Oh What A Time... - #163 Dynasties (Part 1)

Episode Date: February 22, 2026

This week we’re looking at some of the most famous families that history has to offer. We’ve got the House of Cromwell for you, plus the Astors and the incredible story of the Spencer family and their slow centuries-long rise to power.Elsewhere, we’re talking about the demise of Antiques Roadshow now Hugh Scully has effectively been replaced by Chat GPT. If you’ve got anything to add on this or anything else, you know what to do: [e-mail] from now on Part 1 is released on Monday and Part 2 on Wednesday - but if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, Whatter Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else, add free, plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets, and access to the Oh Watertime Group chat. Plus, if you become an Oh Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate

where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash oh, watertime. Oh, and welcome to Oh, what a time. It's a history podcast. I had quite a historic weekend this last weekend. I got the mother-in-law's antiques down, and I put them into chat GPT, and I got good valuations. Did you?

It was basically like Antiques Road Show, Do It Yourself with AI. Wow. I mean, sadly, sadly, you've just ended Antiques Roadshow. If the commissioners listen to this, they're like, oh, okay, well, that's another pointless show. Get rid of them. Will they redo the theme tune so it's now really beepy, and beauty noises? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like a dial-up mode? Exactly, yeah. That's quite a good idea, actually. Yeah. I have got a crucial question here, which is, was she aware that you were taking her stuff down and valuing it? Because if she wasn't, this is slightly shifty behaviour. Got one eye on the will.

Exactly. Chris, what are you doing with all my gold? She had an old copper pot on the kitchen. that she'd bought for like 95 pounds in the 80s, which was quite a lot of money. And she was like, I wonder how much that's worth the weather we were ripped off. And according to Chachy-Pittee,

it was a genuine Georgian copper pot. And Chachy-Ptee could pick up on the fact it had been mended. And it gave a quotation of a price. It was worth about 200, 300-300-pound now. Okay, well, Fiona Bruce is out of the job. She's out of the job. She's redundant. It's just had its 48th series.

And that's it. It's been going since 1979. Incredibly posh men that were sort of bright cravats. They're all out of work. Handkerchief thing in their pocket. They've got. Bye, guys. Do you know what as well?

I fell into that Antics Roadshow groove of going, what do you think it's worth? Doesn't chat GPT to some extent, though, in AI, although I'm going to show my absolute lack of knowledge here, in some way tell you what you want to hear? It tries to make, yeah, exactly. It's not looking to flatten your optimism. Do you think they were doing that on Antiques Road Show?

But I think Antiques Road Show probably is more sort of brutal. My understanding is it's trying to be sort of supportive, so you use it more. So it's going to tell you this copper pot is worth loads. It's probably worth two feet. Everything is worth 5,000 pounds for insurance purposes only. I absolutely loved a show, which don't know if it exists anymore, cash in the attic. Oh, yes. That was great.

Where someone would have like a teddy bear or they'd go, oh yeah, I got that as a child. Oh, that's so precious. So great to have it again. And then they go, you can get 48 quid for that. And they're like, done, fine. Not yet, okay, credit is getting sorted. It's because I remember who Scully is the presenter of Antiques Roadshow and is Fiona Brousner. Michael Asple did it for eight years. I don't remember the Asper years.

Here's a good question. You're going on tomorrow. What object from your house are you taking on with you? Great. Great. What are you taking? My signed West Ham United 2023 conference league shirt

for insurance purposes only. Okay. Is that actually like a match worn one? No, it's signed by the entire squad. That's still pretty good. You're relying on hitting a West Ham purchaser there, aren't you? It's not sort of a broad thing. Okay, it's not bad.

What about you, Elle? For some reason, in my study, the room where I record the majority of my podcasts, there's just a long bit of copper pipe. I don't know why it is Why it's there Well loose Yeah I know it just marks the wall

It's really marked the wall I certainly didn't buy it The kids are not bought it It must be a z But I don't know what it's doing there And so I don't know Maybe it's Georgian and is worth of fortune But

I mean I'm looking at it right now It's got a yellow sticker on it That makes it look like it was bought from wicks Or something or the range So I don't think it's an antique But I would love I would love some answers I know I'm going with the

the original Jewell-Rime trophy, which I have. Which people assume. I just went missing and no one knows where it is. Actually, it's on my sideboard. Yeah, yeah, of course. My clever granddad. Yeah, good on him. In 1966.

