Oh What A Time... - #188 Surviving First Ladies and Elis Eats Gravel (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 5, 2026

This week we’re looking at what happened to the First Ladies of assassinated US Presidents. The tale of Mary Todd Lincoln, Jackie Kennedy and the loser-known story of Lucretia Garfield.Elsewhere, Elis thinks it’s okay to eat the presentational gravel at a birthday party. Feel free to email about this or anything else: [e-mail] 1 is released on Monday and Part 2 on Tuesday - but if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh Water Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis will riff on your name to postulate

where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime. Hello and welcome to Oh, What a Time. It's a history podcast that harks back to, dare I say, maybe you're better past sometimes. And recently, it was my birthday. We covered this on the subscriber episode and at that birthday party. As Tom was mentioned on this podcast before, I've got a little pub shed in my garden. Tom sat at that pub shed and he had an idea for how the pub shed could be improved.

It's got a couple of optics in it, some spirits in. And Tom was like, I know what you need. You need. of those little kind of cardboard hangers of like scampy fries. Yes, I did say that. Yeah. Cheese moments. And I took that away and I thought, what a great idea.

In particular, I loved cheese moments in the 90s. It was a real treat if my family ever went to the pub to get a packet of cheese moments. Are you sitting down, boys? Absolutely. Well, you can see us on the camera, yeah. I'm not four for two, Chris. I am sat down, yeah. Smiths have discontinued cheese moments.

You can't get them anymore. What are we doing as a nation? What's the point of anything then? The good thing is, though, because they're not food and they're certainly not cheese, if you bought a packet on eBay, where the sell-by date was 1997, fine to eat, in my opinion. If you bought a packet at any time in the next five centuries, hell, it would be absolutely fine. Completely safe to eat. Because of the way Instagram algorithms work, I get this person. who will find old tins of food, like army rations in 1914.

Love it. And then they'll open them up and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, the biscuit was, it was a bit crumbly. Yeah, it was actually more tasteless than disgusting. But yeah, so I've just eaten a biscuit that's 100, you know, 108 years old or whatever. From the song.

Yeah. Well, the completest amongst us will know that occasionally, if you watch his videos, I'd say one in 20, he gets quite ill. He does Yeah, there'll be something which is like meat technically And then it's just something You know, it's really turned Yeah, like a tin of chicken

From the Vietnam War Exactly, from 1967 Obviously some great albums released that year And then I go, And the closing link to that video It's him sat on the toilet Is that sort of genuinely he gets quite ill About one in 20 wheels

Begging people not to do the same Absolutely Do not do this at home I quite love my favourite collector's item the ones where he just refuses to eat it. Like, where it's... He will eat almost anything, but every now and again he'll be like,

I can't eat that. You're like, wow, that must be bad. Even I, who literally does this for a living, cannot eat that. I was actually going to start this show by saying, welcome to Oh, What a Time, the show that asks whether time was better

before long journeys with children in cars. Okay. And the reason I was going to mention that is because I had... a classic crane story as our listeners would probably describe it at the weekend. Should I tell you what happened on Saturday? Yes. This was the journey from hell.

Okay. So we went to Chessington World of Adventures. Okay. On Saturday. Here we go. Buckle up. Okay. This time.

Two weeks ago, ruined by lightning. You've not got a great strike rate at theme parks. So the theme part was fine. The theme part was blameless. I wasn't trapped on a ride. Nothing like that. The problem was, like, midway through the afternoon, my five-year-old says, I've got a bit of a stomach cake.

I'm feeling a bit iffy. So my wife takes him back to the car so you can have a little sleep in the car. I finished doing the rides with our elder son. We then set off on the journey. And about an hour into the journey, my son has his thing, okay, where if he's feeling quite ill, one of the ways he feels comforted in the car is to have my top and put it over himself as like a little duvet cover in the back. seat, which is normally fine because I have like a jumper, I'll give him a jumper.

Because it was a hot day, I'd just gone in a t-shirt to Chessing to World of Adventures. So you look like a guy who drives the van. Yes, so I had to take my t-shirt off, give it to him. I'm now sat topless in the passenger front seat of the car with my kids in the back. If I saw you driving around, I'd turn into an Essex lout. Exactly. So we're on the motorway. It's sort of slightly heavy traffic. seeing me, it's already quite embarrassing, okay? Then, by five roll goes, oh no, I'm going to be sick, I'm going to be sick.

