Oh What A Time... - #33 Conflict (Part 1)

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

This week we're looking at partakers in conflict from down the ages. The awful job of 'powder monkeys' during naval battles, female warriors of pre-modern Japan and then there's Selim II; the Sultan of the Ottoman empire who earned the interesting nickname 'the drunkard'. Plus our bonus bit for the OWAT: Full Timers this week - Tommy Atkins!.. the personification of the Great British soldier during the First World War. Also, there's lots to get in touch with this week: anyone gone lips to teat? Have you a cooler relative than the one featured in our correspondence? Can you tell us about a job worse than being a powder monkey? Do let us know: [e-mail] This is Part One (Part Two will be out tomorrow), but if you want both parts now and a whole lot more, why not become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 to support the show, you'll get: - the 4th part of every episode and ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - a bonus episode every month - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening! We’ll see you tomorrow for Part 2! BYE! Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Looking for a collaborator for your career? A strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.y'm S. James. And I'm Tom Crane. And each week on this show, we'll be looking at a brand new historical subject. And today,

ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be discussing conflict. That's right. We'll be discussing Selling the Second, aka Selling the Drunkard, female samurai's powder monkeys. And for our bonus bit for the O'Watertime full-timers, the British Army soldier, the good old-fashioned Tommy. British Tommy. Tommy Atkins. Tommy Atkins. That's his full name.

The man who came up with that famous diet, Tommy Atkins. He's remembered so much, of course, for his time at war, but really his real his real legacy is real his real gift is the low carb diet a very high protein diet how are you both l before we kick off i want to ask you a question um because this is a history subject we're recording this today on mother's day am i right in thinking you went on a historical Mother's Day outing today? Is that what was your day? Well, we were meant to go on a very historical Mother's Day outing. We were meant to go to the Tower of London,

which I fancied for a very long time. And our daughter went with school, so she was going to show us around. It was going to be great. Your daughter was going to show you around? Yeah, we all went out for a drink last night, the three of us, and our respective girlfriends and wives were there. Yeah. And I gave Izzy a lie-in because she'd had a drink until about 20 past 10.

Then we realised it was raining. I'd only had about four hours kip and I couldn't be arsed. So we ended up going for a meal at a cafe, and then we went to watch a children's production of a fairy tale put on by volunteers that quite simply wasn't good enough. And I'll leave it there. I'll leave it there. I don't want to dig anyone out. They're volunteers.

My kids actually thoroughly enjoyed it. I wasn't in the mood. We haven't talked about this, but I did some did some history business myself oh what did you do i went away to avebury for a weekend a couple of weeks ago which is next to the tallest prehistoric human-made mound in europe silbury hill have you ever heard of silbury Hill no no okay where is it they think it was it was built in several stages like 2300 BC

and it is just a massive hill why did they build the hill no one knows okay no one knows isn't that mad like

and um took the kids to see it and naturally they were my daughter said can I tell you a secret I was like yeah

she said I don't like silvery so it's not far from Stonehenge then no it's not far it's that funny that part of England

where they're just like they're doing loads of like big kind of technical builds and no one

really knows why it's that mystery yeah the bigger people the bigger culture was big kind of technical builds. Yeah. And no one really knows why. It's that mystery. Yeah. The Beaker people, the Beaker culture was big. Yeah. I think that would be quite a calming thing to dedicate your life to,

just being a hill builder. It sounds quite nice. And sort of just what a lovely thing to do. What do you do? I build hills. I'm actually formulating the email and I will try and finish it tonight on another podcast,

which has links to this one because we're friends with them, Three Bean Salad which in my opinion is the funniest podcast around Henry Packer who we all know and who was there last night and who works very closely with Tom Crane dismissed Stonehenge out of hand

and it annoyed me so much What do you mean I thought I'm going to have to write an email about this what would be the argument it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site

yeah I mean it's a very it's a very comic argument it's a very comedic argument it's very funny like at one stage he said

it can't be that good look at how many people drive past it on the A303 it would be so amazing the woman would be stopping Very funny. Like at one stage, he said, it can't be that good. Look how many people drive past it on the A303. It was amazing. Everyone would be stopping. Which really made me laugh.

