Oh What A Time... - #5 Marriage

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

This week we're talking marriage through the ages; from the legally loose nuptials in medieval England, to shacking up with your cousin in ancient Egypt plus we explain why tavern keepers in ancient Rome had such a hard time getting hitched. This first series will contain 12 episodes that we’ll be releasing weekly. If there's an episode you'd like to hear, please let us know! And thank you so much for your support for the podcast since our launch a few weeks ago. If you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? (Thus taking heed of our increasingly desperate pleas for reviews). If you’d like to get in touch with the show (perhaps to tell us when was the worst period in history or if we've INEVITABLY got something wrong) you can email us at: [e-mail] We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @ohwhatatimepod Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. And see what crypto can be. I'm going back to university for $0 delivery fee, up to 5% off orders and 5% Uber cash back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month.

Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Looking for a collaborator for your career? A strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.yorku.ca Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was as awful as it seems. I'm Ellis James.

I'm Chris Scull. And I'm Tom Crane. Each week on this show we'll be looking at a new historical subject and today we're going to be discussing marriage. From marrying your cousin in ancient Egypt to marriage in ancient Rome to the genuinely mortifying ideal of consummating your marriage in medieval Britain. There you go, buckle up. But shall we kick off with some correspondence? Let's do it. Now, last week, dedicated listeners will know that we talked about the awful life that people used to experience when they lived at sea and they worked at sea. And we've got quite a few emails on this subject, and one that really stuck out for us. Now, it's from a guy called Samuel Robert Kinghorn, who is a Royal Navy officer.

There you are. Look at this. Great name. And he was always going to be an officer with that name. Absolutely. Although it also has a slight sort of sound of like a naughty, posh schoolboy. Kinghorn! Damn you!

Is that a frog in your pocket? Headmaster's office, Kinghorn! Now, Robert Kinghornhorn Now Robert Kinghorn Samuel Robert Kinghorn Sorry sir Has got in contact to say I have an amusing Slash terrifying anecdote

About our life at sea That you three salty sea dogs May enjoy I like that Someone from the Navy Has called us salty sea dogs That's how I've always identified As a salty sea dog

All emails from now on Please refer to us Salty sea That's how I've always identified as a salty sea dog. All emails from now on, please refer to us as salty sea dogs. He said... Yeah, the SSDs. While on my previous unit, we were operating in the mid to north Atlantic on a nice day when it was fairly calm. And often in these situations, we would stop the ship in the water and some crew would jump off and go for a swim. And this was in water that was, on six kilometers deep okay so my no the battle crews would slow down and they would leap off into the six kilometer deep water picture oh my god picture attached as proof there's a photo of him swimming around he says additionally this is a bit that worries

me perfectly honest additionally you'll notice next to the bridge of the ship near the top that there is someone leaning on a minigun with a covering over it and this man is on shark watch which is exactly what it sounds like and that's why he's got a minigun ready kind regards sam the royal navy officer hang on if there's a shark sure you know attack it so're not going to try and shoot it, are you? With a minigun? Now then, I will never in my life need to swim that badly. It is a good point, though. Adding bullets to the mix. Bullets, something which is, I think, one of the few things which is as dangerous as a shark.

Yeah, yeah. Tossing those into the mix. Horrendous. I'll tell you one brief thing about this this for me is like the epitome i'm exactly like you of things i would never want to do i have a profound fear of sharks also a profound fear of deep water the two of those absolutely freak me out and um there is a reason for this i don't know if i've told you about this before but um when i was eight i was fascinated with sharks and i asked my mum for christmas to buy me a book on sharks and uh she got quite

confused instead she bought me a book on shark attacks and it was 300 pages of the most horrific images you've ever seen in your entire life oh my god who's publishing a book on shark attacks hardback and it was like sepia images of men with their ribs missing and bodies lying on the beach. And it's just like Christmas Day underneath the tree seeing the most horrific book you've ever read. And that's why I've got this profound fear of sharks. So Samuel doing this to me feels like absolutely not me.

You know the gun guy? Yeah. Who's meant to shoot the shark before the shark bites you to death? Yeah. Has that ever worked? Do they reassure people? Oh, it was fine. About three or four years ago, we were in the Caribbean, actually,

and there was a shark, and he tried to bite one of the lads, but we just blew its head off with a gun, and then it was fine, and there was no collateral damage, and no bullets sprayed anywhere, so we didn't want them to. No one got hurt in the crossfire. It was fine and there was no collateral damage. No bullets sprayed anywhere, so we didn't want them to. No one got hurt in the crossfire. It was absolutely fine. The shark made an appearance. We blew its head off and we carried on swimming.

This actually is close to a famous historical inaccuracy that I am aware of. You know the film Saving Private Ryan? The first scene where they're arriving on the beach on D-Day. And one of the things that gets pointed out is that that is inaccurate because bullets do not fly through water in the way they're depicted in that scene. So if you were to be if you were shooting, there's too much friction in the water

so if you were trying to shoot a shark if the shark is at a little bit of depth those bullets will not be hitting that shark. You need a decent headshot. Well, you need the shark to leap out of the sea like Free Willy and then just completely take it down. You've got to Free Willy it.

