Oh What A Time... - #39 Survival (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

In this episode we’ll be taking a look at incredible stories of survival through history; from the men of the American Civil War who had their lives saved via a Bible in their pocket, Alexander Selkirk - the man whose story inspired Robinson Crusoe, Violet Jessop - who survived three infamous ships of the White Star Line and the bonus bit for the OWAT: Full Timers this week is ‘the miracle of the Andes’ ie. the story of the Uruguayan rugby team who survived a plane crash in the Andes and were forced into cannibalism to overcome starvation (among many, many other hardships). Elsewhere, this week we’re discussing ‘Custardo’ and whether this is a realistic alternative for Tom given his love of drinking neat custard. We also discuss whether it’s appropriate to bring the embalmed bones of Jeremy Bentham on tour with us. If you’ve got anything to add on anything here, you know what to do: [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - two bonus episodes every month! - ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Eligibility and member terms apply. Looking for a collaborator for your career? A strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.yorku dot ca. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was just a bit of a nastier time period, what with all those public executions and the like. I'm Chris Scull.

I'm Ellis James. And I'm Tom Crane. And each week on this show, we'll be looking at a new historical subject. And today, we're going to be discussing survival. The story that inspired Robinson Crusoe, the American Civil War, Violet Jessop, who survived three famous ship-based incidents, and for the old-time full-timers, we'll be discussing the Miracle of the Andes. Am I right, Al? Before we even started recording this, you discussed the Miracle of the Andes with us

and said it was far worse than you could ever have imagined. And I knew it was bad. Okay. That's the plane crash, is that right? Is that the plane crash? Yes. That is discussed in The Simpsons and in the film Alive, which came out when I was about 13. And obviously I knew the headlines. Yeah. But Daryl Leaworthy, our fantastic historian,

does the research for us. When he prepared the research, I read it last night and my jaw dropped. My jaw dropped. And like in a cartoon, I had to put it back to where it should be so it's a blood curdling scream was heard from the velux window at the top of your house yeah if he went through paragraph by paragraph he branded it though the miracle of the andes because it was for me it's the plane crashed where everyone eats each other well they stuck well

to be honest chris they started they started with the andes they moved up to the armies no sorry it's not good stuffies no sorry we'll cut that out it's not good stuff if the editor's listening cut it out it's good stuff and it just shows how versatile you can be Tom if you were dropping gags like that while we were freezing to death on the Andes

I would be making a serious case for you to be up next on the BBQ oh yeah Tom is first definitely nominating my tongue first to stop any further guys this disaster would be a lot more bearable if we ate tom so it's gonna be a fun episode this i'm i'm really looking forward to it talking about survival let's see if i can get a link from this i haven haven't even thought what the link will be. I need to go from survival to correspondence. Can I do it?

Shall we find out? One of Britain's best writers is about to attempt the impossible. Okay. Well, you think surviving life on the Andes is hard. You should try trawling through thousands of emails every day. Now that's a real struggle. It's not really thousands, but there's plenty. Thank you for getting in contact. Chris, wow. Now, that's a real struggle. It's not really thousands, but there's plenty.

Thank you for getting in contact. Chris, you're in charge this week. What have we been sent? All right, welcome to Correspondence. Now, Mark's been on. Mark Winstanley. He says... Oh, yeah.

Gents, all your talk of favourite liquids or non-Newtonian fluids reminded me of a New Year's Eve treat a friend brought round to share with me it was get this Tom a flask of Custardo

have you heard of this? oh I haven't no what's that? a delicious mixture of coffee and custard which should really now be the official

drink of the pod now thanks to Mark I've looked into this well can I just say very quickly Chris this is the official drink of the pod surely because Ellisis's great passion is coffee yeah my great passion is custard and chris's great passion of course is is the flask

coming together of our three great love and mixing things that should never be mixed exactly combinations i'm genuinely excited by this. Custard. Okay, hit me. Go on. Caffeinated custard. Part of me thought, is Mark winding us up? So I did some research.

