Oh What A Time... - #90 Spycatcher: The Candid Autobiography of a Senior Intelligence Officer (1987) by Peter Wright (BONUS EPISODE)

Episode Date: December 30, 2025

Yes we're still off on our Christmas/New Year holidays but never fear! We have ANOTHER bonus subscriber episode for you to enjoy.BUT CRUCIALLY, DON'T FORGET! The comedy history podcast that has spent as much time talking about the invention of custard as it has the industrial revolution is here with its first ever live show! Thursday 15th January at the Underbelly Boulevard in London’s Soho. 🎟 Tickets are on sale now: https://underbellyboulevard.com/tickets/oh-what-a-time/And in huge news, Oh What A Time is now on Patreon! From content you’ve never heard before to the incredible Oh What A Time chat group, there’s so much more OWAT to be enjoyed!On our Patreon you’ll now find:•The full archive of bonus episodes•Brand new bonus episodes each month•OWAT subscriber group chats•Loads of extra perks for supporters of the show•PLUS ad-free episodes earlier than everyone elseJoin us at 👉 patreon.com/ohwhatatimeAnd as a special thank you for joining, use the code CUSTARD for 25% off your first month.--So.. Onto this episode:Put on your warmest coat, because one of this month’s subscriber specials is a trip back to the Cold War through the memoir of Mi5’s former Assistant Director, Peter Wright.There is excitement. There is intrigue. There is burglary all over London. And there is an incredible conspiracy theory that the former head of Mi5 may have been a Soviet spy!Chris’ book review this month is the book Thatcher tried to ban given its incredible revelations about the life of a spy! Enjoy.And thank you so much for being a Full Timer, we couldn’t make the show without you.You can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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For all your options, you can go to patreon.com forward slash O-Watertime. Hello and welcome to Oh What a Time. We are on our holidays right now. It's that Christmas New Year period where podcasting just stops. But don't worry because we've got some very old archive subscriber episodes for you to enjoy until we come back in the new year. But if you have someone in your life that you love and you want to get them a gift, then what about the gift of comedy history? Because on the 15th of January 2026, Oh What a Time are doing our first ever live show at the Underbelly Boulevard in Soho. Tickets start from just 25 pounds and you could be there to get your tickets right now for the 15th of Jan. Just go to ohwatertime.com and if you enjoy this

episode remember there are lots of bonus episodes to be enjoyed over on the oh water time full-timer package to sign up to our patron to get two bonus episodes every month plus early release episodes add free listing and all that good stuff you can head to oh watertime.com com. Anyway, this is a fantastic subscriber episode from many moons ago. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to Oh, What a Time and welcome to this month's bonus episode. It is an episode I'm very excited about. On these bonus episodes, we've been reviewing historical books, historical themes. We've been taking it in turns to do one each per month. This month I've selected a book that Ellis told me about that I'd never heard on. It's called Spycatcher, the candid autobiography of a senior intelligence officer, the murky world of conspiracy, of spies. It is by Peter Wright, not the darts player, no, a spy from the

50s, 60s, 40s. Yeah, former assistant director of MI5. It is gripping. It is incredible. I've read it. I can't wait to share with you, what I think. And I actually wonder whether we do this as a different kind of episode. I will tell you the story. I basically started reading this thinking this is an interesting book about what it would be like to be an MI5 in the 40s and 50s. But then, of course, the book is called Spycatcher. And it's a theory that the head of MI5 during the kind of 50s and 60s, but a very senior figure before that, Sir Roger Hollis was in fact a Soviet spy, hence the title Spy Catcher.

Ah. Well, there was the, was it Phil Burgess and McLean? Burgess, the Cambridge Five. Yes, they pop up a lot. Cambridge Five, yeah. And of course, on the face of it, me knowing absolutely nothing about this subject, I was like, the head of MI5 is a Soviet spy. What nonsense? I've read this book, and subsequently, I was so amazed by what I was reading that I've gone deep. And there's actually a lot more information that has come out in the years since this book was published in, I think, 1981, which I'm interested to share with you

and maybe we could do this as a kind of mock trial of Sir Roger Hollis Can we get? Love it. Is that all right? He's long dead. He's been dead for half a century so I'm hoping that he's not going to come after us although he may have been a Soviet spy so who knows.

It was a huge scandal of Cambridge Five and it really terrified the British establishment So they were, there was a ring of spies who were passing information to the Soviet Union during World War II in the Cold War. So from what I remember, Donald McLean, Guy Burgess and Kim Filby, they were the sort of three most well-known ones, I think. Yes. One of them was, one of the five was Sir Anthony Blunt, who was something like the Queen. He was in the Queen's household.

