Oh What A Time... - #52 Folk Festivals (Part 2)

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed from yesterday! This week we’re darting around folk festivals from history to learn their strange traditions; we’ll be heading to Lincolnshire to learn about the Haxey Hood, to Gloucester for the Cheese Rolling and finally off to America to learn of the once enormously popular phenomenon of Horse Diving. And was telly better when it ended around midnight and signed off with the national anthem? The answer is yes, so don’t add to that debate. But if you’ve got anything else you can email: [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - two bonus episodes every month! - ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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you will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue. York You. Hello and welcome to Part 2. This is folk festivals. Part one was yesterday. Let's crack on with it. Now there was some footage that came out a few years ago. I mean it shocked everyone who saw it. It was of the royal Shrove Tide football. Now there was some footage that came out a few years ago. I mean it shocked, it

shocked everyone who saw it. It was of the Royal Shrove Tide football, which is a game of medieval football, played in Ashbourne in Derbyshire. Now I've been aware of medieval football for quite a long time. The BBC did a documentary called Kicking and Screaming which is about the history of football but it didn't start with like you know the formation about the history of football. But it didn't start with like, you know, the formation of the FAA and football being codified in the 18, in 1863. It was, they started with the sort of medieval versions of the sport, and they showed a version of medieval football that was being played in Scotland, I think, it was like the yuppies and the Dunez and they do one in Cumbria. There's a West West we's was a we's was a we're was a we're the we're the we're the we're the we're the we're the we're the west we're the west w. There's a west w. There's a west w. There's a west wes. There's a west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west in Cumbria. There's a West Whalian version called Knappan that

I remember seeing on the news in the 1980s. I don't know if it's still happening. I wouldn't be surprised if it still was, but the one I'm going to be talking about is the one that happens in the Lincolnshire village of Haxie because it comes alive in January each year. Normally on 12th night. in Lincolnshire and they play Haxie Hood. Now it's essentially a variant of folk football and it's... When you say 12th Night, do you mean the 12th Night of Christmas? That would say? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they reckon it's been going for about 700 years. There are newspaper accounts from at least the 1830s and those describe it as a custom of some age. There's a description published in 1815 which marks on the prize. The first person who can convey it, that's the hood, into the seller of any public house

receives a reward of one shilling. Now all these games, they all vary in their own sort of unique ways. Now I think the difference with the one that happened in Ashbourne in Darbership was that it was so violent. So I will never forget seeing a bloke in a high-vis jacket wearing work boots, kicking someone's head in outside super drug. It is an absolutely... It's so violent that was so violent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're just stomp in some poor blooms. And they're both having a great time. It's covered in blood outside Santander. Like the extent to which is just like it's like, their, their, their, thia, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, was, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thiiiiiiiii, is thi, they. So, they. So, their, their, is their, is thi The extent to which is just like it's allowed. Like there's people in high visits just going, yep, yeah, yeah, this is what this is. It genuinely is. It is mind-boggling that one. So the hood refers to, it refers to a ball.

Usually it is a ball. The different, and often they're quite, they're sort of quite big ornamental leather balls. Oh, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, this is, this is, this is, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, th. It, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, their, thre. Yeah, threrea. Yeah, theree. Yeah, theree. Yeah, theree. Yeah, theree. Yeah, there. It. the hood is a rolled up leather tube, right? So you've got to move the rolled up leather tube, the hood, to one of four pubs, which are stand-ins for the four villages, okay? Because it's, the four villages take part. So whichever team succeeds in moving the scrum. And I was watching on YouTube last night, there's often like 130, 140 people involved in this scrum and the scrum is known as the sway.

