Oh What A Time... - #2 Laws

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

This week we're discussing: Laws. Why did the Qin Dynasty and Ancient Rome have such a problem with crying? Why should you fear the 'Meat Police' in 14th century Britain? And what are the tax implications of being a bearded bachelor throughout history? This first series will contain 12 episodes that we’ll be releasing weekly; you can look forward to topics such as humour, marriage, sport, a life at sea, parenting, partying, pets, and lots more. And thank you so much for your support for the podcast since our launch last week. If you like it, why not drop us a review in Latin? We'll read out our favourites next week. If you’d like to get in touch with the show (perhaps to tell us when was the worst period in history or if we've INEVITABLY got something wrong) you can email us at: [e-mail] We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @ohwhatatimepod And thank you to Dr Daryl Leeworthy for his help with this week’s research. And thank you for the artwork by Dan Evans (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Eligibility and member terms apply. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was as awful as it seems. I'm Ellis James. I'm Tom Crane. And I'm Chris Scull. Each week we're looking at a brand new subject. And this episode we're going to be discussing laws. From cruel punishments for crying in ancient Rome to bizarre 14th century food laws before finally the weirdest beard and bachelor laws

throughout history. And this is episode two of oh what a time our history podcast which was in the uk for a few days this week the number one history podcast in the land how does dan snow feel about this well i uh i met him once he was uh we were both backstage at an awards ceremony he seemed like a really really nice bloke immediately thrust out his hand uh by way of greeting, I said, Hello, I'm Dan, nice to meet you. I just stared at him.

And that stare said, My tanks are on your lawn, Dan. I'm coming for you. I am coming for that coveted number one history podcast in the UK for a bit slot. Those tanks may not stay on your lawn for more than a week and they may sort of, you know, they'll go further into the distance as the weeks go away

and then you'll have your lawn back. Your lawn will be completely yours by week three. But for that first week... Genuinely, thank you so much for all the support and for getting back behind the show and telling your friends. It's kind of, it's amazing, Chris. It really matters.

What's the other thing they need to do? What do they need to do? They need to leave a five star review and subscribe of course i thought it was going to be something like you know go on to dan snow's law and intimidate him or look him no no no no don't do that leave dan out of this for god's sake he's done nothing wrong for god's sake nice bloke um but yeah leave a leave a rating review why not if you've enjoyed it five so it really helps it really helps us keep up the good fight to

remain on the lawn of Dan Snow so yeah thank you we actually asked for you to leave some reviews on in Latin last week and some of you brilliant listeners did do that do you

want to guess what this means Valde Ridiculum Informatavim Pod Alium Magnum Additionum Ad Jacobum Tormentum. Do you want to guess what that is? An informative, ridiculous podcast. Very, very handsome men should go into face mumbling.

How close? Ridiculum Informatum. Don't need Google Translate for that, mate. Genuinely impressive, Ellis. It was a very funny, informative pod. And another great addition to Jacob's arsenal. I didn't realise that the word pod was much used in Latin. So, Chris.

Thank you for all your emails as well. Kelsey Lauren Ellington has been on saying, why don't you do an episode on the Yorkshire Boggart? A kind of malevolent beast from folklore that resides in yorkshire that's a that's a really good idea and what that's a super creative idea yeah i love that mark mccready's been on what about transport keep those emails coming in guys hello at oh what a time pod.com send in your episode ideas we're definitely going to pick up on a few of them in future send in your episode ideas and any periods of history you find particularly interesting

absolutely because i think the three of us are stuck in a rut it's episode two so if you want to get in touch with the show here is award-winning actor david bradley to tell you how all right you horrible lot here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh, what a time dot com. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh, what a time pod. Now clear off. So, laws-wise, this week, what are we looking at? Chris, what are you looking at?

I'm discussing punishments for crying in ancient Roman China during the Qin Dynasty. And I will be talking about bizarre and unfair 14th century food laws. There's a lot of them and they're weird. And Ellis? And I will be discussing the strangest, weirdest beard and bachelor laws throughout history. Perfect. Let's do it. weirdest beard and bachelor laws throughout history perfect let's do it okay so this week we're talking about laws i'm talking specifically about laws against crying in public specifically in ancient rome and imperial china's founding qin dynasty tears

were regarded as a public nuisance and so banned, with various punishments accompanying the prohibition, ranging from fines to the humiliation of having one's eyebrows shaved off. Well, like they're on a rugby trip. Like you've fallen foul to the naughty boys at the back of the minibus. Okay, so this is a Chinese punishment, but around when, Chris? Well, here we go. I'm going to walk through it. We'll start in ancient Rome.

