Oh What A Time... - #96 Quirky Monarchs (Part 2)

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed!This week on the show we’re discussing regents who were, let’s say, a bit different. We’ll be meeting the 11th century Norwegian King Magnus Barefoot, we’ve got the avid collector that was George III and let’s find out how terrible Russia’s Ivan the Terrible actually is.And this week we’re bemoaning expiry dates and the roulette of consuming slightly off food. Elis is happy to consume nuts that are 8 years out of date, but as Tom points out.. “you never see a squirrel with a Tommy ache”. If you’ve got anything on this or anything else: [e-mail] you fancy a bunch of OWAT content you’ve never heard before, why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER?Up for grabs is:- two bonus episodes every month!- ad-free listening- episodes a week ahead of everyone else- And much moreSubscriptions are available via AnotherSlice and Wondery +. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.comYou can also follow us on: X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepodAnd Instagram at @ohwhatatimepodAaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice?Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk).Chris, Elis and Tom xSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello, this is part two of Quirky Monarchs. Let's get on with the show. Okay, I'm taking you back. King George III. When I think of King George III, I think of one thing. That is the 1994 film, The Madness of King George, which famously became The Madness of King George and not The Madus of King George the Third, because they were worried that people might think, oh shit, I've not seen the first two. Oh, that's amazing. That's such a good fact. You can't jump in halfway through the franchise and expect to know what's going on. Yeah, it's a Henry VIII film is the one that people are really worried about. You missed the first seven. Henry VIII. I think it was a play initially that was called The Mandus of King George. That's fantastic.

Although I've just looked it up because I remember going to see The Mandus of King George III in the cinema. I remember reading that on the way to the film and laughing in a sort of, because I was about 13, thinking, oh God, such idiots. Even though I knew nothing about King George III. But director Nicholas Heitner said,

"'It's not totally untrue, but there's also the factor "'that it was felt necessary to get the word King "'in the title.'" Because I think the play was called The Mandus of George III, and they change it to The Mandus of King George. Right, so that's what I think of when I think of King George. A few other things, he lost America, that was his fault. And he

was also, he was big into agriculture. He was known as Farmer George. But in this topic, we're looking at other things, right? So he had an absolute obsession with books and cartography. So he had this massive library of maps and plans and drawings, about 50 to 60,000 items. And the book collection added another 60,000 items and 19,000 pamphlets, right? Now this was so precious to him that his library was kept as close as possible to him. So he was in the room next door to his bedroom.

So he didn't have a walk-in sort of closet for his clothes when on the suite. He had a walk-in floor-to-ceiling library right next to his bedroom because he just, he had a real collector's mindset. Because I suppose back in those days, if you had an interest, you could pursue it to the letter, couldn't you, if you were a monarch? Will Barron Absolutely. Will Barron If you were into something.

Will Barron And you had the wealth. Will Barron You had the wealth. You're like, do you know what, I'm going to really get into Panini stickers and I'm just going to keep buying them until I finish this sodding album. Yeah, I love the idea of a room full of books and pamphlets. I love that, a space just for that is so, that's such a nice idea to me, a place for you to sit and read.

Now, he wasn't the only British monarch to have a collector's mindset. So his descendant, his namesake, George V, was absolutely obsessed with stamp collecting. Now he established the Royal Stamp Collection and famously spent 1450 quid on a single stamp in 1904. Which this blew my mind, it's about 150 grand today. And the story goes, a courtier apparently quipped to George, he was like some damned fool, has paid as as £1400 for one stamp.

To which George replied, yeah, it's me. I was, I am the damned fool. Listen, I'm a king and I love stamps, okay? When you were at school, Al, did people used to do the game, do you collect stamps? Do you remember that? No, I don't remember this. So do you remember, they must have done this at your school, Chris. Someone will come up to you and go, do you collect stamps? And if you said yes, they go, here's one for your

collection and they'd stamp on your toe. Stamp on your foot. Oh yes. If you said no, they go, here's one to start your collection and they'd stamp on your foot. Basically there was no way of not getting stamped on. But that would happen at least once a month in my school to everyone. Watertight that, isn't it? It's a good bit of violent business.

