Oh What A Time... - #194 Captains (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!Ahoy captains! We’re back after our summer break and this week we’re discussing Captains! We have for you this week, the big one: Captain Cook. Another huge captain in Captain Scott. And finally, then unbelievable true story of Captain Anderson.Elsewhere, so much going on. How longs have humans been around? How clammy are Tom’s hands? Wasn’t there a lot of walking in the past? If you’ve got anything to add on this (especially Tom’s clammy hands) please do: [e-mail] if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, What a Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the Oh Watertime Group chat. Plus if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime.

Hello and welcome to Part 2. of captains. Let's get on with the show. Now, if you ever happen to be in Cardiff, keep an eye up for a statue near the Norwegian church, which is down in Cardiff Bay. And the statue, it's an amazing way, it shows a team of men holding a sledge through the snow

and the main figure, the principal figure, is Captain Scott. So initially, I think a lot of people aren't sure why he's commemorated in Cardiff, but, you know, he should be, as you'll be able to tell, from this topic. Now, Robert Falcon Scott, aka Scott of the Antarctic, born in Plymouth from the 6th of June, 1868. I really hope that's how he introduced himself with the AKA as a yeah, yeah, aka Scott of the Antarctic. You've probably heard of me. He was the son of John Edward

Scott, a prosperous Bruin, his wife, Hano, came from Stoke-Dameral, which isn't far from Plymouth. So like so many residents of Plymouth, he had naval ancestry. So going to sea was basically an expectation of him and his brothers. So he was educated locally at a bowling school in Hampshire and eventually at the Royal Navy's training ship, HMS Britannia, and at the age of 13 became a naval cadet. Were you a naval cadet, Tom? 13.

I had, what's the second rung of beavers and scouts and that sort of stuff? Cubs. Cubs, yeah. I had left Cubs by them because a bigger boy threw me in a mulberry bush. Okay. And we were on a cub camping trip, and after that it was too much for me. I knew kids who did cadets.

Did you do cadets, Chris? I just couldn't be asked. Did beavers' cubs and scouts and then knocked on the head? What was cadets then? What was that? Cadet was like a sort of navy version. Was it? That was an option. So what did you go sailing? It seemed to be a lot of marching and all that kind of stuff.

Now, qualified in 1883, left the Britannia, a midshipman, joined the crew of HMS Budica. And so began the progression through the ranks. He was in South Africa and in the Caribbean. So by 1889, he was a lieutenant. And within a decade, he was on his way towards command. Now, it was this chance meeting in 1890, the then-in-the-then-president of the Royal Geographical Society, Clement Markham,

that changed his life. So the Royal Geographical Society was planning a voyage to the Antarctic. After you discussed it with Markham, Scott volunteered to captain the expedition to be formerly known as the British National Antarctic Expedition. Wow. So the discovery, which was now his ship, left England on the 6th of August 1901, bound for New Zealand, arriving there on the 29th of November.

Bloody hell. August to November. That's just the trip to New Zealand. Sixth of August, he left. He got them on the 29th of November. So what is that? That's August, September, October. It's for three months, basically, isn't it?

That's the easy bit. Yeah. After a short period in Littleton on the South Island, he then sailed for Cape Adair in Antarctica. arriving there early January in 1902. God, it was the bloody summer when he left. If I was part of ship design, or at least involving these voyages, at a point someone's got to put their hand up and go, look, we're away for three years at a time. We need to make these ships more fun.

There has to be a section, which is a bit like a P&O ferry, where there's something, table, football, just something. Can we play paddle? Exactly. It's a big ship, just designate a certain area to relaxing. It can't all be sort of swabbing the decks and survival. I would have loved to have seen what Captain Scott and Captain Cook would make of these big massive cruise ships you get now where they've got slides going round and round coming off the side of the boat

and big swimming pools at the back and karaoke rooms and live club entertainment in the bowels of the ship. Oh, yeah, the club bit, yeah. Can you imagine Captain Scott on that? I'd love that. Tweed Exploration, Scott. initially surveyed the icy landscape using a hot air balloon. Okay, yeah.

Now, for the next year, Scott's crew, together with the scientists they brought with them, lived in Antarctica. It's always nice to include one extra bit of transport. It's even more risky than the first, isn't it? Yeah, you did it on an e-scooter. How's he getting up and down, though? Well, I guess you'd go up from the deck, wouldn't it, I guess? Yeah, and then what about it?