Good on him. I'd tell you what, as a historic object, the Jules Rimei Trophy, which was the World Cup trophy, did get nicked a lot, didn't it? Yeah, well, it was found in England. It was funded in spite next to Chipsy Hall, police station. But the original one wasn't, though. The original one was actually, I think that was never found again, I think. They found it after it got nicked in 66.

And then he got lost again when Brazil won it in 1970. Oh, did it? And that's when it went missing completely. Yes. It says, sadly, the original Jewelry made trophy was stolen again. Sorry. Shouldn't laugh. In Brazil in 1983 and then it was never recovered.

Oh, 8 to 3. Yeah, because when Pickles the dog phoned it, the FAA, I think they gave a mistake as a sort of reward. Yeah, yeah. Because it was found by a block. walking the dog. That's amazing. Your implication is that that's not a good enough reward for a dog. What do you suggest?

I just think it's such a whimsical thing from the Football Association. Ellis, it's the only currency dogs understand. I know. Can't give him a big check for 50 quid. How has it been stolen twice? It does feel the second time it's like, come on, guys. Yeah, yeah. Like you've had one job, which is to make sure.

this incredibly important trophy wasn't stolen again, and it has been stolen. The FA Cup was stolen. It was stolen from a shop window. Really? Yeah, yeah. Villar won it, and it was just up in some shop in Birmingham. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, it just got pinched. That is such a perfect story of British football in the past, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just up in a shop window somewhere. This might be a good moment to make a call out to listeners, because someone on our Our patron suggested, oh, what a crime. Oh, that's a good idea. A subset of Oh, What a Time episodes where we look at crimes and it feels like we're dancing around it already. If anyone's got any good crimes, any trophy that's been stolen or a great heist, if you've got any ideas, send them in for Oh, What a Crime.

That's a brilliant idea. Have you ever been a victim of crime? Yes. Right. What was yours? I got mugged by some young lads. Yeah, a lot of fun. How did that go?

Bizarrely, and I never ever thought this would happen, I ended up fighting with them. Wow. Did you? What? So unliked. Lad's plural as well. Four of them, yeah. Four!

Yeah, I turned into Batman, which no one expected. Quite a bad Batman, though, because they got my bag. At what point did you decide I fancy these odds? Do you know what it was? I had my headphones in. Okay. And I was listening to music or something. And I was so...

The theme tune from Rock. I was so surprised that they said, give me a bag mate. And I went, no, of course not. What kind of negotiation is this? I just can't believe you fought four people off at once. No, neither can I. And I, that is...

Did you win? No, no, it's... Okay, you're outnumbered? No. I was desperate for a piss. And when he punched... I was... I was walking back from Mitt's house.

And I remember when he punched me, I thought if he had speaking, I'm going to piss myself. You'd have to point out, it's not you, it's not how hard you punch. I needed a wee anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought, oh God, this could end. I mean, I would never, ever, ever advise anyone to fight back. It was just a bizarre instinct, which I didn't think I had. Amazing.

What about you, Scull? I actually had, I used to drive when I was 18, an Austin Metro, which I bought for 50, pounds and one day the key drum. That culture is completely disappeared. Yeah, 50 quid. You cannot buy cars for 50 quid anymore. My first car was like 100 quid. One day the key barrel just fell out, right?

And so to start the car, I would affect, I'd have to hot wire it to start it. So all the wires were just expose all the time. Anyway, one morning I woke up and I was like, my car's not where I parked it. And I realized that someone's nicked my car. But get this. reported it to the police next night I get a phone call

the police are like we found your car it was outside my house they'd brought it back because it was such a bad car and when they brought it back I had a crook lock on the car

because you could just hot wire it to drive it they'd propped the crook up on the driver seat and put its seat belt on that's it was the friendliest car theft of ever heard

That is incredible. Our terrible car was stolen. I think I've told you about this outside our house. And it was like just an awful, really old, what was it? I don't know, the names of cars and fear or something. But when it was returned to us by the police, they also sent us the live footage of the police chase through Tomlin that he was involved in. So we saw our terrible, just awful car with the radio doesn't work,

the heater fan, only one of them were, it's just rubbish. And then suddenly it's in this sort of 80-mile-an-hour speed chase through Topham and London, all the sort of stuff. Really quite exciting, to be honest, yeah. When it was returned to us, there was a crack pipe in the footwell, which the police officer handed to Claire my wife and said, is this yours? She had to say, no, just to be clear, that's not my crack-pipe. I'm a mother of two, I work for the integers.

