Oh What A Time... - #91 Ghost Stories (Part 2)

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week we’re looking at horror throughout literature. Come with us as we meet the undead of Ancient Greece, Werewolves and the absolutely terrifying Wendigo.And are we in the golden age of the peeler? Would stone-age man have struggled to peel all the potatoes and carrots for Christmas dinner using flint? I mean, who knows. But if you’ve got anything to add on this or anything else, hit us up on: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is part two of Horror In Literature. Let's get on with the show. I'm going to be talking to you too about werewolves. Now you believe in go sell because of a podcast that you listen to. Where do you stand on werewolves? I believe in all. I'm like a conspiracy theorist. You dip your toe in one and then you're like, actually, oh my god.

You can't pick and choose. You have to be in for it all or not at all. There is a grand plan. They are trying to rob us of our freedoms. And then you're like, yes, absolutely. So yeah, werewolves bring it on. Absolutely big time. What about you Skull? Skeptical of werewolves and ghosts. But I will say this, if I'm in a cold and dark hotel or something that I'm unfamiliar with, I will fully believe in ghosts in that moment. And equally I imagine if I was in the Middle Ages walking through a forest and I heard a strange noise, I'd be like, that's a werewolf. Clearly.

Yes. He's coming to eat me. Well, what if you were walking through a forest now and it was a full moon and you're on your own, would part of you be thinking, they could be out there? Would you allow that to creep into your mind? That would creep into my mind. Also, this would creep in. What am I doing in this forest in a full moon alone at night? In 1166 in Carmarthen, my hometown, 22 people were attacked by a rabid wolf, many of whom

died later. Okay. Now, this is quite a famous story. If you read in history books or articles in historical magazines about it, it's always they were attacked by a rabid wolf. They were actually attacked by a werewolf. Okay. And I'm the only person brave enough to say it. Did you know this about walls? They used to be all over the Scottish Highlands. That you skip walls everywhere. And there's been talk, I've read this article not so long ago, they were talking about reintroducing them. Yes. I think they've begun. Yeah, yeah.

I think they have. Have they? Yeah, they have. Yeah. I think so. I don't know where I stand on that. You don't want to be going on a lovely little walk with your North Face jacket and then come face to face with a wolf. They put them in muzzles and mittens. I'm back in again. Well people have been talking about werewolves for a long time. Ellis, you were saying 1146,

is that right? 1166 in Carmarthen. There you are, when people were definitely attacked by werewolf in Carmar time. Ellis, you were saying 1146, is that right? 1166 in Carmarthen. There you are, when people were definitely attacked by a werewolf in Carmarthen. Well, back in the 12th century, people were writing about it too. The anonymous French poet Marie de France, which was just a pen name, wrote down a story that she claimed she heard performed in Brittany, apparently in Breton, in the language of Breton. A story which is now known by the title she gave to it, which was Bisclavret, which was the middle Breton word for werewolf. So in the 12th century, they're writing about this. Now the story, which is one of several originating in Brittany in

different languages, but with similar themes, I'll tell you about this story that was written, tells of a lord called Biscllavret, who is a werewolf and is condemned to live in wolf form for three days every week. Like a time shift! That's so funny. It's a funny thing to watch. Oh my god. It is inconvenient, but you take it. Yes. It's less than half the week.

Yeah. At least, yeah. Which three days are you choosing it? I, what do you, I'll probably Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday when the kids are at school. Yeah, I was going to say, get out of the way. Yeah, yeah. Enjoy the rest of your week. That's what I think.

Can't be the weekend. It can't be the weekend. No, no. You can't be getting out of parenting again because you've got to be aware. I can't be near the kids. I will eat them. Imagine that Sunday night fear of like, oh God, I'm about midnight, I'm bloody werewolf for three days. Your hands start to get a bit hairy around 11.55pm. Oh no. Should we watch a Michael J Fox movie? I'd rather not. I actually found Teen Wolf offensive.