Anyway, would you fancy a bit of a palate cleanser? Shall we move on from that email to something slightly more cheery? Yes, please. As always, you guys have been sending in some brilliant suggestions for things that we could talk about on the show, if it's not minigunning a great white shark from the side of a ship. William Hall, who has suggested we might want to talk about ketchup. He says, I'm loving the show, but one little vignette of history that's worth looking into

is the evolution of tomato ketchup. Starting out as a fish-based condiment hundreds of years ago, that due to early storage techniques would routinely explode while being transported and was known to maim and even kill people. There you go. That's a bit of fun. Again. Yeah.

I love red sauce. Ketchup. It's the perfect accompaniment to chips, bacon, pretty much anything. I don't need it in my life enough to risk an exploding bottle. I think I'll go with mayo. Is that all right? I'll just have mayo on my BLT. That'll be fine.

Well, I've got an idea. What if, on tomato sauce, what if the listeners do the research for us? If you want to send us any tomato ketchup facts, we'd love to read them next week. And if you say it's got 57 different varieties, we know. Yeah.

All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh, what a time dot com. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh, what a time pod. Now clear off. OK, so what are we talking about today? I'm going to be talking about medieval Britain and the horror of the marriage ceremony and what happens afterwards, which somehow is even worse.

I'll be discussing marriage in ancient Rome. And I'll be discussing marriage in ancient Egypt, which is, to be honest, a bit incest-y. A bit cousin-heavy. I wanted to start this week with a real favourite passage about love and marriage, which comes from Catullus, a poet in Rome from the 1st century BC. Over a quarter of his poems were written about his girlfriend, I'm doing that in inverted commas, his girlfriend, Lesbia, who was already married. I think it just sums up the tragedy of love and marriage, really.

I hate and I love. You ask, perhaps, how can this be? I know not, but I feel it, and it is agony. One question. Was he quite an intense guy to know? Was he the bloke who walked into the pub and be like, Oh, great, cut, let's just see. Oh, God.

You all right, mate? Still feeling a combination of agony and ecstasy. Yeah, most of it. I bet he was constantly walking around with pieces of paper, just writing poems all the time. If you saw that guy in a Wetherspoons, you'd go, what a loser. They were the sort of big-budget romantic signings in sixth form, weren't they?

Those guys were the ones that got all the... That was what you wanted to be as a sixth former. Why on earth did I want to be brooding when I was 17? What on earth things want to... My son or my daughter, I don't think it's slightly different for girls, but if my son begins to brood at 17, I'll say, just keep your chin at me.

It's not a great look. I was so desperate to be even mildly attractive in sixth form. My mum once told me I had lovely eyes and I would make an effort to make my eyes as big as possible when I was walking around. How lame is that? So I would really stretch them open. So you see a lot of photos of me.

I look like I'm on pills. I'm really making my eyes massive because I thought this is what people find attractive so easy unfortunately I had a terrible track record with the opposite sex at school

and every time I'd go out on the piss as a 17, 18 year old when I was in 6th form on the Saturday night as I was about to go into town, my mum would always say, Oh, you look handsome. And every time I'd always say,

But the evidence suggests otherwise, doesn't it? What you're saying comes from a position of love. I need it to be evidence-based. And you haven't got any evidence. You can't take a note from your mum into a nightclub just to reassure people. No, no, no. Nesta says.

Exactly. I'm stuck with brooding now until university, when, if I've got anything about me, I will do a complete personality swap. My brother has a friend who went to his church. I'm not sure if this is true, but apparently it is true, who offered his wife a murriment on a flight, and she thought, he said, marry me. Will will you marry me and that is why they got married that is generally

what happened they're on a flight and she misheard it and then he was like well I might as well go along with it now and they've now got children and they are married they're very very happy but the initial thing was do you want a murrayment and that was literally and she said yes I thought you'd never ask I don't often have Murray Mints on me, but they help me to stop my ears from popping. You've made me the happiest woman alive. I've always wanted to try this. I've always wanted to try a Murray Mint.

I've dreamt of trying a Murray Mint since I was a little girl. It does suggest he was going down on one knee while offering the Murray Mint, though. So that's quite a strange way to offer someone a boiled sweet Is to go on one knee If he dropped a load of Murray Mints Went down to pick them up He was on one knee

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash businessplatinum. Ancient Rome. Now then, like much of Roman society, marriage was highly structured, but it was quite logical and there are parts of it, aspects of it, not all of it, obviously,

but aspects of it are relatively modern., not all of it, obviously, but aspects of it are relatively modern. It wasn't always romantic, though. It tended to be an agreement between families. So men would usually marry in their mid-twenties while women married while they were still in their early teens. So as they reached these ages, the parents would consult with friends to find suitable partners

that could improve the family's wealth or class. I mean, I'd say, Ellis, very briefly, you, as a 15-year-old, you're saying about your mum saying you're the most handsome person in the world. Do you think, how do you think it would have done for you if Nesta, at that point in your life, was finding you a wife? Do you think that would be...

