Oh What A Time... - #7 Pets

Episode Date: August 27, 2023

This week on the podcast we're turning our attention to the animals humans have befriended throughout history; from the animals beloved by Mayans and Aztecs, to the most famous horse in ancient Rome, to pigeon racing in South Wales (no prizes for figuring out which of your three presenters has tackled that one). We've got a new feature: ONE DAY TIME MACHINE. Let us know where in history you'd like to go for one day and also please fill us in on your time travel rules: [e-mail] This first series will contain 12 episodes that we’ll be releasing weekly. If there's an episode you'd like to hear, please let us know! And thank you so much for your support for the podcast since our launch a few weeks ago. If you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? (Thus taking heed of our increasingly desperate pleas for reviews). We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @ohwhatatimepod And thank you to Dr Daryl Leeworthy for his help with this week’s research. Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash CA dash PRU dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. I'm going back to university for $0 delivery fee, up to 5% off orders and 5% Uber cash back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings make free. Eligibility and member terms apply. The all-new FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino is bringing you more action than ever. Want more ways to follow your faves? Check out our new player prop tracking with real-time notifications.

Or how about more ways to customize your casino page with our new favorite and recently played games tabs? And to top it all off, quick and secure withdrawals. Get more everything with FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Visit connectsontario.ca. Hello and welcome to Oh, What a Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was as awful as it seems. I'm Chris Scull. I'm Ellis James. And I'm Tom Crane.

And each week on this show we'll be looking at a brand new historical subject. And today we're going to be discussing pets. From the most famous horse in ancient Rome, the pets of the Mayans, and the history of pigeon racing in South Wales. All right, welcome to the show. The postbag this week is chock-a-full of your wonderful emails. And Ellis, you've picked out a few favourites. Yes, we love reading your emails. If you've got any correspondence you'd like to send it, you can send it to hello at ohwhatatime.com.

But we got this from Lizzie Hopley. Hello, fabulously funny history dudes. Thank you very much, Lizzie. Flattery will get you everywhere. Yours is my new favourite podcast, so thank you. I first heard of goat licking as a form of torture when it was referred to on Game of Thrones, and it's apparently a thing.

I think if you stick to the Romans and Spanish Inquisition, you'd be okay for subject matter, question mark. But yeah, it's not the funniest of subjects. So, can I also suggest the subject of relics? That's a great idea, I think. Items kept in churches and cathedrals that claim to be the actual blood, hair, slash, underpants of a saint or a martyr. So many of them were dodgy claims deliberately made up in order to promote religion and gain popularity with pilgrims and tourists and or to raise money for the building of the cathedral.

It's a really interesting thing, so we're definitely going to look into relics. But she sent us a screen grab of goat licking, and it's Romans. They use tickling as a torture with goats licking feet dipped in salt water. It's an amazing picture. It is. Just to describe it, Ellis, just to describe what we're seeing there. Well, the goat looks absolutely thrilled to bits. There's a man lying back on a plank with his bare feet uncovered

and the happiest goat you've ever seen licking those feet. His legs are tethered to the plank. That's pretty bad, but a worse method of torture would be if you were forced to lick a goat until it was completely clean. A goat's hoof. Being forced to lick a goat's hoof. A goat that's been out in the pasture for a day and you have to keep licking until it is 100% clean.

I had many hopes for this podcast, but one of them wasn't, that we would look at ancient methods of torture and improve them. By the time you got around to the back bit of the goat, you're confessing to anything at that point, aren't you? I'm just kind of, whatever you want to know from me. That's amazing. Also, in that email they mentioned seeing dodgy relics. I've

seen a dodgy relic. Talking about Julian Dix, the ex-West Ham player. Geoffrey Boycott.rey boycott really nice really nice that is it's a reminder of a bygone age so i went to i went to bruges we've all been to bruges actually i'm tom's tag too i went to bruges many years ago with a very early kind of date my now wife and we went to bruges and i was looking for recommendations one of my mates said you've got to go to the basilica of the holy blood in which they claim to have a vial of christ blood so i went there it's a kind of beautiful beautiful church you can go in there and basically you pay a fee and a nun you go up on this like little stage and then you pay a fee and a nun she's got like a really serious looking mother

theresa like nun old like a lot you feel like she's got a lot of authority as opposed to what sorry what what sort of what sort of non-serious nuns are you coming across like a like like a cool nun hip nun you know you know sister act isn't a documentary they're not normally that wacky they are generally in sister act very much the older nun that's really angry. Not the young, cool young ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The proper nun.

What I would describe as a proper nun. So she was old. So she'd drawn the blood herself. She looked like Indiana Jones style. She may have been manning Christ's blood

for 2,000 years. Right, okay, okay. So you're stood on a little stage. So she'd go up on this stage. I went in the middle of it. There was no one else around. There was one guy,

a youngish guy, had gone in front of me. So she got up on this stage. I went in the middle of it. There was no one else around. There was one guy, a youngish guy, had gone in front of me. And you go up, and I'm watching this happen for the first time. You panned over your money to the nun. And then she's got a glass box, but it's covered in this purple satin kind of cloth. You pay your money.