I can't remember his exact title. But there's been revelations coming out even. recently, which is that MI5 knew he was a spy, but let him go back to his job and didn't acknowledge him as a Soviet spy because they didn't want. Bloody hell. Yeah, and he was working with the Queen and the Queen emerged a new story yesterday, I think it was, that the Queen wasn't informed that he'd been outed as a spy until much later. But why did they let him go back to the job?

Because they didn't want the controversy and notoriety of another big. big spy being found within their ranks. They didn't want it getting out. Well, did they say to him just to let you know, we do know, can he just stop spying now? Yeah, he confessed. Oh, he did. They offered him immunity, and he confessed. You know, I've read biographies and autobiographies of just general British politicians

in the 70s and 80s even, and they're still talking about it. Because Philby died in sort of 1988. Even today, I saw a tweet, a random tweet popped up saying the damage Kim Filby did to the British espionage prestige is still felt even today. Well, I know nothing about any of this. This is all completely new to me. So I'm very excited. So you are literally telling a man who knows Diddley Squat. And I don't use that phrase lightly. Well, before I kick us off with spy catcher, Elle, perhaps we should start with a little bit of correspondence. It's a bit of a palate cleanser. Yes, absolutely.

Before we get into spying and espionage, etc. This is from Carwin Jones. Hello, oh, what a time bandit's idea for a listener name. I'm just multitasking. I send this email as I tuck into a bowl of custard, always served cold. What? Few, absolutely horrendous ideas

for that custard-swilling fat cat Tom, Steve Cren. Can I just check that's fat cat? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Unbelievably aggressive email. Custard Minute. Quick custard on the go. So what is that?

So this is a potential idea for vending machines in train stations, etc. Right. It's quick custard. It's custard on the go. Custard Minute. Mouth to Teat. No idea why. Just thinking of the marketing campaign of Crane suckling a custard cow.

Ambrosia of the Gods. We need to get Ambrosia on board. Again, marketing of Crane dressed as the Roman as a Roman going mouth to teat on a custard goat. Yep. It's an image that's going to stick with you. How do you know it's a custard goat? I suppose because the liquid that's coming out of the teeth is yellow.

That's why. And also, it's, you have the name of the thing. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, got it. I cannot stress how much I'm relying on this marketing campaign and Crane's willingness to go lips to teat. Oh, yes, the slogan. Use your cranium consume custard.

In terms of willingness, it's going to be very financially based. It's money is going to talk in this situation, I think, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. I love the power of the milk episode. It was an absolute riot. Keep up the fantastic work. Much love Cadwin, Reese Jones.

Now, that is a Welsh name, Alice. So, yeah, he's just coming up with marketing ideas for your custard empire. The one that I like most is busted on the go. I think there is genuinely something in that. The idea of a train platform, I'm imagining it's like a vending machine with possibly different strengths, different flavors of custard. Yeah. The idea just comes from here is a custard minute. Custod minute. Custard minute. Quick custard on the go.

It is an easy meal. Look how popular Hewle is. That's a liquid lunch, isn't it? Well, it'd be like, it's quite a Brexit-y version of Hewell, isn't it? Custard. You know, you get those memes on social media, like, I grew up in the 50s when milk came from a bottle and children played outside and the only takeaways were fish and chips and people drank tea and they were happy. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, Hewle's great. If you're modern

and if you like all the bad things that go with modernity, let's get back to basics with custard. A Custod Minute. Quick Custod on the go. Let me set the scene, Ellis, okay? It's a really cold mid-December morning. You're off

to record one of your 52 podcasts. And it's frosty. It's frosty, exactly. On the train platform is a piping hot vending machine. You can touch the side and the metal is hot. And it's got my face sucking on a custard goat. Okay, are you getting a lovely cup of custard to take on your journey? I think you know the answer.

So I'm thinking to myself, well, coffee would wake me up. Yeah. But a quick custard would warm me up. Yeah. I know, I'll get the caffeine option. Caffeine. A tiny shot, a very strong espresso custard. Yeah, yeah.

Espresso custard. What about you, Chris? Chilly morning. You're on the way to West Ham against Derby in the championship next season. And it's a lovely bit of business there, L. And it's cold. There's one of these piping hot vending machines outside the London Stadium. Are you going in with a cup of custard?