And the only bag we have is a bag of croissants I bought from M&S, so I get the croiss out of the bag, put them in the footwell, and I take the transparent M&S cuissant's bag, I lean around the back, and he's sick into the transparent croissants bag. Like half fills this bag. I have to bring it round. I'm now, just set the scene again, sat topless, as I say, now holding a bag of, sick in one hand, which I can't put down because there's no structural integrity to this bag.

So I can't put it down anywhere. So now people are looking at it. No, Claire's driving. So people are looking in the window and I'm topless holding a bag of sick. If you were sexy before, you're double sexy now. We then... Is that a Tupless guy holding a bag of sick?

Oh, yeah. You know the way to talk does you? Topless with the bag of sick. We then reach Clapton, which is where I live in East London, and we hit gridlock, gridlock traffic, okay? And in this gridlock traffic, my seven-year-old says, I need a wee. I really need a wee. And I'm like, can you hold it?

And he's like, no, I can't. So now my wife is downing a bottle of mineral water. So we have a receptacle. I'm then leaning around so he can urinate in this bottle. Okay. So he half fills a bottle with piss, which I then take to the front again. So now I'm sat topless, driving at one mile an hour through our local area, holding a bag of sick in one bag and a bottle of piss in the other, okay?

Poor kids are going to be hollow by the time you get home. Exactly thinking, I just don't need people to see this. This is absolutely mortifying. Somehow, okay, we get down the Clapton Road, we turn right onto our road, and I've avoided everyone. There's nobody I know has seen me. I've managed it, it's okay. We pull up outside our house and our next door neighbours are having summer drinks

in their front garden. Oh, my. Little bit. You know the little bit? Like on the stoop, basically, on just the little bit that goes onto the road. Claire's pulling up.

I'm topless, holding a bag of sick and a bottle of piss. And there's five neighbours there. It looks like you're about to commit a hit one. There's a perfect cherry on this story as well, which is when we got inside.

Claire remembered. Claire remembered. that as she was driving through Clapton, she was finding it so funny that I was stuck in a situation that she'd stopped on one of those grid things. You're not supposed to stop the car on for like a minute, which means at a point in the next month, we're going to get a fine through the post,

which has a photo in the top right corner of me topless with a bag of sick and a bottle of piss. A keepsake that we can keep forever. So that is why travel. long distances with kids in your car as a nightmare. That was the point I was going to make at the top of the show. Horrendous. Do you know what, though?

You're much more ambitious than me because for years when the kids were small, Izzy would want to go out and do stuff. I would say, are you mad? We stay in the house with all of the things we need and nothing can go wrong. There's running water. There's running water, toilet, wipes.

They're not ill now, but if they do get ill, they've got all the stuff that they want and all the stuff. We need to get them. them better. We're not doing any. If you're desperate to move the house, why don't you go to the postbox? Life is not about experiences, is he? If that's not a long enough walk, then walk back

to the house and then go back to the postbox again. Okay, and we'll do it in shifts. How are you, we're recording this, by the way, ahead of the hottest week like on hit, based on record in London. It's like 37 tomorrow. How are you guys approaching that? Are you, is it with fear? Well, last summer,

last summer, we talked a lot about the long hot summer of 1976. But this, now meteorological, meteorologically, how do you say that? Meteorologically.

Meteorologically. Is it one of those words? Ellis has got it. What was it, L? Meteorologists. No, meteorologically. Well, meteorologists are the scientists

who do it. That's where he was trying to say. I know that. So how do you say it, which is meteorologically? Yeah. Oh, there you go. Look at that.

