Oh What A Time... -  #74 Long Journeys (Part 1)

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

This week we’re packing our bags and heading out on some of the longest journeys known to the annals of history. From the travels of Herodotus and how he put Judith Chalmers to shame, Charles Dickens on tour in America and two books on the subject of being a vagrant in the USA at the dawn of the 20th century. And now they’re we’re at the dawn of the AI apocalypse that may wipe out humanity and therefore, worst of all, podcasters too; there may be no finer time to send us an email than now: [e-mail] If you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - two bonus episodes every month! - ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older. Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. and Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that appreciates we are in the era of late stage human podcasting. Tom, El and I have just been chatting, you missed this, but I just revealed to El that Google have released a tool called Notebook and it's an AI generator. Basically you can input different sources into this tool Notebook and it will create for you a podcast on the sources you've submitted. The podcast is a man and a woman just having a casual conversation about what they've learned of the sources you've inputted. And there...

Will Barron It is so chillingly realistic. Jason Vale Really. Will Barron It's incredibly conversational. So Chris just at random chose the French Revolution and he uploaded a few Wikipedia articles about various parts of the French Revolution that he was interested in. And suddenly we've got a 12 minute long podcast. And if you told me, oh, have you heard this podcast by so and so? There's nothing on earth that would have made me think that it was AI generated. So this is the last Oh What A Time. We're bowing out before AI pushes us out. We've had a really great run. We thoroughly enjoyed doing these, but we have now been replaced by robots. So yeah, Tom's going

to go back to writing for TV. If the thing is, Ellis, if you kept that quiet, can they not replicate our voices? Can we not get to a situation where we're releasing 15 episodes a day and people think we're just really putting ourselves... Maximum content. Subscribers get 403 episodes a month and that's just on a Monday. Releasing 25 hours of content every 24 hours or something. Yeah, yeah.

That's it. Does it genuinely sound like normal conversation? Yeah, even though they interrupt each other, it is absolutely terrifying. Let me play a bit in for you Tom, listen to this. I think it's a question that people are still debating, you know. I mean he was thrust onto the world stage at a time of absolute chaos and upheaval, right? So to understand him, I think you have to understand the world that he was trying to build. Okay, pause. Can I tell you the bit that I find most scary about that?

The woman going, hmm. No, it's the slight pause before the word chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the absolute chaos. So it's even got the rhythm of someone groping for the right word. That is so scary. They'll never have to do a second take. They'll never make a mistake. It will be perfect every time. Nowhere what a shame corner.

I really thought I'd found my thing. Because the thing with TV, for instance, you've got to have some commission. So there are gatekeepers. People are like, actually, we don't need to make this so you can't make it so you don't have a job. Anyone could do a podcast. I thought finally this can sustain me until I retire. And the boffins at Google, they had to, didn't they? They had to ruin it. They had to. Well done. Nice one. Yet again, boffins ruin the world. I don't actually mean that, but you know. Who owns Google? Who's the person behind this?

Some anti-Welsh wanker is what I'm going to say. With that in mind, I've had to diversify. I'm doing a Welsh language stand-up tour, so if you fancy coming to the record for S4C, it's at the Lyric in Carmarthen on the 23rd of November. I'm doing 6pm and an 8pm show. See, I even made a little mistake there. I said I'm doing 6pm. I'm doing a 6pm. This will never happen with AI. This is what people will yearn for in a few years. The authentic mistakes of the human podcaster. What's the selling of the things?

That's why Dennis Norton, it'll be alright on the night, was so popular. People just love the human mistake. If you're a Welsh speaker in London, I'm doing four nights on the 18th, 20th, 21st and 22nd of November in the run up to the gig. So most of the other Welsh shows I've sold out apart from Prochele in the 9th November. Do check my social media. You see, you don't get this with a Google generated podcast. Absolutely. And also it's worth saying you should go and see Ellis' shows because this could be one of the last times you'll see an actual human on stage doing standard before AI,

Mr Google ruins that as well and it's just a box. It's a cuboid making noises and it's ripping it admittedly, but it's lost something. A cuboid making such fantastic observations. About life as a cube. Do you think when Ted Rogers introduced Dusty Bin on 321, people were like, it's beginning. The AI revolution. Look at this, Dusty Binn on stage, the revolution has begun. The sci-fi writers from the 70s and 80s, this would blow their minds, wouldn't it? I mean, we listened to this podcast, and I've got to say, I learnt an awful lot, and I'm all for it. Yeah, I've lost my job, I'm going to have to retrain, I'm going to have to diversify.

