Oh What A Time... - #33 Conflict (Part 2)

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed from yesterday! This week we're looking at partakers in conflict from down the ages. The awful job of 'powder monkeys' during naval battles, female warriors of pre-modern Japan and then there's Selim II; the Sultan of the Ottoman empire who earned the interesting nickname 'the drunkard'. Plus our bonus bit for the OWAT: Full Timers this week - Tommy Atkins!.. the personification of the Great British soldier during the First World War. Also, there's lots to get in touch with this week: anyone gone lips to teat? Have you a cooler relative than the one featured in our correspondence? Can you tell us about a job worse than being a powder monkey? Do let us know: [e-mail] If you want both parts in one lovely go next time and a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 to support the show, you'll get: - the 4th part of every episode and ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - a bonus episode every month - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening! We’ll see you next week! BYE! Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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subscribe to OhWhatATime.com and become an Oh What A Time full-timer. So I'm going to talk to you about, I think, one of the worst jobs I could possibly imagine having to carry out during a war. And to do that, I'm going to take you back to the early 19th century, to the golden age of sail, when legendary admirals such as Horatio Nelson ruled the high seas. So this actually briefly made me think of something we need to add to the one-day time machine. In case you want to go back and visit one of these great naval battles, it has to be able to float. You can't just drop into the ocean and then sink. So I'm thinking maybe like a large rubber ring around the one-day time machine. What do you think? What's the idea?

Yeah. Those little sort of like flat things that water planes land on. You know, those things like they're sort of like... You'd need an engine. You don't just want to be a sitting duck in the middle of the Atlantic. Because people are firing cannons at you. Cannons. Grape shot.

You don't want to be sat there in like a dinghy. A time-travelling dinghy. Also, I think they're just going to shoot at you to see what you do it. I think that's it, yeah. Because they're both going to think that you are some kind of weaponry on behalf of the other side. So all cannons are going to be trained on you. So we're dropping plop down into the ocean, early 19th century,

Battle of Trafalgar, that sort of time. Because in this age, in this age of cannons and blast and all that sort of power, there was a job that really, I can't describe how horrific it sounds. Now, there's a major problem with cannons. This is where this job comes in. Do you want to guess what the major problem is with cannons and firing them repeatedly what is the major issue with this as a type of weapon oh isn't doesn't there like the the gunpowder clogs up in the cannon well yeah that's pretty close it's basically the fact that you constantly have to replenish the gunpowder yeah but the gunpowder can't obviously be near the cannon because that would be a silly thing to do if you were to be hit by a rival cannon at that point.

Which brought with it the problem that when you're fighting, how do you ferry gunpowder from the storage barrels elsewhere on the ship to the broadside cannons during battle? Especially because all the men on board were needed for fighting. So there was an obvious answer to this issue. Would you want to guess what they come up with? What was the answer to this issue? I reckon it's going to involve children or something. Something very cruel. It's an absolutely classic historical answer.

We'll just use children to carry out this incredibly dangerous job. Something we wouldn't stand up in, according to today's sensibilities. Which basically is the go-to in history, isn't it? Normally when there's some horrible job, it's all right, we'll just get the kids to do it. Here's some stats. In 1805 at the Brattle of Trafalgar,

Lord Nelson's flagship vessel, which is the HMS Victory, had a crew of 837 people. Of them, 146 were Marines, 154 were officers and specialists including surgeons and the rest were ordinary sailors whose ages ranged from 11 or 12 up to the age of 70 okay so across the ships that fought at this particular battle the the Battle of Trafalgar, there were more than 50 12-year-olds and 113-year-olds fighting. And the HMS Victory alone had 31 12-year-olds on board. Now, what were you like age 12? Not a victory, in my opinion.

What were you like age 12? How do you think you'd be dealing with a naval battle at the age of 12? So scutty, scared of everything, a terrible inability to focus, an inability to follow basic instructions, and an obsession with football stickers that bordered on mental illness. Well, I'm just thinking, in all honesty, at the age of 12, I was in scouts at 12. You know, you're learning to pick up a temp and there's a sense of adventure there.

