Oh What A Time... - #201 How Countries Are Made (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 4, 2026

This week we’re taking a look at the curious process through which some countries were created. We have for you: the Netherlands, Canada, and Uruguay. Plus, there's a bit of an interlace of Elis's curiosity about Empire, some football references, a bit of American-Canadian rivalry, and even a nod to (erm) currant based biscuits.Elsewhere, did the world feel smaller in the past? What makes a Town and what makes a City? And what happens when that status changes? Join us live as we try to figure it out. If you’ve got anything to add to the conversation, do that here: [e-mail] if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find: • The full archive of bonus episodes • Brand new bonus episodes each month • OWAT subscriber group chats • Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show • PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, What a Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus, if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate

where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime. Hello and welcome to Oh, what a time. It's a history podcast. And today we've got the sad news as we're recording that West Ham's legendary goalkeeper Ludet McClossco has passed away. And I thought this was a moment to reflect on the chant that West Ham fans used to sing for Ludet McClosco. And it went something like this. Ludet McClough, he comes from near Moscow.

He plays in gold for West Ham. Now, he was born in the Czech Republic, Ludiclosco. And East Ham is technically. closer to his birthplace than the Red Square. That's fantastic. Is that true? Yeah. That's a great fact.

But I think it speaks to this idea that maybe in the 80s, 90s, the world felt a much smaller place. Like anything kind of from East Germany, East was essentially one big block that was all just merged together. Well, that was the thing. They were two blocks. So if you were one, if you were from one of the blocks, that felt closer. than even if you were geographically miles out, you felt sort of closer. It's really, it's very strange.

So what should the chart have been, Chris? It should have been Ludic McClostko, he's our man, he wasn't born that far from his town. That's what it should have been. You've just come up with a better charm on the hoof. That is true. I do think that is true. There was that sort of like collective feeling about certain types.

And I'm sure that's true of wherever you grow up around the world in your views of different parts of the world, isn't it? I think that these large blocks have been, yeah. Can I just say as well, just back from, on Friday night, West Ham played Wrexham, obviously,

Rexham being a Welsh town. Is it a town or a city? It's surely a town. It's a town. They've gone for city status a couple of times, and it's been rejected. I suppose it is Rexham Town, isn't it? That is the name of the club,

isn't it? Is it a very good. No, it's Rexham AFC. It's not Rexham Town. Oh, is it? Yeah, it's Rexom Association Football Club. Okay. Is it ever been.

Rexham town? No. Oh, right, okay. Their nickname is the town. Okay, maybe that's where it's come from. It's not, um, no, Rexham is not a town. Oh, hang on. It's a city. Is it? That's what I said. When did they get?

City, when did Rexham get city status? Wow. This is seconds before I suggested it. If you call yourself Rexham, town, and you become a city, do you have to change their name? Yeah, Swansea. It was Swansea Town Football Club until 1969.

Really? And then he had to change the name. Oh, Rexham was awarded city status in 2022. Post-Ryan Reynolds. It's... It is post-Reyn Reynolds. It's the Reynolds effect. Because he took over the club in him and Rob McElheny took over the club in 2021. So it's going to have built...

At the 2021 census, the built-up area had a population of 44,785. Wow. It was awarded city status in 2020. That was because Ryan Reynolds personally built a cathedral, didn't they, as well, by hand in Wrexham, to ensure. Hang on a minute. Ipswich Town Football Club, Ipswich is surely a city. And they haven't changed. Is Ipswich a city?

