Oh What A Time... - #84 Christmas is cancelled (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Pull down the decorations and throw the tree in the street; because this week we’re discussing a few of the attempts through history to cancel Christmas. You can expect an appearance from Oliver Cromwell, Maximilien Robespierre will pop up too, as will all the critics of Elvis Presley’s 1957 Christmas album.And this week we’ve got several great emails on the subject of “who are you playing a song to from history and what song are you picking and what do you want out of it?” (Snappier title for this feature very urgent). If you’d like to chip in you can email: [e-mail]).If you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR LISTENERS!Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wanderi Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wanderi Plus in the Wanderi app or on Apple podcasts. And welcome, it's Oh What A Time. You know, I've just been to New York. We're living in this age now where you can just jump on a flight and go there. Even that still blows my mind, even though we are essentially living in the future. But you know, when I was out there, I saw a little fella by the name of Donald Trump. Did you? Well, I saw his motorcade. Did he get out of the car? Yes. Well,

you know what? I was walking down Fifth Avenue in New York and I was like, oh look, that's Trump Tower. And then suddenly I was like, oh look, there's a lot of police around. And then I was realized, oh they're stopping the traffic. They're not letting anyone go past. And then I saw these Secret Service guys come out into the middle of the road with their headpieces on. And then about 15 big escalated cars with the secret lights kind of flashing. And they rolled into Trump Tower and then he went into a tent and then up into the building. But it made me think, like, it's interesting, isn't it, when you think of these great figures from history and whatever you think about him, he probably is a great figure from history now, with all

these world leaders, like the protection around them, the importance of that individual to a nation as powerful as America. There, I witnessed it. I witnessed that power. And also, you know, it's amazing how little security there was around politicians until relatively recently actually. Yes. And obviously, you know, because of the assassination attempt and stuff, the security around him would be crazy, but you were near the world's most powerful

person. Yeah. Yeah. And he was near the world's most powerful podcaster. Yeah. Little did he know. Well, that's my resolution for 2025. Become the world's best history podcaster. Watch out, Sandbrook. Watch out, Snow. What you really need, Ellis, is an assassination attempt mid-record. Oh yeah, but for me to survive it and then for it to be amazing for my brand.

To stand up, punch the air and finish the other guy. Yeah, bleeding from the ear. Exactly. Wow. That's amazing though, Chris. That is pretty cool. There is a weight to these sort of like powerful politicians that I think is different to the presence of other people I've met. I was writing on a show once and I remember Tony Blair came in and he did have an air. There was something different about him.

He wasn't in power anymore. This is about 2012. But as he walked through the room, there was something different about the way he, I felt a sort of presence. I know that probably sounds ridiculous. Do you know what it made me think? It made me feel as a British person, like, which is not a significant a country as American, it really dawned on me.

When you think about Keir Starmer getting around, like I was thinking about when he became Prime Minister, there was like, there was like three cars. And he's just kind of driving up Palau Mau. They're not really stopping. They're not really stopping the traffic. He's just going to see the king. They went to Pratt. Your private is, they went to Pratt.

His was an Uber pool. He was with like four, four tourists. Like he can pretty much do whatever he wants. It just made me realize that we're quite an insignificant nation. When you got Trump, like it was mad. There was like 15 escalated cars, probably like 50 Secret Service guys in the street, just to drive around.

Will Barron But also, four American presidents have been assassinated. And also, there have been unsuccessful assassination attempts on lots of others. There was an attempt on Andrew Jackson, there was an attempt on Reagan. Obviously there was an attempt on him. I think it was an attempt on Gerald Ford. So for centuries they've had to be under heavy guard, the president. Whereas here, Theresa May can run around in a field of wheat on her own, with no concern. No one's... In a place where there might be pheasant shoots. There's no concern. She'll be in danger. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a good spot. Yeah, good spot. Well done. That's a very good spot. Well done, mate. Who's the most impressive celebrity you've seen in the wild, Alice? In the wild or met? In the wild. Out and about. Ever seen anyone? I saw one last week. Oh, who was that?

