Oh What A Time... - #171 First Ladies of the United States and has there already been a female US President? (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week we’re looking at 3x US First Ladies and their extraordinary lives: we have Louisa Adams (1775-1852), the extensively travelled Lou Hoover (1874-1944) and the powerful Edith Wilson (1872-1961).And this week we’re asking: has there ever been an easier job than the policeman with a clipboard ensuring people cross a job properly? If you’ve got anything for us, do send it in: [e-mail] from now on Part 1 is released on Monday and Part 2 on Wednesday - but if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, Whatter Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime.

This is part two of our episodes on the First Ladies of the US President. But before we get into that, let's give you a little taste of the Patreon episodes we've got, which is the bonus content. If you're a Patreon, we do extra episodes on things that tickle our fancy off and books that we've read or maybe documentaries that we've watched. We've got other ideas coming up as well, clip ideas. Now, I've just read Mark Mazzar's Dark Continent, which is an amazing history of Europe in the 20s.

essentially, so it's here a little bit of that. My ex went to Oxford, and I think there is a thing. Oxford and Cambridge, you are taught to read in a particular way. Yes, yeah, I remember that. You read down the middle of the page and you garner, you infer from the centre of the sentences what the rest is. The mind can fill in the gaps, basically. I would stay with you when you were going out with your ex,

and she could read far from the mudding crowd in about half an hour. And it really was something. thing to see. And Ellis and I would sit there and watch, wouldn't we? Yeah, we'd watch somebody read a book really quickly and be like, bloody hell. But it is remarkable. It's a bit like, remember that movie Short Circuit? Remember that with that robot that could really flick through the book really quickly? Yeah, yeah, input, input, input. I had to do that once, right? It was, once I had to interview Neville Salthor about his mental health book, and the interview was at one, and I didn't get the book till nine. I was able, I was like, I'm just going to flick through it like

short circuit and get the gist of every page. And I was able to basically read it. Can I say something, Chris, that's the most attractive I've ever found you. Well, wait till we get the new cameras now. That was so sexy. You can read Never Southurst's book in a morning. I'm in. I could speed read it.

It wasn't even a warning. I read it in like an hour and a half, just like flicking through. What's the gist of every page? What's he trying to say? It was amazing, actually. shut stopping, shot stopping, being good on crosses. Does it sound like you're trying to impress Elle on a date now? And you have?

Yeah, so I read it like an hour and a half. Neville South, it wasn't a problem, yeah. Yeah, you've charmed... If we were on that Channel 4 programme first dates, I would just look to the camera and say, he's charmed me. I can't believe it. How many years are we into this podcast?

That's the first time I've ever shared that I've sped read Neville Southwell's mental health book. I am going to see him again. in that bit afterwards against the red wall It's just snogging. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There you can get that full episode if you head over to patreon.com

4.0.0.0.0. Where bonus episodes coming up very soon will include video clip episodes trawling the BBC archives and many other filmic archives for great clips from yesterday year. That episode... The three most handsome history podcasts in...

Well, yeah. In history. We're good-looking guys, okay? Fine. Explore the video medium. Head over to patron.com. Ford slash, oh, what a time to sign up. But anyway, let's get on with the show.

This is part two of First Ladies of the United States. And Elle, the floor is yours. So I am going to be talking about Louisa Adams, 1775 to 1852. Now, until the arrival of Melania Trump to the White House in 2017, only one First Lady of the United States was not an American by birth, Louisa Adams.

The London-born spouse of John Quincy Adams, you what, mate, First Lady in the American Prisoner, I'll give it a go. I mean, I've never done enough a night out before in my... You know, not what I mean, I'll give it a go. Is how I imagine she talked about it. Louisa was the daughter of an American merchant, Joshua Johnson, and Catherine Neuth,

who was an English woman, probably from London. So the Johnson's themselves, prominent members of colonial and revolutionary America, and particularly Maryland, Maryland, society. They were sort of high society people. So Joshua's brother Thomas was a member. of the First Continental Congress in 1774, later served as governor of Maryland

and was an associate justice of the Supreme Court from 1791 to 1793. I was nominated for that role by George Washington himself, so, let's face it, they're high achievers. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure on the family, I'd imagine. So Louisa spent her earliest years in London, so she'd have sounded like Criskell,

but the outbreak of the American War of Independence led the family's deep advance since 1778. So for the next five years, they lived in Nantes. Louisa quickly became fluent in French. The American Revolution, that was over by mid-7080s. So the Johnson's then returned to England. So in 1790, Joshua was appointed to a diplomatic post as American Consult in Britain. So this put the family house in Tower Hill on the map for visiting dignitaries.