Yeah. I'm thinking about it. Well, just in case you do, here's a stamp on the toe. You can't get up to me. I threw my stamp collection into the sea. Yes. Well, here's another stump for you to start again, because you've ruined your... Oh, God.

Yes, sorry. There's no way out. Or you could just say, no, and I don't ever want to have a stump. I really don't even want a single one to start my collection. Is that OK? I have no interest in stamps, and I don't want one. No, but do you collect methods of strangling? And they'll be like... and I don't want one. I'm trying. No, but do you collect methods of strangling?

And he'll be like... There you go. Ugh! Now Queen Victoria collected dolls, which I think is quite boring, isn't it, collecting dolls? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A master collection of more than 130 examples

during her childhood, which for me, considering she's a queen, not enough. Yeah, not impressive enough. You know, there must be kids who aren't royal with more than $130 out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just, other monarchs focus their efforts on art. Charles I, Charles II, George IV,

each amassed large art collections. But George III had a great topographical collection. He had a big collection of maps and things. It stands out because at the time, it was the single greatest window onto the 18th century world. And it captured the UK, which was increasingly rapidly being industrialized

at the time. So through his lifetime, George collected all sorts of materials. Some of it was hundreds of years old, some of it was much more recent. And he used intermediaries and sales room assistants and agents to go out and purchase material on his behalf, whether it was in the UK or Britain

or elsewhere around the world. In one go, he spent 20 grand, which in today's money is about 3.5 million pounds, to buy up the library of a British diplomat living in Venice. He sent one million to Rome to buy prints and drawings there. What a cushy job. The cushiest job I've ever heard of is that in the 1990s on SLC, the Welsh Language Channel 4, they used to have a TV show that was a precursor to Get a Football

Italia and Football Italian, all those sorts of programmes, where it showed Italian and Spanish football. So Welsh speakers and people who were able to get Welsh language television to people in Bristol and Liverpool for instance, we were privy to Serri Ann La Liga before people in England, right? I knew of a bloke and his job was to go out to watch AC Milan, film it and then just bring the tapes back. Wow! That's a lovely job. That's so great.

What, just like bring his own camera? Like go over to the San Siro? Do you know what? I'm not even sure if he was filming it. I think he was just going out to Italy to get the tapes. Wow. So we'd go out there, watch the game and then someone say, there you go, that's the video from tonight, cheers mate. And then you just fly back. That's the greatest job I've ever heard of.

That is up there. And I think being sent up to Rome to buy a map for the king. Because you'd be given per diems. You'd be given a budget. You'd have your ticket bought for you probably. I reckon that would be a difficult to mess up. Was that favour repaid when Stereo Hours was being played in Wales? In Italy were they getting to watch Total Networks and Ushans versus... Yeah, yeah. It was a combination. It was the Cymru Prem and it was the best of Soccer Sunday, which at the time was Cardiff City, Swansea City and Nexham in League 1 and 2. That's why there's four million Swansea fans in Milan, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, Aberystwy Town, a massive in Italy. Now, in George's library

at Buckingham House, not Buckingham Palace, he could draw plans of the American colonies, for example. Eastern provinces of Canada, most of Europe, the Indian subcontinent, Eastern South Asia. For example, he had a plan of Manila in the Philippines. And these were places he was never going to visit. So he was using it a bit like you might use Google Street View now. He was just like, yeah, I'll have a look at Manila today. I love this. He was never gonna go there, but he just thought, yeah, I'm gonna have a look at my map of Indonesia.