We listened to a few minutes talking about Rupierre and the terror and things like that and it was really, really, really effective. Will Barron However, I would say, Ellis, a large part of our podcast, The Charm, is not actually the history. It's just the telling of stories from our lives where things have gone horribly wrong. Ellis Right, yeah. Will Barron So, on that note… Will Barron These two fake AI people. So this cube boy is going to be like, oh, he didn't charge me. I was on low power mode for ages,

and then he charged me and it was fine. On which note, would you like to hear a little story from my week, which relates to the subject we're talking about today? Oh yeah, go on then. So today, so at the time, we're talking about travelling and long journeys. And I went on what felt like a long journey on Friday from London, pannington to Bath Spa on a train. And it felt like a long journey because it was just me and my two kids. Okay.

So a six year old and a three year old. Crucial information here is that the three year old is currently learning to potty train. Okay, I've done that. So he's moved. Yeah, it's quite stressful period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For everyone. It's not ideal.

I think, yeah. We are finding just rogue shits around the house currently. That is a thing that's happening. Claire will say, look under the kitchen table and there's a poodle. Okay, all right then. So, it's price. And you say, sorry, it's a bad example. I shouldn't really be doing it for the kids. But I needed to go. I don't think it's helping my son, but what can you say? What can you say? It's one of dad's things.

We were recording a particularly long episode of I Woke Waste of Time. I couldn't get away. Ellis had to be off to his gig and I just, I had no option. I turned off the mic, if that's any solace. I muted, Claire. I'm not an absolute beast. My three-year-old, he's moved from nappies to pants. That's the important information. We get on this train and on the way to the train, I'm like, can I put you in a nappy?

I think it's probably safer we put you in a nappy. He doesn't want to go in a nappy because he's not a nappy guy anymore. They move from a point where like no that's the old me. I'm not that guy anymore. Who do you think I am? That's four days ago. It's a completely different world. I've rebranded. Exactly. I'm pants guy now. So we go on the train. It's a really packed train. Is this on the Sunday on the way coming back? This is on the Friday on the way there. So it's really, really busy. I've put our huge suitcase down in the suitcase area midway through the journey and inevitably my oldest son and me smell something and the three-year-old has pooed his pants. And that's just, you know,

that's part of life at that age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The circle of life. It's a circle of life. It's a good laugh. Because it's such a busy train, I can't get back to the large suitcase where the stuff is and also Claire has told me that the nappies and wipes are buried in the middle of the suitcase. I just can't face going down the caries to get that.

So I go… Well, you have to. No, it's so busy. The gangway's full of people as well. What's the alternative? Well, the alternative is to go to the sliding door toilet, which is an RN of the carriage. Oh, the little one. The little ones.

Yeah, yeah. The one where you press the button and it slides shut, or it slides open. So I pick up two kids, I walk to this, it says out of order on the sign. I can't go in that. So first problem, that toilet, I can't this, it says out of order on the sign. I can't go in that. So first problem, that toilet, I can't go in there. We keep going down the train, we end up going into one of those tiny little side toilets. Oh yes, yes. You know the ones which are like a plane toilet?

Yeah, the one with the mechanical lock rather than the electric lock. Yes. That's the perfect description. And there's no space to move. No, no, no. It's not like I'm a small man, but it's not really beginning for me. And you're much taller than I am and you've got two other humans in there. Righto. Okay. We go into this small cubicle. It's so small. My only option is to put the six-year-old

on the toilet with the toilet seat down. The three-year-old stands on the small area in front of that and I crouch down and I clean my three-year-old stands on the small area in front of that and I crouch down and I clean my three-year-old's bottom with the one by one squares of tissue paper that come out. Oh my god. How bad is this? How bad is what you're looking at? It's pretty full on. Okay.