The Twelve Tables of Rome, a list of Roman citizens' rights and duties published in 449 BC, outlawed crying and weeping for women at funerals. Table X, or I'm going to trot out some Roman for you now. at funerals table x or i'm going to trot out some roman for you now table 10 commanded that women shall not tear their cheeks nor shall they stephen fry isn't it women shall not tear their cheeks nor shall they utter loud cries bewailing the dead now apparently the roman law was designed to prevent, get this, professional actors from being employed to amplify displays of grief at funerals, all part of the competition for and presentation of status in the Republic.

So people were hiring professional actors to mourn in obviously the most emotive ways imaginable as part of a kind of a presentation of status for the deceased. Yeah, I'll be doing that. That's my dying wish, in fact. I want a thousand actors at my funeral, all weeping, screaming. The funeral of a North Korean dictator. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What sort of level actor as well? Are they sort of like ITV drama minimum? Are you looking... Oscar winners. Oscar winners. All Oscar winners. Oscar winners. I want them all to be wailing and screaming a version of,

he was such a gifted podcaster. Yeah. This is such a shame. It was a newish medium when he got involved with it and he was, obviously he wasn't the first he'd been going for about 10 years before he dipped his toe in, but my god

what such an instinctive podcaster they're yelling that are they? all 1000 are yelling it's not like a set script, it's just they improv around the idea of the fact that you were a good podcaster that's the note It's not like a set script. It's just they improv around the idea of the fact that you were a good podcast. That's the note.

That's the note. I'll see. Just, you know, you're all talented people. Well, you know, like they're hiring professional actors to mourn at a funeral. Do you think there's a casting day? Do you think some actors are auditioning? Do you think certain actors have the reputation for really bawling their eyes out yeah it's funny isn't it because it's obviously there are certain parts in dramas or sitcoms or any acting role

where you need a certain look and i've always thought that if you then turn up to the audition room and there's like 12 people next to you who all look a little bit like you and you're like oh okay right i uh i get it i'm i'm i'm that bloke i'm sort of yeah i'm i'm i'm scraggly ill guy here are the other 11 scraggly ill guys my my type whenever i did auditions was always just like quite an average generic man but there wasn't anything particular it was just like, you know, secondary person walking past in the background of a Kellogg's advert, who's not really going to distract you from the serial. I used to get, positive and Welsh was my one.

And someone sent me a casting breakdown the other day, and it said, we would like the person who gets this role to be positive and Welsh, a bit like Ellis James. And I thought, well, give me the bloody role then. I'll do it. I haven't got anything on. A bit like Ellis James. Not completely like Ellis James.

Yeah, yeah. A bit like Ellis James. I mean, I'm interviewing actors who are going to cry at my funeral. I've got literally nothing on. What was the logic behind this? So they felt the outpouring of grief was just sort of like... It was unseemly. Unseemly, too theatrical.

Okay, really. Okay, right. Yeah. So what's interesting about it, it was just women. By contrast, men were allowed to cry whenever they liked, and often did so in times of heightened political tension. Julius Caesar is said to have famously wept before his troops before crossing the Rubicon in 49 BC. Right.

Now, that is interesting that it's permissible for the lads and not the women. Yeah, in ancient Rome. I find any rules, whenever we've discussed stuff like this on this podcast, any rule that's sort of based around the suppression of emotion, I find quite odd because if I'm going to cry, I'm going to cry. I've never been able to stop it.

Yeah, absolutely. Hence, some difficult years at secondary school. I am a crier and I go further than that. I'd say that actually I quite enjoy a cry sometimes. When you're having sex. I'm just so moved by the fact it's actually happening. So I will watch, I will seek out programmes like Secret Millionaire

and Claire will always say, will point at me and say, oh, he's gone. And there's always a point where I start to cry. And more than that, my favourite YouTube videos are, I like watching videos of soldiers returning from war and surprising their kids at school.

