit? Sits up in the story's like, bloody hell. She's really tired. Which is why if I ever. in a heavyweight title match I would fight naked so I was just like a dressing girl on the way in

nice thin dressing guy and then a gasp from Madison Square Garden as you drop it Carried to the ring on a bed like the start of the monkeys Yeah Quick coffee in

Wallop Bed in the corner between rounds Well I would watch Would watch Well thank you very much Joanne for sending us that That sounds genuinely brilliant

She actually mentions in the email that we should make an effort to go and visit one day. Yeah, that does sound great. And that's a fantastic thing. And I promise that is the thing I will plan to do because it sounds absolutely brilliant. If there's anything else that you guys have local to you that you think we should know about that has a historical bent, then do let us know. I'd love to know the stuff that's out there that we're missing out on. Anything you want to email us about, here's how. All right, you horrible look.

Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. you can email us at hello at oh what a time.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh what a time pod now clear off all right then before we crack on with the show shall we do a couple of patron all-timer shout out we're going to name some fans of the show in this tier who have signed up become an oh what a time all-timer The top tier, and we will now postulate where in history you may have been with a name like yours.

And up first, it's Hannah McIntosh. The actual inventor of the Apple Macintosh who has never been recognised. That has missed out on billions and billions of pounds. Yeah. God, she could be rich, poor Hannah McIntosh. Steve Jobs, he really took the piss. Hannah McIntosh, Steve Jobs' girlfriend at university. Oh, that's good. Well, hang on it.

I want to take you back to maybe 1680 to the most violent of all the clans in Scotland, the Macintosh's. Yeah, yeah. Or maniac, she's a nutter. Famously in the Macintosh clan, it was the women who were more mad than the men. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's Hannah all over. That's classic Hannah. It was very much a matriarchal society.

The women did all the fighting. The women did all the drinking, the hunting and the gathering. And the most feared of them all. Hannah. Hannah Macintosh, of course, absolutely. Wielding her axe. Steve Jobs, got his cock and balls. Slice off, wallop.

Would you like one more? I would, of course, yeah. Difficult to think of this individual with a job that was anything other than an accountant. It is, of course, Scott Ledger. I was thinking West Ham left back from about 1993. Yeah. Had a bizarrely bad first touch for a professional footballer.

Dropped out of the Premier League, went straight to non-league where he remained at the age of 23 for the rest of his career. I reckon it was youth team, Man United. never played transferred to West Ham played 14 games of West Ham and then dropped down the league

14 games for West Ham and yet appeared on the fanzine covered the fanzine six times because he was so shit Yeah Poor old Scott Ledger But maybe he scored one great goal In the FA Cup

For quite a small team Later on in his career Yeah yeah yeah Against QPR Sort of sort of Not like top tier giant killing But it's like non-league team beating a championship team

It's still good 35 yards in the mud. Yeah, the frozen, frosty mud. Scott Ledger! Ledger! Love it. That's absolutely,

that's definitely what it is. It's kind of true underperforming West Hamletlander. Yeah. Redemption for Ledger! They said it would ever happen as Loftus Road Paul silent. The 300 or so Billerickey fans in the away end

are in ecstasy as Scott Ledger. Poor old Miss Anderson's Scott Ledger, is it a referee? Trevor Sinclair can't believe it. Yeah, yeah. And he's being sent off for over-exuberant celebrations now. He's walking down the tunnel.

As he flicks the bird to the manager and the referee. I don't really feel like that might have happened. Yeah, yeah. I was so vivid, Ellis. It was such a good impression. Will this be his final act in English football? Yeah, absolutely love it. Scott Ledger, that's who you are, I'm afraid.

Scott Ledger, yeah. The West Ham fallback. Yeah, yeah. And then Julian Dixer's interviewed about him. He's like, I don't remember him. Scott Ledger, who's that? What year would that have been? He came on for me.

Scott Ledger? Was that his name then? Scott Ledger? Scott, what would I call him, Scotty? Scored that screamer in the FA Cup against QP. Oh, Scott Ledger, yeah. So there you go. Thank you to our Oh, What a Time, All-Timmers.