It's very real. There's no getting away from the fact of what's happened. It's not a smudge. It's got heft. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I'm cleaning this. We haven't even got to the bad bit. Because Charlie, my older son, is sat on the toilet, I can't put the now pooey toilet paper, I'm so sorry listeners, is sat on the toilet, I can't put the now-pooey toilet paper I'm so sorry listeners about this into the toilet because he sat on the toilet seat which is down Yeah, of course And also there is no visible bin where I am, so I decide to start putting them up on the sink bit with an idea that when I'm done I'll take him off the toilet seat, I'll put it down, I'll wash it all up

We'll all leave, okay? I think that's a mad thing to do personally. Do you? Okay, well, it's me and that's where we are. Yeah. The problem is as well is those, the little side toilets, because I catch a lot of trains, the little side toilets are always way dirtier than the big ones. Yes, it was an ideal, great observation, great observation.

So I'm piling the tissue on the sink, the pooey tissue, which I will then deal with when we finish. Unfortunately, at a point the tissue got so high that it set off the hand dryer, which then blew the tissue into the room and, this is not a lie, it landed on my head. Oh my god. Who sat down? So I'm crouching down and it's landed on my head. Oh my god.

I'm now wearing a hat. A cr- please refer to it as a crown. Which is made of 50% tissue, 50% excrement, which I would describe as not ideal. Like, um, like the crystal maze, like the end of the crystal maze, when all the bloody silver and gold tokens are being blown around the little dome. But in this version, you have to avoid the silver and gold tokens in this version of the crystal, in the pistol maze. So it's flying around, it lands on my head, I can't believe this is happening. The six-year-old's pointing out how smelly it is. I think, yes it is, and it's on my

head. Yes, I get it. Unbelievable. We finish up, I dispose of the pants in the bin, which I find up behind me. If I'd known the bin was there, they would have been fine. I get up, I go to wash my hands, and of course the soap's not working and the water's not working. Oh the water's not working? The water is not working either, neither are working. Only the hand dryer, the one thing I didn't need to be working. So anyway, that's my journey down. The reason I mention it is because today we are talking about historical journeys.

Oh my god. And it felt apt to bring that up. I've got a little bit of French for you. Hoisted by your own pootard. Oh my god. There you go. That is horrific. What did your wife say? What did Claire say when you got home? She just laughed for about five minutes. Yeah. But in her eyes, as she was laughing, I could see no surprise. And I think that's what hurt. There was no surprise that she'd been... She didn't

seem surprised she'd be told this. If you know what I mean. It makes complete sense this has happened. Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. I would like to apologize also to the person who's cleaning out the bins at Great Western, because there was a pair of Spiderman pants that you were not expecting to see. And I'm sorry, if you listen, you now know why. Oh my God. Oh dear.

So as we say, today we're talking about great journeys in history and before we get into that, should we do a little bit of correspondence? This is a quick email, which has really made me laugh. Thank you so much, by the way, to everyone for emailing in. We love your emails, they're consistently brilliant. This is from Aini McGuire. Aini, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Her email, simply titled Chomps. So we've talked about

Chomps a lot on this show. Yeah, Chompod. About the price of the Chompod. Chompod, exactly. The price of Chomp and how they've changed over history. Hi boys. When you were chatting about Chomp bars, I thought I have to tell them my Chomp story. Love that sentence. So delightful, isn't it? I simply must tell them my chomp story. I simply must. I simply must. I was a head chef for many years. In one of my kitchens I worked with a young kitchen porter who probably smoked too many special cigarettes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We've all been there. One afternoon we were about to have a tea break

and I asked him to leg it to the shop and get us all a treat. Something small, you know, like a chomp. I know. Yeah, get six chomps, I say, and we'll have a cuppa when you get back. That sounds like a nice job. It does. Yeah, it does. Chomps that. No. Well, the chomp boy. Yeah. All top restaurants have a chomp boy. Who's sent out into the community to find chomps. We often talk about the jobs in history we could have done. I could have been a chomp boy. Who's sent out into the community to find chomps. We often talk about the jobs in history we could have done. I could have been a chomp boy.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We'd be chomping at a bit of it. Now listen, Ellis, would you like to guess what mistake our little chomp boy made? Well, I mean it's a fairly simple task, isn't it? She's asked him to go and buy six chomps. Yep, that's right. And they'll have a cup of tea when he comes back.