Either one. Weathermen are saying the men are saying this could be the hotter summer since 1976 maybe even surpass that well the difference is summer of 76 it was like that for the whole summer we're hotter

but in shorter bursts I think yes because in 76 it was just a really nice day every day from like June until the beginning of September whereas we are getting like a mega week where life is unsustainable and then I think this is

normal for a bit well one day this is what we covered on our live show actually we'll have to cover on this show The Great Stink of 1858 Which was when London With a big bag of sick and a bottle of bliss Yeah yeah yeah

It's when London became so hot That the Thames essentially dried up revealing all the excrement Animal carcasses and all this sort of stuff And the smell was so bad That people were vomiting five miles down wind It's an amazing part of history It's a real moment of I'm so glad I didn't live there

I was meant to cycle to the Royal Albert Hall to do a bit of content for the show with John on Wednesday. And I looked at the forecast, 38 degrees. Not sure that's a good idea, actually. It's a 19 mile round trip. You could pursue the workaround,

which is to make that journey at 3am when temperatures are bearable. Yeah, I might just become nocturnal. I might just sleep in the day and then sort of come alive at night. Right. today's episode should be a fun one, I think. It's really interesting actually.

Today we're talking about the first ladies of the United States. Yes. But more specifically, those who've survived assassination attempts on their husbands. I couldn't believe there were so many. It really shines a spotlight on how crazy American politics is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So there's four alone who've narrowly escaped by literally being there at the point of the assassination attempt.

It's remarkable. then more beyond that simply for a satination tempts generally. It's quite a dangerous job being the First Lady, seemingly. I mean, that's what you get with 350 million guns in a country. If they buy guns, they'd just be having tints of beans, checked at them. So today, I'm going to be talking about Mary Todd Lincoln, who is the wife, of course, of Abraham Lincoln. Who are you guys talking about?

I'll be talking about probably the most famous of the three, I think, Jackie Kennedy. I'll be talking about a little known flotus, whose husband was assassinated, La Cretia Garfield. Before we get into that, should we do something even riskier than being the first lady of the United States, which is to read out an email from a listener that I haven't read yet, because I'll be honest, only a minute ago I realised I forgot to sort out the correspondence. So I've gone to the first one that I found, so we're literally reading this on the fly. It could contain anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just wanted to say that I absolutely detest the podcast. The three presenters and everyone listeners. Exactly. Thank God for the edit. So, you sent us some correspondence, have you? Well, let's take a look at you then. Claire Scott says, fancy this job. Hello, boys. Absolutely loved the episode about tough gigs,

not only because it was a fab episode. It started well, Elle. Yes, it's good, we picked a good one. But it also gave me a chance to share this little bit of historical knowledge I read a few years ago, knowledge which my husband and kids are sick of hearing about. Love that. My entry for the worst job possible is that of the Arming Squire.

Anyone here know what an arming squire is? I've got absolutely no idea. Okay. This is a job for 13 to 18 year olds who were interested in becoming knights. The kids would be assigned to a knight and it would be their responsibility to ensure that they had everything they needed to look and perform to the standard expected in battle. That actually sounds okay, doesn't it? That feels like quite a nice job.

sort of shining armour and, you know, I imagine you're eating well, that sort of stuff, probably you've looked after. Exactly, exactly. Let's see if that's right. Sounds all right so far. That's what Claire says. Well, during live battles, these squires would be expected to run into the combat zone, unprotected.

Oh, right, okay. To replace the broken armour on your night, sometimes taking off dead bodies on the battlefield if you didn't have what were needed and if their horse was injured or killed during the battle, it was then your job to find them a replacement horse as soon as possible. Let's interrupt here. to see how we're feeling now, now we've got more information on this job.

That's a hard enough admin job outside of battles, isn't it? Finding your armour. The other day, I couldn't get printer paper quickly. A horse during a battle. At best, it's one of those wild horses you're seeing on a neighbouring field and it's your job to quickly train it and then bring it into battle. That feels like a fool's errand. I'm afraid it doesn't end there.

It says it's the equivalent here in today's world of asking four, Formula One pit crews to replace tyres on the track whilst the race is still going on. Crazy. And if this, and if that isn't bad enough, after the battle, it was then your job to scrape all the mud, blood and bodily functions as who has the time to go to the loo in the middle of life and death battle off the armour? Oh, that's such a good point. I'd never thought about that in war, like old people just defecating in their armour. Dear me. What a, oh, you're spoiling that suit. But I suppose it is easy wipe. That's one of the sort of the good things about metal.

I suppose. What's that World War I film that we reviewed actually, Tom? You read the book. All quiet on the Western Front. There's a scene in the film where when the German soldiers turn up to get their uniforms, they've got the name badges in of the person who died wearing it recently. Like they're recycled in the uniforms and he's like, oh. I guess that's what that's the equivalent with the armour.

