Oh What A Time... - #37 Prime Ministers (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed from yesterday! This week on the show we’re taking a trip to 10 Downing Street to analyse Prime Ministers from yonder. We’ll be taking a look at Lloyd George, Margaret Thatcher, Ramsey MacDonald and the full timers will this week get their bonus 4th part on Robert Walpole (who was not, I repeat NOT, the world’s tallest man). On that note, is it possible to look 22 years old when you’re nearly 9ft? And Elis’ mum would regularly walk two miles to school when she was 4 years old; do you know anyone who can beat that record? To touch on this or anything else, you can get in touch with the show via [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - the 4th part of every episode and ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - a bonus episode every month - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). We'll see you next week! Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.yorku.ca. Hello and welcome to part two. Part one was yesterday. Do check it out on your feed. But if not, if you've joined us this far, let's carry on. This is Prime Ministers. So I'm going to talk to you about Ramsey MacDonald, who is, it's quite an impressive claim to fame, the poorest man ever to become Prime Minister.

How do they judge that? How do they know that? When I tell you about his background, you'll see why. One of the three principal founders of the Labour Party and also Labour's first ever Prime Minister. Okay, so Ramsey Macdonald, he didn't take the usual route to politics. And I think it's fair to say, as we discussed earlier, and as per your question there, Chris, that most Prime Ministers do come from a place of privilege.

That is true of our country. Really, when you think back, most of them have come from at least upper middle class background, if not more kind of... Brown was state educated. Major was state educated. Tress was state educated. And as was Thatcher.

But, you know, in the main, you remember the state educated ones. Exactly. Absolutely. But Macdonald, this just wasn't his background. He was born in 1866 in the far north of Scotland in a small fishing village called Lossiemouth, which is east of Inverness, to an unmarried maid servant. And he ended his elementary education at the age of 12. So you're getting the idea of the sort of background he has. So it is very different.

But he continued at school for another six years, working as something called a pupil teacher. Now, do you know what a pupil teacher is? Because this completely blew my mind when I looked into this. Have you heard of this? It's not someone in the class who's also the teacher. Yeah, it's crazy. So a pupil teacher, okay, was a training program

which was in wide use before the 20th century as an apprentice system for teachers. So with the emergence of mass education at the beginning of the 19th century, it became clear, basically, that there weren't enough teachers so what they did was when a pupil hit the age of 13 and was suitable they'd be plucked out and then they'd serve their apprentice as a teacher for the rest of school so whilst also completing their education now i want you to take a second to think about what secondary school would have been like ages 13 to 17 if you were also a teacher. If I'd been one of the teachers at secondary school, it would have turned me into a fucking wanker.

Forever. I would be such a wanker. It would be like, it would run through me like a stick of rock. Give us an example. So you're coming out to the class, okay? You're 13 or 14. Settle down! What I'd love to know is like, are you going in the staff room?

That's a good point. Are your mates the teachers? Oh, yeah, yeah. You look like smoked fags in the staff room alright sir these kids are annoying aren't they

yeah yeah that's a good point bears a signal for me and not for you is that what you'd be like do you think you'd be using

your power to give out detention are you that are you that 13 year old teacher you chewing gum boy I think Ellis give you a counter argument to that detention, are you that 13-year-old teacher? You chewing gum boy.

I think, Ellis, to give you a counter-argument to that, that I think your life would actually be in a living hell. If you are a 13-year-old teacher, I think the bullies are going to... Any opportunity to pull your trousers down at the front of class when you're giving a lesson, anything like that would happen. Because they'd know really you don't have any power because your mum still drops you off at school if we handed out detentions could you hand out detentions well the detail wasn't was served up in the thing i read about that but i do know you had to you had to teach a class from the age of 13 onwards wow and that is

what he did okay so what a pyrrhic victory detention would be after having had your bloody trousers pulled down during the lesson by the bigger boys. Yeah, well, you won't be laughing when you're in detention for an hour after school, eh? Eh? They'll bloody teach you. Elle, you would give out detention to all the tough kids

and you'd have your little victory and then it would get to five o'clock and it would just be you and the tough kids and you're having to take detention and all the other big teachers and the proper teachers have gone home it's a nightmare and they're licking their lips exactly and you know that your trousers are due another yanking so guys even though i'm a teacher i'm actually pretty cool huh what do you do in play times you don't want to hang out with the teachers can i give you what i think it would be i think you get caught in a no man's land friendship yeah i think the teachers don't want to hang without with you the school kids don't want to hang out with you you have to hang out at best