I don't find much time. That's my husband's crack pipe. Exactly. Arresting officer. That's a really good point, Chris. If you have any ideas for oh what a crime, do send them in. We will do... Make them fun ones. Absolutely.

And we will do oh, what a crime episodes in the future. And talking of correspondence, shall we kick off with a lovely email? Oh yes, please. So, you sent us some correspondence, have you? Well, let's take a look at you then. From one of my favourite people who gets in contact with this show. This is from Louise Rob, who kindly runs the O-Water-Time, No-Context, Instagram account. Do you want to explain what that is, Elle?

Oh, hello, Louise. Yeah. It's phrases that the three of us are out of context on the Instagram. And it's very funny because obviously if you remove the context, you just think, what the fuck are they talking about? This makes it look like we have no idea. We're not real historians. How are you doing this, Louise?

Louise has said, hello, it's your friendly neighbourhood, no context are here, making the leap to the email form. I think this must be her first email. Thank you for a wonderful live show last month. Oh, that's very kind. Thank you for coming. And there will be more in the future, Louise. Now, the reason Louise has got in contact is in relation to, oh, what a dinner party. Yes.

All right. Hit format point where we discuss if you could have a dinner party from the past, who you're inviting, what you're serving them, and how you're keeping things civil. Louise says on your newest feature Oh, what's a dinner party? Is there a chance you could amend the rules to six dinner guests For you Louise anything? If so, I would invite,

and this is such a good idea This is really good idea The six wives of Henry VIII Oh, that's a fantastic They would likely have some stories To get off their chest About their shared X And I would therefore serve them

Some juicy beef. If the rules are steadfast On having five guests I might leave out Anne of Cleves As she had the easiest time of it all Outliving the other wives And Henry so her beef will be the least juicy, I reckon.

And for ambience, I pop on the soundtrack to the hit musical Six. And if sharing of their Henry stories ever more thin, they can compare their various depictions on stage and screen about Anne Boleyn will be lauding it over the others because she got to be played by Natalie Portman. Keep up the excellent work, chaps, Louise. Thank you, Louise. That is such a good shout.

That's such a good idea. The amount of... Oh, did he do that with you as well? But Henry the 8th had such different phases to his life. Like an early wife might think that he was quite athletic towards the end. Yes. Did he eat 11 chickens every meal with you? No.

Yeah. Oh, did he do that with you as well? Yeah. Oh, you think that's bad. It is true, though. It gives you a shared common ground, which means that they're definitely all going to get on. Whereas if you're inviting random people from history,

you're trying to find what's the conversation point. Yeah. As the host of the dinner party, that could be quite awkward as you're trying to chuck things in. Yeah. Well, then you've got to turn it into a book club, haven't you? So you've got to have Humphrey Bogart Edward the Confessor

and Elizabeth Taylor you've got two actors two actors there I don't know bloody hell and you're like OK did you all read the book and did you all enjoy it?

Okay Edward the Confessor hasn't read it well that's great nice one Edward It's such a great point you do need some shared experience between your dinner guests

What does Jessica Reynes think of the book? She's a bit confused by she's confused by Ed with the confessor. Okay, she's annoyed he hasn't read it. Fair enough. It's true, though, because with this situation, as the host, you can just sort of kick back and enjoy it. I think this is one of the rare occasions where there's no stress. You can probably just say at the beginning, so you guys, might want to discuss Henry?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You can imagine that as a podcast? It'd be absolutely gripping. It'd be like get back, I'd watch all later, wasn't it? So much better than my dinner party where you got Graham Taylor and Genghis Khan sat next to you know nothing about Henry VIII despite the fact you keep chucking the subject

into the room, yeah. Such a good idea, Louise. I absolutely love that. Brilliant. If anyone else has any suggestions for who you'd have at your, oh, what a dinner party, we've actually had loads of emails on this already.