I was on Getting onto the Elizabeth Line and Hollywood star Zendaya. Is that anyone? I saw one last week. I was getting onto the Elizabeth line and Hollywood star Zendaya. Is that right? I'm pronouncing that right? Who is like the big Hollywood star at the moment. She's the lead in June. All these things. What, is that the two? Getting on the Elizabeth line as well. Yeah. Getting on her own as well. I'm 100% sure it's her. Okay. Just going about her day. Yeah. But sort of head down quite quick. It was, you know,

Oxford City into into sort of Elizabeth Lyons right on. But yeah, growing up in West Wales, doing politics A level, we got the bus to Westminster. So the school minibus to Westminster to watch a debate when I was about 16, 17. It's a lot of Welsh kids from Carmarthen all on the way to London. We all got very excited because London seemed massive and it was full of stuff we'd only ever seen on the news. And we were stuck in traffic and Paul Merton walked past and the minibus went mad. Oh my gosh, Carmarthen! We've made it!

We've made it! We've hit the big time! And it was just like, this is what happens here. Did you get his attention? No. He was just sort of looking wistful in a big coat because it was very windy. I remember thinking this is what happens in London. Yeah, yeah, this is just living. You meet famous people actually. Or you're in a bus next to them in traffic.

And they don't even give you a passing glance. And they don't even give you a passing glance because it's windy. Have I ever told you about the first celebrity I ever met when I was 10 years old? Oh no. My dad took me to Butlins. We went to Butlins on a family holiday and the kids' entertainment that day was a cooking lesson by, at the time this lady had a cooking show, none other than Cheryl Baker. Oh wow.

I met Cheryl Baker. Eggs and Baker. Eggs and Baker. Doesn't really work, does it, Eggs and Baker? Was that what it was called? Yeah, it was one of her shows. I couldn't remember what the show was called. It was like a personal Eggs and Baker for like me and like 20 other kids.

Wow. Was that her cooking show? Yeah, it was only presented by her why this is a genuine question Why didn't a production point of view focus entirely on cakes and baking and just call it Cheryl Baker? Just literally call it Cheryl the Baker and then just do Why are you putting on just do baking. That's surely from a streamlined commissioning point of view, the way forward. Eggson Baker is a Saturday morning Children's BBC music and cookery show presented by Bucks Fizz singer Cheryl Baker.

It was it was often shown in the early morning stock for the magazine show Going Live. During this time, Baker was still a member of Bucks Fizz and would often appear with a group on the show. The show ran on BBC One from 1988 to 1993 and I would say that I watched every one of them. Did you watch every Eggs and Baker? I was in Eggs and Baker completed.

I wasn't even a super Eggs and Baker super fan, but basically I got my own personal time with Cheryl Baker. I was essentially on my own personal episode of Eggs and Baker. I reckon she'd be nice. She was quite nice, yeah. She'd be a good mum She was quite nice, yeah. She'd be a good mum from history. Yeah, absolutely.

Born in Bethel Green. Bearing in mind we haven't brought up that subject in this episode, Ellis. It's quite a weird thing to sort of... That's a correspondence issue that came up in a previous subscriber's episode. So to othernesses, Ellis has just for no reason mentioned that Cheryl Baker would be a good mum from history. Apropos of nothing. Ellis has just for no reason mentioned that Cheryl Baker would be a good mum from history. Apropos of nothing. We got an email saying who would you have your children raised by

from history? But new listeners won't know that. They'll just think that Ellis thinks she'd be a good mum, which is a nice thing to chuck in willy-nilly. I must just say, I think she'd be a great mum from history. Anyway, where were we? I'm just reading Cheryl Baker's Wikipedia page. She had the then world record for the longest on-screen kiss with Giles Brandreth. No. Three minutes and 33 seconds. Imagine that.

