Ologies with Alie Ward - Addictionology (ADDICTION) with Erin Parisi

Episode Date: April 23, 2019

"Addiction doesn't have to be a bummer!," quoth addictionologist Erin Parisi, who has some uplifting and hopeful tales from her professional life. But content warning: it's definitely not a day in the park. Tune in for some info on alcohol dependence, smoking, opiates, behavioral addictions, how addiction can futz with your reward systems, some sobering statistics, what we can learn from rat parties, how childhood experiences can set the stage for substance dependence later, how many people are in recovery, what to do if a friend or loved one seems to have a problem, how to tell if you might have a problem, enjoying your grandpa's casserole, cuddling babies and more.Erin Parisi's website: www.erincanhelp.comTo find publicly-funded treatment centers in your state, call 1-800-622-HELP or go to www.findtreatment.samhsa.govFor sliding scale therapy, look into openpathcollective.orgDonations were made to: DrugAbuse.gov and EndtheBacklog.orgSponsor links: KiwiCo.com/ologies, StitchFix.com/ologies, Zola.com/ologiesMore links at alieward.com/ologies/addictionologyBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologiesOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes!Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologiesFollow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWardSound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray MorrisTheme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh hey, it's green tea, which is delicious and satisfying as is and does not want or need to have mint or jasmine or tropical or blueberry pomegranate essence thrown in. Thank you very much, Allie Ward. Back with another episode of Allergies. So this episode is exciting for just a whole hamper full of reasons. One being that it was recorded remotely. Now I just announced on Patreon this coming week I'll be in Kansas City, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minneapolis in Wisconsin.

I'm gathering up, I think, 11 face-to-face interviews withologists over six days, but thisologist was in Florida and I've been wanting to interview her for a while and I'm not going to make it to Florida for quite a bit. So we just tried a remote tactic. So if the audio is any different than you're used to, it's just me figuring out the nitty-gritty of an LDR, a long distance recording. It's an amazing interview. But before we get to it, thank you to all the folks on Patreon.

I would not be going on this Midwest road trip or not for y'all. It's been my goal since the start of the podcast in 2017. I'm interviewing people who have been on my spreadsheet for actual years. Also thank you to anyone out there wearing Allergies merch, making new friends in the wild, and of course all of the Raiders and the subscribers and reviewers. You know I read each one so that I can pick a freshie to highlight. This week it's Everest 18, I think, there's no vowels in that, who says every time I see an episode, for example, Hagfishology and think, I don't know how interesting this

will be. I start playing the episode and it's amazing, super interesting and one of my favorites. Now I'm like Hagfish, yes, wow. So make your life and the world better by listening to Allergies and becoming another loyal child of Dadward. Thank you, my tiny being, I pat you on the head. Okay, addictionology, yes, yes, yes, it's a word, it's a thing. So the term has existed for years, but it was only in 2016 that the field of addiction

medicine was formally recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties. It's an official subspecialty now. So there's a little trivia. So thisologist is also an oligite, she's a listener of the podcast and she had emailed me way, way back and I thought, what, awesome. So this past Saturday we rigged a recording, both of us, in weekend lounge wear and we talked shop about her life and her work. People hear about the ways our brains make us want things and your grandpa's casserole

and identifying what might be driving the need for a substance, how serious substance use disorders are, thoughts on the show, intervention, some hope, some media tropes that help, some that don't, the times she's cried on the job, the lure of workahol and other non-substance addictions and more. So pull on something cozy and settle in for the experiences of licensed mental health counselor and a master's level certified addictions professional. Addictionologist Erin Parisi. And now you were the first person on planet Earth to inform me that addictionology is

a thing. It is a thing, yes. When did you become aware of addictionology as a field? Well, I knew that therapists treat people who have addictions and I knew that there were doctors that treated people who have addictions but I don't know that I ever really knew of the word until I started going to addiction treatment conferences and probably somebody there used it the first time and when I look it up it says, when I look the term up it says that it's professionals who study and treat addiction which is certainly