Whoever moves the scrum to its pub gets to keep... I could see myself by the way, Ellis at the back of that scrum making the noises of someone who's involved in the scum. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I'd be at the back going, ah! Come on. Come on. Pledge, let's the sc. the sc. the sclip, the sclip, to, to, to, the sclue. to, to, to, the sclue. to, to, the sclue. the sclue. the scrum, the scrum, the scrum, the scum, the scum, the scrum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum the scum the scum, the scruum. to move to move to move to move to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the scrum, the scum. the scum, to the scum, tooom, the scum, th. thum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum, the scum. the scum. the scum. tooom, tooom, to move the scrum to their pub, they then get to keep the hood this leather tube for a year. The hood is then doused in ale and it's hung up until New Year's Eve. Right. So this is an account published from 1858. There is usually a great concourse of people from the neighboring villages and when the hood is thrown up by the chief of the bog-ins or by the officials, it becomes the object of

the villages to get the hood to their own village by throwing or kicking it, similar to the football, the other eleven men called Bogins being stationed at the corners and sides of the field to prevent, if possible, it being thrown out. I'll tell you what, there's going to be one hard pub that's, that's, the pub, that every year. And there'll be a there'll be a hipster wine bar that hasn't had a a there'll be a wine bar that hasn't had a look in in about 200 years hasn't come close. There's the pub there's the pub with the Michelin Star and they lose every year. They've been getting absolutely hammered since it was taken over by new owners about 30 years. They do a great Sunday dinner they haven't had the hood in their pub since like the 1960s. You look through midweek through the window everyone's got their mapbooks out it's that sort of place.

So people having creative working lunches. Yeah, they are not getting the hood at all. If there's a lot of people drinking Lucky Saint in there, you're like, all right, we're in trouble. One with a short board that says sky sports sports that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's their sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports one that's getting the hook. That's the calling Premier and has got a flat roof. If the pub has got a flat roof, they are going to win this game. Now there are several characters in the game. And I'm really interested in like medieval folk football. I've watched the one in Scotland, I've watched the one in Cumbri or online.

I've watched the West Wessen and crapan. I find it really really really really really really really really really really the the the the the the wa the wa the West the West the West the West the West the West the west the west the west the west the west the west the west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west.. the west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west west. the west west west west west west west west. the west west west. the west west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west of. the west of. the west of. the west of. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the west. the West Wainianian Krapan, I find it really interesting. What differentiates the Haxi Hood from the others is that there are characters, right? All of whom wear a particular costume. Now the Lord is dressed in red hunting coat and a top hat that's decorated with flowers and badges and he will carry a staff made of 13 willow wands. What? Yes. So by the way, very briefly, not even the one, the one's not the thing is attracting me. Keeping a top hat on during that is going to be an absolute night. They don't get involved in the scrum. Oh, they're not. They're not in the scrum. So, and then you've got the fool. Now the fool is dressed in multi-colored material. His hat and decorated with flowers and rages and his face is covered with soot, which I must admit made me do a double take, and he carries a whip, right?

The fool was what I was in the country, I don't remember this, in my country dancing troupe. I was the fool, not with a soot, but I was I was in the full, I was the full in primary school. So I've played that role. Sometimes you say things that are so perfect. I don't even know where to take it. Yeah, so I've played that role many times during my West Country children. Okay, the chief of the boggins is dressed in red hunting coat and top hat decorated with flowers and badges and then the boggins, they're distinguished by their red jumpers originally called plow bogins. Now 19... Can I just say at this point, this is so lame.

Like I put, it's so much better. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but having a tear up outside Santander is so much more grown up than this. The fool is the person who seems to start it. So, so I was watching it last night and they all shout out, Hoose again, Hoose, Tune again, Tune, Tune, tune, tune, if thou meet's a man, knock him soon, but don't hurt him.

So it basically means, House against town, if you meet a man, knock him down, but don't hurt him. It feels like, but don't hurt him. It's been stuck for legal reasons, isn't it? They th, isn't, isn't, legal reasons, isn't it? They're protected, should it go to court? We did say, but don't hurt him. Just to be clear, I will refer you to a sentence-infor. I hate you when the lawyers get involved. Yeah, you do need to add this for legal reason.

It's the equivalent of a stand-up comic being told that they're not allowed to wear branding on tally. You're like, oh, but this is my lucky gig shirt. Sorry, mate. You're, it's because of the unique way the BBC is funded. You've got to say, but don't hurt him, because we've had so many deaths. You say it's lame by the way, Chris. Are you saying that football in its current incarnation incarnation incarnation would not be improved by one of the players the players the players wearing a top hat, to the centre backs dressers as boggings or whatever they are and some of being the centre midfield is dressed as a fool. Are you saying that wouldn't improve the game?