That is uncomfortably long to be on Delhi. I've met Giles Brandreth. Well, we've met both halves of that kiss. What an honour for both of us. Oh, both halves of a kiss. Listeners, have you ever met both halves of a kiss? Have you and your friend ever met both halves of a kiss? Ask your friendship group. See if you can find the full kiss between you. Today's episode, as we head towards Christmas is actually all

about anti-Christmas. Points in history where the idea of Christmas has tried to be crushed, ruined, all the joy taken from it. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. Will Barron So we've had so many great emails. Because one of our last episodes of last year was talking about this idea of going back in history to play music to famous historical figures. Who would you play it to? What's tune are you playing? What do you want to get out of it? So Debbie Roberts has been on greetings from down under chaps. The topic of what track would you play to whom from history? My suggestion might not win points for originality, but I believe it's entirely plausible. Debbie says, on the topic of what track would you

play to whom from history? Here's my suggestion. She says, I would play Take Me Out by Franz Ferdinand to... Who's she playing it to? Take Me Out. Oh, Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Archduke Franz Ferdinand. I was focusing on the wrong part there. I was focused on take me out. Patty McGuinness. Maybe Patty McGuinness. I initially thought Patty McGuinness. I thought surely not. Is Patty McGuinness a figure from Mr. S. Buzzy? He says, have a proper listen to the lyrics. It would be uncanny. Of course, there is the risk of altering the course of history,

but I trust the one day time machine has been engineered to sidestep any catastrophic ripples in the space-time continuum. Will Barron A little point about that. You would have to add the additional point that this is by Franz Ferdinand, because at no point does it mention in the song that this is by Franz Ferdinand. It's just a song by Franz. To really blow his mind, you'd have to add the point that this band is named after you as well. Yeah. Listen, Franks, in about two minutes time, an assassin, a sniper is going to make you very, very globally significant, okay? Then in the early 2000s, there's a sort of post-punk inspired

indie revival and Franz Ferdinand are a really, really big part of that. They're named after Bang! Sorry, oh god, sorry, sorry. That is a good one. She mentions the lyrics, I'm just reading them now. I'm just a crosshair, I'm just a shot away from you. I know I won't be leaving here with you. Oh. Yeah, do you think you'd get from that? Do you think there's enough clues in there that you're about to be assassinated? Wait a second, I should probably duck.

Great suggestion, Dr. Debbie. We've got another email here. This one's from Chloe Sharp. It's very simple. If I'm taking music to the past, she says, I'm playing Led Zeppelin's immigrant song to The Vikings. Oh, great. They would love that. I imagine they would like it. Yeah, because it's like a big, big stomping riff for big stomping people. We've got so many emails on this. If any of you have ideas of who you'd like to go back in time to play music to, do keep sending them in, because I think it's a really rich area. Have you decided by the way, Ellis, I think you were sort of mulling on it in the last step of the interview, trying to decide who you'd go for.

I think that I would play Barbie Girl to Oliver Cromwell, try and chill him out a bit. But do you think, I mean the concept of a Barbie doll would be so far from what... Yeah. It needs to be close enough that they can wrap their head. All right, I could do by black lace. Fine, fine. Come on, Oliver. Chill out. You're so serious. Fairy tale of New York, because he famously hated Christmas, didn't he? Yes, good show.

I've actually got an idea for who I would go back to and play music from from history. And it would actually be me when I was about 15 and I would play myself Radiohead, R.E.M. So some good rock music because at that point all I owned was the Lion King soundtrack and my heart will go on my Celine Dion. And I made a mixtape for the girl I really fancied in history and it was Wall to Wall Lion King, which in retrospect was a mistake and listener, we did not get together. So I would go back and equip myself with music that would give me more of a fighting chance that was the circle of life. She didn't even become one half of a kiss.

Exactly. So 15 year old me give them some decent records. That's the way forward. Oh dear. Well, there you go. If you can go back in time and play a song to anyone from history, who are you choosing and why, or how else do you want to use your one day time machine? If you want to get in touch with the show, here's how. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh what a time dot com. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh what a time pod.

Now clear off. Okay, so this week on the show, we're talking about anti-Christmas. I'll be telling you all about, once again, returning to the French Revolution to look at the Cult of Reason and the Festival of Reason. At the end of the show I'm going to be talking about the time, or well, arguably two times that Elvis was cancelled at Christmas.