But I think that it's born out of naivety. That I imagine you might go off to war and find it quite exciting until the moment the cannonballs start flying around you. Okay. Well, it's funny you mentioned scouts. This is why I wouldn't be suited. I was in scouts until I was age 11 when one of the bigger boys threw me into a mulberry bush and I was removed

from scouts after that because I was not willing to go back were you removed from the mulberry bush before you were removed from scouts or did they sack you

from scouts first or did they they didn't sack me from scouts for being chucked into a mulberry bush I think that would be quite an unfair that's punishing the victim there Scouts for being chucked into a mulberry bush. I think that would be quite unfair. That's punishing the victim there.

No, I was chucked into a mulberry bush and then my mum removed me from Scouts. Right, okay. But I was still a pretty cool kid. Don't worry about it. Don't want to paint the idea of me being someone. So there was a time when you were in the mulberry bush and still an active Scout. Yeah, there was. Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm pretty sure when I was in the mulberry bush, I thought, this is really painful, but this is my get out. This is how I get out of scout. So it's not all bad. So the boys were selected for particular skills. And Elle, actually, I think you'd have been suited to this. Were you quite small as a child, I'm guessing? Was that your...

Yeah. So they were chosen for their small stature. They really wanted smaller children and ones who were quick, maneuverable, and able to squeeze into really constricted parts of the vessel. And the job was unbelievably dangerous. The duty being, as I say, to carry gunpowder from the magazine hold on the ship to the cannons and the swivel guns in the midst of battle. For reasons of safety, gunpowder charges were never stored, as I say, with the guns. They were kept in safe copper-lined

rooms beneath the waterline. And a new charge was only issued once the previous charge had been fired. Because obviously, one of the main risks when carrying the powder was that a single spark could ignite them. And often this happened. so if a cannon hit them and it caused a spark the person holding the child holding the um the munition at the point would just be blown to smithereens this is one of the major risks of the job i imagine i imagine like the major risk of the job that is the most horrific dangerous job i've ever heard the major risk is you'll be blown to tiny one centimeter cubed pieces. That's the risk. What's bad, though?

I studied a lot about the Industrial Revolution at university. Children working in coal mines and things. I mean, that is horrific enough. But this is worse. This has got to be the most dangerous job of the time. Also, you're at sea which for me just adds an extra dimension of awfulness

absolutely I went on there's a reconstructed vessel called the Matthew in the harbour in Bristol which I went on a month ago it's actually an older vessel but it's still similar in build and going up and down those narrow steps it's so difficult, it's so tight and it's so steep all the step just moving around these ships would

have been impossible let alone when you're as you say in the midst of battle and holding something that could blow you up so one of those who had been a powder monkey and survived to tell the tale was a former slave an abolitionist writer called Aladair Equiano. And he was on board a Royal Navy ship during the Battle of Lagos in 1759, which is during the Seven Years' War against France. And he wrote about this experience. This is what he wrote. He said, I was quartered with another boy to bring powder to the aftermost gun.

And here I was witness to the dreadful fate of many of my companions, who in the twinkling of an eye were dashed to pieces and launched into eternity he added i escaped unhurt though the shot and splinters flew thick around me during the whole fight we were also very exposed to the enemy's shot for we had to go through nearly the whole length of the ship to bring the powder i expected therefore this is horrendous i expected therefore every minute to be my last. Just the horror of a job where you are, you believe on a deep and profound level that at any moment that could be it for you. Yeah.

Do you know what as well is, I think the extra thing that really brings the horror of this time to the forefront is when you think, I can see them in my mind's eye from like master and commander and films like that the surgeons and you know like when people got limbs blown off they're just tying a belt on a tourniquet and just cracking the sword out and going right you know it's it's so barbaric the intervention if you do get injured if you survive this is the thing that just i just don't think I could be at sea in this time.