You're out for a drink with friends on Sunday night. You can't stay till the end, you have to, you know. Too much of a risk to stay till last orders, in case you kill everyone in the bar. Oh God. Yeah, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, get out the way. Thursday, Friday, do the school run. Saturday morning, take them swimming. Sunday just feel really, really stressed because you're about to turn back into a werewolf again. Yeah, absolutely. So to ensure that this character,

Bisclavret, can return to human form after these three days are done, after Wednesday night comes, to make sure he becomes a human again. In this story, he hides his clothes in a safe place. Every week he comes back to his clothes, he puts them on and then he becomes a man again. In this story, he hides his clothes in a safe place every week, he comes back to his clothes, he puts them on and then he becomes a man again. However, his wife is having an affair with another knight and she sends her lover to follow Bisclavet to his hiding place and to steal his clothes so that he's trapped permanently as a werewolf and she's rid of him. Which feels a bit, isn't it just easy to end things Like just to take... have a frank conversation that you don't feel for him anymore, you fall in love with another night. Do you really have to condemn him to a life as a werewolf?

If... do you know what? It feels like a cruel twist. But she's, you know, she was expecting big things in that relationship. She's got every right to be upset, but it does feel like a bit of a kick in the teeth, doesn't it? I mean, if you're going to spurn someone, don't turn them into a werewolf, because I would be worried about that. You know, they've got a grudge to bear, and they're a werewolf. That's a very good point. Yeah. A year goes by and Bisclavette, he's trapped as a werewolf, his clothes are stolen, he

encounters a king who's out hunting, the bear really get on, and the werewolf goes to live in the royal castle. And then one day, the knight, who is the adulterous knight who is seeing his wife, visits the castle. And when bisclavet, the werewolf, sees him, he attacks. And having been such a placid dog, this confuses the court, especially the king. And they think there must be a reason for this. This really calm wolf has suddenly gone crazy when this guy has entered the castle. The matter is investigated, the theft of the clothes is unveiled and they eventually are returned to Bisclavet, who at last changes back to his human form. And finally, the king exiles the knight and Bisclavet's former wife. Now, that is the story that was told. It's quite a sort of soft sweet tale, I suppose, in a way.

There's no like, it's not too bloodthirsty. And werewolf tales, just like these, were so popular, with sort of slightly benign werewolves, that they traveled widely around many of Europe, and they were adapted into different forms of literature at this time, including the Icelandic sagas, Norwegian Stranglikar, which is kind of a bit like the sagas. And this interest in werewolves reflected, and I think this is quite interesting, the genuine fear people had at the time of being turned into a werewolf by witches and witchcraft. This was like a fear that people genuinely held in quite a widespread way. Do you think about the things that we're worried about now, like losing your iPhone, internet fraud, stuff like that. Imagine living in a time where you are genuinely concerned

you could be turned into a werewolf, having that sort of anxiety hanging over you. Also, you know you turn back into a human having been a werewolf. I think it must be very, very difficult when you've been a werewolf, even if you are in human form, to regain people's trust. I'm not going to hang out with him actually, because I remember what he was like yesterday when he was a werewolf. And you killed all my chickens. Yeah, I just think as well, because I don't think there's very much you can do about

it, the old werewolf anxiety, is there? How is that informing your day-to-day life if you feel there is a genuine chance you've been turned into a werewolf? Are you going out at night? Or are you just, what are you doing? But it depends. The thing I'm thinking about is the incredible Hulk. When he turns into Hulk, eventually he's able to gain some control over what he's like when he's Hulk, right? Is that what it's like when you're a werewolf? Or you're just a completely different personality? Because if you could control it and you had all the power of a werewolf, but you could be a good guy, like the man in that

story, that is quite appealing, isn't it? Like Teen Wolf, brilliant at basketball. Imagine it over Power League when you're a werewolf. Like doing step-overs, scoring goals, incredible endurance. What a midfield engine. Realistically, who's going to challenge a werewolf. Like doing stepovers, scoring goals, incredible endurance. What a midfield engine. Realistically, who's going to challenge a werewolf? I mean, if a werewolf's got the ball, I am not tackling that werewolf. I'm not sure the back leg of a wolf is built for a stepover. Doesn't it sort of bend backwards? I'm trying to think of it on its two hind legs, whether it's going to move in that way. You could be scoring from goal kicks. The muscles there.

So what is kind of fascinating about this is that this anxiety, it was so widespread, so felt in a genuine sense that it gave rise in the 16th century to something which is absolutely bonkers. Would you care to guess what came about as a result of this fear? Will people accused of being werewolves? Yes. The werewolf trials. Oh my goody ant. Which is not when you're in a YTS contract. Work experience.