But yeah, you can't dismiss the henge, man. When you were going to Silbury Hill, what did you expect it was going to be when you were heading there? Well, when I drove past it, there were kids running up it. And I was like, well, that'd be quite exciting to walk up Silbury Hill. But then you get there and you realise those kids were ruffians and you're not allowed to walk up Silbury Hill. And I had a cover.

I had a one-year-old and a four-year-old with me. So I wasn't about to chance it and get arrested by English Heritage. Yes. Walking up a 4,000-year-old hill. So we left it. It would have been great publicity for the podcast, though, if you'd been nicked on Silbury Hill, a part of a complex of Neolithic monuments around Avebury,

which include the Avebury Ring and West Kennet Long Barrow. Its original purpose is still debated, is what you could be shouting as you're being led down in handcuffs. You'd have to drop in a reference to the podcast during the court case as well so that any journalist who's covering it yeah yeah just really push you so have you never heard of gonzo journalism yeah yeah so i'm trying to really understand the hill so we end up in i don't know the wiltshire herald or whatever it is whichever newspaper whichever local rag that's covering you. Mr Scull was really pushing the idea of subscriber benefits. And just £4.99 a month.

And what a time for timers. Get ad-free. The judge constantly asking you to move on. Yeah, a chipper in Crown Court. Brune, held in contempt of court. Mr Scull, would the defendant please refrain from talking about the subscriber benefits and how good it must be for everyone's sense of mind if they become a, oh, what a time full timer. I do not care if there's an extra part every episode.

That was not the time, Mr. Skull. Anyway, right. Talking of subscribers and non-subscribers, because you're all wonderful, you're all lovely, you're very valued, whatever role you play. Should we get into some correspondence from our listeners? Should we do that? Should we kick off a bit of that before we get into the history? What do you reckon? Let's do it. Yeah. Over to you, Al. Okay. This is a great email, this. Hey guys, one of your full-timers here. In your last episode, you mentioned the wooden horse in the escape from Stalag Luft 3.

One of the escapees you mentioned, Williams, was my great-uncle, Eric Williams, who wrote the book that was made into a film. I mean, the tentacles of this podcast. Over the years, my gran, Eric's younger sister, who was ferociously proud of Eric's achievements, spoke endlessly about his achievements. She has gradually given me her copies of his first edition,

alongside all the paperwork and information collected over the years related to Eric's escape, including the records of his interviews on his return to the UK, some of the kit that he carried with him, the letter sent back and forth between him and my great-grandmother and his medals, which include the military cross. Wow. Sadly, my gran passed away at the end of February, aged 104. Wow. she was very ill slept most of the day and was hardly able to speak but hearing about my visit to the exhibition she found the energy to check

they'd mentioned the wooden horse escape alongside the great escape yes I told her good she said as the great escapers didn't even get back a bit more bit of her

to suggest they were frauds considering what happened to them but I let it slide it was one of the last things I heard her say and even on the edge of death, she wanted to make sure that people were getting their facts right. Classic grand behaviour.

I'm not entirely sure why I felt I needed to share this with you, but there we go. Keep up the good work, Martin Ricks. That is just incredible. Great historical relative. A little round of applause for a quality relative, I think. Yeah. historical relative. A little round of applause for a quality relative, I think. Yeah.

We have had the first of what I imagine will be hundreds of emails on the subject of Lipster Teat. And it's from Nick. Hello. If I could go Lipster Teat with any animal, it would be with a country's cannibal rabbit.

I'd have a wee drink while she reads me a Barbara Coughlin novel in those smooth, sultry tones. Thanks, Nick. I love that. Sorry, so who is he going Lipstete with? Nick would... I'm not going to give his full name.

