Oh What A Time... - #192 Dan Snow on Waterloo, Nazi Gold Trains and the Age of Sail (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 26, 2026

This week we’re joined by one of our favourite historians in the whole world, it’s Dan Snow! We treat this episode like we’ve cornered Dan at a BBQ and just ping him with questions: how gruesome was the Battle of Waterloo? What was the worst job on a ship? Did the Nazi Gold Train actually exist?We cover a lot on this pod, but if we’ve missed anything, you know what to do: [e-mail] 1 is released on Monday and Part 2 on Tuesday - but if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime. Hello and welcome to Oh, what's time, and welcome to a special episode because this week our guest is the first man I ever heard to history podcast. A pioneer. A pioneer.

The Neil Armstrong of History Podcasts. Out sailing the digital seas before anyone else. One great link for man. One great full episode for mankind. It's the wonderful Dan Snow. Yeah, this is a great episode. In it, we're basically going to ask him all the things we're interested in that we know that he's interested in.

So we've got the age of sale. We've got the last days of the Nazis, the Nazi gold train, and we're also going to cover the Battle of Waterloo as well. And it also shows just how boring the three of us would be if we were ever at a party or a barbecue with Dan Snow because we would basically corner him and say, Dan, tell us about this, and he would have to oblige. Forming a defensive wall around him.

It's got nowhere to go. It's a really pathetic insight into how the three of us would get if we knew him socially. Yeah, absolutely. And do you know what? Because of that and because he's such a fascinating man and there's so much in this episode, should we just get straight into it? Let's do it. Here is the wonderful Dan Snow.

Welcome to genuinely one of my favourite historians. He's the founder of history here. And as I was thinking about this today, I think he is the host of the first history podcast I ever heard. and in many respects can lay claim to inventing the genre. He's bearing his teeth. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Dan Snow. You know, who was there before you? Do you know, I think I nicked it from someone else, I'm pretty sure.

So I can't claim, I cannot claim to invent the genre, but I'm really happy to say that, bud, and, you know, feel free to tell everyone that. In about 2010, I was asked to interview a historian from Imperial College London and for a podcast and I did the interview and at the end of it I said so what's a podcast then because I've done it and I'd been told it was an interview I had no idea what the what the format was what the medium was and it's probably another four years before I listened to a podcast so yeah it's nice it's nice that finally we've got someone on who was there to popularize the genre

I remember first hearing about podcasts and thinking well that's not going to take on nobody that will never become successful I think I thought I thought that about the internet Yes, me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. It's too slow. I remember watching a feature about the internet on Blue Peter with my dad who was home from work, and the both of us were like, well, who would ever want that? Why would you need to email someone who lives in Australia?

It's pointless. And the strange thing is, you were absolutely right. It's just, but not in the ways you thought. You should have clung onto that goddamn thought. And then we wouldn't be in the mess we're into that. But denier. I've got a quick question for you, Dan. Before we continue, you are Lloyd George's great, great grandson.

Great, yes. Which is very exciting for me. I'm incredibly, I'm hugely fascinated by Lloyd George's life in Korea. I often read the biography by Roy Hatter's Lee before I go to bed. Who doesn't? One question I've got for me. One question I've got for you is that Lloyd George famously, You're quite a diminutive man.

He was about five foot six, I think. You're obviously a direct relation. You're six foot six. So as someone who's five foot seven, my question is, Dan, how do I make my kids massive? Because clearly your family were doing something right. Unfortunately, as various branches of our family have been rude,

you've got to marry into the bloody, the Saxons next door. You've got to marry into those flipping Vikings and those jutes and angles next door. Alas, you've got to leave. I mean, that's what happened in my case. that is the problem. But some of my cousins who've remained true in Gwyneth are still a little bit on the

shorter side. So it's time, Ellis, for you to explain to Izzy that this marriage has to come to an end. Yeah. I need to start a new one. I need a bigger wife. Izzy. Exactly. A netball player.

No one in Britain's ever heard of him anymore. But he's the first, really the first prime minister of Britain to come from a working class background. Yeah, yeah. Grew up in a cobbler's hut, really. English not his first language, and become Prime Minister without going to Oxbridge, serving in the military or having grand connections. It's an amazing story. Yes, it is a completely bonkers story.