Well, I'll tell you what, I thought you over the weekend, Crane, because I did have apple pie and custard on Sunday. And the kids didn't want that much custard So I had a lot of custard The heartburn The heartburn really It brought into sharp focus The fact that it's very rich

Very rich It's a stag do for people Who have got Dental Problems Curried custard So they do want to do too much chewing It's curried custard Late night custard

But it's flavoured bites So you can have corma custard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It's flavoured by the different things. So it's fine. You can have, you know, a fowl custard, if you're feeling particularly brave, really hot custard in both ways. Yeah, madras custard. A madrusted.

I don't think, as a substance, it's ripe for building a whole franchise around. I felt the same about hummus brothers. It's like beans brothers. It just doesn't make sense. Remember hummus brothers? It was like a whole franchise, a whole shop built around hummus. You're like, it's not enough. And I feel that way about custard.

Whenever I eat hummus And no, whenever I'm buying it I'm in the supermarket And I see all the different variants And I just want the original and best It's like baked beans Yes I love big beans

But I've never bought the baked beans With sausages in I've never bought You know Sort of spicy baked beans I just want baked beans To be baked beans Okay

Right, are you ready for spy catcher I'm so excited about this Big time Because I've read this book But not for about At least 25 years So I've got very few men reason of it. Interestingly, this feels like

an old story. Spy catcher which details the story of Peter Wright who worked for MI5 between 1954 and 1975 and as the title informs you he's trying to catch a spy. I'll get to that but first

do you want my interesting things about life as an MI5 spy in the 50s 60s and 70s? Definitely. First observation that I make and this seems to be a common theme throughout the book is that MI5, MI6, the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, they all hate each other. All these different spy agencies think the other one is incompetent.

They don't trust the other one. There's a lot. There's so much bitching in it throughout this and total distrust of these other spies and sometimes they're stepping on each other's shoes and all these different spying missions. I just thought it's so interesting, isn't it? That I would have assumed that these spy networks is a lot of collaboration. But I would say the whole relationship between these different spy agencies is one of mistrust. That's fascinating.

And it's interesting. It comes up again and again. And that is important. And I will explain why a bit later on. But that kind of shocked me. I made mine trained to be a police officer. And they were doing a training exercise in, I don't know, in midwales somewhere. I said, do you have a good time?

You went, yeah, it was brilliant. So all these sort of trainee coppers, you went, we just ended up scrapping with a load of prison office. They were prison officers on a training thing in the same town. And they all ended up having a big scrap on the Saturday night because they were pissed. It's funny how you expect these institutions and bodies to get off and they have strange institutional rivalries. I think that's the case in a lot of lines of work, though, to be honest. I think there's different sections of the same businesses will feel that other areas

are incompetent. It's essentially sort of like, essentially the sort of like in-grimbing. group attitude, a sort of hardwired human behaviour of feeling the idea of the other, them and us. It's just like, it's literally how we're made, isn't it? So it's a bit depressing, really. Interesting. So Spycatcher, when it was published, I think it was published in, what was it, 1980,

the first published in 1987, but it was wrapped up in a court case. Margaret Thatcher, the Conservative government at the time, tried to stop its publication because there were secrets in it. And one of the first secrets that really struck me is he talks about being onboarded into MI5. And one of the things that happens quite early on is that as part of that onboarding, you have initial training. Some of that training involved being taught how to pick locks. Obviously, this is the 50s we've got bear in mind. So he meets like a master locksmith who teaches them the basics of how you pick locks. And this is something that's very important

for an MI5 agent because continually throughout the book, he is burglling houses. Like, it's a big part of the job to illegally break into places. Yeah. And he's told you can expect no protection from the police. You can't get caught. They're operating in this gray area of illegality, effectively. So he's taught how to break into places and break into homes. Another astonishing thing about this lock picking.

So he's taught this lock picking. There's a great scene later on in the book where he's meeting someone who works, I think, for the CIA for lunch. And they accidentally lock their keys in the car. But he always keeps his lock picking safe. with him and he goes don't worry watch this and then the guy's like wow he just picks the lock on his car yes so it's like part spying

part being in cubs it's a bit of that so he's taught how to lock pick but the other astonishing thing is when he's being taught this lock picking down in the basement of MI5 they have got rows and rows cupboard after cupboard

of keys they've copied for important buildings throughout London so that lock pick Lock-picking isn't even that important because all the big buildings they've taken copies of keys and down in the basement of MI5 in the 50s you could go, I need to break into that building