Because obviously it puts an awful lot of... It puts an enormous amount of pressure on those early relationships. So most aristocratic women were married off in their mid-teens, and a woman who was not wed by 20 was considered a deviant. So if you've got to the ripe old age of 20 and you're not married, the Emperor Augustus formalised this.

He said, unmarried men are forbidden to receive inheritance and legacies. This disability begins for men at 25 years receive inheritance and legacies. This disability begins for men at 25 years of age and for women at 20 years of age. So obviously, put a huge amount

of pressure on that one-week relationship you have in year nine. That, that, you've got to get that right, man.

Oh my goodness me. Think about the pressure and the intensity of your crushes as you're 15. Yeah. I think if you'd asked me at 15, the girl I fancied who was in my class, would you marry her? I'd be like, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

She is the one for me. The way she sits next to that boy Adrian in maths and occasionally looks at me when she needs to borrow a protractor she is the woman i want to live with for the rest of my life yeah yeah absolutely at that point you saw you you also read into every interaction as so profoundly important and wonderful and then you analyse it afterwards. There was a girl in my sixth form... She wanted to borrow a set square today. Does that mean she fancies me more or less than after the protractor day?

Oh, my God. Well, I remember she once rang me about history homework, and I was so happy for, like... You really started ranking. What happened there is she's gone, who's the biggest nerd in the class? Yeah. Which loser's going to help me with my homework?

Oh, here we go. How dare you? I got, well, yeah. Actually, I'm now doing a history podcast. Yeah. She knew. And this is why I'm doing this podcast, in a desperate attempt to get back with.

Oh, yeah. But you're right. There's so much pressure attached to that. But one thing I was thinking is like, yeah, there's a pressure to get kind of married at probably 15 years of age, but you're also probably dead at 40. So like, if you divide your life,

that is actually, you probably need to be getting married at 15 because there's not much coming after this. The average first marriage in ancient Rome lasted for about 14 years, and the most frequent reason behind its ending was death. The high mortality rate would not be unusual for people to marry more than once. So, you're in love with a girl in year 9,

she sits next to a boy you know in maths, you lend her a protractor or a set square, whichever is the sexiest piece of mathematical apparatus. She says yes. Your mum and her mum get together at the school gates and agree that it's on. You're married.

In 14 years' time, all being well, she's died. You get another go at it. By that point in your late 20s, you know yourself a little bit more. You've been in a long-term relationship. That is the ideal scenario. A widow at 28. Obviously, like lots of ancient civilisations, the rules around adultery...

I mean, especially the women, it's rules that, to modern eyes, look crazy. It's been held that women convicted of adultery should be punished for the loss of half of their dowry and the third of their goods and by relegation to an island. The adulterer, however, shall be deprived of half his property and

shall also be punished by relegation to an island provided the parties are exiled to different islands. You don't necessarily need to say island. I can't reiterate enough. Our punishment is you two off to a tropical island. You two shaggers are off to a tropical island. You two shaggers are off to a tropical island.

Augustus himself was obliged to invoke the law against his own daughter Julia and relegated her to the island of Pandateria. Wow. Now this I found really interesting. Tombstones record some qualities and traits that were deemed positive in the Roman period. Some of the most common positive attributes used by husbands to describe their deceased wives include chaste, obedient, friendly, old-fashioned, frugal, content to stay at home, pious, dressed simply,

good at spinning thread and good at weaving cloth. Imagine that. That's a headline on your tombstone. What did you love most about your wife? Well, God, hard to say, really. She was old-fashioned and she was good at spinning thread. So, in the early Republic, you couldn't marry anyone closer than your second cousin

Which I think They've got that one right in my opinion By the first century CE You could marry your brother's daughter, niece to uncle That was absolutely fine Oh my goodness However you couldn't marry persons associated with unsavoury occupations

I.e. prostitution Acting and tavern keeping. So if you married your niece, that was all right. If you married someone who'd gone to drama school, people are like, oh, you dirty bastard. Or running a sports bar. That'd even be... If you married someone who ran a walkabout

that was very accessible to big groups and stags yeah you're like oh jeez why don't you just be normal and marry a niece I tell you what if you're an out of work actor working behind the bar at a tavern you are the lowest of the low

you are scum my dad that attitude he fitted in Lowest of the low. You are scum. Yeah. My dad, that attitude, he fitted in quite well in ancient Rome in that case. Because my brother Michael was once in a primary school nativity play. And playing, not even the lead, I think he was the innkeeper. Yeah. And he came off stage at the end at the age of nine. And my dad went up to him and said, don't get any funny ideas about becoming an actor.