with the other apprentice teachers yeah your only chance so there's six other dorks god it's like it's like being in a prison yard isn't it like who you who your alliances exactly don't don't fraternize with the guards you say earlier what does that mean to him being the poorest prime minister this is hopefully giving you some idea to the life you had this he had came from a really tough background and the only way he continued schooling was was in this way and following this as a young adult he then moved to bristol and then london he initially did menial jobs before becoming a journalist. And it was during that time that he acquainted himself with left-wing ideas, before in 1894, joining the newly founded Independent Labour Party, as it was known then.

And from there, he rose quickly. By just 1900, he became the first secretary of the Labour Representation Committee, or the LRC, which is basically the true predecessor to the Labour Party that we have today. And in 1906, he was one of 29 LRC members to win election to the Commons, which is the point when the LRC transformed into the Labour Party that we have today. So he's one of three founding members, essentially, of the Labour Party. And after five years, he then succeeded Keir Hardie as the parliamentary leader of the Labour Party and after five years he then succeeded Keir Hardie as the parliamentary leader of the Labour Party now interestingly and this I thought this is kind

of really fascinating one of the main reasons that his rise was so quick at that time was because of his presence he was tall he was handsome and he was charismatic and this was at a time when that mattered more than ever do you want to guess why that really mattered at that point in a way that it just hadn't really mattered before? The dawn of printed pictures. No, not quite. Actually, but in that area, in that area. Radio.

Once again, in that area, but not quite. Television? Or Pathé News? Yes, exactly. Really? Cinema newsreels and party political bulletins were being developed at this time. So how you looked and how the general public saw you

really did start to matter. It's kind of interesting how before that wouldn't have had such an impact, but being this sort of handsome, screen-ready person really kind of had an impact, especially in terms of the cinema newsreels I can tell you just one little story that happened it's reminded me of politicians being on telly

and looking right for the job and how much that matters when I lived in Cardiff and I worked for BBC Wales there was a political programme on there and Roderick Morgan who was the first minister when would that have been Ellis? when was Roder morgan the first he was the second one i would say mid 2000s early to mid 2000s early to mid 2000s so he was coming down to film an interview on this live tv program

he was a certain age rodrey morgan and he managed to go to the wrong makeup room prior to the broadcast. Now, people might not know this, but Doctor Who, a lot of Doctor Who is filmed in

Cardiff, in Wales, and he'd gone to the Doctor Who makeup room and he fell asleep in the chair and when he woke up,

we didn't know where he was. This is not true. It is true. Is this true? People didn't know where Roderick Morgan was and when he

woke up, he was halfway towards being turned into a talking tree. That is unbelievable. That is one of the best stories I've ever heard. How long have you been set on that? That's incredible, isn't it? That's an incredible story.

Yeah. And they had to sort of very quickly wipe it all off and sort of get him out in front of the camera yeah oh my god I just stuck with it

for me I think if anything's going to warm you to the people go out dressed as a half talking tree and go you'll never guess what's just happened because surely people

would like that who could turn against that it'd be such an endearing thing to do never fall asleep in a makeup chair like that. Who could turn against that? It'd be such an endearing thing to do. Never fall asleep in a makeup chair, like. That's your first mistake. Yeah, it's like falling asleep on a stag, isn't it? It's amazing he didn't wake up with a bloody shaved eyebrow.

Yeah, a shaved eyebrow and a penis drawn onto his forehead. Also, how have they got half a talking tree onto his head without him waking up? Well, he's a busy man he was of a certain age so i mean you know you've got to steal sleep when you can oh it's a quite a gamble not to check yep it is yeah yeah so mcdonald as i say handsome man good on screen and very quickly rising up the ranks so much so that eventually in 1924 mcdonald became prime minister and although his first reign