And by the way, because Churchill looms very large and the Second World War looms very large, he did the Churchill job in the First World War. Biggest flipping war, Britain's ever been involved in, gigantic global conflict, existential threat. And there's the man steps up, you know, great speeches, all the rest of it, but because they're not recorded, they've sort of been forgotten. But at the time, people talk about it's like electrifying effect on audiences. It's kind of morale. He was an amazing orator.

It's an astonishing orator. I mean, tragic that we don't have his account. But, you know, also terrible failings, monstrously corrupt, sort of sexual divinity, you know, I think reasonably we now would say sexually assaulted people. You know, so like all of that, of course. But just an extraordinary, extraordinary life. And welfare reform and women's. Old age pension first time, introduces taxes on the super rich.

I mean, very, very, very, yeah, so again, people talk about in 1945, the invention of the welfare state. That's all building on foundations laid by Lloyd George. Because I used to hear the name Lloyd George an awful lot when I was growing up. So I think... What? Just because if you, you know, I'm 45. So in the 80s when I was a kid, his name would crop up fairly regularly in the Welsh media. because obviously Neil Kinnock was

Yes, the Kinnick was an interesting thing Yeah, exactly, yeah Had Kinnick been PM, he would have been the first Welsh Prime Minister since Lloyd George. And so in terms of the big politicians, it was Lloyd George and Knaife, and I suppose were the big two

that used to get referenced an awful lot. My dad was always saying, you know, in Wales we measure men from the chin up and all that kind of thing because people would mock him for his height. But he was, yeah, a really, really fascinating. A friend of mine is from Crickieth, which is about a mile from Stanis Tim Doey.

That's where I was, I was christened in Cricket. You're christened, christened in Cricket. Well, he's an actor, and his first, his first ever acting role was to play Lloyd George at the age of seven in a school production. So clearly, it's quite, he still looms large in the Crickieth, Lannis Timdoy area, I would say, Dan. Yeah, for sure. And my great grandma, who I met my great nine, was his daughter. And we'd stay with it, and we'd go for, like, Sunday lunch. at the sort of whatever, the pub or the golf club or something.

And everyone would be like, well, hello, Lady Ollwin. And she'd be speaking Welsh and we'd all be, like have to look smart and everything. And she was still sort of, you know, quite, quite important. That was that last era of where you could be a sort of local, you know, local royalty in some ways. Yes. She'd open the lifeboat. She'd go down and open the lifeboat station. That's amazing.

Yeah, it's a great. Alwyn, Kerry Evans, she married. I've heard him speak Welsh. So he was, he gave a speech at the. sort of 1939 a step vote or something so I've heard him speak there are recordings of his voice yeah yeah there are recordings of him much later in life yeah and there's a thing interesting thing about those that gentleman that they say so that look this is kind of modern point as well so platforms are determined political communication right and so in the roman senate like Cicero would get up

and just dominate he could he had it right around his finger the big public meetings of like Mass participant, like Robert Warpole knew how to, the House of Commons, that's where the action was. You don't have to worry about speaking outside the House of Commons. No one has. It's like he was able to sort of wrap, again, those independent-minded backbench MPs around his little finger. Gladstone was a guy who had to go and shout in public meetings because why the suffrage? And, you know, people like Gladstone and Lloyd George was, so he would go into slate quarries and just like raw and like ride people. And then the radio was introduced and Lloyd George was hopeless because he would scream at the mic.

you're peaking line you're peaking yeah exactly whereas now you know this is podcast voice like guys you know

I'm talking and I'm just caressing the microphone and I'm telling people about Trafalga and Nelson got shot through the shoulder with a bullet

that took him you know that's how and Stanley Baldwin's really good at that so Baldwin like smoked a cigar puffed on a pipe like hello everyone

I'm not tell you about them I'm tell you about politics and so and I you know there was a brief I don't even remember but there's a brief

like David Cameron's good at social video moment yes yeah yes was sort of rather strange moment. Barack Obama was good at Twitter, Trump was good at Twitter.

And so like it's fascinating. AOC's great at Instagram, like, you know, reels. So whatever the kind of, that politicians emerge, if they happen to be good on the platform that's going to dominate the time, and I find that really interesting.

Well, the famous television debate between Nixon and... Kennedy. Kennedy. Yeah. TV viewers overwhelmingly favored Kennedy. Yeah. Because you were saw television. he was so photogenic.