I don't want him to lose his job over this, but Nick would go Lipstete with the Cadbury's Caramel Rabbit. With the Cadbury's Caramel Rabbit. I am confident that Cadbury's will have rounded off the teats in the shaping of the rabbit. I think that sort of perfect biologically, you know, I just don't think it's going to be that sound exactly. It's going to be more of a cartoonish shape. Surely it's not got sucklable teats. Well, she wasn't...

You suckle upon the Cadbury's chocolate rabbit teat. What's coming out? Is it caramel? Caramel or milk? Is it chocolate sauce? Or is it rabbit? Is it milk? Or is it cream egg? Rabbit milk.

The inside of a cream egg. I don't think, maybe I'm wrong, I don't think that the Cadbury's caramel rabbit was biologically... Yeah, sound. Yeah. I'm trying to think of the right phrase. I agree. Biologically robust.

Yeah. You could make the Cadbury's caramel rabbit, but it would die instantly. If you went to veterinary school, for example, and they teach you the ways of the rabbit, that is not the image they're putting on the screen. It's not robust. The Cadbury's Caramel Rabbit,

as attractive as she was, she was designed to sell chocolate. She wasn't designed to breed. To mother young. Exactly. Do you know what? She was's let's not be around the bush she was an attractive rabbit yeah absolutely very briefly chris you asked what would come out of the tea you mentioned the inside of a cream egg yeah it wouldn't be that it's too thick

i just want to briefly say something about that. I have a problem with that stuff inside a cream egg. I don't understand how people can like it. It is too full on a flavour. It is too much for a human. I really do believe that. I've never finished a camera cream egg. I can't believe that people manage it. I have one bite and I go, well, that's obviously me done for a year.

That is so intense. One of the writers on Fancy Football yeah has one a day he does you can't get them year round

they're seasonal aren't they like strawberries you can't get them out of Easter he does every day every day

he gets a cream egg in like October well I think he probably buys them in batch to see them through the year exactly he buys a year's worth of cream egg I think he probably buys them in batch to see them through the year. Exactly. He buys a year's worth of cream eggs.

I think he's got a mini fridge which is purely for the Cadbury's cream eggs to keep them at the correct temperature throughout

the year. But he eats one a day. He never has more than one a day but he does have one a day. Tom, you're going to find this disgusting

but I remember as a kid being really disappointed at Easter because I asked for a Cadbury's cream egg Easter egg. I was disappointed in the same way disappointed because i thought the big egg would be full of the cream egg so when i when i tucked into it and it was hollow i thought it'd be my i thought it'd be like a pint of gloop that would see me through the year if you drank a pint of cadbury's Cream Egg Gloop. You'd be dead within an hour.

Imagine the consistency, the viscosity of the Cream Egg Gloop in a pint as you try to tip it into your own mouth. I couldn't survive that. For the completest amongst us and our listenership, I'm now going to make the following statement. Cadbury's Cream Egg Gloop is my least favourite liquid. You now know at one end we have custard as my favourite and at the other end it is Cadbury's Cream Egg Gloop.

That is absolutely my least favourite liquid. And I know some know-it-alls are going to email in saying, actually, I think you're fine, it's a semi-viscous whatever. In my mind it's a liquid and it's also a travesty. Cadbury's Cream Egg Gloop. Say that's a 10. If they could turn it down to 8, it would be delicious. Yes.

But I agree with Tom. You could do it yourself. Just put a bit of water in it. Loosen it up. But you can't be spending your life watering down your Cream Egg Gloop. That's not a thing you could be hunched over the sink every day. Trying to get it back in again. Put it in a bowl or something.