me but I think mostly it's probably used to reference medical doctors and I'm a therapist. So I come at it from the behavioral perspective. Do you feel like there's a kind of divide where people think it's just behavioral as opposed to medical as well? Do we have a lot of different stigmas about it? Well, absolutely. There's a ton of stigmas about it. I think a lot of people think that addiction is a choice and that's kind of an old school

line of thinking. The more and more research that's done, the more we know that it's not really a choice that there's a lot that goes into it. It's not as simple as somebody choosing to drink a lot or do a lot of drugs and there's a whole background to it but I think both pieces are equally important. We need to be treating it like it's a disease or a disorder not as though there's something just wrong with the person that it's a choice or that it's a spiritual deficiency. Right.

It does seem like in the past or still presently that a lot of people just attribute it to a character flaw. Yes. That's absolutely true, which makes getting people into treatment even harder because who wants to admit they have an addiction problem and go to treatment? If doing so means you have a character defect. It's pretty painful to look at yourself that way so the more we look at it like a disorder or a medical disease, the easier it is for people to seek treatment just like you would

for other disorders or other diseases. So quick aside, there'll be much, much more on addiction as a disease in a bit. But first, how I came to know her work. And now you emailed me a while ago and I think that you're- I just heard the ology zoology episode. Yes, I really, really wanted to do this topic for so long and I didn't know if it was an ology and your subject line in the email was addiction. It doesn't have to be a bummer.

I already love you. Well, because I know like you don't always want to cover the super heavy topics and addiction certainly can be, but there's a lot of non-bummery things to it also. That's what keeps us in the field, I think, so yeah. So what got you into the field? What made you steer your old career boat in this direction? I don't think, well, I guess I won't say anyone, but I know a lot of people who work in addiction did not pick addiction on purpose and that is definitely true for me.

Really? Yes, I fell into it just like so many other people do. I was at the end of my master's degree and I needed an internship and I was having a lot of difficulty getting a placement that would also allow me to keep working while I interned. One of the programs that was more flexible and could work with me and work with my work schedule was a program that was geared towards treating HIV positive clients and some of which did not have addictions, but some certainly did.

That was really when I started working with people who had addiction and when I finished my internship and I graduated my master's program, I was offered a job at a different part of the same organization working primarily with addiction. So I got into it right away and I ended up really loving it. It's a good fit for my personality. It's a tough population, but tremendously rewarding, I love it so much. Why do you think about it was a good fit for your personality? Were you as a kid when you grew up, were you always kind of interested in people's mental

health or were you interested in behavioral? What clicked for you? I always knew I wanted to go into psychology and that I wanted to be a therapist. Ever since I was really little, I have absolutely been interested in people. I definitely wanted to help people and I do not have the stomach for medical things. I can't do blood and guts and stuff, so doctoring was never going to be part of my thing. So Erin got her bachelor's in psychology and a master's in counseling at University of Central Florida in Orlando and she's been practicing for nearly a decade working at

inpatient and outpatient rehabilitation centers. She conducts individual and group and family therapy sessions in everything from substance abuse to sex addictions. She knows her stuff, but when she was first starting out, is it weird when you're studying psychology to not diagnose yourself with everything or to diagnose everyone in your life with everything? How do you not do that? So they tell you in school not to diagnose yourself and not to diagnose the people around you because as they're teaching you things, you start seeing it in everyone around you,

right? And part of it is just like the excitement of starting to learn things, right? And some of it is maybe being a little too overconfident in your abilities. And they also recommend that you go see your own therapist and do some of your own work because it's really, really difficult to work with other people on their stuff if your own stuff isn't taken care of. And so I think that's really helpful. Was there anything that you realized like, oh, shit, I have to unpack this when you started

going to school? Of course. Do you get discounted sessions with people who are like, I'm also in school. I need to unpack my stuff. How do you do that? So I think, yes, I think most therapists want to help other therapists. So I think we try and do things like sliding fee scales, especially for students that we know are probably not making a lot of money.