there's the key, I'm just going to go off and walk in. How astonishing is that? That blew my mind. I'm imagining like massive one for St. Paul's as well as stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tudor one, yeah.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, completely. Windsor Castle's like the four-foot-long key. Yeah. That's so crazy. It's crazy. There's another bit in the book where they're watching as someone they suspect to be a Russian spy, and they're intersecting his communications. And he basically lets it be known to his girlfriend or whoever,

that he's nipping out for the weekend, but he's left the key under the mat. And they're like, result, we were going to break into his house. We'll just nick that key, go get a copy, put it back under the mat again. Wow. It kind of warmed my heart a little bit, this old world of the 50s and 60s, you know, just grab a key, break into a place and to go off into the nights. I could say, as someone who lost, uh, is. about two years ago, we lost our final house key.

So we had to pay to have new locks because the keys have been lost out about, which costs like 500 quid or 600 quid or something like that. It would be quite useful in a situation just to ring AMI 5 on the off chance and they've got a set a key through your house. You would be a disastrous, MIFO. Can you imagine that? The guy running the lock picking department.

Can I just check? This is going to cost me 500 quid. on the off chance, have you, can you get me in? Oh, that's great. So you're saying the Soviet spy used to live in my house 30 years ago, and you've still got a key, that's fantastic. Ideal, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. The next thing that really struck me was,

so they're spying at various points. This is obviously the height of the Cold War. So they're spying on the Russian embassy. And one of the things they've done is they've got a house, like the MI5 owner house opposite the Russian embassy. and in order to sneak listening equipment and things into this house and this flat, that MI5 had built secret tunnels under London to get things in and out of this house

without the Russians detecting what they were doing. And there's another thing that reminded me, this is not in the book, but it's something I had read, that in the 80s, under Thatcher, there was one year where there was an extraordinary amount of spending of an infrastructure project, but there was no acknowledgement of what that spending was on,

And the rumour was always that there was these intricate tunnels built under London. I don't have you ever heard about that. Can you explain the five million on shovels that you suspect Margaret, despite not having a back garden? And this huge amount of dirt in Trafalgar Square. How did that get that? So it was opposite the Soviet embassy was in? Yeah. And they had a house to spy on them, but they had tunnels under this house so that they could go back and forward from wherever and drop things in and out and be undetected.

You would think that the Soviet embassy, they would know who's living opposite. It's like, who's living opposite is then? Oh, I think it's just four university mates in their 20s who are attempting, I think, and this is some of a house share, is it? Yeah, yeah. That does feel like a basic, doesn't it? Check on the people who can look directly across the street and in through the windows. Maybe check who they are.

Peter Wright's background is in kind of listening equipment. And one of the early things that he gets involved with is I think it was the US Embassy in Moscow. They were given a gift by an ambassador of a great seal. And then hidden within it, they realise his listening equipment. So I was absolutely imagining the animal there. Yeah, I know. It could balance a red ball in its nose.

It was a really great seal. I was going to say that's such an obvious thing, isn't it? Oh, here's a lovely, ornate, massive gift. Please hang it wherever you like. He's actually a Trojan seal. There was a... A Trojan seal. A British spy inside it.

It's called The Thing, and Peter Wright basically works out how it works. So his background is in listening, and this is at the height of the Cold War. And he basically develops some techniques that help tell MI5 where Russian agents are located in London. And he develops this system where it's quite complicated. honest, a lot of it goes over my head because it's very technical. But basically, he can create listening stations that figure out where Russian agents are sending messages back to Moscow and where they're receiving these messages. And via some of these techniques, he unearths a spiring.

And there's also a bit of help in, you know, it's not all him. There's also help from the CIA. They're tipping them off about the spirings in London. And basically, he discovers a spiring in London and they've got all the listening equipment. They arrest them. They know they're guilty, but they know the listing equipment is in the house. And eventually, after really vigorous searching, they find the listing equipment is hidden in bags all underneath the house, under the floorboards, like hidden safely within the house. It made me think, like, how many houses in the UK have Soviet-era listing equipment buried deep

underneath them or within them? This is one spiring that got unearthed. But where are the close shaves, you know, the ones who didn't get discovered. Also, Chris, now we've all got listing equipment in our houses. Yes. It's called a smartphone. And Alexa as well, if you want another one.

Yeah. Seems like the Soviets won, actually, or did they? I don't know what that means. Yeah. So... That was, Alice, that was actually very thought-provoking. Who really did make me... Can I just compliment you?