I mean if... Of course you'd take that. Also, if you were having a bad game, can you imagine? Like if Harry Maguire was having a bad game for England and he was thinking to himself, God I'm dressed as the fucking fool here. Now then, 19th century antiquarians related the Haxi Hood to its summer equivalent, the Haxi Midsummer Festival, which is more like a usual fair or summer wake and held on the 6th of July every year. It was these writers who were at pains to explain the customs to outsiders, define common origins for the mythology and to justify what was going on. So clues lay in the songs in the songs the songs the songs the songs the songs the songs the songs the songs the the the the the the the the the their their their their. their. their. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. Wea. 19 toe. toe. I. 19. 19. 19. I. I. I. I. I toe. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to. to. to. te. te. te. te. I'm. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. t justify what was going on. So Clues lay in the song sung in the pre-mat rituals, the Farmers Boy, John Barley Corn, drink old England dry. Now the last of these three songs dates from the Napoleonic Wars. John Barley Corn emerged as a

character in the mid 16th century. Tom obviously singing about him in the early 90s. And the farmer's boy was published in 1832 though it was probably older and said to a melody the melody the early 90s. And the farmers boy was published in 1832 that was probably older and said to a melody that was also from the time of Napoleon. That's obviously an injection of wartime feeling and it sort of prefigured what happened after the First World War when the historian Katrone Parrot noted, the survival of the hood seemed in doubt. So she said the widespread deeply held fears about cultural destruction that the war provoked and the need to recover from and sanctify the savage loss of life once the war was over, made the renewal of older ways of being and doing, it was a very compelling idea in the 20s and 30s. So the Great War was exactly the right event at the right moment in history for

keeping the hood safe. So it's interesting because of the because of the dislocation of the Great War, people look back on their old traditions and thought, actually, these are really important. And if you look around now, there's a sort of similar surge in interest in folk-grown tradition, even if the traditions invented. After the sort of, you know, the upeavals of austerity in the pandemic, I was in a pub in D.. And, the, the, t... And, the, t. And, the, the, t. And, t. And, the, the, tod. And, the, the, tod, the, tod, today, today, today, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, and, the, and, the, the, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, and, and, and, and, the, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, their.a, their. And, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they.a, today, they.a, they.a, they.a, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the pandemic, I was in a pub in Derbyshire last summer and there was Lozen Morris dancing. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. It was in a pub called the Barley Moe.

And they have things like, oh God, is it? I thought I saw you there. Yeah, yeah. Should we come and say? Is it duck racing or goose? I can't remember, but there's sort of odd traditions that have been going for a very long time. People think to themselves actually, you know, we don't want to be the generation where these things die out. Absolutely. I completely get there. I think it does, boasts a sense of a link to your community and the past and they, like, in the west country, there's lots of things like this. There's sort of like dances that happen through the street, especially towards the sort of Christmas period,

these sort of things. And it does engender something in you. You feel like you're part of the story of this place. I suppose that's what it is. I once was doing stand up in Penzance. And there was a festival, I don't the festival, I the festival, I their, I their, I their, I their, a festival, I then, I the, I then, I then, I then, I then, I then, then, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thu, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, but an old, you know, traditional festival, where you had the sort of the fake mayor of Penzance and there was a big procession through the town and people were dressed up, but it was during the, I think, probably 2010 World Cup, and England were playing. So the pubs were full of people in England shirts drinking cider and black. And it was like,

the two sides of Penzance. It was, it was, it was. Did it feel like it was a coming together or did it feel like it was too warring part? There were people in there having having to go at Wayne Rooney for not, you know, replicating his money united form on an international level. You were drunk and then there were people trying to keep this, you know, fine old tradition alive at the same time. And never the twain shall meet. So the thing with Haxi Hood, or the Haxi Hood,

