Oh What A Time... - #38 Corpses (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed from yesterday! This week we’re looking at some of the all-time great corpses. We’ll be taking a look at the Tollund Man, a whole bunch of corpses still on display around the world, what the Roman’s did with corpses; plus our bonus bit for the OWAT: Full Timers this week is the yarn of what happened to William The Conquerer’s mortal remains. Plus, Corrections Corner is back and it’s Tom on the naughty step. We also get to hear what Welsh sounds like in a Manchester accent. If you’ve got anything to send our way, feel free to ping it to: [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - the 4th part of every episode and ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - a bonus episode every month - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit continue.yorku.ca. Hello and welcome to part two, Corpses. Let's just crack on. Okay, so today I'm going to talk to you about corpses in ancient Rome, which is kind of a fascinating subject just because it's full of the usual sort of bonkers stuff that you'd associate with that period. So to start with, I think it's worth saying that Romans had a complex relationship with death. When an individual died, a code of ritual and tradition kicked in, which imposed certain expectations on the surviving family. Although poorer Romans made much less of a fuss of the dead than rich ones did.

Okay. So funerals of poorer Romans usually took place within about 24 hours with cremation, the method of choice. That's very quick. It is quite quick, isn't it? Yeah. 24 hours.

I don't know if you've ever been involved in arranging a funeral or anything like that. There's a lot of admin involved. And it seems to be taking longer these days. Yes, there is. There's a lot of stuff that's involved. It's something that I've experienced. Also informing people of the death, all these things that you go through.

But if it's 24 hours, you're just kind of going, right, you've got to be here tomorrow. Quick. Yeah, exactly. And then it's all done. Exactly, yeah. You limit the admin. You send out one tweet. You say here tomorrow. Quick. Yeah, exactly. And then it's all done. Exactly, yeah. You limit the admin. You send out one tweet. You say 3 p.m.

By the Coliseum. Tom's dead, and we'll be throwing him in the Thames at 4 o'clock tomorrow. Oh, what a time. Full-timers and subscribers get to attend the funeral. Get to throw a match on the pyre. get to throw a match on the pyre however this 24-hour quick shot deal was not the case for wealthy Romans and this is what I'm really going to talk to you about okay for wealthy Romans the demands of death were huge and I want to get your take on each of these first of all there was a nine-day mourning period after the moment of death.

Not enough. When I go, it's going to be three months. Of celebration. I think with grief, my experience with grief is it's something that comes, it goes. That's what grief is. It's an undulating thing. It's not a consistent thing that's always there. I remember when my dad passed, a useful thing someone said to me was, it's okay to feel whatever you feel at any point it changes it comes and goes and i think that's true of grief and saying you've got nine days of mourning it feels it feels a bit forced

doesn't it start the clock do you know what i mean this is the exact amount of time There is to be no crying on the tenth day. Five, four, three, two, one, get over it! Bam! So it was nine days of mourning. A final kiss was given on the lips of the deceased to mark the passing

of the spirit and some believe... On day nine? Well, this was just at the moment of death yeah some believed to capture capture the last breath was the idea wow during the mourning period no one in the household washed no one went outside no one sacrificed to the gods and no one visited the house if they could help it for fear of ritual pollution so basically you had to remain as you were at the moment of death for nine days so it came to quite a stinky place to be i think i mean i'm like a two shower a day guy that's my sort of

vibe so i could definitely see a situation where i'm i'm caught out coming out of the shower on like day four right so i know that i smell a bit of like i smell of original sauce or whatever someone's sniffing me wait a second what is what is that? I'd find that difficult, personally. What? Like, it's just making it all the more unpleasant for everyone. Yeah, you're already quite sad. You don't need to be sad and smelly. Yeah.

Yeah. No one needs that. Exactly. Only undertakers and their staff were regarded as richly unclean by the virtue of their profession, and so could move freely in and out. Now, you say you didn't want to be smelly, Chris. Well, your odour was not the only concern here, okay?

Because we haven't taken into account what was happening to the body. Yes. So for seven of those nine days, the corpse of the now deceased ancient Roman was on display in the central courtyard of your house. So basically, Gran is in the conservatory. That's what's happening. She's there

for seven days. She's percolating quite nicely in the sunshine. The undertaker has prepared them in some way, but they are sat in your courtyard for seven days. Hottled country. Yeah. They want to die in August,

do you? When did they invent the clothes peg because that feels quite important um but it gets weirder this body was put in a repose on a funeral couch as though reclining during a meal so with makeup applied to disguise the pallor of death and the feet positioned to point towards the door in symbolic preparation for departure. So they would basically prop you up on a seat as if you were enjoying a meal. So it's got quite a lifelike pose, which made me think...