And I'll be talking about cancelling Christmas more generally. Before I get going on this, what are your thoughts on Christmas? Love it. Love it. Love it. Can't get enough of it. Huge fan. Big fan. I actually, I'm too keen about Christmas and I get too excited and I will do things like buy an inflatable Santa's castle, which is what happened this year without checking with my wife. I can easily say you're a level above me because Chris in his front garden,

you may have it this year, you definitely did last year, a light up reindeer, like a fully light up reindeer. Oh, you're that family. It's still there, head's gone, which is a bit of an issue. There's a big one and a little one. I could probably take it, but the head is not lit up, but I've left it out there. It's his final Christmas. It's a bit sad because it's his final Christmas. Oh no, and then he's been put out of his misery. Jason Vale It's going to be shot in the head on a new

day. Will Barron By far the Christmas of Christmas Eve. Jason Vale You guys in terms of decoration are basically polar opposites. Chris has everything that is available in Habitat, whereas you have a tree that's just sat in the corner of your recording room waiting its next outing. Will Barron This is put up a holly wreath this year, which I think looks quite classy, actually. I love it because it's for everyone. I feel a bit embarrassed asking people to celebrate my birthday. Will Barron Yes, I'm exactly the same.

Will Barron The idea of sending a text to people saying, hello, I'm 44 on Mondays, anyone fancy a drink to celebrate me? I find it very awkward sending that text, because with Christmas, everyone's celebrating anyway, so you just kind of jump onto the coattails of that. But imagine how awkward that is for Jesus, Ellis. That's eight billion people celebrating his birthday every year. You must be walking around thinking to yourself, God, this is a fuss, isn't it? This is a massive fuss. Oh, Over me? Over little

old me? Muggins, yeah? Oh, wow. Loads of pictures of him on every mantelpiece. For some reason, people have got little models of him being newly born in their front room. His Facebook wall is an absolute mess. Also... He's only got 12 followers. Winter Solstice. Winter Solstice being on the 21st December means that by Christmas Day, kind of the long road to summer has begun.

Right, yeah. Because the days are getting lighter. True, yeah. And I love that. It's the long dark nights I can't handle and the short days. And how do you feel about Christmas Day itself, El? I imagine you find it a little bit stressful at times. Possibly. Am I wrong?

Eilish No, I love it. This makes me sound very, very middle-aged, but the advent of streaming has actually spoiled some things. I used to really love Christmas telly. But the thing with kids, they're so used to be able to watch the programs that they like whenever they like. They make absolutely zero concession to the fact that it's Christmas Day. So if Wally St. Gromit is on, which it's on this year, which I'd quite fancy watching, they'd be like, no, I'm watching Grizzly and Lemmings. I'm like, yeah, but you watch it every day. Yeah. And I love it. So sorry, Dad. Oh, there's a Bond film I've not seen. I'd quite like to watch that. Dad, Grizzly and the Lemmings is on. Oh, there's a Bond film I've not seen. I'd quite like to watch that.

Dad, Grizzly and the Lemmings is on. Yeah, but it's on all the time when you watch it every day. Exactly, because I love it. So in terms of the television, it will be no different in our house on Christmas Day. And what about the Christmas dinner? How are you with that aspect of it? I did it myself one year and then Izzy did it herself last year, and I offered to help, but when I did help, I made things worse.

Okay. So, you know, in the past we shared it, but now we're kind of, it's gone in a weird way where Izzy's like, no, no, no, I am going to do it, but I need you to sort of shut the fuck up and let me get on with it. To stay out the way, basically. Stay out the way basically. Stay out the way, yeah. Yeah, I made these sort of pancetta and parmesan Brussels sprouts last Christmas, which was my one little passion project.

And I spent maybe two hours doing it. And I can categorically say they were the worst things that have ever been served at any table ever. And I include, let's say the time of Henry VIII when there was probably someone's head as a centerpiece. It was inedible to an impossible level. There were sort of 10 faces at our Christmas table giving me a look that said, I would rather this was human exclamation. That would be better than what I'm being forced to eat. But because it's Christmas Day and because I've taken time on it, you can't be so honest about it. They're trying it best.

