Oh What A Time... - #203 Dragons And All That (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week we’re talking Dragons from down the ages! They’ve come in all different forms through the annuls of history, we’ve got; what the ancient Romans referred to as the ‘Draco’, the Asian Dragon and the featured servants of ancient Central America.Elsewhere, has THE INTERNET made a historians life far easier? The internet has ALL THE INFORMATION EVER - surely Hugh Redwald Trevor-Roper would’ve loved it. If you’ve got anything to add on this or IF YOU HAVE ANY 2003 PROBLEMS, do get in touch: [e-mail] if you want more Oh What A Time and both parts at once, you should sign up for our Patreon! On there you’ll now find: • The full archive of bonus episodes • Brand new bonus episodes each month • OWAT subscriber group chats • Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show • PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, What a Time is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else, add free, plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month, early access to live show tickets, and access to the O Watertime Group chat. Plus, if you become an O Watertime All-Timer, myself, Tom and Ellis, will riff on your name to postulate

where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O Watertime. Hello and welcome to part two of dragons. Let's get on with the show. I'm not going to tell you lovely boys are all about the dragons of Asia. Okay.

So Chris, you've talked about ancient Rome and stuff and generally the European dragons are sort of depicted as frightening. That's sort of the vibe in Europe. They're fire breathing, their killers, they're creatures of conflict. In Asia, though.

I love the look of them, though. I do as well, yeah, yeah. I went out to Portugal to watch Wales Luz on Thursday night and seen the Wales end with all of the dragons, all of the flags. I just love it. I think they look cool. No, I completely agree. I think the Welsh flag is fantastic.

I don't know if I've ever said that to you. But it's a beautiful, I mean, the idea of having a dragon on your flag is so cool. Isn't that awesome? Is the Welsh flag not a bit year six primary score draw your own flag? Mate, you try to enjoy it. Also, dragons are famously hard. Yeah, they are famously hard to grow. I mean, having been in year six in primary school

and tried to draw on what the Welsh flag, they just all look like bad dogs. It's a project for maybe year one at art school when you're 19. But year six, you've lost your mind if you think you can draw a dragon in year six. I'll tell you what I'll say about the Welsh flag. Most flags are just like geometric patterns. There's not many flags.

with a thing in it, like a discernible thing, like a dragon. And what a thing as well. I mean, as I say, I'm with you well, I love a dragon. The European dragon is a fearsome one. In Asia, though, generally it's not that sort of vibe. In Asia, okay, dragons are seen as far more gentle figures. So in each of the countries of that region, so Bhutan, Cambodia, China, Japan, Korea, Laos, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nepal, Thailand,

and Vietnam, that is the usual perception of the dragon, that they are sort of quite chilled out. They are seen as wise creatures of good fortune. That's what they're seeing. Do you know what I think this is? The bearded dragon, the lizard, is quite a docile pet, isn't it? That's interesting. So maybe they thought, yeah, they're quite chilled out, actually.

Whereas in Europe, where we were just imagining dragons. Yes. Well, a lot of it actually is tied into its use for powers, basically. They're used for the ruling powers for the royal family, and the way they use dragons to sell an image. of themselves. And this is largely where this idea has come from. So I'll take you through this. The most celebrated dragon in East Asia is, of course, that found in China, where examples of artistic representation of this have been found dating back five or six thousand years. That's how long

the depiction of dragons in China, sort of in China's history has been around. There's a brilliant Chinese restaurant in West London that I've been to a couple of times, which has a dancing dragon that dances around throughout the entire meal. And I absolutely cannot get enough of it. It pretends to eat your food. It's hilarious. What are you talking about? Is there anything you can't bring back to Chinese takeaways? Takeaways. It's not a takeaway. It's a nice restaurant and about three or four times in the night, this big dragon will dance around with people dressed in the costume and it will pretend to eat your food at the table. It's not an actual dragon. What kind of meal is this? The three of us are good friends.