Ipswich is much bigger than Wrexham. Obviously not that that's the only thing. It's which is not a city. Is it not? It's a town and a borough. I thought, my understanding is this, that a city is a place with a cathedral. Is that wrong? I thought it was basically cathedral status

or is that a historical thing? That was a historical thing but Swansea doesn't have a cathedral so you can apply for city status. Okay. And when you do that, Ellis, do you have to say, we are going to build a cathedral

just have to trust us on that? Is that part of your cell that you're claiming they're the cathedral in the off thing? Yeah, but you've got a thousand years to do it in. Okay, fine. Oh, actually, well,

there is the co-cathedral Church of St Joseph in Green Hill. but Swansea was a town until 1969 so I don't know although I suppose it does have a cathedral but it was a town until 1969 to be honest we should either stop talking about this

or or research it Google it first because this is I'd forgotten the Rexham had been conferred city status in 2022 I am right on the year that Swansea was awarded city status in 1969

I know that for a fact My feeling re-city status is it's time to move on. You know, we live in increasingly secular times. It's time to move on from the cathedral being the thing that decides that. It needs to be something far more modern like whether you've got a really big weather spoons or something like that. It has to be something which is the deciding factor. Have you got anandos? Anandos, there you go.

That's what gives you city status. Have you got Anando? It is a common misconception that to become a city you need a cathedral. Why people think a city needs a cathedral? Henry the 8th created new diocese and gave six towns, cathedral and city status in 1540. This started the old rule that in England that a town needed a diocesan cathedral to be a city.

This rule was ended in 1889 when Birmingham became the first city without a cathedral. Here we go. But you've got these tiny little cathedral settlements. St. David's, which is near where I was born, is tiny. And then you've got St. Assef, which has a cathedral. And that's a city, which is in Dembershire, North Wales.

Here's a question. Do you think there are many cathedrals not in cities? What makes a cathedral? What is life? Because a cathedral would require a large enough population for it to be built there in the first place, I guess. Well, no, because St. David's doesn't have a big population. Yeah. Neither does St. Asaph.

They were just areas of... religious importance. And also Bath, I grew up, had an abbey as well. So what's that? And Bath is a city, but it has an abbey, not a cathedral. Oh, I don't know. St. David's has a population of 1800. So it's basically a big school. Well, actually, the settlement of St. David's is mentioned. I've got a list here of cathedrals that are in towns. The examples include Blackburn, Southwell, Berry, St. Edmonds, and the tiny settlement of St David's in Wales. Yeah.

Wow. St Asif is about 3,500 people. It doesn't feel like a city when you go there. No offence. But it's a cathedral city. Do you think we've now ticked off cathedrals, considering we don't really know much about cathedrals or what constitutes a city?

But we've done quite well at those five minutes of chat. I think what we've done is we've effectively had a pub conversation from the pre-mobile phone either. There's an awful lot of confident bullshit there. I'll tell you what that was like, Elle. It's like in your GCSEs, when there's a question in your exam, you haven't really revived properly, but you have to blag it. So you just keep writing.

Listen, right. I'm just going to put words down. I love history, and I always will. Izzy found her history GCSE coursework, where she's tried to blag the history of the toilet. I don't know why they were studying that. We didn't study that, GCC. She obviously hasn't been listening.

She hasn't written down very good. notes. At one point, she just tries to write a sort of empathetic piece about how people felt about toilets. There's a great bit when like, the first people to see toilets, they were probably scared of them. I've got a question for you. I'm treated to know if you know the answers to this. This was one of those apocryful things. It was knocking around when we were at school. There was a rumor that there was a confident kid in a neighbouring school in his exam. English exam. The question was, what is confidence? Do you know what he did? It's the same as like, there was always the kid who slammed his head against the desk with pencil of his nose.

This was like the equivalent that. He apparently stood up and said, this is, before closing the paper and walking out. And then because of that, got let into Cambridge. That's what I said. That was the story. I think that's bollocks, because how on earth would the external examiner know that he'd done that? This is the issue. And how would you know? He's definitely looking at that question as well. And you say, I'm thinking that the adjudicator is then relaying that information to Cambridge University,

is immediately ringing them and going, you won't believe what I've just saying. Yeah. You have to have this guy. My friend's mum told me that she knew someone at university who was studying philosophy degree. One of the questions was, what is nothing?