You can't see that at the table. But I tried one and then removed them from the table, which I think is the thing to do at that point. If you can tell, I'm sorry, these are no longer available. This is also very sort of boring of me. I actually now in my forties don't like the gluttony of Christmas. Oh, interesting. When we went on our honeymoon, I put on more weight in a week of our honeymoon than I'd ever done in my life. And I came home and weight in a week of our honeymoon than I'd ever done

in my life. And I came home and I looked like a different bloke. I looked like I'd been replaced by someone. I remember looking at myself in the mirror thinking, this has got to change immediately. Will Barron So this year you're having a turkey flavoured hule. Good for day. Will Barron Yeah. Turkey flavoured chia seeds is what I'm having this year in a bio yoghurt. I did my wine Christmas order yesterday, which is my great joy. So that's arriving this evening.

Oh great. I spend a bit too much money on good wine and I love it. That's my great joy. Not this about drinking. Your gift to yourself. I've got a wine advent calendar. Oh really? I haven't opened it since the fifth. So I'm going to have hell to pay in a few days. I've got a month of wine to drink. Christmas Eve when you're having to polish off the final 19.

Yeah, absolutely. So in answer, Ellis, I love Christmas, although I would say there's normally one point on Christmas Day when I spiral and have to go on a little walk just on my own, just for 10 minutes. Just get out on my own for 10 minutes and then I can return and sort of like reset. I'd always said that the people who go for a walk on Christmas Day are Tories. I'd always been all about... My ideal Christmas Day for probably till last year was like telly and milk tray. Okay, yeah. But then last year I did pop out for a bit

and it was actually quite nice. I'll talk you through my Christmas then, Ellis. See what you think of this if you think a walk is Tory. Okay, this is my childhood Christmas. Cause I was a choir boy. Christmas Eve, Nine Lessons and Carols, I performed at that. Okay. Christmas morning, I wake up and Carols, I performed at that.

Christmas morning, I wake up, Santa's presence, then off to do my first service of the day. I'd sing at the morning service, back home, Christmas dinner, open Christmas presents after Christmas dinner, and then back for another service I had to sing at. And then back home again. And in the middle of that, there would always be a walk through a field. That's what my... Will Barron Can I imagine Chris Skull's Christmas? Wake up in the morning, poppers. Will Barron Pop tarts. Neil Milliken Try and figure out where you are. Is it Upton

Park or is it the newest downstate? Which one? Will Barron Yeah, shit. Am I in town? But which town? Yeah. That's a good TV show. Drop someone off somewhere in the country, Christmas morning, and they have to make it back for Christmas lunch. They've got no clues where they are. I love that. The dinner's being served at two. Yeah. Wake up. 10 to 11 a.m. Pop tarts, some poppers, some amyl nitrate. Stare at yourself in the mirror, quick cigarette, splash of cold water, quick spew.

Raspberry flavored pop tarts because it's the same colour as West Ham. There's a theme developing here. Red wine, West Ham. Open the Blue Wickets, go again. Tell your family there are no presents this year. Bit of pornography on the phone. Because it's Christmas Day. Ellis, you said something to me once that I think about all the time, in terms of being a Tory, things that you can do that make you a Tory. You said to me once that if you buy a bottle of wine that you don't immediately drink, like you're buying

that bottle of wine just to have in the house. Oh yeah, for bests, to have in the house. That makes you a Tory. Every time I buy wine and I don't immediately drink it, I think I'm a Tory. And now when I'm going for my walk on Christmas day, I'll be like, we are such a bunch of Tories. Yeah. Oh God. Oh God. How am I going to vote at the next election? I like the Christmas day walk nod that you give to other people who are also doing a Christmas day walk that says, look at us, we're doing a walk on

Christmas day. Yeah. I know. Like Merry Christmas. I love it. I love a Christmas walk. I love it. And I love wearing the Santa hat on the Christmas walk. I love it. And I love wearing the Santa hat

on the Christmas walk. Mason- I also love pubs around Christmas time. There's just an energy to them that is different. Also I would say the two weeks leading up to Christmas is probably the best bit. And then obviously Christmas Day. But I find Boxing Day quite depressing because it's done then. Yeah. It's a weird day, isn't it? Yeah. It's not quite sure what it is, but I don't know. I like the leftovers. Yeah.