So they'll open the book and their kid will look up from the desk and their dad's back from wherever and they hug in his tear central. And that makes me cry. And I actively seek this stuff out because I find it sort of weirdly cathartic to cry. I think there's nothing wrong with that, Tom. Thank you. Since I've had kids, I've cried a lot more. And it's very embarrassing, though, what I cry about.

It tends to be sport. Sporting montages will make me cry. A very good key change in a pop song. Oh. Normally, the X Factor's winner's song, which comes to number one, there'll be a crucial key change in it. I hate the rest of the song, but there'll be a key change in it. It'll really get my tear ducts going.

Lots of tears. People with normal backgrounds getting the chance to live their dream makes me cry. So, for instance, the classic one, which would be on something like Britain's Got Talent or X Factor, is a club singer, maybe someone who's done social clubs and working men's clubs. And can obviously sing, but never got a chance.

And Simon Cowell says, I'm taking you on. We're going through to judges' houses or whatever. And I'll be like, oh my god. She was doing a social club in Burnley last night and now she's going to have a record deal. The song that

makes me cry is Slipping Through My Fingers by ABBA. the song that makes me cry is uh slipping through my fingers by abba is is this gets me every time no you know what it's about obviously it's about the her daughter growing up and you know the time is slipping through her fingers she's growing up and you know kids and that's something that happens since i've become a dad just the the passage of time it's yeah it's pathetic fairy tale of New York so much so that I can make myself cry by singing it I've done that before

I've been stood alone in a room and I've sung it around Christmas time and I've started crying myself so but happily in the Roman Empire we're all getting away with it this is absolutely fine alright but here comes the bad news In the Roman Empire, we're all getting away with it. This is absolutely fine. Okay, fine.

We're fine. All right, but here comes the bad news, okay? Say the DeLorean accidentally dropped us off in the Qin Dynasty in ancient China, 221 to 206 BC. The sight of men crying was enough to cause the otherwise tyrannical emperor, Qin Shi Huang, an addict of warrior codes and martial behavior, to issue an edict banning them for any adult man or any child tall enough to pass for an adult. This is the interesting thing about the Qin Dynasty, that anyone under 4'11 and women under 4'8

could not be convicted of any crime, even crying. What? So if you went to court, they'd just have one of those things they have by a roller coaster at, like, Thorpe Park. You're absolutely fine if you went to court, they just have one of those things they have by a roller coaster at Thorpe Park. You're absolutely fine if you're lower than that. So what, four foot 11? You murder 50 people. Policeman comes up with a tape measure.

A lot of the women in my family are under forfeiting. So I come from a crime dynasty. And it's a very similar rule in West Wales. I live in a massive house, big swimming pool, all paid for by the criminal pursuits of my very, very, very short aunties. Because my mother is five foot half an inch, but I think she might be smaller than that now. She reckons she's shrinking

my auntie peg was four foot seven so yeah a one woman crime spree in abris your mother's just over five foot now but she's shrinking so if she'd lived in ancient china if she sort of waited a few years she could just she could start a crime career by the time she when she hits 80 yeah yeah just counting down the inches going next year i'm gonna kill my neighbor there's nothing they can do about it okay so so short shorter people could get away with anything yeah including crying they're allowed to cry including crying so the 18 laws of chin a legal code written onto bamboo canes decreed that any man found crying and so presenting his weakness in public was to be humiliated. So you

were subjected to a ritual. And that involved having your beard and your eyebrows shaved off. Well, good thing they didn't have the closing montage of BBC Sports Personality of the Year on YouTube in that ancient Chinese dynasty because I would be in

a big trouble. So the idea in ancient China is they want to impose standards of emotional decorum, as well as to remind different political factions who was in charge. Yeah, always tend to work so well don't they?

Insisting on very, very rigid forms of emotional behaviour. In my experience, that tends to go really, really well and everyone loves it and everyone thrives. In ancient Italy, in ancient Rome specifically, medieval Italian authorities, when they were banning crime, believed that public displays of grief,

especially weeping and wailing, could lead to other emotions. So crime was a gateway drug to kind of public disorder so from crying uh it would they thought it would lead to anger outrage and so laws imposed on crying thus served to stave off wider outbursts and prevent the potential collapse of public order wow yeah do you think people were sneaking off for a little cry on their own? Because that's what you do, isn't it? Surely you'd go off, you'd sit in your toilet for a bit and you'd have a little cry. Fewer, didn't you? Like, you'd sing Fairytale of New York to yourself in the toilet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the door busts open, in comes the fuzz. Yeah. Are you crying? You'd be by the stage door of your local theatre during a production thinking, no-one is going to find me here. I don't think I could stop it. I think I would just have to accept the eyebrows being shaved. All right, they'll grow back eventually.