Chris, like to guess what the chomp boy does? Comes back with, I don't know, 20 chomps? Nope, better than that. He returned with six lamb chops from the bitch's counter. Oh, it's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. It's so funny when you include the fact that they're going to have a cup of tea when they get back. Because there's absolutely no relation to a cup of tea.

Oh, so you can't do... you can't... you can't... it's not a meal for a tea break, is it? Just a lunch. Also... No one has ten minutes off between ships and with a lamb chop. Also, in your standard office, there's not a grill. How is he thinking you'd cook? No, it's a kitchen. It's a kitchen.

They're working in a kitchen. Yeah, absolutely. Which brings to the point they probably have lamb chops there anyway, to be honest. So he's returned with six lamb chops on the butcher's counter, regard Aini. Well that's really made me laugh. What an amazing thing. What was he thinking? What was he thinking they were going to do?

That's fantastic. That smacks of someone who started a job and is panicked that they're going to get things wrong and is too nervous to ask again if they've misheard, they've just gone with it. And his second guest, he's told himself, she can't want me to buy six chomps. Does she know I'm a stoner? Oh God. Will Barron Absolutely. He gets there, she's only given

him £2.50, which is enough for six chomps. And he's going, oh God. Now he's having to pay out his own wages for the lamb chop. Jamie Bounds Yeah, amazing. Will Barron There you go. Brilliant. So any work, mishaps, anything like that which relates to our podcast, send them in. We love your stuff. So thank you for getting in contact, Ane. Here is how you get in contact for the rest of you. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show.

You can email us at hello at earlwattertime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Earl Water Time pod. Now clear off. So this week on the show, I'll be talking about what it was like to be a vagrant in late 19th century America via two books. I'll be talking about Charles Dickens' trips to America.

And first of all, I'm going to talk to you now about the ancient Greek historian slash travel writer Herodotus of… now this is a really hard one to pronounce… Halicarnassus, who lived and worked in the 5th century BCE. Now, this was a man who was an observer, a critic, he was a lover of an anecdote and of snarkier sides of the places he visited, and he's a man who compiled the first well-known list of the seven wonders of the world. He sounds like a good podcaster actually. He really does, yeah.

Yeah. I like to see AI trying to reimagine him. And he'll be joining us for our live show in December. So at this time there were these seven wonders which kind of infused themselves into popular thought. People sort of were fascinated by these ancient wonders. And Herodotus set off to compile a list to basically write about them so that people who couldn't travel there could experience it for themselves. Let's call him what he was. He was a blogger.

He was a blogger. Yeah, exactly. One of the early bloggers. Infinite scroll, that's the phrase. Oh, nice. Thank you. So he set off from his home in Greece and he traveled to Southern Italy, then to the Greek colonies on the Isle of Sicily, to the Levantine city of Tyre, to Babylon, to the Black Sea, to Anatolia, and then on to Egypt. And what helped with much of this was that Greece was well connected with the Eastern Mediterranean by sea.

So there were vessels constantly criss-crossing across the region in pursuit of trade, bringing passengers back and forth. Now that's the first point of this travel which I find really interesting. Now obviously you book a plane, you go there, you show your ticket, you get on. Then you'll be turning up at ports for boats that happen to be travelling to places and you basically have to argue with yourself or convince them that you should become part of the people they take. Will Barron Like Thumb in a Lift. Will Barron Exactly. That's exactly what it was like. Do you think you find that quite exciting as an early point? This real who's going

to take me? Is there even going to be a way for me to get there? Will Barron To use a very football Welsh analogy, I went to Moldova to watch Wales play a few years ago. And in 2018, I think it was, or 2017, and we'd first played them in 1994. When I went, there were two and a half thousand Wales fans, because you could fly direct to Chisina, where the game was. In 1994, it was the first time Moldova had ever played, because obviously they had previously been part of the Soviet Union. And there were 40 Wales fans in attendance. I think they got as far as Bucharest in Romania, and then had to get the bus from Bucharest to Moldova, which took hours and hours and hours. And they were held at gunpoint at border control,