You can become an Oh, What a Time, All-Timer. to access the oh what time group chat loads of good stuff if you want to sign up here's how hello again you horrible lot enjoying the show well why not show the love by becoming a patron supporter today for a mere handful of farthings you can get ad-free shows two bonus subscriber episodes each month access to all the past bonus eps first dibs on live tickets and even help decide what subjects the boys cover next. Your support makes everything possible, so sign up today at patreon.com

slash oh what's the time or oh what's the time.com. What are you waiting for? Stop dawdling. So on this episode we're talking about podcasts and audiobooks. A little bit later in this episode, I'll be telling you all about Thomas Edison's attempt, successful attempt, to invent the phonograph. I'll be talking about the invention of the podcast. And I'm going to be taking you back to ancient Rome and the precursor to podcast and audiobooks.

Before I get into this, I just want to briefly discuss what I had to endure while prepping this section of the show. You guys saw that I wrote about it on my Instagram. I just want the listeners to know this is a dedication that went into this what I had to ignore when I was doing with this I was sat on a train sat at a table working on my laptop

prepping this bit of the show while opposite me a couple, the entire journey from Exeter to London were kissing each other and feeding each other fruit and I didn't have my headphones so I could hear the constant sound of lips

smacking for two and a half hours. Were they making kissing noises? They were making proper cartoon kissing noises when they kissed. And how old? They were early 40s, late 30s. At one point she got a pannet of strawberries out and fed the entire strawberry into

his mouth in one go, including the green big at the end. Including the stalk. Oh my God, it's a psychopathic. Do you reckon they were having an affair? That's an interesting question. I don't know. But my main concern is whether I was inadvertently part of their enjoyment, if that make sense.

And what? Making you feel awkward? Like exhibitionists. Well, no, that they quite like the fact I was sat there

because they were just going the whole time. Wait, you think the fun's at the part. They signed up to the patron

as they got off at King's golf it's all right. Oh, they're, they're patrons. Don't you worry. That's one of the Patreon benefits,

by the way. You get to sit in front of me and snog your part for three and a half hours. You kiss in front of Tom for two hours. A couple of little choice bits, one bit,

one point, a blueberry fed out of his mouth onto my foot. and he just looked at it, didn't apologize and just continued kissing. And the worst bit, and I did write about this, is the fact at one point she hit him on the hand and then he said, why did you do that? And she said, so I can kiss it better and then snogged his hand. I experienced all of that.

Were they drunk? In the name of this podcast, because I wanted to remain at a table where I could work. I could have left and sat in the vestibule, but I needed to work. Were they drunk? They were not drunk. There was no alcohol around. they were just... I'm assuming they weren't married. From what I know about married, like the throes of passion.

Incredible. Right. With that context, I hope you appreciate this section. I'm going to talk to you, as I say, about the beginning of podcasts, basically, way back in ancient Rome. So, for some of the umbrella context of how podcasts are doing at the moment, podcasts are big business, there are now over... I didn't know, this is incredible, four and a half million. different podcasts available to listen to globally. Wow. Do you know that? Yeah. Four and a half a million. And I would bet 150,000 of those are actually listened to by more than three people.

That may be right. They've done research though, Chris, and it turns out the only one worth listening to is, oh, what a time with Chris. The rest is politics. The rest is politics. The rest is politics, which is great, exactly. In fact, podcasts are so popular nowadays. I think it's kind of easy to forget how relatively modern they

In the 90s, audiobooks were generally only consumed by the elderly, and no one had heard the word podcast. It just didn't exist. And suddenly this huge industry exists really over the last 15, 20 years. It's remarkable how quickly it's grown. Do you remember the first time you listened to a podcast? This is quite embarrassing. The first podcast I listened to was my own because I didn't know what it was. So I did mention this on the radio show the other day.

so apologies for repeat to myself but John and I have been on air since February 2014 and in the first meeting we had with XFM John said is the show going to be a podcast and producer Dave I assume said oh yeah yeah yeah

and John went oh good good good good and I went yeah good good good good good good good not knowing what it was and then in the first sort of we must have recorded the show and then afterwards John said right let's record an intro for the podcast. And I was like, okay. No, no. So I saw that there.

Taking a strange pose, not showing what you're supposed to be doing. I had hosted one. Okay. Like, I'd hosted history a couple years before, but I'd, I'd no idea how to listen to it or what it was. Because I never owned an iPod. Okay, yeah. Didn't you? No, I'd never owned an iPod. What did you did? You walked around with a big folder of CDs? Full record player on wheels. I was extremely physical media. I love it. Are we talking tape or CD sort of like a non-skinned? Oh, better both.