On the radio, people tended to favour Nixon because it was more substance to what he was saying. It's just he was, if you watch his back, he's really sweaty. Yeah, he's sweating uncontrollably. He's sweating uncontrollably. He just looks really uncomfortable. Well, listen, as a sweaty guy, I have sympathy for that. So, yeah, exactly.

But, you know, and that's why, but, you know, you three proving the opposite is the case. Legendary podcast is also super dashing in real way. Now that I've laid eyes upon you. We waited for the medium to take hold before we leapt into it. You mentioned the opening of a Sainsbury's. Here's a strange little job that my friend had to do last month. He runs a company that makes food-based things for adverts.

They're opening a new Dolmio factory. And he had to make a 50-meter long piece of spaghetti to be cut by the Italian celebrity for the media. That was his job last month. Fantastic. To make a piece of spaghetti. It was 50 metres long and it could be cut for the opening of the factory. How thick was it? I don't know, I have no informational thickness.

It was just length that was required for the photo shoot. Yeah, the tensile strength. Because it feels very breakable, a 50 metre long piece of... Like a tug of war rose. That's what I'm imagining. I'm forgetting my pasta names, but if it's one of those kind of ribbon-like ones. Oh, yeah. A bit more strength to it.

Or one massive bowtie, Papadale. Yes, yes. Yes, no, I think well. That's probably the right choice. So today's episode, Dan, just to explain to our lovely listeners, who will be delighted you're here. There's obviously there's infinite things that we could ask you about because you're an actual historian in a way that we're not.

Although Ellis, to be fair, he has a degree in history. We'll give him credit where credit is due. And an MA, before I realized I was too thick to do a PhD. And I decided to get out quick and cut my losses. Somehow passed me by, I'm sorry. I apologize. He's got an MA in history. Don't worry about it.

But we thought what could be fun is we each tackle a subject or take on a subject that we love and ask you questions. questions on that. For example, I am obsessed with the age of sale. I find this period of British history fascinating. So I have questions on that. Chris, what was it you want to ask about today? I want to ask about the last days of Hitler in the Fuhrer bunker, the last days of the Nazis, but also the rumoured Nazi gold train, which is, which Dan, I know you've been involved with personally. I'd love to ask you about that. One of the many personal humiliations And I'm going to be asking you about Waterloo, the Battle of Waterloo, if that's okay.

But before we do that, should we do some sillier settling questions? Chris, over to you. Let's start with these. So we've covered a bit of famous historical relatives. The other question we like to ask historians is, if I gave you the option to go in our one-day time machine, this will allow you to go back to any day in history, anywhere ever. And you could either participate or you could purely observe with like an invisible. cloak. Where would you go and why? Well, this is an unfair question to ask a story. To be honest, because it's just

every time I make a new show, even a new podcast, I always think that would be the most amazing thing to go and see. The great Chinese treasure fleets leaving to go and explore the Indian Ocean in the early 15th century, you know, these massive ships. The Battle of Trafalgar, we're going to probably talk about

later in the podcast to see those. To see the field of the cloth of gold, Henry VIII, and King Francis of France, just spending all their money on just this insane extravaganza, a wine fountain. What's the cloth of gold? I don't know. So they laid out, they created this sort of, they created this, I think we'd now call it a pop-up. A pop-up palace, a tented, a tented palace.

And it's called a cloth of, a field of a cloth-gold. They, like, sort of laid carpets out and not to walk on a grass. And they had this summit. And there was a wine fountain, and it's obviously spilted wine. And in the morning, the French will walk past it. And there was an Englishman lying around out, so it smashed. And they're like, what's going on with these guys? And it's like, you have a wine fountain?

What do you think was going to happen? And I love the fact that it's just this universe that just remains ever since. You know, like I've occasionally been around the world some stupid event where they've accidentally not realized there's going to be British people there. And there's like a booze sort of fountain or something. Yeah.

And there's just sort of Brits like jumping into it and sort of showering in it. You know, it's like, I know all the kind of local Spaniards is going, it's very strange. Yeah. Artistic thing is being ruined. Anyway. So it would be fun to see that. Henry the 8th wrestled the King of France and lost.

It's quite cool. Amazing. So yeah, unfortunately, mate, you know, the fancy aunts go back to the festival of Dionysus and ancient Athens, so on, as the Parthenon's brand new or that building work on the crop is brand new, sitting in that theater built into the edge, watching some of the greatest playwrights of all times. Put on comedy and tragedies and like bang them out one after the other. You're like, what's going on? So difficult, sorry, man, difficult. That's okay. Do I need to give you a straight answer?