You stand there, and she pulls it back. And you get three or four seconds to stare at this glass vial and um the guy so so the guy in front of me i'm just in the queue behind and she pulls it back and he like double taps the box like taps on his hand and then the nun and him like exchange a nod off he walks and i'm like right this is the thing you've got to do you've got to tap this is the thing so i go up there. The nun pulls back the cloth,

and there's like, what I can only describe is like a sausage in a glass vial. And also, I swear, I haven't Googled this, but I swear it says on it, like 1258 or something like that. It's got engraved with a year.

It's like at least a thousand years later than Christ died. Yeah. Anyway, so she pulls it back. I'm looking at this glass sausage, and I just give it a double tap. I'm like, yeah, have a nod with a nun, walk off. Then my wife's behind me.

She comes up. Nun pulls back the thing. She has a good look at it. Double taps. Double taps the sausage. She gives it another nod walk off and then my wife

goes up to me and goes why did you why did you double tap it I was like I've got no idea that guy fronted it

I thought that was the thing she goes I don't know the nun kind of has given me a date like you're picking out a steak bacon

Greg's I'll have that one he's having the sausage it was a bit like a Mexican wave well they're doing it Like you're picking out a steak bake in Gregg's. I'll have that one. It was a bit like a Mexican wave. Well, they're doing it. And it just kind of came off afterwards. I was like, that was so absurd. The whole thing is so absurd.

Why did it look like a sausage? Was his diet really bad? You don't get enough chance to really look at it. Well, that's why they whip the thing. That's why they're so quick with a cloth. Because if it's there for too long, you're like, wait a second, that's just a sausage. Yeah, yeah. What have I paid for? So they need to put it back again.

And then you wander away, you go, oh, it can't have been a sausage. I only saw it for two seconds. It can't have been a sausage, can it? And I was concentrating too much on the double tap. I was concentrating too much on the double tap. Well, if you have any similar stories of weird historical relics that you've been fooled into looking at, the more ridiculous the better. Do get in contact with the show.

But we also have a brand new bit of content, don't we, Ellis? Do you want to introduce the most exciting thing that has happened on the six or seven episodes of this show so far? It's yet another brilliant idea that's been come up with by tom crane's wife so thank you claire um yeah although tom did come up with the title and the title of the feature is one day time machine if you could go back in time to one specific day and you've got the whole of history to choose from what would you choose and why also i mean this is a more sort of existential uh discussion are you taking part

are you a ghost are you invisible yeah you can create your own rules yeah because this is the thing i've never been like am i am i floating back to, I don't know, the release of Sgt Pepper? Am I simply observing? Am I quantum leaping it? So I'm a photographer at the release of the record and I'm having to try and fit in using 60s vernacular. Am I saying groovy a lot? Or am I a coffee table?

Am I just... The records have been placed on me. I can hear everything, but i can't say anything i can't contribute it's completely up to you an awkward moment when you've chosen coffee table they've all moved into another room for some reason now you're stuck in an empty room are you a walking coffee table are you a couple are you a cup like chip from booting the beast these are all questions we need you to tell us. We need you to answer. It's one day

time, Athene. Thank you, my wife, Claire. And here is how you get in contact with the show. Alright, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at ohwhatt time dot com and you can follow us on

Instagram and Twitter at oh what a time pod. Now clear off. I'm going to be talking about the crazy pets of ancient Rome. I will be talking about the phenomenon that was pigeon fancying in industrial areas, in particular South Wales. And I'll be talking about the pets of the Mayans and the Aztecs. So pets. Quick question, are you pets people? Let's just ask that. Are you into animals? Seriously considering a cat because my children are obsessed with cats and the joy they feel every time they see a cat, even if it's just a picture of a cat on a postcard, makes me think that I should pull the trigger and kill a cat. And buy a cat. Yeah. But no, I had a dog when I was a little kid, but I haven't owned a pet.

And goldfish oh nice uh goldfish actually from the fair which ended up sort of breaking records and living until they were about 14. really wow i had well i had the same thing i had a goldfish called sooty and i said to my dad when i was about 20 i said wasn't it mad that that goldfish sooty lived till it was like 12 years old and he was like there were about eight versionsfish sooty lived till it was like 12 years old. And he was like, there were about eight versions of sooty. Like, into my 20s, I believed it was the same character. It was getting replaced all the time, and I never noticed. You're saying into your 20s, I'm 42.

So, great, thank you. You've ruined my childhood there, Chris. That's brilliant. Claire went to a dinner party once with some friends two of whom are sisters and they were talking about their dog they had growing up and how is this going to be a pet salad it is a pet salad and they were talking about their dog they'd had growing up and they were saying do you know what the thing it was it was such an intelligent dog that at the age of six it uh wouldn't work for the um the police as

a as a sniffer dog they it was it was headhunted as such a brilliant dog it wouldn't work for the police one of the guys there was one of these girls new boyfriends and he went he was obviously put down wasn't it and they both their faces dropped neither of them had realized and they were like in their 30s this dog hadn't been headhunted and drafted into the police clearly been at best putting a pound that is that makes it sound like like the sort of the scouting network you have

for kids like oh yeah there's this 11 year old boy and he's in Norfolk and Man United are after him the idea that that is how the police dog team at the Met find dogs they just walk around looking for really well behaved pets that one! Police scouts watching you take it.