So we recorded the intro where we sort of John said hello and led it a bit and then we read out a couple of emails or whatever. I remember thinking, oh, right. And then a few weeks later I thought, I should probably listen. And then realise it was the show with the intro and the outro. But John was a massive podcast when he was a big listener of Adam and Joe. And they used to do an intro and intro. And I think there's a big,

because there were lots of successful radio shows at the time that didn't become massive podcasts. I think it's because John very shrewdly knew how to turn a radio show into a podcast by doing the intro and the outro and engaging with listening to emails and stuff. Yeah. Like I would have done that stuff on air,

but there's something different about doing an intro and how true, I think. And so I started to listen to that and then I started listening to Guardian Football Weekly and they were the first ones really. And Richard Herrings, where I used to love Listerba. I was into it quite late, 2014. It took me quite a while to get my head around what a podcast was. But not as long as it took me to get my head around.

I remember this. It must have been like three or four years for me to understand what an app was. I just couldn't understand it. I remember about five or six times people try to explain, you download the... And I just couldn't understand what. I just couldn't get my brain to get grapple with what an app was. I used to do so much stuff in the browser. Yes.

I was like, why, I was doing the browser? I love the browser. I don't know why I had such loyalty to it. the browser. Exactly. I've deleted Uber Eats, by the way, in an attempt to get a bit healthier, which now means I just go to Uber Eats through the browser.

That's what's happened. You told me this the other day. I've just made my life a bit more. No, you said to me, it's all changed. I've deleted all the food delivery apps off my phone. Yeah. Well, that's that then, isn't it? There's no way back now.

What are you going to eat, Tom? What are you going to eat? Well, I guess you're going to starve from here and out. I haven't eaten in a fortnight. What was the first podcast you listened to, Tom? I don't remember. I think it might have been the Adam and Joe one. Or maybe was it just, who's it?

Adam Bucks on his own. Oh, yeah. That one. What was it called? No, I listen, John. All right, fine. Fuck you. Yeah, I've just known you since you.

It was right. Don't worry about it. But let me finish. If I could live my life again, it would still be Adam Bucks on. But the point is, if I could then live it a third time, it would be. Yeah, yeah, the third time round you'd listen to it. Well, I'd listen to Adam Bucks and twice.

I would then. What about, what about you, Chris? The first one I listened to was the Ricky DeVos show with Carl Pilkinton That would have been about 2005 On a podcast Yeah on a podcast I think it was 2005

Yeah It was around right then And I remember listening There was they did one series They did one series They did it brief Through the Guardian And for the second series they said

Look we might have to charge a pound Or something like that And I thought great value And by the way Oh what times Patreon is available right now Go to patron dot com Forrestash OWWatt a time It's good value

It is good value, actually. There's some great episodes there. Right, should we get into this one proper? As I say, this is the context. Podcasts are popular. I think we can agree. But I'm going to take you right back to the Roman Empire to begin our story. Now, Romans, of course, didn't have broadband or even the most basic of iPhones.

I think I've checked. I've Googled it. Definitely true. But they did have analog versions of these things, essentially. Analog versions of the podcast experience that we have now. today. Roman books, at least until the invention of the codex in the second century AD, do you know what the codex is? No. It's essentially, it's basically like our contemporary paperbacks, it gives a spine to something. Oh, okay. It means it can be read as a book. It's like

our paperbacks today. Before that was invented, books took the form of scrolls. So text was written out on scrolls, which had to be unrolled to read, which I'm going to say sounds like a Ball Lake, to me. Imagine your holiday read on a sun lounge. On the beach. Don't get it wet. You're getting the end in the sea, is he? Yeah.