only lasted nine months he then returned again between 1929 and 1931 and then for a final and third time between 1931 and his retirement in 1935 and it was that final period of 1931 to 35 that proved to be his most controversial and left him with to be honest quite an unwanted legacy so he came to power just as the depression was taking hold and the effects of the wall street crash and huge industrial downturn was really starting to be felt and that's something i've thought about the idea of coming into power after working for something like that and then coming in at a point of absolute turmoil what that must feel like it reminds me a bit of like really boris with a pandemic this thing that he'd desperately wanted and then suddenly you're just in this absolute shit storm what that feels

like well he had two didn't he he was britain's exit from the european union yes of course yeah yes that's right oh Of course, of course. It's like, you know, Tony Blair, when he'd imagined being Prime Minister, he hadn't imagined, I'm assuming, 9-11

and war in Iraq and war in Afghanistan. Death of Princess Diana within. Death of Princess Diana and, I mean, all sorts of things. Do you think you're thinking

as that's happening, I'm really not enjoying this anymore? I just, on some level, you're quite keen for it to be over. I wonder to what extent you expect that.

Because I always think when a new prime minister, a new president, sorry, is sworn in in America, I always think, I wonder what crises they will have to deal with. Yes, I always think this.

I was listening to a podcast with Alistair Campbell on it. And I think he said something like, you know, when you're PM, no one runs in with a sheet of paper, you know, hurries in and going, oh, I've got some really good news. It's just crisis management. It's crisis to crisis. Some are big and some are small in the grand scheme of things.

Yes. I was fascinated by Andrew Ronsley has written these really interesting books on sort of new Labour's time in government like 97 to 2010 and when you read the first one which I think is called Servants of the People the crises are quite small

in comparison to the second one End of the Party like things like Blair being booed by the WA do you remember that? That felt like a big thing

yeah yeah slow hand clap first item on the news yep couple of years later wouldn't have even scratched the side well Blair's been booed

by the WI it's sort of amazing and like Robin Cook's affair was a big deal and yet a few years later obviously when when you think of things like 9-11 especially

it's just a much bigger deal yeah where do you think in the scale of crisis management does Mr Morgan I'm afraid someone's made you up as a talking tree

would sit where do you think on the scale of 1 to 10 if 9, 11 to 10 where's that sitting well Trump Bush he was told

he was at a primary school wasn't he one of the most incredible things you'll ever see so he's watching like a primary school play or production he's reading to a primary school, wasn't he? One of the most incredible things you'll ever see. So he's watching a primary school play or production. He's reading to a primary school. They're reading to a primary school.

That was it. And then someone comes over and whispers to him that the Twin Towers have been attacked. And he just carries on reading. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're not waking up expecting that, are you? Do you think that kind of, the advisor whispering in the ear

that happened on the set of the BBC Cardiff, I'm afraid we've done him up like a talking pig. The one thing we didn't want to happen. Then Andrew Marr, whoever it is, just sat there thinking. Right. Yeah. What I would do if I was Roderick Morgan,

I'd go on And I'd immediately start Talking about the environment So it felt like It was on purpose Well that is good I've come here today Half dressed like a talking tree Because frankly

I am sick of our green spaces Yeah Being over And then when he yells out Green faces more like Because for me That is the profound Most pressing challenge

Of the 21st century The environment And I did not fall asleep on this set of Doctor Who yeah and the other side of my face is just me as an old man

because I'd also like to talk to you about issues relating to the elderly and people go this is very good and he turns his face depending on what subject he's talking about

like that guy in Batman anyway let's get back to our friend. Like that guy in Batman. His name's Two-Face. There's not that much of a stretch to figure out. Like that guy with two faces on Batman. I mean, the fact that I said that Iron Man was the best superhero. Like that guy who's always telling jokes.

The guy who's always telling jokes in Batman. I know nothing about this guy. I know absolutely nothing about these things. Okay. Luckily, though, I know a lot about history. I remember Christine Gwyther, who was the Agriculture Secretary in what was then known as the Welsh Assembly, under Roderick Morgan, who was the First Secretary.

Because she was Agriculture Secretary, some farmers, he was at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show or something, to protest or to draw attention to the falling price of sheep or lamb. They gave her a lamb. What? And said, there you go. That's yours now. Because it's only worth 50 pence or something.