But one of the most jarring things that I realized while I was in graduate school still was how much addiction there was in my own family. Really? I had just never seen it. And in talking about it with one of my friends, I was like, oh, shit. I just never really saw it before because I think so many people have the expectation that alcoholics or drug addicts are always homeless under a bridge, right? And that's not the majority of people.

So it's not as easy to spot all the time. Take a side. I'm going to run you down some stats because addiction is common. It affects all kinds of folks. So I'm just going to lovingly toss some numbers at your beautiful faces, kind of like a tennis ball machine thingy because this issue needs some context. And because all of these numbers represent real people with real lives, real struggles and families and friends who love them.

So number Palooza, here we go. Now the 2017 National Survey on Drug Use and Health revealed that almost 20 million people in America over the age of 12 battled a substance use disorder, 20 million. It's estimated that nearly 90,000 people die from alcohol related causes each year in America. Alcohol is the third leading cause of preventable deaths in the US. Eight overdose deaths were around 8,000 in 1999, but rose to 47,000 in 2017. So that 47,000 is well over the number of people lost in car crashes every year in America.

And 4.1 million people battled a marijuana use disorder in 2017. The majority of those people between the ages of 12 and 25 and of the 2.3 million people in American prisons and jails, more than 65%, meet the criteria for addiction. In terms of homeless people who are dependent on alcohol, about 38%. So the good news is that addiction is considered a highly treatable disease. About 10% of the people over 18 in the US that you met or know are in recovery from a substance abuse issue, 10%. But the latest stats show that only about one-fifth of the folks who need treatment

receive treatment. So imagine if only one-fifth of the folks diagnosed with cancer actually got treatment of any kind. So addictionology, pretty damn important. Addiction, pretty damn common. Also, pretty treatable with the right resources and support. How do you feel when you can see addiction in someone you know, but as someone who's not treating that person, you can't intervene or what really is the protocol there?

Yeah. It's a tough line to walk. And sometimes I just kind of have to take a step back because it's really hard to have a front row seat to something bad that's happening and not be able to do anything about it. And sometimes just as a friend, I'll throw something out there like, hey, have you thought about talking to somebody? Because when people find out that I'm a therapist, a lot of times they overshare with me. So that happens a lot.

Can't imagine. Yeah. The first interview I did with another therapist was a sex therapist like my very first semester in graduate school and he said, if you're ever on an airplane, never tell the person next to you that you're a therapist. And that was probably the best advice. So what do you do? You mentioned that you realized maybe there was more addiction in your family than previously

you were aware of. So what is addiction and why do you think that maybe we don't always realize it if it's in front of us? What's the actual definition of addiction? Well, I did look up the definition of addiction before we got on this because I didn't want to screw that one up. So I went by a SAMS definition, which is the American Society of Addiction Medicine, right? So they would be a good place to get that from.

Addiction is a primary chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory, and related circuitry. So it all happens in the brain, not that that's really shocking. And then addiction is characterized by an inability to consistently abstain impairment problems with one's behavior and interpersonal relationships and a dysfunctional emotional response. So that's a whole lot of verbiage there. Lay person definition, I usually say something like something becomes so important to you

that you're willing to sacrifice many other things in your life for it, which usually isn't noticed in people's lives until it progresses pretty far. So I think that's what makes it hard to spot it, that it can happen on a spectrum, right? So at one end, you do have the homeless under a bridge that have their cliche brown paper bag with a bottle in it, but not every alcoholic looks like that, right? So it's a whole spectrum. It happens a little bit at a time because even the very worst case of alcoholism or addiction you can think of started with the very first drink or the very first time getting

high when things were not a problem yet. So addiction can be to what exactly? I mean, I know we're talking about drugs, we're talking about alcohol, but addiction can also be addictive behaviors and compulsions, I imagine. So what are the more common addictions and is there a really big gulf between chemical addiction and behavioral? Different people may have different answers on that one. I think when we talk about addiction, most people picture alcohol or drugs and that is