Exactly, yeah. See if you actually get to become a full-time werewolf. In what is now Western Switzerland, the French speaking cantons of Vallee and Vaud and the neighbouring French department of Jura, lycanthropes, or lycanthropes, which is people who can allegedly turn themselves into wolves, were widely accused of all sorts of horrific crimes, including serial murder and cannibalism. So this is widespread accusations of people being werewolves. A noted case in the Juran town of Dol in 1574 led to the execution of the werewolf of Dol, a man called Giles Garnier, after he was tried for the murder of at least four children and ultimately convicted of being a werewolf.

He was burned at the stake for lycanthropy, which I might be pronouncing wrong, and witchcraft. So burned at the stake after being accused of being a werewolf. Garnier's case served to popularise the idea of the criminal werewolf and soon werewolf trials spread throughout the continent. Examples arose in the Netherlands, Germany, and as far north as what is now Latvia, Lithuania and the Baltic Sea. So, these trials, although not as popular as witch trials, they were happening across Europe and beyond. If you were accused of being a werewolf, what's your defence? What are you going with? Will you want to see? Are you all fucking mad?

I wouldn't get aggressive. Yeah, like that's what a werewolf would do. to say, are you all fucking mad? I wouldn't get aggressive. Yeah, like that's what a werewolf would do. The hallmark of a werewolf. This is one of the, again, the fears I had as a kid reading about witch trials and being accused of something that is impossible and having to defend yourself against it. That is a great fear of mine as a kid. Do you remember when they... I think this is right, in witch trials, one of the things they would do to see if you were a witch is they'd dunk you and if you floated, you were

a witch. Did anyone not float? Also, how are they checking for werewolves? It's just nonsense, isn't it? These feudal morons. Well, lots of people obviously drowned because they tried to stay unknown. Yeah, it's just horrific. Absolutely horrific. Yeah, yeah. The legal system, the legal system in the Middle Ages needs some work. I don't think it was ten jurors who were carefully selected for, you know, so there wasn't bias. These are wildly unfair trials.

And these trials, what's interesting in terms of literature, which obviously is what we're talking about today, had a huge impact on the subject. With real-world werewolf trials going on, the old medieval romances, like the one I talked you through earlier, featuring werewolves and kings and all this sort of stuff, began to morph into the scarier horror literature that we now associate with the character. This all came about because of these trials and because of his fear. So the werewolf previously was something akin to like almost the beast in Beauty of the Beast. It became a bloodthirsty wild thing of later fiction during this period, especially during

the werewolf trials. And here's an amazing fact, no lesson. King James VI of Scotland, who was King James I of England, got in on the act writing a book all about demonology in 1597, in which he wrote about werewolves. In seeking for an explanation for melancholy, he says, werewolves, this is the quote, to tell you simply my opinion is this. Any such thing has been, I take it to have proceeded, but of a natural super abundance of melancholy, which as we read has made some think themselves pictures, some of horses, and some one kind of beast or another." So basically in James I's mind, the werewolf was mad, bad and dangerous to know, most likely suffering from a form of schizophrenia, some kind of a mental imbalance is what he felt. Imagine if King Charles now wrote a book about werewolves. Would you buy it?

To write a book about werewolves, if you're the king, you're going to have big things to yourself, you must have more important stuff to do. Surely you're shaking hands with other world leaders and, you know, sort of heads of state as opposed to wasting your time writing a book about werewolf. The other thing, with being accused of being a werewolf, what's the evidence? Yes. Hairy face. Hairy hands. It feels quite easily provable as well. We'll hold this trial under a full moon. That feels like the answer, doesn't it? Just wait till then and we'll find out if you're a werewolf.

Oh yeah, good point. You would have got promoted from village iddy if you'd have come up with that. So there you go. So basically, the current trend in literature of the werewolf as this bloodthirsty thing was not something that was there from the beginning. To begin with, it was sort of quite sweet tales of love and loss and all this sort of stuff. It was only through the fear that came about via the werewolf trials and the panic that people had that

they might become one, that this sort of bloodthirsty modern version appeared. It's amazing really. It is scary though. Yeah, absolutely. But I was thinking, you've got, was it American werewolf in London? Is that the horror film about werewolf? But most werewolf content, Teen Wolf. That's it. To be fair, that's the only one I can think of. But it feels like werewolves are portrayed more good than bad. Yes, but in literature, in books, I think generally they are scary, bloodthirsty things. Shall we quickly chuck a few things into the mix before we end this bit about signs that someone might be a werewolf? I think maybe if someone cocks their leg

when they piss, it might be one, do you think? Having an Android phone. Okay, I'm going to tell you now about a mythical terrifying creature from folklore called the Wendigo. Have you heard of the Wendigo? No, never. In 1910, the English writer Algonon Blackwood, that name's died out, isn't it? Algonon. Yeah. I don't think I've ever met an Algonon. No, neither have I.