It's really reflected on things. I shock you. You just made me think. Are we really safe? So the thrust of the book, the thing that is astounding is the, I would say, the central allegation, which is that the head of MI5,

during the, he was in the service, 1938, he was the head of MI5 between 1956 and 1965. Sir Roger Hollis was a Soviet spy. Wow. Now, it's just even, Even to this day, this is still controversial, even to this day, freedom of information requests. I think it's 30 years, don't know?

They hold information for 30 years, then it has to be. Well, it can vary, can it? There's 30 years and 50 years and all sorts. But, yeah, 30 years is very common. Now, the first clue that there's something fishy going on with all this is that even now you can't get freedom of information requests about this book, about some of the allegations, about some of the accusations. They're still redacted beyond the 30-year limit. So that is the first... Because he's been dead since 1973.

1973. And he died at age 67. And this is not mentioned anywhere, but he does seem to die at a convenient moment for the allegations. Because... Oh, here we go, Chris. I'm just asking questions. Please welcome.

My next guest is Matthew Letitia. He's here to talk through... It's just... I just thought that's interesting. There's a lot of... room is beginning to build up. So basically, between in the years that Sir Roger Hollis is head of MI5, Peter Wright is working on various operations against the Soviets,

and almost every single one of them goes wrong. They have found out often immediately. There's stories about bugging Russian embassy by drilling through a hole in the wall, and miraculously, the next week, the Russians move their agents around, so no one is in this room and they begin covering up listening devices. There's a big, famously, they do manage to crack one spiring

in that example I just told you, but there's evidence that the Soviets knew it were coming, that certain diplomats who were involved with the spireing had left like the day before MI5 were due to strike. There was lots and lots of credible evidence that MI5 operations were being sabotaged by a very well-placed by it. Some of this is contained in the book, a lot more information has come out afterwards.

And I've gone deep in this as to whether Roger Hollis was a spy or not. And it has emerged in the years since that there was a Russian spy in MI5. And that spy had the code name Ellie. This is an interesting fact that wasn't necessarily picked up at the time, was that you had two Soviet spy agencies. You had the KGB, which are very well known, but you also had the GRU. So two different spy agencies. And they didn't really know a lot of each other's work.

They were both operating separate spy rings. And in the years since, the KGB themselves have cleared Sir Roger Hollis and said he was not a KGB spy. And that is a lot of the defenders of Sir Roger Hollis leap on that and say, well, he was not a KGB spy. But as often pointed out, the GRU had their own spy ring. And it was to this spy ring that the agent with the code name Ellie was attached. Ah. Also, I'd say generally, how much can you trust the KGB if they say. I know it's not a functioning organisation anymore,

but I wouldn't necessarily take that as gospel, would you? I think, though, in a weird way, if you had someone as the head of MI5 as a KGB spy, you would want to announce that because of the prestige of it, maybe. Interesting. You'd want to say, yeah, he was one of ours, so fuck you. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? You'd think even at a time like this,

it would be in their interest, like the Russian interest to kind of unmask him. Now, I can't get into every single allegation. about Roger Hollis because there is a lot of admittedly circumstantial evidence that he was a spy. You've got all the operations going wrong. But there are books about this. Spycatcher is one, of course, but a famous investigative journalist called Chapman Pinscher produced the book called Too Secret Too Long. There's lots of books on the subject of whether Sir Roger Hollis was a spy.

Imagine the stress, if he was. Yeah. Yeah, at M.I.5, and you're spying for the Soviets. You wouldn't know where you're. you were. Like I find it, I find it hard enough sending an email and sort of, you know, as is he's talking to me. The idea of working for both sides, it'd be horrific. Here's one piece of evidence. There is a GRU agent by the name of Sonia, a lady living near Blenheim, and she is leaking to the Soviets information and secrets about the nuclear program. And those secrets are coming

from a guy called Klaus Fuchs. Now, Klaus Fuchs, he got... Sounds like an 80s porn star, isn't it? It does be. It's a bit on the nose, isn't it? Can we change it? No, on Klaus Fuchs, that's what it is. It's good for people to know what I do. It's good for the brand.

The dispensation for Klaus Fuchs to work on the nuclear program was given by Roger Hollis. Despite the fact that Roger Hollis knew he had a background and links to the Communist Party. Ah, okay. Another thing is that this sort of, this, Sonia, who's working in Blenheim, Roger Hollis is living around there. He's living near Oxford at the same time. And it's quite convenient that these leaks are coming out of Blenham

where Roger Hollis is living there and Sonia, around the corner, is leaking them back to the Russians. That's the first thing. But one thing that really stuck out to me was that in 1945, you start getting people defecting. Russians defecting to the British side or the West. And these defectors leak information about what is going on in Russia. And in 1945, a GRU cipher clerk in Ottawa called Igor Gosenko defacts to the West. And in doing so, he names numerous GRU spies in North America and Canada. And people say this marks the start of the Cold War because at that point, we were still allies with the Soviets. No one could really believe that the Soviets were running all these programs to infiltrate the West, effectively.