Oh, wow. Sure, you smashed it as the innkeeper just now. So my dad would absolutely have applauded that approach. Just concentrate on getting some very normal ideas about marrying an umptie. I'm starting to think that I wouldn't have enjoyed living in ancient Rome. You get this idea of ancient Rome in the movies and stuff,

which feels quite exciting, and sort of fountains of wine and all this sort of stuff. Yeah, and platters. They've cut out that sort of niece-dating business from Gladiator. That doesn't really come in much. Like everything, though. And I remember having this discussion

when I was a history student, actually, sort of with my housemates. At any time, if you could be sort of airdropped into any period in history, it is always much, much better if you're rich. Yeah. If you're rich, it would be so much better than often a couple of hundred years in the future if you're poor. And I think, it was I think if

you were well off in ancient Rome it must have been alright what I think we would all find difficult is that they were such strict power structures and it was such an ordered society and you couldn't really I think it's seemingly quite difficult

to deviate from that stuff which I would find difficult but you know I was a brooding 17 year old who wrote very bad I think it's seemingly quite difficult to deviate from that stuff, which I would find difficult. But, you know, I was a brooding 17-year-old who wrote very bad poetry to impress girls in regional nightclubs, so make them know what you do. Yeah, Ellis, as I found when I was reading about the medieval England, as I will talk about later, it does feel one of the things about the rich-poor divide when it comes to marriage, and it seems similar in Rome,

is that basically poorer people tended to marry for love more than the rich yeah it seems often the rich are kind of marrying for status for continued financial security whatever happened to be it's like that scene in the Titanic when they're sort of having a lovely time and swinging around genuinely like each other where upstairs it's kind of it all genuinely like each other upstairs it's all forced it's all done for money I mean if you're if you're poor in medieval Wessex

and you quite fancy a girl and she quite fancies you and it's all you've got to offer her is a turnip and she says well I've got half an onion you're like

sod it yeah oh that'll do that'll do I've got two turnips you've got a carrot let's stick them together and have a laugh

come on we're not above that look everyone gather round we'll have a laugh and then we'll make some soup I mean there were over 50 Roman deities that were in some way involved in the reproductive process.

So, Liber, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, who was the god of wine and semen. How did he get that portfolio? Whose temples were signified by a phallus. Say that again, what was that? His temples were signified by a phallus. They loved that in ancient Rome, didn't they? Every pot's got a big old knob on it.

Come on, guys, can you not draw something else? Like the front of a soft schoolboy's jotter. Do you know what I love? Yes, that's constantly. Do you know what I love? I have visited cathedrals and monasteries where there is carved graffiti from occasionally hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And I love that. There's something about it that I find so compelling

where it would be some teenager got, you know know a chisel and decided to carve 1718 into a wall which must have taken him or her absolutely ages as well yeah and they often they do little sort of cocks and balls just like you would on your school desk yeah it's so weird well i guess like that it's such a it's such a fundamental it's so weird. I guess it's such a fundamental... It's deep in there, isn't it? It's innate to draw a cock and boys. And that has been the case for hundreds of years. Well, look at the guy...

What's that huge guy on the side of that hill? What's he called? The guy with the big erection. Yeah, that guy. I'm sure that's not his actual official title, but... We're going on a school trip to see the guy with the big erection. The guy who started drawing that and then like when his mates came over

I'm going to draw this guy with a massive knob they must have just cracked up what do you reckon which part Chris do you reckon he started with when you're looking for it you're living in the village at the bottom of the hill and you're looking up the first two days is it just a cock and bull?

And then he does the rest of it. Or maybe he started drawing a nice face, the nice legs. And the villagers are like, this is quality. This is really coming along. Quality. And then overnight on the last night, when everyone's gone to bed, I'll get the cock done now. And the villagers go, what is this?

It's the Cairn Abbas Giant. It's a hill figure. I think it's Cairn. I hope it's not CERN. Anyway, it's in Dorset. 55 metres high. Depicts a standing nude male with a prominent erection and wielding a large club in his right hand.

Yeah, it's back filled with short rubble. I've never thought about that, actually, Ellis. Very briefly, what is the situation that's depicting? Why has he got a club and a boner? What's happening? There's lots of different... I mean, I'm just Googling it, and there are lots of different interpretations

as to why he's standing there naked with a big club. I mean, fertility is the most well-known one. Yes, yeah. I have one final question about that. The guy on the hill. Do you think it affected property prices in the area? Do you know what? I think it really, really depends on the buyer.

It's either going to be a case of, right, we're leaving, or we'll take it. No one is sort of ambivalent or indifferent. At the end of the day, the estate agent's like, we're never going to shift this. And then you see the garden gate open, and in comes a man who's naked with an erection holding a club

here you go we found our buyer well we touched on some notes of incest there and if you like incest then jump in the DeLorean let's head back to ancient Egypt

because boy have I got some stories for you. You know, the majority of girls in ancient Egypt got married between 12 and 13. And boys are typically a year or two older. Average life expectancy in ancient Egypt, 36. Bloody hell. Wow. That's mad, isn't it?

So we're all dead. We're all dead. Long dead. Wow. It's crazy. So the distinctive feature, I would say, about marriage in ancient Egypt is, of course, that there was no rules against the union of close relatives, brothers and sisters, in love songs in ancient Egypt. The words brother and sister have the same significance as husband and wife.