because all these Moldovan soldiers simply couldn't believe that they'd come to watch Wales play football in Moldova. Obviously Moldova didn't have a team to that point. It was Moldova's first ever game, which they won incidentally. My friend Mark was playing chess against a bloke with a Kalashnikov. Then eventually after hours they were like, okay, well the game's clearly happening, so we'll let you go to the match. And they went and we lost, I think we lost 3-2. Obviously they had to reverse the journey to come home. I simply would not have bothered. But there were like 40 Wales fans who were like, we've got to watch this game. And it was 1994. It took them days to get there. And now it's so easy. Will Barron So you lost, because Moldova during the

90s was very much the time where you'd see them on TV in like a game and it would be like, they'd tell you the story that the striker was also a poster. Will Barron Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Will Barron That is what it was. And this guy here is a primary school teacher. Will Barron Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Will Barron And they beat us. Will Barron Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will Barron Okay.

Will Barron And 40 fans travelled for 15 weeks to see that. Will Barron And I know about 10 of the 40 who travelled. Will Barron Yeah. And 40 fans travelled for 15 weeks to see that. And I know about 10 of the 40 who travelled. And I will never not be impressed at the efforts they went to, because now it's so easy. Absolutely. And I just think that, but you know, nowadays you wouldn't do it because you'd think, well, there's a direct flight to blah blah blah, so if they're playing there I'll go. But in those days days that was just, you didn't know any difference. You're like, well if I want to get to these places I've just got to do it. And also, I mean, if you have the mind for it, the genuine unknown must be so exciting. The

fact that you're turning up, you're hoping that these boats will be able to take you to the right place. If you have, Chris's face isn't convinced by that, but if you have the right mindset for it, it must be amazing. My friend Mark said, I had him in check but he had a Klasnokov so I let him win. I get stressed enough lying when I know I've got a ticket and I know the destination is locked in. The idea of like, well I'm going to turn up to the port today and have about eight hours of arguments and hopefully then I'll spend the next week travelling to my destination.

And will there be a pret on a Leon? Exactly. This is equivalent Chris, of you turning up to Heathrow and having to convince the pilot to let you on his plane. So these boats were set off. If you convince yourself onto one of them, then you'd be on your way. Some of the passengers who went on these boats also incidentally wrote travel books of their own. For instance, there's a book called Tour Round the World where a writer called Hecateus talked about where his travels took him. Now remember this is in ancient Greece, it's amazing. And as far as we can tell from the surviving fragments, he went as far as India and modern-day Sudan. Isn't that incredible? From Greece. Right.

I did my ancestry DNA. I am 100% Welsh and also 100% West Waelian. My DNA stretches as far north as Aberystwyth and as far east as Rhedamand. Doesn't even get as far as Swansea. They might have been doing this. My relatives, they really were staying put. My ancestors really were staying put. On the bus route, it at a push is basically what your ancestors are willing to risk.

Well Herodotus was not like your ancestors. He really had this thirst for travel and his main drive was to reach Egypt. He wrote about these other places. He wanted to see the other places, but really his absolute fascination was with ancient Egypt. It was an ancient culture which the Greeks were fascinated with generally. They just wanted to hear as much as they could about it. I think it's incredible to think, it gives you an idea of how old the pyramids are, how ancient ancient Egypt is, that even at the time of ancient Greece and these writers, it was this ancient civilization that people were fast. That shows you how distant

in the past it is. It's incredible, isn't it? How deep into the past ancient Egypt is. So, he makes it to Egypt. He travels around on little boats on the Nile. He toured around numerous temples and other religious sites. And like any other tourist to Egypt, he couldn't resist visiting the pyramids – have to, I guess – and he was blown away by what he saw. This is what he wrote, …the pyramids were greater than words can say, and each one of them is equal to many works of the Greeks, great as they may be. Have either of you been to the pyramids?