It's a shame. There's bound to be an Algonon at Eton or Harrow, isn't there? There must be. If you are on know an Algonon, hello at owhatatime.com. Absolutely. I reckon when they're reading the register Eaton or Harrow Ellis and they say Algonon, about eight kids put their hands up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can guarantee to you there will be no Garrys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 1910, the English writer Algernon Blackwood released a blood-curdling short story collection featuring some tales that were enough for his friends as well as his detractors to call

him weird. Now also, the other thing about Algernon was that he was a member of a London-based establishment devoted to all things supernatural called the Ghost Club. Oh, that sounds fun. I love that. What year is that? 1910. I'd love to be in the Ghost Club. That sounds great. Private Members Club as well.

A private members club? Yeah. Wow. It's just got, it's a very basic name, isn't it? It's very thoughtful too, those names go. It's a bit kind of eight years old with your mates after school. Yeah, I quite like the Ron Seal aspect of it, just is what it is. I like that. You think that it would be called, I don't know, the league and guild of honorees supernatural

discussion or something as opposed to ghost club. Pad it out, Algonon. Make it sound exciting. Ghost club, yeah. He wrote a story that he had picked up during a visit to Canada. He explained this in his memoir, Episodes Before 30, that he had written this story that was derived from Algonquin folklore

and was present all across North America. Now, in 1910, around then... Very briefly, Chris. This is interesting, isn't it? There's a real theme of writers then, writing stories that already exist. Yeah, it's plagiarism. Call it what it is. It's like 90% of the stories are stories that have been heard somewhere else and they've just written them. Yeah. They have basically been tuned over thousands of years and you turn up and commit 90% of the stories are stories that have been heard somewhere else and they've just written them. They have basically been tuned over thousands of years and you turn up and commit them to

parchment and take all the credit. Newspapers in Britain around 1910 were a flush with repeats of the folkloric story a few years before telling readers from Belfast to Cardiff that some Native Americans hold that when a person dies in delirium, a spirit, a wendigo, escapes from the body to the woods and frightens away the game and a famine ensues. So do you want to know what a wendigo is? Yes. As I mentioned there, it's a creature from folklore from the Algonquin speaking indigenous

peoples of North America. It is often depicted as a malevolent supernatural entity with ties to greed, hunger and cannibalism. Tell me what you think of this physical appearance. A wendigo is typically described as a gaunt, emaciated figure with a appearance resembling a skeletal decaying humanoid or some sort of animal-human hybrid. We've remarked in the past that you've got a gorilla's bottom, Ellis. I once chatted up a girl when I was about 16 and we'd been talking for about half an hour and I thought it was going quite well. I think I might have told you this already. And I said, so do you fancy taking this to the next level?

And she said, no, because you're gaunt. And I'm thinking, okay. Shit. And you said, wait a few years when the Libertines are big and you'll realise that's actually... Yeah, yeah. It's going to come into fashion in about six years time. Oh, you'd be like, where was that gaunt boy? Gaunt. The wendigo has glowing eyes, sharp teeth, elongated limbs. Some legends describe it as towering over humans. And it's meant, the wendigo is meant to represent a kind of insatiable greed and hunger, often

linked to human acts of selfishness or cannibalism. In some traditions, a wendigo is created when a person resorts to cannibalism, even in extreme conditions such as famine. So if you're caught out in North America, in those forests, I don't know if you've seen the Revenant, but maybe you don't have any food, you resort to, you stumble upon a corpse, you eat it, you will create a Wendigo who will howl off into the forest. I'm beginning to feel a bit scared actually. This Wendigo doesn't have very many saving grace characteristics. No. Doesn't have the charm of a werewolf. No one's making teen Wendigo.

No. However, I like the storytelling trope of the idea of it appearing from someone who dies in a fever. I quite like that. It's quite exciting. This Wendigo with the cannibalism, does the Wendigo come from the person who's being eaten or the person with the appetite? I don't know actually.