This has got me into the worst time of conflict. It's horrendous, isn't it? Do you think you would carry the gunpowder out at arm's length with your arms stretched? Because I have been thinking about that. So if he does get hit, at least just the hands go. Because I still... I think you're gripping the whole thing because you're like, just don't mortally wound me. That's going to leave me in pain for 18 hours, you know. I think I'm gripping the whole thing because you're like, just don't mortally wound me.

It's going to leave me in pain for 18 hours, you know. I think I'm arm's length. Claire still takes the piss out of me because when I walk around the house with a pair of scissors, I still hold them out at full arm length away from my body. Well. As I did when I was a child. Before taking my daughter to drama last week, I was in the shower

and I opened the shower gel and it sprayed straight onto my eye. So obviously I wasn't expecting it. Because I just wasn't expecting it. I thought your eye was looking particularly clean though. I couldn't open my eye for about an hour.

It was quite very it was sore for two days. Now, and I will do this for the rest of my life, I open shower gel like I'm diffusing a bomb. I will never not do that. Because I haven't got the time to lose another hour to a shower gel-based incident. And so, yeah, I think I'd be arm's length as well. to a shower gel based incident and so

yeah I think I'd be arm's length as well my life isn't flashy but on the rare occasion I open a bottle of champagne the absolute panic on my face just sheer terror that for some reason it's going to deflect off something and I'm going to lose sight of

one eye Christmas day you're in the garden you kill a robin reason it's going to deflect off something and I'm going to lose sight of one eye. But I've just, I hate it. Yeah, Christmas day. And also I'm not... You're in the garden. You kill a robin. It's an anecdote for the street. What a way to go. So this was, this wasn't even the worst of it.

I mean, the worst part really was the fact that despite the horror of this job, these boys had literally no rank on the ship. They were very much at the bottom of the ladder. That's the thing that I just find so staggering. Yeah, absolutely. You think that they should get all of the privileges that the ship can afford them? Well, a lot of them were recruited by the Marine Society,

which is an organisation which promised their poor working-class parents that a life at sea would bring security and sort of a rudimentary education most shockingly this is unbelievable they weren't even paid they were simply given simply given a bed some clothes and the promise of some schooling so very poor families would go well this is a better lot we have no clothing we have no bed for them we can't support them this is a better lot better lot for them i mean equally heartbreaking as a parent as well that it's the horror of being a child but also as a parent going well this is their best chance to send them into war to send them into battle i mean it's just staggering that what the choices

people had to make um and to be fair, they did sometimes, not always, but they did sometimes gain that rudimentary education. Often, this is hilarious, there was a teacher on board, which I think is the worst job in teaching, isn't it, really? Like people talk about sort of working in tough secondary schools and stuff, but trying to do arithmetic during the Battle of Trafalgar at sea. Yeah. With the kids justifyingly saying, I don't really care, sir.

I've got other stuff on my mind. Exactly. You're doing the register in front of like a hollowed out ship going, oh, there's quite a few missing today. Yeah. And when the ships were not in battle, I'll end with this, when the ships were not in battle, this didn't even mean rest for the children. They were required to act as the chef's mate,

running around the kitchen in the galley and making meals for the rest of the crew. The standard of meals I'd have been cooking for a crew age 12 at sea. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure I'm the guy for that. Yeah, exactly. Beans on toast. Right then, lads. It's Weetabix.

My home ec exam when I was 14, I did beans on toast. But worse than that, I put beans on bread and I microwaved the whole lot. I didn't even toast the bread. And my home ec teacher only passed me. This is not not a lie only passed me because she hadn't had breakfast so she ate it god bless you mrs johnson even for me that's a low isn't it another? Another boy failed his exam because he'd made a homemade pizza and then they noticed the words McCain on the bottom of the base. So it could have been worse.