I never liked my beard anyway. I wonder to what extent, you know, if you were looking for a female companion, for example, and they saw you without beard and without eyebrows, they'd think, there's a guy who's connected with his emotions. Is that actually, you know, if you were looking for a female companion, for example, and they saw you without beard and without eyebrows, they'd think there's a guy who's connected with his emotions. Is that actually, you know, that's a positive. He looks like a good listener. Wow. OK, so there you go, crying.

So I'm going to take you, if you'll allow me, back to 14th century England. Can I just say, of all the places we go back to, 14th century England is very low down on my list of places I'd like to go. This may not be the podcast for you, Chris, because we'll be going back there a lot, I imagine. It is a horrendous time to live. It fills me with dread whenever we go back there. Do you reckon they used to, when they sort of became

of age, you know, not when they were born or when they were little kids, but maybe once you became a teenager you thought, do you reckon you thought to yourself, this is a shit time to be alive. 600 years into the future will be better than this but everyone at every point in history as we do now assumes that we are living at the forefront the most

exciting that we are in the future we this is hard thing to explain we are in the future now because we have you know electric cars and all this sort of stuff but in 14th century england where they were sort of heating a turnip over a fire, they'd have been thinking, what a life, what an age. This is the future. Look at that heat. I'm not sure,

because you've got antiquity over your shoulder. You've got ancient Rome, ancient Greece. You've got aqueducts and roasted venison. Yeah, and also there'd be, you know, a lot of oral histories. Do you reckon they were sitting around eating their turnips going? I think the Romans, and they were around quite a long time ago,

I think they had a thing called central heating. Is that better than this? Central heating and roads that were very straight. That seems to be... Central heating. Is that better than having to shove my hands and feet into the mud for some kind of warmth? Before we go back there, would you like a sound effect?

Shall I do a little sound effect to take us back? Yes, please. We're now in 14th century England, when, as you'll know, King Edward III was in power. Yeah? That guy. The potato guy. The potato guy. Now, what's crucial about this time is it was a time when England was basically trying to get a grip on its resources ahead of an upcoming war against France.

So it was trying to control its money and its resources as much as possible. And one of the ways that they did this is the king and those in power passed laws which impacted the way people lived and the way that they spent their money. And a major area they did this in was in food. their money and a major area they did this in was in food so i'm going to talk to you a bit about 14th century food laws because they're absolutely mad okay the key one that started all was in 1336 when the king issued a decree which banned people eating more than two courses in any meal so it was illegal to eat three courses right i could do it i could do with this law right well i've been thinking about it first question would be which two courses are you going for

which which courses get in the boot because that's very very individual well it's a very different question in 1400 because i don't imagine there's much by way of dessert you know no one's whipping up an angel delight what was the tiramisu scene like? It was fruit. If you turned up in 14th century England with an angel delight, you were getting burned as a witch. Well, it could go one of two ways. They'd either think you were a god,

and they'd say, well, you now run the country. Yeah. Or, you're right, you'd be dunked in a river and told you were a witch yeah so what what dessert are you bringing back to 14th century england to most blow people's minds creme brulee creme brulee yeah a little chef mississippi mud cake oh yeah okay what about colin the caterpillar that birthday cake? Oh yeah, so sweet. Do you know what that would do to the palate of a 14th century English person? Blow your head off. They would have such a rush of excitement

with that Colin the Caterpillar cake. And then they would be depressed for the rest of their lives because they would never be that happy or high again. Wouldn't be able to handle it. Yeah. For me, if you're interested, I would get rid of pudding. That would. Wouldn't be able to handle it. Yeah. For me, if you're interested, I would get rid of pudding. That would be the one that I'd get rid of, for me. It would definitely be starter and main, but that's me. Yes, I think me too, actually.