Let's say fill the cloth of gold a bit for just for the lulls. You said Henry the 8th wrestled the King of Spain? Oh no, King of France. King of France, sorry. At what point, in what weight class?

Well, it's a good question and I think he regretted that he regretted his decision. He was trying to avoid doing it from memory. I think he was trying to avoid doing it and in the end got carried away and thought he'd, because there was sort of wrestling

going on, you know, for entertainment and he thought come on it, lads, let's get in here, and he got in and then wrestled. It's quite embarrassing and then lost that. Oh, man. That's amazing. That's how we decide who goes first on this podcast, actually. We have a... Manly wrestle.

So it was just like a sporting event. He was watching and he thought, I'll get involved. In the way that, let's say Charles went to see England at Wembley, half way through, he thought, I'm going to give this a go. Came down, put his boots on. It is actually very similar to that. We hear about commodious

The Roman Emperor, obviously, made famous in the gladiates film. He would also enter the arena because you'd want to get a piece of it as well. So, yeah, and it's not, perhaps that happens more than you might think. But, yeah. I wonder how much that is to do with the kings and royalty constantly being told they can do everything, that they are all powerful, all that sort of stuff. But nobody's stopping and saying, actually, Henry, this is probably a bad idea, because he's Henry the 8.

No, that's the problem. I mean, that's, in a way, isn't that fascinating? So you're only ever going to get found out when there's another king involved. Because everyone, it's when you're in England, everyone could go, like, So tell the other wrestling. You're just going to lose right now. But when there's another king involved, then things get a bit crazy because there's no one in charge.

Yeah. You could imagine they were sweating. You need the king of Portugal to go, guys, it's not worth it. Leave it. Yeah, you need the holy Roman emperor, but then actually that's who they were there to conspire against. That wouldn't have worked either.

But yeah, you need a boss. You need an emperor to really just go, come on that. We'll go on to our next settling question, which is if I were to allow you to own any historical, artefact that either we know exists or may have existed and you can have it yourself at home, what would you go for?

Well, I think, well, it may have existed because that's very exciting because... If you pick it, thinking it may have existed and it hasn't, you end up with nothing. There's a new rule I've just made on the fly. Tutankhamen's Death Mask, the gold sort of mask,

the head and shoulders mask, that goes over, that was over his mummy. It's in Egypt, obviously. And it is really, when you go and see it, one of the most astonishing things you can ever see. So to have that in your house. Although, yeah, I don't really have things in my house. But I suppose, yeah, if I was going to have something in my house,

I'd have that, I guess. Yeah, that would be an amazing thing to have. But you're talking point at dinner, wouldn't it? Where are you putting this? I'm interested. Where are you putting the death mask? Downstairs toilet, mate. Come on. Just the flex, the absolute.

That's the, I love that. That, you know, they're just nicer stuff elsewhere in their house, so this is where this is going. What is it that's so remarkable about it when you see it then? Is it just... The fact that there's lots of gold on it. Gold is amazing. Like, the reason that everyone loves gold is gold is amazing.

Like, as someone who's seen a lot of gold and fancy... Like, I don't own any gold. But when you go and see, like, a load of gold, you're like, yeah, actually, I can see why people fly horse for this. And Ramesses is the second and Napoleon want to cover themselves in gold because it is absolutely bloody amazing. So you've got a lot of gold in it. You've got that beautiful blue colour.

you've got the, just the intricacy of it. You know, it's three and a three thousand, coming up to three thousand, five hundred years old. And you just think, my God, and then you think to yourself. So it's just astonishing. It's the fact that it was laid untouched for all. It's the story. And then there's the fact you think Tutankarman was a teenage pharaoh of little importance. You imagine what the others are being buried with.

I mean, the sheep, it's creepers. Yes. But they were all looted badly, you know, but you just think, my God, there's some of that. I mean, Ramesses's tomb is like an underground car park sort of multi-story. And you think, I mean, he ruled for 80 years or something. So what was in there, God only knows. Yeah. But for lots of reasons, that would be an amazing thing.

Just on Egypt, I've always wanted to ask a historian, do you think there's any more tombs, like major tombs, undiscovered that are lying there somewhere? They're definitely. I think it's about a quarter. So there's a, like, in pharaohs that we know exist, like attested on the sort of list of pharaohs, we think about a quarter of their tombs haven't been found.