And he just left the page blank and got a first. Yeah, yeah. A similar sort of thing. I don't believe your mate. No. I think that's, I just think this. Oh, no, it's not my mate. This is a thing that people were told about someone in a neighbouring story.

I just cannot believe that story. What about the pencils up the nose and the exam to put themselves out of the misery? That was the other one, isn't it? I heard that one. I heard that one. That's just not true. I cannot believe that. Basically, nothing you're told as a teenager is true.

I don't know that's what we can take about. But, Tom, I think you may have invented a very hot new feature. what urban myths have you heard in the past that you've on aired that maybe we can get to the bottom off using this podcast? Oh, what a myth? Oh, what's a myth? There you go. Send them in.

There must be some good ones from Wales, Elle. I imagine there's some sort of... Well, the classic one is the razor blades in the swimple slide. Yeah, we had that. Although someone did find me an article where that actually had happened in Swansea. I was like, oh, great. What was it? The supergluing raises down the water slides. Yeah.

Rexham, it was their fourth application for city status. I knew they'd lost it in 2000, 2002 and 2012. I'd forgotten that the Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElheny effect meant that Rexham now, of course, is a city. Congratulations to the people of Rex. I just think it's a pity because I think if anyone on this show should know that sort of thing, Ellis. as someone who is one of Wales's most loved performers and an expert on all things Welsh, it is you.

Yeah, and also, if you're going to do a history podcast where the actual history is written for you by a proper historian, but you just tend to blag the first 10 minutes. The least you could know is that Rexham's fourth bid for city status in the Queen's Jubilee was, it was ultimately successful in 2022. to. I mean, that is the bare minimum.

Yeah. I like the fact all three of us were immediately out of our depth. None of our feet were touching the sea floor at that point. We were trying to get back to the beach. But we've all got the life jacket of Google. Exactly. Right. Welcome to, oh, what a time. This is an interesting episode.

It's quite a departure to some of the ones we've done recently. It's about the formation of different countries and nations and how they came to pass. I think this is your idea, Chris, I think. Yeah, I've been reading a lot about Elizabeth I first recently, and I didn't quite realise how the Netherlands came about. So I'm going to be talking about that a little later in the show. And I'm going to be talking about how Uruguay came to be. It's had quite a sort of an interesting past.

And yeah, that's what I'll be talking about later in the show. What about you, well? Lovely, I'll be talking about Canada. Nice. Before that, some correspondence from our lovely, lovely listeners. I absolutely love this email for a variety of reasons. It made me laugh and also very touching. So this is from Claire, who says,

Hi there, chaps. I love your video so much about childhood memories. Just to be explaining, we recently did a Patreon special, which is a video special, which is full of clips, all about childhood from history and some of our favourite clips from different documentaries. She says, here's so many great toys when I was a kid in the 90s, finders, keepers, and polypockets.

I once had a Barbie doll who was pregnant, you could remove her bump and there would be a baby inside, and once you removed it, immediately a flat stomach. And as someone who's had two kids, that is not how it works. But my favourite part was the special collection magazines you could get. I completely forgotten these. This is such a good point, Claire.

The first issue was always 99P. The second was 299. And then every issue after that were about a tenor. Yeah. My folks were recently tidying their loft and found a bunch I had as a kid. And it's so funny to think, unless you were made of money, you'd end up with two pieces of a human body or two parts of a solar system. I think there was also a rock collection one too.

Even my husband said he never got past a second issue as it was so expensive. Do you remember these? I do vividly remember these because the problem was for the first issue, there would be a really big advertising campaign. The publisher would go big. And the first issue would really emphasize the finished product. So true. Absolutely fantastic.

The one I had out on that front was a Harrier jump jet. Yeah. I think I got as far as the wings and the wings. wheels and then never got any further than that. But the problem was, it would emphasize the finished product, which basically looked like you had a hurry jump jet in your house that you'd made yourself. Like there was, you know, there were ones for sort of the, you know, like the cutty sack. Yeah.

