Oh What A Time... - #94 Canals (Part 1)

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Finally, AN EPISODE ON ARTIFICIAL WATERWAYS. Come with us as we dig our way through the jungle to form the Panama Canal, we traipse back to Glastonbury to check out their canal, and we’re off to ancient China to take a look at the world’s oldest canal.And this week we hear all about Alex Brooker’s hot tub boat tour of New York. Plus, more on Donald Trump once doing the Rumbelows League Cup draw. And Margaret Thatcher’s failed stand-up career. So once again, if you’ve got anything to add to the conversation, do drop us an electronic mail: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to episodes of Oh What A Time early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, a history podcast that tries to decide Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, a history podcast that tries to decide whether life was better before you'd get Instagram suggestions for weekend entertainment like this. Now I'm gonna read you out something that I received from my Instagram yesterday and it blew my mind. It might say more about me than it does modern life. Maybe it's fine, maybe it's normal. This is one of the hit things to do in America at the moment, okay? Yeah. It is in Volante Beach

Resort in Texas, okay? This is one of the big popular things that people are doing every summer and they're selling tickets for the next summer. They show Jaws on a huge cinema screen and you are out in the ocean in a tire, an inflatable tire, with your legs dangling in the water at night time. So at night, instead of a cinema court screen, a thousand people are out in the ocean, you're floating with your feet in the pitch black sea beneath you, and you're watching Jaws on a big screen. Now, is it better that we live in an age where that's the sort of entertainment that's available to us? Or is that, as it is to my mind, insane and you couldn't pay me enough money to do that?

That is insane. Do you know why I wouldn't like it? Because I can't think of very many things I find more irritating than being splashed. It's why I hate taking the kids from me because they splash me. And every time I get splashed, especially if it's by someone else's kid, I'm like, oh fuck off. Are you trying to keep it merry, but really wanting to punch a child? He was splashing to the cinema experience. Like other people eat dinner is bad enough. On a similar mad note, I was in New York before Christmas and while I was out there, Alex Brooker of Last Lake fame, who we all know, was out there as well. We met up and I said, what's on your itinerary? And later that day, bear in mind, it was freezing. It was like minus five.

Bear in mind, it was freezing, it was like minus five. He did a hot tub boat tour of New York in December. Yes. I've seen the photos. I thought I was like, you are joking. Going past the Statue of Liberty is the image I've seen. Him bare chested in front of the Statue of Liberty. And his wife was just like, what have I married? Well, Chris, let's complete the whole story. That isn't the only thing he did that day.

He also did the Home Alone 2 tour in New York, including a piece of pizza and a large limo and going to the different destinations from Home Alone 2. Well, he bought the Home Alone 2 tour of New York from the plaza where you got a room with like infinite ice cream, a guy comes up and says you're the ice cream and then basically a limo ride with a pizza in the limo. But what he figured out on the day, he was explaining to me, was that basically yeah, you've got a limo for two hours, but it's just like being in a two hour taxi. Stuck in traffic.

Stuck in traffic for two hours, I just could walk around. I'm pretty sure it ended with him getting the limo driver just to drop them off. And he just let them out in New York. Donald Trump's in Home Alone 2, isn't he? He is, yeah. As a brief cameo. The rumour I heard, because I went to the Plaza Hotel just to check it out, I didn't get the full Home Alone 2 experience.

But I was googling the Plaza and when they shot Home Alone 2 to the Plaza Hotel just to check it out. I didn't get the full Home Alone 2 experience, but I was Googling the Plaza. And when they shot Home Alone 2 in the Plaza, it was part owned by Donald Trump, who said they could shoot in the hotel for free if he were allowed to be in the film. Hence the cameo. He's part owner of the White House as well. And he only lets them use it for governmental reasons

on the proviso that he gets to keep coming back as president. Will Barron So that's why he's in Home Alone 2. What was the proviso that got him to read out the Rumbelow's Cup quarterfinal draw in St. and Grievesie, which is one of my favourite videos on YouTube of all time. Toby O'Neill Well you know he got out a washing machine rent free for 10 years. Will Barron If you haven't seen it, the League Cup was sponsored Well you know he got a washing machine rent free for 10 years. If you haven't seen it, the League Cup was sponsored by Rumbelos at the time. What is now the Carabao Cup? What is Rumbelos? Rumbelos was a high street sort of TV store.