It's a good question. It's a good question. It's a story from Folklore. Yeah, it emerges. I don't know whether it's out of any of those individuals or just, I don't know, someone from the ether. It is quite, yeah, it generally is quite creepy. It's a bit unsettling, isn't it? What do you think of this storytelling trope? So, when deegos are said to have themselves

an insatiable appetite for human flesh, however, the more they eat, the more their hunger grows. Yeah, this is unsettling this one. I'm like that with custard. If I have one taste. It cannot be satiated by custard lust. Lustered as I call it. When degos are often associated with cold, winter, isolation, and this reflects their origins in Northern climates.

You can see why, if you put yourselves in the shoes of those Algonquin speaking indigenous tribes of North America, you can really imagine the scene in which a Wendigo is emerging and at night under a full moon. Terrifying. In some indigenous traditions and psychological context, wendigo psychosis is a condition where an individual becomes obsessed with consuming human flesh, even when other food is available. And wendigos are also believed to possess supernatural speed, strength and endurance endurance making them especially dangerous predators

but especially good players over Power League. Yeah, so Algonon, Blackwood's 1910 novella The Wendigo is a classic tale of supernatural horror that explores themes of isolation, fear and the unknown. It takes place in the remote wilderness of Canada. The story uses the legend of the Wendigo to evoke terror in both the character and the readers. I'll give you a little overview of the plot. We've got four men on a hunting expedition in the remote Canadian wilderness.

We've got Dr Cathcart, a skeptic, a rational thinker. Simpson, his young and inexperienced nephew. Hank Davis, a burly practical guide. And Joseph DeFargo, another guide of indigenous descent, familiar with the local legends and the environment. There's the four characters, Tom. Who's going to die? Hank, I think he's done. Yeah, the practical one. Oh, I was just listening to the names. I didn't quite take in the description. Give me them

one more time. I'll give you the correct answer this time. Dr. Cath. No, he's fine. Skeptical rational thinkers. Simpson. Young, inexperienced nephew. Yes, I'm worried about Simpson. Yeah, I'm worried about him. Hank Davis, the burly practical guide. Oh no, he's fine. He's fine. And Joseph Defargo, who's another guide of indigenous descent.

I'm going to go Simpson first and then maybe the... Okay. Yeah, Simpson first, possibly the doctor second. So Defargo, the story begins, he shares the local folklore about the Wendigo, this terrifying spirit of the wilderness that has insatiable hunger and madness. And the Wendigo is said to possess individuals, forcing them to run at impossible speeds and consume human flesh. Now, Defargo and Simpson separate from the others to hunt moose deeper in the forest. One night, Simpson wakes to find Defargo acting strangely, muttering about the

burning feet and the smell of the wendigo. A mysterious pungent odour and strange howling noises fill the air. Defargo becomes increasingly disturbed and eventually flees into the forest, claiming the Wendigo is after him. No, big mistake. When you think a Wendigo's after you, you never flee into the forest. You flee onto open ground, like a train station. You flee to your closest tube line. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you ask a police, then you tell a policeman, you find someone in high vis. You get home, you get in bed, you pull the quilt over your head.

No, just go to a big news agent. Big Tesco. Go to a big Tesco. Just go to a big Tesco, go to Tesco Extra. You don't flee into the forest, you maniac. So he's run into the forest. He's run into the forest. Now we've got Simpson. He is alone, terrified he can hear Defargo's cries. What does Simpson do? Runs after him. He runs after him. Of course he does, Tom. That's why you're Britain's finest writer.

Come on, Simpson. Of course he does, Tom, that's why you're Britain's finest writer. Come on, Simpson. Simpson. He begins following Defargo's tracks, which appear unnaturally long and spaced apart, as if Defargo had been running at supernatural speed. Simpson eventually returns to the main camp to recount the strange events, but his story is met with scepticism by Dr Cathcart. Several days later, Defargo reappears.

He is unrecognisable, emaciated, delirious, seemingly possessed. His body shows signs of extreme exposure and he speaks of being taken by the Wendigo. Defargo's condition worsens rapidly and he dies under mysterious and gruesome circumstances, leaving the men shaken and horrified. And the story ends quite ambiguously. The group retreat from the forest while Dr. Cathcart tries to rationalise the events. The lingering sense of dread suggests that the Wendigo's presence is both real and unavoidable. Ooh. Wow. That's very good. Like that. Yeah. Fan of that? Big fan.