Do you want to serve your country? And every so often, obviously the dad did this, they would receive letters from the dog with a paw print at the bottom saying the crimes it had been involved in. So obviously it had been really perpetuated, this lie. But then this realisation that, oh no. I hope the crimes that the dog was allegedly involved in were like the really big famous crimes of the day.

Briggs Mac. Yeah, all of that. Briggs Mac. So he did the great train robbery. Briggs Mac. Wow! You know a dog nicked the World Cup? Well, our dog found it again. He's looking for WMD that is absolutely incredible

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Learn more at amex.ca slash yamxtermsapply. I'm going to take you on a journey, guys, back to ancient Rome to talk to you about the pets of ancient Rome. Are you up for that? Yes. I love ancient Rome. I love going back there. It's one of my favourite places to mentally travel to when I do this. And also it feels sunny in my mind. It feels like it's a bit of a Rome. Are you up for that? Love ancient Rome. Love going back there. It's one of my favourite places to mentally travel to. It is. And also it feels sunny in my mind.

It feels like it's a bit of a holiday. Yeah, that's true. If I think about medieval Britain, it's not like I don't feel, oh good, I'm going on a trip back to medieval Britain. No, I just think of sludge. Yeah, exactly. Do not wear your white trainers to go back to medieval Britain. No, my god no. Absolutely. So, here we are. We're back to medieval Britain. No, my God, no. Absolutely.

So, here we are. We're back in ancient Rome. Now, ancient Rome was an interesting time for pets, mainly for emperors. Now, I'm going to start you off by telling you about the most famous pet in the history of ancient Rome. Now, Gaius Caesar, better known as Emperor Caligula, had a favourite horse called Incitatus. Now, have you heard of Incitatus? I haven't. No, but I've heard of Caligula.

Yes. Bit of a boy. He was, exactly. Yeah, yeah, top lad. And this horse held quite a cherished role in his life. So much so that he made the horse a priest and he also was in discussions, people feel, about him becoming a member of the Senate. So this is how much he loved...

I've heard that. I've actually heard that. Yeah. Wasn't that because he hated the Senate and he was like, my horse could do a better job than you? Yes. There are feelings amongst some historians that part of the reason he was doing this was basically a way of riling the Senate,

who he hated. But I guess the alternative is that he thought this horse would genuinely do a good job. Yeah. Like Mr. Ed. He's got some good ideas. How would it vote? Well, I'll tell you what it is.

The nays would have it. Who fucked? You ever that and the nays would have it? Oh, absolutely. Like Mr. Ed. He's got some good ideas. How would it vault? Well, I'll tell you what it is. The nays would have it. Who fucked? Yeah, when that and the nays would have it. Oh, very good. He's one of the nation's top comedy writers. I had that written on my pad here. That's not off the cuff, but I had that ready to go. I mean, this guy's written 27 Seas of the Last Leg.

And now you're writing jokes about Caligula. Thank God, you know, if the last leg was on in ancient Rome, just imagine what you'd have achieved. You've been topical for 2,000 years. Feelings on a horse in government? Do a better job than this lot, right? Of course, someone had to say it. If he was doing it

to prove a point about the Senate in a sort of, my horse could do a better job than this lot, I really, my horse could do a better job than this lot. I really, really admire that as a kind of bargaining tool slash argument. That's a very, very funny thing to say. Can you imagine if Keir Starmer filled his shadow cabinet with animals? The dispatch box.

Like, I don't know, a goose or a cockerel. The Speaker of the House yelling, order, order, louder and louder as a monkey rips off Rees-Mogg's face. Also, as we all know, Britain is a nation of pet lovers. You definitely win votes from some people. People love horses. When you think about what they spend on racehorses, they would definitely be a person voting for the horse party, I reckon, if you put horses up for election. True, I think you'd grow to love it as well.

I think you'd get your deposit back. I think in a rural constituency, if you put a horse up for election, you'd definitely get your deposit back it would have to be green party or something like that i think they'd have to be that way leaning surely so this horse incitatus although it didn't actually make it into the senate it lived a sort of quite a crazy privileged life so firstly it had a diet which was described as fit for a

king would you like to guess what its main go-to food was what it's uh what would normally have wine wine not bad guess actually pheasant so its main meal was uh oats mixed with gold so it would have oats with flakes of gold stirred through it and this is basically what this horse would eat every meal. If you're a stable hand, because that gold's going straight through like sweetcorn. Surely the rush to be sifting through that. That is a very good point. There's a way to plump up your wages. That can't be good for anyone, though.

Any mammal eating sort of gold leaf. You would just want the best oats rather than oats mixed with gold, wouldn't you? I suppose it's quite hard to sift through your oats when you've got hooves, isn't it? You can't really pick them out. You'd want organic jumbo oats if you were a horse. If you need money, put it into a bunker gun. But what was weirder,

the gold in the oats isn't the weirdest thing. The weirdest thing is that this horse, he wouldn't eat alone in his stable. According to the Roman historian Suetonius, the horse would eat in the royal court, sat with visiting dignitaries and being served by waiters. So imagine turning up to a dinner party or like an event and you're looking at your name on the table plan and you're thinking,

please, please don't be... I really don't want to be sat by the horse. And you go, oh no. And then you are, you're looking at your name on the table plan, and you're thinking, please, please don't be, I really don't want to be slapped by the horse. And you go, oh, no. And then you are, you're slapped by the horse, and you're asking to pass you the wine, and he keeps knocking stuff over. Yeah. Also.