What are you going to do about it? Brilliant. And she said, no, no, thanks. It's yours. I don't want it. It's worthless to me. And I remember she made a, it was on the news, she made a very weak excuse saying something like,

well, I'm staying at a B&B and they've got a no pets policy. Yeah. Well, I don't want it. That's really clever, to be fair. But I remember thinking she just would not have planned for this. Yeah. When she woke up, she'd have been briefed and she'd have read her papers and she'd have thought,

okay, well, I'm going to be asked about this, this and thised and she'd have read her papers and she'd have thought okay well I'm going to be asked about this this and this and she'd have had her answers ready that kind of stunt it's so difficult I guarantee you though in the run up to Easter she'd have kept it if there were like three days before Easter Sunday yeah thanks for that

it sounds like you're making a pun but it's like you can't respond to that on the hoof. It's very difficult to respond properly to those kind of stunts. Or it might have been a calf. She was given a lamb or a calf or something.

And it was just really embarrassing. So, as I say, Macdonald came into power just as oppression was taking effect. And if that wasn't enough, as the say, Macdonald came into power just as the Depression was sort of taking effect. And if that wasn't enough, as the leader of a minority government, it was really difficult for him to manoeuvre. Basically, the whole thing was a nightmare and he couldn't really make change in the way that he hoped. Some of his Labour colleagues felt the Depression kind of offered an opportunity to implement wider socialist reforms, while others, including his Chancellor, Philip Snowden, wanted caution and need to balance the books. And basically, in the summer of 1931, this all came to a head,

and the cabinet essentially split. And with Macdonald seeing no way forward, he had to go to the King, King George V, to offer his resignation. He thought, this is what I'm going to do. We've reached an impasse. I can't progress. I'm just going to hand in my resignation. I'm going to leave. So he goes to see the king. However, he was offered quite an unexpected alternative at this point. And this is the crucial thing which marked his legacy. He was offered, and he wasn't expecting this, to stay on as prime minister as the head of a national government, which is a cabinet dominated by conservatives with only a few Labour members in it. So he was given this stark choice which was really to resign and risk

the destruction of the Labour Party at the inevitable general election that would come or to accept the King's offer knowing that it meant that he would be an outcast in the Labour Party to which he devoted his whole life. So what do you think you'd go for in that situation? Are you leaving so there's someone that represents your ideals still in government? Or are you staying with the party and essentially letting it collapse around you? What are you going for? It's a really tricky thing. I studied this for my A-levels.

Government of National Unity. Yeah. I mean, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Yeah. I mean, they sang songs about him for decades. Exactly, yeah. if you don't. Yeah. I mean, they sang songs about him for decades. Exactly. Yeah. People here,

he still, he was reviled for years and years and years for presiding over the government of national unity. But it was such

a tumultuous time. Well, as you say, that is the choice he made. He followed King's advice. He headed up this new national government and at the general election, the Labour Party

was nearly wiped out, shrinking from, this is mad, 287 seats down to 52. What a collapse that is. And in his new role, sure enough, Macdonald was despised by former Labour colleagues. And his former political opponents, who now surrounded him, also had no reason to trust him. And it was just a disaster. I really like the choice he made here. This did make me laugh but fact that basically he was aware that he had no longer had any control over the domestic agenda so instead just threw himself into loads of trips

to europe to deal with foreign affairs which 100 just feels like he's going okay i'm just getting out of westminster any issue abroad it's mine but that is literally what did. He's constantly going on transatlantic flights and flights to Europe to deal with anything abroad, just to get away from his colleagues. I love foreign travel. Yeah. This is the thing from reading, like, political biographies. Everyone loves to be in the foreign office. That is the number one gig, isn't it?

Yeah. Just going around, getting wined and dined. I could do that. Yeah, I could do that yeah i could do that i'd love to do that what you should be doing there is saying things like it's been far too long since we've had a trade deal with you know barbados or whatever just have we got a trade deal with magaluf i will need a minimum of fortnight there i'll need to be there for the fortnight Also Ibiza for the closing parties That's when all the deals are done I need to flex in

Like it's basically what he did We need trading deals with Benidorm Magaluf Ayia Napa Ibiza Tom all these trade deals Are a A beer to me

Clubbing hotspot What's our relationship with Vegas as well. I'm quite keen to strike up a deal with Vegas. But that is basically what he did. He kept flying abroad. He kept dealing with that. But before long, the accusations just started to build that he was too old, he was too frail, too forgetful.