It's like a bath. It's like an amp that's been turned up to 10. Turn it down to 8 and we're all having a much better time. Thank you. I think it was Nick who sent that email in. If you have any points of view on Lipster Teat, what animal you'd most likely, or what animal you'd

most like to go Lipster Teat with, what animal milk you've yet to try animal you'd most like to go lips to teat with what animal milk you've yet to try you'd one day like to try have you got any particularly cool relatives which really is the sort of stuff we should be shoving more uh sort of historical relatives is really the backbone of this show um any one day time machine stuff anything here is how you get in contact with the show and cabri's cream head gloop yes all right you horrible lot here's how you can stay in touch with

the show you can email us at hello at oh what a time dot com and you can follow us on instagram and twitter at oh

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Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. So I'm going to be talking to you today about a role in battles called the Powder Monkey. And these guys were seen during the Battle of Trafalgar in the Great Age of Sailing, basically. I am discussing a topic that I think everyone's heard of but lots of people don't know anything about and that's the samurai that's interesting the bonus bit today from me is on the british tommy tommy atkins but i'm going to tell you now about selim the second otherwise known as selim the drunkard now, what is your favourite drink in the whole world?

Well, I wrote that question without even really thinking you were going to say custard. No, but to be fair, I say custard is a liquid. It's not really a drink. Custard is my favourite liquid.

That's weird. But my favourite drink. You were treating it as a drink when we were making that sitcom, Tom. You're walking around drinking a lot of Apollo Styrene. And you're drinking it from a cup. As if you're drinking it to your cup. It's a drink when we were making that sitcom, Tom. You're walking around drinking a lot of Apollo Styrene as if you're drinking to get to drink.

But for the arguments of discussion, my favourite drink probably is, and this is quite boring, water. I also love water. I couldn't live without other than water is coffee. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Coffee. What about alcoholic drink? What would be your number one alcoholic drink? Very commercial lager. Yeah,. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Coffee. Yeah. What about alcoholic drink?

What would be your number one alcoholic drink? Very commercial lager. Yeah, very commercial. Yeah. I like a pint of Guinness. I like red wine. Yeah, red wine?

Yeah, I like a light red wine. Well, would you like that drink? Say, I like Guinness. Can you imagine liking a drink so much? What would you do if I said, I love Guinness so much,

I'm going to invade Ireland so I can own the factories that make the drink wow because this is the road down which

Salem the second trod you know apparently when you steal loads of Guinness you've got to steal 70% of it and then you wait for a bit

and then you take the final third is that right kind of works as a concept wait guys wait wait now we can take the rest good and everyone out Is that right? Kind of works as a concept. Wait, guys, wait.

Wait, wait. Now we can take the rest. Good. And everyone out. Everyone can line up as a clover, please. And I know that they don't actually do that in Ireland, but still. Selim II was an Ottoman emperor.

Do you know his dad? Do you know his dad? His dad was called? Seluleiman the Magnificent. The Magnificent. Oh, that's great. We've talked about nicknames on here. I did the Ottoman Empire for my A-levels, so I've got a little bit of knowledge.

That's a fair amount of pressure, isn't it? Your dad is called something magnificent. What's your dad's name? Suleiman the Magnificent. Eirvil. So if he was Eirvil the Magnificent, pressure for you as a young boy in Carmarthen. You're sitting down to do your sats.

There he is, Eirvil the Magnificent's boy. Oh, yeah. What's he called? Ellis the Unremarkable. Oh, right. Never any good. He hasn't got a huge amount to offer, really. Suleiman the Magnificent, his son, Selim II,

nicknamed Selim the Drunkard. I mean, that's a fall from grace from the Magnificent, isn't it? Yeah. Not a good name. So 1566, Suleiman the Magnificent dies. His son takes over, Selim II. He's short and fat, even described in some parts as obese. And he was far more interested in the harem

than in government and politics. Now, as befitting his nickname, Suleiman had developed the empire, the Ottoman Empire. It's a major power in the Mediterranean, territory stretched from Europe through the Near East to North Africa, all sorts of materials flowing

into the imperial capital, Constantinople, including rich foods and fine wines. And Selim, as you could probably guess, loved a bit of booze. Yeah. In specifically notoriously strong Cypriot wine, which was known as Comandaria. Now, I've had a look at Comandaria. It looks like brandy, but like in a wine gloss.

It's like a dark brownish colour. Okay. I'm guessing we haven't had it. We haven't tried it. No. I haven't tried it. It's a bit it. No, but it's a bit like when we went on Tom's Stag in Bruges.