How should you land it back on the deck? That's absolutely mad. I suppose it could be attached to a rope. Oh, it's ice. It's on the ice. It's on the ice. land it on the ice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, they studied the landscape and the wildlife, not least a colony of Emperor Penguins. It's funny, we can go, you know, two and a half years without mentioning penguins, and now we've mentioned them twice in the last 15 minutes, and various astronomical phenomena. But they also created a newspaper at South Pole at Times, edited by Enoch Lachlton,

and played regular football matches. They put on theatrical productions, and in Scott and Shackleton's case, tried to reach the South Pole together with Edward Wilson. Now, sadly, that attempt failed. I hope they brought one of those orange balls, Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Chelsea versus Tromso.

In the 80s, yeah. Exactly. Now, in all, the discovery spent two years in Antarctica, the ship leaving for New Zealand, accompanied by two relief vessels the morning and the Terra Nova on the 17th of February 1904. They finally

returned home that September, and Cook was promoted, having been made commander at the start of the exhibition. He was now a captain and greeted by King Edward the 7th at Balmoral Castle in Scotland. God, meet him in London, for God's sick. He's got to move away to Scotland to meet the King. Well, I suppose once you've been around like that thought,

at the end of the world and back, you're like, oh, yeah, it doesn't matter, is it? I'll do a bit about moral. Now, as with Cook's voyages in the Pacific, the key outcome of the trip was a fresh series of charts and maps, together with enhanced understanding the world's southernmost continent. So Wilson was able to publish a paper on the medical effects of fresh seal me too, which he discovered counteracted the effects of scurvy, though the precise reason, namely the deficiency of vitamin C,

wasn't identified to leave for the Second World War. Now, Scott, he was now a national hero, so he resumed his career with the Royal Navy. Nowadays, he'd be doing TV shows. He'd be on Jonathan Ross, so Graham Norton now, but he resumed his career with the Royal Navy, but was increasingly compelled by the idea of returning to the Antarctic and reaching the geographic South Pole.

Now, he would take until 1910 for that ambition, or the journey at least, to be realised in the form of the Terra Nova Expedition. Unlike the discovery, which said from cow, the Terra Nova converted whaling ship, which had previously plied its trade in the waters of the North Atlantic, left from what was at this point

the most important coal port in the world, Cardiff. This association was sealed by significant donations from local industrialists and by the use of Welsh steam coal, itself the best in the world, and blocks of patent fuel on board. So from Lennelie as well came the various pots and pans used by the crew. And to say thank you, Scott, in Christen Cardiff, the home of the Terranova.

Ah. So they left on the 50th of June 1910, but only after a big 13-course slap-up meal. Amazing. And ceremony held at the Royal Hotel in St Mary Street in the city centre. I've done, on our anniversary as you and I, we did a 10-course tasting menu. Yeah.

But I don't think that this would have been a tasting menu. I think it just would have been 13 big plates of food. I don't love multiple course tasting menus. Claire and I did one on our honeymoon in Paris, which is lots of very small things. And on the way home, we got a McDonald's. That's not a lie. We did.

I was starving. Oh, I was full at the end of mine. I was full when we did ours. A collection of dishes which were the size of an atom, basically. I know this sounds like very boring stand-up on something which people would say about posh dining, but it was like, just incredibly small meals that were not suitable for anything bigger than a hamster.

Oh, no, no, I was... Actually, I'm not going to say that, but I was so full, I couldn't... I couldn't celebrate her anniversary. I had to have a very long lie down and be left alone. You couldn't muster. Nowhere near. That's amazing. I had like four puddings.

I was like, just some, you know, it's not you, it's me. but this is we're miles off we're I'll actually say we're days off it's quite simply not going to happen pencil of fortnight Wednesday yeah I mean I'll shake your hand to say thanks for sticking with me

through the good times and the bad times but yeah there'll be absolutely enough that I went away with soap once on a romantic romantic weekend away and remember the third course was it was like a melted cookie dough thing. It was like ice cream cookie dough

like with the rich, rich chocolate sauce through it. It was the heaviest densest thing, sweetest thing I've ever eaten. And like an absolute idiot, I ate all of it. And then I was, like,

it just had to lie down for hours. I had to get, get back to a hotel room and take all my clothes off and just lie. And just wait for the feet. I've never felt like it. I felt like I was dying.