And among them was John Quincy Adams, the son of America's second president, John Adams. So John Quincy, he fancy them. became an armoured. They began, courting part of the secret. Here we go. Now we get to the juicy stuff. Yeah. Now, by 1796, they were engaged to be married.

It proved to be quite a difficult engagement because Louisa's English citizenship was not welcomed by the Adams' who regarded the idea as an absolute anathema. Right. So it wasn't until July 1797 that John Quincy and Louisa finally did marry. So they were soon on the road.

John Quincy was named a minister plenty of potentially to Prussia and he and Louisa moved to Berlin at the end of the year. So a bit like Lou Hoover, just on the move all the time, multilingual, move into different places, at a time where obviously travels much harder. So Louisa seems to have enjoyed her time in the Prussian capital. She developed a friendship with the king and the queen.

See, I don't think I would enjoy that. I think if my wife is working abroad and I've got to hang out with their king and queen, I think I find that quite full on. Yeah Yeah Because I imagine it's quite They're quite formal

Doesn't sound like a laugh Is it? Yeah yeah I'm not imagining this is sort of You know Especially in Prussia It feels that there'll be a certain A degree of performance

And regalia around Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah So she fitted in well With the Prussian aristocracy So in April 801

She gave birth The couple's eldest son George Washington Adams Which was a very sad story brought to a premature end. So he was to have a brief political career at the end of the 1820s, but then he was an alcoholic and is believed to have taken his own life. So his death plunged Louise into a deep depression. So shortly after George Washington Adams's birth, John Quincy was recalled to the US by the new president, Thomas Jefferson,

who would of course beat John Quincy's dad in the general election the previous November. So the family didn't go abroad again until 1809 when John Quincy accepted the role of Minister plenty of potentially to the Russian court of Alexander I, first, based in St. Petersburg. So they're off again. So this time they're off to Russia. So together and at times apart, John Quincy and Louisa spent the next six years

living in Russia, leaving only in 1815. So then there was a two-year diplomatic mission to London, followed by the family's return to America in 1817. Now this is interesting because obviously she's traveling so much. So it was during this period of travel that she began to write. Right. So although it was published posthumously, Louisa later responded to the perilous 40-day 2,000 mile journey from St. Petersburg to Paris, accompanied by a young son.

Wow. Wow. A memoir she called narrative of a journey from Russia to France, 1815. Now, we've all had tricky journeys with kids. I've never had a tricky journey. A journey so tricky, I've thought, I've got to publish a book about this. It was an absolute nightmare at least two to London Bridge. You never read my book about my trip to Alacanty, Ryanair two easters ago

nightmare 40 days is too long oh yeah with a young kid as well I think you have to make that something you can stomach by breaking it up into a number of shorter journeys yeah I don't know you can hit that in one go can you know access to pre what if what if Charles is fussy I'm seeing that as 40 one day journeys broken up by two day breaks between each leg as well

oh it's stressful next time you're like queuing up at an airport security at five in the morning. Just think about the people who used to take six months to get to Australia. But you say that, Tom, breaking up the journey. She had to get to Paris and then to London before Napoleon's forces took control. As they wait to the emperor's triumphant but ultimately short-lived return from exiles. So she's doing it

in a rush. Which is another thing we don't have to deal with as parents. I'm never going, come on guys, get into the car. Napoleon's forces are about to take control. We need to get this movie. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot about the yo-yo. so you'll have to eat something else. So it was a cross-run thing.

