Oh What A Time... - #81 Spies the Sequel (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

This week we’re returning to a much loved subject: spies. We’ll be hearing about the British spy William Oliver, the origins of MI5 and MI6, plus how the Stasi operated in East Germany.Elsewhere, this week we’ve been discussing exactly how massive milk used to be; we can agree from ‘Milk Bars’ to sponsoring the football league cup, it was simply an enormous beverage. If you’ve got anything to add on the golden age of milk, you can do so via: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wandery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wandery Plus in the Wandery app or on Apple Podcasts. Thank you very much for downloading Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide, and I know where I stand on this, if drinks options are now far better than they ever have been. And the reason I'm saying this is I've just recorded the Oh Brother podcast about the fall, which is presented by Paul and Steve Hanley, who are in the band, and they interview big fans of the fall of which I am, uh, very much, uh, I very much fall into that category and into that camp. I absolutely love the band and Paul Hanley, the drummer, when he was in the fall, he joined when he was very young. He was 16 and he just told me this because I've just finished recording it.

And I can't stop thinking about it because he was 16. All the venues knew he was 16. He was obviously too young to have a pint before a gig. So on his rider, it was four pints of milk. So he was going on stage to perform. Was one of the most era defining bands to have ever come out of Manchester. He was having a pint of milk before the gig. Because he said, there was too much sugar in Coke and lemonade, and Lucas Aide would make him go a bit silly before a gig. And too fizzy as well. So he was drinking milk. That has got to be the worst pre-gig beverage. Also, it's very physical being a drummer.

Yeah, but if you've got bones as strong as that from drinking so much milk, you're fine, aren't you? You're so calc- you've got such a high level of calc, you don't need to worry about it being physical. Yeah. Oh, his bone density is extraordinary. They're still talking about it. Barely lifted his arms.

Really slow drumming. So heavy. He destroyed another drum kit. He smacked them so much. It's such a dense drink. That's the thing, isn't it? It used to be. Apparently he was telling me, because obviously they're older than I am, apparently you could get milk on tap in some pubs. Is that true? What? Can't be true. Unless I misheard. It'd be quite an embarrassing thing to order

though, wouldn't it? Will Barron Well, there used to be national milk bars after the war. Will Barron What were they? I know nothing about these. What was this? Will Barron They were like cafes that specialised in milk-based drinks.

Will Barron The past was rubbish. Will Barron And there was one in Aberystwyth until amazingly recently. About 10 years ago, I think. But all of the fonts and stuff were the original 1950s fonts. So if you went in, it was like going back in time. It was like those, you still see them in London, the few pie and mash shops that are left, it is like going into a time machine. And yeah, this national milk bar in Aberystwyth

used to sell milky stuff. Mason Was there too much of a reliance on milk in the past? Will Barron Good question. Mason I answer that thinking full well the answer is yes. Will Barron Yeah, it's the kind of thing, obviously, boxers used to love drinking milk.

Jason It was really tied into health for a while, wasn't it? Will Barron It was, yeah. Jason That was a big thing. So it's tightly bound to that. So people thought they were looking after themselves.

Mason In my mind's eye, I can see pictures of footballers in the 60s winning the FA Cup and then drinking milk in the dressing room. Have I imagined that? Yeah, definitely know that is absolutely the case. I've seen footballers to give post-match interviews drinking milk after games in the sort of 70s and 80s. Wow.

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We loved milk. It was so big. Any of them going lips to teat in the dressing room, Ellis? As Daisy the cow is beckoned in. Milk was big. It's still big. But milk was ma- I mean it was the milk cup. We had a cup! The League Cup was sponsored by milk. is beckoned in. Will Barron Milk was big. It's still big. Neil Milliken Milk is big, yeah. Will Barron I mean it was the Milk Cup. Neil Milliken We had a cup! Will Barron The League Cup was sponsored by milk.

Neil Milliken Is milk Britain's biggest liquid or not? Is it Britain's biggest liquid or is beer bigger than milk? Obviously I think we can accept water is the biggest because it comes into all our homes. That's a given. Will Barron Milk surely is bigger than beer because obviously you can't drink beer until you're 18. Neil Milliken It has to be. Neil Milliken It's Britain's second biggest liquid then. given. Mason- Milk surely is bigger than beer, because obviously you can't drink beer until you're 18. Greg- It has to be. Greg- It's Britain's second biggest wick liquid then.

Mason- But then no one goes on the piss and drinks 14 pints of milk today. Greg- You only need 100 people drinking 14 pints of beer. Mason- My kids like milk, but the quantities they're having are so small in comparison with what you drink on a night out of beer. For the rock and roll thing as well, it's a hot room, gigs are hot, they're humid. Milk is not the... It's like that scene in Anchorman, isn't it? Where it's a really hot day and he's drinking the milk saying milk was a bad idea.