White goods. Like Tandy or Dixons or Curries. And you could do things like rent your telly. You could basically rent items or lease them as opposed to like paying. Yeah. Okay. So my grandmother used to rent her telly for instance. Yes.

And you could do that from your local Rumbelos. And they used to sponsor the League Cup. And St and Grievesie, which was like a precursor to Soccer AM, I assume, was like a light-hearted Saturday lunchtime look ahead to that afternoon's football. Right. Presented by two ex-footballers, Jimmy Greaves and Ian St John, who'd played with some distinction in the 1960s. They went over and Donald Trump does the draw for the quarterfinals. He's like, oh, okay, Little Age United versus Aston Villa. And obviously he hasn't heard of any of the teams. He doesn't

know the significance of any of the games. I think one of the ones he pulls out is a derby, I can't remember who it is, you know, it was Arsenal versus Tottenham or whatever. Yes, yes. And Jimmy Greaves goes, oh! Yeah, yeah, Jimmy goes, oh! And then when he pulls out the Aston Villa one, Jimmy Greaves makes a joke about Doug Ellis, the slightly eccentric then owner of Aston Villa. Trump just smiles as if he's got any idea who Doug Ellis is. He laughs so long. Even though, yeah, clearly you could have no idea. I think I know the joke.

Jimmy Greaves is in the boardroom of Trump Tower and Jimmy Greaves says, I haven't seen a boardroom this luxurious since I last saw Doug Ellis. And Trump laughs. Oh yeah. And he laughs so long. So whatever you think of Trump, we may not politically align with him, but he's a polite laugher. You'd want him in the front row of your comedy group, wouldn't you Al?

Oh no, no. I... Maybe not now. Might be distracting. I cannot... Well, it would be distracting. You'd have to, you'd have to. You'd have to reference it, wouldn't you?

Yeah, yeah. Would you assume it wasn't... Assume it's just someone who looks like Donald Trump and riff around that? Would you assume it's Donald Trump? Oh, I'd assume it was a lookalike. And I'd say, you know, if I have a bad gig, you're going to pardon me. All of that kind of stuff. And then you go, no, I'm Donald Trump. And I'd be like, oh, fucking no. And then I didn't know what I would say. I'm out of ideas.

Hello, Elon, you'd say. Did you move along the row? Mr Bezos. There's Mark Zuckerberg. Okay. Hello. What is this night out? What's happening? Can we have the house lights up?

Am I not paying corporate rates? Yeah, absolutely. House lights up. Jeff Bezos, they're all there. This is a pay what you want new material gig above a pub in Garden Garden. What are you doing here? Do you know the Washington Correspondents' Dinner? It's the thing in, I think that's the correct phrasing, but it's a dinner in the States

where every year the president basically turns up and does some stand up. You must have seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barack Obama did the mic drop, didn't he? But Trump, I've never seen Trump do it. Couple of points on that. A, they will have writers. It's not that Obama has written 12 minutes of...

Who was it who tried to write jokes for Thatcher and she just could not compute humour? I'm trying to think which joke writer it was. So they'd write the line for her and she'd be like, yeah, but why is that funny? But it just is. Honestly. And like, her intonation would be all wrong because she just didn't understand what the punchline was. Are you telling me 12 minutes of Thatcher getting the intonation and rhythm wrong of every line isn't going to be the funniest thing you've ever seen? If you were the writer, you'd want to die at the end of it. I mean, if it had happened

in 1984, it would now be the best YouTube video on the internet. If I was able to do a better Margaret Thatcher impression, she would talk a little bit like that. Yeah, that's good enough. So you'd be like, what do you call a magic dog? A labraca dabrador? That's right. The intonation will always be a question mark at the end because she wouldn't quite be sure. What did the shark say when he ate the crown fish? This tastes a little funny. I actually think that's the way to do it, isn't it? What do you call a pony with a cough, a little horse? I don't know, Margaret. I'm not sure.