So leaving St. Petersburg on her 40th birthday. She evaded, bandits, threatening soldiers, civilian populations hostile to the site of her Russian-made carriage and bad servants. That's the one I could caught with the best of it. And all of it through the snows of winter. So in Berlin, she learnt about the French occupation

from her old friends at the Prussian court. So once in America, Louisa found herself bored by the upper echelons of society. So she was among the most widely traveled women of her generation anywhere in the world. Indeed, the most cosmopolitan and widely travel flautus of the entire 19th century. So it was difficult for her to settle

and to be a dutiful wife. So her daughter be the dutiful wife. So her acumen and ability were worth more than that because you've got to be, certainly in the modern era, you've got to be in a kind of hostess for the white house, if you're the first lady. So as John Quincy began to Consider a presidential run

She warned him that a man who is ambitious to become president Must make his wife visit The ladies of the members of Congress first Otherwise he's totally inefficient to fill so high in office In other words what she was telling was politics Wasn't just a man's game Right So she was never a politician in the elected sense

But she turned her obvious skills to writing So in addition to the Russian memoir She wrote at least two Albeit unpublished volumes of autobiography entitled Record of a Life, 1825. I think it's quite an arrogant title. You've got to put your name in there. If I'm reading, I don't know,

Robbie Savage's autobiography. You want to know it's Robbie Savage, don't you? I feel like people only started really caring about the titles of autobiographies in the last 10 years. Up until that, it was quite basic. Yeah, yeah. But it's that now because there's a billion autobiography

is published every year, so you have to be more nuanced and clever about your tidal. Yeah. Whereas previously it would just be, you know, huge... Ian Botham, my story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but his first one was called Don't Tell Caff, wasn't it?

Which was the name of his wife. Have I told you the story that I was reading, like, probably last summer I sat down and started reading Ian Botham's autobiography and then I realised I'd already read it. I read a great... Autopography this year by a man called Keith McAnally. You heard of him? He's a restaurateur.

And the title of it, I love this title, is I regret almost everything. Isn't that a great title for an autobiography? Well, she wrote another one called Adventures of a Nobody. Okay. So she kept a diary, read widely in French and translated creative material into English for her own interest and the use of others. She wrote a large quantity of poetry in English and in French and even stage plays of her own. Amazing. This is a little flavour of the opening lines.

This is a place you're up called To the Raven. Thou dreary, melancholy thing. This is from the Irish emigrant's lament. Oh, Erin, fair isle of my fondest regret. This is from Ode on the 50th of the 4th of July. Hark, tis the trumpet's loudest blast. And then who viewed my face with fond of delight of my husband from 1823 and so on? So they were written.

She was writing at the White House, and they were often thinly veiled portraits of her. life. So one of them she wrote was called the Metropolitan Collideroscope and it detailed a harsh politician on his long-suffering wife, so it does make you wonder where she got the inspiration for that from. So she stands out among the early

first ladies because she was more than any of them ahead of her time. So in a different settings, she would have taken the literary world by storm probably, joining names like Jane Austen or Mary Shelley. She lived until 1852, survived her husband by four years, but isn't a particularly well-known person

but an amazingly talented woman. Yeah. What a fascinating person. Melania who's recently released a movie, isn't she? Yeah, she's interesting. Which about one person went to see, and that was Melania. But genuinely, I think it was like one ticket was sold at Cardiff View or some of that, and it had like, yeah, it was Donald Trump desperately trying to reshape it as a success in the box office. The film Melania is to film what the song Baker Street is to jazz. It's a fair point. I really like the title of the one. Is it Confessions of a Nobody?

That's quite sort of modern that. It sounds like it's almost like Diary of a Wimpy Kid sort of feel. Yeah, yeah. Confessions of a nobody. Adventures of a nobody. Yeah, that feels like quite a modern title for a book that. Yeah, I like it as well. For like, you know, it would be maybe someone who didn't quite make it as a rock star

or something like that maybe. Yes, yeah. That's a good point. It's sort of about supporting the foods and all this sort of stuff. Anyway, there you go. Another fascinating person. Okay, let me tell you about Edith Wilson.