Yeah, that was a bad choice. That's surely true here as well. It's a bit laggy at that level. When you're drinking that much, it just coats the mouth a bit. It doesn't just drop, you know, it's not as smooth as a beer. Imagine curdling on the drum kit in front of 2000 people every night. It's one of those things. When you're 16, you can just do that stuff. You could drink four pints of milk, drum in the fall, and then just go home. Will You drink four pints of milk and it

doesn't touch the sides? Will And it'd feel no ill effects. Whereas yeah, if I... Like I've just finished a stand-up tour, if I'd been down in a pint of milk before going on stage, the first five minutes would have been an absolute washout. Will Just belching. Yeah. Leaning on something. God.

Well, Ellis, I saw your band, Hex, support The Fall. That's how long we've known each other. So brilliant in Cardiff. That was amazing. One of the best moments of my life. Yeah, yeah. 2007, I think that was. Yeah.

What was your pre-gig drink? So if their drummer was drinking milk... It would have been a cup of tea because we had a band-based ban on beer for the bigger gigs in case it went wrong and then we'd say, well you've had a bloody pint, you've had a few pints, so that's why that's gone wrong. What were you having? No, no, all that. It was a cup of tea. A cup of dark. A division of milk. What's happened?

I'm going to say it, Ellis. Rock and Roll is not what it used to be, is it? We had a band-based ban on beer for the big gigs. Yeah, it was a cup of tea and heroin. Wow. That was remarkable. Well, good on that guy. Even talking about milk has made me feel heavy as we go into this podcast. I just feel a bit… I feel claggy just having talked about it. Milk was a big deal.

We should do a podcast on milk bars. Okay, great. Because they were massive in the UK. I wonder if you could do a full episode on milk. So one would be the early farming and how milk production came about, then you've got your milk bar topic, and then maybe the Milky Bar Kid or something silly like that as a third topic. Yeah. Great. Full episode on milk. Any other milk subjects that people want to send in?

There is one left in Ellesmere Port. There you go. There's a milk bar left. So it's the one in, long before Cost and Starbucks, there were milk bars. And what can you order in there? Cold milk and warm milk? Chocolate milk? It was started, found, Robert Williams Griffiths founded the National Milk Bars franchise as a way to get his farm's milk products directly to the public through the cafe chain. Frothy

coffees, cream cakes, ice cream, milkshake. So they've broadened out from basic milk? Yeah. So in, for instance, because the Guardian newspaper was based in Manchester, it was the Manchester Guardian to the 50s. And so there was a national milk bar next to the Guardian office in central Manchester. They were a big deal. And it was, there was a revolution in youth culture in 1950s, rock and roll. And people were going to milk bars, having a milk and they'd sit to rock and rolls on the jukebox.

Renowned academic Richard Hoggart, in his book, The Use of Literacy, which is a great book, described what he saw as typical jukebox boys and the new culture observed in Milk Bars. Girls go to some, but most of the customers are boys aged between 15 and 20 with draped suits, picture ties and an American slouch. So they would go on to be the Teddy boys. You know, they were sort of inspired by the sort of dandy era. It like, it wore, or Edwardian era sort of fashions with like the drape jackets and the

dream pipe trousers. Yeah, and they'd be in the old milk bars listening to tunes on the jukebox. It sounds quite good actually. You won't have experienced this, Ellis, of course. There's this moment around 4am at Arcadia, one of the big dance areas in Glastonbury where everyone's off their tits on MDMA, and there's a collector of murmuring about where people go, oh they'll be bringing out the milk soon. Michael Eves will be coming out with a tray of milks and there's this whole bit of excitement and they all stagger down the hill. Will Barron In January 1952, the Guardian journalist Norman Shrapnel quoted Salford's Medical Officer of

Health, who described them as sinister places where young people flock at night when they ought to be in bed. The public official blamed increasing rates of illegitimacy on these snack bars and milk bars of an unsatisfactory type. He wasn't blaming all milk bars, but he is what he darkly referred to as the other kind. So you had dodgy milk bars. There's me thinking, what a pathetically sweet time for you Teddy Leasers drinking milk. And some stuffy old politician going, oh, this is the edge of society. Oh my gosh. Gangs of kids, hoodlums drinking milk on the street corner. Oh, there's the bit in, that's where the gangs go in Clockwork Orange.

Really? Yeah. Tough boned gangs of kids. Yeah. Yes. Wow. That's amazing. A glass of milk in the old ultraviolence.