The scariest one so far. Yeah. So it's a demon of both literature and folklore. And as we touched on there, the Wendigo closely associated with hunger, the onset of fear during the long, dark cold of the Northern Winter, and a warning to readers not to try to outrun starvation by turning to cannibalism. To what I find creepy by that one, any supernatural beast or creature chuck the word insatiable into the mix. It never ends well, does it? It's never an insatiable thirst for like, tidying. Friendship. Or emptying the dishwasher.

Yeah. I've got an insatiable hunger to put clothes away. Insatiable urge to piss off. The word insatiable hunger to put clothes away. Mason Sondland Insatiable urge to pair socks. Mason Vandiver The word insatiable really does worry me in this context. Mason Sondland I could see a world where the idea of the Wendigo diet, people trying to push that as a really sort of... Mason Vandiver Yeah, and you pair it with an exercise plan

which involves running into the forest. At supernatural speed. Yeah, the great thing about the Wendigo diet, you can eat all the human flesh you want. Yeah. Like a really horrible Atkins. I'm not saying that there haven't been, I just haven't seen any filmic depictions of the Wendigo. Will Barron Well, I'll stop you there, Earl. Because

someone who famously wrote about the Wendigo character is a master of the genre. A little fella called Stephen King. He used the Wendigo as the principal antagonist of his novel, Pet Sematary, published in 1983, which was then adapted for film in 1989. Have you seen it, Tom? I have not, but I'm aware of it. I've heard of it. Have you watched it now? I haven't seen Pet Sematary either, no. I always did a Wendigo and Pet Sematary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The New York Times, when it was reviewing the film adaption, said that it left shivering terror on those that had seen the film. Good grief.

I would have assumed Pet Sematary was like a Pixar movie about ghosts of pets having a really fun time together. Yeah, like cats coming back to life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, take your kids to the cinema. And pair up with ghost owners. I'd take them to see Pet Sematary. There we go. Next half term. Brilliant. There you go. So that's the Wendigo, the fearsome creature from Angonquin folklore. Yeah. Terrifying. I think before we wrap up the show, I think it's only right that we decide which is the scariest,

which would you least like to encounter? Is it Ellis's Ghosts, as discussed in part one? From Ancient Greece. Is it my werewolf, my latter day werewolf, not the early one. The early one's just a hairy guy, isn't it? Is it the latter ones, more bloodthirsty, or is it the Wendigo? I think there's a clear winner, isn't there? Wendigo? It's the Wendigo. Yeah, absolutely the Wendigo. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's weirdly the big strides and the long feet that freak me out.

Yeah, yeah. That's It's weirdly the big strides and the long feet that freak me out. Yeah, yeah. It's that aspect I find scariest. Being caught up no matter how quickly you can run. And an insatiable desire for flesh is bad, isn't it? Yeah, it's bad news. It doesn't sound great. Do you think the long footprint is the footprint of a bare foot or like a stretched shoe? Like a clown shoe?

Because it was originally a human. Yeah exactly, is it like a... Like Ronald McDonald's shoes? Stretched Converse All-Star or like a other five-tone? When you asked that I've just googled, imaged it, and it seems to be more sort of clown shoe than bare. Really? Okay maybe not so scary then.

Oh I don't know. I mean being chased by a very quick clown with an insatiable thirst of flesh through a forest. Yeah, you're right. Not for me, not for me. If you've got any more episode ideas, I know we've discussed trees in this episode, but anything else, maybe, do you know what, even if you've got trees you want to suggest for the trees episode,

do get in touch with the show. You can email hello at owatertime.com. Good thing we recorded this in the morning actually, because I wouldn't be able to sleep if this wasn't even recorded. I've got all day now to think about other things. You've got to scrap your lunchtime nap though. Yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna read about something like tennis. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha sending those in as well. Thank you for supporting the show. Another way you can support the show, if you don't already, is to subscribe. Become an oh what a time full timer. It makes a huge difference to us and the show makes it possible for us to do more and more basically. It'll give you first dibs on live tickets. It means you get both parts of an episode at exactly the same time and also, crucially, it gives you access to our huge back catalogue of

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