You know, the press turned on him, despite the fact he was only 60 as well i think he's only only in his um in his late 60s rather he wasn't that old at all um and then eventually in january 1935 king george v died he was one of his few remaining supporters and it was also something that kind of shook mcdonald's so much that he caused so much self-reflection that within six months after the king's death he also resigned as prime minister and it's all quite sad really it's kind of horrible few years really of stress and whatever you think of him i i kind of think what's interesting here is that basically

had mcdonald's not sacrificed his friends and his career and his life by taking up the king's offer some suggest he'd kind of almost be thought of a hero now in the labor movement almost as someone who fell on his on his own sword at the most difficult moment that isn't the choice he made and instead by i suppose you could say by trying to do the right thing as he saw it he was basically forever being painted as the worst type of politician you mentioned these songs you the hatred, and it's just something that stayed for years. People loathe MacDonald, despite

how tricky this choice was. I just need to, a little correction, Welsh Agricultural Secretary Christian Gwyther refused the gift of two calves presented to her as a protest at low livestock prices when she was visiting the Pembrokeshire show.

What a ballick to be given two calves. I love that it's two as well. I really hope the first one was handed and she's like, what? No, I don't really want... And then at that point, the second one was handed. You need a little bit of a surprise rather than two at once. Don't worry, you've got a second calf, a boneless calf.

Because calves were selling for as little as a quid so these farmers were saying well we may as well just give them away oh wow incredibly awkward it's a fantastic piece of television it's a new day how can you make the most of it with your membership rewards points earn points on everyday purchases. Use them for that long-awaited vacation. You can earn points almost anywhere, and they never expire. Treat your friends or spoil your family. Earn them on your adventure and use them how you want, when you want.

That's the powerful backing of American Express. Learn more at amex.ca slash yamxtermsapply. Breaking news coming in from Bet365, where every nail-biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three-point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk-off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball whatever the moment it's never ordinary at bet 365 must be 19 or older ontario only please play responsibly if you or someone you know has concerns about gambling visit connects ontario.ca Right, let's talk about Lloyd George. Now, on the 26th of March, 1945, only a few weeks before the end of the Second World War, David Lloyd George, a man, of course, who led Britain to victory in the First World War,

died at home in North Wales, 82 years of age. He'd been living with cancer. A remarkable story in the history of British politics. yn Cymru, 82 mlynedd oed, roedd yn byw gyda cancer. Stori anhygoel yn y hanes gwleidyddiaeth Brif. Felly, roedd yn nabod yn y gymuned Cymreigian Cymru o Manchester yn 1863, gyda'r teulu yn ystod y cyfnod, a symud yn ôl i Gymru. Felly, yn gyntaf i Pembrokeshire, a yna, wedi marw ei fater, felly, fe wnaethon nhw symud i'r fath o Llanes Tymdwy, a oedd yn lle oedd ei mam wedi tyfu, ac roedd yn Cynharfon, hefyd, y which would have been where his mother had grown up. And it was in Carnarvon, also the Carnarvon area, that he came into the influence of his uncle, Richard,

who was a staunch liberal and a non-conformist pastor, which is quite a big thing because Welsh non-conformism, that was the sort of the church of common people in Wales at the time. Right. And the thing with Welsh non-conformists, they hated the Church of England. Okay. Which was the sort of the established state church because it had different laws, different customs. And obviously the sermons were in English rather than Welsh as well.

And it was called the Church of England, which was obviously quite a turn off. So his uncle was a shoemaker, but encouraged Lloyd George in the world of letters and oratory and law. So through his uncle Richard he learned these skills and it had a massive bearing on his public persona as a politician so you know there was a big difference in theology between the church in England and non-conformist Methodist churches in Wales so it was it basically turned him into a little bit of a rebel so he qualified as a solicitor in 1884 and he threw himself into liberal politics, worked on the 1885 general election campaign. And then he became an alderman on the Carnarvonshire County Council in 1889.

And then he was made the prospective parliamentary candidate that year for the Liberal Party in Carnarvon Burroughs. So he fought his first by-election in 1890 and he emerged victorious. So he's still a by-election in 1890, and he emerged victorious, right? So he's still a young man at this point. He won with a majority of just 18 votes. Wow. So up the count, Ellis Nanny was the Conservative candidate, was a very, very prominent landowner in the area,

was due to be declared the winner, and it was noticed, get this, the sum of Lloyd George's votes had been put in the wrong pile. Right. So they're like, hang on a second. And by coincidence, the packet of votes that were for Lloyd George were just enough to have him come out on top, right? So he held the Clare von Burra seat then until 1945. But you say by coincidence, so are there some doubters whether that was...