What a sexy image there for our listeners. That's, It's the fact you took your clothes off. I love that. Don't talk to me. Don't even look at me. I just need to process this. I need to shut down.

I had a couple of starters. Eight first courses and four put things outside. Don't even look at me! Don't take of me. Don't look at me. Stop feasting your eyes all over me. It's now your turn to talk about when you've been too full to have sex. Claire and I went for a 22 course pacing menu and then we had sex for four and a half hours afterwards.

And we did 43 different positions And I was great at all of them Anyway, back to the history Half of them I invented mid-flow Okay, just keep going Let's get back to the history, come on This is a proper show We had Dan Snow on last week

Oh my God Yeah Nothing can stop Tom when he's in his stride Absolutely, yeah So they'd have this big slap up meal at the Royal Hotel and St Mary Street. You know, the building's still there. If you don't fancy going to No Niels,

which is nearby, that doesn't distract you. A hotel building is still there, and you can still go inside and visit the Oak Panelled Captain Scott Room. Now, everyone knows what happened next. Scotland in the Antarctic in January 1911, not long for he encountered the simultaneous and ultimately successful Norwegian expedition led by Roald Amundsen.

The Norwegians would in the end, Pipscott to the Post, reached the Geographic South Pole on the 14th of December 1911, the first in history to do so. Scott's own expedition reached the poll on the 17th of January 1912, just over a month later, after a really torrid time of hunger, illness and frostbite. No wonder then that Scott was to write the poll.

Yes, but under very different circumstances from those expected, Great God, this is an awful place and terrible enough for us to have laboured to wait without the reward of priority. Well, it is something to have got here. Oh, wow. Now, the return home went from Baltimore. So as Scott's comrades succumbed to the elements, among them Lawrence Oates, Captain Oates who famously sacrificed himself so that his teammates might survive.

Scott recorded Oates' final words as, I'm just going outside and I may be some time. I still say that occasionally. I said that after that big chocolatey dessert on my rope, Randy, you're getting away. Ellis, locking the toilet door. I'm just going here, Izzy, and I might be sometime. That was on the 17th of March 17th, 12th. Scott's own last words, at least the last he wrote, were penned on the 29th March. We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker, of course, and the end cannot be far.

It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. Our Scott, last entry, for God's sake, look after our people. When news reached Britain with the loss of the Scott and the Terra Nova Explorers, there was great sadness. And in Cardiff, there was a decision to establish a fitting memorial. So that was the light-up clock that's situated in the middle of the lake in Routh Park, which is in Cardiff. It was unveiled on the 15th of October 191919 in the last weeks of the First World War. Wow. Amazing. Heartbreaking. Scott's got a bit of that cook thing.

Yeah. But for some reason, around like 1900 to 1950, we were just obsessed with these achievements that didn't really mean anything. Like being the first to go to the South Pole, trying to climb ever. It's climb Everest, yeah. I thought we just lost our minds for a bit. Edmund Hillary was from New Zealand and Sherpetensing was from Nepal. Yeah. And yet, for some reason, Britain got the credit for that.

I've never quite understood. It might have been a British expedition. What do you think is braver, that spirit of exploration, I'm going out into the unknown or the cook situation where I know how horrendous this place is going to be, but I'm aware of what I'm going to. I'm going into the horror, the cold. I know what I'm going into. There are two different things, that are unknown or the known horror, basically.

Or once a week, every Monday at about 4pm, rain or shine, knowing you've got to podcast. Yeah. You've got to do a history podcast with your French Christmas on, regardless of how, whether you fancy it, whether you're busy with other stuff. You always show up 4pm Monday from home next to your bedroom. What's braver? Where are our statues, El? How do you think it would go down with our wives, if we said? listen, we need to go on a podcasting adventure.

I'll see you in three years. And I might die. I might die. But don't worry, when it's over, I'll come back for a year. But then I'm going for another three years. Cair would flick on whatever series of Real Housewives of Arkansas, whatever it is that she's into the moment on the telly, kick back with a G&T as they see you with three years.