Wow. But don't quote me on that because I have not looked at my notes. But yeah, so there could be, there was an intermediate period tomb found the other day. That's not too bad. But will we find one on Tutankham's sort of scale? I don't, yeah, I hope so I don't know. We've never found Alexander the Great's tomb.

Yeah. He's there somewhere. So you mentioned Ramesses, who already talked about Henry VIII Wrestling. final one of these questions before we get into the history proper is who is your favourite historical figure?

You've got to choose one person that you're most specified that you just define their story the most remarkable. Who is it for you that really stands out? I mean, these questions, I mean, we're hearing of talk I mean, Nelson's remarkable.

Talk about Nelson later on that do find his story. Alexander the Great, I mean, as you're gathering. We did a five-part series on his remarkable life, yeah, yeah. So these are pretty old-school and sort of blokey in my,

I mean, obviously there are people like Mary Wollstonecraft who grew up, you know, protecting her mother from being sexually assaulted, who goes on to right amazing philosophy. There are amazing people. But deep down, I am drawn to the stories of people that travel, conquer, know the horrors and delights of battle. You know, so I like people that go on a big old social escalator. And Genghis Khan is proud to beat him. So he goes from being outward. His dad was significant, but in a sort of local way.

But he's sent out of his tribe and he has to scrounge for rodents and, and, and, you know, plant roots and rats to stay alive with his mother and his brothers. And so that is pretty low. Like that's an adieu. And he then goes on to conquer the largest continuous land empire to that point in history. I made so little when I first went professional as a stand-up. That's basically what my life was right. And here you are.

Here you are. No more worlds left to conquer. I mean, so yes. You and Genghis started in the similar fashion. At the moment, I'm just saying that Genghis is... At the moment, in a conventional way, I'm sure you're happier. Yes.

If we're sort of calling balls and strikes, Genghis is a little bit. His experience higher highs. He did have a better 20 minutes set than you. Exactly. Well, I probably didn't. I bet they laughed hard though. Good one. Yeah.

Love it. So I do find those stories just like absolutely intoxicating. You know, or Patrick Couty who kind of builds the Inca Empire. Like, just what is, how does that work? And what effects that have on your? Cyrus the Great. So I'm I'm obviously in my like proper dead dead generals phase of my life at the moment but I do find that extraordinary but then also of course right you know science engineers Newton Brunel Galilei like that's that would be that would be cool wouldn't it just going through like

inventing very significant things and discovering things and going this is going to change lives every single person on this planet even if they don't know it and just what in it that must be amazing. Absolutely right shall we charge headfirst into the the proper history in the show now. Ellis, do you want to kick us off with your section? Yes, absolutely. So I'd like to talk to you about the Battle of Waterloo. Now, we're recording this the day after France lost the semi-final of the World Cup to Spain. If England beat Argentina and they get to the final, had they played France,

there definitely would have been references to the Battle of Waterloo in the tabloids. Why do you think the Battle of Waterloo has such an enormous, hold on the public imagination, certainly in England. Well, lots to impact. First of all, because it was the climax, the end point of the greatest war that Britain had ever fought to that point in history. People like a simple story, don't they? There's not much nuance there. So Emperor Napoleon, Gallup's North, is crushed in a big battle, gets arrested, goes to St. Helena, the war is over. Like, it's good, it's neat. It's not like the sort of messian in the First World War or other wars where all the states

and we're going to get together and thrash something out, right? So there's that. Secondly, it becomes immediately very popular in Britain at a time when printing presses, ceramics industries, the middle classes are gaining wealth, they are re-work, all the classes are reading, they are buying little trinkets, they've got disposable income,

and so you're buying plates with a Waterloo motif on it. You are beginning to travel abroad, you are likely to go to Waterloo first. So there is the essential kind of importance of that battle, and it is important. But in the same way that the Vietnam War loomed large in our childhoods when actually it probably didn't need to particularly, but because the Americans were involved in it

at a period of total American cultural hegemony over the rest of the world. So our movies, our songs, we're like, yeah, man, Vietnam. Everyone around the world was like, Vietnam. So I think it's kind of an... element of that as well. The Brits then go on a journey which in some ways is not related to, it's not, it's only kind of distantly related to Waterloo and become the biggest empire of the world's ever seen. And when you're the biggest empire of the world that's ever seen, you kind of look for big moments in your

past. How the hell do we get here? And Waterloo is a kind of really obvious and easy one to kind of hold on to. So in the House of Lords, you go in and there's just like on, you know, in the house, you know, going to House of Parliament on the way to House of Lords, whereas there's a massive, massive painting of the Battle of Waterloo and the Battle of Trafalgar. And they're kind of just useful markers, like waypoints, just go, right, yeah, this was a sort of chapter beginning here. And I'm not, and I'm, you know, historians go, well, that's not really entirely true. But that's kind of why, I think.