The weirdest day is the 27th, I think. Yeah. Well, my birthday was the 28th. Your birthday. By the 27th, the calendar for me has lost all meaning. Yeah. It's Boxing Day and then you're just counting down, is it New Year's Eve yet? That's really when I look to get back on board with the calendar.

Well, I can tell you something particularly weird, which you might have experienced, but listeners might not know about. So I write for quite a few telly shows and if it's a Christmas special, it's often recorded at best in early November, but there's genuinely a good chance it's been early summer. In the month, yeah. At best in early November, but there's genuinely a good chance it's been early summer. In the month, yeah. And the audience are forced to wear Christmas jumpers, the Christmas trees wheeled out, they all have to go, it's Christmas! Yeah, knowing it's May. And then you look at the audience and they're all suspiciously tanned. Everyone looks great. You think, oh, they're doing makeup on the audience these days. No, no, no, no. Everyone has been to

Faluraki. And you know the team captain died in late November, so this must have been done. So there's no way this could be live. It's a tribute show that is done from beyond the grave. It's incredible. Exactly. So there we are. So does that answer your question, Al? That's where we are with Christmas. Yes. Okay. Well, I'm going to start off the show with a thing that worries children constantly. That's the cancelling of Christmas. This is a common theme in lots of Christmas films.

Often when kids, when little kids are set the task of writing a Christmassy story, that is, that's something that they often go to. My daughter wrote a story about Christmas being cancelled this year, and you sort of read the story and you realise, if you're nine or ten, Christmas is so huge. Like, my son has woken up probably every day for the last two weeks thinking it's Christmas Day, and it is. we are recording this on December the 19th. And he was told there was the school Christmas fair was a couple of weeks ago. And his childminder told him that the school Christmas fair was the next day.

And he took that to mean it was Christmas. Obviously he's up at about five thinking he's going to get to wrap presents. And I'm like, no, actually, no, it's just there's a mulled wine section for the parents and it's to raise money for extra curricular stuff. And there will be no, what's the time? 5.40, okay, please go back to bed. Now, if there's one thing almost everyone knows

about Oliver Cromwell, aside from him asking to be painted warts and all, it's that he canceled Christmas. In fact, the cancellation of Christmas symbolises Puritanism. I would say it symbolises Puritanism alongside those little funny sort of buckled shoes. And the lack of fun that was apparently really central to that sort of brand of very God-fearing Protestantism. It's a tough sell that, isn't it? Oh my God. I mean, doing the research for this, for my section, you say tough sell. That's what I kept thinking.

I kept thinking, if I was like a political communicator, if I was, I don't know, I asked the Campbell or Dominic Cummings or something, you're constantly thinking about the optics. Yes. The optics are really bad with Canceling Christmas. So few people are up for it. Even Scrooge in A Christmas Carol comes round. By the end of the book, even Scrooge, that guy, is like, all right, fine, let's buy the crotchets

and turkey, I get it. So this is what really happened. Why did Cromwell target Christmas in the first place? Well, the truth is, he didn't. The ban was imposed by Parliament by an ordinance introduced in 1644 for the better observance of the feasts of the nativities. The idea was instead of gluttony and over-consumption of booze, which is a true Christian nation, should observe Christ's birthday with a fast. Now, I'm Dominic Cummings, I'm Alistair Campbell. I'm thinking to myself, okay, intermittent fasting is big,

if you read the broadsheets, let's make it an intermittent fasting Christmas. Now, Scotland had already introduced a similar ban, banning in vertis commas, I should say, in 1640. So in 1644, England and Wales joined in, at least in theory. In practice, the ordinance was issued only on December the 19th, so there was little time for most of the country to respond. So if anything, the effects of the Civil War contributed more to the muted atmosphere of 1644

than any edict from Parliament. So three years later in 1647, the ban was made formal with fines payable by anyone breaking the rules. So instead of Christmas, there would be a secular day off instead and Christmas would be a normal working day. What? And surprise, surprise, made people unhappy. In my bit of research we'll get to, the French Revolution, it's such a... What's the opposite of an easy win? Because this just, having it like giving people no Christmas.