We should come out for a Chinese because Tom clearly. I would love that. Clearly wants that. Do you remember what happened the last time the three of us went out for a Chinese? Do you remember? Yes. Do you remember? I said there's a really good Chinese about half an hour up the road if we want to walk. Tom went, no, no, no, we'll go to this Chinese over here across the road.

I had Googled it. Easily the worst meal I've ever had. Yeah, yeah. I misjudge that. But when we go for our group Chinese and there's a drag of pretending to eat my crispy beef, you look me in the eye and say you're not having a good time, because I promise you, you're having a great time. As I'm hand-feeling a dragon, a chicken ball, you're going to be enjoying it.

Right. Back to history. Okay. So this dates 5,000, 6,000 years, this idea of dragons in China. There are two principal examples that survive. There's a jade dragon, which is found in Chifang, which is north of Beijing in in 1971. That is said to be about 5,000 years old.

There's also the clamshell dragon, which is an early sort of little model that's found. That was found in Puyang, which is south of Beijing. And that's seen to be about 6,500. hundred years old. Isn't that it's incredible? The depictions of these dragons that old. Her first example comes from Hongshan culture, the latter, from the Anshal culture. These are two of China's neolithic ancestors. And it's kind of clear that the Chinese dragon provides the inspiration for other examples in the region elsewhere. It suggested that the earliest surviving depictions elsewhere are Korea in the 5th and 6th century CE, Japan in the 7th and 8th century C.E.

where the sources are both artistic and written, and in Cambodia, where they date from the 8th century CE. Aren't you sort of, I think about this, aren't you glad you live in a time where you don't think that dragons are real? I'm just thinking what a weight that would have on your day and your week, if in the back of your mind you're thinking dragons are real and they could appear at any time. Surely mythical creatures that could help you are also in the mix.

That is true. Heaven is in the mix. Some sort of amazing afterlife is in the mix. So you could look at the rough of the smooth, yeah. Is it more interesting life? Do you think, even though there aren't as many variables, it feels like there are. You know, wizards and...

Imagine a scene. We've gone out for a pint. We're having a nice time, but we're all thinking at any point we could get attacked and eaten by a dragon. How is that affecting that pint and the hour we're spending together? Otherwise, having that hour could be a full evening.

It's a bit like drinking when you've when you've taken antibiotics. And you're like, listen, it's going to give me diarrhea either way. So I may as well really go for it. So you're getting the shots in, is what you're saying? I'm getting shots in if I think drunken are involved. You might though, Ellis. There's, you know, there are some mythical ideas, or not even mythical, whatever your belief system is,

that feel warmer and more comforting. And that is the case in Asia. As I say, these dragons were seen. as points of providence and kind of, they were caring beasts, essentially. And this synchronisation or spread of this idea of this Chinese civilization and culture was essentially, it's indicative of the country's long dominance over East Asian art, diplomacy, trade and ideas of government at that point. Because of this, rulers in neighbouring countries, especially those which call themselves empires,

they saw in the Chinese example something to be emulated or otherwise kind of usefully fused to local mythology. So essentially, neighboring countries saw that China celebrated the dragon. They thought, could be useful if we do the same. And very quickly, it became part of their culture as well. One of the prevailing beliefs held was that the Chinese dragon, as well as being kind and benevolent, also controlled the weather. So this is the other belief and therefore controlled the conditions for rain and crop growing. So the meteorological association is perhaps clearist in Bhutan.

Why is that? Imagine being. Like we've had a, we've just come out of the back of an incredibly hot summer in London. Yeah. You know, in the UK more generally and certainly in Europe, but in London in particular where the three of us live, there were, I think, 55 days or something with no rain. So everything in my garden is dead.

Now, if I thought that was my fault. And, you know, you're live, obviously I go to Sainsbury's because it's my nearest supermarket. it so I don't want for anything. But if that was my only food source and I thought it was my fault, it didn't rain for 55 days, it would be terrible. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The feeling of helplessness.

Yes. Well, at least you'd have a dragon to blame, though, in this situation. You could blame this dragon. You can't reason with a dragon. Rhododendrum have died. It's because of the dragon. I can't say, come on, mate, my hydrange is.