So there you go. So, do you want to do that? Let's do a milk special at a point. We will do that. We could even do the milk cup. There you are. There's a nice – the history of the milk cup, the sporting angle. I'm tremendously defensive over the League Cup. This will come to the fore in our milk

episode. Imagine how much money there was in milk that they're sponsoring the League Cup. Yeah. That never happened. Thatcher snatching the milk, there's loads of stuff you could chuck in there. isn't there? It was the energy drink of its day. Right. We need to text Darryl. There's definitely a Darryl Loewer story and Darryl Leeworthy, there has to be an episode in milk.

Is it too bold to say that I now think there's two episodes in milk? I genuinely think we can do a milk double. The first one will be semi-skimmed, which is lighter stories, and then the full fat episode will be the really heavy stuff. Yeah, that's where the violence comes in. Exactly. The milk double. If genuinely, if anyone listening has any idea for milk-based subjects that we could cover, I'm really up for this. Send them in. Let's see how many – let's see if we can do – the dream is a milk triple. I don't think that's possible, but send in your ideas for that subject.

The marketing bods buying milk. As soon as they hear this podcast, our adverts, we're going to be doing host reads, live reads, host reads. Tom, what's your favourite drink? Well I'd have to say, it's got to be milk. Milk is the only nutritionally perfect thing. And if everyone drank more milk, the world would be a better place. We'd all be six foot nine. We'd all be six foot nine. We'd all be bodybuilders. I don't know if you've heard, but people are calling it the new Huell. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Huell version 1.0. Can't wait to see Gary Neville doing a hostage like ad read for milk. My name's Gary Neville. I love milk. I drink it every morning. When I was playing for Man United, Sir Alex, the only thing he told me was, as long as you drink milk, you will one day win a Champions League, and he was right. After every match, he'd invite the rival manager back into his dressing room and they'd

share a glass of milk. The only one who wouldn't have a milk with him was Arsene Wenger, because of all those weird ideas he picked up in Japan when he was managing Nagai Grand Posse. But I tell you guys, who wouldn't enjoy a glass of milk? Because we know from the movies it's shaken, not stirred, it's martini. Who is it? Bond. James Bond. And what is Bond? James Bond is a spy.

He is a? And that's what we're discussing. He's a spy and what is his subject today? We are discussing spies today and how they've been influenced by milk. So, yeah, all of those Le Carre novels, all written under the influence of milk. Ian Fleming the same. No, we are discussing spies this afternoon. So, what are your subjects? So today I'm going to be telling you about the man who started MI5, a guy by the name of K. Oh, okay.

Not his real name. I've got a British spy for you called William Oliver, who operated in the north of England in the early 1800s. Oh, lovely stuff. And I will be discussing the Stasi in East Germany, but before that, I think we should read some of your correspondence. Let's do that. Now, I had a little dip back into our DMs because we get a lot of messages there as well. People suggesting show ideas and stuff like that. I thought, oh, I should really check that out more. And here's one I caught from a couple of months back that

I hadn't noticed. I don't know if it's true or not, but I think it's quite interesting. This is from someone called TheRealTobias. He has said, I finally have a Corrections Corner submission that I am confident about. This takes us back a bit, this one. Cuneiform, remember that? We talked about that, which is the writing into stone or clay, wasn't it? Is that right? Cuneiform was done using a small wedge-shaped stylus being pushed into the wet clay and then fired. So we talked about this.

We thought, well, we suggested early tablets were scratched into hard stone when in fact it was wet clay. So this is the first correctional corner he points out. We have talked about this before. But the second one is one that is interesting. I have another one. Quills, which is something I talked about in the Scribes episode, quills are made from the flight feathers of birds, those being the sturdiest feathers. Right-handed people would prefer flight feathers from the

left wing and left-handed people prefer the right. This is because the slight curve to them allows you to write with the nib end facing the parchment. Quills are also carved feathers, they aren't just feathers plucked from the parchment. Quills are also carved feathers – they aren't just feathers plucked from the bird. That I also didn't know. But isn't that interesting? If you are left-handed or right-handed, depending on which wing you take the feather from and the quill be made from, it would suit your writing style better. My little sister's left-handed and my son is left-handed. And you're left-handed, aren't you, Tom?

Yes, I am left-handed, yeah, yeah. And you realise, when you're with left-handed people a lot, how right-handed centric the world is. Yeah. Absolutely. Like scissors is a good example. Watching a left-handed person try to use scissors. Yeah.

It had never occurred to me that that might be problematic. It's a nightmare. So my children are often asking me to cut things out, and we'll have right-handed scissors, and I'll be doing it, and I'll be thinking, okay, surely I can just do this, can't I? Because I'm an adult. I just need to aim it. It'll be all right. And I'll cut along the line and then I'll take it out and be nowhere near the line.

I think it doesn't make any sense and it's so frustrating. Like I can play the guitar. If you try and play the guitar the other way around, it is impossible. It's very odd how something that should be so simple actually suddenly becomes difficult. But you know, even that writing left to right, when you're left-handed and when you're using a quill and wet ink, surely you're just smudging all your manuscript with your palm as you go. We've all seen Tom Crane's handwriting. your manuscript with your palm as you go. We've all seen Tom Crane's handwriting.