Custard is a real thing. Right. So it's one shot of espresso, one shot of custard. That's a weird sentence. A shot of custard. Being in the bar, should we get the custard in? You're walking back to the table. Custard bomb.

Custard slammer. So it's created by a restaurant called Forza Wynn in Peckham in London. And I read a review of Custardo. Apparently the custard cuts through the espresso's bitterness. Wow. Go out your way have a costardo so it's a shot of it's a shot of coffee and a shot of custard my problem is i've given up coffee because it makes me very anxious but crucially you haven't given up custard but that's the problem i love it so much yeah and also custard chills you out so you'll kind of they'll balance each other. They might balance me. You'll feel perfect.

My feeling is, look, I do love custard, but I don't, when I drink it, I'm not looking to, it's not normally at the beginning of a working day, I'm not looking to be more alert after the custard. They're sort of separate experiences. It's not like, they're different roads, aren't aren't they surely a custard feels like a relaxing thing it's you know by a bonfire it's with your friends but you see i would say the same about a martini okay but then you have espresso martinis and it changes the game yes an espresso custard

i look i think we're overlooking the big factor here, Tom, which is that I think it's socially acceptable to be drinking a little paper cup of costardo in a way that is not acceptable to drink a little paper cup of custard. Do you know what I mean? Well. You're going to sound sophisticated. I'll tell you what this has given me, Chris.

Look, I don't drink caffeine, so I won't be drinking costardo, but if I ever am caught drinking custard, I will claim it's costardo. Nice. What it's given me is a loophole excuse. And if they say, can I try it? I've never had castado. I say, no, you can't. I love custard that much.

I'm not giving you any of it. And that will be the only way I can stop them checking and finding out it's actually just straight custard. Can I have a cup of castado and just hold the espresso, please? If you've ever had a castado, please let us know. Would you like a one-day time machine? Oh, yes, please. Cue the jingle.

Not as much as I'd like a decaf costado. It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. So Amanda Dalton's been on. She says My One Day Time Machine pick

I would want to take my phone And document contested Or incompletely documented history Maybe conduct some interviews as well There's so much to choose from What's up with Stonehenge? Was Alexander really great? What happened to the crew on the Mary Celeste?

Was Atlantis a thing? And I actually think Amanda's onto something here. If you could take your phone back and film something from history and go, look, come back and show everyone what happened. But I'm trying to use less of my phone at the moment. I'm not trying to use another excuse to be on my iPhone. I think you can make an exception.

I don't know. I don't know. Filming Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon. I think't know. I don't know, filming Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon. I think you're like, well I've sort of set limits on screen time but that's Julius Caesar, Tom. Footage of Atlantis and Claire, my wife,

saying this is exactly what we talked about, Tom. You need to be, you promised me you wouldn't be on your iPhone. Tom, have a look at Atlantis. Why are you always on your phone? Okay, I do see that point. That is interesting. I mean, what would you try and document?

What would you go back and try and document in that case, in that line? What are you going to try and prove? Well, any contested stuff. So I'm trying to think of something off the top of my head. I mean, you could do the Norman Conquest, couldn't you? Battle of Hastings would be a good one. Yeah, Battle of Hastings.

This is one for Clarification's Corner. Isn't there now some debate as to whether Harold actually got an arrow in the eye? Oh, yes, there is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, imagine filming that on your iPhone. What a harrowing little video that would be to pop in your favourites. Alongside a video of your son riding a bike for the first time. Harold with the arrow in his eye, that would go viral.

You're looking at over 200 likes for that on X. Millions of retweets. Especially if it's like a six-second loop that you can stick on Instagram. What about Christ's ascension to heaven? That would clear up a lot of stuff, wouldn't it? Yes, it really, really would. Get that ticked off. It's going to sort out a lot of issues.