Izzy would immediately leave me and say, That's not good enough. All right. This is an absolutely fascinating nuclear submarine operation that I knew nothing about. This is an incredible story. So the start of this story is that in October 1957, the Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite into orbit. The United States suddenly found itself losing the emerging space race. Sputnik was small, but its symbolism was enormous.

the USSR had reached space first. So what did the Americans do to respond? Well, the White House under President Eisenhower needed something spectacular, a demonstration that America could still do things that the Soviets couldn't, and the answer came from beneath the sea. Now, we've talked on this podcast

about a lot of firsts, like the first person to go lips to tea. I wouldn't want to be the first captain on a nuclear-powered submarine. That really nascent, technology. God no. It's submarine anyway in 2026. I wouldn't necessarily fancy. But the first nuclear-powered submarine was the USS Nautilus commissioned by the United States Navy. And that came out in September 1954. Boy oh boy. It's so right. There's so many things to be scared about

there. Like some sense of radiation poisoning, some extent that it could all explode at any moment and destroy half the continent you're in. The fact you're in a submarine alone is bad enough in the ocean is scary. Nuclear submarine sounds bad. It just sounds bad. But I didn't realize what a difference that nuclear submarines made

because previously, until you had nuclear submarines, you had diesel submarines and these could stay submerged for just like hours. The Nautilus was powered by a small onboard nuclear reactor,

which meant that you could stay submerged for months. So not only is this nascent, scary technology, but you're also at the bottom of the ocean for months and months and months. The USS Nautilus didn't need to surface for air or fuel, and also it could travel much further and faster than anything else in the ocean.

Does that, I mean, I could imagine getting just about putting up with a nuclear submarine that would have to pop up every few hours, but the idea of being underneath the sea in 1954 for months on end is terrifying. I wouldn't go in a submarine. I said I wouldn't go in one. It's not for you.

I think there's pretty much everything. I could see myself just about stomach and going on hot or air balloons or that, but I think that is the mode of transport that I could not make myself go into and travel. I just find it too scary, too claustrophobic. Not for me. Who are you, Elle?

Elle's really weighing this up. I've never given it any thought and no I'm giving it some thought. It sounds horrible. The infinite darkness, the ocean, ah, it's so horrible. No, no, no, no, no. No, no. No, not happening.

Drum of the Kursk, the Russian submarine and they all died on it. That new story really frightened me. So yeah, no, I'm out. You're honest. We'll remain on dry land, okay, far away. Very impressed you do a hot air balloon. I wouldn't do that for 100 grand. Oh, really?

Okay. 110 grand. So the Nautilus's new commander was William Robert Anderson. And interestingly, for a nuclear submarine commander, he comes from landlocked Tennessee. It's funny, like, with Captain Scots from Plymouth, it was like a lot of the big Navy guys tend to be through history.

They tend to come from like Navy towns. But to get, to become commander of the first nuclear submarine when you're from Tennessee is incredible. William Anderson's father worked in the sawmilling business. Anderson went to military school in Columbia, Tennessee, and then he joined the United States Naval Academy. He graduated in 1942, which is, of course, just in time for a big old World War. He served on submarines throughout the Second World War.

Here you went aboard vessels such as the USS Tarpon and the USS NARW. In the Korean War, he commanded the USS Wahoo. Great names. Great names for submarines. Tarp and NARWA. Yeah, great. By the time you took charge of the Nautilus, Anasim was one of the most experienced submariners in the US Navy.

So the plan that the Americans developed to counter the technological advances of Sputnik was called Operation Sunshine. And that name is deliberately vague because they want to disguise the purpose. So initially, they basically want to do something really impressive with this nuclear submarine that is going to grab headlines and show how advanced America is. So initially they considered sending the Nautilus and her sister ship, the USS Skate, on a submerged circumnavigation of the globe.

But Anderson himself had a better idea. Why not go under the North Pole? No vessel had ever crossed the pole under the Arctic ice cap. The idea sounds mad. And of course you couldn't do it until you had a nuclear submarine because you would have to be popping up every few hours on a diesel submarine, But now it's possible because you've got a nuclear submarine that could be submerged almost indefinitely. But it could also navigate the frozen waters of the Arctic that had previously defeated almost every earlier explorer.

So the idea was pitched and the White House loved it. The Nautilus made her first attempt. Oh my God, I'm going to feel unwell. Yeah. Also, I don't know how this ends as well. So I have no idea if we're heading towards an absolute horror show. Are you feeling confident? We never read each other's research.