And what's so dangerous about drinking in Belgium is that you drink Belgian strength lager at English strength lager or British strength lager pace. So then after a couple of hours you've effectively had

six pints of wine. You're absolutely hammered. Which is why on the Stag and there were 25 of us there effectively had six pints of wine. Absolutely. Hammered. Which is why, on the stag, and there were 25 of us there, one of us had to call a paramedic because he thought his hangover was so bad he thought he was having a heart attack. So, I mean, that is...

We were all men in our 40s. It was absolutely pathetic. You mentioned this drink seemed like a brandy. A brandy doesn't seem like a... Wasn't me, by the way. Wasn't me. No, it wasn't. Or me.

Or me. I'll just put you out there. Although I was in a sorry state. But the brandy doesn't feel like a hot weather sort of Cypriot drink, does it? I've never sort of been away on holiday in Greece or thought, oh, do you know what I fancy now by the beach? A brandy. It feels like a cold weather drink, doesn't it?

Like a roaring fire. What do you do with brandy? Do you pour it on Christmas pudding? I don't know if I'd ever drink a brandy. No, you sip it. It's a short drink, I think. You sort of sip it on cold days.

I went through a phase of ending nights out by having a couple of brandies. Did you? Oh, and that amaretto as well. But it just used to sort of change my hangover

from nuclear to supersonic, so then I stopped doing it. When you say ending a night out, do you mean you go to the bar, order one, and everyone go, well, that's the fun gone. He's now having brandy. His night's clearly over. He's ended yet another night out. If they called last orders, I would have another pint and a brandy as well.

I don't know why he was doing that, but still, you know, he was the mid-2000s. It feels a bit try-hard, doesn't it? Do you have a book of poetry under your arm as well? Pop your smoking jacket on. Exactly. And open your book. Time to wind down now.

So this drink, yeah. Yeah, so it was invented around the time of the Crusades and this wine, along with its compatriot muscat, was very fashionable in the Ottoman court. So Selim drank so much of the stuff that he kind of became obsessed with it. He's writing poetry about what it's like to drink this drink. And he earned the nickname amongst Europeans as the Sot,

or as it might otherwise be known, Selim the Drunk. Selim the Drunkard. So this Cypriot wine was coming from the island itself but at the time cyprus was controlled by those experts on trade the venetians and so they were paying money into the ottoman exchequer for trading rights in the empire but they were also canny businessmen and recognized the commercial value of their wine and the unique appeal of Commandaria to Salem. Costs rose over time and Salem was convinced by his viziers that it would be better if he, which is to say them, the Ottomans,

controlled the source of Cypriot wine for themselves. Oh, how interesting. As well as the trade routes that flowed from Cyprus out into the Mediterranean. According to tradition, Salem is supposed to have said to his advisors, I propose to conquer Cyprus, an island which contains a treasure that none but the king of kings ought to possess. This is how much he loved this drink. Imagine being in a night out with mates in a vodka revolutions,

and you're going, these mojitos are so expensive, but I do love them. What we need to do is take over this vodka revolutions that's the obvious answer we need to get loads more mates down and capture it actually i think it's actually the story of what's about to happen is similar to if you were to try to kind of take over a vodka revolutions on a night out because eventually the stock would run out and the people who run vodka revolutions would stop helping right yeah so they want to take over cyprus obviously that means war with the venetians in 1571 the ottomans invaded cyprus which included a force of as many as 400 ships and 100 000 men wow and they quickly subdued the Venetian forces stationed there. So the Ottomans control Cyprus, but it's a Pyrrhic victory. The wine trade on the island declined sharply during the period of Ottoman rule,

which lasted until the island was taken over by the British in the late 19th century. And the first modern vineyard in Cyprus was not established until 1844. So why did the Ottomans destroy the kind of Ireland's wine industry? One theory is that they introduced really high levels of taxation. Taxation to pay for the upkeep of the military and naval forces that are now on the island, which led to the kind of invasion and the empire's military and naval forces elsewhere. The taxes were so high to maintain this massive kind of defence programme, effectively. So what happened in the wake of the successful evasion

is that the Ottoman Navy retired to its winter station in Lepanto in Greece, where it was attacked and destroyed by a European coalition whose aim was to ultimately recapture Cyprus and extend European influence over the Mediterranean. And this action forced Salem to spend large sums of money replacing lost ships and replacing the tens of thousands of soldiers who drowned in the sea and investing in a technologically advanced fleet which could repel the would-be invaders should they try again.