It's an interesting one. I like that idea. I do like that idea. See, that's actually quite a useful way of using the one-day time machine, which isn't normally what people's end up. Yeah. One more email. This one from Linda Nathan.

And I was super interested to hear this one. Back in the midst of the early 80s, my first job after graduating was as a library assistant at University College London. And I started work a few weeks before the end of the summer vacation during those early days walking through the cloisters from one library to another I would pass a polished wooden cabinet but didn't give it much thought term started and one morning as I wandered through the now bustling cloisters I embarrassed myself with a startled

scream as the cupboard doors were now open and an old man in a hat was staring at me yes of course it was the embalmed body of jeremy bentham which as nobody had seen fit to mention to me was kept in the cupboard and open to public view during term time after the initial shock i became used to seeing jb and felt he was quite benevolent presence i think maybe it helped once i knew it wasn't his real head thank you love the pop linda so there we go we covered jeremy bentham last week his embalmed I think maybe it helped once I knew it wasn't his real head. Thank you. Love the pod. Linda. So there we go. We covered Jeremy Bentham last week. His embalmed bones, it turns out, still on display with the fake head.

I thought about Jeremy Bentham every day since we've done that episode. I've dreamt about Jeremy Bentham. What was happening in your Jeremy Bentham dream? Were you out, like, having fun together? In the Jeremy Bentham dream, I was sitting next to him and people were looking at us both, and I was trying to tell them that I was alive. It was absolutely horrible. Imagine the horror on people's faces

when we do our first Oh What A Time live show and the guest is Jeremy Bentham. Wheeled out. With a simple string and pulley we make his jaw move as well what do you think about that Jerry

I like the idea I like that he would shift tickets he would shift tickets I also I think Jeremy Bentham would love it he was into that

kind of thing it'd be the biggest gig he ever did oh my god well in his diaries as we mentioned, he talked about he wanted to be wheeled out, be part of a social occasion when his friends met in the future.

What better way? Would you? A thousand people at Letter Square Theatre. Fucking hell. Jeremy Bentham, live and unleashed. Oh, we have a format point. Oh, that's so funny. Go on, do your stuff about the separation of church and state.

Go on. And then the guest for part two, Lennon. At the end, he's between us, I suppose, an arm draped on each of our shoulders. We sort of sway and sing a goodbye song at the end. He lived to a ripe old age, Ben. He lived until he was 84. Died in 1832.

I'm always impressed by people who lived to that age back then. Back then, yeah. Yes. But then he was a man of wealth, wasn't he, I suppose? I imagine. He was a man of standing. His wealthy family were supporters of the Tory party yeah he was reportedly

a child prodigy he was found as a toddler sitting at his father's desk reading a multi-volume history of England and he began to began to study Latin at the age of three

he learned to play the violin and at the age of seven Bentham would perform sonatas by Handel during dinner parties the biggest gig he's done is the Oh What A Time

live show Ellis yeah I can say this during dinner parties. The biggest gig he's done is the Oh What A Time live show. Ellis. Yeah. I can say this because I confidently can say he's not listening, but my youngest son is three and he's not potty-chained. Gerry Bentham is learning Latin at that age. Yeah.

The problem is when you've got kids... It makes me feel awful as a parent. When you've got kids and then you read about the prodigies, you think, fuck. I'm so sorry. Oh, I've let you down. Sorry, sorry. Right, we have one other thing to talk about, I think, before we burst into the history, don't we?

Yes. Elle or Chris, who wants to explain the forthcoming rejig to the subscriber whatnot? Well, the current system as is, is going to change. For oh, what a time, full time. For oh, what a time, full time. The subscribers who subscribe via Apple, Spotify or another slice. Because for me, May is a time of renewal.

Yeah. You know. Absolutely. And spring for me sign of renewal. Yeah. You know. Absolutely. And spring, for me, signifies change. Yeah. And it also signifies a slightly better deal for subscribers. Yes. I think.