So you'd teach yourself, yeah, I'm the kind of person who's really going to stick with it. So you buy the first month and it would be 99 pence and then obviously you would go up in price. By week four, they weren't in the shops anymore because the whole country had, lost interest. So I don't think anyone's ever finished one of those magazine things. Is there a chance of this company, for example, only actually made one full Harrier Jumpjet? Have they actually bothered putting in... Exactly. Are they really running the factory to make the rest of the Harrier Jump Jet? Or are they just making loads of wheels and loads of wings and knowing nobody will get beyond that path? If anyone ever completed one of these, so you'd have to be

in your 40s, I think. Yes, and a billionaire. And a billionaire. And a billionaire. or older and you had disposable income of some sort because they were expensive. If you ever finish one, let me know because I would be staggered. Well, this is what Claire says. She said, I'd love to know if we ever had one. I started them, Claire, didn't finish them. Or if anyone listening did collect all magazines

and have the full final collection. Yeah, I would generally love to know that. And if you have a picture of what you made, that would be awesome as well. I think I completed one. I think I had a dinosaur one. Is that possible? That's mad. And you had an actual like diplodocus in your house.

It was a tearyx. It was like a collectible magazine. It was about dinosaurs. Every week you'd get a magazine about dinosaurs. And week by week you would gradually create a little T-Rex. Are they still writing stuff in the magazines when you get to magazine 8 or 9? Or have they just sort of stopped? They just don't really care anymore.

Completely checked out by magazine 8. It just says stuff like the dinosaurs are very big. You'll say that on one page, nothing else. Headline on magazine 10. They're still extinct. Well, that's absolutely blowing my mind. Claire finishes email by saying, I love the show and I'll just inflate your egos for a minute.

Your podcast is such a comfort for me. I live with a neurological condition and spend a lot of time in bed or in my wheelchair, but for an hour every week I can listen to three friends, talk about history, Wales, their love of custard, and the killers, and I feel less alone because you've made me realise how much I love history and how cool is this.

I've decided to go back to uni to do a degree in history, and that's down to the old internet so I can do it from my bed. It's start beginning of October, so you might find I suggest podcast ideas for you then. Please do, Claire. And congratulations, that's such a cool thing. That's incredible. Oh, congratulations, Claire. Yeah, that's absolutely made my year.

Brilliant. That's so exciting. Sorry for the first 10 minutes. Absolute crap. Oh, Claire, that's made my day. Especially, Elle, as she's mentioned here, I can listen to three friends talk about history and Wales. where you've really absolutely screwed up on the subject of Wales within the first five minutes.

I was right about St. Arsif and St. I've really let the country down when it came to my breakfast stuff. Sorry. So, Claire, that's awesome. Thank you very much for that email. If anyone has completed one of these mega expensive magazines that Chris claims to have done, then do get in contact with the show. And here's how you do just that. All right, you horrible look, here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at ohwattatime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh What a Time pod. Now clear off.

Each week on this show, we read out a name from one of our O What Time, All-Timmers, the top tier on Patreon. We'll give a shout out to one name in particular and we'll figure out where in history this name may have been before this week, gentlemen. and it is Katie Connolly. Late 80s, Hollywood crush in the sort of Ferris Bueller's Day Off sort of ilk. Yeah. So 20-year-old at uni, those playing those sort of characters.

Someone I'd have been in love with when I was about 14. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Katie Connolly, Hollywood stars. Mine was 90s kids TV presenter, but the one on the program that they'd get to do all the mad stuff. Getting gunged. Yeah.

Kate Connolly is getting guns. She's doing a ski jump with Eddie the eagle. She's swimming in shark-infested waters. Reporting from the top of Snowden on Britain's coldest day. Completely purple. Yeah, she's doing a parachute jump solo, unaided, untrained. All of that. The really mad stuff.