fitting, obviously, but there are behavioral addictions. Things like gambling, food, sex, hoarding, even is on the addictive spectrum. Right now, the only behavioral addiction that makes it into our diagnostic manual is gambling. Really? What's happening with the dopamine sprinkler system in the brain when we start getting addicted to something or what neurotransmitters are involved, like what little squirt guns full of brain juices happen. So I like some really dumbed down version of it because I don't know if you know this,

but the brain is super complex. Yeah, I heard about that. It's like kind of a big deal, and I like to say even though they're both in the same place, my work is more with the mind than with the physical brain. So let's take a quick chemical detour, not in the magic school bus per se, but in my cosmic 2007 Prius. Let's tour our own squishy, fun, well-meaning animal brains. Okay, so when something is noise, it tends to produce a little kind of a mist of healthy

dopamine in the brain. That's a neurotransmitter. It makes us happy. Dopamine also helps with things like motor function and just fixing life problems. Dopamine can make us feel great from a bunch of stimuli. For me, I try to think of things that would make me so happy and seeing like a huge flying beetle. Ugh, I'd be so excited.

Or getting fresh movie popcorn or snorkeling a puppy. So the thing is, substances though can make us squirt out up to 10 times as much dopamine as just organic, situational, everyday hapies. And with the substance producing so much dopamine, your body's like, oh, fine. I guess you don't need me making any. Kind of like if your grandpa made you a pretty legit casserole that was your favorite, but you were like, sorry, Gramps. I filled up on Del Taco and I liked it more and I'm full now.

So your grandpa stops making you your favorite casserole dopamine. We're talking about dopamine here. So what I'm saying is that one way something becomes addictive is that dopamine responses get disturbed. Now early childhood neglect or trauma or just genetics can predispose us to certain neurobiology that makes our brain come into the game with some maybe less than ideal neurotransmitter situations. And it can feel easier for some of us to self-medicate with substances that don't require a doctor

or a prescription, but instead are just available at a party or a happy hour after work. Now Aaron also says that the human brain doesn't stop developing into the mid-20s and the part of your brain that develops last handles impulse control and decision making. So you literally don't have the part of your brain that will help you make good decisions and then you're trying things that could impair the way your brain develops. So this is how so-called gateway drugs can set someone up for a tougher road ahead, resisting more dangerous substances like some of the patients that Aaron sees. And now for the clients that you see, how typically do they come into your care?

Are they part of an inpatient or outpatient program and where do you start with them? Well, I used to work in a treatment facility that was residential. So when I would start seeing clients there, a lot of times they had come in from a detox program. Like they went to detox first before coming to our program, so they'd already been in treatment for a little bit. Not every substance requires a medical detox, so some people would have come in without going to detox first.

What happens in medical detox? So some drugs are dangerous to come off of. The most dangerous is alcohol. Really? Yeah. If you have a physical dependence on alcohol, then you should not try and wean yourself off of alcohol. That would be something that should be done with a doctor's supervision.

So quick questions. What are some signals that you may have an alcohol dependence problem? A few clinical signs might be maybe more than once gotten into situations while or after consuming alcohol that increased your chances of getting hurt, like swimming drunk, driving drunk, using machinery, walking in dangerous areas, having unsafe sex, continuing to drink alcohol even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious or having a memory blackout. Maybe if you felt like you've had to drink much more than you once did to get the same effect or worrying about where your next drink is coming from or planning social, family,

or work events around alcohol. Now some withdrawal symptoms from alcohol might be getting the old shakes, sweating, nausea, depression, insomnia, irritability, and the latest stats showed that 17 million adults in the US have a diagnosable alcohol use disorder. I just googled, quote, 17 million Americans just to see what that number was comparable to and I guess 17 million Americans a day take ibuprofen and 17 million Americans did the ALS bucket challenge in 2014. And also 17 million is the number of Americans who call in sick to work the day after the

Super Bowl, which might be more pertinent to the topic at hand. So beyond booze, what else does Erin help people with? Second most dangerous would be the family of medications, benzodiazepines like Xanax or clonopin. So I have a beef with the benzo family of medications because they're prescribed, right? And there's so much focus on opiate prescription medications like painkillers that I feel like benzos go under the radar a lot of the time and really they can be very dangerous as well. And as miserable an experience as detoxing from opiates can be, it's actually not dangerous.