Like a match worn shirt. Yeah, it's a matchworn shirt. I'm hoping you get one from your favourite soldiers. Claire continues, I often wonder what happens to these kids if their night dies. Oh yeah. And do they wait around the edges like ball boys at a tennis match? You certainly don't see young kids running into battlefields in the epic movies, do you? Anyway, thought this would definitely make it to the top trumps of tough gigs. You're completely right. That is a absolutely horrendous job. On a lighter note, thought I'd give you a laugh by sharing the fact that my nanny, who turns 101 next month, has been called for jury duty. Pretty sure there should be an age limit for that. She was excused, obviously, although she was not impressed, asking why she couldn't. sit in on a trial. We had to remind her that she hasn't managed to make it through a whole episode of Inspector Morse in years. Anyway, keep up the fab,

work, lots of love, Claire. Claire, that's a superb email. What a mad job. So you're 13 to 18, you're running into battle and you're giving new swords, you're replacing broken armour, you're finding new horses, absolutely not for me. Do you know what that email makes me think about? Like the people who would have had jobs with army,

say like the Norman conquerors, would they have had like administration behind the scenes, like travel managers, maybe so, you know, people who just, who never did the battle, but basically just had to organise all the thugs and knights. Middle management? Middle management. Tour managers. Yeah, tour managers, exactly.

And I imagine the top knights probably did have a circle around them, an entourage of people who really, you know, kept into the life they're accustomed. Well, I've got a tour manager, Giles. I mean, next time I see him, I've been like, Giles, you could have been doing this in a war zone 200 years ago. You were so lucky I'm not an 11th, 10. Night. Yeah.

Traipsing around Europe following me. You should be so lucky that Phil MacIntyre Entertainment are running gigs and not the Crusades. At worst, your wireless mic stops working and he has to run on with a new one. That's basically it. That's the only thing. God, he gets some stick if that happens.

Nice one, Giles. Nice one. Always good to have a victim at a comedy gig. Always good to have a victim. Now 1100 people in York think, I'm an idiot. and whose fault is that? Well, there we go. Claire, thank you very much for emailing that, Ian.

That's genuinely fascinating. We love your weird, unexpected history facts. If any of you, a lovely lot, have one of you want to send our way. Here's how you do just that. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oldwattime.com. and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter

at Oh What a Time pod. Now clear off. Okay, now every week on this show, we remind you that on the top tier, the Oh, What a Time All-Timmers, on Patreon, we will pick a name every week and figure out where in history you may have been as one of your many benefits.

And this week, your name is Christopher Gibson. Where has Christopher Gibson been before? I mean, I don't know if it's just because we were talking about the weather, but it does feel like an 80s weatherman name. Or 19th century experts in the Roman Empire. Wrote like a 20-volume work on the history of the Roman Empire. Yeah, everyone says it's brilliant, but no one is reading it anymore. No, no, God, no. People are reading passages.

Yeah. Yeah, it's 20 volumes. It would take you years to read. No one can do. He hasn't read the whole thing. That's the actually, that's the irony of it. He can write faster than he can read, so he just never bothered. For me, it's a tricky one, because I was very close friends with someone at school who basically had this name. So it's just making me think of a lovely boy who was very good at piano I was friends with.

Yeah. I hope he's well, by the way. Hi, Chris, if you're listening. Big difference vibe wise between Chris and Christopher's. Yes, there is. And we've got one. We can ask, Chris, has anyone gone on you, Christopher? Sometimes if I'm on Zoom or something like that

It just puts my full name in there And I always find it weird When people go Do you mind if I call you Chris Instead of Chris? Like I don't care It's fine I'm not Andy Cole

Are you a Christopher then? Yes you are a Christopher You are technically yeah Yeah yeah But nobody calls you that I'm a Thomas I'm a Thomas But I was only ever a Thomas

When I was growing up When I was in trouble When my mum would tell me off Or my dad That was Thomas But otherwise it'd be Tom Did your teacher's not call you Thomas No not really

Or maybe like the headmaster that sort of more formal people, but not really. Yeah. But also people just call me Crane as well. That was my thing growing up. Yeah. Yeah. That's the truth. What about you, L?