It's... Exactly, absolute mess. It must have been so hard. No, well, I did talk about this. It was much harder for left-handed writers. It really was, because the wet ink would smudge. That was exactly it. So far easier for right-handed writers.

Another example how throughout history I am part of an oppressed minority. And people need to wake up to that. There needs to be change. No, there are things, it is sort of frustrating. There are things, scissors is like the classic example. That's the big one. And you can get left handed scissors, but you know, I just haven't got around to it. So it'd be 42 years.

It'd be 40 years, exactly. Yeah, yeah, completely. So there you go. So that is interesting. Do you know what? I had an idea for a little bit of format pointing, I thought our friends, our listeners might enjoy. Can I chuck it in? See what you think? Please do. What, of course, is Britain's most loved format idea?

One Day Time Machine. One Day Time Machine, exactly. I've got an addition to One Day Time Machine. Okay. Which is, if you're going back in time, it's basically like the desert island disk. You can take one thing back with you to help improve your life in a certain time in history. Let's say, okay, you're going to live a new life back in the Victorian times or in the Iron Age or whatever. What is the thing you're taking back with you from the modern age to make life more bearable? That

is the thing you're taking back with you from the modern age to make life more bearable? That is the question. Obviously, you wouldn't be able to take, say, your phone or a computer because the internet wouldn't work. Nope, exactly. So you would need a tool probably of some sort. Maybe an exceptionally sharp knife. I mean, a screwdriver would be pointless. Your computer would work for about eight hours before it ran out of battery. So you'd have an eight hour window. You know internet, but you can still impress people for eight hours.

But you'd just be using it for word. Or playing snake. Yeah. I think it's safe to say though, Ellis, I think it's safe to say that the people of middle ages would still be impressed by word. I don't think they're going to be going, well, it's just… Yeah, but I don't think they'd be that impressed. It's just a manuscript you can immediately delete on a screen.

They might be impressed, yeah, for the hour you can show them before the battery runs out. But Ellis, can I just pick you up on suggesting that you'd like to take back a sharp knife? Because I'm pretty sure you can go back any time after the Bronze Age and someone be knocking about with a sharp knife. Yeah, of course. That's almost as bad an idea as the phone. Yeah, um, toothbrush and toothpaste, initially. Yeah.

But if you're the only one with good teeth... Oh! Oh my god! Pain relief! Oh yes, that's a good one. You take back a box of paracetamol. That's a really good one. Or a stronger one, just in case.

I'd go stronger. Yeah, yeah. Traumadol. And then bring it on. Oxycodone, or what it'sone. Yeah, codeine. Yeah. I think the creative thing. Yeah, exactly. And then he'd be like, I am indestructible.

Punch me and I will feel no pain after about half an hour once it's kicked in, once I've taken it. Have you got any water? It's quite a big tablet. Well, a similar note about bringing something back that I was actually thinking last night. I keep talking about the fact I'm watching Wolf Hall, which is brilliant. You've got the Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell drama. If you're not watching it, I don't know what you're

doing. But there was a bit last night where Henry the Eighth had a band. There was a little occasion in which there was a band playing music for him. And I thought everyone talks about when they think about going back in time to play modern songs, it's always that Gary Sparrow in Good Night Sweetheart. It's always going back to like the 40s and playing some Beatles. But I was thinking last night, could you go back to Henry VIII and drop some Coldplay? What would he make of like Paradise of Yellow? You know what I mean? Surely that's far more exciting a musical adventure. How are you playing it? Are you just playing the chords on a lute? What a sweet middle of the road choice from Chris there as well, to go back and play Coldplay to Henry VIII. No disrespect to Coldplay, but that is just sight of all the choices

he could have gone for. Or are you somehow playing the record as is? Or are you just playing the chords on a piano or a clavanova and saying this is what songwriting's like, where I'm from? Jason Vale Yeah, I think if you were taking back, I think, okay, here's the two things I would do. If I've got a band, if I've got a loop player, if I've got medieval instruments or Tudor instruments and I could do a performance of Yellow and I'm happy to sing it, that's my one option.

If I'm taking back a Bluetooth speaker to play Henry VIII, then you've got to be going garage. You've got to be going R and B, something that cannot be played. Because I think I would be quite excited to absolutely blow his mind if I'm taking back a Bluetooth speaker. What are you playing Henry VIII

on your Bluetooth speaker that is going to make him go, what is this? Well, if you're going to make use of the instruments in the room, the easiest is Mumford and Sons, because they've got that sort of sound of like loop players, all that sort of ulta. I'd play Hex Induction by the Fall and I'd say, believe it or not, the drummer was recording this, I mean, I'm just at a pint of milk. And that is the thing that makes Henry VIII fall off his throne. Yeah.