Oh, fuck, you need to help me, out you? So this belief was got of most acute in Bhutan, where Druck is the thundrum. Thunder Dragon, hence the name of the country, who's once known as Drukyal, which is the land of the thunder dragon. How cool is that? Say, where do you come from? I come from the land of the thunder dragon. Here's a fun fact.

These days, Bhutan is the only sovereign country to have a dragon on its flag, although the old flag is often. Another one. It's seen often enough. Yeah, exactly. Now, there was very clear rules on the depiction of Chinese dragons, not least around the number of claws. This is a key thing in China. only the imperial throne were allowed to use an image of a five-clore dragon. So if you see a five-clore dragon in any sort of Chinese art,

that is an image which reflects the imperial throne, which was called the dragon throne by the first emperor of China. The nobility, they had the four-clore dragons. You see an image of a four-clore dragon, that reflects nobility. The Japanese equivalent of these is the Rayu, which is three claws. And for some reason, the Korean dragon had a long beard, which feels like the last thing you'd want, If you're fire breathing, the idea of a massive beard when you can breathe fire.

Like the cover of the Pink Floyd album, Mush, you were here, the two businessmen in suits who are on fire shaking hands. Exactly, this is there. If you're a fire breathing dragon with a beard, no one's thought that through. Shaving off, you've only got yourself to blame. Just, Crane, I'm looking at a five-clored dragon. And it's anatomically not been thought through. It's basically like a worm.

with just random arms shooting off all over the place. I don't think this makes it any more noble or scary. It just looks odd. If it could speak, it looks like it would be going, kill me now. As we will find out, you'd have to be very careful who you said that to. You'd not want to slag off that dragon in China back in the day because it would not have worked out well for you.

Just to quickly explain this five-cloth or four-claw thing, this wasn't random. The accommodation of five-clore and four-claw in the court creates the number nine. The number nine is associated with heaven in Chinese numerology. So nine's a very important number. That's why five and four together in the great spirit wall scenes found across China in palaces in royal gardens. There are nine dragons always depicted. The dragon itself has nine attributes. The dragon king, the dragon god himself had nine sons. The dragons have a deliberate number of scales, so 117 in total, which is nine times 13, comprising 81 Yang scales,

nine times nine, 36 yin scales, nine times four. So nine is basically everywhere. So the reason it was five and four was crucial. And to come back to that point, Chris, any guess is what would happen if you were caught doodling a five-clog dragon when you weren't part of nobility or bad-mouthing one? What could happen? Oh, some horrendous punishment that's completely disproportionate. De-Lind. Death? It's always death, basically. Always death. In fact, there were plenty of stories of despotic emperors ordering artists and he asked the artist to draw the dragon and they would then kill the artists and their families after they'd finish the painting sculpting or otherwise because

it was supposed to be a royal thing so they shouldn't have been making it even though they'd been ordered to make it in the first place they would then be killed oh that's a tough commission isn't it it really is yeah it has to pay well you're asking for the money up from so being self-employed has been difficult for thousands of years your agent ringing is saying i've got you Good job. On the plus side it pays well, on the downside. It will be your last payday. It will sort out your very extended family. Exactly. The importance of the dragon has remained since the designation of a throne in the name of the dragon through to the creation of China's first national flag in 1862 with the dragon as a principal element on that design. This creature

has not only been an indication of imperial power and authority, but also a figure closely associated with Chinese culture. So you only need to think of the dragon boat racing, the gymnastic displays, or the dragon dance, or the use of the dragon poy, the Chinese zodiac, for example, where the dragon is the only mythical creature included. This is the importance of dragons in China. And to finish, I'll just tell you about the impact of this on other countries, because it really had a real bleed, this fascination of dragons really bled out across Asia. In Korea, for example, the dragon was not only a symbol of the king's power. Korean monarchs wore a dragon robe similar to that worn by Chinese emperors as a projection of military strength. They also adorned their warships with it. Imagine this for a scary