Oh, dear. There was none of the common horror of incest. Not only was the brother permitted to marry his sister, but it was customary. Oh my god. I've got two sisters. One of them's there. Are you that going to cut?

What a rift. You've got a choice. You've got a choice. Oh dear, dear, dear. And also the one thing I didn't realise was that I assumed in ancient Egypt it was just the nobility, but it wasn't. It was the most suitable type of marriage between brothers and sisters of all ranks of society. Yeah. So everyone is at it. I've got enormous questions about the implications in terms of children.

Yeah. Well, have you ever seen Tutankhamun? They did a reconstruction i saw in some documentary he had a disproportionately massive arse he had like an underbite and all of this was the result of incest like generational wow what's kind of interesting about that is you think the royal family that would have been you could see that sort of preservation of power that's about maintaining the control within your bloodline all that sort of stuff and not letting others in that's exactly what it is

i've googled the rendering the real face of king yeah from the bbc documentary uh toon khamun the truth uncovered and you're right chris i mean he's he mean he's not a good looking guy seen by modern by conventional modern standards but his sister thought he was very handsome, so it was alright goodness me King Tutankhamun died young as well and you look at him

when they kind of recreate what he would have looked at and you go yes, there is no way that guy is living very long I had no idea generations of inbreeding finally incest gets a bad press someone's saying it um and their gods actually they got like osiris married his sister like it was so such a central part of of their kind of society that crazy really but

interestingly scholars say that their domestic lives were very happy egyptian women would share the work and recreation of their husbands they would go on with their husbands on hunting and fishing expeditions there's lots of drawn scenes of husbands and wives entertainings really common um i don't think any of this makes up for the fact you're having to marry a sister. No. I do think that's... I get to go on the odd fishing trip, but I'm marrying my sister. That's not enough of a... What's interesting about Egyptian culture as well is the harem.

It was a really accepted part of Egyptian culture. So a man who could afford it would have a number of female household slaves who as a matter of course became part of his harem. There was no moral issue involved. His right to them was accepted, but he would only have one woman as his legitimate wife. Right, you've got to think about her role in all this. Her feelings. I mean, I can't believe i'm saying this but having met in the in the in the late 80s right when they brought in

compulsory seat belt wearing having seen the fuss people made about that and yet it was it was obviously it was a legal requirement to wear a seatbelt. You get old men saying, oh, you'll never catch me wearing a seatbelt. The old, yeah, it's fine that my husband can have sex with who he wants because that's an accepted part of society. And you'd be sitting there thinking, you fucking Jesus, he's at it again

with someone who isn't related to the dirty old side. Disgusting! Get in your way related. You're not even related from a different town disgusting so how many people would be in the Harim then

well Pharaoh Ramesses II had 48 to 50 sons and 40 to 53 daughters oh my goodness I find two children a lot to deal with yes although do you was he was he getting was he doing the early wake up with all 70 of them do you think or was he kind of and this is also this is this is pre uh sort of ci you know there's no mr tumble and all that sort of stuff back there. Yes, what are you doing? You're up with them and you're entertaining them.

Do you want to look at some hieroglyphics? Exactly. Come look at the hieroglyphics. Do you don't want to watch the hieroglyphics? Right, I'm out. Also, the state of the hand-me-downs for child number 70 as well. By the time the clothes get down to him. Decades out of fashion.

Typical youngest child of 70. Well, I was the fourth child And there was a huge age gap between me and my brothers So you talk about fashion changing Pictures of me as a child Everyone else in my class Is dressed in shell suits and stuff In the 80s or 60s

I'm in these wide flares Both from a different generation My youngest brother was 15 years older than me That's amazing. So I have all these old clothes. Once at school, I found a coin in my pocket that was no longer legal tender. It'd been out of circulation for like 12 years. How, yeah, being one of 70 children, trying to get a bit of time with your parents

Some kind of feeling Trying to get a piece of quiet in the house Having your parents remember your name Is going to be a struggle I don't think I know 70 people's names You know that I do this thing though I am like a parent in an 80s sitcom

Where I want to say Izzy, but I'll go through everyone else in the house's name first before I get to Izzy. Stefan, Betty, Izzy, sorry. Imagine doing that with 70 kids. Impossible. Tony, Rachel, Terry, Malcolm, Graham, Colin, Philip. Yeah.