Milk before a show! I think rage could be quite good, but rage gets the machine. Heads up Henry, this song's about to get very, very rude at the end. I tell you what, wouldn't it be great to put a ten song setlist together for Henry VIII on your Bluetooth speaker? The question is what you're trying to achieve from it, Chris. Blow his mind! Obviously!

You don't want him sitting there going, sounds a bit like green sleeves. But once his mind's been blown, what are you hoping to gain from that? Back in the one day time machine, get out of dodge. Yeah, I reckon he'd set the guards upon you actually. If you played him some sceptre or something on a Bluetooth speaker, I think you'd end up in trouble. Yeah, you with the axe poised above your head, you going, this was a bad idea. Yeah, this is by Stormzy, Grubbinthorne, I mean that's just sort of farmland at the

moment but it'll be a very, very different place in about 500 years' time. There you go. Well, Chris, I hope you get to achieve that dream one day and you come back on this podcast and tell us how it went. So if you have anything you want to send to the show, be it one day time machine ideas, things you take back into the past to make life more bearable. What are you playing to Henry VIII on your Bluetooth speaker? Good question. And what do you want out of it?

Yeah, that's the question I think. What are you hoping to achieve from this? Because that's something that isn't clear in my mind at this point. What about any piece of music played to anyone from history? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who are you picking? So, you know, are you playing the Sex Pistols to Joan of Arc? What do you want to get out of that? What are you actually hoping for? Yeah. Edward the Confessor here in Def Leppard. What does he make of it? William the Conqueror, so solid crew, 21 seconds.

That's good. John the Baptist. Yeah, girls are loud. And Flowers. By some garage artist, to go with it. The Queen's version of the National Anthem to Winston Churchill. Yeah, I don't think you'd like it. The one on the rooftop, yeah. Yeah, George Washington hears the Jimi Hendrix version of Star Spangled Banner. Feels to me, I'd not say a little bit.

All of the above courage. I like this. Any drummer based to Stonehenge Man. Yeah. In a cave so that it really, you get- Oh, really resonates. Yeah, it really resonates. Bouncing around the cave. There you go. If you could play any song to anyone from the past, what would it be?

Tolan Man, Juicy by Notorious B.I.G. It's still going. Still going. What about this? Imagine by John Lennon to Hitler. And let's see if it changes things. Very nice. Very nice.

Yeah. Very nice. About kindness and friendship. Yeah. It doesn't speak English though, does it? Do you know what? I reckon Hitler would dismiss it. I think you'd say. It, very nice. That kindness and friendship. Yeah, it doesn't speak English though, does it? Do you know what? I reckon Hitler would dismiss it. I think he'd say, it's quite sentimental, no thanks.

I am going to conquer the Sudetenland. Yeah, as you were. Right, if you want to get in contact with the show, there's many ways to do it. Isn't it exciting? We live in a modern time, and here's how. Alright you horrible lot, here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at earlwatertime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at earlwatertimepod. Now clear off.

In part two, the third section, I will be discussing the Starzy in East Germany. What about you, Tom? I will be talking about the man who helped create and then run MI5, a guide by the name of Kay. I want to tell you now about a really famous British spy, Oliver the Spy, AKA William Oliver. And actually, I've been thinking about spying today, knowing we were doing this subject. Do you remember when

the NSA, the NSA Prism program leaked? This was a program in the United States where it was discovered that the NSA was spying on Facebook and your emails and text messages. Oh yeah. And there's a huge controversy about 10 years ago. But what do people think spies are doing? I don't know. We were about to talk about spies. They're spying.

Yeah. It always struck me as, well, that's kind of what I think spies do. When they were spying on Facebook, were they just reading your Facebook? Yeah, unless you posted this flat five paragraph copy and paste thing that's good doing the rounds about opting out of the spider. They're all at the FBI headquarters going, oh, look who he's poked. I bet he fancies her. He's actually in a relationship. Oh dear. So world leaders writing in a relationship, but it's complicated. And that's when you

know their sort of relationship with their public is sort of, is iffy, it might be the time to invade. So I'm going to take you back now to just after the Napoleonic Wars. Britain is a society on edge. What's interesting as well about the Napoleonic Wars, after the Battle of Waterloo, that there isn't a major war in Europe for another hundred years, just under a hundred years. Now, not until the First World War, 1815 to 1914. Yeah. Mad to think that. Really? Well, yeah. Long period of peace. just under 100 years, not until the first World War, 1815 to 1914.

Mad to think that. Really? Well, yeah. Long period of peace. But right at the start of that period of peace, the country is radically different. You've got a huge demobilization of forces because there's no wars to fight. So you've got high unemployment, men being freed from kind of army duty, put back into society, many of whom don't have jobs.