thing coming towards you, okay? This is what Korean warships had. Korean warships at the front of the boat would have a large dragon's head, which they would rig up with all sorts of theatrics. So as it was approaching you, smoke would be billowing out of the mouth of the dragon's head. And then, head which was on front of the warship. These these called turtle ships, these huge Korean warships, would be coming towards you with, you know, wanting to slay you all and out of the front of their boat is

a fire-breathing dragon, essentially. How unsettling would that be? I suppose the final question is this. Why did Neolithic Chinese invent the dragon in the first place? That brings us back to the creature's association with water and weather. It's a creature that kind of provided the elements necessary for

life and for the growing of staple crops. And in a sense, it was a Chinese echo of a much older dragon myth. This is how old these myths have abound. You talked about it, Chris. They're so old. They were found in Africa, not least in the rock art of Lesotho, where a rain snake panel dated around 75,000 years ago. Wow. Lossoetho. Yes. Is that what's cool. Losoetoeto? Losoetho. There you go. Is it Losoooo? Yeah. It's one of the two. 75,000 years ago seems uncannily like the great dragons of the east. In other words, ancient humans needed some kind of serpentine creature

to give them confidence in the next meal. So this has just been there forever. 75,000 years ago, these beasts would be depicted. And as we was just once again bring you back, maybe it was dinosaur bones that sort of, I'm willing to, I'm going to leap on your idea there. I think possibly you might be right.

Good. I think, you know, we've got lots of listeners. I think it's important to inject complete myth into the discourse. Conjecture. I think it's important to, yeah, just to chuck a bit of conjecture up there. Exactly. Were they based on dinosaur bones? Whom knows?

Now, in the Americas, the dragon, long for absent from their indigenous cultures, took on a form that a lot different from the Asian dragons or the European dragons are now effectively recognised as dragons. Biggest difference, and this is huge for me, in fact, The use of feathers rather than scales, which for me makes them far less scary. Well, apparently dinosaurs did have feathers. They think that now, don't they? So I guess, Anna Toil, again, the dragon, I know it's mythological,

but if it's based on dinosaurs, then it probably does have feathers. And also, a feathered dinosaur is still scaring the shit done of me. Who am I kidding? In the never-ending story, is he woolly? Is that right? I think he is, yeah, he's furry. That's the other option. There's a never-ending story.

Remember that guy? That movie from the 80s? Is that a dragon in the never-ending story? I never knew what that was. I think it is. You know, the dragon, I think. When I was a kid, a diseased crow used to come to our house. And he had this disease where all of the feathers had fallen off his face. So it looked a little bit like a vulture.

And I told everyone that it was a dinosaur. And an awful lot of people mocked me and took the piss. And then I had friends on for a birthday party or something. And then the dinosaur bird came to me. visit. It was on our swing and I was like, there we go. It's a dinosaur and all of the children freaked the fuck out. And even though people were scared, I'm thinking, I'm glad. Because now you believe me. You convinced them. They left believers. It was just all of, all of his feathers had come off his face. It must have had some disease, some weird crow disease. But he looked like a dinosaur.

Oh, poor thing. I remember saying to my dad, that's a dinosaur. He said, no, it's a diseased crow. It's a disagreement. Agree to disagree. It does reflect the status attached to feathers. So especially in the Meso-American culture in Central and South America, because feathers, I mean, feathers, they had a value equivalent to gold or to jade or to turquoise stones. So feathers were quite a big deal.

Now, those tasks with creating artworks from feathers, the Amanteca, were recognized specialists. So they lived in their own district called Amantler. They were exempted from tax. axes as well, all to enable them to work. So in other words, the feather, which was gathered from birds such as the McCaw and the hummingbird and diseased crows in my back garden, Matt had a great deal. And so like the number nine in China, they came to be associated with the dragon gods. It's also known as feathered serpents. So you had the Quetzal-Lockol in the Aztec Empire and

the Kekulkan in the Mayan Empire. Quetzalakotl was the Aztec god of the wind and was noted for his intelligence and his knowledge. So was the patron of priest. He was a very sort of closely related to institutional religion, but he was also the god who stole corn from the mountain of provision. That feels like a mistake, isn't it? Yes. To steal from the mountain of provision feels like a big call and something that later on in the film you're going to come to regret.