Finding out what asbestos tastes like. In a ferret cage. In a ferret cage with Terry Nutkins. Hoping for the best. but bang up for it. That's a great shout. Absolutely bang up for it. She'd be like, yeah, I'll do that.

Are you sure, Katie? She's like, I'm Katie Connolly. I'm the one who says, yes, to all the man stuff. Your voice there sounded a bit like she's got me with a drink problem. I'm Katie Connolly, don't you tell me what I can't do? I'm Katie Connolly. If you want me to ride a bike on a motorway, a unicycle, I will bloody do it. I'll nick you a bike.

I'll eat your bike as well if you want. I'll eat it. And then I'll eat the bike. Yeah, I think that's bang on the money. I think that's far better than Hollywood at Hartthroft. I think that's right. It is that sort of live and kicking sort of thing. In the student, we've got Peter, Amanda and Rachel.

But from the Sahara Desert, she's trying to walk it unaided, barefoot without a drink. Katie Connolly, Katie, how are you getting off? So, so, sisters, blah. But soon, guys, and the soldiers are. Best of luck, Katie. That link up as well, Elle, would freeze about three-quarters away in and she'd be stuck on the same position. I think we've lost Katie there, but anyway, I'm like Katie.

I hope she's all right. Yeah. And as she does cross the desert by midnight tonight, she'll raise £1,200 for charity. So congratulations, Katie. So there you go, Katie Connolly. That's what you can be. You can be a Hollywood starlet, or I think more realistically,

you can be the out-and-about reporter on live and kicking. There we go. Thank you very much, Katie. If you want to support the show, here's how you can do just that. Hello again, you horrible lot. Enjoying the show. Well, why not show the love by becoming a Patreon supported today? For a mere handful of farthings, you can get ad-free shows, two bonus subscriber episodes each month,

access to all the past bonus eps, first dibs on live tickets, and even help decide what subjects the boys cover next. Your support makes everything possible, so sign up today at patreon.com slash oh what's a time or oh what's a time.com. What are you waiting for? Stop dawdling!

Well, this week on the show we're talking about the formation of countries. in a second, I'll be telling you all about the Netherlands, gentlemen. What do you have? At the end of the show, I'm going to be telling you about Uruguay and how that exciting place. I would love to visit in South America came to pass. Well, I'll be talking to you about Canada, which is absolutely massive. It is, isn't it? Right. Question for you, Elle. Picture the scene. Canal side. Amsterdam. There's Tom Crane. He's on his fourth dobie of the day. Do you think this thought ever crosses his mind?

How did the Netherlands get here? I think Tom's thoughts are more intense. It's more, how did I get here? How did I get it? And then he starts to go my ancestors. Why can I feel my legs? Would my ancestors be proud of me? Am I letting them down?

I think I'm letting them down. Oh my God. I should probably have a fifth doom. That'll set me down. A straightener. Is it weird to be this musly? Why am I so weird to have such a defined stomach? be only human.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that Holland was once attached to Norfolk. I've got this really, or at least there was that what you could get across. Is that right? Well, it's Dogland, isn't it? Dogland sits between.

I think, yeah, it did because they've found at the bottom of the North Sea like tree roots and stuff, haven't they? Again, we're exposing our lack of knowledge on this. Also, Chris, sneaking suspicion is a weird way. I'm not describing that because it's just a hunch I've got

as opposed to it's something I've definitely heard on a documentary or my mother-in-law has told me. I'm not just being to Norfolk and thought, I bet this was attached to Holland. I can just sense it. Well, they are. I've heard it somewhere. I haven't been to the Netherlands and to Norwich.

They are similar, yeah, you can feel it. They are similar. It was Doggerland. Doggerland, close enough. Dogland is a massive pet shop in Sussex. You can see, I think that's true, Chris. That's true, Chris. So Norfolk is so flat, it has that sort of Dutch feel. It really does. And also, there's loads of windmills there as well.