I don't know. It doesn't say if there's any rules. You know that situation where you go to a restaurant, but you're running short of time. You've got to go and watch a film or something, and you say to the waiter, just let it all just come out at once. I don't know if that was one of the loop holes you could use

Constantly having to pretend that you're off to see Avatar 2 It's three and a half hours long and yeah it starts in 20 minutes so yeah just bring it all out Bring the fruit, the pheasant and the turnip at the same time Yeah

Three different flavours of ice cream and the potted pigeon yeah it's fine so they did this thing so you couldn't have more than two courses in any meal the king they think probably didn't stick to himself it's worth saying um for example when he went to his cousin's sunday roast in may 1340 i love the fact they know that. He went to his cousins for a Sunday roast. Sounds like it happened a couple of weeks ago. His cousins

for a Sunday roast. Yeah, and it was too much hassle so they're going to the pub next time. They're washing up. They didn't eat until four and what is a meal

that you have at four o'clock? It's too early for dinner. It's too late for lunch. The kids are hungry. They started drinking at midday and the's still the food still wasn't served till four she'd only got two bottles of oyster bay that wasn't enough for everyone it's too much so at this sunday roast which happened in may 1340 this is what was served there were 20 different kinds of meat and fish served at the sunday roast 20 different beef and veal i can't name 20 kinds

of meats beef and veal from three ox name 20 kinds of meats beef and veal from three oxen and 13 calves ham bacon and pork from 15 pigs and piglets plus three dishes of boar six deer five swans five spoon bills oh not more spoon bill i'm full of snow and three bitters here comes the spoon bill course and the best of all, the final one. If someone served this final one at a Sunday roast, if I went to one of yours and you brought this out, I would leave immediately and I think you'd agree.

An eighth of a porpoise. I don't know whether they were eating it or using the blowhole as a dip tray for the horseradish sauce. Where are they getting porpoise from? They only got an eighth of one. Maybe an eighth of one washed up on a beach. I don't know where the rest of it was. So an eighth of porpoise

is what the king had that day. So he wasn't sticking to things. But things didn't stop there. This was just the start. Basically this started a torrent of different laws being released in his effort to try and control the way people ate and and therefore the money they were spending so later during the reign of Elizabeth I another statute was added to that law aimed at restricting

the consumption of meat and fish days were introduced now these added to existing religious habits so that between 1563 and 1585 every wednesday friday and saturday and all of lent and various other days it was illegal to eat meat so you were not allowed to eat meat on a wednesday friday and saturday we talked earlier about people crying in the toilet i think that realistically there'll be another situation where people are sneaking into their toilet to eat sausages here aren't that that's't they? That's what you're looking at once again. There's nothing like a toilet sausage, is there? It was like the iPhone of the day.

The odd kids at primary school, the weird kids, would eat apples in the toilet at break time. And I would just think to myself, lads, eat it at the playground. It's not even raining. You're eating your apple next to it, you're raining, that's weird. Do you know what? I could definitely eat a sausage in a toilet yeah but then i thought could i eat a sausage in a 14 in a 1400s england toilet you know the smell yeah well imagine a toilet in 1400 if you think about it is the perfect thing because

you can hide the sausage in the uh the inner roll of a toilet roll as well it's perfect it's perfectly shaped so you can have your toilet sausage waiting for you for when you go in and no one will know it no it's in there so it could have been worse though because uh weirdly the choice wasn't quite as restricted as it could have been because meat at this time referred to beef lamb and mutton weirdly fish also encompassed veal game and poultry as well as eels so okay chicken was classed as a fish, which would be quite annoying if you were a chicken and you thought you were about to get off the hook. And then suddenly somebody tells you you're a fish, so you're still edible.

I don't feel like a fish. You're a land of fish, mate. However, the problem was, even with this law, people soon started to disregard it. And it got to a point where butchers who sold meat were threatened with the loss of their license which feels a little bit harsh i mean i think it's quite a fundamental thing that a butcher should be allowed to do is to sell meat yeah i imagine they were making most of their money from like the other stuff you get in sort of snazzy butchers

today which would be like pots of mint jelly and hardback books on the art of barbecuing that sort of stuff if you go to a ginger pig i mean how are you how are you keeping yourself afloat as a medieval butcher if you're not selling meat it feels like you haven't got the other sort of slightly pretentious gentrified things around it what are your options gravy yeah gravy broth well that contains meat, doesn't it? Yeah. I think that all counts. Yeah, absolutely. Gutted. So, they also tried to control it. We talked about police there.