Oh, okay. So it might be more painful. You will be miserable, you know, and like the joke is that you might want to die, but coming off of heroin is probably not going to kill you. Oh, I didn't know that. So once they're maybe through a medical detox or if they skip that set, then they might come into your care. Yes.

So medical detox, depending on the person's case, it usually lasts, say, five to seven days, and I could get on my soapbox about what insurance will and will not pay for. That's a big part of the problem. And so where do you start with behavioral modifications? Is there an aspect of 12-step program in your treatment? How do you feel about those programs? Do you start with heavy journaling, reflection, little baby steps? So really you want to start working with the person wherever they're at, you know?

So I try and be really careful not to call something an addiction until my client has used those words, you know, so some people might be comfortable talking about like, okay, I drink too much, you know, but they don't want to use the A word, you know, we're not going to call them an alcoholic. And that's fine by me. Doesn't make that much of a difference to me. And I am a supporter of the 12-step programs. I think they can be really helpful for a lot of people.

They're not right for everyone. But of course, with my background, I'm not a fan of doing the 12 steps instead of therapy. I think doing 12 steps in addition to therapy can be really helpful. There are so many AA meetings. You can find one almost any time you need one, and that's not true for therapy either. The benefits of AA are there are tons. But obviously, I'm partial to the therapy part. And so do you start them maybe with looking at the history that maybe got them there to

try to figure out what the reward of the behavior or the chemical was? Do you try to really figure out what brought them back time and again, even despite maybe the consequences? I do ask because I think it's important to get to know the person's individual history. I think most people put pressure on themselves in treatment to figure out why am I doing this, what's the underlying reason, and that's not necessarily the key to getting better. The treatment doesn't necessarily change depending on what the answer is. And for most people who end up using a lot of drugs or alcohol have another underlying

mental health thing, whether it's anxiety or depression or bipolar or trauma or whatever else, even if that didn't come first, right? Like a lot of people think if I'm depressed, I'll start using drugs or drinking to manage my depression. That's not true for everybody. Some people start drinking or using drugs first and end up with depression as a result. So getting started in recovery might mean first addressing some struggles with medications, like anti-craving prescription or anti-depressants for some mental health disorders that might

be underlying, also rats. Usually it's a combination, right, of managing mental health, increasing things like coping skills, right, and support around them. There was a study done on rats that was talked about at a conference I went to that always stood out to me. They put a rat in a big cage and they had rat park at one end of the cage, right, with all the rats, little rat friends, right? Oh, rats, rats, rats, rats.

And at the other end of the cage, it had drugs and I think they were using cocaine, right? So the rat, they got the rat addicted to cocaine and then dropped it in this cage where rat park was at one end and cocaine was at the other end, right? And the rat picked rat park. Oh, that's wonderful. That tells me the power of a community, right? And so many people who end up addicted to something, they really lost their community. And when they come into treatment, one of the first things that is talked about, and this

is true of AA, end of treatment, you know, changing people, places and things, right? There's so much that's associated with drug and alcohol use in their life. By that point, you know, you look at getting rid of all of that. And can you imagine having to get rid of everyone that you care about having a rat park to turn to? That's, yeah, we all need a rat park. That's the sweetest story about rats I've heard today. It's the only story I've heard about rats today, but it's also the sweetest.

So the researcher behind rat park, this experiment from the late 1970s was Bruce K. Alexander, a Canadian, and his website has delightful photos of sawdust vetted enclosures with trees painted on the walls. There's some empty tin cans to hide in, some exercise wheels. And he writes, quote, we ran several experiments comparing the drug consumption of rats in rat park with rats in solitary confinement. In virtually every experiment, the rats in solitary confinement consumed more drug solution by every measure we could divide and not just a little more, a lot more.