So this is, we're hearing this for the first time, Tom and I. I'm completely on centre-hooked. I think I'm going to have a panic at second. I couldn't believe this story. So the Nautilus makes the first attempt on the 19th of August, 1957. This is actually before Sputnik's even launched. So what they go there, they're going to try it and go under the North Pole, but the problem is the Arctic ice is thicker and deeper than they expected,

and it had too little clearance underneath. So they said, this is a stupid idea, let's just give it up. and just go around the Caribbean or something like that. So they had to turn back and the mission was postponed to the following summer and the scientific data gathered on this first probe was used to plan the next. But in the meantime, on the 4th of October 1957,

the Soviets send up Sputnik, so the pressure to deliver a response just intensified. So in the summer of 1958, the Nautilus was officially reassigned to Arctic patrol duties as a cover story. In reality, she was directed to Pearl Harbor. symbolically loaded with meaning from where she would begin her second attempt at the pole. Interesting.

The plan was straightforward on paper. You're going to sail through the Bering Strait, past point barrow off the Alaskan coast, so the West Coast of America, then head north under the ice pack until you reach the pole and then continue on over the top of the earth to emerge in the Atlantic near Iceland. Wow. And eventually dock into Iceland. So on the third of all... By heartbreaking to be sort of looking out the little...

windows, if there are windows at Hawaii going into the distance, fell harbour, as you're heading towards going under the North Pole. Windows on a sub, Tom. I don't know. They must be so.

Are there circular windows? Or that maybe they're up. Portals. Portals. Is that what they are? I don't mean like a balance. No, we don't have windows on a sub, you maniac. Are they not?

But if I draw one, you see the front of the Beatles album? That's got windows. If I draw a submarine, it's got windows. The yellow submarine had windows. but it wasn't nuclear-powered, was it, the Arab submarine. It was powered by psychedelian and acid. By love.

Yeah, love, yeah. What do you expect to see out of a submarine window? Some carp. A sub carp, is that, a whale? Shopping trolley, if you go down the Thames. A pirate's cutlass? Yeah, is that pretty on? Nefer.

A good enough piece of gold. The little mermaid? Yeah, there you go. I've answered your question. All right, okay, fine. So on the 3rd of August, 1958, a Sunday, the Nautilus actually reached the North Pole. Anderson had time to write two letters before signing them at the moment of the crossing. The first was addressed to Mamie Eisenhower, the first lady, and the official sponsor of the vessel.

He wrote, it is my hope that Nautilus will always serve as a tribute to our country and to you. I shall feel that you were very near to us when I signed this letter within seconds of passing under the North Pole. He signed that letter at 2315pm Eastern Daylight Time. The second letter was addressed to President Eisenhower himself. Two days later on the 5th of August, the North Ellis emerged from the Ice Pack. And on 8th of August, she docked off the coast of Iceland. The mission was complete. It's incredible, isn't it?

So did it manage to go all the way under? Went underneath. They found that they recalculate the route on the second time. Second time around, they went under the North Pole out over to Iceland. The White House was just over the moon. Press releases pointed out that the Nautilus's 116 strong crew men the more human beings had been present at the North Pole simultaneously than at any other moment in history.

One crewman, technician James R. Sordelet, briefly left the Navy shortly before the past so that he could re-enlist under the pole, making him the first person ever to sign up to the US military at the top of the world. Love it. The adrenaline when they came home must have been off the scale. It's an incredible achievement.

It's such a good idea. I know literally a few minutes ago, I was like, oh, the age of exploration, they set themselves crazy targets. But this feels like a good one. I'm really excited by this story. The Navy also revealed a few more of the prosaic details of life on board between leaving Pearl Harbor on the 23rd of July and arriving in Iceland on the 8th of August.

The crew watched 38 films. They kept the onboard. jukebox running almost continuously and they ate a celebratory meal at the pole itself consisting of steak, French fries, creamed peas, carrots, fruit salad, bread and North Pole cake. Now, this I like.