There was the off the cuff joke that Reagan made when he was making a radio address. Have you heard about this? No. And he doesn't think he's, he's not being broadcast live, but it was recorded and it was leaked where he's on mic. It's like doing the sound check or something. And he says, we begin bombing the Soviet Union in five minutes. Oh yes, yes I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's started pretending to do a countdown. This is the height of the Cold War.

No! And does it go out? And it's on mic. It was leaked. It is out. You can listen to it online. Wow. Blimey. I was absolutely stunned when I was told about that for the first time. Do you know the weird thing about Trump is he's worse at autocue. That's actually the weakest part of his oratory is saying what has been written down. And the best bit, the thing he's best at, better than anyone else in politics, is all the ad stuff. Like I don't think there's ever been

a better ad libber. Like Sean Lock. Very right wing Sean Lock. He'd be a great compare. Yeah, exactly. I reckon he'd overrun if he was comparing at your local comedy club. You're just in the wings thinking to yourself, I've got a bloody gig in Balmain in 40 minutes, you'd better get on with it. And he's just riffing. Right. Today should be a really fun episode. What are we talking about this week, boys? What's the subject?

Canals. And actually, I thought given this episode, there'd be a lot of pre-chat about canals, getting on canal boats, et cetera. I know for a fact, Tom, that you've been on a canal boat. I have been on a canal boat, yes. I went for a friend's birthday, our mutual friend Michael. He had a birthday, I went on that, yes. Have you been on a canal boat?

Yeah, and I did the thing where you go down the canal and you wave at other canal boat sailors. You have to wave, you have to wave at anyone on a boat, that's the rules, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you, Al? I have had a pint in a pub that was by a lock, and I waved at canal boat passengers.

You've never been on one? I don't have an enormous amount of canal experience. Josh Widdicombe used to go on canal boating holidays when he was a little kid. He did. And I had quite a lot of material about canal boating. And obviously, because space is a premium, like the kettle would also be the ironing board kind of thing.

Like lots of... I remember Josh had some very funny material about that. But no, I wouldn't say I'm a canal expert. I've been to Venice and it pissed down and I'd quite a shit time. I didn't enjoy Venice at all. I found it too busy, too smelly and I've constantly felt we were being ripped off at every corner. But I can see why people like it, but it wasn't for me.

That's why I can't taste it. Yes. I didn't really ingratiate myself with the locals because I kept walking around saying there are more canals in Birmingham. That's right. In Birmingham. Suck on that. I actually love a canal, as we will cover later

in the show, and there's a reason for that. But today's show is all about the history canals. I think it's going to be a really interesting episode. I'm going to be talking about the history of basically the first canals dug in Britain, why they were dug, and what happened from there basically. It's really interesting. What are you guys talking about later? I bet my canal's older than your canal. I'm going back past the Ming dynasty in China to talk about very ancient BC canals. It will be earlier then, yes. OK. And I'm talking about an absolute cracker of a canal – the Panama Canal.

Oh nice! The big one. I'm also, fun fact, a big fan of the Manchester Ship Canal. Oh! Oh nice, the big one. I'm also, fun fact, a big fan of the Manchester Ship Canal. Oh, there you go. Because it created, I mean, this is in our notes as written by the wonderful historian, Dr. Darrell Leeworthy. This is my own knowledge, so if I get this wrong, feel free to send an email to hello at owadatime.com, the corrections corner, owadashame.