Yeah. Well, in the research, there's ellipses. So make of that what you will. Okay, right, yes. Now, as a Member of Parliament, he was active in Welsh Affairs. He pursued the causes that were beloved of the Liberal Party at the time. So it's home rule, friolans, disestablishment of the church in Wales, and the creation of individual institutions for Welsh education as well. I think he wanted home rule in Wales. Certainly he did at one point because he was a part of cumbria v which was a sort of it was like

a sort of proto-nationalist movement in this sort of in the at the end of the 1800s but he was he's always rising up the greasy polar politics okay so the liberals returned to office uh with a massive majority in 1906 after a long period of conservative dominance and it gave him his first taste of cabinet office so he was president of the board of trade and then from 1908 became chancellor of the exchequer now this is where he started to do some really significant things so he emerged as a kind of people's tribunes he introduced old age pensions which hadn't existed before he advocated for welfare reforms things like national national insurance, which hadn't existed before. He created a system of wealth redistribution, which added taxes for the rich to pay for welfare and for a national rearmament scheme. So then by 1915, once we're into the First World War,

he was made Minister for Munitions and then Secretary of State for War. And then he became Prime Minister in 1916. And he was there until You know, he had a lot of left-wing achievements when you look at things like national insurance and pensions. I don't think he... I think people forget that that was stuff that he introduced, right? So on the surface, he's a successful politician, so he's able to command loyalty. He pursued causes that sort of appealed directly

to the chapels of his youth. But behind the scenes, he was, how can I put it, a shagger. Really? Yeah, big time. I didn't know that about Lloyd George. Oh, big time, right? So he maintained a long affair with his secretary, Francis Stevenson, effectively living with two wives.

Whoa. So when Margaret Lloyd George's wife died in 1941, he married Francis to legitimise something that had previously been hidden and secret. Yeah. And even though he was having this affair with Stevenson, which was generally loving, it was torrid at times. Like, he produced several pregnancies,

at least three of which Lloyd George compelled to be aborted, which was an illegal act at the time. Wow. Lest they become public knowledge and then have his career ruined. Wow. So he had hands wandering all over the place. He had numerous affairs, sort of like affairs on his affair. He had one-night stands, including with the wives and partners

of fellow MPs, or those he met whilst on campaign. Yeah. And Stevenson, the person he was having an affair with, Frances Stevenson, she was engaged in an affair with an army officer who worked alongside her in the MP's office, a man called Thomas Tweed. So it's an absolute, in terms of personal relationships, a complete hornet's nest, right? Yeah. And he's got that thing that Einstein has where he's really kind of grown out the moustache,

but kind of looped it so that the length kind of comes back around, like he's got extra length in there. And with mad white hair as well. Yeah. Which presumably was popular. I don't know if women liked that then more than they would now. Evidently. Clearly. Either power or that moustache was an aphrodisiac, right?

But he was very recognisably modern, right? So in 1918, he was the subject of a biopic, probably the first made of any British politician, The Life Story of David Lloyd George. And it was widely trailed in the press before its anticipated release, but it was never shown in his lifetime. Because it was mired in scandal, right? And the filmmakers

were eventually paid £20,000, which is £940,000 in today's money. Wow. for the only print of the film. So there's an awful lot of scandal. So because he was so keen, he didn't want it to be released? Yeah. So even though he's the person who's regarded

as having won the First World War for Britain and he's introduced things like pensions and national insurance, there's so much scandal going on in the background. Yeah. What I find interesting there is it sort of it speaks to sometimes you meet these people who are concerned with the optics of being seen as someone who cares about people and you do see it in the media a lot as well to perfectly honest there's a lot about how you're viewed and like how empathetic you are to the plight of people. But actually, in your interpersonal relationships, you don't have much care.

An absolute casserole, yeah. Yeah. Do you know what? It's very true, to be honest, of television. That is definitely something I've encountered. Just say my name, Tom. Spit it out. And then you'll make us delete this bit.