This is fine. This is fine, isn't it? And they're just living like they've got a hangover. Yeah. Watching films and eating kick. I mean, I'm surprised in some ways I haven't heard of this before because the public at the time absolutely loved

it. There was a... Anderson and his crew were given a ticker tape parade down Broadway in New York where an estimated 250,000 spectators came out to catch a glimpse of the captain. Anderson appeared on the cover of Life magazine. Newspapers dubbed him the Captain Nemo of the 20th century. Anderson himself refused to accept the hero treatment. He pointed out that other explorers had reached the pole under far more brutal conditions. He said, when we thought about the people who did it the hard way with dog sleds over ice against incredible wind and low temperature, we just felt like our way was easy. And it is, to be fair.

Wow. Now I'm reading this, I'm actually coming around to the idea of this trip being actually good fun. I wouldn't say it's easy, though. I mean, you've nodded and said, yeah, to it being easy there, Skull. You're still having to go under the North Pole and submarine. But they got away with it. He did get away with it. Yeah, they got away with it.

And as long as you can, as long as it doesn't go wrong, it's, it is. Obviously easier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Captain Scott wasn't watching films and eating steak of chips, was he? He was eating his dogs. And then all his mates died. Easier, but in the context of many jobs, still a little tricky. It's harder than podcast.

I mean, they have watched 38 films and listen to music. I haven't watched 38 films in the last five years, I don't think. Fair enough. In 1959, Anderson co-wrote a book about the mission, Nautilus 90 North, with journalist Clay Blair. Near the end of his life, he returned to the story with the second book, The Ice Diaries, published in 2008. Anderson himself retired from the Navy in 1962, moves into public life. That same year, he ran as an independent in the Tennessee-Guba National Election, finishing second to the Democrat Frank Clement,

and he was later brought in to advise President Kennedy on the creation of the Peace Corps, the government agency that sent young American volunteers overseas to work on development projects. In 1964, Anderson ran successfully for the US House of Representatives representing Tennessee's 6th District as a Democrat. He would serve for nearly a decade until his defeat by Republican Robin Beard in November 1972. Interesting post-life. During his years in Congress, Anderson turned out to be a considerably more liberal Democrat than most people expected of a Tennessee Democrat. He became an outspoken critic of the Vietnam War, particularly after visiting South Vietnam in 1970. He supported the civil rights legislation shaping the country in the 1960s.

And when he died in 2007, he was remembered primarily for what he had done under the Arctic ice half a century earlier, one of the most audacious naval missions of the Cold War and one of the very few American answers to Spartanik that actually landed. Yeah, it's incredible. And it's interesting, he's a good Wikipedia. page to go have a look at because his life after is every bit as interesting as what he did

under the North Pole. Really, really interesting. As a final fact, Chris, it turns out there's a sort of middle ground in our window discussion as to who is correct. Because it says here that certain Russian and Soviet submarines do have windows, but only on the sail, which is the vertical tower on top of the boat, and they're used only when the submarines are on the surface. So I don't know if we want to say that we're all right or we're all wrong, we've got to choose, or just a middle ground, none of us are really...

So the yellow submarine was a Soviet submarine. Well, no, because that had portholes along the side, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, so it can't have been. It's only the tip. Had it had a window at the tip, then it would be the Soviet submarine. But there you are.

It's the only reason a submarine would have one of the... Are you referring to the periscope? I'm not. And I can hold you up a picture here. There you are. They're holding up to our screen. Look at the...

Oh, like, okay. So it is. So it's like a little window. at the top? At the very top, a little window for... But when it comes up, you can have a look around, check if you home or whatever. I don't know what people do. Very good.

Exactly. There you go. Can I say that was one of my favourite episodes we've done a long time. That was really, really interesting. Thank you, Dr. Darrell Leeworthy for his fantastic research there. I loved all three parts of that. I thought that was a genuinely fascinating episode. And you really pulled it back off to Clammy Handsgate, Tom.

I cannot impress enough upon our listeners quite how dry my palm is. They really are. It's absolutely like they've been left out in the sun for a fortnight. I don't mean I've been sweating. I mean, I've just, I've just forget it. I've got dry hands. Thank you so much for listening, guys. And if you've enjoyed the show and if you enjoy the show generally, one thing that can really help, if you don't mind me asking, is leaving us a five-star review and writing something nice about us on your podcast app. That makes a huge difference of the show, helps spread the word, helps more. and more people hear about my clammy hands. We will see you very, very soon for yet more podcast fun. Bye-bye. Bye.

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