But that's basically the genesis, the Manchester Ship Canal, I think, of the Liverpool-Manchester rivalry. And it's not just a sporting thing. It's because the people of Manchester, or business owners in Manchester, were well pissed off at having to pay taxes and tariffs to put things through the dock in Liverpool,

through the port of Liverpool. So they just decided to build a canal that went from the Irish Sea straight through to Manchester. Oh, interesting. Because obviously Liverpool is a seaside town and Manchester isn't. Yeah. So they just decided to bypass Liverpool. That's so interesting. So it was a ship canal as a way of reducing like carriage charges and so they didn't have to pay

tariffs and dock and town dues and stuff in Liverpool. And obviously that then adversely affected the Liverpool economy. So the early sort of football chance about that, do you think, the Liverpool Man United right, were they very canal based? It's amazing how that stuff sticks around, isn't it? I just love civic disputes. I just think it's brilliant. Shall we read a little bit of our email correspondence? Hello! Before we get into the subject of canals. I think we should be a really fun episode. This isn't a long one but I really like this email. This is from Andy. Andy has emailed with the heading New Year's 1788-1789. Gents, I hope you're all well.

I'm very much enjoying O'Watter time so far. Thank you so much, Andy, for listening. On the topic of New Year's of the past, which is something we talked about recently, your chat about 1023 wasn't great, but 1024 is my year, which is the thing we talked about the idea of it, where the people had that sort of New Year's resolutions back then, made me think of a page from a Bible from the 1700s which my brother bought in Hay or Why. It contains a handwritten poem from New Year's in 1788 into 1789. How cool is this? Not what you'd call comedy gold, but hopefully of interest photo attached.

But this is amazing. I'll read this out. This is a poem that someone has written on New Year's Eve in 1788 ahead of the new year and is then tucked away in their Bible and has been found in Hey and Why by a listener's brother. How cool is that? So it seems to read, 1788 is forever past, 1789 will fly away as fast, but whether life uncertain will shud through this short space or whether death shall come between and end my mortal race, or whether sickness, pain or health the approaching scene may be, or whether poverty or wealth is quite unknown to me. One thing I know, what precious hour my wayward passions haste while I yet feel my vital power.

To dust and darkness haste, earth rapid rolls as season's over to meet final fire, rich grace will be with glory crowned when sin and world expire. What awful thoughts, how sublime. Most useful lesson this, oh well, let thou improve in time." So the idea basically being whatever happens in this coming year, may I improve, may I learn something new, whatever happens, may this new year be better for me. So even in 1788, there you are, people are writing poems, they are hoping for a better year,

in much the way that people do now. I thought that was just really lovely, that this thing has been tucked away in a book and found in Hay and Wye by a listener's brother. That's 200th almost 40 years ago. Yeah. I think people will be listening to this podcast in 240 years. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Find an mp3 of it, tapped inside a book.

The money still ticking in to our great great great great grandchildren. Now a barely discernible about 30 pence a week, but still it's a reminder that we were here. We once trod here. It'll be millions. They'll be the kings and queens of Mars. And people will say, oh my god, I mean, you own this planet. How did that happen then? All this familial wealth. Oh well, my great-great-great-great-grandfather was very, very funny. And he was really into history and so were his two mates. And as a consequence, I am an utter lifter finger for 240 years. Interesting to know which one he thinks is really really funny there Chris and which

is the two mates. Let's prod into that. Oh we're all funny. They're all funny. You're going to sound a little bit to me. We are all funny and our great grandchildren will all benefit when they're the kings and queens of Mars. Two and a half centuries time. grandchildren will all benefit when they're the kings and queens of Mars. And they'll say, were you related to the Welsh one? And they say no, and that's good, because

he turned out to be quite problematic, didn't he? Yes, he did. Did he read about that? Yeah. It was stuff with guinea pigs, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. It was guinea pigs. No. Elephant nude. Never do anything of the sort. I really loved that email. I thought that was a really lovely email. Yeah, lovely. Generally an amazing thing. Andy has sent a picture of it. There it is. Oh wow, it's actually, oh it's written in pen in the Bible. How cool is that? I will send it across to you. We'll put it on our Instagram. I would like to know what his, is it his brother? It is his brother, yes. How much his brother paid for the Bible? Because if I was trying to buy an

old Bible, but there was a poem in there from 1788, that would drastically increase the price for me. I think that's fantastic. Do you want to hear a mad thing that happened to me once? I, this is 15 years ago, got quite into Peter Ustinov. Right. An anecdotalist. And I was in a charity, because he's got an interest about it,