No, never. No. Yeah. I've never been to Africa. It's a thing I'd like to. Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah, it'd be amazing to see up close. I'd love to climb it. You know, when you see it, obviously up close it's just like big blocks of stone. But you look at it and you think, I could probably climb to the top.

And what would you do at the top? I don't know, just go, woo! Pose for a selfie. It's To hold up a West Ham flag. Plant a big West Ham flag at the top and then slide down. It's mad that you can walk over the O2 but not the pyramids. Well, to be fair, the O2 is modern and made of metal, and the pyramids are ancient and made of crumbling stone. Yeah. So I think that might be your main argument.

I'd probably walk way over it. I think more people want to walk over the pyramids than the O2. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, if you let one person, you'd have to let everyone and then they would be destroyed within hours. Exactly. Also during his time in Egypt, he noticed cultural differences. He wrote about these as well in his guide. For example, he tells us Egyptians don't like beans. That's one of the things he picked up on. They don't like pigs, apparently. Egyptians are not a fan of pigs. And the crucial

one, he says, they wash all the time, unlike us Greeks. So that was his thing. He just slightly put out by the fact that the Egyptians were so clean. Interesting. Wow. Which I'd actually see that as a good thing. I'm not going, guys, check how cleanly this lot out. Yeah, check out these losers and their soap. Exactly. As someone who likes to shower twice a day when possible, ancient Egypt feels like

a place for me. So his travel writings, it's worth saying, were already old by the time Alexander the Great's empire allowed the Greeks to properly travel far into Central Asia, developing a genre of travel writing and guidebooks, which aimed to lead the tourists to the right sort of place. So it was a little later that genuine guidebooks really came to pass, but it all kind of started with his early work. And tourists in Greece did use guidebooks even back then. Here's what the Greek poet Antipater of Sidon wrote in the first century BC. This is what someone's written after using a guidebook to visit these places. The idea of people using guidebooks back there is just fantastic.

Fascinating. It feels such like a modern thing, doesn't it? Right, here, grab a lonely planet, go to ancient Egypt. The rough guy to ancient Egypt. Exactly, yeah. I imagine you're sort of going into the path and it's got one of those stands with all the little... You remember those things in the nineties? Will Barron Yeah, different languages. Will Barron Where have you gone? Holiday, yeah, in a B&B. Exactly. Here's what he wrote, I have set eyes on the wall of lofty Babylon, on which is a road for chariot, and the statue

of Zeus by the Alphaeus, and the hanging gardens, and the colossus of the sun, and the huge labor of the high pyramids, and the vast tomb of Mausolus. But when I saw the house of Artemis that mounted on the clouds, those other marvels lost their brilliancy. And I said, Lo, apart from Olympus, the sun never looked on aught so grand." So these people were influenced by this work. They took on these guys and they travelled the world and they were just blown away by what they saw. And what I love most is that in so many of these places, we can see evidence of ancient tourists who were just amazed by what they saw. There's ancient graffiti at the site of the pyramids, which says, those who have not seen this place have never seen anything. Blessed are they who visit this place. These ancient words scratched into rocks from people who traveled there on their adventures thousands of years ago. It's just

incredible. Yeah, I love a bit of ancient graffiti. But I suppose the final big questions are, how long did these travels take and what did it cost? That's kind of an interesting point. Well, to take you through our hero's journey, Greece to Alexandria, well, Halicarnassus to Alexandria, more exact, a journey of 800 kilometres across the sea took about four to five days depending on the season. Then he went to Athens, which added a day or two. Then going from home to Sicily took 11 days with several stopping points along the way, including on the island of Crete. So some of

these journeys, to simply get to your destination, it was 11 days of travelling, how are you feeling about that? Will Barron Do you know what would frighten me? It's not the getting there. It's that when you're there, it takes long to get back. Will Barron If you don't like it as well. Will Barron Yeah, it's a bit like that feeling you get when you're in the sea and you realise that your feet can't touch the bottom anymore. And you're like, God, it's actually very, very deep. Will Barron Is this it? Is this the moment where I've misjudged