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No, I'd love to. I'd love to go. I've never been, but I'd absolutely love to. So neither of you, okay. I've not been either. And it fascinates me because I think it's this, as someone who hasn't been, the image you're sold of Japan is this kind of combination of hyper-modern, you know, when you think of downtown Tokyo, and also very traditional. Now, normally, when we imagine a samurai, we think of the samurai movies of the 50s and 60s, you know, those tough, honourable, deadly in the right circumstances you know good looking people usually played by

very good looking actors and I think the samurai they were the hereditary military nobility they were the officer cast of medieval and early modern Japan from the late 12th century

until their abolition get this in the late 1870s carried on for far longer than I'd realised so they had high prestige and they had very special privileges. For instance, there was a passing of a law in 1629, which meant that samurai in official duty were required to practice daisho,

wear two swords. And they were granted, and forgive me for my terrible pronunciation because I don't speak Japanese, kirisute gomen, which is the right to kill anyone of a lower class in certain situations. Whoa! Imagine having that. Licence to kill. Licence to kill as long as they sort of... Proto James Bond. Yeah.

Yeah, as long as they sort of... That wouldn't be quite as catchy a movie title, would it? Licence to kill, open brackets, people of a lower social order, close brackets. Yes. With a picture of James Bond on the poster. I might leave that one. Licence to kill, open brackets, people of a lower social order, close brackets, with a picture of James Bond on the poster. I might leave that one. Yeah, licence to kill.

Anyone who's got a degree from a worse university than the one I went to. By the way, very briefly, you might not know this, but I did fencing for six months when I was a child. So I see a lot of myself in the samurai of Japan. There's a sort of overlap between them. How good were you at fencing? Was this because of the mulberry bush? So I could chop back any mulberry bush I came to

and sort of take off the thorns. I progressed from foil to whichever the sword is after that. I've forgotten what that was called. It was a bendy sword after that. But I did foil, which is the basic one. You got as far as bendy sword? I got was a bendy sword after that. But I did foil, which is the basic one. You got as far as bendy sword? I got to the bendy sword, yeah. Well, in pre-modern Japan, though,

women as well as men took up the sword and became warriors, thus becoming part of a warrior class known as the bushi. Now, the onomusho, female warrior, was tasked with fighting in feudal wars and protecting house souls. And their story is a big part of the ancient story of Japan. Now, amongst the most famous female warriors in Japanese history was Tomo Gozen, who was a semi-legendary fighter who parted in the Genpei Wars of the late 12th century.

Now, there's lots of images of her, and they show her in the full Japanese armour. She's got long hair, bow at the back, often on a horse. And, like, war-wise, she's got long hair bow at the back often on a horse and like war wise she's in the mixer she's right in the thick of the action and she it's said that she would command hundreds of male samurai in battle leading them in the fighting that's so cool which is you know there are examples of uh female warriors in other cultures in history, but I always think their story gets written out of history a little bit. Now, there's lots of epic tales of her feats, and they describe her as things like she was especially beautiful,

she was a remarkably strong archer, she was a swordswoman, she was a warrior worth a thousand men. I mean, to use a football comparison, the XG on that is incredible, isn't it? If you're worth a thousand men, wow. So she was equipped with strong armour, an oversized sword and a mighty bow. Now she inspired subsequent generations of Onimusha, those whose existence is more easily documented, although the documentation does remain scarce. And these later soldiers, say the 16th century Muscatio Teppo units, they were a bit more ordinary, though often still led by women from the household of the daimo, or lord. Now one of these warrior women who rose to

the top was Tachibana Eginshio. She lived from 1569 to 1602. So obviously if you do the math, she died very young. Now her father, Tachibana Dosetsu, had been a formidable samurai himself and passed on his skills. Wow. So his sword, or the raikiri, or the lightning cutter, because he had no... There was an absence of sons,

so he had no sons, so his position was... He handed on his position as daimō to his daughter. That's interesting, the idea of a parent sort of providing your child with skills which you know are going to lead to them living quite a dangerous life. Whereas I naturally want to protect my children. So let's say, as I say, I did fencing, so it's not that much of a leap, but let's say I was a trained killer. I'd probably still not push my children in that direction.