Skull is an amazing name. Yeah. And this is my friend, Skull. One syllable surname is always getting prioritised. Single syllable surnames, they're the ones. It's a really good point out. I don't think we give enough time to the fact that Chris's surname is Skull, a name that I just, you just never come a wrong.

Cross. I know. Fucking hard, son of me. Do you know, once, back when the gas guy would come around to literally check your meter,

I think I was probably at uni at the time, and he knocked on the door and he was like, oh, can I just get your surname? I was like, scorn. He was like, come on, mate. I was like, what? Yeah. It was that, what's your surname?

I was like, no, that's it. Like, two things, like, what, did he think it was ridiculous? But also, would people give fake names to the gas man? Come on my dad, son of this. But also, it's, it's, your spelling is a kind of, it's a kind of rowing boat, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.

Oh, yes. It's a competitive event at the Olympics. I did look into it. There used to be back in like medieval Britain. There would be guys called skulls who would ferry you between particularly hazardous banks on a river. So there would be a skull. Oh, sculling.

Yeah, so he would like, so back when you said it was their job to take you across a treacherous river. Like a toll booth, but like, yeah. How interesting. That was the little bit of research I did. Your surname's tend to come from kind of medieval jobs, isn't it? That's where they're. That's an interesting point in time, isn't it? When rivers were getting across a river was like a genuine nightmare.

Now we live in a time of bridges. But there was a point where you had to go anywhere. You'd meet a river. You'd be like, oh, no. They'd also be the most ripped person in the town. They're rowing all day. Yeah. They'd all look like Steve Redgrave.

tiny legs. Yeah. But do you think this whole days where no one comes where you just sat on the bank of the river just waiting?

And also do you signpost it? How do you drum up business? Well, I guess it's just a crossing point so people would know, wouldn't there? Maybe a path, you know, I guess the football people would know

where they need to go for the crossing point. Yes, you could be Skull S-C-U-L if you're, you know, if you're the kind of person who can row you across a river and then Skull S-K-U-D-R-E-R. double L if you're the kind of person who will do that.

But there's a high probability you'll drown. You'll just fall out of the boat and die. But he's drunk and the boat has holes in it. Isn't talking of drunk, isn't skull as well? That means to neck a drink. Yeah, in Australia. Is it a thing like a... Yeah, they are. It's the name that keeps on giving.

Oh, Scullet, might. Yeah. But it's not about my name. It's about Christopher Gibson's name. So well done, Christopher. You are 19th century Roman historian. Hello again, you horrible lot. Enjoying the show, well, why not show the love by becoming a Patreon supported today? For a mere handful of farthings, you can get ad-free shows, two bonus subscriber episodes each month, access to all the past bonus eps, first dibs on live tickets, and even help decide what subjects the boys cover next.

Your support makes everything possible, so sign up. today at patreon.com slash oh what's a time or oh what's a time.com what are you waiting for? Stop dawdling. So later in the show I will be telling you all about Lucretia Garfield the forgotten first lady

and I'll be telling you about Jackie Kennedy and I'm going to kick things off by telling you lovely boys all about Mary Todd Lincoln, the wife and first lady of President Abraham Lincoln, and also the first of four presidential spouses to survive the assassination of their husband. Mary, she's born in Lexington, in Kentucky, 1818. She has, she's a kind of remarkable lady, really. She's a daughter of a banker and a former soldier called Robert Smith Todd and his wife Elizabeth Parker, okay, so that's the parents. All in all, the Todd's have seven. seven children, including Mary, of whom six survive into adulthood. And having had those seven

children, okay, after Elizabeth, who's the mum, dies, what do you think Robert, the dad did? Okay, so he's already got seven kids. His wife has sadly passed away. What does he do then? What do you think? Remarries another seven kids. He remarries and has another eight children. Eight, okay? This time with Mary's stepmother, Elizabeth Humphreys. I mean, I actually, I was so fascinated by that fact when our brilliant historian Dr Darrell Leeworthy who sent it across. I went further and I looked up the years in which Robert had a kid and there as follows. Get this. This just blew my mind. 1813, 1816, 1817, 1818, 1820, 1821, 1825, 1827, 1828, 1828.

Stop there? Nah. 1830. 1832, 1833, 1836, 1839, 1829, 1824. 1840 and then finally 1841. In every one of those years he has a child. So he had a year off when he became a widow? 1813 through to 1841, just basically constantly popping them out. He's constantly in the nappy zone. The nappy and culpals.