That's quite nice, I think. It is quite nice. I think there's something nice about that, in a way, that you are as you were in life. But it got me thinking, what pose are you going for? What pose are you asking for? I'm Shiro, wheeling away from having scored a goal. Pointing at the sky.

What about you, Chris? That's a good one. Probably deep in thought. Wouldn't you want to be deep in thought? Or one of the great thinkers. Looking at them in front of a chessboard. Chris Spill, one of the great West Ham podcasters and thinkers of our age. Would you want them to open quite a famously complicated book in front of you as well?

Brief history of time. The opening dance move in Village People's YMCA. It's a big why. I've decided that I'd like to be useful for my family one final time. So maybe holding a tray for some drinks or a a stool for people to sit on only the door open yeah yeah exactly yeah and my dad going are you in or out are you coming in or out make your mind up in or out we don't have enough sort of coat pegs in our hall that'd be quite useful so all the fingers splayed out for 10 different coats i don't know there's there's

ways to be useful for final time and then rigor rigor mortis would set in. It'd actually be quite useful. Exactly. And then finally, in this sort of display, a small denomination coin was placed in the mouth of the deceased, known as Charon's obel, which intended to pay the boatman Charon so that the spirit might pass across the river Sphinx and into the underworld. At least that's how the ritual was mythologised in Roman writings. Elsewhere in Rome, the coin could be placed elsewhere in the body, depending on your location. I do hope they're a little bit specific about that.

Yeah. You know, I'm sort of walking and going, what the hell are you doing, Steve? Where's that coin going? Nobody specified the eyes, I'm sorry. Shove it up there. Shove it up there, exactly. Now, interestingly, where roman practice met even older tradition in places

such as egypt other practices emerged for example it was typical amongst wealthy romans to display objects dear to the deceased in a cabinet in the house's atrium so when people came in they'd see things that were dear to that person so anything in your life that you'd like in that little cabinet to reflect who you were? My iPhone. Your iPhone. He loved his iPhone. Imagine having that on your gravestone. He really loved his iPhone.

Exited to stone. On a similar note, I want my fax machine in there. Do you know what's interesting? Cultures. machine in there yeah do you know what with its own power do you know what's interesting cultures you're very tuned into your how your culture treats death i think if anyone acts inappropriately during a time of grieving or during a funeral it is looked down upon it's such it's such a social four-par yeah but obviously with obviously, and that's true even today. And yet, with these traditions, obviously, we don't do them anymore. They eventually died out and changed.

At some point, someone must have said, I'm not sure, this nine days in the bloody courtyard? Is that sensible? Is anyone else? No? But that must have happened. People must have gone, this is bonkers. What are we doing?

100%. And I've always thought Italians were quite good. One of the classic images through history is the idea of the Italian widow in black. They do death quite well in the back of my mind. Yeah. Putting a rotting corpse in the sunshine for nine days yeah well it wasn't just the corpse as i say there was this cabinet full of full of objects that are important and the most common commemorative object left in this cabinet was the death mask

which is a cast of the deceased face taken prior to burial or cremation and in egypt this idea merged with the process of mummification to produce a rather more elaborate presentation. Now, I'm going to tell you about this before I close. The main example of this Egyptian style are these things called Fayyum portraits. Now, have you heard of these? No. No. Which is a series of incredibly well-preserved paintings on wood which show the faces of Roman Egyptians, which will attach to our Instagram once again, which once again, I'm sure we can agree is

what the deceased would want to happen. these paintings would once have been attached to the front of a mummy on the bandage wrappings to remind the viewer to show them who was underneath okay and other techniques included stacco paintings of the mummy shroud and on that they would provide a full-length portrait of the face and what you were wearing in death your final outfit i think it's quite a lot of pressure to what you were wearing in death, your final outfit. I think it's quite a lot of pressure to what you're asking to be buried in. Quick little game.

I predicted here what you would go for as your final outfit to be depicted on the front of your mummified shroud. Just to see if I get it right. Elle, what are you going for? Full Wales kit, but the Euro 2016 version. Oh, I've gone Wales shirt, 1984, matching shorts and a pair of Puma kits. Do you know what?

That, actually you know me better than I know myself because that's a much nicer kit. That team did ultimately underachieve. And Skull, what are you going for? Well, I think it's got to be a West Ham kit now. Is it? No, I've gone white tux and a pair of jeans

with a fashionable tear at the knee. That's what I've gone with. With the death mask, in the pre-photograph age, once someone died, you wouldn't be able to remember their... You had no document of their face. Yes.