Eating all the apples. In the pre-mobile phone age, pre-smartphone age, you'd be forced to try and make conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. You couldn't just think, sorry, I'll check my emails. You'd be like so uh a gold leaf then does it taste nice or did you mainly taste oats when you i don't know

how long till you break out they why the long face joke oh yeah well for you i would say that would be straight away straight off the bat in absolute panic so they would sit at the table with this horse and eat with this horse and eat his gold. But eating with your pets at the table wasn't kind of a particularly weird thing for emperors. So Emperor Elagabalus had tame lions and leopards as pets, which he would use... Now, now then, now then, now then.

I have a real issue with the idea of a tame lion. Completely agree. That is nonsense, isn't it? It's an oxymoron. They are not domesticated animals. Even if you've brought it up since it was a tiny cub. Is this your line in the sand? Is this the thing you'll die on?

It is fair to say that if I turned up at some sort of formal meal and there were tame lions there i would shit myself i would be out of there faster i don't care you know if it's a corporate event and i'm being paid money to i'd be like you keep the money yeah here's my script. Do it yourself. Script, eh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Someone's professional.

Yeah. Here's a couple of post-it notes I've jotted a few ideas down on. Work it out for yourself. Was that a subtle comment to any corporate bookers that might be listening that you do prepare and you are professional? It was a very, very transparent come get me me plea because i've overstretched myself on the mortgage so it was it was weirder than that though ellis not only did he have lions and leopards uh he would also choose to release them during dessert and encourage them to get up on the furniture basically because he found it hilarious when the guests would start to panic. Because his point of view was, he knew they were tame, but my guests don't.

That was his point of view. Can you imagine the terror? The idea of lions, brackets, inverted commas, tame lions being released as a prank. Absolutely. Can you think of anything more pantrifying? If the lion roars at you, and then Caligula turns turns around and goes don't worry they're tame just like fuck off mate you're best mate with a horse i'm not listening to you absolutely what are you on about it's a lion

is it a man in a lion outfit no it's a real lion then it's a lion the basic rule of a dinner party is i think should be that at no point should you be made to feel like you're going to be one of the courses. I think that's quite a fair thing to... Is that your red line? That is my red line. Yeah, exactly. That joke would go really well at a corporate as well because it's clean. It's relevant.

Okay. There's no real victims in it. Yeah. It's relevant. Okay. There's no real victims in it. I mean, sort of, you've got red-faced CEOs in their 60s were like that, and the younger people were like,

that's good stuff. I'm now going to add to your pitch, and I'm going to pitch myself. So you'll get Ellis for a reasonable fee, and I will write for Ellis. So you'll get a double whammy. Skull can do audio. You can do the audio. That is good stuff. That is good stuff. That is good stuff. We're here to celebrate the life of Stephen,

who unfortunately last month, as we all know, was eaten by a lion at a dinner party. So these lions would come out. People would freak out. They'd run away. And that was basically the way it was at emperor's dinner parties. But for the general public in ancient rome they also had a real passion for animals now the average animals that they kept

actually weren't that different to what we have now the dog the cat and the caged bird were the main three for normal households in ancient rome yeah and archaeologists have actually they've genuinely discovered beware of the dog signs in the ruins of ancient Pompeii. That is superb. How cool is that? That's, yeah, that's cool. If it wasn't dogs, as I say, it was caged birds. The main one that your average Roman owned was the parrot,

and they loved it mainly for its ability to mimic. The writer Apuleius, who tells us there were standard Roman practices, basically, for trying to train your parrot to speak. He says, when it is being taught to imitate human human speech the parrot is beaten over the head with an iron wand that it may recognize its master command and that is the rod of its school days so basically you would teach it what you want it to learn you give it a whack on the head when it said the word that's correct or maybe got it wrong I guess it'd make more sense and then that's how people would teach their parrots to mimic but he goes on to say that you must be careful because teaching a parrot to swear it will swear continually making night

and day hideous with its imprecations swearing becomes its natural note and its ideal of melody when it's repeated all its curses it repeats the same strain again i cannot foresee any situation where i wouldn't find a parrot swearing hilarious absolutely a funeral maybe no it's still funny it would be it would be fantastic at a funeral apuleius does have advice for what happens if you do end up with a swearing parrot he says should you desire to rid yourself of its bad language you must either cut out its tongue or send it back as soon as possible to its native woods. But I've been thinking about this.