They started something called the Meat Watch at various gates around cities, where they did indeed have meat inspectors who would check you for meat as you came into cities. I've got a little list of three meats here, and I'd like you to tell me where you'd hide them on your person as you're entering the city. Okay. Sausages, where are they going? In the old pants. But around the back, like I'd had an accident.

What if you could take them to your fingers? It's an option. And then put gloves over the top. Then put gloves over the top. Bosh. Scotch egg? In the pants down the front. and then put gloves over the top then put gloves over the top bosh scotch egg in the pants down the front two scotch eggs and a sausage down the front of the pants

I look like a well-hidden man who's had an accident and finally leg of lamb I thought I'd chuck in a big one stick it down your trousers haven't you and finally leg of lamb I thought I'd chuck in a big one hmm stick it down your trousers haven't you got to stick it down your trousers

too big I think leg of lamb big hat up the jumper I think up the jumper what if you could fashion a new face out of the meat

you're trying to smuggle in so you know scotch eggs for eyes sausages just round like your jawline I think if the meat police are worth their salt, you're not going to get away with that.

You're not going to get away with that. That's day one of meat police school. Oh, wow, the meat police. Yeah. That's a job I think I could do, actually. I think I could be a member of the meat police. Yeah, say you bust someone for meat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You confiscate the meat. You're eating the meat. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They've all got incredibly high blood pressure in the meat police. Interesting fact about the meat police is that if they arrested you, rather than handcuffs, they would tie your hands behind

your back using a string of sausages that they'd taken from you. They'd use the different meats to apprehend you. they'd take you to the prison and all the bars in the jail would be made of sausages yeah you've read about this okay yeah yeah that's quite right the bed would be made of mints i'm arresting you on suspicion of having a pork chop about your person yeah i think i could do that i think i could do it what i find so Ie, rwy'n credu y gallwn wneud hynny. Rwy'n credu y gallwn wneud hynny. Yr hyn rwy'n ei chael yn ddiddorol gyda'r llawau hyn hefyd yw bodwn wedi bod yn darllen biograffi, dwi'n dweud, o Clement Attlee. Ac mae llawer o'r pethau, fel asbrydau

ysbyt y dynion llaw a phethau, sydd gennym ni heddiw, sy'n cael eu cymryd i'w ddangos. Yn ffyrdd, mae'r GIG yn un o'r enghreifftau gorau. that we take for granted. You know, the NHS, for instance, is probably the best example. They didn't get round to that, but they did get round to all of these weird, crap, meaningless, pointless like the meat police. You kind of think, what were your bloody,

what were your priorities? What a strange, what a strange country. Well, not just England, but I mean, it's always so weird isn't it the stuff that they were well i suppose so many of the laws were not really about trying to help society in any way i suppose that's the shift you say a lot of these things that they didn't get around to if

you look at them it really is a lot often often about the aristocracy and those with wealth preserving their lifestyle and a lot i imagine a lot of this is really about they they want to keep the meat for themselves and make sure that the the pheasant population isn't being gobbled by the serfs or whatever. It's selfish behaviour from the wealthy. That's kind of really what it is, isn't it? Yeah. Still, it did lead us on a very whimsical cul-de-sac where I'm now going to imagine being a member of the meat police probably for the rest of the year.

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Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. Okay, well, I'm discussing beards and bachelors. Now, something I hadn't realised, taxes on beards have been around for centuries. The most famous example is the one introduced by Peter the Great, the Tsar of Russia in 1705. So nobles were compelled to pay 100 roubles for the privilege of keeping their beard, whereas ordinary people had to pay a single kopek

whenever they came into town. So you'd go into town bearded and you'd have to pay a single kopek. Yeah, sorry, mate. I hadn't that time to shave. Sorry, sorry. So the idea was to impose an image change on Russian society,

turning Russia into a modern, clean-shaven European society rather than a traditional inward-looking and thus bearded one. So failure to pay meant the time in prison doing hard labour. Sir Peter was not the first person to come up with the idea of taxing beards. In Elizabethan England, facial hair of two weeks' growth was subject to a similar levy, but Peter's system was to be the reference point thereafter. Have either of you ever had a beard?