Is he though back then? Wouldn't even even seen a nappy, would he? He's not doing anything. It's a very different time, I think, as a dad there. Is he wealthy? Yes, they are from quite a wealthy background. Yeah, so I think he's spending his afternoon playing golf. I don't think he's hugely involved in the talcing and the nappy changing.

But still... I don't imagine there's much nappy changing going on before 1968. That's a very good point. But men in history. Yeah. My dad, in 83, my dad never changed nappy famously. He had three kids. My dad would do we, but he would not do poo.

would you say that out loud? Did he say that? I will do, I will not do poop. I remember the first time I ever changed a nappy, which was when my eldest was born and I had to do it at that little tiny plastic bed

in the hospital in front of the midwife and I remember I was so stressed by it sweating onto my child like beads of sweat coming my lower back seizing up just so stressed. But you know like remember that game show the Cube on ITV.

Someone else to sort of pull off something under intense pressure. I just remember this. It's been a really starkly stressful moment in my life. Midwife, where I felt so sorry for Claire. Yeah. She'd be like, she's... And then she saw me change on that.

Right. Did she ever ask, you're not Tom Crane from the O'Water Time podcast, are you? Oh no. Oh, no. You're going to have many classic crane here. Not a moment through this far. But similarly to Tom. though, I do remember when Betty was born, giving, being given a vest to put on her.

And I'd held babies that were like two days old, but I'd never held a newborn that's second's old. And I couldn't get the vest on over her head because I thought her head was just going to like come clean off in my hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember being unable to put a vest on and thinking, oh my God, well, if I can't do that, I've literally fallen at the first hurdle. Bill the first test, the vest test.

And the midwife going, oh God, give it. Give the vest to you. I'd love to see a video of my first nappy change versus the last one. Because I reckon that the first one probably took me like seven minutes. And the last one, it was like an F1. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Off you go. Off and away after one and a half second.

Shaking your head if it's more than three seconds, really disappointed with yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. So, as I say, children popping out left, right and centre. Mary herself, you asked if she's in a wealthy background. This kind of tells you everything. She was brought up with a very good education, which you've got a family that large,

and you're still getting a really good education. And you're a woman as well. That shows you the sort of money and background you're coming from at that time. I was just worried about her mum and step mum, having to look after 15 kids without any help. But yeah, good, okay. Absolutely. But Mary did very well.

She's able to speak fluently in French from a young age. And by the time she's 18, she's already finding that Kentucky is a bit sort of too limited for her. She's a very bright person. So in 1839, she moves to Springfield in Illinois to move in with her sister, Elizabeth, and her brother-in-law, Ninian Edwards, who's the son of the former governor of Illinois, Ninne and Edwards Sr. So these are the sort of people in her family, a very successful family. The Edwards were prominent politicians in a state, and it was this proximity to politics. that helped shape Mary Todd's immersion into Illinois society.

She's also someone with kind of impressively firmly held views. She believes strongly in the equality of opportunity for women. And also, I love this. This is incredible. Despite the slaveholding attitudes of her Kentucky family, she was strongly for the abolition of slavery. So it really went against the feelings of her family. Fair play.

Her stance on abolition is even stronger than Abraham Lincoln. like she had, and you know, he's so tied in with the abolition of slavery. Her views on it, she was very clear in her opinion that this is completely wrong, abhorrent behaviour. Which now, so it brings us to the relationship of Abraham and Mary. Abraham, he's from a far poorer background than she was. Do you know about his background and how poor Abraham Lincoln was? I know he grew up in like a hut, didn't he? Like a...

Yes. So he's born in a one-room log cabin, in... Kentucky. And Mary, as we found out, she had a great education. What do you think Abraham Lincoln's education was? Is he a self-taught? Yes. He became a lawyer, didn't he became like a brilliant lawyer. Yes, but what's most remarkable about this? Get this stat. He was self-taught, but he had less than one year of formal schooling in his entire life. Wow. Isn't that amazing? Wow. And went on to become one of the most important presidents ever. So he educated himself by reading books that he borrowed from neighbours, and then by independently studying law. So he studied law

himself, which meant that when he eventually became a lawyer, it was not with the usual wealth connections, all this sort of stuff that people at that time would normally have when they became a lawyer. And what do you imagine, I mean, treat to see what you think here, what do you think the high-achieving Edwards and Todd families felt about Mary getting together with someone who was born in a wood hut? Were they absolutely gutted? Absolutely. They were furious about it. And even more so when the pair got engaged. I really hope that he he like properly held this over them

when he became president. So you said I'll be a failure, did you? Yeah. Do you want to stay over ours? Yeah. It's called the White House. It's the biggest house in Washington. You won't miss it.