there is more widespread phenomenon. In the East Midlands, we had plow play, which involved drama and songs, and the collection, the collection, thatthat was typically performed on the Monday after 12th night, Plow Monday and in these plays there were lords and ladies a fool plow jags or plow bollocks or plow boggins a recruiting sergeant and a wrapped baby and they were characters like the Hobby Horse which is a the the the haq-hawed horse the their their their their their their their their their their their their their characters their characters their characters their characters their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their their their their c. c. c. c. c. c. c. c. their. their. their. I were were were were were their. I were theirc-a. I were theirc-a. I was their c. I was their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their.aughe. their their the Mary Lloyd, which was something I discussed in a previous episode, which is a Welsh tradition. The Haxi Hood might have begun life as a plow play

and then was mixed in with holiday football and other winter traditions. There were other sort of 14th century legends that discussed like land tenure. It might have all been mixed up into one thing and become the thing it now is. So as I said, the fool is the one who kicks off the Haxi Hood game by shouting house town against town if you meet a man knock him down but don't hurt him. And then he's richly smoked out using damp straw and then he leads the participants to the field. And then there's a- What do you mean by that? They sort of they smoke thoke smoked smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke smoke the the then there's a... What do you mean he smoked out? What do you mean by that? They sort of they smoke this damp straw and then he leads people to a sort of field. And then they just... Then the scrum begins. And then like six hours later they end up in a pub. Breaking news coming in from Bet 365, where every nail biting overtime win, breakaway,

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Ready for you. All right, time now to learn all about horse diving. Now in the past, I remember there like, there was just a lack of duty of care towards animals. I remember there was a, do you ever used to watch wrestling? WWF, I used to watch that when I was a kid. There was a wrestler called Jake the Snake. And every now and again I'll go back and watch some old wrestling and Jake the Snake would come to the ring with a snake in a bag. The snake was called Damien and to enter the ring what Jake would do would he'd take the bag with the snake in it and just throw it in the ring. Okay. This was a broadcast on television. the throw the snake in the the the the the the the the the the the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in their their the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake in the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. And the snake. at the time and never clocked this. But then you look back and you're like, bloody other just like hoying that snake around.

Yes, man, isn't it? And when Jake the snake would beat someone, he'd throw the snake on them. And he would like swing the snake around the ring. This was on the television. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. So I remember by that point the old no animals were harmed during the making of this TV programme. Obviously they just didn't put that one on the wrestling. People were like, well yeah, the snake was harmed.

Yeah, yeah. Did you see it? I went to the circus at the weekend and he was just acrobats. And I was remembering when we were children and he went to the circus, there the to be a goat struggling. to be goat, to be goat, to to to to to their, to their, their, their, their, their, to, their, their, their, their, tho, their, their, their, to, their, their, to, their, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, tho.e.e.e.e. Wea.e. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. People, their, their, yeah, their, their, their, the top of you know 12 bar stalls or whatever sort of things used to happen back then or there'd be animals jumping around and doing tricks weren't there but that's all changed I would in that in that short period I would love to see a goat balancing on 12 bar stools. Yeah there was there was a when I went to one of the west country they it was mountain goats showing how well they could climb and they put all the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to they. to they. they. It was they. It was they. It was they. It was they. I they. I was they. I was their their their their their their their their their their their their their they they they they they they they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their they. I was they. I was to to to to to they. I was too too too too to too to too too to too they. they. they. I was their their their then it sort of climbed to the top of it. It was quite impressive. The goat did? Yeah, yeah. Wow. It was quite important. I'm not saying they should bring back animals to services, but I will just say that was quite impressive.