We'd love to hear them. I think this is something going to run and run and Louise has got us off on fine form there. Here's how you get in contact with the show. All right, you horrible luck. Here's how you. you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at ohwatertime.com

and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh What a Time pod. Now clear off. And also one way you can support the show and get bonus episodes, early release episodes, add free, a full access to the archive of bonus episodes is to join the O Watertime patron and many people already have. Some people are, oh, what a time, all timers. Where one of the benefits is we will read out your name

and try and figure out where in history you might have been. And gentlemen, this week we have for you, Hazel Robinson. Hazel Robinson seems like a very sort of kind person. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Hazel Robertson, like it lives on your street, he's friends with your auntie. No, she was the nunny of a great genius. Okay.

Einstein? I don't know who the genius is. But whenever the genius looks back at their childhood, they're always like, Hazel taught me that actually. Maybe quite cold parents, not I'm talking about for who she, the genius is mom and dad. Exactly, yeah, cold parents. But Hazel provided the love and support in their massive estately home.

And an introduction to physics. Mary Poppins meets Albert Einstein. Yeah, so Scottish Mary Poppins, yeah. Some Scottish Mary Poppins. genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hazel was the one who got the Scottish genius into whatever they're, whatever they're amazing at.

And the genius thanked her, but never paid it any extra. You're like, come on, mate. Died in absolute poverty. When the genius is claiming their Nobel Prize and going through their workings on a board, Hazel Romerton's looking at that board and going, wait a second, those are my work. Yes. That was my idea.

Yeah. I have to stop you there. When you win the Nobel Prize, you don't have to go up to the chalkboard and prove it. I don't know. That's a misunderstanding you have about the nature of the Nobel Prize. Do they not say before I give you this, show me your working? It's quite a funny idea. It's like, yeah, we're going to give it to Tom Cray.

So, Tom, let's see what you've got then. And the BAFTA writer of the year is Tom Crane. Come up here, write something then. Make us laugh. There's a laptop there. Off you go. Let's prove it. I only give you a scene.

It's set in space and the two characters are Spanish and they're twins and they don't know it. Yeah, they've got loads of Luzziol. Go. Clock sticking. We're going to have to retract the award. Do you want the master or not, Tom? Prove it.

It's not funny. You can the funny. Times are. No. We're giving it to Trump. So I love that. Hazer Robinson, that's perfect. I think the nanny to the child genius

with cold parents, Hazel Robinson is your person. There you go. And if you want to have your name speculated upon, you can support the show and here's how. Hello again,

you horrible lot. Enjoying the show. Well, why not show the love by becoming a Patreon supported today? For a mere handful of farthings, you can get ad-free shows, two bonus subscriber episodes

each month, access to all the past bonus Epps, first dibs on live tickets and even help decide what subjects the boys cover next. Your support makes everything possible, so sign up today at patreon.com slash oh what's the time or oh what's the time.com. What are you waiting for? Stop dawdling!

Well, this week, this episode is all about dynasty. And later in the episode, I'll be telling you about the famous family known as the Astas. I'm going to be telling you about the dynasty, the British dynasty, that really has achieved it all. It's mind-blowing with success from this family, from this dynasty. And I'm going to start us off by talking about a dynasty or a political family, everyone will have heard of the Cromwells. Now, every once in a while, someone will tell you that so-and-so is the descendant,

of some other politician, especially when the surnums are different, and the connections aren't immediately obvious. It can be quite surprising. So, for instance, Peter Mandelson, who's in the news at the moment, he's the grandson. To put it lightly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the grandson of Herbert Morrison, who was the Labour Party deputy leader and was in Clemente's cabinet. Wow, I never did that. Now I did know that, because of the kind of guy, I am. What I didn't know is that,

Clement Attlee's grandson is a Tory member of the House of Lords. Wow. Wow. Which I didn't realise. Anyway, so these political dynasties emerged because of the necessary accumulation of power to rise to the top of the greasy pole is very difficult to give away. So power tends to pass from one generation to the next. Obviously, sometimes expanding, sometimes contracting. But always, these people often have an eye on keeping the family in the upper echelons of society.