All those classic Egyptian names. Terry. all those classic Egyptian names Terry imagine the Christmas they're rapping on Christmas Eve oh my god

so huge harems loads of children and you're married to your sister this is the Egyptian approach also you do that funny walk

wherever you walk as well yeah that's part of the course well that's the incest isn't it it's the club foot yeah they can't actually

remove themselves from that position at any time reversed elbows and wrists god those birds they made fantastic waiters though

didn't they you could put a tray on each hand so um so i've been reading about marriage in medieval england uh which for those who don't know sort of ran from the end of the fifth century to the start of the early modern period which is 1485 and it's kind of interesting because it's a period when official marriage became sacred and sort of modern wedding rituals and traditions we have today first appeared and also it's interesting because it's completely insane so it's it's mad what happened so in early medieval england sort of like initially marriage wasn't

like it wasn't like a religious affair so you could get married anywhere uh like in the in the road in the pub at your mate's house this is what people used to do wherever you wanted you didn't need witnesses either you didn't need a priest you just needed all you needed to do was give your consent so people say do you want to get married you go yeah and then you just if you both wanted to do it then it could just happen then and there if you agree it's done that's literally all it was you're getting married in in the road without having to have any witnesses seems quite uh convenient i quite i quite like yeah i think i think i think the medieval english have got something right planning a wedding is quite stressful as well it's expensive yeah it's

really fun the day was really fun I got married as you say you were both there about a month and a half ago I really loved it but it's a lot of work a lot of work

couldn't have just done it in the street exactly and you don't even need a priest you just need to say do you want to do it and they say yes could have done it

outside Superdrug so this is what people used to do in the early medieval period they'd just say do you want to get married or they maybe have a couple of people there to do they pre in the early medieval period they just say do you want to get married or they maybe have a couple of people there but often they just wouldn't bother they wouldn't have anyone it would just be an agreement between two people but the issue with this is it caused problems if at a later date one of them claimed it never happened oh but that means every marriage has a like aout clause, because you can just deny it.

Exactly, which is why in the 12th century, the church made it a holy sacrament that had to be observed by God. So basically the game changed at that point, because people were constantly trying to get out of marriages. Married, no. Oh, I can just say no. Lived with you for 18 years. Three kids together, 20 years.

No, we're not. Because no one in Halfords heard us agree to get married that afternoon last week. You can just sort of claim... Find someone who stood outside St. Dundare on that day 18 years ago and saw us do it. So, in medieval times, as we discussed earlier, the lower classes, often they married for love. The wealthiest we talked about in Rome, they sort of married for money and power. And by extension of that, actually, wealthy medieval children were often betrothed in infancy.

So you would have a child and you would decide what other baby you want your baby to get married to. My son is four. He's not ready to settle down. Would have a child and you would decide what other baby you want your baby to get married to. My son is four. Yeah. He's not ready to settle down. Would he be a good husband? No, he's so into cars. He's quite a single issue conversationist.

And it was, you know, it was cars. It's been cars this month. It was eggs last month, and it was ducks the month before that. So he doesn't even know himself. He's certainly not ready to settle down. I find that idea quite appealing, where it's like, I don't need to do any of the legwork to find a wife. Someone is going to go out and do it for me and i'll just turn up well you'd hope

you'd hope it would be your parent this is the issue though chris so it wouldn't necessarily be someone who is looking for the right baby and has your interests at heart because if your father died and he hadn't arranged marriages for you for his children it then became the responsibility of the landlord in the area you lived it was his responsibility to find you a suitable partner as a child, basically, for when you grew of age. And he's got binders to not fix. Yeah, exactly. He's got a lot of stuff on.

My first house in Cardiff, Ellis, I don't know if I knew you then, when I moved in, my room was up in the roof, and they hadn't finished building the roof. It was just black bin bags across the... And that was like that for like a month and a half. And the idea that that man would be finding me... A man who couldn't finish a roof isn't going to really be the person that... Could actually let me lie in it.

Or animals try to get in and could get in if they really pushed it. Yeah. It was the landlord's responsibility. And also they would often profit because they would sell off your marriage rights, basically. Bloody landlords, man. Exactly, yeah.

Landlords from hell. And then at the wedding, things got sort of even weirder in medieval Britain. First of all, you had the best man. The best man isn't what he is today. You know, goes and gives a funny speech. Oh, guys, this is a great stag. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Great medieval stag.

Your options are the tavern. Yeah. I'll go, I mean. It's all you need. We're going to the tavern. Yeah. I'll get him in. It's only mead. We're going to the tavern. Two villages over. We're staying over three nights. Different postcode.

Obviously, if it does kick off, big group of lads in a different village, it's the kind of thing that turns up and we will get boiling oil poured over us. I've booked us in with some archery. boiling oil poured over us so i've booked us in with some archery uh and you say well thank goodness isn't paintball that's the only thing the so the best man it was the person you choose would be the best swordsman uh you knew because it was their job to fend off the bride's angry family if they didn't approve

or if someone tried to steal your bride now i don't know if you've ever been a best man, but that was your job. You were given a sword and it was your responsibility to fight anyone that had a problem with the wedding, basically. That's a stitch-up. That's a stitch-up if you know you're going to have a battle on your hands. It's the yes-yes

to do that now. In that sort of scenario as well, you probably don't even like the bride. Also, as a best man, you've got to weigh up how hard are the bride's family? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Well, I think in my mind,

medieval time, basically everyone was hard. In my mind, that's what it is because it's such a tough existence back then. I don't think people were... I think it was just naturally in your character surely wasn't it that fighting was such a way of life yeah i guess like that's evolution