Wow. You know the phrase, too much money, not enough sense? But it just seems so relevant to this story, doesn't it? There's a drink he likes and he's loaded and he's got an army. There must be loads of historical parallels and similar cases to this,

I reckon, of people coming in and ruining a thriving local industry by just not knowing how to run it properly. That's a colonial trope, isn't it, that's happened all over the world. But when you throw in, like,

Selim's decision-making must have been affected by the fact he was pissed on this drink he loved so much, so much of the time. One of the things about alcohol is you don't really think about the consequences of your actions. Selim was pissed. The drunkard. But there must have been an initial two or three years

where they were just getting through the dusty bottles that were sort of kept in the wine cellar. Like a really good two or three years. Oh, I can't believe this is a vintage. The first year, they're absolutely loving it. Exactly, yeah. They're like, the wine is just flowing freely. Yeah.

Sure enough, the money and the overexertion and the replacement of the fleet that was destroyed by the Europeans took six months. It did enable the Ottomans to hold on to Cyprus and in 1573 to strike a deal with the Venetians for peace and the resumption of trade but the long-term cost was high the empire stopped expanding this thing this invasion of Cyprus and the consequences basically ended the expansion of the Ottoman Empire and with it ended the golden

age of the Ottomans as well wow so you're probably going to want to know how did Salim fare? What happened to him after this point? December 1574, he slips and falls at a bathhouse at the royal palace and cracks open his skull while drunk. And he dies of his injury soon after, aged 50. The Ottoman Empire never recovered from his eight years of mismanagement. The Ottoman Empire never recovered from his eight years of mismanagement. A period of turbulence and war launched by one man's need for delicious hard liquor. Bloody hell.

Wow. What was his nickname again? Yeah. It was... Selim II, a.k.a. Selim the Drunkard. I think he's quite... Selim the Salt. He's quite lucky to get away with the drunkard if he was basically solely responsible yeah for the collapse of an empire like selling the fuck up exactly it could have been so much harsher than

that if what they're focusing on is the fact that you like to drink rather than the fact you're you brought down one of the most successful empires of all time that's incredible wow love the drink so much yeah mad isn't it i want you to know that i was uh at one point at that working on a pun around the idea of venetian blind drunk but i couldn't make it work but i want you to know that i tried to sneak it in there and couldn't find an opportunity and i'm glad i didn't because it wasn't strong enough hello what a what a time.com.com if you can finish it off you've got Tom's giving you the assist

can you put it in the back of the net exactly okay guys that's the end of part one. Thank you for joining us. In part two, I'm going to be talking to you about Powder Monkey. It's a genuinely hellish job during the Battle of Trafalgar.

Ellis is going to be talking to us about female samurais in Japan who are making us feel just rather lame. Pathetic. Pathetic. And as a bonus part, Chris is going to be talking about the history of the tommy at war uh now chris if people want to get all this stuff straight away now how do they do that you can support the show and you can get an extra part in every episode you can get episodes in one lovely big piece a week earlier than everybody else ad free a bonus episode every

month and there are bonus episodes in our back catalogue you can listen to now and you get pre-sale for any live shows if you want to subscribe to the show go to

owhattime.com it's £4.99 a month you can listen via anotherslice.com forward slash owhattime or also on your Apple podcast app

and also on Spotify but for all the options go to owhattime.com but if you just want to listen we'll be back tomorrow for part two we'll see you then thanks guys

bye bye goodbye Thank you.