So this is an old habit. but obviously it's got to start with someone. So in the 16th and 17th century in England, there were few families, apart from the most senior sort of aristocrats who could lay claim to sort of a proper dynasty, you know, sort of, you know, proper dynastic fame. So because the referendum of court,

also because the Reformation, you were shifting religious hands from Protestant to Catholic and back again, it made surviving on your own hard enough, let alone trying to sort of, sort of trying to establish any multi-generational power and status. But one exception is the Cromwells. Right.

Now, I knew that Thomas Cromwell and Oliver Cromwell were related. I didn't realize, I thought they were actually more closely related than they are. So Oliver Cromwell was the great, great, great, grand nephew of Thomas Cromwell. Right. But there's more to this story that I didn't realize that I'm quite surprised I didn't know, because it's very, very interesting. But can I ask? they're about 150 years apart those two individuals.

Isn't everyone related? Yeah. Because the UK's probably got like 20 people in it. Not over 150 years, I think. Oh, okay. All right. So he's impressive. The Cromwells are one of those,

it's families that I should know more about, but I don't. It's like, it's one of those things I'm aware that I should have far more of a knowledge base. It's the same as like, for instance, what wind is, is another one. I'm not entirely sure what wind is. I feel it, but I don't really.

know what it is, and I should take the time to look it up. You've got the same attitude to wind that people had like 20,000 years ago. Yeah. Exactly. Except that you didn't have Wikipedia. It'll take you five minutes. Do you have a Wikipedia or anything? Yeah, I Google things.

I just haven't googled what wind is yet. Yeah. I mainly Google footballers from the 90s, really. Let's find out what they're doing now. How curious are you, Tom? No, I am curious. I love food. I like to learn about new cuisines.

I like music. I'm not as passionate about wind. So I have not been loaded up yet. Or the Cromwells, apparently. Or the Cromwell. You only have so many hours in a day, don't you? Yeah. I once printed out some stuff about wind, but it blew away.

Hey, it's a bit of funny guy. You've got a laugh. It's not a legal laugh, is it? That's good stuff. The Bafter is back on the shelf. To do that under such pressure. Now, one exception, as I suppose, the Cromwell, family, symbolised, of course, by Henry the 8th's chief minister, we've already mentioned

Henry the 8th's today, his chief minister, Thomas, and by the Lord Protector himself, Oliver. Now, both men, both Thomas and Oliver, oversaw wholesale transformation of English and actually British society. So if you're looking at the dynastic game, they were the best players at this point, the Cromwells. So there's been a Cromwell of North as long ago as the 12th century when the family's common ancestor, John, was made a baron in 1308. But the truest rise to power came under the two does in the 16th century when Thomas Cromwell, the tradesman's son from Putney, which was then in Surrey, but is now, of course, part of London,

rose to the very pinnacle of politics. So Thomas's grandfather had moved south from Nottinghamshire to run a mill and the family business, and its initial wealth was linked to the wool trade. You had wool millionaires then? Really? Wow. Is wool still a big...

Well, it's this pre-central heating and all these sort of stuff. So I can see how wool would be very important. I just can't name any wool magnets anyway. But when I get to my section about the Astas, the whole dynasty is built on beaver pelts. Beaver pelts. Yeah. So it's like, I think it was just impossible to stay warm back then.

So anything towards that goal meant you were basically Jeff Bezos. Well, the Lord Chancellor used to sit on a wool. I think they still do, don't they, to symbolise the importance of the wool trade to the economy in the Middle Ages. That's interesting. There's a wool sack in Parliament. It's interesting what you're saying about how, you know, maintaining the prestige and power of a family. Do you think it was harder to change your situation back then if you weren't from money?