Now, just like Wikipedia, George wanted to develop an accessible institution, one that would be used rather than just gathering dust in a palace. So this was achieved when the maps and books were donated to the British Museum by George IV and became part of the wealth of the nation. Now, he had a reputation as a farmer and sort of in contrast to that reputation

of being a sort of country gentleman who was obsessed with agricultural science, when it came to a catalog in the Royal Library, it turned out that the largest proportion of books were about history rather than law, religion, science or art. And he didn't even like contemporary writers, people like Sir Walter Scott. He wanted to know about the past. For instance, he cherished his copy of Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Follow the Roman Empire. Now that book, Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Follow the Roman Empire, if you read history books, it crops up relatively

often still. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, relatively often still. I mean, it's one of those things maybe. I remember that in A-level being mentioned. That was definitely one that was constantly... I'm sure we've read bits of that. Will I get round to it? Because, you know, I can see Craig Bellamy's autobiography is calling to me. The call of Craig Bellamy. I love this though. I love that he has that thirst for knowledge and a wonderlust. Because you can see that it's very easy for a royal just to enjoy the opulence of it all. Yeah, because he wasn't even needed to do corporate events like they are nowadays. Yeah, exactly. Just laze away your days drinking wine or whatever it could be.

Well Queen Charlotte, his wife, she also had these reading habits. She was a very dedicated reader. Her own collection, Catalogue After Her Death, included four and a half thousand items. A lot of contemporary writers, Jane Austen, Goethe. She also had a range of literature for children. She also loved classics like Paradise Lost. George IV was a big fan of Jane Austen. It must have been quite weird. I don't know if Jane Austen ever knew that. Yeah. Because Paul McCartney is a very big fan of British comedy. He likes panel shows.

Does he? So if you've been on a panel show, he probably knows who you are. That's mad that you've consumed content created panel show, he probably knows who you are. That's mad that you've consumed content created by Paul McCartney and he's probably consumed content created by you. Yeah, yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Wow, that's blown my mind. Like, he went up to Matt Lucas once when Matt was still on Shooting Stars.

He was like, hey you, you're the drummer. Because he used to love Shooting Stars. Love that. You sort of think that the super famous are just doing different things with their time, but actually they're just sitting around watching telly like normal people. Oh, padding it out towards death, aren't we? We're just trying to find things to do before we slip off this mortal coil, is that it? Yeah, mate.

So his podcast is, we know which bookshop these copies of Jane Austen were bought from. He was buying them from Beckett and Porter of 81 Palmal in London. And we know exactly when because the invoice is still survived. Love that. So he bought Sense and Sensibility in 1811, he bought Pride and Prejudice in 1813, he bought Mansfield Park from Budden Colkin, another bookshop on 100 Palmal, he bought that in 1814. You can see where his card was initially rejected at Waterstones.

Then he had to try a different one. Will Barron What's interesting is that these details in the lives of George III and Queen Charlotte, they illustrate that popular histories punch on for the mad and the bad, and the dangers to know when it comes to the monarchs that we find interesting. It gets in the way of details that are often more interesting. So, you know, you think Queen Charlotte, she'd have been reading about Mr Darcy and, you know, the sort of social obsessions that Jane Austen wrote about. That was a hot topic of the day, and she would have had an opinion because she'd read the book. Will Barron Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Will Barron I don't know what I'd be collecting if I was a monarch,

but it's quite nice the idea that I could just indulge all of my little interests. Yeah, I love that. So to finish today's show, I am going to talk to you guys about Ivan the Terrible, okay? Thoughts on that being your nickname for eternity, very briefly? I reckon he's probably quite proud of it. Yeah. I think he's a nice bloke who's been misrepresented.