The other big impact on the economy is that they're not creating as much war materials. The price of iron ore is slumping hugely because this whole economy doesn't need to buy as much iron ore. Again, there's no wars to fight. That's what I find so overwhelming about economics, because I've read a few sort of popular economics books, and then you realise how interlinked everything is. And it's very difficult to take all of that into account. So you've got all of these unintended consequences from, you know, changes to the budget, etc. So there might be a war in one place, and suddenly that affects the price of oil where you live,

and then that affects employment, and you're like, fucking hell, can we all just... survival where you live and then that affects employment and you're like, fucking hell, can we all just... This is too much. Do you think it's time to kill global trade? Just completely become an island nation again. Hyperlocalism. That's what I... Yeah, yeah. You're not allowed to consume anything that's made with it more than 10 miles from where you live. Back to a basic British veg diet. Oh God, I've been in so swans. Yeah, get those turnips. Everything's made here. Pull the turnips out from the garden. Let's crack on. You've also got the Corn Laws, which meant an increase in the cost of the price of bread.

And then basically, although there's no wars by kind of the end of 1815, the wars that had been fought still needed to be paid for. So you had really high taxes being introduced. And the end result of this is that you've got strikes in industrial quarters, notably at the major ironworks in Merthyr Tydfil, among weavers in Lancashire, there's riots in London, mass demonstrations. And then finally in June 1817 in the Derbyshire village of Pentrick, an armed uprising calling for various things,

including the wiping away of the national debt. I would suggest it's quite a confused list of demands thereafter, but essentially they want revolution. Now amongst the unrest is one man who just seems to be present the whole time. He is William Oliver, known to history as Oliver the Spy. Oliver told the Home Office that he was from Shropshire. His wife Harriet came from Cambridgeshire. Oliver spent 30 years living in London, working in the building trade, either as a carpenter or a surveyor. He didn't refer to himself as Oliver the Spy, did he? That feels like your first mistake

as a spy. That was the first line on his CV. This is interesting, right? So following Peace in Europe after 1815, he found his work drying up in the building trade. By 1817, he's run out of money. And being an enterprising sort of bloke, I would never think to do this. What he did is he literally wrote to the government and offered his services as a secret informer, a government spy. And the government are so paranoid at this point that they go, yeah, right. Imagine writing. Like writing, do you want, I can be a spy if you want. Yeah, it sounds legit. When is this? What year is this?

1817. 1817. So he's working as a carpenter. So there's no prior experience in espionage or any of this sort of stuff. No. He just, wow. Presumably there's some sort of interview. Yes. Unless the application was just so world class.

Huge pressure on you to turn up in disguise. Yeah. I imagine it was like this, Ellis. The interview is a satire along table going, he should have been here 10 minutes ago. Where is he? And then they hear a voice in the corner of the room. Yes. And then he steps out of the dark into the light and he's wearing that funny note of the moustache.

Yeah. You've got the job. Comes out of a plant pot. Holding one of the panel's phone. I've even worked out the passcode. Oh, that's good. It was your birthday. It was actually quite easy. 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 One, one, one, one, one, one, one, one. Come on. What's interesting as well is that the government are well up for having more spies on board because this is 1817. So it's not that far removed from the French Revolution, which is not even a generation before. So people knew that, you know, the revolution was something to be scared of. Yeah. So they knew about the violence and the retribution that came along with the French Revolution. So

the government government were really interested in quelling any kind of rebellion. They were super hot on it. So when Oliver wrote his letter in, they're like, yeah, great. So this is another thing about how parochial life seems to be in 1817. So he writes to the government, asked to be a spy, and then the Home Secretary himself, Lord Sidmouth, says, yeah, all right, this is what you're going to do. Like he's setting the task. Is there like a hundred people in Britain at this point?

It seems much simpler, doesn't it? It seems much, much simpler. Imagine that! Because it does feel like a loop. There's an issue there that someone who is not an ally could get in contact and go, I'd like to be one of your spies, and it would immediately be within your inner work. Because now I assume that if you were to get in contact with the Home Office, certainly for the first time, you'd be talking to a chatbot on the website. You'd go through to the Foreign Secretary. That's incredible.

Fech- Yeah, so basically a lot of this trouble is happening up north, like the north is rebelling. So Lord Sidmouth goes, okay, I want you to infiltrate the Northern radicals, do whatever's necessary, stir it up, get in there, figure out what's going on. So he goes up there and there's different kinds of people who want to rebel. You've got people called like who are operating on a moral force. This is wrong. They're thinking the way that society is working is wrong. So with them, he goes in and he goes, why don't you try something a bit more forceful than just a petition? He's kind of stirring it up. And the people who are more kind of physical force campaigners, he's like, go into open rebellion, come out into the open, pull together tens of thousands of workers and go on the march. So he's really stirring all this up.