Norfolk is full of windmills. There's a real link up. A lot of canals. There's a lot of similarities in Norfolk, yeah. Not so much weed, let's be honest. Less weed. No. Yeah.

So let's get into how the Netherlands came to be. So it starts in the mid-1550s. The most powerful man in Europe was Charles the 5th, only Roman emperor, head of the mighty Habsburg's dynasty and the first ruler ever to claim an empire on which the sun never set. The first guy, Charles V, to do that. Wow.

His titles piled up. What a CV. Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Archduke of Austria, King of Spain, Lord of the Netherlands, master of Spanish territories in North Africa and the newly conquered Americas.

Pretty good, isn't it? I would say hard to take a day off. when you're responsible for all of that. Captain of the Pig and Whistle five-aside team. There's got to be lesser ones as well, which is part of his own life. He's in charge of the family's Secret Santa. Exactly, yeah, just never stop. So that's everything that Charles V was controlling in the mid-1550s,

and I mean, that's a lot. And unfortunately for Charles, he was getting old and he was quite unwell. So by 1558, he was dead. Did the admin cause that? Who knows? but his enormous inheritance was being broken up. So before his death, Charles divided the empire between different members of his family.

His son, Philip, who you might remember from primary school, we'll get on to him in a second, where he was crowned King of Spain in 1556, having already inherited the Netherlands from his father in October 1555. Philip's assent had a peculiar English side effect because Philip King of Spain, his wife is Mary the First of England.

of course, is currently engaged in a brutal counter-reformation. She's trying to violently reverse the break with Rome that her father, Henry VIII, had begun so that he could marry Anne Berlin. Isn't it interesting? How all these kind of storylines are all merged in this time. I find it so interesting. Yeah, the storylines emerge,

and it's often to do with whether you're a Protestant or a Catholic. Yeah. It's a great Netflix series, this. It really is on what they're playing at. Among the victims of Mary's regime was Thomas Cranmer, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, and one of the architects of the English Reformation. He was burned at the stake in Broad Street, Oxford, in March 1556.

We haven't really done too much of English history around this time, have we? No, we haven't. What are we doing? Keep going back to ancient Rome. And the mad thing is, he was burnt at the stake on Broad Street in Oxford. Broad Street, because it's Oxford, will still be there, but there'll be Acosta there now. Thomas Cranman was burned to death outside this Costa.

Outside of course. In 1558, however, Mary died and the English crown passed to her half-sister, Elizabeth I, who governed as a Protestant, would remain a Protestant queen for the rest of her long reign. Philip made repeated attempts to overthrow her, including famously the great Spanish armada of 1588. The Armada failed. Every attempt failed. England remained Protestant, and it has been Protestant ever since Mary the First. The English pattern was about to repeat itself further east. So the Netherlands were, in 1556, part of Phillips' inheritance.

Most of the region remained solidly Catholic. But in the wealthy trading cities, such as Antwerp, in fact especially Antwerp, the ideas of the Reformation had begun to take root. A growing number of Dutch Protestants wanted not only religious independence, but political independence from Spain. And Philip, meanwhile, much like Mary the First, was a fanatically zealous Catholic. He saw it as his duty before God

to exterminate Protestantism wherever it appeared, whether that's in England, in Germany, but especially in his own Dutch territory. So a collision was inevitable. And it took just 12 years of Philip's rule for the Dutch to rise in open revolt. In 1568, what became known as the 80-year-s war, the Dutch War of Independence began.

Fascinated by it. I don't know enough about the 80 years war, essentially apart from how long it is. That is a long war, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are they updating the name of it as they go up through the years as well? Is it the 39-year war, the 40-year war? Generally, or are they just doing every decade?