I just don't understand what they think is gonna happen. Give people the break. So are you saying, El, that as it was now decided to be a day of work, a normal day, if you were seen to be celebrating it, you would get fined? Is that the level they got? Wow. We'd be podcasting.

We would be making a Christmas Christmas day or what time special. So in Canterbury, the townspeople rioted and demanded the day off and the right to decorate the town with Holly. I like Holly. Probably wouldn't riot over it. To make their point, the rioters played a particularly fierce game of football and spectators pelted the city alderman and church ministers with mud. It was similar confrontations in London and in Norwich.

So soon a new song circulated, satirising the Christmas ban, and pointing out that this was the world turned upside down. So these are the lyrics. Listen to me and you shall hear. News hath not been this thousand year. Since Herod's season and many more, you've never heard the like before. Holy days are despised, new fashions are devised, old Christmas is kicked out of town, yet let's be content and the times lament you see the world turned upside down." I actually don't mind that. That is actually quite good. Is that Paul McCartney? There's the thing about… Obviously Christmas is important now. Life's stressful. It's

a time to share time with your family, etc., etc. 1644. Life's pretty bleak, isn't it, I imagine. There aren't many moments of joy and excess and fun, I imagine. It's just a lot of sort of cold, hard shit. So I'm thinking this must be very important then. Will Barron Do you know what though? It would have been a pre-commercialisation Christmas. It would have been entirely religious. Will Barron Yes. But there still would have been feasting. For the people who could afford it.

Or at least a sharing of food with people and that sort of thing. That would have still been part of it, wouldn't it? Yeah, it's strange, isn't it? Because now, oh my god, I cannot believe I'm saying this, but there's such emphasis on the gift-giving. I occasionally worry about what sort of message that it gives out. I can't believe I just said that because that's such an old person's thing to say. That's the kind of thing my mum used to say when I was a teenager and I'd be like, oh my god.

Oh, you were Tory now. Come on. That's quite a Tory thing to say. Just buy me a mega drive and be normal. But parliament persisted, right? So by 1649, the Civil War was over, Charles I was dead, the Puritans were in charge, which does not sound like a laugh. So it's time to make the old ordinances against Christmas more rigorous. So in 1652, laws were introduced which find anyone holding or attending Christmas church services and shops were ordered to be open. Which, I mean, must have been ch been shocking then. Talk to the people who work at my local budgins. They are open all year round.

They do not give a shit. It didn't really work. Old habits were to ingrain. And the further one traveled from cities or large towns, the weaker the imposition of the rules. So many observers noted that the Christmas ban was most effective in London, where soldiers were present to arrest any offending congregations.

So John Evelyn, the diarist, recorded in 1652, Christmas Day, no sermon anywhere, no church being permitted to be open, so observed it at home. So satirical stories were told at the time of Old Father Christmas having to travel all the way to Devon before he was welcomed in by strangers. Not today, thanks. Not today, thanks. Not today, thanks. Devon! Sorry mate, I've only got six kids. Not interested in Father Christmas. But if not going to church, it was easily accepted. The rules about opening shops and businesses on Christmas Day were more difficult to countenance, even in London.

So this was the most visible sign of disobedience. So with the shops shut and no-one going to church, Christmas Day settled down and became a family gathering. So houses were internally decorated with holly and ivy, a roast dinner was prepared. Actually quite similar to the modern approach. Have you noticed the mistletoe tradition really has died out, hasn't it, in a sort of me-too times up age? Not in my house. Have you still got it? Yeah. Do you? Yeah, boy. Over the doorway. Do you ever come round? For any visitor. Any Amazon driver that might be turning up to drop off your car. Anyone who wants to come round now, a little snog. You're more than welcome in Skull Towers. The Amazon driver, not only does he have to take a photo of the package being delivered,

he has to take a photo of the kiss. Every package, every time I open the front door, he's, oh, have you seen this? We simply have to snog. Oh, dear. Hucker up, simply have to snog. Oh dear. Hucker up, mate. That's incredible. I'm going to turn up at your door, love actually style with huge cards saying things like, to me, you are perfect. I'm going to lean in and recreate that scene.