The new lambs. It's the new lambing season. It's when you get to see the new litter of subscriber benefits. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So currently, O2 Time full timers, they get an extra part to every episode. So if you're listening and you're not subscribing,

you get three parts. Obviously, you'll get a fourth part if you're a subscriber. As of May, as part of our new renewal drive, lambs are larking about in fields. The daffs are out, etc, etc. We're giving you not one, but two extra bonus episodes a month. To me, Tom,

that's a good deal. It's a great deal. So that's two brand new subscriber episodes, only available to subscribers every single month on a completely new period or part of history each time slightly slightly more work for our historian we haven't really cleared that with him yet but that's fine he's gonna have to deal with it so to wrap this all up in a nice little bow basically from the

1st of may if you're a subscriber you'll get the three parts in one go a week ahead on the monday ad free and then you're going to get two bonus episodes per month instead of one and then what i'm also going to do is all the fourth parts historically that have been tagging onto episodes i'm going to combine them into one mega episode that will also be available to subscribers so if you want to support the show and get extra stuff ad free go become an oh what a time full timer you can do that oh what a time.com go there you'll see all your options and also guys we've mentioned it we're going to do live shows this year as well and jeremy bentham is going to be wheeled out you'll

get first dibs on those tickets surely university college london will be up for that i don't imagine bentham is getting a lot of booking requests i never thought i'd have to say this but i don't imagine Bentham's getting a lot of booking requests. I never thought I'd have to say this, but I don't want a corpse on stage with me, Chris. I assume this is just a joke. I obviously don't want a dead man on stage with me. Just to nip that in the bud, if you really are planning on getting in contact with them. I would go as far to say I'd refuse to do the show. Wouldn't you, Ellis?

Get him out of what? Do you know what? I would like to say that I'd refuse to do the show, but I'm such a live animal. As soon as I saw people walking into the theatre or the auditorium, I'd be like, the gig has to happen. The show must go on. We should really have discussed this before the day.

I would say it's more of an admin error more than anything, but unfortunately we've made our beds now. And it is funny but is it humiliating he's in speed yeah yeah go and make up bentham we're doing it right if you'd like to get in contact with the show with any one day time machine ideas any crazy custard stories or concerns about wheeling out a dead man on stage at the leicester square theatre yeah here's how you get in contact with a show. Interesting, isn't it?

We're sort of part history, part custard podcast. Part custard pod. Part putting a corpse on stage pod. We are mainly custard pods, part history. Yeah. Oh, God, that's sad. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show.

You can email us at hello at oh, what a time dot com. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh, What a Time Pod. Now clear off. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to power your scale with no preset spending limit. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply.

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Must be 19 or older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. So later in today's episode, I'm going to be talking to you about the real Robinson Crusoe. And I'll be telling you all about Viol jessup an irish argentinian stewardess with the white star line who had three ship-based disasters that she survived ship base was that just to be clear shit i didn't hear that okay good okay fine terrible dysentery okay and then and you ellis i am discussing the American Civil War and the importance of Bibles when it comes to survival in general. Now, the American Civil War, 1861 to 1865, cost more than 600,000 lives, perhaps considerably more.

So there was a revised estimate published in 2012, and that put the figure at around three quarters of a million dead. So there were differing sizes of military forces. So you had about two million fighting on behalf of the Union Army, and one million fighting on behalf of the Confederacy. But if you look at the maths, a soldier had an approximately one in four chance of being killed either way. It was mechanised warfare. It was a really, really brutal conflict. Obviously, if you're listening in America,

we've got quite a lot of listeners in the US. You'll have studied it at school and you'll know exactly what we're talking about. We don't really... I don't remember ever studying the american civil war university or at school actually completely you know there's sort of like periods in history where you think you should know more about them the american civil war is absolutely for me the thing i know nowhere near enough about despite the fact it's monumentally important yeah i know

a little i know a little bit because there's a great Ken Burns documentary about the American Civil War, and it's absolutely sensational. But also, the American Civil War is a war with a great soundtrack. There's a lot of kind of folk songs of that war at that time. Yes, that's true, actually. And they're powerful songs. Yes, that's a really good point. Where can people see that Ken Burns documentary?