And this Igor Gazenko gives lots of names of people who do turn out to be spies. And interestingly, remember his GRU, he says, and there's something you've got to know about MI5, MI5 has a really senior mole within it for the GRU. I don't know the exact identity of this guy, but I can tell you that his code name is Ellie, right? So the Americans pass over this information to MI5. They say, look, we've got a guy over here saying there's a really,

there's a mole within MI5 and it turns out a lot of his information about some of the spies in America does stand up so we want you to go over here and check him out like go speak to him

go find out who this mole might be who do they pick to go fly over to North America and interview Gozenko Sir Roger Hollis right Roger Hollis goes over there right

how long Crane does he spend interviewing him how long do I think he's spent he's flown to Canada to speak to him yes well you'd like to imagine it's over a series of days and weeks, but I'm guessing it's not. I'm guessing it's quite short, is it? Ten minutes. He spends 10 minutes interviewing him. That's amazing. Ten minutes. And he dismisses him. Also, you know that the initial two or three has to be small talk, because that's how

conversation works. There's got to be a little bit of how I, I introduce myself. Hang in your coat. Exactly, there's a bit of that. Yeah. Tap in your pocket to make sure you've forgotten your wallet on the plane. The final minute is thanks, lovely to meet, a bit of shakes. You're a shake your hand, that sort of stuff. It leaves you only four minutes of Inquisition, basically. That's so funny.

Ten minutes. And the other thing he does is that it's reported that Gosenko says that he's very sheep, almost quite nervous. Right. And, like, kind of stands back from him. Gosenko postulates later on that he's nervous, because he thinks, oh my God, this Ghazenko's going to know who I am. Like, he doesn't want to be there, but very soon he realizes. But basically, Sir Roger Hollis says, no, it's not true.

Like, it's impossible that MI5 could have been penetrated by a mole. Ignore this guy. Wow. And what's interesting is, Kim Filby did something very similar. He was obviously an MI6, a double agent for the Soviets, and he did something very similar. When defectors defected and said there's a really highly placed mole with MI6, Kim Filby, like, did whatever he could to denigrate this person as a witness.

And then eventually, in some cases, he actually had the, he informed the Soviets and had that individual who was defecting murdered. So it's a very, it's a very strange episode. Another thing, I mentioned the spy Sonia, who's in, in Oxford, who's leaking information to the Soviets. Multiple times, Sir Roger Hollis personally intervenes to stop her getting investigated by the Americans. He says she has no He stops her getting quizzed

And the other interesting thing that he does It's he lies about the time in which he arrived in the UK They know there was a mole here in 1941 But he says she didn't arrive till 1942 Despite the fact that MI5 knew That this spy had arrived in 1941 The lady was co-named Sonia He lied about when she arrived

All right then I've got a question for you What's your problem with Roger Hart? was he Millwell fan what's the beef for the conspiracy did he persuade Harry Rednap would be good idea

to manage Tottenham what's happening here you're right Al there's something going on here yeah yeah yeah did he tell Palo de Canio to leave West up what is happening

what's your problem with Roger Hollis meet this is where I get my tinfo hat on because MI5 MI6 in the 50s and 60s they were so shamed by the Cambridge 5 and Peter Wright

says this in the book the embarrassment was off the charts for British security. Oh my God, it must have been awful. And also, the Americans didn't, they were reluctant to share information with the British because it's like you've been penetrated. You're fallible. There was such embarrassment at this that it is entirely possible that if it did emerge that the head of MI5 was a Soviet spy, that they would do everything they could to hide that fact.

Yes. And so Sir Roger Hollis, I actually read a report by the Institute of World Politics. They ran a report in 2015. And by now, I've just gone off the deep end on Sir Roger Hollis. I'm concerned this is, I've read Spycatcher, it's not enough. I need to know what's going on. You've rung his family. Tell him what you really think.