For the last hundred years or so, we've had photographs. So when someone died, you were able to look at the photograph and go, and grieve and remember that person. But unless you were being painted, which was reserved for only the very richest people. Yeah, that's completely right. And a final bit of craziness, okay, to do with this. In the 19th century, there was a mad trend, which is when the West were completely obsessed with all things Egyptian. It was not uncommon at that point for wealthy Americans and Europeans to buy mummies when on their visit to Egypt

to furnish their own houses back home, which meant putting mummified quarters wrapped in bandages in the corners of living rooms, dining rooms, studies, libraries, and even bedrooms. Oh, come on. No, thank you. People would have a mummy in the corner of their bedroom.

This is just in the 19th century. In the corner of their room, you would have a mummy looking at you, their bed This is just in the 19th century In the corner of their room You would have a mummy looking at you Possibly with one of these fire portraits on the front There you go Wow, good lord where every nail-biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three-point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk-off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball,

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Now, I've always had a bit of a fascination with this and I find it a bit weird that this kind of goes on. But of course, we had a recent example here in the UK, September 2022, when Queen Elizabeth II died. Hundreds of thousands of people queued around London to view the late monarch lying in state. And of course, some famously didn't queue. David Beckham queued. Were you tempted at all, boys, to go queue up and have a look? No, of course not.

Not my thing, I must admit. I do know people who did it. Yeah, I kind of... The thing I find appealing about it is that sense of history. Maybe I would have liked to have done it, but I'm not queuing eight hours for it. It was longer than that.

It was like a 24-hour shuffle, wasn't it? Oh, man. But I appreciate the draw and why people are drawn to do that. It was just, yeah. Yeah, I get it. But there's a lot more pomp and ceremony if you happen to live in a dictatorship

through history. Chairman Mao, he wanted to be cremated. But you can go to Mao Memorial Hall in Tiananmen Square in Beijing and go into a darkened room and see his embalmed corpse draped in the red flag of the Chinese Communist Party set beneath a glass coffin. The one I'm

fascinated by, and I'm sure you'll be discussing this, is Lenin. Well, Lenin, I'll get on to him, but just before that, if you want to go to North Korea, and for a while, I'd say when I kind of came out of my mid-twenties, I was like, I really want to go to North Korea. I don't know why. I just found it so...

And I know all about, like, you just get taken around. You don't get to see any of the real North Korea. You get a very sanitised sanitized virgin and of course it is so dangerous but should you go you will be able to see kim il-sung and kim jong-il they're both on display at tourist focused mausolea yeah amazing and of course you can go see the scenes of their their funerals the public displays of grief when both of those guys died and in vietnam you can go see the embalmed body of Ho Chi Minh, should you fancy. Can you? I didn't know that.

But the inspiration for all these dictators on display, I don't know if you know this, is the embalmed corpse of Vladimir Lenin. It has now been on display in Moscow's Red Square since January 1924, over 100 years now. Wow! Out there, getting looked at. I was probably a little kid, actually, when I first discovered this.

I could not believe it. Totally agree. It's so odd to put it on display. That Soviet system was his brainchild. And for so many years, this was like owning the media and having the means to offer up propaganda. He was almost, he became a godlike figure in death. And people could go from throughout the Soviet Union and go visit and see his corpse.

So the big question, how do you keep a hundred-year-old corpse in fine fettle? Yes. Oil of Yule, am I right? Applied twice a day. Do you know what I like about you, Tom? It hasn't been called Oil of Yule for about 35 years. Oh, is it not? What's it called now?

And that is what I call it as well. It's Oil of Oule now. They changed the name. But for the two of us stuck in the 80s, we're still calling it oil of Olay. Well, this is what's working wonders for Lenin's skin, and I wouldn't recommend trying this yourself. Once a year, he gets removed and is soaked in a solution of glycerol and potassium acetate.

He hasn't got his real eyeballs in there. That's what I do, though, Chris. That's my bathing routine. It's once a year that I'm... Is that why you look so young? Yeah, exactly, Chris. That's my bathing routine. It's once a year that I'm... Is that why you look so young? Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's my fresh face. I'm actually 98.

He's got synthetic eyeballs in his eye, in his orbital cavities, to prevent the eye sockets from collapsing. Bloody hell. If you were to use the one-day time machine and go visit the Lenin's mausoleum between 1953 and 1961, you would also get a Brucie bonus

of being able to see Joseph Stalin as well. But Joseph Stalin's body was removed in October 1961 as part of the Soviet Union's de-Stalinisation programme. But Lenin is still there now. Right. So the actual construction of the mausoleum around him, it was constructed in three days in minus 30 degrees weather just after Lenin died in January 1924.