So every US election cycle, the question is asked, when will the United States elect its first female president? We've come close a couple of time. Kamala Harris as vice president in 2020. So at least the vice president barrier has been broken, but the top job, the president remains formerly at least an all-male club, except more than a century ago,

a woman effectively ran the United States without ever being elected to office. And her name was Edith Wilson. Her story begins as Edith Bowling in 1872 in Virginia. She was born into what was known as the Southern Planter Elite, this old American family with deep roots. Edith could even claim, as many in Virginia society did, descent from Pocahontas. But that status came with baggage, and that baggage was the fact the bollings were slaveholders and firm supporters of the Confederacy during the Civil War.

And this was a world shaped by hierarchy tradition and rigid expectations, especially for women. And Edith's education reflected that. Unlike her brothers, she was not given a full academic upbringing. She learned basic literacy, arithmetic and domestic skills, basically enough to run a household, but not enough to enter professional life. And that was her expectation. She had quite a sad life, really.

In 1896, up until she meets Woodrow Wilson, in 1896 she marries Norman Gault, a successful jeweller in Washington, D.C., moves into the capital. They attempt to start a family. But tragedy intervenes. In 1903, Edith gave birth to a son who died shortly afterwards. and the complications from that birth left her unable to have more children. And then five years later in 1908, her husband, Norman Galt, died suddenly.

So in her mid-30s, Edith was widowed, childless and financially responsible for herself, a situation that forced her into a more independent role than her upbringing had prepared her for. And everything then changes in 1915, because that year, Edith meets Woodrow Wilson, the sitting president of the United States who had recently lost his first first. wife, Ellen Wilson. So there's controversy because the relationship moved very, very quickly within months. Woodrow Wilson proposed and the two were married in December 1915. The speed of this match sparked rumours and gossip, including wild accusations that the

pair had somehow conspired in Ellen's death. There was no truth to it, no truth to it. But politically it was awkward timing and there was a sense of the United States that this was an incredibly rushed thing. It's not an ideal rumour to be. knocking around at the beginning of your relationship, is it? No, not a great entry. To keep things buoyant.

To the first lady of the United, suspected murderer. Yeah. So then, you know, this is 1917. So the United States enter the First World War. Edith Wilson's role as First Lady, therefore took on a very different character. This was not a period for lavish entertaining

or social spectacle. Instead, Edith threw herself into war work. She raised funds for the American Red Cross, supported relief efforts and accompanied her husband on diplomatic missions. At the Versailles peace negotiations, she was not a background figure. She was present, visible, engaged. So for perhaps the first time, the First Lady was acting not just as a hostess, but as a political and diplomatic partner.

So, a big turning point. And there is another huge turning point. And it comes in October 1919, when Woodrow Wilson suffers a massive stroke. It left him partially paralyzed and severely incapacitated. In practical terms, he could no longer perform the duties of the presidency. And this created a constitutional crisis because there was no clear mechanism at the time for transferring power to the vice president in such circumstances. Interesting. You'd think they would, I mean, considering America's history with...

Well, I suppose it's when it's surviving president, isn't it? That's the crucial thing when the person no longer... You'd had Lincoln, but obviously he'd die, but there was no mechanism at the time. That feels remarkable to me. So, Edith stepped in. Edith later described her role modestly, calling it a kind of stewardship.

This is what she wrote in her memoir. I never made a single decision regarding the disposition of public affairs. However, history tells us that reality was more complicated. She was Sam Allardyce. Sam Allerdice. I'd say she's more director of football. pulling the strings

because either effectively controls all access to the president and all access not just face to face every document, every request every piece of correspondence that was passed to the president went through her hands

she decided what Wilson would see when he would see it or whether it reached him at all so if you wanted to speak to the president of the United States you had to go through Edith Wilson. In effect, she became a gatekeeper of presidential power,

filtering information, managing decisions and controlling the flow of government. And he was definitely still alive. We're not looking at a weekend at Bernie's type situation here because it feels a bit like, you know, everything has to, yeah, you can see him through the window. There he is. Look, there you can see him, sat at his desk.

Yeah. Yeah, he's just having a sleep. Yeah, Woodrow says no. Yeah. Do you want to ask him? No. Yeah. This arrangement, now obviously this arrangement,

didn't sit well with everyone. The Secretary of State, Robert Lansing, grew increasingly concerned that the government was operating without proper presidential oversight. He began holding cabinet meetings independently, trying to keep things moving. But Edith saw this as a direct challenge. So she forced the issue presenting Wilson with a stark choice. Either Lansing goes or I go. So, who survives, guys? Is it the Secretary of State or is it Woodrow Wilson? Wilson's wife. I'm guessing it's Woodrow Wilson's wife. I mean, she's clearly a strong, spirited person.