If you sent a swearing parrot back to the woods, wouldn't it just teach all the other parrots in that wood to swear? And then you'd live in the funniest country of all time. Productivity would crash because everyone's just laughing all the time. I would never get used to it and I'd never not love it. Yeah. It would be fantastic Going on a romantic stroll through a wood with your partner

And being told you're a wanker by 400 parrots That she can do better Let's talk about the Aztecs and the Mayans. So the Aztecs and the Mayans of pre-conquest Central and South America were as enthusiastic as the Romans about keeping pets. And the dog, in particular, played a powerful role in domestic life and in religious practice, particularly those aspects related to the afterlife. It was thought that dogs were there in the underworld

to guide souls to their final destination. And the Mayans believed that dogs were responsible for bringing humans the knowledge of fire. Right. If you're a dog and you need to convey how to make fire, how are you going about that? You haven't watched Lassie for a long time have you uh could lassie talk how was she doing that lassie could communicate but only to that one boy yeah well there's a young girl's trapped on a mineshaft what lassie what's that

get two sticks and rub them together for hours and then take that hot ash and pour it onto kindle and then waft it for an hour and then put some bigger logs on. You say we need wood to start a fire. What sort of wood? And then Lassie would go, bark. And you go, oh, that's fine. Again, it's good stuff for a corporate. For a very particular bark-based corporate.

A factory that shaves off bark from trees for some kind of... Ideally for use in Tinder. Oh, this is Tinder. There's got to be a joke there to do with the dating app as well. Absolutely delighted to perform at the Wales and South West Tree Surgeon of the Year Awards and I don't know if anyone remembers Lassie. It's all good stuff.

So they genuinely believe that dogs had taught them how to... The Mayans believed that dogs had conveyed the knowledge of fire to humans. Wow. Wow. Interesting. You'd be quite annoyed if you were the guy who discovered fire. In Mayan civilisation.

And there's some guy called Dave or whatever. He's like, you keep going, no, it was me. Everyone was there. You saw me rub the things together. Someone else is saying, actually, it was Rover. Rover told Dave. And Dave's like, no, Rover didn't tell me anything. I like Rover. And I will feed Rover. And I will. Rover told Dave. And Dave's like, no, Rover didn't tell me anything. I like Rover and I will feed Rover and I will take Rover for walks.

But I'm the fire guy. It was Rover, actually. Well, maybe that's what happened. We need to nip this in the bud now. What happened, Ellis, is that Dave and Rover... Rover was there. The idea was mine. Exactly.

Dave and Rover, they've gone off on idea was mine. Exactly. Dave and Rover, they've gone off on a walk together, just the two of them. And when they've come back, Dave has worked out how to make fire and everyone's gone, no way Dave came out with that. Come on.

Dave, he's an idiot. Dave is thick as shit. It's got to be the dog. It's got to be the dog. There's no other explanation. I smell a t-shirt range, Scal. That's our first merch. It's got to be the dog. There's no other explanation. I smell a T-shirt range, Gal. That's our first merch. It's got to be the dog on T-shirt.

It's got to be the dog. Dave holding two sticks alight and the dog looking proud. Do you expect me to believe, Dave, that that was Ewan, not Rover? Hang on. Mate, you've been around for 50,000 years and not worked out how to do fire, and you just walk off with that dog, and you, Dave... I'm meant to believe that you figured this out.

And the dog just happened to be there. All right, fine, it was collaborative. The Aztecs domesticated a relative of the Chihuahua, and these served as family pets, much as the Chihuahua does today. Larger dogs, domesticated by both the Aztecs domesticated a relative of the Chihuahua, and these served as family pets, much as the Chihuahua does today. Larger dogs, domesticated by both the Aztecs and the Mayans, were used as companions on hunting trips, and both types were fed a corn-based diet,

which helped to fatten up the animal over a period of about a year, at which point, according to the available archaeological evidence, the dogs were killed and then eaten by their owners. Oh, wow which point, according to the available archaeological evidence, the dogs were killed and then eaten by their owners. Oh, wow. Oh, no. Any story involving the Mayans and the Aztecs is like, oh, they're doing something nice here. Oh, that's nice that they're feeding,

they're plumping up that dog. Oh, they're eating it. Oh, dear. It always comes back to killing and eating everything. Oh, dear. Wow. But apparently dog meat was an essential source of protein for the Aztecs and the Mayans. in the 1500s spanish conquistadors such as bernal diaz de castillo saw the menagerie

of animals kept by the aztec emperor moctezuma and noted there was nothing pet like about the beasts kept in cages the spaniard actually wrote he saw that he saw every kind of eagle and every species of bird in their full splendour of plumage. All these birds, he said, had appropriate places to live and were under the care of several aviculturists who had to keep the nests clean, give proper food and set the birds for breeding. and there's also evidence that the conquering Europeans insisted that the animals were looked after properly and fed dog meat and the offal of human sacrifice What's the belief around that? Whether they were actually feeding

or they think this is a western version of... Well, they definitely kept them and this is why In the wake of the conquistadors, men of learning arrived from Europe to study the civilizations that had been encountered. And these men produced various documents, notably the Florentine Codex,

a multi-volume work which detailed everyday life and natural history in Central and South America. And in the book, we find evidence of the importance attached to the brightly colored plumage of birds such as the macaw. So it was the plumage, really, which is why they were keeping them. Specifically the macaw. So traders travelled vast distances, some measuring hundreds of miles,

to gather the finest, most colourful birds. They were then domesticated, kept as pets for many years. It was the feathers that were routinely harvested. So the macaw may have escaped being eaten, but it was a full-time working pet all the time and its feathers you see them on the headdresses the aztecs and the mayans wore and all those other ritual pieces of clothing you know the people looking after the birds with the aztecs sort of you know working in the aviaries i reckon that is what I would have done. I'm not a hunter. I'm not cut out for government. I think I just would have kept my head down

and I'd have been the McCaw guy. You don't want to be on that altar with your heart being held aloft while you look on. God, no. I think that's actually the secret to survival in Aztec society is find a niche that you know a lot about, and then you sort it. No offence, I really believe that within six months you'd have been pecked to death by a macaw.