That's a big trope in Greek mythology, isn't it? Like, okay, you can do all this stuff, but don't do this one thing. But don't do this one thing. And as long as you don't do this one thing, everyone will have plenty forever. and then some idiot does the one thing, yeah. And then it's always doing the one thing. And remember you're a god, so you can literally do everything, so you're fine. Yeah.

So he stole corn from the mountain provision, gave it to humans, thereby allowing them to eat proper food rather than roots pulled out the ground. And as with the Chinese dragon, this act was the sign of the sort of dragon or the serpent's benevolence. The centre of this cult was at Chautuacan in modern day Mexico. Now, there's a temple dedicated to his worship, which is built in the second century CE, with veneration becoming more widespread in Mesoamerica in the centuries prior to the Spanish conquest. I think we should do the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica as a topic. I was reading about the other day.

It's absolutely fascinating. So Kukulkin's own temple can be founded at Chichenitsa. It's also called Est Castillo. That was completed by around a thousand C.E. Now, if these feathered serpents of Central and South America bring to mind, you know, the dragons of elsewhere. Then the same could be said of the North American alternatives, such as the Piazza Bird,

which was found painted on the limestone cliff near what is now Alton, Illinois, but was historically the city of Cahokia. But that was discovered by a Frenchman called Jacques Marquette in 1673. He described the dragons having red eyes, horns and scales, like a European dragon. It's classic. Classic dragon, isn't it?

Welsh dragon. If I saw that appearing out of the darkness, I turned to you and go, that screams classic drag. Yeah, yeah. So this guy, he's like, I'm closing my eyes. I'm thinking of Mark Hughes. I'm thinking of Ian Rush.

I'm thinking of Neville Southall, Dean Saunders, sort of on the left-hand side. So this was obviously, the European Dragon was obviously his reference point. Now, sadly, the original no longer exists because it was destroyed by quarrying operations in the area. In the 19th century, such a shame, isn't it? Now, the Piazza Dragon was probably the local version

of the continent, concept, this is scary, of the underwater panther, which is the nearest you get to the North American dragon, and especially associated with the Great Lakes and the northeastern woodlands region. So one observer said, Mishi Peshu, an underwater monster or panther, whose dragon-like tail could lash a lake into a vicious squall or treacherously shift a current in the rapids

to swap the canoe of the less than respectful travellers. So you're in one of the great lakes, you're taking a piss, a dragon swishes the water and you die. The gorge could be appeased by throwing tobacco or a pet dog overboard. A pet dog? A pet dog? A pet dog? Now, I'm thinking about how sort of attach my kids are to the cats.

I'm sure it's the same with dogs. If you're like, listen, we're on a lake. We need to keep this bloody dragon appeased. Can I throw Fido overboard? Or just chuck your fags in. But I really need the fagg. as the other traveller. I'm addicted. The thing about ancient history

and like those sacrifices is that nearly all the time they're making a bad situation worse. Like you've had a famine or a drought. What should we do? Oh, well, I've got a dog. Is the last bit of happiness I've got left? Let's sacrifice that and see if that changed things.

So there are echoes of Asian dragons. So the Iroquoian version, the Panther, for instance, known by various names. The Meteor Dragon is one. He was serpentine, had four claws. But all the variance related to water, and they were very protective of copper, which was an abundant but very precious resource. So if you tried to remove it, it would anger, Mishipershu, and his wrath, they fell through storms or the misfortune.