Thoughts on a scroll as a way of sort of consuming your... I mean, how much reading do you think you're doing if it's in scroll form? I think that Jack Kerouac wrote on the road in a giant scroll. Really? Because changing the paper on the typewriter, because obviously he was written in 1950.

was disrupting his flow. Oh, wow. So he basically taped a lot of, like a sort of 300 pages of, 300 pages together and then just kept typing in a frenzy and then delivered it in like a massive scroll, I think, from what I remember. Wasn't, I think, am I right in thinking that in the original one that was submit there, it was basically no punctuation as well. It was just like, in a stream of, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember when I read it, the introduction, like, he just ate a load of pea soup and, like, didn't sleep and I was like I was going to write it all in one go and they got amazing reviews and was sort of astonished. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, that's how I record these podcasts. I mean it for 60 hours now. Just recording. Never ends. Back to back, back. So scrolls appear sort of cumbersome and heavy things to modernise, not sort of straightforward to use. But even though I kind of cast to that unfair eye, it's easy to be kind of presumptive with them. After all, the book scroll had been around for centuries, far longer than the computer or the pocket paperback. It was standard technology for the Greeks and Romans, like no more alien to them than the

smartphone or the keyboard would be to us now. And the greater challenge, really, that was in Roman society, wasn't the use of the scrolls. It was that literacy rates were so low, perhaps maybe 10 to 15% of the population on average, slightly higher in towns and lower in the countryside. So most people only had a vague idea of how to read books, regardless of their form, if it was scroll or codex, even if they might have enjoyed the stories that were written down. So there had to be another way, okay, another way to consume stories, stories written down, but told through oral transmissions. It was like a talking book, essentially, which is where we take our first step towards the world of podcasts. So this blew my mind this. I love that this happened in ancient Rome. I was staggered to find out about this.

Aristocratic Romans who were generally able to read were part of a society for whom books, letters and other formal documents were an essential part of life, okay? However, they were not great enthusiasts of reading because, to put it bluntly, they were really lazy. They couldn't be asked to read. This is completely true of the top level in Roman society. They could read.

They just couldn't be bothered. So even when composing documents, they prefer to dictate to a scribe. rather than writing for themselves. In other words, theirs was like an oral culture, one that connected words to sound rather than coded visual image being the text. So, what do you think aristocratic Romans did

to deal with this fact that they couldn't be bothered to be? So they pay people to read to them? 100% correct. Oh, now that is a job I could do. Yes, absolutely. Also, you can do accents and voices. Read into the posh, yeah. Reading to the wealthy.

Yeah. You can characterise because you can do all these range. You'd be amazing in it. So they paid someone to read to them. Enter the lector, a Roman specialist in reading aloud. Most lectors, okay, they were slaves or else freed slaves, mostly but not exclusively men, whose literacy in both Latin and Greek and perhaps a third language native to the individual was highly prized, okay?

The lector formed part of the aristocrats household. And there they joined scribes, note takers, clerks and others with similar skills of reading and writing in different languages. And the lector performed words. And in this capacity, I love this. They often read for the entertainment of their audience. For example, at dinner parties or maybe at a private setting between slave and master. Okay, here's a couple of descriptions. As the writer Pliny recalled, at supper, if I have only my wife or a few friends with me, some author is to read to us.

The satirical poet Juvenile says, My Dinner Today will offer another kind of enjoyment. We'll have recitations from Homer and Virgil's verse resonating on high, each challenging for supremacy. What matter whose voice delivers such words as those? So what are your thoughts on that? So you go to a dinner party in someone's house or just with your wife after your usual midweek dinner

and then someone in your employ would stand up and start reading to you. Well, it's pre-tellie. Yes. It's pre-radio and it was pre-podcast. I never thought about that. Yeah, you can't, yeah. Also, no electric light. Yes.

So it's hard to play games. Yeah. So you're just going to be chatting in the dark anyway. Well, it's funny you say that because I'd love to, if anyone is listening to this that has insight into what I'm about to say, when you think of medieval Britain, it's always dark and gloomy and candlelight. But whenever I think of ancient Rome, it seems well lit in my mind and in paintings. Well, obviously, sunnier climate, yeah. But even a night with the death of Julius Caesar's at night, that scene seems to be well lit.

The prosecution rests. Seems to be well-rid. Seems to be well-lit when I imagine it. Yeah. One other thing, Craig, the slaves are literate. They can read two languages. Or they would be taught to be literate for the services of this work. That I could do, that I could do.

That is a really good point that, Elle, about this being prior to TV and radio, obviously. But it's such an obvious form of entertainment. If you get a real performer, obviously, great works exist at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see absolutely it's a fantastic way to spend your evening. You've got quality wine because you live in Italy. You've got good food because you live in Rome, so all the good produce is coming in. And now you get a play in your front room.