Because like now, there's opportunities to you might come up with an idea, start a small company at a blue. But really, back then, if you were just someone who worked in a rural, community. What are your options really? If you're not from that well, you're so cut out, aren't you? But what would happen? Until bizarrely recently, you just say, oh, I'm good. She's going to walk to London and see what happens. Oh, far's London? It's about 400 miles away. It's a great question. I'd love a learned listener to provide some insight here. Do you think, we talk a lot about inequality now, but do you think if you went a thousand years ago, inequality would be actually much bigger than today

because you're going to have lords in castles and serfs people wandering around the land. We should get Donald to write an episode on this because that is good stuff. That'd be good. I don't know enough. So Thomas's grandfather, as I said, moved south from Nottinghamshire. Then his dad, Walter, added the sale of beer to his portfolio, but, and we've discussed this in the past,

he was often in trouble for watering it down. He was selling understrength booze. But he was of, sufficient standing to hold public office as a constable and to set of various jewellies. So he even married his eldest daughter into the legal profession. Now then, this is where it gets very interesting to meet. Catherine Cromwell,

Thomas' sister, was married to Morgan, up William, a Cardiff-born son of a Welsh lawyer. Wales! Wales! Wales! So Morgan was sent to London, settled in Putney, entered the beer trade, and this was how he came into contact with the Cromwells. As he moved through the circus of the London Welsh, I'm doing that now, of course. I'm the big dog.

his name is anglicise so that Catherine Cromwell became Catherine Williams and their son Richard had a son called Henry, who turned had a son called Robert who in turn had a son called Oliver. But imagine that. Because why don't we know him, you know,

Oliver Cromwell, as Oliver Williams? It doesn't sound, you know, I hate to say, it doesn't sound as good, is it? Ollie Williams, Lord Protector of the Commonwealth, sounds like he plays for a Rachel rugby team. So, Ollie Williams signing the death warrant for King Charles I'll get Ollie to do it Ollie'll sign it, Ollie doesn't give a shit

in his sort of, in his Pee short, muddy knees. Yeah, it would be so different if Ollie Williams, who plays at Inside Centre for the Ospreys was actually Lord Protector of the Commonwealth. It's funny, isn't it? I do wonder what role names play in history because like Arthur Wellesley feels like the Duke of Wellington.

Ollie Williams is not, the name isn't going to command the respect necessary. Not at all. Also, I can only imagine, Chris, that your forefathers are like sort of murderers or something, a skull. What an amazing name that is. I'm going to state this statement now. Britain, well, England will never have a prime minister called Trevor. It will never happen. No, there's not going to be a Prime Minister Gary, I don't think, because the name is dying out.

Yeah, Keith. It's on the scrap hate. I don't see a Susan either for some reason. I'm not feeling a Susan. Well, I don't know. We've, Liz and Teresa fairly normal names. Maybe it's more... And Margaret.

Okay, maybe it's more pronounced with both of them, possibly. Yeah. I mean, I just cannot imagine Keith at Davos. Prime Minister Keith. Man of the people. Yeah, getting up at NATO. G-Ping and Keith at the... So the reason it was Oliver Cromwell and not Ollie Williams

is all to do with power and dynastic influence. So Thomas Cromwell entered the service of Cardinal Walsy, the chief advisor to Henry VIII. And they helped Cromwell rise the ranks of society. So when he in turn became chief advisor to the king, that opened doors to the rest of the Cromwell family. So there's Thomas' own son, Gregory, who ended up married to Jane Seymour's sister Elizabeth.

And so as uncle in awe to the future Queen Elizabeth at first. And then there was the Williams branch who'd entered court as more minor servants and assistants. But... Okay. Where did Morgan at William? That's a proper Welsh name. And Robert App Morgan.

There's syllables in there that I don't even understand. Yeah. Which is how I judge a good Welsh name. Well, App is the old... It means son of. So it went out of fashion for a few hundred years. So I would be a Wainab Eirville. Ah, a lot of...

But it went out... It's actually come back in now amongst middle-class Welsh speakers. It's quite fashionable. to do that. So your surname was your father's first name. Ah, haven't you? So Morgan-Ap William and Robert and Morgan,

it didn't do them any good to have such Welsh names. Right. So they were quietly advised. Apparently, some say, by Henry VIII himself to adopt a more English style of address. It's funny, funny idea. Henry 8th, taking these two Welsh boys over

and going, listen, lads, I don't mind it. I think it's fine. I like actually, but you know what the bloody English are black classes are like. So I would probably call yourself something else. If Henry the Eighth is telling you to change your name, I think you change your name, don't you really? Yeah, definitely. I'm not fighting my corner there. And he can literally choose whatever it is.

I mean, he's already beheaded his wife. You're like, I need to listen to what this guy's seeing. So they thought, okay, well, let's go with Williams to begin with, as opposed to App William, which means son of William. but Williams was too common as surname, too low in the pecking order and we're Thomas Cromwell on the rise they thought, well, why don't we re-adopt the maternal surname instead? Right.