You may remember this, Ellis. At university, I had the bold decision of growing quite a full beard and shaving off the moustache because I found it tickly. Very, very weird to look at. Which, having looked back at the photos, was a bad decision. It looked mental. Why didn't you say something? I told you all the time.

Did you? I used to say yeah But it's itchy Yeah I used to say that you look like A sort of Kind of lorry driver That you really don't want to be picked up

Yes Yeah yeah yeah Yeah so I have had a beard I shave it off But I suppose See this idea of people paying If they had a beard Is that what it was?

You had to pay How much was it? If you were a nobleman A hundred rubles Right If you were an ordinary person You had to pay a single was it if you're a nobleman 100 rubles right if you're an ordinary person you have to pay a single copay so it's a great time to be alive if you were sort of one of those teenagers that now gets embarrassed because they can't appear you know those people

yeah absolutely this is the period you want to live in so by the 20th century beer taxes had largely fallen into abeyance and so it could be written up as facets of bygone times but in 1907 a member of the New Jersey legislature, seeking to capitalise on recent murders, featuring apparently sinister bearded individuals, sought to introduce a beard tax into the state. So this is in 1907. So the basic levy was a dollar a year,

but if your beard got too long, then it was an extra two dollars per inch. If you grew a goatee, then that was subject to a $10 charge. I get that one. What? Yeah, that's to protect public decency, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I think that should be reintroduced. Well, historically, the beard was a sign of maturity,

of adulthood, of wisdom and old age. So the clean-shaven were youthful, by contrast, and possibly still bachelors. Being a bachelor in many states in America in the 19th and early 20th centuries was a costly experience. So one's subject to an additional burden of taxation. So although the Americans weren't the originators of these taxes, they'd been imposed in ancient Rome, in the Ottoman Empire of the 16th century and in 17th century England, there was a particular enthusiasm for them. Now, in Argentina, the only way to escape paying the bachelor tax

introduced there in 1900, I love this, was to make a marriage proposal and have it audibly rebuffed. Audibly? Yeah. No! No way! No way! audibly yeah no no way no way oh that's no chance yeah can you imagine so there was it so there was a tax just to be clear there's a tax for being single for being a male and who is not with someone is that right i think i think it was a sort of a combination of taxes, yeah, based on various aspects of a single life. But if you could prove that you tried to marry someone, then you'd be fine.

It's interesting you say that. The loophole, right, or that you could escape the bachelor tax introduced there in 1900 in Argentina, the loophole of making a marriage proposal and having it audibly rebuffed, led to the creation of professional rejectors. Amazing. Women whose job it was to provide bachelors

with their escape from the tax. That is incredible. Oh, that's so good. But surely those women are building up a reputation. Yeah. Like, I asked her to marry me. Oh, pull the other one, mate. Turned 40 men down today. Yeah. Making an absolute asked her to marry, she's like, oh, pull the other one, mate. Turn 40 men down today.

Yeah. Make an absolute fortune. At the same spot in the town square, every Saturday she's turning down 40 people. My voice is gone, actually. It's the fact that it has to be so audible. Yeah, it's really getting me down. In 1821, Missouri was amongst the first in the United States

to introduce a bachelor tax charging single adult men a dollar for their freedom, which feels very, very unfair. A century later, the Republican governor of Montana, Joseph M. Dixon, signed a law authorising a $3 tax on all bachelors in the state between the ages of 21 and 50. The law caused an outcry and was eventually struck down by the state's Supreme Court a year later. Wow. I mean, what is their problem with bachelors? I'm sure these men were trying to find partners.

What is this? Is this the idea that they want families and children and this idea of... What is it? What's the idea behind it? Yeah, presumably that you'd want your local menfolk, your young menfolk to settle down.

Yeah. I mean, I was trying my best during my 20s for crying out loud. I was skint enough as it was. I suppose if you did genuinely propose to someone and they said no, you could then claim,

I was only really doing this for the Bachelor tax rate. You know, it gives you a bit of a get out I suppose oh yeah that's a good point yeah so if you didn't really ask her to marry me

I was just having a bloody laugh yeah exactly I guarantee you there was a lot of people back down the pub claiming that's why they'd done it yeah I mean I know that I bought her flowers

and gifts and sort of you know hung around her workplace for months and all that kind of, wrote her love letters and then asked her to marry me in front of everyone in the town this year above me. And had the tattoo done.