Where did you see it? I think I might have watched it on Netflix Oh, okay Do you remember what it was called? Okay It's called The Civil War Chris, would you say that the good music balances out the quarter of a million dead?

Out of interest Do you think that makes it level? I'm just intrigued as to what your feelings on that. Well, this is a mad version of Radio 4's moral maze, isn't it? Can you imagine Michael Burke trying to marshal this conversation? But isn't it interesting that some wars, this is a strange comment, but some wars have a good soundtrack.

I would say the American Civil War has a good, there's a lot of good songs that come out of it. First World War has some good poetry. The Vietnam War. Well, I would say far better poetry to come out of World War I than World War II. Yeah, absolutely. World War II, there's not great songs about it.

Vera Lynn, there was all this sort of music. Someone who's got a copy of Penguin's poetry of the 1930s on his bedside wow if you want amazing poetry it's it's the poetry in that decade leading up to war is incredible when people knew that something awful was about to happen before bed i uh i'd prop the laptop on my knees and i watched something on netflix and you read poetry for the 1930s if someone had to guess who the ages of the two of us

and whether we were friends you'd obviously go well no obviously one of them's 90 and the other's 18 there's no way they're friends I started reading poetry recently

after about a week of doing it I was like oh I'm reading poetry I was a little bit of self-congratulation there because I'd never really

done it before but I felt like oh I'm a cultural rebirth. You know what, Chris? I'm about to say something to you that is awful and I hope you take it in the spirit of which it was intended. I watched a video on social media of a bloke spouting some really horrible beliefs in Romford the other day.

I was born in Romford. He just reminded me of you. I was born in Romford. So that's... I might have been related to that guy. Yeah, anyway. I'm just going to say, listeners, I highly likely have a very different belief system

than that guy Ellis saw on TV. Yeah, absolutely. I like the fact you've got me with highly likely as opposed to I definitely have. It's a 98% chance. Highly likely. Okay, back to the Civil War. Back to the Civil War.

I'm not on the Confederate side on this. Please continue. The majority of the people in the Union States believed that enslavement of men, women and children should be outlawed in america and abolitionists in the union were working to build support for ending slavery in america on the other hand the confederacy was founded upon the belief in white supremacy and supported enslavement so while the majority of settlers didn't personally own slaves they believed most believed that their state had the right to determine

if it was legal to own human beings and treat them like property. So that was sort of, in a nutshell, I suppose that is how you would explain the American Civil War. You know, the Union was more industrialised, anti-slavery, believed in larger federal government as well,

whereas the Confederacy believed in state rights, was pro-slavery, had an economy. It was a slightly different part of America that had an economy based on agriculture. So it's a really interesting conflict that I think oddly, certainly in Great Britain and the UK, we tend not to know very much about.

If you were fighting in the American Civil War, you were beating the odds almost. Now there were stories of miraculous survivals on the battlefield involving Bibles. And these have been recorded since the 17th century when firearms were established as a mainstay in European wars. Now, since the English Civil War, the 1640s, when roundhead soldiers carried 16-page pamphlet Bibles issued by Oliver Cromwell,

there have been lots of stories of miraculous survival thanks to bullies becoming lodged in the Bible that was kept in breast pockets. Oh, wow. Or maybe they might have been, bullies might have been deflected by coins and other matter. And that's more common during the World Wars. And this is something, it would crop up in things like Blackadder and it would crop up in often light-hearted stuff around war

where you'd have a Bible in your pocket and the bullet would bounce off it. And I always thought it was like a comedic device. I thought it was bollocks. I thought, I can't actually be happening. But it did. So one of these stories involves Charles M. Merrill of the Union Army. So in August 1860...