I do believe that would have happened. You'd have done something wrong, and three macaws would have turned on you. No, I wouldn't have died, but I'd have been pecked in really embarrassing places. Yeah. Absolutely. I'd have been pecked in really embarrassing places and the whole town would have known. Yeah, the whole town would have seen.

And McCall would have pulled your shorts down in the town square. To the Peruvian Andes, where guinea pigs were kept as pets, one writer suggested that their squeaks and constant scurrying about and noisiness provided companionship in otherwise isolated communities. pigs were kept as pets one writer suggested that their squeaks and constant scurrying about and noisiness provide a companionship for in otherwise isolated communities there's an idea isn't it oh just release thousands of guinea pigs in an isolated community they'll make everyone just feel that it's busy it's a busy dynamic place to be living i had a guinea pig when i was growing up i remember about two weeks in going, oh, this is quite annoying now.

I just remember... Is this it? It was like a weekend. It was like a Sunday afternoon. It's all tipped. I was like, I just can't be bothered anymore. Obviously, I kept. I think my mum just basically took over from that point on,

which is terrible. Yeah, of course. I was only about eight. But yeah, yeah. Anyway. Yeah, that's a story that's been repeated in households up and down the country forever. So in the Peruvian Andes, some mummified guinea pigs have been found in human graves

indicating close association with their human owners. You're hoping those guinea... I mean, are they sticking those guinea pigs in alive, basically? Yes, that's the great fear. I find that quite comforting, though. That, you know, you read in the newspaper every few months like an elderly person will leave all of their money to their cat or someone will die when they leave all the money to a batty dog.

People still have globally enormous relationships, incredibly powerful relationships with their pets. And there's something quite comforting about the continuity that suggests that it's such an instinctive part of the human condition, the urge to domesticate animals. I think there's something quite nice about that.

Yeah, it really is. Do you know, when the Europeans were amped, had their minds blown by guinea pigs, and they were brought back. I can imagine, yeah. If you'd never seen one, it would be incredible, wouldn't it? The Elizabethan period is really notable for the amount of guinea pigs brought back from the New World.

And if you have a look at the portraits of members of elite society, including the Queen, there are guinea pigs all over the place. It was the big thing in Elizabethan society. The Royal Seal of Approval made the guinea pig a very fashionable accessory to possess. Kind of like Paris Hilton, I guess, and those little dogs you keep in a handbag. In our street, we have an albino squirrel. And this thing, it sets the whatsapp group the street whatsapp group a light because if you spot the albino squirrel out of your back window out of the kitchen window

suddenly you've got us you've got to take a photo of it and you've got to text it to the street whatsapp group and then you will get 30 replies it is people when you see a slightly uh curious animal like a guinea pig, if you've never seen one before, they're sort of incredible, aren't they? The albino squirrel, is he sort of the situation as the red squirrels and the grey squirrels are fighting? Is he in the middle

trying to mediate? What's the situation? Because he hasn't got a side to be on. No, he hasn't, no. got a side to be on. No, he hasn't, no. Okay, well I'm going to take on a walk. Now if you go on a walk through the South Wales Valleys, you will sometimes come across a well-appointed

small shed that's not far from a house, but it's far enough. If you get close you will hear the comforting coo of pigeons, for this is the pride and joy of a fancier, the latest in generations of working-class men who really, really love their birds. Now, as the Glamorgan Advertiser put it in 1927, there are three things of which the Welsh miner is particularly fond. Any visitor to the valleys would be impressed by the number of pigeon

lofts to be found in back gardens. They will often, too, see miners with large crates full of So what a life it is. Pigeons, rugby and chapel. They're the big three. So you're working long hours in a very, very dangerous place of work. What are the three things you do to unwind? It's pigeon time, it's rugby time and it's chapel time. Now, such was the popularity of pigeon racing and pigeon fancying. I always think the pigeon fancying is quite an unfortunate name.

Exactly what I'm thinking it is. It feels like something someone would say to you at school. Yeah, he's a pigeon fancyer. Because you've once stood near a pigeon and you're saying, Yeah, he doesn't fancy people, he fancies pigeons. Yeah, exactly.