I've been watching YouTube videos with only maybe 100 or so views. I'm going that deep into the weeds at this point. There was a report by the, um, Institute of World Politics. And so they prepared this long report. And in it, they suggest that in 1965, Hollis is removed from MI5. And in this report they did, they did this in 2015. They say that in May 1965, the US prepared what was called the Grey Coin Report. And it singled Hollis out personally for scathing criticism of himself, but also how British intelligence was being run. And this was prepared for the US government. And basically, James Angleton, one of the

top spies in Washington says that MI5 have to remove Hollis. Hollis retires from MI5 in November 1965, and after he retires, the problems that MI5 had experienced with Soviet penetration goes away, right? Right. It's also terrible for the special relationship between Britain and America. But on a serious note, if they thought that the head of MI5 was a Soviet spy. So you were like, you were not going to share stuff with you, actually, lans. It's astonishing.

Yeah. After that point, MI5 were able to have spies, like KGB defectors and Russian defectors who defective the West but stay in place. Up until that point, any person who defected but tried to like stay on the inside of the KGB or the GRU and kind of be a double agent on behalf of the British, they would get found out and executed. But after Sir Roger Hollis leaves office, the MI5 were able to run. spies in situ.

It's so strange. But there's also, you've got a motive for MI5 to lie about this. This is the thing I keep coming back to. It's basically, it's in the British interest to deny that this happened. Yeah. What must his family think?

And I think this is part of it. One of the controversial things that happened in the years since is that there was an official biography, effectively, of MI5, like the true history of MI5. And there was, it's called the Defence

of the realm, the authorised history of MI5 by a Cambridge professor called Christopher Andrew. And Christopher Andrew basically exonerates Sir Roger Hollis and says, no, he couldn't have been a spy. And the Hollis family jump on this and say, brilliant stuff. But that other report I read to you from the Institute of, I think it was called World Politics, when they run their report in 2015, they say

that the official history of MI5 says that this spy that was Ellie that had infiltrated MI5 simply couldn't have been the person that the official history says it was like it's a glaring omission and it's again it just adds more weight to this idea that MI5 are trying to cover up they're trying to bury

any evidence that this guy Roger Hollis could have been a Russian spy even as recently as in the last 20 years and the fact that documents are still being redacted it's astonishing isn't it but it's a fascinating insight into that 50s and 60s and 70s world a pre-internet age

where it's very rudeness kind of telecommunications, radio waves, locks, no internet, you know, no ring cam, just sneaking around, walking across rooftops. It's a wonderful little look into that era. Absolutely. I think it's worth saying. You're not saying he was a spy, though, just for legal reasons. You're just resenting.

I mean, there's so much, there's so much. When you go down the rabbit hole, as I have with this, and there's still a long rabbit hole for me to walk. There is so much information out there about this, so many documents, so much evidence emerging. The Cold War is interesting as well because it employed so many people. Yeah. Yeah. My father was, his job was related to the Cold War in the 1980s. In what way? Because he was a quantities of faith for the MOD. Wow. So, you know, it was in some small way it was related to the Cold War. Yes. But also the world being divided in that way, In an odd way, you kind of know what's what, really.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know what M.I.5 are doing these days. I suppose it would be terrorism, I think, would be the top of the list, wouldn't it? And also, I suppose, Putin and China and all sorts of stuff. I reckon it's a very, very different brief now in life. Have you thought about dropping around and asking? You know where it is. It's just by the 10.

Well, I know where it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I cycle past it probably twice a week. Absolutely. Worth a knock? Yeah. Excuse me, lads. You don't mind.

couple of questions. No, I don't need specifics, but broadly speaking, what are you working on most? Oh, MI6 is the overseas one. Yeah, MI5 is the domestic one. And this is another thing that's interesting is like Kim Philby, the idea of Sir Roger Hollis being an MI5 spy despite being, sorry, being a Soviet spy, despite being the head of MI5, is not so outlandish because it was entirely possible that Kim Philby, a known Soviet spy, he nearly got to the top of MI6.

He was very, very senior. And he nearly got to the top of that organisation. So it's not unbelievable that that could have happened. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know what, it's almost, I don't want to use the word romantic, but this, the Cold War espionage vibe that I got reading this, of listening to radios through the night.