wasn't his dad a spy or he was a spy? There's some interesting thing. And I was in a charity shop and they had his autobiography in this charity shop. And I was like, oh great, it was like £1.50. I bought it. When I got it home and opened it up, I opened it up and it was signed by Peter Ustinov and he'd written in it, to Chris, Peter Ustinov. That's amazing. It was signed to Chris. What the chance is that? That is

so mad. How mad is that? That is genuinely incredible. Any coincidences like that of history, please do email them in. Hello at owhatime.com. In fact, Chris, there are many ways to get in contact, aren't there? Yes. Check this out. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at oh what a time dot com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at oh what a time pod. Now clear off. Okay let's move on to actual history. As I say, later in the show, I'm going to be talking about the first canals in Britain.

What are you guys talking about? Very old canals in ancient China. I'm going to get cracking in Panama. Now, it's the big one, isn't it? When it comes to artificial waterways, nothing really evokes the human imagination like the Panama Canal. I would say it's that and the Suez Canal are the big two. Mad canals. So it links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Okay, so it's got a big old job. It's funny the contrast between that and a British canal, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It links two small towns in the West Midlands.

Exactly, yeah. There's very few little parochial pubs on the Panama Canal. And not a lot of waving. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I don't think you really wave in the Panama Canal. It's too big, isn't it? The size of those boats, by the way, incidentally, are unbelievable. The ones that, the goods ships that go down the Panama Canal can barely comprehend the size of those vessels.

Well, this is the thing, because obviously it provides a solution to that problem. How else do you travel between those two enormous bodies of water, the Atlantic Oceans? Alternative routes either float with danger, or they were very expensive or you know as demand multiplies that adds to the complexity of transporting stuff via these alternative routes. So they thought well you either go around or above or below, let's just go through. So the canal runs for 82 kilometres, 51 miles through the narrowest point on the isthmus of Panama and Central America. There are three locks. I doubt those locks are operated by like a bloke in shorts who's smoking a pipe. But erm...

The stress is you're approaching that you have to get off and move that lock. Oh shit! He's doing Werdel. So there are three locks which guide ships from one side to the other. In its present configuration, construction began in 1904, was completed and opened on 15 August 1914 at a cost of $500 million, or $15.2 billion. $15.2 billion!

I looked that up. Considerebly cheaper than HS2. To my mind, that does still seem quite reasonable. It's a lot of money, but for the Panama Canal, I'm not shocked it was pricey. No, no, no, no. I wasn't thinking it was going to be 40 quid. No, no, no. I've done one of these before. Oh yeah, I'll do that for you.

Just get three quotes, go for the middle one. Absolutely. The initial estimate was like maybe half a million done in a month. I reckon six weeks, me and Ted will knock it out, cover shovels, might get extra labour if we need it. I've got a mate called Patrick who'll do this. Oh no, he's a good bloke, he's a good bloke. He'll do it for you. I've got some pictures of other canals I've dug. On his phone. His Instagram. So, there was an extension undertaken in the 2000s, which I didn't know, which opened

in 2016. The first ship to cross, officially, was the American cargo ship, the SS Ancon. Now, the background history of the canal is much older. What's interesting is that it reflects the imperial rivalries that dominated that part of the canals much older, what's interesting is that it reflects the imperial rivalries that dominated that part of the world for centuries. So first up were the Spanish in the 16th century, who wanted to assert their power over the entire Americas and make traveling between Spain and Peru on the west coast of South America much easier.