So unlike the Asian dragons, which were generally benevolent and kind, or the European dragons, which were in the main warlike and aggressive, with their fire-breathing abilities, of course. North American dragons were a mix. They were sometimes gentle, they were sometimes not. Now there was Amhaluk And he was a dragon like creature Found in the Indigenous folklore of Oregon So here this dragon was said to make the ground soft wherever it walks And brought disease and fog in its wake

A nice one As a caution he told the tale told to children Stories of the Amaluk Are related to the creature was in the habit Of pulling humans under the water And drowning them So it all sounds pretty scary stuff Now the Amaluk legend

Was first related to a general audience In the 1890s together with other instances of North American Dragons. The story was included in the book of American folklore. Now, that was written by a New York-based journalist, a guy called Charles Montgomery Skinner, and he believed in the importance of myths to the national psyche, and he saw them as an importance of bullwalk

against modern industrial capitalism and modernity. And even Yuval Noah Harari's written about this. Nations tell each other, tell themselves stories. Yeah. Well, lessons are passed through them as well, aren't they, often? and how you treat others and standing up for your country and all this is what it happens to be.

So then, as now, folklore thrived because it seemed to provide an anchor point and a stable past and an unstable present. So a lot of it was made up, invented or fused together, and it was all to prove a point. So Skinner wrote, it is unthinkingly said and often

that America's not old enough to have developed a legendary era for such an era grows backward as a nation grows forward. And such was his patriotic sense of duty that when America began to develop his empire in the wake of the Spanish-American War of 1898, he immediately wrote a sequel to his book on American myths

called Myths and Legends of Our New Possessions. So what he thought he was doing with this project was restoring what the Spanish had by virtue of their Catholic zeal rooted out. So it was a sort of Americanism. So the United States was thrown off the imperial yoke of the Europeans and acting as a leading light of indigenous American culture and traditions. So he thought he was replacing some Spanish traditions

with older ones. Really interesting. Yeah. That's nation building, isn't it? Myths are a massive part of nation building. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think that's a great idea. I'll just go back.

The Spanish conquest. Yeah, yeah. That era of Spain is fascinating. Well, we'll have to get down on the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, well, absolutely. So you've got the scary dragons, nice dragons and the importance of myths.

Didn't expect the nice dragons. I must admit. I thought they were all fire breathing, but I've obviously been, I'm wrong. I know Asian dragons are then meant to be the nice ones. I think they look the scariest because of the teeth. Yeah, yeah. Asian dragons look like they could really tear you apart,

whereas like the Welsh dragon, its claws aren't that terrifying and neither are its teeth, but the teeth on the Asian dragon is terrifying. The Welsh dragon's got scarier. If you look at the flags in the 50s and 60s, they often look like sort of West Island terriers, but in red. Let's have a look. 1950s Welsh flag.

Let's see what we get. It's very rudimentary. Yeah, it is. And I've seen like... Do you want to see them? This is the 1950s Welsh flag I've just seen. This looks like primary school stuff. Well, if you, if, like I've seen footage like the great 70s rugby team playing.

And the flags the fans have in the, in the sort of on the terraces are pretty shit, actually. The 1950s Welsh dragon is almost got like Do-Arts. It's not like he's putting his sort of claws up. It's like he's sort of waving and it's sort of, hiya. That's what it feels like, it looks like he's flagging down a cab. It doesn't look like he's tearing somebody to piece with his claw. He's like going, oh, that's me. No, it looks like he's calling for the bill.

Whose jacket? Who's jacket is this? Oh, mine, sorry. Excuse me, excuse me, mate. Can I give me the bill, please? Yeah, yeah, cheers, thank you. Also, the ratio of it, I don't know what it is, but the dragon in the 155, these Welsh flag looks like the size of a dog, like a small dog. Yeah, yeah. No, it got good by the 80s. It got good.

Well, there you are. Thank you very much. That was a great episode. Thank you to Dr. Darrell Leeworthy, our fantastic historian. What an interesting subject that was. If you have any ideas for future subjects, if you're a patron subscriber, that do get in contact. If you have anything else you want to get in contact with the show about, you can email us on hello at ohosatime.com.

And we will see you for all history very, very, very, very, very soon. Goodbye. Bye. Oh Watertime is now on Patreon. You can get main feed episodes before everyone else. Add free. Plus access to our full archive of bonus content, two bonus episodes every month,

early access to live show tickets and access to the Oh Watertime group chat. Plus if you become an Oh Watertime All-Timer, myself Tom and Ellis will riff on your name to postulate where else in history you might have popped up. For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash oh water time.