To be fair. But yeah, like animals would just get treated for spectacles in a way that is just so alien to us now. And in that category I would like to to to to to to to to that category I would like to now add horse diving. Now what is... It doesn't sound great horse diving. It doesn't in terms of a combination of words doesn't sound ideal does it? When I say horse diving what you imagine? Well, I'm imagining full scuba suit and it's sort of going down to see the sharks and tropical fish that sort of thing, that sort of horse diving. Well we never look at each other's research. Horse diving, I'm assuming from the way Chris asked the question, people aren't diving off horses into a pool, so I don't know. What is

it? The horses doing the diving, I'll tell you that much. So if you went to the Wayne County Fair in 1922, you would see a woman atfoot high platform made of wood. You would see a woman at the top of the platform, Mabel Pearson. A newspaper described the act as follows. Ms. Pearson awaits the horse at the top of the tower. The horse climbs up the towar. 40 foot. The horse walks deliberately to the slope, waits for a moment. Mabel jumps on top. Then, with four hoves, placed on the towaron. toen, toen, toen, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tooom. tooom. the the the the the the tooom. the the their, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you would would would would would would would would would would, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their, their. the the their. the the the the the the tooome. tooome. tooomorrow, the the tooomorrow, toe. toe. tooome. tooome. tooome. tooombse, tooom. tooom. the the the the toe walks deliberately to the slope, waits for a moment, Mabel jumps on top, then with four hooves placed on the apron, gives a shove with her, the hind legs, and the horse dives into the water with someone on top, chest first. That sounds horrendous. It sounds horrendous. It sounds horrendous. But to go back to Miss Pearson, she insisted it wasn't.

She said in an interview that the trick thickickickickick thic thrik is the thrik is the the thrike the thrike the th th the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi Miss Pearson, she insisted it wasn't. She said in an interview that the trick is to make sure the horse hits the water just right so the rider stays on. And then there is no danger. And so that she had, up and to that point, only suffered minor injuries on occasion. So it's a who, I mean, my little knowledge of diving, it's all about creating a straight spear-like shape to reduce spa. Is the horse, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, the horse, like, the horse, like, the horse, like, the horse, the horse, their like shape to reduce spa. Is the the horse putting its two hooves out in front of it a point? Like Tom Daly when he enters the water is that what's happening? It's got his chest first I imagine it's hooves that behind it. It's like chesting the water. Yeah like a sort of belly flop. Yeah an equestrian belly flop. And where the horse is okay. I've got one source, which is Mabel Pearson, she says so, but then again, you know,

this is her livelihood, so I don't know if she's a reliable witness. But Mabel Pearson, like I say, she insisted it wasn't dangerous. Horse diving was a sharpshutor and a dentist. He was a sharpshooter and a dentist. He was a sharpshoothitter and a dentist. That's the thing back then, isn't it? It's like they're two different things. He was a gunslinger and a quantity surveyor. What a weird LinkedIn profile that would be.

Yeah. Eclectic. Probably why LinkedIn didn't catch on back then. Yeah. 2004 to 208, a sharpsh shooter. Two back then. Yeah. 2004 to 2008, a sharpshooter. Two to the eight to 24 dentist. So this William Franklin Carver, he became a business friend and a business associate of Buffalo Bill Cody. And other, he became friends with other spectacle performers of the period, and they specialized

in shows which displayed the invented tradition of the Wild West. And this William Franklin Carver became friends with Cody, but it ended the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to the Wild West and this William Franklin Carver became friends with Cody but it ended bitterly when they each had a rival show to promote and to distinguish his Wild America show from Buffalo Bill Cody. Carver came up the idea of the diving horse. It was his idea. So it's inspired he said by an incident in Nebraska in the 1880s whilst riding either across a bridge which collapsed the tales described both that Carver would plunge into the water atop his horse. And so this accident happened, Carver plunged into the water atop a horse and thought, wow, this would make a good spectacle, but of course, 99% sure it's bonnets.

I just, it's the combination of being a sharpshooter and a dentist. You just can't move on. I can't move on from that. He's a sharpshooter a job by the way. It's not just just suggesting you're good at shooting things. Is that what it is? Is that what we see? Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember ever looking up the yellow pages for sharp shooters. Why would you need one? Yeah, exactly? Also you say this guy had an idea. How much of an idea is horse diving? If someone said I've had an idea and told me it was horse diving, I'd say you haven't had an idea. It's the kind of idea that you meet who is an assassin and an app developer would come up with.