Now, this was replicated in other working class areas of Britain as well. And it was so popular that an entire subculture grew up around the sport in the late 19th and early 20th century. So men and occasionally women spent their earnings building ever grander coupes, coats, lofts or foul houses

furnishing them with the best facilities they could afford. They spent money on buying the best birds, on subscribing to magazines and travelling to shows and to competitions all over Britain and abroad. Belgium, Spain spain and france in particular belgium that they were yeah that it was a very very big scene in belgium the pigeon fancying scene very very popular there and i suppose that is no different now to people spending money on golf clubs or bikes or any any of the sort of things that people do at the weekend to

unwind it's just it has gone out of fact you still you still see it there's still a boat but it has gone so when you go back home do you there are still pigeon fanciers around are they not as much it was something i remember from when i was a little kid like it was the kind of thing that sort of a few friends grandfathers were into. But I mean, I don't know anyone who does it now. But it was something that you were kind of aware of. But I see it as a very, very old-fashioned thing. What about you? Do you know what I was just thinking?

Isn't it funny? Was it like the 70s or 80s where, was it Richard David Attenborough? He put darts and snooker on the telly and it just went mad. If pigeon racing was a televised sport, I think I would watch it. How are you showing it? That's the problem. You could attach a GoPro to a pigeon.

That would be Attenborough's first question. You'd basically cover it like you covered the Tour de France. Yeah. You'd have a lot of drones. You'd be going back to people in the studio. Analysing the pigeons to see where they're looking knackered well you know we're saying this doping in pigeon racing is a thing no way no so yeah i was reading about this so you know how obviously in the 90s doping doping and

cycling was huge and it's obviously there's all those Tour de France races in the 2000s with no winners because they were won by Lance Armstrong. Yeah, people dope pigeons, believe it or not, because it's such a big business, right? Wow. Now, advertising columns in the newspapers offered single birds or small flocks for sale, as well as equipment, new and secondhand, and adverts for books, like Fulton's Book of Pigeons, which apparently was indispensable for true fanciers.

And there would be reveals of sort of pigeon based books small flock do you think that's kind of you don't really know what you're going to get you're just hoping there's a good one in there but it's a real culture now people buying retro clothing in bags and you don't know what you're going to get it's a huge thing on ebay so you might be in there you get like a 1994 brazil shirt and it's worth loads of money but it may also be just loads of rubbish. Yeah, and you can do that with kids' clothes as well, where you just get a percent of bundle of children's clothing that hasn't really been sorted out. Like a flock of birds.

Well, for a while there were pigeon dealerships on the high street. No! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next to like the Nissan garage. Yeah, well, it's like a sort of cross between a car showroom and a drug lord. And they would employ kids to nick pigeons, or they'd encourage children to nick pigeons, to sell to the dealers for a pittance, who in turn then sold them for large sums on the open market.

Because pigeons were, you know, they were really sought after. Now, the Rhondda in the South Wales Valleys was the absolute heartland of this sort of pet culture. And in the Rhondda, pigeons, they were loved, they were stroked, they were caressed. Competitions in the 1890s could attract hundreds of entries, and there were as many as 15 separate classes of competition under the umbrella of the Treherbert's Dog and Poultry Show alone.

Now, that's one village in one part of the Rhondda. And this tally was matched in every other township in the valley so that's loads and loads of competitions i mean they were everywhere i mean at one point people said south wales might have almost been as famous for pigeons as it was for coal one miner said that just before the first world war there were probably four or five pigeon lofts in every street each loft housing about 30 birds some that's 150 pigeons per street wow now the thing is right when i'm eating a sandwich in a major sort of city railway station and i'm surrounded by pigeons i've never thought to

myself i need more of these in my life but the opposite of that if you're a pigeon fancier and in a railway station and you see the usain Bolt of pigeons, do you think to yourself, I've got to get that pigeon. I've got to somehow grab a hold of that because that pigeon is money. That is a very good point. However, the ones that you see in railway stations always tend to look really unhealthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All clubfoot.

Yeah, I never see a pigeon, like at London Bridge, and think to myself, that's the picture of health, that pigeon. Is that pigeon on steroids? We were all there at Josh Whitacombe's London wedding. There was a little park just up the road from it. And I was with Charlie, my boy, who would have been two at the time. We were in the little park. And I went from it and uh i was with charlie my boy who would have been

two at a time we were in the little park and i went oh look over there there's a little pigeon should go see the pigeon and i picked him up we walked across to look at the pigeon and the pigeon was missing its head and it was such a london moment it was such a sort of what am i doing living here what the hell am i thinking just like yeah literally no head there was another time about another sort of animal london moment about a year ago when i was with my boys and a couple of their friends in a little park and they were all looking across in a bush and i said oh what game you playing and they said we're looking for the rat and they were spending the...

Basically, there's a huge rat, and they just spent an hour trying to find this rat in a bush near some bins. That's what life in the capital's like. During lockdown, when options were severely limited, we used to go to Crystal Palace Park and look at the rats. And I remember then thinking, this has to be my lowest ever.