Exactly. But incredible. So Mary's family were like livid that she was getting together with this guy because they saw him as such a sort of from a low stock. And then he went on. to become the president. And indeed, through various forms of pressure, both from her family, also personal pressure, the pair had a really rocky start. Okay, they're on again, they're off again.

Until finally, in November 1842, they do get married. They then have four children, Robert Todd Lincoln, Edward, William Wallace and also Thomas. Sadly, of the four, only Robert lived a full life. And things weren't going to get easier after that either. Lincoln's election as president of the United States in 1860 took the family to Washington where they were soon plunged into the horrors of a civil war. As first lady, Mary was sort of a staunch of sometimes difficult ally of her husband and supported him despite the obvious strains within her own family because some of her immediate relatives died for the Confederate cause. Oh my God. Can you imagine a walk would that would be? I know. Yeah. Run the dinner table. Well, it really was and there was real strain on their

relationship. And then in 1862, further strain as their favourite son, Willie, died of typhoid, age, just 11. So they've really gone through a lot. And this loss, sadly, plunged Mary into a deep depression. Okay. She does not leave her bed for three weeks. She refuses to go into the room where Willie died or to attend the funeral. She's in a place of real loss, real despair. It's also famously said that Lincoln himself often visited Willie's tomb late at night to be with and sort of commune with the spirit of his son. Absolutely heartbreaking. I knew that. Yeah, I knew that about Mary and Abraham

that Willie's death absolutely shook them. Like they were never quite the same. That's exactly right, Chris. And for the remainder of Lincoln's presidency, Mary Todd, she was dutiful, you know, dutiful First Lady, but she was really affected by this loss. She still visits field hospitals. She writes letters to families of the fallen and a wounded. She goes to the front lines with her husband. She's quite an impressive figure actually.

But she also attracts controversy for her lavish spending, for not being cautious, sort of spendthrift spouse that was expected. There's a real example of this. That comes from food. Okay. So Lincoln, he eats modestly. He's from a kind of much simpler background, so he's used to simpler food. He eats cheese and crackers, chicken, mashed potato, boiled eggs for breakfast, that sort of stuff. however, far wealthier background, loves much richer food. So give me your thoughts on these midweek dinners that she was enjoying in the White House. Well, he's just having his eggs, okay?

She loved turkey cooked with truffles. That was one of her favorite go-to meals. Okay, I had that last night, right? Yeah. Again, is he, really? Yeah. Cow tongue in gelatin. So cooked him like a jelly made with stock

with a cow tongue in a little bit. Had that before the gym today. Yeah, sure. If Heston Blumenthal is serving me that, I'm thinking, this will be lovely. But back then, if I'm just walking in, yeah, I'm not... I think as it's wobbling across the restaurant towards my table, and it's clearly a tongue. I don't have the faith. It's going to be nice. And often these meals were rounded off with her favourite cake, which is called almond cake.

And she had such a sweet tooth that she once bought 13 pounds of sugar in a single week. That's how much sugar she was getting through. So really rich taste. Well, I don't know if Dr. Darrell's got... this in his note, but I know that Mary Todd Lincoln, modern historians and psychiatrists retroactively think that she probably had bipolar because she would have these massive bouts of depression and then be quite impulsive like you're saying, Crane, that she would be quite lavish and like have these expensive dinners and throw loads of money around, but then also

just crash back into a great depression. She seems to have the hallmarks of bipolar. I think most people agree that if she was analysed a day, she probably would be diagnosed. with bipolar and that unfortunately has a very sad consequence for her and something we will come to very shortly. Before that though, the fateful day, okay? The Ford Theatre, April the 14th, 1865, Mary and Abraham, they've gone out for a nice evening to watch a comedy play called Our American Cousin.