Yeah. It's not an idea. It's shoving two words together. It's hedgehog acrobatics. It doesn't just shove two things together and that's the idea. Actually, hedgehog acrobatics I would watch, to be fair. I can't see the appeal of watching this. Do you not think it's just like, it puts me on edge even thinking about it? It's a bit like that. It's a bit like that. Do they do it at the thi. Do you kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind, do it, do it, do it, th, that, do it, that, do it, do it, do it, do it, that, do it, do, the that, the the their, their, do, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Actually, th. Actually, the. that, that, that, that, that, actually, that, that, actually, that, actually, that, that, actually, that, actually, that, their, their, actually, their, the pier. Oh yes. Like a red ball thing. Yeah, it's a bit like that. So the Diving Horse Show was given its first performance in Kansas City, Missouri in August 1894. It was described as the latest attraction and it made Carver loads and loads of cash.

People couldn't wait to see it. Really? By 1895 he was advertising the high diving horse on the front page of the Los Angeles Times. Wow. Incredible! It was a big deal people loved it. And from the start, Carver, what he did is he employed stunt jockeys and they were exclusively women, almost exclusively women. He included his daughter, Lorena Carver, and later his daughter-in-law

Sonara Webster, who famously responded to a classified ad Carver had placed in a newspaper, which read this, wanted, attractive young woman who can swim and dive, likes horses, desires to travel, see Dr. W. F. Carver Savannah Hotel. That was the ad. A spectator later observed the riders, brackets, all women, made it look easy, but it wasn't. So holes diving caught on in America, and you might think, well that's it. It's like a local folk festival, there they enjoy it. No, no, no. This went all over the world. It appeared at, horse diving appeared at the Toronto Exhibition, London's Crystal Palace, the Hippodrome, New York's Coney Island, and at county fairs in New England,

notably Maine and across the American West. It was universally successful. It made it across the Atlantic. Yes. That's incredible. That's amazing. Horse diving. Horse diving, as a spectacle. And then what's even more astounding is Hollywood saw the appeal of horse diving, and they used it too to provide spectacular stunts for their motion pictures. In a 1915 adaptation of Carmen, a suitor plunged his death atop his horse for their motion pictures. In a 1915 adaption of Carmen, a suitor plunged his death atop his horse in the film and this scene was filmed in the Adirondack Mountains and the crew plunged a genuine horse and a genuine actor over an 80-foot high ledge into the pool below in a stunt for the film. Yeah. Was that horse okay? The horse was okay, the actor was okay.

Stunt actors, even now, with all the health and safety and the planning, still get injured occasionally really badly. Yeah. Even actors who do their own stunts get injured really badly. Tom Cruise had an accent didn't he, on a film a few years ago. If you were a stuntman in 1915, you were, for one of a better word, a maniac. Isn't there the one of the thing I always think about filmmaking in that, yeah, you're right, it's so dangerous. Wasn't the original Wizard of Oz? This might be a phantom memory, but didn't they paint the Tin Man for the first shoot,

with like lead paint and made him really, really sick? I think that is thrue, like, like, the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thin, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't the one the one the one the one the one the one the one, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't their their their their thin, isn't thin, isn't thin, isn't thin, thin, thoan, isn't the is true. And they had to recast him. Yeah, I think that is true. That is good. That is what film making was like, it's so dangerous back then, especially stunts. But the situation with this is if the horse doesn't want to get into stunts. It's a thing you're making it do. A stuntman wants to get into stunts. So the fair way to do this would be two stuntmen in a pantomime horse being rowed by another stuntman. Then you have a situation where you have three stuntmen who are all happy to be doing this shot because they're stuntmen, not a horse which has been three stunt men who can reasonably offer consent. Yeah, exactly. A horse just wants to be a horse. He wants to eat a few

apples and sort of whinny, whatever horses do. We just want to be jumping off it. 80 foot as well. That's another t-shirt for the A-Wat Time Store. A horse just wants to be a horse. Well tell me it's not true. I interviewed a stuntman on the five-life show. He'd been doing it for years. Really? And if we, for a societus and sportsboy, we had to watch the documentary about Evil Knievel. The thing with Ea Knievel, what I had realized with him, he got injured all the time. Yeah, really. He was constantly getting injured really badly, breaking legs, breaking bones in his back, concussions, and also there was so little planning. When he tried to go over that canyon in a rocket, oh yes, there's no science involved. He just looked at it, it went, yeah, that looks about right.