But you know what I mean? There is a disconnect between this kind of broader idea of what you stand for and how you actually treat people around you. Now, get this right. So in 1918, he's still in office as PM. He founded a media company, United Newspapers, which bought two national publications, the Daily Chronicle and Lloyd's Weekly. And to raise the money, the purchase cost £1.6 million or 75 million quid in today's money. household peerages and other titles according to a scheme of his own invention. So it was £10,000 for a knighthood, £30,000 for a baronetcy, and then £50,000 for a peerage with greater amounts for higher titles.

So it was during his time in office that Britain had established a new order of merit. So you had the MB, the OB, CB, and then the KBE and the DBE. Yeah. So that obviously became tainted. So these honours weren't mentioned when the Cash for Honours scandal broke in 1922 but they were certainly added to the mix. So even though he hadn't invented Cash for Honours that practice had been going on for

decades because it basically provided an under the table route for the nouveau riche to acquire the status of a title. Even Gladstone amazingly sold titles in the early 1890s. But Lloyd George made it really brazenly formal. So he told the House of Commons, as to the question of bargain and sale, I agree with everything that has been said about that. If it ever existed, it was a discreditable system. It ought never to have existed. If it does exist,

it ought to be terminated. And if there were any doubt on that point, every step should be taken to deal with it. So the thing with Lloyd George, is he a hero or is he a villain? We're still grateful for some of the things he brought in. But, you know, one historian summed him up as a devious and unscrupulous man who aroused every feeling except trust. Wow. But in in his heyday he was extraordinarily popular with the electorate yeah hundreds of babies born around 1908 to 1911 were given his name either lloyd george or the full david lloyd george i was at school with a david lloyd george really yeah because the thing is no welshman's held, or no Welsh person's held the office of Prime Minister again.

So certainly in Wales, he's still really well known. I can guarantee you there are no babies being born now who've been called Rishi Sunak. Boring. Liz Truss. Liz Truss. Can you imagine? Little Liz Truss at the end of the bed.

Little Liz, baby Liz Truss. Come meet baby Liz. Yeah, Elizabeth's a nice name is that after the Queen it isn't actually you know what I was thinking about there very briefly

a little daydream if knighthood was still 10 grand the idea of us Ellis and me and you doing a little Kickstarter and getting Chris knighted for his birthday

so that's good value Sir Skull Sir Christopher Skull of East Ham What a treat that would be How would you react Chris? It's your birthday and we go Chris Little surprise, you're now a knight

How are you feeling about that? Where's my sword? Where's my shield? Exactly It's just the idea of being Prime Minister and being so brazen about selling peerages and things just to make some money

so you can buy a couple of newspapers I love that that last honours list on your way out even though I think it's scandalous but there is something

quite British about right you know like your last day at work you're going to skive yeah yeah yeah like last day at work all my mates are getting peerages.

And I don't care what you think. It's always friends in high places who are given those peerages. I wanted to be the excellent prime minister, say, you know, Billy, who I went to primary school with. Just like literally just meats. The funny thing with Lloyd George, I'm currently reading the Roy Hattersley biography of Lloyd George. So he's the founding father of the welfare state. And, you know, he was a great peacetime leader. He was an authentic radical. So at the first old age pension, sick pay, unemployment benefit, that all came in under him. He was the architect of those things. He was a tireless champion of the poor, but also like a restless philanderer.

Yeah. And he was basically addicted to living dangerously, which is such a complex character to put in high office, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And a shagger. You couldn't get away with that now, could you? How many of the musical greats that we listen to

who've produced wonderful works of art have also been horrendous to their partners and their friends? Yeah. And being addicted to living dangerously. Yeah, exactly. There's clearly a sort of something which attracts... Power, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose that is what it is.

Whatever's in your character about wanting power is also... Yeah. Seeks power in other ways, I guess. Exactly. Well said, Sir Chris. Well said. Thank you.

Thank you. Have I earned the knighthood? Sir Chris. It's not for me to decide. Sir Chris Skull of Wanstead. The flag is just a skull, isn't it? That's the emblem of it. It's ready-made.

All we now need is 10 grand. No, it would be the West Ham badge. It would be the IMs, wouldn't it? Hey, they're not mutually exclusive. We can have the skull and the hammers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Get it done. And there we have it.

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