Such a Dickensian Britain thing What do you want to do kids? Do you want to look at the rats? Yeah We used to look We used to stand there And I would hold their hands And go look at all of those rats Take a little flute

And try and lure them to the river Can't we go to the zoo dad? No We're looking at the rats 150 pigeons per street Some are more commodious Can't we go to the zoo, Dad? No, we're looking at the rats. 150 pigeons per street. Some were more commodious than the rooms in the miners' cottages, talking about the lofts. On the day of a big race, the whole village would be agog,

and the backyard crowded with people looking at the sky as though expecting a new comet or the eclipse of the sun. Wow. Now, unsurprisingly, given the importance attached to the sport, pigeons became points of conflict. Some regarded them as a public health nuisance, others as nodes of the local economy. Thefts were endemic, in part driven by those unscrupulous dealers, and the local courts dealt with endless cases of so-called pigeon larceny, which is an old-fashioned theft. So that's a side... Word for theft, I should say. So that's aside from shooting pigeons. Murdering them in other ways or simply letting them go free. Now, in 1867, one Swansea man was sent down for six months after nicking a pigeon. Imagine getting six months of bird

for nicking a pigeon. Doing bird? Yeah, doing bird. Maybe that's where the term... Maybe it is. No, it's not. Is's where the term Maybe it is No, it's not Is that where the term bird comes from? In Cardiff, others face prison sentences

of anywhere between a month and three months or for the same crimes If you're going to steal a pigeon you want a Cardiff Jewelry and a Cardiff Magistrate Six months Because then you'll get off You won't get off scot-free

but you'll do less time in Swansea If you were in prison, Ellis would you admit that's what you're down for? I would say murder. Yeah. And then I would hope that no one looked into it. Yeah. I'd say, and I only got six months because the judge was so scared of me.

He was too scared to give me more than six months. Even children weren't immune to punishment. Eleven-year-old William Edwards received six weeks in prison under whipping for stealing a single-team pigeon in Swansea in 1864. In Swansea, they came down really hard on any kind of pigeon larceny. Wow. And in 1879, 13-year-old Francis Williams from Cardiff received six strokes of the cane. I mean, it's not a pleasant punishment,

but you'd take the cane of a prison, wouldn't you, for pigeon larceny? Yeah. You'd be hoping for the cane. Even where birds weren't stolen, the items necessary to make a loft, such as wooden boxes, might well be. This happened in Aberday in 1903. The result, no box and a fine of 40 shillings,

or two quid, which was an awful lot of money back then. Wow, that must have been, yeah, that's a load. An indication of the value of pigeons from a newspaper article published in 1890 when one man went to court in Newport claiming a pound in damages. One of his flyers had been shot dead by a rival fancier. I mean, this is like gangster stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

Shot dead. A quid, right, which seems like a lot of money. But as the newspaper pointed out, a pound is a small sum to ask for a homing pigeon. £15 and £20 are ordinary prices. And for one particular bird in South Wales £100 is asked. £100 in 1890 is worth

about £10,500 today. That is worth more than my car. That's crazy. That pigeon must be unbelievable. Imagine telling your wife that you'd spent £10,500 on a pigeon. Oh, I've done it again.

What have what? I've treated myself to what? I've treated myself to South Wales' best pigeon. How much did you spend on it? £100. What? What I don't understand is, how much joy do you get?

Because of those pigeon raisings and stuff. I don't get it. Because they let them off from one place, and then they fly back to your house. So you just... Where's the adrenaline rush there? Pigeon fancying just does not do it for me at all. Also, currently...

So I imagine if you do it today, you release your pigeon, and because we can drive, you can get to the finish line ahead of the pigeon and see who wins. Surely... Well, some pigeon races are like 600 miles. pigeon and see who wins. Surely. Well, some pigeon races are like 600 miles. Oh, really? Okay. Wow.

Well, back then, there's no way you are getting there before the pigeon. So you're not even getting the satisfaction of seeing your... Unless someone else goes and releases it for you from the start point and you stand at the end. I don't know. I'm not quite sure. But I'm just... Yeah, it's where the satisfaction is. You'll just get there and your pigeon

will be home already. It'll be tucked into bed. It'll be having a cocoa. Doing stretches in an ice bath after the... He's on a static bike just doing some recovery before the next race. Anyway, that's pigeons. Huge part of the

sporting culture of South Wales absolutely incredible yeah amazing I one little thing you mentioned there that in one street

there could be four or five houses with all these it must have been really noisy yeah yeah like I'm just trying to it would have pissed me off

a lot of poo everywhere as well like if you the streets must have been absolutely covered surely unless they're all kept in their boxes but imagine

that every morning the dawn chorus there's 400 pigeons just going go go go go piss off I'm working nights

shut up that's it for this week thank you so much for listening and if you enjoyed what you've just heard hey why it's my turn to beg for a rating and review why not jump on your podcast app give us five stars and tell us that you've enjoyed it if you have enjoyed it if you haven't enjoyed it keep it to yourself but it does help with a little thing called discoverability so there's other history fans out there who have no idea this podcast exists. Your rating and review will make a difference. It's all about community, Chris, isn't it?

It's about creating a community. That's what we want to do here. Yeah, exactly. And if that's a bad thing, if creating community in this divided time is a bad thing, then, you know, so shoot me. And also, if you've seen any dodgy relics and also have you got any ideas around one day time machine we're going to end this show with the jingle that i'm going to create for one day time machine send them in hello at oh what a time dot com that's it for this week until next week bye it's the one day time machine it's the one day time machine it's the one day time machine it's

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