But isn't that the thriller, I always thought that was the thrill of Evil and can evil, the to go wrong. Well he there's the bit when he does a big jump at Wembley at Wemble at the old Wemble Stadium. The buses yeah this is coming off his bike goes horribly wrong. I think he breaks his leg and he takes the mic he's, this is the last time you'll see Evil Canevil. They're a big cheer, six weeks later, he's back on the bike, absolute nutcase. But you know, I knew about that Wembley thing, but what were you buying a ticket for? You're not buying a ticket and turn up and that's the one thing. Do you have a support act? Do you have a support act? Do you. Do minutes. Slightly shitter stuff for an hour.

Like, you can't, that can't be it. That can't be the show. Like, oh, all right, let's go. There's not even time for like a hot dog. There's horse diving. I'm amaz at this. Yeah, well, look, it was dangerous. So the daughter of William Franklin Carver, his daughter-in-law, sorry,

Sonara Webster Carver, she was involved in an accident in 1931 that left her completely blind. She was aboard the horse, red lips, slipped on the diving platform. Both survived the horse and Sonara, but as Sonara hit the water, she had her eyes opened. Oh, my God. She got to attach retiners had her eyes opened and she got to touch retinas in both eyes. But she continued to perform until her retirement in 1942, despite being blind. Incredible. And then Sonara's younger sister, Arnett, was also involved until the 1930s. But around this point that the axe heyday was over. They were, viewers wanted a different spectacle. The Carver family, having so tied

themselves to horse diving, tried a variety of different things to attract crowds. So they would jump into pools having set themselves a light. They would try diving with different animals, including an elk, an elephant, leaping dogs, but nothing reinvigorated the shows people had moved on. If you got a new one-day time machine and were hunting around in history for the latest possible horse diving act, you might be able to see one at the Atlantic City Steel Pier in New Jersey, which has been the home of the Carver Show since 1929. It survived there in New Jersey until the 1970s when animal rights campaigners successfully succeeded in getting it shut down. The 70s. Yeah, it's the 1970s. It's quite weird that there's

no... Well maybe there is amongst much older people, but as far as I'm concerned, I've never heard of it. There's no cultural memory of this. Yeah it's not like one of those things you're like oh my god remember when you used to do that wasn't that mad I've never heard of it but it was absolutely massive at the time yeah massive at the time died out yeah diving on an elephant the the toying on a elephant is every time you have to refill the to refill every to refill every to refill every to refill every to to to to refill every to to to to the to the the the the the the the to the the the the the the the to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the try.oooooooooooo. I was is is is. I was the the the too. toe. the the the the the have to refill the pool every time, surely, wouldn't you? So everyone's just waiting patiently for the three hours for you to refill it and give a second dive. An elephant's a brave chap because they're quite clever. You know, I'd kind of be surprised at an elephant when he gets to the top of that

platform doesn't look down and go, fuck this. I nearly asked the most stupid question I've ever asked, I'm not going to. Does an elephant have knees? But it doesn't gloss it down. It doesn't walk completely straight leg. Like you put a toilet roll on a cat's leg. It does have knees. I'm 90% sure it has knees. There's something about the elephant's knee. I don't know what it is. There's some kind of facts about the elephant's knee, which is different to a normal knee. I don't know what it is. They're very their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their what it is. They very rarely do their ACL. Because they're, they don't play enough football. So that's folk festivals done. Really enjoyed that boys. Yeah, it was good. It was a good one. If you want to sign up and become, oh, what a time full timer. For just-Timeer, for just $4.99 a month, you can get two bonus episodes a month, you'll get no adverts when you listen, you'll get both parts together, lots of other benefits.

You can sign up using your Spotify app, using your Apple app, or going to O-Wa-Wa-Time. Whatever way you want to do it. listening and we will see you guys next week. Thanks so much for your time. Have a lovely week. Bye bye. I'm you the