You don't even need to walk to the amphitheatre. You get it performed there. This sounds really good, actually. The best literary works of the age. And it wasn't a one-voice-fits-all situation either. So certain voices suited certain situations and were employed for such purposes. For example, the Emperor Augustus, for instance,

had a specific lector who read to him, I love this, during the moments and night when he suffered from insomnia, which to me is such a funny image. There's a guy sat at the end of his bed, and Augustus would go, yeah i'm struggling to go to sleep would you mind uh reading me something yeah sure yeah yeah so like a podcast and you just start reading all right then what do you want to read

yeah yeah i don't know you know is there is there a combination is there somewhere between a lector and uh a jester and maybe you get two or three of them to do a live put like just have a conversation have a funny chat have a do a podcast do some improv yeah do some improv around the subject. But improv's not going to help you get to sleep. If it's bad enough. I'm kind of in on this. It doesn't end there, El. It wasn't just in the bedroom when you couldn't get to sleep. This is a really funny image to me, even funnier, I think. Pliny would have his lector read to him when he was having a bath or being robbed down with oils in the bath. So he'd be lying there,

covered in soap suds, and then his lector would be sat next to him reading Harry Potter and the Death of the Harrows or whatever it happens to be. You know, he would just, he'd be. be reading to him as he relaxed in the bath. Yeah. Well, you know, reading of the bath is nice. I listen to podcasts in the bath. So I suppose it's just a, you know, a low-tech version of that, isn't it? Here's something that happened to me.

I listen to a podcast with Martin Clunes, and in it Martin Clune said he listens to podcasts in the bath, and that inspired me to listen to podcasts in the bath. And whenever I listen to a podcast in the bath, I think about Martin Clunes. Yeah, John has thought of Johnny Vaughn in the shower every time he's had a shower since 1997. And there is a third example, which brings us even closer to the contemporary experience of podcasts.

You know how we use podcasts now for long car journeys. It's a way to sort of kill the time. Lecters were used on long journeys as well. So they would travel with the aristocratic Romans wherever they were going, and they would read to them throughout the journey, like a sort of car radio, essentially. Well, I think that podcasts make journeys go faster. Yeah, absolutely. When I've got a long drive, I'll set up my four podcast episodes I'm really looking forward to, and I'll listen to them on the, and it seems to go faster than if I was just listening to an album or something. I don't know why.

Our car radio, unfortunately, is dominated by the children. That's a nice idea, but they're basing inside what we listen to. Well, thankfully, my daughter especially has got a sort of 90s alternative taste of music, so she likes pavement and my bloody Valentine's hilarious. Really? And dinosaur junior bands like that. My son likes some absolute crap. But that's only, you know, that's one song out of every four. So I can put it up with that. So whenever you're listening to a podcast and you catch yourself thinking, you know,

what a brilliant modern invention. I'm in the car. I'm listening to it in bed when I'm trying to get to sleep. Remember that the Romans got there first. And I love that. I love that this existed back then. To me, it feels like a perfect place to be alive. The good quality produce, as I say, wine, lovely weather, quite an advanced society,

all these sort of pleasures that you have access to, which have parallels with the stuff we have today. I mean, you said Chris earlier, this is the best time to be alive. I think ancient Rome is probably up there as well. It'd be up there. That's the second best, yeah. Do you know what, it makes me think, though, as professional podcasters, it makes me think that what we're doing is actually innate to the human experience. It's just a modern tech version or something we'd be doing for thousands of years.

Can I get in a correction before we get any emails? Julius Caesar was assassinated between 10 and 11 a.m. That's why it's well lit. After his wheatabics. Early to get assassinated, didn't it? Yeah. During loose women. Oh, guy.

Well, that's the end of part one. If you want part two of podcasts and audiobooks right now, you can go over to patreon.com forward slash oh what a time and sign up to our range of tears, get a range of offers. That's patreon.com forward slash oh, what a time. If not, we'll see you tomorrow. Bye. Bye.

Oh, what a time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else, add free, plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets, And access to the O-Watertime group chat. Plus, if you become an O-Water-Time All-Tamer, myself, Tom and Ellis will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O-Water Time.