And there's lots of scenes of Peter Wright, sat around tables, like listening to listening devices, drinking whiskey. something appealing about it Ellis we talked about a specific scene in this book that you remembered which is that I think there's a bugging of I can't remember if it's a Russian embassy or a place, it's definitely a place of interest

Peter Wright bugs it but in order to complete the bug they basically need to drill outside this building in full view of the building owners so what they do is they do they get a Friday night all the guys who work at MI5 bring all their wives down

and they basically pose as a bunch of of couples that have had a drunken night out, they hang around outside the building where one of them drops down and begins to drill into the floor outside this building to insert the listening device while they stood on the street. Wow. Seemingly drunk. I really remember that bit. And they're all wearing ball gowns and they're just, yeah. And what I remember by that was having to include your partner. Do you mind? It's a work thing on Friday night. Yeah. Like I tell Lizzie, I'm recording podcasts, but she doesn't know an enormous amount about what I've prepared for.

Like, she doesn't know we're doing Spy Catcher today. Yeah. So what do you, you know, if it's, for instance, if for argument's sake, if you're asking your wife to wear a ball gun and pretend to my piss on the Russian embassy, how much does she know? Yeah, it's quite early on in the book.

I had quite, um, that had quite an impact on me that part. I think the phrase outside the Russian embassy would worry. me as well from someone who has nothing to do with that career-wise. But I'm a teacher. I'm not going to get in trouble. It doesn't feel ideal. I think I might reread Spike Archer. I found my copy yesterday.

Oh really? It's a great book. So yeah, I think I might reread it because it's been a long term since I read it. Also, one of the other facets to it is that it's so tantalizing, knowing that you're reading something that almost banned, that they tried to ban. Yes. Interesting, yeah. Tony Ben reading.

excerpts out at Speaker's Corner and things that's why I remember about it and yeah I mean it was banned at one point wasn't it yeah it was banned in the UK until I think so it was published in 85 but it was banned in the UK until I think it was published in 87 actually

yeah oh 87 but it was excessive you could buy it all around the world wasn't it Australia first and then America you could buy it in the UK how does it make you feel you'd have fared Chris reading it does it make you feel that you'd have had it you'd have given it good shot, or do you think you'd have been completely ill-suited to it?

I think in the 50s and 60s, I would have been totally oblivious to the world of spying. Right. Maybe when James Bond turns up, I might have become aware of it. But having learnt about it, you know, if I had my time again in the 50s, if I was 18 in 1950, I would be going all out for a career in MI5, because it sounds so fun. Well, they'd spot you at Oxbridge, wouldn't they? So Oxford and Cambridge Dons would let MI5 and MI6 know that they were suitable country. It's studying.

Oh, really? And then they would get tapped up. Yeah. That's really interesting. I would be so shit as a spy. Yeah. It's just terrible. Losing interest in the mission halfway through.

How fuck was that today? What are the things they're looking for that would suggest that you're going to be the student? It's going to be a good spy. You know what the homework is before it's set? What is it? What's happening? Initiative diligence. Yeah.

Ability to blend in, decent at podcasting, regional, effortless banter. Access to a long Mac and dark sunglasses. Yeah. All the key ones. Yeah, I'd have been terrible. It's Tompkins here, Cambridge University. Ah, do you have one for us? Yes, not met him yet, but the Mac is spot on.

It's hard guy. Ellis, to be fair, L, very briefly, you can do voices, you can be different people, you can do that. So you do have that. They tend to be British accents in the main. Okay. So I could maybe do the domestic set for MI5. I reckon, you know, when they were very active doing the troubles, I could have blended it in Belfast.

Or at the Hasseander in Manchester. Yeah, yeah. So what's this all about then? Anyone got any secrets for me? It's pretty good. Yeah. I just realised there was a Welsh James Bond, Timothy Dalton. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

License to Kish. What a moment for Welsh espionage. Well, there you go. That was spy catcher. I hope you enjoyed that. I definitely love reading it. I would recommend if you want to learn about spying in the 50s, 60s 70s, it's definitely for you. And if you've got any thoughts on Peter Wright, if you're looking to defend Roger Hollis, maybe you want to cast him asunder, provide more evidence.

You can do so anonymously, and here's how. All right, you horrible luck. here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh what a time.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh What a Time Pod. Now clear off. I can't believe we're now casting us. as an anti-Hollis podcast.

Hollis out? John Hollis. Not John Hollins. You've got to choose a side of me. If you're into history podcasting, are you pro or anti-Hollies? Yeah. And I can't believe we've come on the Hollis out side of things. Yeah, I'm Hollis out.

He needed to go out. He needs out. Let's rebuild the club. A continuity director of him, my father. Thank you for listening. We'll have another bonus for you next month. I believe as Ellis's turn to pick a book. Yeah.

That'd be exciting. So do join us then. Thank you for listening. And we'll see again very soon. Bye. See you guys. Goodbye. Oh, What a Time is now on Patreon.

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