I think he's probably like, yeah, he was pretty fucking terrible, actually. Good. Yes. I think if you're going for nicknames, you want it to be memorable. So I don't think Olaf the peaceful is just not good enough. I think you want to be great, a conqueror or terrible. Terrible fine. Well we will find out whether it was deserved. It kind of was, but there's some interesting sort of aspects around that. I mean it could have been worse than Ivan the Terrible and here's a few that I've discovered, to give you these. There's a guy called Viscount Goderich the Blubberer, which was 1782, who was the British Prime Minister between August 1827, January

1828. His nickname was earned by shedding tears over the fatalities incurred during the rioting against the Corn Laws. So he became the blubberer. There was a Viking hero by the name of Ragnar who got the name Ragnar Hairypants because of the pants he wore when slaying a dragon or giant serpent. I think in that situation I'd be Tom Shitty Pants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ellis pants from John Lewis actually. Absolutely, yeah. There is Pericles who is the son of an Athenian politician, who according to historians Herodotus and Plutarch was destined for greatness. The story was that his mother gave birth to a lion.

Then myths began that Pericles had this huge head and he got the nickname Pericles Onion Head. That's what he was known as. Proper schoolyard stuff. Yeah, absolutely. My favourite one is Charles XIV, who was the King of Norway in Sweden from 1818 until his death. He had a very smart appearance and he got the nickname Sergeant Pretty Legs. Which is the sort of thing you can have on the back of your shirt on a stag day. Sergeant Pretty Legs. Love that. There you are. Now, that's not who we're here to discuss. We're not here to discuss Sergeant Pretty Legs. We're here to discuss Ivan the Terrible. Now, his nickname, I think it's fair to say was deserved. It was earned from his awful reputation as a really brutal ruler.

Ivan IV of Russia is the other one known. But he does have a complicated story. He was notorious for his bad temper, his autocratic whims, his vanity, and also, this is the sort of thing that shows why he got this nickname, for killing his eldest son in a fit of rage. His reign also marked a turning point, however, in Russian history. So this is where the other side of things come in. He hefted the state out of the Dark Ages and sort of set the stage for a more modern Russia. So he did achieve some things.

Things he achieved included installing the first printing press in Russia, in Moscow in 1553. That's so early to me, 1553, the first printing press. Amazing, in Moscow in 1553. That's so early to me, 1553, the first printing press. Amazing, isn't it? Yeah. He commissioned the iconic St Basil's Cathedral two years later. He also introduced local governments to rural areas. So he did some quite sort of socially minded things when he wasn't killing his eldest son. However, as the name suggests, he was also a bit of a wrong-un. Okay, so let's go through a few of the things that Ivan the Terrible did which suggest why he

got this name. Mainly from a violent wave of suppression, this is where the name comes from, of the aristocracy which was launched in 1565, which led to mass executions, the creation of Russia's first secret police, the black cloaked and black horse riding, Oprichinina, and forced resettlement of swathes of the population. Now, are you ready for some fun facts about that time that might make you think, I'm glad I didn't live in Russia in 1565, okay? I'd like to get your take on each of these. The Oppertunina, which is this horse riding group, were given carte blanche by Ivan the Terrible to murder or torture anyone even suspected of being a traitor. So anyone that this group felt might be a traitor, they could just murder without any… So you can't even plead your case.

Exactly. I will describe what happened, Ellis. They would ride into towns and villages wearing just murder without any… So you can't even plead your case? Exactly. I will describe what happened Ellis. They would ride into towns and villages wearing a severed dog head on their saddles to signify they were sniffing out of traitors. Oh my god. Why does the dog head have to be severed? Just bring a dog.