Can I just say? There's something about you're teeing up the assassination of Abraham. We know what's coming next and you're going. They went out for a nice evening. Yeah? Trying to take the pressure off. So let me just take you through it. They've got a pot of those little green pringles.

They've had two ice creams where the spoon is cleverly hidden in the lid of the ice cream. Yeah. Which is quite good. She's my witts. You could get him back then. Yeah. Massive paga revels. Yeah.

She's got a pint of Stella. And next thing you know, Wilkes Booth has shot him in the back. And that really has affected the evening. Okay. Here's a heartbreaking thing. They were holding hands at the time, clearly in love, when Wilkes Booth opened fire from behind. Quite understandably, she becomes hysterical. she becomes hysterical. She recovers briefly to transfer papers on Lincoln's person to an advisor for safekeeping.

But it's just a horrendous thing to be experiencing. She's then with him on his deathbed and is so traumatized by the whole experience, the attending physician has to ask her to leave the room and only relents when Lincoln's fate is completely clear. Then she's allowed back in. And in the aftermath of Lincoln's death, there was this global outpouring of grief and sympathy. Queen Victoria wrote Mary a letter expressing solidarity of feeling, sharing in the grief that she felt upon the loss of Prince Albert only a few years before. And the trauma, though, you talk earlier about its highs and lows, the trauma just reopened these awful wounds of loss of losing two sons already. And Mary's behaviour, as you rightly pointed out, Chris, becomes increasingly erratic.

And it is likely that nowadays she would be diagnosed with bipolar effective disorder. But that was then. And instead, she was just treated. treated by various drugs before being placed in an institution by her eldest son Robert, who could no longer cope with the effects of a mental ill health. And that then had another sad consequence. What ought have been basically a post-presidency of sympathy and share grief and people saying, you know, I feel so sorry for what you've been through.

It was all kind of undone a bit by the, if you want it better for her darker sides of Mary's condition, her lavish spending. Congress were very angry at her for demanding a pension, which was reluctantly granted in 1870. Basically, she was complete unable or unwilling to play the role of a national widow before her death. And that really affected the way that she was seen. And given that husband was and is a national martyr figure in America,

this failure kind of led to decades, indeed more than a century of criticism. And even today, Mary Todd Lincoln sits near the bottom of the ranking tables of First Ladies, far below Eleanor Roosevelt, Abigail Adams, and Michelle Obama. And yet, when looked at, sympathy and understanding. Mary Todd Lincoln stands up as a complex individual.

She's affected by illness, by the tragedies of a life, but she's also fascinating for her interest and involvement in politics, her determination to support those serving in the Union Army during the Civil War, her abolitionist attitudes, her own education. But it's just been completely unfairly damaged by this cruel fate that she experienced and her mental health, which was not seen in a way that it deserved. So kind of heartbreaking actually, the legacy of this lady who really was an amazing person. Minor correction.

I think you said Abraham Lincoln was shot in the back. He was shot in the back of the head. Oh, was he? Yeah, because he did survive for a little bit, although he never regained consciousness, which I always found quite interesting, that he actually survived for a few hours after that. But also, Mary Todd Lincoln, when he was dying, you're right, she took away because she was just so hysterical at the prospect of losing her husband. but they had to, like, remove her from the room,

which is just astonishing, isn't it? So there you are. That's the story of Mary Todd Lincoln, wife and first lady of the president, Abraham Lincoln. Kind of remarkable story, really, isn't it? It is so tragic. One of the tough, I think, one of the toughest lives in history, she had, she went through so much tragic.

Yeah, absolutely. Also, 16 siblings must be quite annoying. That's a thing to be dealing with early odd I mean I've got two siblings Is it annoying or is it brilliant But I suppose as well you wouldn't know I mean you're going to be 20 or 25 years younger or older than something Maybe this is what Robert Smith Todd the dad was thinking

Like I know you think having too many kids But they now look there's so many They just look after each other now Basically I don't have to do any parenting Because there's 102 of them Also I think in a pre-whatsap age it's unmanageable. But they just might as well be strangers.

It's easier in a WhatsApp age. Not sure what is he would say if I said, do you fancy having another 13 kids? If you do ask, please record it. We'll play it out on the show. So that's the end of part one. Part two. We'll be out tomorrow.

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