So Robert ended up alias Cromwell around 1530 and over the time the alias was dropped. So we started off as Robert Aelius Cromwell, but that was dropped. And so Olly Williams was born in 1599, became Oliver Cromwell instead. Interesting. So as Shakespeare, you know, said, what is in a name? Well, in this case, everything. Yeah.

It's because no one really remembers. And I didn't know this, that Oliver Cromwell is part Welsh. Wow. So that side of things has been completely disguised by the Cromwell surname. That's so interesting. But that's the truth, yes. So unfortunately, the Cromwell's domestic politics, tends not to have any life left once you've risen to the top.

So Oliver's son Richard, who reluctantly followed his father as Lord Protector at the end of the 1650s. That's a funny idea, isn't it? Oh, go on then I'll be Lord Protector, just to keep Dad happy. Oh, God. Oh, I don't want to have the same job as Dad. It's just not look so boring. Yeah. I don't want to, you know, my dad was a quantity surveyor.

I don't want to be a quantity surveyor. Oh, I don't want to be a Lord Protector. So he gave up power when he went into a 20-year-old in France. Then he returned to England and fell into obscurities. The crown was restored to his former glory. So at his death, aged 85 in 1712, he'd live longer than any ruler, monarch or otherwise in British history. So only Queen Elizabeth I exceeded his lifespan. So Thomas Cromwell's direct male lineage ended in the 1680s,

by then transferred to an aristocratic title in the north of Ireland, the earldom of Ard Glass, and Oliver Cromwell's direct male lineage was extinguished in the 1820s. But stop the press because you'll probably, the two of you probably know this, because I certainly know this. It was a very famous TV show a couple years ago. The Cromwell dynasty does have,

one or two prominent descendants alive even today. Yes, your friend of mine, Danny Dyer. Thomas Cromwell is Danny Dyer's 15th great-grandfather. That's amazing. I didn't realize who it was. I knew he had some links. Yeah, it was on who do you think you are? I mean, it's such a funny episode when he discovers that he's really directly related to Thomas Cromwell.

Yes, who took his ancestry by Cromwell, St. Gregory. and that is how you get from Spanish Shenishan in Cardiff to the Queen Vic by Thomas and Oliver Cromwell. Amazing. It's mind-blown that you didn't know that as well. I've never been told that. Because it's such a, the profile historically.

I think a lot of people don't realise because... Yeah, fascinating. They effectively had to change their identities when they started moving and sort of the higher echelons of London society. It's funny with Cromwell though, Because I don't think, would the Welsh be proud of the association with Cromwell? Probably, it feels like a very English character.

Would you want to claim any part of him anyway? But, well, I mean, he bummed Christmas. From a PR perspective. He's not a laugh. Yeah, I think the optics are bad. But, I mean, amazing influence on, you know, British history, Oliver Cromwell. Fascinating. And we tend to celebrate, you know, our successes.

But I guess that's the thing about Cromwell He wouldn't want the celebrations He didn't even like Christmas Yeah yeah A public holiday in his honour isn't going to happen No Fromwell wouldn't like any fuss No

He did overthrow a monarchy though I mean he did get stuff done It's happened once in the history of the United Kingdom Well I suppose Yeah He led an awful campaign in Ireland So yes But still I mean

Historically tremendously important person. All right, that's the end of part one. Now this week, from this week onwards, part two will be released on Wednesdays. But if you want to get part two right now, you can do that. You can go to patreon.com forward

slash oh, what a time, where this full episode is available ad free, plus all our bonus episodes are there two every month, including the full archive, ad free listing, all that good stuff. And in part two, I will be telling you all about the famous Aster dynasty. And I'm going to be telling you about the dynasty that achieved it all. A dynasty that includes Diana, the Princess of Wales, Winston Churchill, Dukes of Marlborough.

I could go on. Incredible. Oh, amazing. What is it? What This Dynasty achieved. You can get part two right now. You can go to patreon.com forward slash Oh, What a Time. Otherwise, we'll see you on Wednesday for part two. Bye-bye. Oh, What a Time is now on Patreon.

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