I'd go, I'd want something else. It's weird. I remember watching this Chris Eubunk documentary with his son, Chris Eubunk Jr., who would have been a teenager at the time, saying, I'd love to box, Dad, and him saying, I don't want you to. Really? Interesting. And obviously he went on to be a very famous professional boxer.

It's a weird one. Also, when I think of Japan around the 1500s, 1600s, and specifically samurai, in a weird way, I find it much more modern than when I think of England in the 1600s. I know exactly what you mean, yeah. I think of ninja stars and, I don't know, abseiling down a building and crashing into it

and snapping someone's neck. Yeah, I think you've got to do with that. That is not happening in the court of Henry VIII, from what I know. Now, Ginsho made sure that all the women of her household were trained in martial arts, whether they were the lowliest maidservants or the formal palace guard.

Men were not to be trusted. This was true even of the man she married, Tachibana Meneshegi, whom her father had adopted into the family. So when her castle was attacked by a rival clan, it was the women who formed the defence, taking up firearms, more traditional weaponry to repel the assault. Ginsho was to be found battling it out at the front gates. Now, eventually, after a fallout with her husband, Ginsho became a Buddhist nun, but

she never forgot her martial training. So when the convent she was living in was attacked by rivals, it was she who led the resident nuns as an armed brigade. No way. And this earned her the nickname of the warrior nun. That's so cool. Now, the best sources we have for the Onomusha, who rarely appear in written records,

unless they're of noble birth or origin, are the paintings. And these reveal a contemporary image of the Onomusha, one that lingers in Japan still today. So if you take, for example, there was a very influential artist called Okamura. Masanobu was going in the early 18th century. And there's a painting called Lady Samurai Visiting Poet.

And in the painting, we see a reclining poet in the background with mountains providing the landscape to the rear. And then in the foreground, two figures, the Lady Samurai and her maidservant. The Lady Samurai is dressed in these fine fine clothes richly colored with exquisite patterning and she could be any lady visiting a poet were it not for the swords that she carries and the deliberate manner of their attachment at the back so that reveals her to be a samurai yeah but in other paintings there are groups of warry women, and these give us the faces

of those whose names we don't have. So there's a real legend applied to them. You have things like Taiso Yoshitoshi's Subjugation of Kagoshima and Sashu Tsuma, painted in the second half of the 19th century. In 1877, I think, it shows a group of Onomush in the midst of fighting, and they're using a naginata, which is a bladed fighting pole in combat we can see them wearing traditional brightly colored dress their hair is tied back using head scarf meanwhile their opponents were all men are cast in western style military uniforms and they're fighting using cavalry sabers interesting so this contrast reveals why the onomusha why it continues to fascinate because it says something about the old japan yes you know the japan of the clans and of the samurai and the japan that existed

before the arrival of europeans and obviously then the long march that japan went on in to modernity it's really interesting i think it still has quite a hold on japanese culture that is absolutely fascinating i love that idea of the whole household being trained killers. Yes. Like, if my daughter made, like, friends, and you went round there, and it came out that they were all trained killers. Well, it'd be fantastic if we had burglars. Can you imagine that?

You've chosen the wrong house. Yeah, you're like, all right then, mate. If you don't get me, my daughter's a train killer, Izzy's a train killer, and my son, he's only five, but I'm training him to be a killer as well. So bring it on. Try and take the fucking telly. That is so cool.

The burglar coming into your house with a torchlight, looking at the family photos in there, you're all dressed as samurais thinking, oh, shit. LAUGHTER all dressed as samurais thinking oh shit well that's it for this week and it's been an informative and entertaining

show especially with regards to the insides of Cadbury's cream eggs absolutely but also Lady Samurais and Powder Monkeys and Sel sell him the drunkard we hope you've

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