I sort of did it for a laugh, really, just because there's bloody tax and I don't love her at all and I'm fine. The Republican governor of Montana, Joseph M. Dixon, I mentioned a second ago, well, that was a really costly blunder for him because those who would pay the levy, the state accounts for

1921-22 show it raised more than $200,000 were to be refunded. So for months, Montana newspapers carried lists of those bachelors who got their $3 back. It could have been worse. The original bill proposed by T.H. MacDonald of Flathead, Montana, had made

provision for a $5 bachelor's tax apparently to create a state fund for widows. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which is clever. Yes, quite interesting that. Now, the Montana story was not the end of the US experiment with such legislation. Imagine very briefly that you've paid

your tax, you think, well, at least that's done now. Nobody needs to know I'm a bachelor anymore. And then your name is printed in a list of people who owe their money back yeah you spend any bachelor tax refund yes actually no i mean i don't know what you're talking about also i think we can agree off meeting someone is like it's much easier if you're feeling relaxed and good about yourself i think normally being yourself and being comfortable is probably quite a healthy part of any kind of dating process not knowing that if you can't pull this off it's going to have a

financial impact on your year yeah date one would you like a drink yes i'd like a glass of wine please no problem i'll get them in glass of wine pint of lager thank you very much by the way if we if we get on this could be superb for me in terms of tax breaks there'll be another glass of wine from where that came from i need this yeah absolutely remarkably the montana story is not the end of the u.s experiment with such legislation so in 1934 i mean that's less than 100 years ago, California legislators debated whether to introduce a $25 bachelor tax in response to low birth rates.

The proposal galvanised the state's various bachelor clubs who responded by arguing that it was an economic fallacy and that we need good, honest bachelors in California more than we need the receipts. Because also in the pre-Hinge and Tinder age, much harder to meet women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The saloon.

The saloon. Gun fights happening all the time. If the films I've seen are to be believed. $25 yearly tax for being single is what was suggested. That's a lot of money. That does feel like a lot. What's the equivalent to that now? Let's find out. I'll quickly look it up.

What year was that? 1934. You're just going to go out and find someone and you're just going to go, do me a favour. It's the equivalent to around $565 today. A lot of money. It is.

It's a big old tax for being single, isn't it? Not going to be great for the old self-esteem either. When you see that, leave your account. I'd be tempted to find another bachelor and just go, should we just say we're together? Yeah, that's the thing. Well, homosexuality laws in the US, obviously, that wouldn't have been an option.

It would be an option now, obviously. Okay. Well, a single female then. Yeah. But what's in it for her? You can have $200. At least it's better than my $565. I would be losing otherwise.

God, what's such bleak maths? And also you'll notice slightly less than half as well, which is a little bit... I don't know what that's... You can have exactly half. Well, it probably didn't help the would-be taxes of bachelors in california that the most prominent example of such attacks at that time was in mussolini's italy so the ussr similarly enacted a bachelor tax there also applied to women in 1941 it remained in force until the demise of the ussr in 1991 with the money raised directed into funds to support mothers and children.

So at least it's going to a good cause. So when did that exist? What were the years there? Between 1941 and 1991. Oh, wow. So it's a long old time. Yeah. That's really hard, isn't it? Because you basically, you're so incentivised to get on the pull. Yeah.

Non-stop. Every year that bill's coming through if you haven't done it, you haven't done the business. And it's pressurised enough. Eventually you meet someone and they say, where should we go for our first date? And you say, I can't really afford to take you anywhere because I'm 30 years of paying a bachelor tax now.

I'm absolutely skint. Soon we'll just have to stand here and have a chat, if that's all right. She goes, no thank you but this date is finished but if you could tell hmrc that we're together as soon as you come would really really help the idea all right that was lords once again thank you so much for your support for the podcast so far your messages mean the world and please do keep those

five star reviews coming in wherever you can it means a lot it makes a difference to the show um but also tom as this show obviously looks back at the past and trying to decide quite how awful it was we'd love to hear from you which period of history would you least like to have lived in and why let's get the ball rolling with that it's an important big question on a history podcast so send in your reasons and send them to hello at oh what a time dot com and we will be back next week with yet more history fun thank you so much for listening bye bye hi thank you very much goodbye thank you so much for listening bye-bye hi thank you very much goodbye