A construction made of wood and it was designed to mimic the steps of ancient Egypt. The work of architect Alexei Shishushev who had previously specialised in Orthodox churches and railway stations. But it was soon realised this wooden construction that is housing 100,000 people to come funnel through and have a look at lenin's corpse over those first few weeks was so small that they needed a larger version the larger version opened in august 1924 but then was replaced in november 1930 after mold started creeping into the structure and also on lenin's body so the present sarcophagus with its grass glass windows the new mausoleum built in November 1930, that's largely the one that's still there.

And then the sarcophagus that Lenin's body is in with glass windows, the creation of Nikolai Tomsky in the early 1970s. Now, Stalin's coffin was paraded through Moscow in 1953. And as we said, like these scenes of great dictators dying the level of mourning is just a few leagues above what we saw with Queen Elizabeth II I think it's fair to say Stalin's coffin was draped in a bright red cloth and it had a viewing dome so mourners could see the face and thousands and thousands of people filed into the hall of columns in Moscow to see the shrunken body of Stalin in a military uniform, surrounded by so many flowers.

It's untrue. It looks like Kew Gardens. It's well worth having a look at how many pictures. How shrunken? Is he like two foot three? How shrunken is he? We're not talking five foot three kind of Tollan man, Alan McKay standards, but shrunken nonetheless.

Okay. But do you know, in London, you can go visit a semi-corpse right now. Have you heard of Jeremy Bentham? Yes. The 19th century utilitarian philosopher. Well, yeah. I studied him at university. Is his body embalmed?

If you go to University College London, you will see the remains of the embalmed body. No. The 18th and 19th century philosopher. Isn't he in quite a lifelike pose? Is that right? Yes, he's kind of sat down, glasses to one side,

almost as if he's ready to have a conversation with his observer. So Bentham wrote this all out in his will. He said, if it should so happen that my personal friends and other disciples should be disposed to meet together on some days or days of the year

for the purpose of commemorating the founder of the greatest happiness of system of morals and legislation. My executor will from time to time be conveyed to the room in which they meet the said box or the case with the contents therein to be stationed in such part of the room as to the assembled company shall see meet. Oh my God.

He wanted to be kind of embalmed and placed into a position that people, for whatever reason, his friends could sit down and maybe pretend to have a conversation with him. It became known, his pose and his kind of corpse, as the auto icon. But that is a level of FOMO that I have never heard of. Even after death, you have a fear of missing out on social gathering with your mates. So, as per Bentham's instructions, his preserved skeleton is dressed in his own clothes. The clothes are padded out with straw, and he wanted his own head. But the embalming process was,'s just say a bit experimental and the

preservation process was mangled and basically the they thought this head his original head is too horrific to actually use so what you see if you were to go have a look at jeremy bentham is his real skeleton is under the clothes in his real clothes. His real hair, but that is a waxwork head. But they used to have the actual head, his real head, which is a bit gory, would sit between his legs. And it'd be on display for many, many years. However, around about the 80s and the 90s, students kept nicking the head. Oh, my God.

Right. Okay. And holding it ransom and demanding the university give like a ransom payment to shelter playing a game of five aside and people would take people would take it around the country like it was once it went up to scotland come on wow so the university said you know what let's just put the head away so the head still exists but it's locked up it's in storage but the embalmed body jeremy Bentham, you can see that. It is on display.

And University College London have had it since 1850. So if you're interested in going to see some of the historic corpses in these bodies, they're knocking around, even in London, all over the place. I'm sure Jeremy Bentham will be delighted by the fact that his skeleton is on show in a padded out clothes while

his head has been removed and is in storage elsewhere which is exactly what he hoped would happen do you think he was hoping that maybe after death you you might be able to see something through your head you know like he might be able to observe the world and would he be absolutely furious that his body's in one bit but his head is just in a cupboard yeah i mean he might be able to observe the world and would he be absolutely furious that his body's in one bit but his head is just in a cupboard yeah i mean he might just be staring at that cupboard if i believed that i would ask to be propped up in the back row of an odian cinema so that i at least get four films a day every year the rest of my life every year i say to myself i watch all of the films that were nominated

for Oscars this year the only way I'll manage it is if I die in them propped up at the back of an everyman until a point when Netflix completely kills cinema

and then you're just left in a dark dusty room exactly for eternity alright so that's Exactly, for eternity. Alright, so that's it for this week. Thank you for listening.

Why not become an Oh What A Time full-timer? Because if you do, you're going to get an extra part which is on the body of William the Conqueror and what happened to it. And it's pretty gory and horrific. You might want to hear this. Plus, you get a bonus episode every month. The whole episode in one complete bit, ad-free, a week in advance. Loads of good stuff.

To sign up, go to owatertime.com. You'll see the options there. But otherwise, thank you for joining us for Corpses. We'll see you next week. Goodbye. Bye. Thank you.