And then Britain didn't fight another big battle in Western Europe until 99 years after the Battle of Waterloo. So it just, there was nothing that kind of came after it. So if you're looking for kind of big battle on the continent and exciting and fighting the French, that's the last example you got of it. Would you say it was the most consequential battle of the 19th century? So this is, I'm going to be the really boring historian

and I'm going to say it probably, it probably wasn't. But as a Welshman, I'm glad you're also about Waterloo because of course, General Picton, who was the absolute hit, was Wellington's hit man at the Battle of Waterloo. He was Welsh, and he was an absolute legend, and he refused to wear uniforms. He's from Pembrokechshare, was he was from Hertford West.

Yeah, and he just strolled around in his civilian clothes, just barking, swearing and shouting and barking. men and he was responsible for turning back the tide. Yeah, exactly. In civilian clothes, was he really? Yeah, just wandering about. Amazing.

And the French tried to smash the British, the British allied. We should say, of course, actually, the minority of troops on the day there were English, sort of vast numbers of the Welsh troops, huge numbers of Scots and Irish, and then lots of Dutch Dutch and Germans fighting in weapons, army. And obviously the Prussian allies coming later on. But anyway, so the French try and smash. the British left first thing in the morning and Pictons is there and helps to stabilise situation but he's killed in the midst of that fighting so yeah he's a he's a

remarkable Welsh character but yeah is it no because actually Napoleon was busted he was busted by that point it was a desperate comeback attempt he'd been categorically thrashed in Russia famously 1812 winter and then Leipzig this enormous battle annoyingly for the Brits they were only very very marginally involved in but it's probably the biggest battle in history to that point takes place in Germany in Leipzig obviously and whenever Leipzig make it into the Europa conference I'm always like, oh, I'm not Lexing. And Napoleon is like absolutely rinsed at this terrible battle 1813.

And after that, he's kind of, it goes into exile, he comes back from exile to sort of gamble everything at Waterloo. But really, I don't think he was ever going to get back. If he'd won Waterloo, look, maybe. But if he'd won Waterloo, there were hundreds of thousands of other troops marching towards him. He was in deep, deep trouble. I think, you've got me thinking about the most important battle in the 19th century, And the answer is it's like, who the hell knows?

But I'd say, actually, it would be German unification. It'd be one of those battles. They fight against the Austrians in the 1850s, like Konigrat, something. Where, like, Germany, so Germany didn't exist. Germany was a geographical entity. There was Prussia and Hamburg and Hannaver and Bavarian, things like Saxony. The fact that Germany exists is reasonably important in the history that's to come, right? That, like, with the world, Europe gets a German problem?

So those battles are really, really important, I think. German unification, yeah. Dan, while I've got you, I want to give you your flowers because it was a podcast you did years ago. I think you and your dad had stayed at Hugermont, which is the farm at the centre of the, well, just kind of off centre of the battlefield. Yeah, nice, good correction there, buddy, impressive. But I think listen to your podcast. Me and some friends were like, well, I didn't realize that farmhouse is still there. So we went to stay there.

And there's obviously the topography of the field is completely changed. change, but there's that, there was a famous battle within the farmhouse itself. And so, because you're staying there at night, when everyone's gone home and it's dark, you're like, well, thousands of people probably died here. It's so good, isn't it? And you're just alone there. And there's nowhere else around, is it? Like, there's, no, nothing around, no.

There's nothing around. There's nothing right. The French, they're coming all day. They're blasting the hell out of it all day. And the French, at one stage, they managed to bust open the gates. They get through. there's like this massive like six foot Frenchman just wailing around with his I can't know it was an axe or something yeah exactly and eventually he's kind of they're overwhelmed

and they kind of the grenadiers like how all the cold streamers I think they are they kind of hurled themselves against the gates and closed them I mean it's proper Hollywood stuff it's so good but yeah that's but you're on the ghost point it's a very good point because people always say to me oh do you think there's ghost I go look man I've been to I've been to I've been to the worst place on earth I've been to like I've been to obviously like Auschwitz I've been to played massacre sites. I've been to places where Indigenous Americans which are wiped out by the American army.