They're renaming it. I want to know that. Leading the revolt was one of the great English figures of European history, William the Silent, also known as William of Orange. charismatic, patient, politically shrewd, he became the effective founder of the modern Dutch nation. In 1579, seven of the northern provinces bound themselves together in the Union of Utrecht, the alliance that would eventually become at the United Provinces, and later still the Dutch Republic. Spanish attempts that the Spanish were not happy about this, so they attempted to crush the revolt in 1570s,

and they were so, so brutal. As Spanish forces advanced in, to rebel cities such as Maastricht and Antwerp, they carried out savage sackings. The bloodshed was so extreme that the campaign became known as the Spanish Fury. The worst atrocity actually came at Antwerp in 1576. Around 17,000 inhabitants of the city were killed and thousands of buildings were destroyed. The city, which was one of the great commercial centres of Europe, was left resembling a total war zone. And before the war, Antwerp had been very much like a hub of European trade with a powerful banking sector centred on its Jewish community.

It had a booming diamond trade, one of the largest book printing industries in Europe. English Protestant merchants had long done business there. I mean, there's a real argument that it was like where capitalism itself was invented. The Spanish Fury broke all of that. In 1582, English merchants shifted their operations to Amsterdam. In 1585, the Spanish blockaded Antwerp forced its Protestants. and it's due to leave altogether. And from that point on, Amsterdam became the new Dutch capital of commerce,

and Antwerp never fully recovered. So the rebels had already made their political break. In July 1581, they signed the act of abjuration, which effectively was like the Dutch Declaration of Independence, which formally released officials from their oaths of loyalty to Philip II. And then comes the question, who would rule this new state? And one of those approach was Elizabeth I of England. but she turned down the offer of sovereignty.

So there is a version of history where the Netherlands is a kind of British country. And that means Marco Van Basten could have played for Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. Yeah. It could have been one of our regions. Just think of all the players and all those other World Cup finals and we may have lost.

Oh, my God. Well, the Dutch have never won one. No. Well, they won the Euros. They won the Euros in 88. They got to three World Cup finals and lost them all. But a combined Dutch and GB team in its different forms would have won more. Absolutely.

Yeah, I don't know what we're talking about this, but it's a great, it's a great counter-history. Yeah, so she turned down the offer of sovereignty Elizabeth I, though she did agree to help militarily via the Treaty of Nonsuch in 1585, becoming a kind of Protestant protector of the Dutch. An attempt was then made to install William of Orange himself as Count of Holland, but in 1584, William of Orange was assassinated. He was shot dead by a French Catholic zealot in Delft. And in being assassinated, he'd become one of the first heads of state in history to be killed by a handgun.

The first gun shooting political assassination, yeah. After that, the leaders of the... Is that sort of claim to fame you want when you're swaggering around heaven? Not to brag, but I'm the first. Fun fact, a dinner party. After that, the leaders of the United Provinces reached a radical conclusion. They did not need another king,

and so they decided, we're going to form a republic. So the Dutch Republic was formally established in 1588, which was the same year that the Spanish Armada was destroyed in the channel. And it was recognised as a fully sovereign state by England and France in 1596 when the three countries formed an alliance against Spain.

and what followed was one of the most extraordinary golden ages in European history. I wonder if Elizabeth I would kick in herself at this point. Because 17th century Netherlands produced the paintings of Rembrandt and Vermeer, the philosophy and international law of Hugo Grosius, the scientific work of Christian Huggins, who was, of course, the inventor of the pendulum clock. So for a small waterlogged country that had just clawed itself free of the greatest empire in Europe, it goes on to have this incredible century.

I very flattered that you've chucked in the phrase who was of course the inventor of the pendulum clock He did more than that I would go, oh of course Of course it's the bad guy Yeah, that guy Of course he's invented the pendulum clock Yeah

I think he discovered the rings on Saturn I'm not sure about that Did he? I'm not sure I mean I hate to suggest the old Google Life jacket again Chris But I don't know why we're throwing these things out Did Christian Hughes

the rings on Saturn. Let's throw out the Google Life Belt. Christian Huggins was the first person to correctly explain and describe Saturn's rings. There you go. Hang on. Although Galileo was the first to see them. Oh, nice one. So your life jacket's now been popped.