Can I ask one quick question, Al? Yeah. If Bibles are saving so many lives, why is armour not made out of Bibles? Well, this is my question. Why are not people wearing full Bible suits? This is my question as well. And we'll come to this, right?

Okay. Now, Charles W. Merrill of the Union Army in August 1862, so he was a few months shy of his 25th birthday in the November, he signed up as a volunteer. Before his departure to join the unit, his pastor gave him a copy of the New Testament to carry wherever he went. So Merrill's family came from West Newbury,

near Boston in Massachusetts where they were farmers so there are photographs of him taken before he went off to fight and he was a tall, robust, quite serious looking bloke there are letters that are survived from him he obviously had those kind of robust characteristics and you could tell from his writings he said things like

if anyone wants to know how I'm getting along tell them first rate which is how I imagine he spoke you know that kind of John Mulaney the American stand-up. That voice he uses occasionally. So he was stationed near Fredericksburg in Virginia with the 19th Regiment of the Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry.

Now, they hadn't moved for days, his unit, and they're running out of supplies. He was keeping these facts from his family. Now, in the December, the reality of what his regiment had been waiting for was made apparent. They'd been preparing to engage the Confederate Army at the Battle of Fredericksburg. 200,000 troops. That's just an extraordinary amount, isn't it?

We're involved in a four-day battle run from the 11th of December to the 15th of December 1862. It was to end in failure for the Union Army led by General Burnside with more than 12,000 Yankee soldiers lying dead on the battlefield and a further five and a half thousand rebels were killed too. Now he was, Merrill, Charles Merrill was fortunate this time he survived. Five months later on the 3rd of May 1863 the Union Army re-engaged the Confederates at

Fredericksburg as part of the Chancellorsville campaign. It was a much smaller battle this time with about a quarter of the numbers of soldiers present and the Union Army was able to gain the yn Fredericksburg fel rhan o'r cymheithiwr y Cynulliad Chancelorwyr. Roedd yn bwrdd llawer mwy fach y tro hon, gyda chwarta o'r niferoedd o'r swyddogion sydd ar gael, ac roedd yr Armei'r Unio yn gallu gael y llaw, er bod yr Armei'r Cynffedredig wedi ddiweddu ei gyflawni yn y cymheithiwr fwyaf. Nawr, ei uned, uned Charles Merrill, roedd yn llai o'r llaw ymlaen â'r gwarthegau y Cynffedredig. Ond wrth iddynt ymlaen, roedd llythynion shrapnel yn cael eu llwyddo, ac fe wnaeth y llaw yn mynd i mewn i'w llaw,

yn mynd drwy ei sgwrs, ac yn cael ei lodd y tu ôl ei dde. Roedd y llaw ddwy, a fyddai'n cael ei ddiwethaf, rain down and a bullet hit Merrill in the eye, travelling through his skull, and lodged behind his right ear. A second bullet, which would have killed him instantly, was stopped by the Bible in his pocket. Wow. Now, he survived the battlefield and was taken to hospital where doctors removed the bullet. They gave it to him...

From the head? Yeah, they gave it to him to keep as a keepsake, but warned that his right eye might be lost. Now, for four days he was in hospital and probably in a very good spirit okay so news of the miracle as it was called reached all the way to the White House. So Merrill's bullet ridden Bible was taken

on a tour like the little Bible became a kind of celebrity. Incredible. And Abraham Lincoln who was the president obviously was one of the people who saw it so he gave Merrill a replacement signing it A. A. Lincoln, May the 8th, 1863. Wow. Because it's this incredible story.

He's got a Bible in his breast pocket. Yeah. It fucking saves his life. It's, you know, it deflects a bloody bullet, right? But unfortunately, it wasn't to be. So on the 12th of May, nine days later. You know, he was wounded in his head. Something went wrong and an artery ruptured. And by half past two that afternoon, age 25, he was dead.