isn't it you're it's just hard people are just the ones who have survived so everyone's gonna be hard i think basically any anyone who lived pre-central heating is hard yeah i agree i do feel that compared to me. But things weren't easy for the bride either at the wedding. So the maddest thing that happened at the wedding is the bride's dress was associated with good luck. And often at the end of the wedding, the entire congregation would chase her and try and rip bits of the dress off her. Ideally, the garter, because the garter was the thing you wanted,

and apparently if you handed that to your lady, it would mean you would then go on to have a successful and faithful marriage. I hate to bring sport into this, but at the end of the 1970 World Cup final, fans get on the pitch and they're stripping the Brazilian players for souvenirs. And I can't remember who it is. It's someone like Jairzinho. They get off his socks,

his shirt and his shorts and he's shitting himself because they're going for his pants. And he's fighting with them because he doesn't... That's my friend Mike, buddy. He doesn't want to show his knob to a TV audience of a billion people.

Oh, that's the stuff of nightmares. The stuff absolute nightmares. She's being stripped by feral football fans in front of a TV audience of a billion people. Get off me, get off me, get off me, get off me. That is so anxiety-inducing. As a bride, knowing you've got that moment ahead of you all through your wedding day, when does it stop?

Is there a formal beginning to the chase? This would be after the wedding celebration, basically, and before you go to your marital bed. She's full of cake and pissed. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. It's just after the speech is over, basically. The final of cake and pissed. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. It's just after the speech is over, basically. The final speech ends with three, two, one, go.

And then she sort of just sprints. But people say this is where the tossing of the garter comes from, because one of the feelings is it might have been that, basically, you toss your garter away to try and make the crowd run off in a different direction briefly so you can get away. So this is possibly where that idea came

from i mean surely you absolutely if i was a bride heading towards that i'd go into an intense period of training oh yeah i'd be on the track every morning for about six months walking down the island spikes The congregation going, oh, God, look at those calves. Yeah, yeah. It's very odd. First of all, micro wedding dress completely clinging to me so I'm as aerodynamic as possible. Why is she dressed like Flojo?

But it was completely acceptable to be quite aggressive about this, and part of that is they thought it sort of helped to whip them up into a bit of a fervor ahead of consummating their their marriage so there's also this idea that it was all right to be quite rough and really just tear huge parts of the wedding dress away so this is what happened during the service it wasn't kind of particularly dignified either for for the bride and one of the things that often happened in medieval weddings the father of the bride would give one for the bride. One of the things that often happened in medieval weddings, the father of the bride would give one of the bride's shoes to the groom, who would then tap her on the head with the shoe as a show of authority.

I don't know what that is. As a show of authority. You don't need to do that. Someone tapping you on the head with a shoe. I think that's the least dignified thing you can do to someone. Also, it's medieval Britain, so that shoe is covered in shit. Yeah, and it's made of wood. It's a clog.

It's like being hit on the head with a mallet. I was born in 1980. And I don't think I'm cut out for society prior to about 1978. Yes. It just all sounds nuts this next bit is the worst bit of all this is a bit that i think you'll agree none of us or anyone would enjoy most um much which is that when marriage became a holy sacrament it became very important it was consummated uh so after the ceremony, the congregation would follow the couple to their marital bed and either stay outside

or often come in and gather around and watch them consummate the marriage. Oh my God. Now, the idea being it was proof. If it ever came up that it was consummated, they could say, say well we have witnesses we have 40 witnesses

we have 40 witnesses that thing man so people would gather around the bed some of the family would lift the groom in

other friends would lift the bride in and then they'd sort of like start cheering and they'd kind of they'd lose their virginity in front of 40 people

oh my god too shy for that. Yeah. How do you think you'd manage in that situation? And would it affect who you invited to your wedding? Yeah, no family. I think I'd be no family. We're doing no family for this wedding.

I'd have to say, I'm so sorry, Mum. You can't. No. We'll have a nice meal. We'll go to the tavern. We'll have a nice meal. And, you know, we'll spend time together. But this isn't for you.

All the photographs, they'll all get put on Facebook. They're for you to keep. But this bit is not for you. Yeah. So the stress of it all yeah with that situation you think everything is awful but it's not all bad because if your marriage in the 13th century then lasted a year after that point you would be given uh as a as a well done you'd be given a slab of bacon that was me so it's not all bad so this tradition has been traced back to this guy called

lord fitzwalter in the reign of henry iii who ordered that whatever married man did not repent of his marriage or quarrel with his wife and a year and a day after it should go to the priory and demand bacon uh on his on his swearing to the truth kneeling on two stones in the churchyard so you'd have to go to the uh theory, tell them that your marriage is going well, and then they'd give you some bacon. No wonder the fry-up still has such a totemic impact on British culture and society. This is why I think living in this day and age is the best,

because that little bit of bacon you have in your breakfast, that was the best part of your life in medieval Britain. That was a treat, the bacon. And that is just one little aspect of modern life. It's still quite high up there for me, to be honest. I think bacon with a fry-up is still pretty high up. Yeah, it is. Yeah, bacon and Wi-Fi.

Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't get much better than that. But you had to be honest about how your marriage was going to get the bacon which suggested they're just like the people who work in the party are just real gossips they're kind of i i'd give more bacon if you told the truth about how things were going if you if you listed the top three things your partner did that really annoy you then you get loads of bacon. I want the good stuff.

I want what's the most embarrassing thing she's done in the last year. Oh, that's funny. And the more you give, the more bacon you get. People making up stories. Waking up in the middle of the night really thirsty because you've just got an entirely bacon-orientated diet.

So much salt. Because of all the fabulous gossip about your wife that you furnished the bacon man with. Going down every morning to add more. You come home with the bacon and the wife says, what have you told them to get that much bacon? Yeah. So this is what would happen if it's going well.

You'd get your bacon. If it wasn't going well, it's sort of tricky in medieval England because divorce wasn't an option, only annulment. That's all you had. Annulment was really expensive and only permissible for a few reasons, which were adultery, leprosy and impotency was one of the major ones uh do you guys want to guess how that how they tested understandable in these scenarios yeah absolutely if you're failing to perform in front of your family and at what point does the the impotence clause start getting widely discussed in that room? How is that not normal?

Would you like to fail to get a hard on in front of your mum and dad? And your sarcastic brother? The bride's father came, well, we've always got the impotency get out, so this is fine. Well, would you like to guess how they tested for the impotence how they tested for impotency because that was also pretty undignified yeah yeah it was something called a bedroom trial and court cases in the 14th century show that bedroom trials took place to check if impotence was true and if the marriage continued so the husband and wife would be placed in a room and they'd be watched by a group of wise women for several nights to see if the man could muster an erection.

Oh, dear. What? Just watched? Yeah, so, and they would fondle, they'd, like, you know, poke it and do things like this, whatever. What if you're not in the water? Well, and if nothing happened, after a few days they'd go, oh, yes, you are impotent.

He's poked by some strange woman you don't know. Well, either strangers or weirdly, the only person who wasn't a stranger was the groom's grandmother. Which I would say was the one name you didn't want to hear. That was what happened in England.

Final thing, I would say that I think things were much worse in germany though um well how there was well it's you may disagree but i think this is pretty horrific there was german law in medieval times allowed for marital disputes let's say you wanted divorce or it's a big argument about something like that to be settled in the ring but they had

very specific rules on the way this was done so the wife was allowed a cloth sack which contained three rocks

like the worst visit from Santa ever and you which he would use to whack the husband the husband was allowed three clubs okay now you think a club's better than a rock isn't it in a in a in a sack the only other thing is the husband also had to stand in a three foot wide hole that'd be dug into the ground with one hand tied behind his back and if he ever touched the edge of the pit with his hand or his arm he then had to surrender one of the back and if he ever touched the edge of the pit with his hand or his arm he then had to surrender one of the clubs so every time he touched the side of the hole he'd lose one of his clubs so the wife would run around the edge of the perimeter whacking him

while he would swing at her with his club and not try and touch the perimeter of the uh of the thing um and at the end of it uh often the loser would be put to death so the man would be put to death or the woman the wife, if she lost she would be buried alive so it wasn't an ideal end to things but it did sort of wrap things up if you were

looking to knock things on the head, if you were going to have some kind of answer, one of you was going to be single Do you know what it offers? Closure Closure, exactly it would make you want to resolve any uh arguments you had though wouldn't it with your partner yeah you knew that's where it's heading that's a lot of pressure on that first meeting at relate yeah we've got to get this right but you wouldn't let petty you wouldn't let petty things fester would you Got to get this right. But you wouldn't let petty things fester, would you?

If it was sort of like an argument about hanging up the washing or whatever. Unless you were very good at hitting people with rocks. In which case you thought, yeah, I'm just going to let him annoy me. And I will settle this once and for all. So that's married life in the past, then. What are we thinking? None of those are great options. No? No.

Which era are we thinking we go for? They all seem horrendous. I don't want to marry my sister. I don't have a sister. So I think I'm going to knock ancient Egypt on the head. That feels like one I really don't want to do that. Being rich seems to be the number one priority. As ever.

As ever. Yep. Ancient Rome, good climate. You've got the weather. You've got the wine. You've got the weather. Yeah, that is true. And central heating in the winter.

And although it is quite an ordered society, you know, it's kind of like you know where you stand with it all. I mean, Egypt sounds horrific as does medieval England. Yeah. Medieval England just feels

humiliating. I think it's... I think almost it's little things like the tapping of the head with a shoe I don't need that to amaze me humanity's capacity for cruelty and

humiliation absolutely even on your wedding day building that in the one day you think I'm probably not going to be humiliated today. This is my day. They always said it was going to be my day. Next thing you know, you're getting chased around

and someone's trying to tear a garter from your leg. The medieval wedding, it's like they've created the worst day possible for the bride. Haven't they? She's getting tapped on the head with a shoe, chased out of the room and her clothes ripped off, and then... They just have sex in front of Uncle Tony.

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