So Spanish surveyors began mapping parts of Central America to find an appropriate route, although none was ever built. Fast forward then to the 19th century, it was the turn of American and British investors to attempt the same endeavour, but neither proved successful. Instead, the Americans built an overland railway with ships travelling to the eastern or western ports and cargoes carried between them by steam locomotive. Now that transformed the prospects of trade and shipping in the western hemisphere

because the fastest lanes were running between California and the east coast of the United States and you could do that in just 40 days. So speed was essential, obviously, because time is money. So the Americans began developing plans for a canal to supplement the railway. And they modeled the idea of domestic long-range canal systems such as New York's Erie Canal or the big ones elsewhere in the world, for example the Suez Canal

in Egypt. So it felt to France though to begin the first phase of construction work in 1881, in part because they've been very successful in constructing the Suez Canal. So then you've got the outbreak of the American Civil War and the period of reconstruction in that country. It provided destruction for would-be American investors. Now this line really made me laugh, but French engineers found the task overwhelming. Can you imagine that? You're in the office. You're like, right, you need to build a waterway that is going to link so you can travel between the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean. No problem, boss. Fucking hell, it's... Oh my god. Oh my god, it's absolutely massive. How quickly do you think they found it overwhelming, though, well? I imagine they accepted the job, they said, that's good money, we'll do it, and it would be after the first morning

meeting that you would dawn on them. I think you start work at nine, you stop at half ten for a cup of tea and you're like, this is insane. No, no, no, no. I reckon, I reckon day one, you do all of the stuff like you get your new email address. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. IT just setting you up. Yeah, IT is setting you up. You get a fob. Yeah.

You find out where the coffee machine is. Read the handbook. All that kind of stuff. You read the handbook. You're like fob, you find out where the coffee machine is, all that kind of stuff. You read the handbook, you're like, okay then, so where's the stationery if I need it? All right, okay. You Google what a canal is. Google what a canal is. You meet everyone in the office, you realise that Damsels is a different company, but it's the same, you know, and you know, so you get to know a couple of people, find out that they've got a five a side game on the Monday night.

So we can have whatever we want from the canteen and not pay for it. That is amazing. You get your head around that. It's one of those companies. Well, there's a different special every day. So I can always have chips, but there's a special... Okay. And what is it today? Oh, soup. Yeah. I don't know. I will have soup actually. I'm watching my weight. So it's all of that kind of stuff. Okay. That's day one. Day two then, you're getting to know the rest of the team. You're organising drinks. You're like, yeah. I reckon it's day three, like, well, it's hard, but, you know, I knew it would be hard. Day four,

you're like, fucking hell, this is solid. Day four, when the map is put up on the board. Yeah, yeah. Day five, you're taking it easy because it's Friday. We'll come at this again on Monday, guys, OK? Look, fresh eyes. What are you going to do the weekend? And you're like, oh yeah, you're sure we'll come at this again on Monday, guys, okay? Look, fresh eyes. What are you going to do the weekend? And you're like, oh yeah, you're told we'll come out. And the first thing Monday morning, we'll get stuck into it. Yeah, yeah, we'll get stuck into it. Monday morning, you shit yourself. Quit at 20 past nine. You spend the weekend looking for jobs which are nowhere near water.

Just complete career change, yeah. So, the French got overwhelmed. By the end of the 1880s after severe losses of personnel 200 deaths a month. What? By the mid 1880s. In the building of it? Yeah, yeah. The French just gave up.

So they'd been defeated. There was a combination of disease. They were building it through jungle. Obviously the jungle had many poisonous animals and insects. Oh my goodness. There were venomous snakes, malarial mosquitoes. The French just thought, okay, this is impossible. We can't do this.

I never thought about it being jungle. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Crazy. Exactly. So the Americans got involved again at the start of the 20th century. So the Central American Canal Project had become, by this point, a matter of pride for the US.

So they thought, if we can't for the US. They thought if we can't sort this kind of thing, if we can't succeed with this sort of initiative, how will we ever supplant Great Britain as the world's superpowers? It's become a prestige thing. So Teddy Roosevelt was in the White House and they thought to themselves, there's no stopping American ambition and this is our imperial backyard. So the first challenge was securing the land. So this was achieved by cajoling Columbia to give up that part of its territory to reform the independent Republic of Panama.