Oh, well, almost. Half a half of memory, but vaguely accurate. It sounds a little, I'm not sure I believe Galileo. I'm just sort of chuck that in there in an attempt to. Yeah, but I saw them first. He spoke to be shotgun, Saturn, but got nothing to back it up.

Yeah, I saw it. I saw it. I know you explained him. I saw it first. Oh, hang on. I'm just reading. Galileo had a very basic telescope. He thought he could see large what he described as ears behind Saturn. Christian Huggins had a far better telescope, and he realized the features were a thin ring. So I think I'm back on.

It wasn't the ears. I thought it was. Okay, the ears of Saturn. Right, back to the Dutch. So the engine of the Dutch Republic was actually a success. And one of the reasons why it was such a success is something that was unheard of in early modern Europe. It had tremendous religious toleration.

So the Dutch actively welcomed Jews and Protestants of every stripe, many of whom had been expelled from Spain and Portugal. And along with them came expertise in banking, credit, and the emerging science of the stock market. This human capital transformed the Dutch economy. economy almost overnight. And that well-funded exploration and trade. So in 1602, you get the Dutch East India Company,

which was founded to sieves the spice routes from India and Southeast Asia. Dutch ships followed English merchants into the Ottoman Empire and Russia. In the 1620s, the Dutch West India Company was established. Its colony of New Netherland, centered on the Hudson Valley, contained a growing settlement called New Amsterdam, which would eventually become known as New York. New York. Ten points.

Fantastic. So the Dutch Revolt did more than just kind of create a new country. It actually changed the trajectory of Europe. And it could have been so different if Elizabeth I had claimed the Netherlands, we would have seen the likes of Rood Hullet wearing the Three Lions. The Protestant nations that watched it unfold, England and the Netherlands especially, drew a lesson. Great wealth, they realised, did not come from religious conquest or crusading.

It came from trade, banking, speculation, and from immigration. Toleration, in other words, worked. And while Spain doubled down on inquisition and expulsion and grew steadily poorer, the Dutch grew steadily richer by embracing almost anyone who could contribute to their new republic. The values we now associate with the Enlightenment, pluralism, tolerance and civil liberty, didn't begin in 18th century Paris or London. It's a good argument. They began at the end of the 16th century in a small waterloged corner of northwestern Europe

when a group of Dutch Protestants finally decided that, had had enough of the Spanish. And they're also all about 7 foot 5, having been on a campsite with a lot of Dutch people this summer. Yeah. Very tall, very tall country. Virgil Van Dyke, great example. Holleyt was tall, von Bastum was tall.

They're big guys. Do we know when anyone Dutch who isn't a footballer? Yes. I'm trying to think we... All after five, name one Thursdays he isn't a footballer. Five, four, three, two, One. Vincent Van Gogoff.

Oh, yes. Is he? Yes, he was Dutch, isn't he? Yes. Yeah, that's very good. Did you have many others to go after that, Ellis? No, because I thought of Vincent Van Gogh,

and I just thought, brilliant, I get to say Vincent Van Gogh. And do you know what? I can't believe I'm saying this. I thought, that's probably the one, the other two will mention as well. But no, no one got there. Is Paul Van Dyke Dutch, or is he German? What's Paul Van Dyke? Let's find out.

Have I got one as well? The early 90s dance group Two Unlimited were Dutch. Yes. I was struggling. I was getting hung up on Gina G. Yeah, yeah. No, no. She wasn't Dutch.

So Two Unlimited were Dutch. There you go. Vincent van Gogh. There are others. Ellis has absolutely nailed that round. Well done. I'm well done. I've smashed it.

Well, there you go. That's the end of part one of the formation of countries. If you want part two right now, you can get it. You can go to patreon.com forward slash oh water time. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, part two. Bye. Bye. Oh, what a time is now on Patreon.

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