He was unlucky in the end that his head injury was so severe because for that he would have survived. And other soldiers survived as well whose Bibles stopped bullets, right? For instance, Jacob Christ of the 14 Iowa Volunteer Infantry. He was saved by his Bible and he lived until he was 94. Now there is a postscript to this story. In the Second World War American soldiers were given

government issued heart-shaped Bibles. Right. Which were manufactured to fit exactly into a breast pocket and given a metal cover to add to the book's stopping power. Which in my opinion is not enough. You know like you see in cartoons and kids are going into battle

and they've got the tops of biscuit tin lids, like sellotips to their chests. You're like, mate, I'm fighting the bloody Nazis. I need more than a heart-shaped Bible in my fucking pocket. I need a full-size human-shaped Bible. That's what I need. That I can put around in front of me.

There was a little metal cover to these Bibles and there were various engravings in the metal with phrases like, may this keep you safe from harm or may God go with you. They were the two most common ones. I would feel that was taking the piss, personally. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Now, had it not been for the tales of bulletproof Bibles and miraculous survival from the American Civil War, obviously it seems likely that this sort of intervention by the government wouldn't have happened. Yeah. But these stories just lived long in the memories. People are like, yeah, cool, I'll have a heart-shaped Bible. So people like Charles Merrill had a really lasting,

long-lasting impact on military culture. Wow, that's mad. I suppose it also spoke to a very Christian nation at the time. So the idea would have been a want to perpetuate these stories because it played into the importance of faith and all these sort of things that really resonated across everyone at that point, I suppose. But that is so interesting isn't it you would think bloody hell god fucking loves me yeah of all the places to be hit i've been hit in the bible that i kept in front of my heart

i mean if you were in any way vaguely religious you'd think to yourself yeah i'm gonna live till i'm 100 and i'm gonna be a millionaire but then if everyone in the army basically has one of those Bible placed by their heart, chances are some people are going to get hit in the Bible. And on occasion, the Bible is going to save the bullet. Well, then you think to yourself, either I am part of God's wider plan or, oh my God, God loves our army. He is desperate for us to win. He was given a copy with just the New Testament, you said earlier as well. I think I'd be pushing for one with the Old Testament as well.

And Moby Dick. Really, let's make this as thick as possible. Let's get footnotes. Let's get ones where there's... The first letter of every part of the Bible is done really ornately and takes up another page. I was given a copy of the New Testament in my first week of secondary school. Really?

Yeah. Just the New Testament? Yes. Do people do that? Could you separate the old and the new? They'd come in separate? Yeah. I doubt it happens as much now, but I went to a normal Welsh language state school,

and it was looking back quite religious. So yeah we were all given a copy of the New Testament in... And one weekend you were shot with a potato gun weren't you and it lodged in the BB gun in the heart in Mark 1 There's something weird I know about the American

Civil War which is that there were survivors of the battles of Gettysburg who lived until the 1950s and i've actually seen a youtube clip of survivors from the battle of gettysburg on tv in the 1950s yeah and you're like that's such a weird like such a weird crossing of eras like the yes television is a medium being used to talk to survivors of the American Civil War. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Weird that, isn't it? That's like time travel. I saw one on Twitter a few weeks

ago and it did feel like time travel. Remarkable. Yeah. Well, the picture of the oldest person, there's a photograph of a woman taken at the very beginning of, the very dawn of photography, and she was about 90. So she was about 90. So she was born in like the 1740s or something.

Really? And he's like, bloody hell. I actually looked up the other day the first photograph ever taken. I'm doing this off the top of my head. And I have to say, poor quality. quality all right well that's it for part one join us tomorrow for part two of course if you want part two right now and you want to become know what time full timer you'll get two bonus episodes every month from the 1st of may plus loads of other good stuff to sign up go to owatertime.com otherwise we'll see you

tomorrow bye Thank you.