I've been to, you know, Hogan, and there's no ghost there. But yeah, sure. One old, one old girl died in your terrorist house in London. The whole, it's such a terrible sad place. It's like, what are you talking about? And in Britain, we have Marble Arch, which was the old Tyburn.

I mean, tens of that, that was the public execution spot. No one walks around the Marble Arch Day going, I can't you just feel it all. They're like their ice cream, it's fine. Yeah. They say, God, there's a lot of pretz thrown to you, isn't it? Everyone's having like out in the side. I dread it when I have to change at Marble Arch.

I hate it. I'll take a much longer route to avoid it. Well, maybe you can feel their presence. Yeah. Tom can feel ghosts. Because it's an alliance, is it? Between the British and the Dutch and the Belgians and the Prussians. Was that an uneasy alliance?

Well, listen, I think, look, this is a really poor point. on my little soapbox here. We love our history. We love the fact that we have been largely we were briefly very dominant all over the world and it's very fascinating, wonderful story. Britain's greatest successes came as part of coalitions, right? It was a coalition that won the Battle of Waterloo.

There were Prussians, there were Dutch, as you say, there were all sorts of people from Germany, the endless people. And no, they were a pain in the ass. Coalitions are a pain in the ass, but coalitions tend to win, right? So Germany had a very,

easy and simple command structure during the first and second world wars. I mean, much easier than the Allies. The Allies, you've got French people involved. You're having conferences. Churchill's whacking around, like falling out with the French. You've got Americans who are insisting on not serving under British officers. It's a pain in the other. But you can access unimaginable muscle. The Germans don't have to worry about that. They just go, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, they move, and then they get whipped both times, right? So it's, yes, you know, on the one hand, things tend to be sort of slightly easier when you're by yourself. You can sort of make decisions, get on, crack on, but your resource constrained.

You've got nothing like the access to the kind of global muscle that you do when you're part of a coalition. And so, yeah, coalitions are always a massive pain in the ass, but they tend to win in the end. And therefore, the diplomacy, the stress, there is inefficiency there. You end up having to deploy too many troops spending too much money, but you're going to win. You're not going to end up with Cossacks, drinking their horses, feeding their horses in the Thames, which trust me, you do not want, right?

So that is, and Britain fights one war in the 18th century, it's kind of period of, and it's kind of, you know, Britain imperial history, a sort of your 200-year spell, if you like, from sort of 1750 to the end of the Second World War. And one war without any allies, and that is the American Revolutionary War, and Britain gets ass-handed to it in America, right?

So because it's very hard to win and when large alliances kind of pooled together. And those alliances are inefficient now. People fall out and you end up shooting each other's planes by mistake and you get angry at each other. But ultimately they win. And you need to think about that with NATO and Europe today, friends. That's the end of my thought.

Absolutely. Can I ask one more question about Battle of Waterloo? Well, when I went there, one of the best museums I've ever been to, actually, at the Battle of Waterloo, what really struck me was the weaponry used in that battle. is unimaginably brutal, like so much maiming,

grape shot, the cannons and the stories of how people died in the, and in one of the books I read, the scenes after the battle late at night where it's just the whole field is just moaning, the soldiers like Gunders. In terms of the weaponry, do you think it's like,

is it one of the worst, inverted commas, battles of all time? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, humans, obviously, our ability to kill and hurt each other is just, it reaches new, bounds. We push new frontiers all the time. I mean, so the big issue in that period is these low velocity musket balls will sort of enter your, but you fire them at 50 metres range. The British

guards stand up. Wellington shouts, now, Maitland, now's your time. And he's the guards commander. And then the guards jump up these elite British troops out of the kind of long, the crops. And like Jason and the Argonauts, soldiers coming from dragon's teeth. And the French are reaching across this hill, the French Imperial Guard never been defeated before on the battlefield. and they just go, oh, Jesus. That's my favourite bit in the battle. And the Brits in these thin red lines, where we get the expression from,