He's getting in there, he's infiltrated them and he's telling them essentially what to do. The whole time he's doing all this, he's writing back to the Home Office saying, okay, this is how the groups are organised, this is how they're communicating, these guys are the ringleaders, these are the numbers, the organisational strength, this is what they're going to do. Wow. Is he stirring them up with a mind that if they escalate the way they are acting, that the government can come down on them, or the police or whatever it may be. I think his tactics are to bring them out into the open. Okay, I see. So then they can be dealt with.

Like, try and make it more extreme, come out into the open, publicly march, kind of accentuate the way they're feeling publicly, so that they can be brought down and commit crimes. Will Barron But I would say that's not spying then, is it? That's stirring up dissent, which is a slightly different thing. Neil Milliken It's a bit like being a club rep, isn't it? On a holiday and you're trying to whip up a group of 200 lads. Will Barron Go on, drink that kind of beer through a sock.

Go on, it'd be great. Yeah, exactly. Pass this ice cube along the line with... You're not allowed to use your hands. It has to be mouth to mouth. I was such a sucker for those club reps on lads' holidays. Have you done them? I've been on... No, I haven't been one, but I've been on holiday with lads and the guy goes, two for one drinks

and it's absolutely going off, mate. You and your boys in there, no entrance free. Go in there, buy a drink. All right, I'm in. There's no one in here. Like the in-betweeners movement. Yeah. William the Spy could have so easily stitched me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If he's walking around a bar with one of those holsters with vodka shots in, he's making a killing, isn't he? Chris, go out there, have a go at the

government, everything, let's go for it. All right, yeah. He's on the phone to Lord Sutmouth. Honestly, this Chris Skullmape from East London, he is thick as they come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's doing that thing, he's saying to you, Chris, it's four vodka red balls for 20 euros, you're like, yeah, he puts the shots in, and then at that point you realise it's one can of red pool

spilt across the four cups, which is always, you get a tiny little bit, you're like, oh no, he's done me again. He's done me again. Third night in a row. One newspaper wrote of William Oliver that his duplicity consisted in his appearing to side with the disaffected by the sentiments which he uttered and even fomenting the spirit of faction, which existed while he was at the same time in secret communication with the government government to which he gave information of all that was being concocted. Will Barron Yeah, he strikes me as a bit of a shit actually. Will Barron Yeah, he's a bit of a shit.

Well, I think it gets worse. Will Barron I tend to come down on the side of the disaffected usually and I don't like this bloke. Will Barron The newspaper added that he was able to get dozens of men into a bar on the promise of fishbowl drinks, which did not materialise. He would have been a great club rep. And being told that, I quote, there are loads of birds in there, mate. Many in the early 1800s regarded him as the best club rep in Valoraki. So then he got involved and exposed in the Pentrick Uprising.

The Pentrick Uprising happened on the night of the 9th of June 1817. 200 men were gathered, stockingers, quarrymen, ironworkers. They marched from South Wing Field to Nottingham. They were armed with pikes, scythes, guns. They wanted a revolution, a wiping out of the national debt. William Oliver was very much involved in getting these guys out on the street. They marched and then at Guildbrook, the revolutionaries were met with what is described as a small force of soldiers.

They arrested 40 of them and the rest absolutely scattered. They were organized, they went out and then as soon as they met the slightest bit of friction, it all just collapsed. The leaders Jeremiah Brandreth, Isaac Ludlam and William Turner were caught. They were then hanged and beheaded at Derby Jail. Wow. I don't think you need to hang and behead someone, do you? That feels a bit… Well, you can't do it the other way around. That's the problem.

But surely it's just one or the other, isn't it? It feels a bit much. That's quite a weird thing to be happening in like 1800s, because I consider that a kind of Tudor execution, where you're trying to pile up multiple executions in one. Yeah, but there were still hanging people in Britain until the 50s. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't you tell me the last hanging in France still hanging people in Britain until the 50s. Yeah. Yeah.

And didn't you tell me the last hanging in France? I remember that was like the 70s. No, it was the guillotine. That was the guillotine. 1977. Well, Star Wars was in the cinema. Incredible. Yeah.

A fourth leader, George Waitman, was ultimately transported to Australia back when that was a punishment, which I've always thought if you're like life in prison and beheading or you've got to go Australia, I'm absolutely fine with that. But I don't know why that was considered as bad a punishment back then. Maybe someone can tell me. Will Barron Do you know what, there was still capital punishment in the UK until the 60s in 1964. And when they got rid of it, it was MPs who thought it was right to get rid of it, even though I think about 70% of the British public still wanted capital punishment.