it? Mason Hickman Have I been stupid here? Because swimming is now the only option. Will Barron Yes. Mason Hickman Shit. Will Barron And it's at that point, although I'm literally just off the coast of Norfolk, I'm now convinced they're sharks and immediately panic kicks in. But you think to yourself, if it's taken you 11 days to get to something, you're like,

f***ing hell, I've forgotten something. 22 days, like my favourite pen. Then you've got to go back again and then return. So it's 33 days over all with you, I don't know. Oh, my driving licence. Damn. And I can't hire a car now. But do you know what? What blows my mind is, like, if you get a flight to America or something like that and it's like eight hours, you're like, oh my god, eight hours, like, what am I going to do? Versus like four months of your life. Like, it's insane. But also so easy to go off grid.

Yeah. Like my mate Carl, who you know, Tom, he went traveling to Greece in 1991. No one knew where he was. Really? Because it was pre-internet. So every couple of weeks or so, he'd send a postcard to his mum and that was it.

Because obviously he couldn't afford to. I'm alive. Yeah, like he couldn't afford to ring anyone because international phone calls were incredibly expensive and he was a student. So that was it. Where's Carl? Greece. How is he? I don't know. That's very recent relatively. I have a feeling, especially at the point where we are with kids, that we're not going on any of these long trips of family holidays. I am saying every summer I think once again we're immersing ourselves in the local community.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if my son or daughter decide to go travelling to Greece when they're 21, they'll be getting a WhatsApp every 10 minutes. Drop a pin. Let me know how you are. I haven't heard from you in 30 seconds. I haven't heard from you since a minute ago. Well, El, it wasn't just the journey time that was a problem. They weren't safe journeys either. There was a risk of shipwreck, violence if travelling by road, and often piracy.

And on top of that, it was not cheap. I mean, you'd think the shipwreck pirate stuff would bring down the cost a bit, but it really didn't. It was prohibitively expensive for anyone who wasn't unbelievably wealthy. Researchers at Stanford University have put the journey from Greece to Alexandria at around a hundred dinarii, which is three months' wages for an ordinary worker. Mason- Also.

Toby- Three months for the journey alone. Mason- You'd have to take all your currency with you. Toby- Yes. Mason- So if you got mugged, it would be game over. Toby- Exactly. Mason- If you lost it, it's game over. Mason- No travellers checks, forget it. Mason- No travellers checks, no debit card, no credit card. Also, you've got to be sure

that the people in the other country are going to accept your currency. Mason- Yeah. There's no travel X. Mason- No, no, no, no. There's no euro. This is actually a pain in the arse. My Welsh ancestors, who didn't go anywhere, I'm all for it. Well done. They nailed it. I'd also argue, this would be my argument, guys, we live in Greece, which is basically holiday anyway. We live in a holiday destination. We've got the crystal clear sea, we've got the sun, we've got the great food.

Yeah, weather's always good. We're on holiday. We've got loads of books because we're the absolute masters of philosophy. It's fine. Let's just embrace it. So, as a final point, I think it's worth giving some credit to these early writers because it really has influenced the modern idea of travel writing, the idea of travel brochures, the fact they existed in ancient Greece I absolutely loved. And it has allowed people to kind of see the world from the comfort of their own sofa without having to actually travel.

You could open a book, look at a photo and just see the wonders of this planet. So fair play to them for 11 days of risking shipwreck and spending their money to do that. It's left a legacy. So that's the end of part one. We'll be back with you tomorrow where I'll be discussing Charles Dickens visiting America and what will you have in your locker, Chris? In part two I'll be discussing what it was like at the end of the 19th century to be a vagrant in America via two books on that subject. And if you want to get to part two right now, plus bonus episodes, you can become a subscriber. I know what a time full-timer. There's all sorts of great things. What are they, Chris? Two bonus episodes every month, a whole catalogue of bonus episodes you'd never heard before, plus both parts in one go, early ad

free. Ad free, there you are. Ad free. The crucial part. That's right. I mean, if you love adverts, then don't sign up. For all that, go to owhatatime.com, otherwise we'll see you tomorrow. Chris, why don't you give all of the benefits like you're announcing it at the football

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