it looks thin, but the point is everyone can bring their muskets to bear. So you've only got two or three ranks deep, but everyone is able to bring fire upon the French. And so these musket balls are smashing into it 50 metres, 100 metres range. They are causing kind of catastrophic injuries. They are taking in lots of muck that's on your uniforms. that's just in the grubby hands and the people loading the weapons,

hygiene, really poor. So they are going to fester. They're taking bits of cotton in from clothing, which is a wool. You are then closing, so then they fire a couple of volleys into them. The French Imperial Guard falter, they kind of halt in their steps,

and then you close with the bayonets, and then you're talking about razor-sharp steel, sort of 15 or so inches of it. You know, that's obviously like medieval wounds, you know, stabbing, cutting, hacking wounds. And then, as you say, there's also kind of the beginnings of that kind of modern artillery war that we

recognise now, you know, firing at range, lethal some exploding shells, cannonballs that bounce along and decapitate people. At the Battle of Colloden in the last pitch battle on British soil, 7046, so you go, the guy, the British gun crew, the British gun crew, the British gunners are charging until they can see literally the whites their eyes, and then the British gun crew, he touches that burning match, that linstock to the powder on top of

the breach of the cannon, it sends a spark, a tongue of flame down and to ignite the main charge in the barrel below. And that ignites and that sends just a bundle of scrap metal to use those highlanders. You know, musket balls, but also any old scrap they could find. And that's subsonic, but it's just enough to destroy at close range, people being flayed and horrendous. And then as you say that in the evening, you know, no, no,

I mean, there's very, very primitive health care. The best they could do was to chop a limb off if it was, if the bones were smashed and it looked like there would be a high risk which there always was of infection setting in

and if blood for example was unable to reach you know to reach the extremities they would just lose you'd just chop an arm or a leg off a lower leg or so and that was done

without an aesthetic that was done as the day goes on those so those soars get very blunt famously so you so great the surgeons are really having to give it loads of beans

Would that also be slightly to do with a lack of time as well? Are they having to just... Of course, yeah. They're just people coming. Yeah. So I've been involved in an excavation by a wonderful organisation called Waterloon Coverd, who have excavated one of the sort of, it seems to be one of the areas where they just through the limbs.

So you've got lots of smashed limbs. No way. They've been chopped off. Yeah, really interesting. And then the rest of them on the fields are just getting their throats cut by locals, by peasants, women with knives, kitchen knives, just chopping the throat, stealing wallets. People's worldly possessions are on them. There's no banks

for normal people. You've got your coins, you've got your maybe you've got some, I don't know, a ring or something. Imagine being shot at and you've lost your wallet. Yeah, no, that's right. Well, no, but there are accounts of guys in astonishing pain with bodies on them, being

robbed and then surviving and telling the tail and luckily not getting their throat cut. But yeah, no, they're being robbed. They say, oh, come and help me. And they can't get home again because they haven't got their oyster card anymore. I know, exactly. Wow. No, I mean, it's terrible.

So this is a big question of military stories. Like, what is that? I mean, obviously the First World War is unimaginable. Yeah. I think Ukraine today is pretty bad. But, like, what, and so what is the worst? You know, how bad, you know, Nelson takes an expedition into Central America where nearly everyone dies.

Like, it's about 85% mortality. But most die of tropical diseases, nearly all. And, you know, you think, well, is that worse, weird, than the Battle of the Song? Yeah. When everyone's being machine-goat. Like, it's hard. I mean, it's terrifying. It's terrifying.

You mentioned briefly, so the bullets passing through the uniform and that, then infecting the wound because of the dirtiness. So were the uniforms providing any protection in waterline? No, they're just cloth, are they? Is that really what it is? No, the cavalryman had those kyrass. They had a sort of shiny breastplates, which was sort of partly for show and to terrify the enemy. But no, they couldn't stop a bullet. So, no, no, the infantryman had no defensive clothing whatsoever.

No. So that's the end of part one of our chat with the brilliant Dan Snow. If you'd like part two straight away right now, add free, then you can go to patreon.com forward slash oh, what a time. To support the show and become an oh what a time, full timer. You'll also get access to our entire back catalogue of subscriber-only episodes, including our special. We've just done on the History of the World Cup.

We also do a video show full of clips. of jobs from history. There's lots there should you choose to join up. Either way, we will see you tomorrow for part two of Dan Snow. Oh, Whatter Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the Oh Whatter Time group chat. Plus, if you become an O Water Time All-Timer, myself Tom and Ellis will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash oh what a time.