So this treaty was ratified in November, 1903. Panama was immediately recognized by the US and the US Navy, providing military protection in case Columbia reneged on this deal. But it wasn't a philanthropic act, right? So the Americans extracted a price. They thought what they wanted was the land to build their canal. So Panama's newly independent government, obviously, was in no position to refuse. So in the US, the move was seen as an American, because they thought this is an imperial land grab and it's got a slight whiff of European colonialism about it. But

when all was said and done, the Americans had created the conditions to begin work on the Panama Canal, which began in May 1904. So the project's chief engineers were more used to railways than waterways. I would ship myself then, because that's like being a really good electrician and being asked to do the plumbing. You know, well, I've seen it done. I mean, I've been in a room when it's been done, but I was sort of doing other stuff. For instance, the project's chief engineers, as I said, they were more used to railways, but they had to adjust quickly. And they also had to make the most of new medical advances to protect the workforce. So they had to get loads of mosquito nets. They became an essential supply, along with early forms of

bug spray and insecticide. So the workforce was drawn from outside Panama, both from the US and the Caribbean, and the construction zone became almost like a brand new city, full of social life and new resources. Oh wow! So this is amazing. One institution with a strong presence was the YMCA, which had several club houses built throughout the area, And they provided alternatives to saloons and bars, including libraries, gyms, basketball courts, billiard tables, ice cream parlours and even bowling alleys. And so this is wherever the construction is happening, this is springing up?

Yeah, yeah. A bit like Glastonbury. So by the time it opened, it had a really significant impact on global trade because ports along the traditional route via Patagonia, the Falkland Islands and Chile, they all suffered economic losses. So in Chile, the economy shrank by as much as 50%. Wow. Because shipping companies were adjusting their lanes to run through the new facility.

Wow. So it absolutely knackered the Chilean economy. So by the 1970s, American ownership of the canal had become very contentious, not least for the Panamanians, who regarded it as very hypocritical. So how could the Americans force Britain and France to surrender control of the Suez Canal to Egypt,

for instance, as they'd done in 1956, the Suez Crisis, when they refused the same principle in relation to the Panama Canal. So, I felt that Jimmy Carter, who was president at the time, and he was keen to restore American dignity in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal. So, he negotiated the transfer of the canal to Panama

with his counterpart, Omar Torrios. The Torrios-Carter Treaty was signed in 1977, became active in 1975, and it provided a 20-year process of withdrawal so the Americans would be out of the Panama Canal by the 31st of December 1999. Was it a 20-year process of withdrawal because barges are so slow? How long it takes to get a barge out of the canal? Do you reckon when they were signing the treaty they were like, well, obviously 31st of December

1999, well, I'll be, on the part of America. Yeah. So since then the Panama Canal has been operated by the Panamanians themselves. That's fascinating. Astonishing. The most amazing bit is, as you say Chris, the fact that they had to build it straight through a jungle. Yeah. Snakes! Snakes! Snakes!

Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! Snakes! the Panamanians themselves. That's fascinating. Astonishing. The most amazing bit is, as you say, Chris,

the fact that they had to build it straight through a jungle. Yeah. Snakes and stuff. That is a nightmare job. I just find those big infrastructure projects so fascinating. Yeah. Because it involves a couple of things

I find very impressive, like the imagination to think of it in the first place, and also the ability and the wherewithal to drive it through as a project and the money. Yes. Yeah. I once went on holiday to Panama, right? Did you? And I was staying there overnight and we were asleep. And in the middle of the night, about 3am, a entire marching band walked down the street outside our hotel. And I'd love the listeners to tell me what this was. Were you playing them in a World Cup final?

Apparently Panama got its independence at 3am on this day. And so the town goes wild at 3am on this random day. A marching band playing, banging the drums, everything walked through the town in Panama. Did you embrace it or were you yelling, keep it down? I was terrified. I thought I was having a fever dream or something. It was insane. Exactly.

People say it was a struggle building a canal through a rainforest. They haven't experienced anything as horrific as a marching band going past a window briefly at 3am then moving on into the night. episodes every month to every month and you get access to the entire back catalog of Oh What A Time bonus episodes of which there are many at this point and only available to subscribers as well they are a special resource of special people and it's all ad free to sign up go to OhWhatATime.com otherwise we'll see you tomorrow for part two. Bye bye. Bye. Follow Oh What A Time on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

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