That's what I think. Lansing was dismissed, the Secretary of State, when. And historians look at this and say, this is a clear demonstration of where the power really lied. But this is an interesting point, because at the moment, Heath Wilson is controlling Woodrow Wilson, this is all happening at a really critical moment

because Wilson was attempting to secure American support for the Treaty of Versailles and the creation of the League of Nations. But his ability to campaign, negotiate and persuade was severely limited by his illness and by Edith's control over access to him. And historians debate the consequences of this because had Wilson been fully active, might the United States have joined the League of Nations,

might the fragile peace settlement after the First World War of Hell? Might the path to the Second World War have been completely different? Bloody hell, I never thought. of that. So Edith Wilson is controlling him and in a way does that, the circumstances of that lead to the Second World War, it's impossible to know for certain, but certainly there are questions about it. Woodrow Wilson was to die in 1924 and we get another great autobiography title here. After his

death, Edith largely withdrew from public life, reemerging only occasionally. Most notably, with a publication of her memoir in 1938 called My Memoir. Phoning it in. It does a job. I mean, you're not left with any confusion as to what it is. No, you definitely know what it is. Yeah, yeah. What should we call your memoir? I just call it My Memoir.

Yeah. But, you know, if I'm going into Waterstones and I'm looking for her book, I'm finding it quite quickly. Edith lived a long life dying in 1961. She attended the inauguration of JFK, which is... It's astonishing. Give me no. Woodrow Wilson dying in 924 and then all those years later. Yeah, so a very, very long life. So the big question, was she the first female president? Well, it depends how you define the role. She was never elected. She never had official office. She could not legally make decisions in her own name. But for a crucial period in world history between 1919 and 1921,

she controlled the access to the president, filtered the information, influenced the outcomes and effectively managed the executive branch. Wow. In a system built for men and rigidly so, she found a way to operate at the very centre of power, not by title, but by control. And that is why, when people ask who might be the first woman to run the United States, there is a quiet, slightly uncomfortable historical answer. It may already have happened.

And that is the story of Edith Wilson. And if you want to know more about the live story of Edith Wilson, may I recommend her book, My Memoir. And you didn't have to read that either, because you remembered it because it's an easy, simple title to remember. Actually genius in a way. There's not many jobs

where if the partner is ill, you just have to step in and do it instead. For example, my wife does very complicated stuff at the NHS. Thank goodness. It's not a situation where she's ill and I'm having to talk to 400 doctors about. I like seeing the minutes of the meeting.

Yeah, exactly. What would you do with her if you? if Claire jumped on the podcast. It was like, sorry, Tom's incapacitated. I must host this podcast on his behalf. I would welcome it. I'll just don't want it the other way around. Remarkable lives.

I think we need to discuss who of them do you think who's had the most remarkable life? I mean, there's an argument, Skull, that you take the biscuit there. Especially the Treaty of Assize such a significant moment in history. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? Yeah. Although Lou Hoover has done 700 jobs in her incredible life and lived everywhere, which is also quite impressive. But you have a writer of well of No-Tel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Louisa Adams getting from St Petersburg to Paris in 40 days with a kid in tow. I mean, I don't have to get into Cardiff with my kids.

I'd argue that's the most impressive of all the things, actually, to be honest. Managing a 40-day biblical journey with your child. Pre the iPad. Yeah. I think there's the answer, to be honest. You've forgotten their favourite toy in St. Petersburg. You're like, we're not going back. How do you think Malani would fare if she had to step in if Donald was taken ill?

How do you think that's going? Let's find out in our Melania special coming up very soon. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's Flotus. Remarkable women from history. incredible CVs. Fair play to them. And we'll be back with you very soon. Goodbye.

Bye-bye. Bye. Oh, Water Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content. Two bonus episodes every month. Early access to live show tickets and access to the Oh, What a Time group chat. Plus, if you become an O Water Time All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up.

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