You're just trying to make a bit of a loose point. I think the sword says enough. Well, their favourite execution methods included boiling alive, impalement, being roasted over an open fire, or being torn limb by limb by horses. Oh, I'd go horses. It's going to be quicker, isn't it? Well, you know the boiling alive, do they start with it cold and it warms up? Because there might be a moment in that where it's just a nice bath. Also, isn't there a thing like crabs or frogs don't know they're being boiled alive when

it's heated up slowly? Yeah, your nerves die at some point, so it's not that bad. I'm reading a history of Europe at the moment. We have been cruel forever. And I mean really horribly cruel. And we're still cruel. And we're bad. Humans are bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. We're horrible bastards. And I fear that we will continue to be cruel into the future. I don't see this sort of

tying up neatly in 2025. Roasting alive. Well, I'd say that's not even the worst of them. During an assault on Russian's second largest city, Novgorod, in 1570, prominent merchants and noblemen were roasted alive on specially constructed frying pans. Oh, jeez. I think it's one of the worst things I've ever heard. They constructed frying pans and they roasted the merchants and nobleman alive on them.

Imagine that order coming into the blacksmithing shop. Yeah, yeah. I need what we're doing, a lovely big paella for the whole town? Yeah. Yeah. So, a frying pan beginner for a blo whole town? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stop it like that. A frying pan big enough for a bloke? Yeah, I could do that. You're not going to be using it for nefarious purposes, are you? No, no, no, no, no.

No, big, just a big bloke shaped paella. I just think it's a measure we can all understand the size of a bloke, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, big bloke. You know what a bloke looks like. I know what a bloke looks like. It's just an easy measure. So I can probably have that done by next week for you actually. The old big book flying by. All in all, 12,000 of its citizens were killed and it took the city centuries to recover. So just absolute horror from this. Various explanations have been raised as to why Ivan,

who had seemed like a reformer early at the start of his reign, ended up heading down this sort of path of just terrible violence. Some point to the loss of his first wife, who was apparently poisoned to death, and then successive wise, or also poisoned or otherwise murdered. He really hit a bad run there as different aristocrats jockeyed for power. In all, Ivan married at least six times with two further marriages not officially recorded and he even proposed to Elizabeth I. Gave that a shot. And then, on a fateful night in November 1581, another one of his family died. Now, this time with his own hands, as I've described, during an argument with his daughter-in-law, Yelena, not wearing proper clothes. Imagine living

that life, roasting people on a pan and still feeling you're in a place to judge people because they're not wearing the proper clothes. Or, if you're the daughter, can you imagine thinking to yourself, yeah, it is quite a short skirt but Dad won't mind when he's roasting people in frying pans. Yeah, absolutely. Dad won't mind. Dad's all right. Dad'll see sense. Exactly. Yeah, completely. I'm sure he was just having an off day. His eldest son, who was husband to Jelena and also Ivan's heir, he's also called

Ivan, then intervened to protect his wife, at which point Ivan the Terrible attacked him with a staff, giving him a fatal head injury. That I could, that I'd take. That, what, just a whack to the what? Just a whack to the temple? Just a whack to the temple. Take that of a being roasted, live or boiled, alive or pulled apart by horses. Bloody hell. However, and this is what is kind of interesting about it, and you mentioned earlier, Chris, the idea that he clearly deserved this nickname. I think we can probably assume that. Interestingly,

despite all this, Ivor the Terrible didn't earn his nickname until long after his death, with it sticking permanently to him only in the 18th century. And actually, in Russia, in both the 20th and 21st centuries, his terrible name has actually come to be seen in a more positive light, so as strong leadership has come to be ever more valued in a Russian context. Stalin was a big fan. Putin is still a big fan. In fact, in Soviet times, there was a personality cult developed around the idea of Ivan the Terrible, especially in the 40s, when the USSR was embroiled in the Second World War and in the first stages of the Cold War. This idea of a strong leader being a thing to be celebrated. And there's

still today, there are some historians even, who refuse to believe the horror stories at all. Some who point to paranoia, balance of mental ill health as factored as in the behaviour. Indeed, there are historians who are fairly agreed that he had periods in his life when he was not entirely sane and was driven to rage. I think that's probably fair to say, is it? I think if you're frying someone on a massive pan then maybe something is going on. You're dealing with something. It's like when Izzy and I argue and Izzy says, but this isn't about the light switch, is it? And I go, no. Yeah, that's because I haven't slept enough and I haven't done my prep for a