Toby – Wow! Really? Will – It's one of those moments where basically the MPs, they didn't have to vote how their constituents thought they should vote, if you know what I mean. It was a kind of sort of vote of conscience. Toby – Got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Will – Whereas now, you know, I don't – minority people want to bring it back now.

But yeah, you're sort of – the MPs were sort of progressive and slightly ahead of where the general public were at the time. I remember it was, it scored quite highly on things people were looking forward to after leaving the EU, the return of capital punishment. Really? Is that true? Goodness me. And we're still waiting for that boon. So the employment of Oliver as a spy was controversial. As spies are controversial now, the Home Office was criticized when the facts were made public.

The liberal perception was that the government had lost its moral compass. And there was a debate in parliament about whether spying was appropriate in a free and fair country, which is still a fair point. Going back to that original point I made about the prison program. If you're going to have spies, you've got to accept they're going to be spying. But is spying right? Who knows? Will Barron Yeah, it's a bit like, I very, very vaguely

remember the controversy around Spycatcher, the Peter Wright book. Jason Vale What was that? Will Barron Because he had been in the MI5 and he wrote a very, I think it was called the Candid Autobiography of a Senior Intelligence Officer. I've actually got a copy somewhere and it was banned in England, but it was published in Australia. I think they could probably publish it in Scotland. And you gave away quite a lot of secrets, essentially, or how the workings of it. And also just about how it worked. It was a very, very controversial book.

I think Tony Benn, he was reading from it at Speaker's Corner and that kind of stuff, and he talked about the ethics of MI5, NMI6, and how government operated. So it sort of blew the gaff on spying. And it was a massively controversial book. I remember buying a copy, I think I got mine on eBay. It was absolutely fascinating. Will Barron It feels like the best way for governments to approach that would be to say, we think that spying is not okay in the modern age. It feels an uncomfortable thing to do in terms of relationship with other powers. Just say

that and then just continue spying. Surely the very nature of the very nature of spying, because you don't want people to know you've got spies, you might as well double down by saying you don't have, you agree that the whole idea of it, the concept is disgusting and then just keep spying. Isn't that just making your life easier? I just googled it. In Midnight in 87, Mr Justice Scott lifted the ban on an English newspaper reportage on the book. In late July, the lawlords again barred reporting Wright's allegations, Peter Wright was the author. The Daily Mirror published upside down photographs of the three lawlords with the caption, you fools.

British editions of The Economist ran a blank page with a boxed explanation that, in all but one country, our readers have on this page a review of Spycatcher, a book by an ex-MI5 man, Peter Wright. The exception is Britain, where a book and comment on it, have been banned. For our 420,000 readers, there, this page is blank. And the law is an ass. Wow.

I love it. Great quote. I'm going to read it again. I'm going to read it again. I'm going to read it tonight, actually. Is it still banned in the UK? No, I think they made it... They can buy it. It made him a millionaire, Peter Wright. Wow. Amazing. Is it still banned in the UK? No, I think they made it... It made him a millionaire, Peter Wright.

Wow. Amazing. Back to William Oliver. So after the Pentric Rising, he left Britain and he settled in Cape Town where he died in 1827 in his early 50s. In exile, he adopted an additional surname. To lose the tale, to get people off his case, he called himself William Oliver Jones. Come on mate. You used to be a spy. Surely. He claimed to be a simple builder and surveyor but no one believed him. They all knew he was Oliver the spy. He sounds like a wanker.

What were the giveaways he was a spy? When he was, he'd be sat reading the paper. Yeah, it's the two holes constantly in his newspaper. It's always a giveaway, isn't it? Foolish. Wow. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? But you're right, Ellis. He does feel like someone... You don't particularly warm to him in that story, do you? No. Fascinating bloke. And also amazed at his solution to unemployment and avoiding becoming destitute was to send a letter to the home office or the foreign office offering his services as a spy. I mean nowadays you just start a podcast,

don't you? Hope to get some decent advertisers behind you. Please leave us a five-star review, it really helps with the algorithm. Will you get a reply nowadays if you sent a letter into the home office asking you to be a spy? Would you get even a polite sort of catch-all send back that they would send to people which covers a lot of stuff? Would you get, thank you for your letter, I'm afraid we will, whatever, or would you just get nothing? Please do it. Just do it, Tom, and tell me how you get on.

Yeah, please do. But then I'll be on some list. And if you don't tell us how you got on, I will assume you are a spy. Exactly, I can never be trusted again. Fair enough. So that's the end of part one in this episode on spying. In part two, I'm going to be talking about the guy who kicked off MI5. Ellis, what are you going to be talking about? I'll be talking about the star sea in East Germany. Yeah, and if you want to get that straight away now, ad free. Also get our two bonus episodes a month, first dibs on live tickets, all this

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