I'm going to turn up, dressing gown. I open the dressing gown. I am staffers. I look up at the mistletoe expectantly, Chris. What will be will be. Yeah. So it's like, who is it? I'm like, carol singers. That's amazing they do that. One unexpected outcome of Parliament's attacks on Christmas was the transposition

of the idea from Britain to the American colonies, which I find incredible. Notably, Massachusetts and its principal town, Boston, when in 1659, just as the Christmas ban was waning in Britain, the colony's general court introduced its own prohibition. Whoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor,

feasting, or any other way, declared the new ruling, they would be subject to a fine of five shillings. This law was kept in place until 1681. Finally abandoned when a new governor was installed, an Englishman called Edmund Andros, who was not a Puritan, and a laugh, and therefore had little time for the hard line approach taken by these Puritans in New England.

And this proved very contentious. So when Andros celebrated Christmas in Boston in 1686, he went to church flanked by a retinue of soldiers to prevent any trouble. Now again, if you want to go to church, that's fine. I'm not sure I'd ever want to go to church enough to bring my own sort of military security detail of soldiers. But Puritan attitudes, this is amazing. I did know this actually,

remained in New England for a long time. So William Bradford, who served as governor of the Plymouth colony, once got so irate with people who he found celebrating Christmas by playing games and drinking, that he confronted them and told them to go home and get off the streets. And there was a similar vision

of this sort of bar-Hamburg attitude. And that came from Samuel Sewell, who was most famous for his involvement in the Salem witch trials. And he boasted in his diary of traveling around on Christmas Day and getting people to stop celebrating and asking them to get back to work. Wow! Sort of Mr. Burns style. So his favorite sight was seeing the shops open and

firewood coming into the town. The Puritans, this is incredible right, was successful enough in New England that Christmas did not become a public holiday in Massachusetts until 1856. Will Barron Wow! Alistair Almost 200 years after observance had first been outlawed, with schools and businesses across the state remaining open over Christmas until that time. Children still went to school on Christmas Day in the States until 1870 when Christmas became a national holiday in the USA. Isn't that remarkable? Oh my goodness me. But that's remarkable though, Al. It's a delight in this guy going around and

enjoying destroying people. I'm imagining people midway through a game of charades and him bursting in and having the whole thing collapsing. They're trying to do pigeon. Yeah. And you're going, police academy, trying to guess what he's... Yeah, yeah. Trying to do the word for Puritan in charades.

People are guessing. It's just a great example of wanting to say to someone, me, what the fuck is your problem? Yeah, absolutely. On a similar note of kind of like bar humbug, my Christmas party when I was at school, specifically kind of around year eight, you know, at that time you're beginning to get interested in girls, girls are getting interested in boys, and there would be occasional snogging at my Christmas party at high school. And our deputy headmaster would go around with a whistle and a torch, like blowing the

whistle and shining the torch in your face if you started kissing on the dance floor. Telling you to put your mistletoe away. Which you brought with you every year. Now I think about it, was he wearing Puritan buckle shoes? That is mad. Yeah.

That is mad. That's very 1950s. It is, isn't it? That's hard to believe that, yeah, that happened in my school. Very Oliver Cromwell. No one would, when I was a teenager, have to blow a whistle at me in time we'd stop kissing. It really wasn't an issue.

No, a blowing whistle is telling you to start kissing. Yeah. Exactly. They blow the whistle and say, are you even aware of kissing? Yeah. Do you know the concept of kissing? Do you want to read about kissing? Yeah.

I bought you this book. Happy Christmas. of Anti-Christmas. If you want both parts right now, you can become an O What A Time full-timer. You get bonus episodes, you get episodes early, you get ad-free listening for all the benefits. And to sign up, you can go to owhatatime.com and you can sign up via Wondery Plus or another slice. Chris, would you say that's the perfect Christmas gift for someone to buy themselves? Yeah, treat yourself. Treat yourself, exactly.

Christmas is about giving. See you in part 2. the Follow Oh What A Time on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. And before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.