lot of time. I'm lashing out. Exactly. Others refuse to accept the horror stories at all and point to the fact that Yeah, that's because I haven't slept enough and I haven't done my prep for a water time. I'm lashing out. Exactly. Others refuse to accept the horror stories at all and point to the fact that terrible in its original meaning of the word simply means powerful or mighty. And as a result, some historians suggest that Ivan has actually been the victim of propaganda portraying him as horrible, even evil, to show Russia itself as sort of backwards and in need of European enlightenment. By contrast, they would point to Ivan's religious sentiments, his relative tolerance of religious minorities, particularly Muslims, his populism with ordinary

Russians, his establishment of exclusive trade and diplomatic relationships with England, and his enthusiasm for chess as indications that he was really, by the standards of the time, undeserving of his reputation. But I suppose what's interesting is that it's all really a matter of perspective. When Ivan's ill-prepared younger son and his remaining heir, the one he hadn't smacked in the temple with a pole, Theodore succeeded him in 1584. Diplomatic relations with England were immediately cut off at Theodore's insistence. The new Tsar preferred a more general openness towards European trade rather than limiting it to the English, whom, and this is the reason he cut it off, he found us pompous and irritating. I love the idea of cutting off trade routes because you find the other side annoying.

Well, basically Donald Trump's doing it right now. That's exactly true. Yeah, he is. That's why he's putting tariffs up. He's like, oh, God, the Canadians. Exactly. And as a final point, maybe to balance Ivan's quirkiness, who we say, with the horror shows that happened elsewhere, I think that lies in his decision on his accession to the Russian throne in 1547. This is the sort of thing he did, which he was a kind of a mixed guy, to establish a network of pubs all over Russia, known in Russian, called the Kabat. And I'll get your final thoughts on this. These were run by state and patrons were able to build up large debts. So basically

you could go in there, get your drink and build up a debt. The whole point of the network being to raise money for the state treasury, a ride upon the simple understanding that as one of Ivan's royal predecessors put it, drinking is the joy of Russia. We cannot exist without its pleasure. So basically he used it as a form of taxation, but you could go into a pub, you could get your drink and you could just build up a debt to the state that you would then pay off. And I guess if you know that he's willing to roast people in a man-sized pan, you probably are going to pay off that debt eventually, aren't you? You're going to make sure that you pay your tab.

I'm never getting a red letter from him. No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. So it's interesting that this guy, Ivan the Terrible, is still held as sort of a hero in Russia, in some parts of Russia. And by Putin himself, Putin still sees him as someone who could actually be celebrated because he was a powerful leader. Well, I'm not going to sleep tonight. There you go.

Dreaming about being roasted in a bloke-sized frying pan. Oh, Christ. But I imagine myself getting fried in a big frying pan. I'm being fried by a big giant to who has the same body ratio as the pan. Yeah, huge clove of garlic next to me. Cracking a big black pepper grinder over my head, blocking out the sun. The giant turning to another giant saying, do you want him sunny side up before flipping me over?

Well, Tom, that's it for this week. flipping me over. Well Tom, that's it for this week. It is. Nightmares about frying pans coming. Yeah, absolutely. Walking down Dream Street with a big old pan and a big old olive oil. I can only apologise to the listeners for the horrific images. Actually, do you know what?

It's more Ivan the Terrible for actually doing it than me reporting it, isn't it? Surely if blame should be laid at anyone's doorstep, surely it has to be at his doorstep. More. And I can say that because he's been dead for hundreds of years, so I feel happy to say it. But I love that. That was kind of a great episode. Listeners, dear listeners, yes you the listener, if you have any episodes you'd like us to cover, do email in any subject you want us to chat about, to talk through. We're always open to your ideas. We love your involvement. Email the show with anything you want to tell us. To get in touch with the show, you can email hello at owhatatime.com. If you want bonus

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