End quote. Now, the rat park experiment has been redone and not all of the data can be replicated. I guess the use of opiates declined in both the solitary and the park rats. So they weren't sure if it was due to just a different strain of rats, but another study showed that environmental enrichment, aka a sweet ass rat pad in which to kick it reduced cocaine seeking behavior in mice and that a nice environment can eliminate like established addiction related behaviors. So also, as I sat here writing this alone in my apartment, I thought,

maybe I should be in a coffee shop instead with other little rats. That sounds fun. Now, Aaron also says that a lot of times with a substance abuse disorder, a person has lost friends or given up hobbies. So one of the reasons she likes programs like AA is that there's a healthier community aspect that may have been lacking during addiction. So any of this is sounding familiar. What does one do?

Where does one start? What do you suggest for people who maybe don't know if they have a problem or if they don't know if someone in their life has a problem and they're kind of trying to evaluate if a line has been crossed into something unhealthy? Well, I think it's fair that if you're wondering if you yourself have a problem with something, it's probably worth talking to someone about. Yeah. Right.

Talk it out with somebody else. Um, and again, assuming that addiction happens on a spectrum, you know, if you're looking to make a change while before things have gone very bad, right? That it would be easier to make a change earlier on. So if you're questioning, hmm, maybe I should do this differently. Well, maybe you should, you know, do it now. Don't wait until, you know, you're checking off the, well, I don't have a job, but I'm homeless under a bridge.

Maybe I should do something now. It can be a lot tougher when you're trying to evaluate somebody else in your life because you don't really have control over somebody else's addiction or treatment or whether or not they're motivated to make a difference. How would you suggest people tackle addictions that they can't necessarily just go cold turkey on? Like if someone has an overeating addiction or a work addiction or something that it still has to be part of their life, right?

A lot of things that people get addicted to, right? You can't just give up cold turkey. Like drugs or alcohol, you don't need them to live, right? But you're probably going to have to have a job, but you're going to need to eat food, uh, sex is seen as a normal adult behavior. So it's likely you're not going to give that up totally either. Um, but it's important to look at what your problem behaviors are around things like work or sex or food or exercise or video games or whatever.

Look at what limitations you can try and put in place for you. Is eating chicken addictive? It's not usually like chicken and vegetables that are addictive for people, right? It's bread and sugar, right? So I overeat when I'm, uh, binging on sugar or bread. So maybe I need to focus on adding in more things like chicken or vegetables or natural fruits, natural sugars, um, or around work.

I need to be careful about my schedule and make sure I'm prioritizing time outside of work, right? Not staying up all night on my passion project, alley ward. What? Huh? When it comes to addictions, do you feel like you're seeing them change it all in the last like 10 years with the way that we work or, or the technology that we have at hand to kind of keep our brains going?

Yeah, it does seem like we're almost training ourselves to have shorter attention spans, right? With all of the stimulation we have on a day-to-day basis between our phones and our laptops and our tablets and, you know, um, our jobs are more demanding, our bosses expect to be able to reach us, whether or not it's work hours, I think that makes it harder to tell when a problem is developing, right? How much of it is the expectation of you and of your behavior and how much is really driven by a problem?

If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And most people don't start thinking about it as a problem until something goes wrong. Yeah. And sometimes that's a relationship and sometimes it's your health or you find yourself unhappy and you start looking into why that might be. Yeah.

How do you feel about intervention, the show or interventions in general? Or do you feel like it's, um, exploitative of the people who are going through something or do you feel like it's illuminating for folks who maybe don't recognize ever problem? How do you feel about how addiction is seen in pop culture? I have a lot of opinions on that. Yeah. Bring it on.

I, I like the show intervention. My favorite part is always the meeting with the family. Your addiction has made me feel miserable, abandoned, confused and depressed. Because the family has a lot to do with whether or not the person will succeed. Right. Not everything to do with it, but a lot of times the people that are closest to someone with a drug or alcohol problem, they keep the problem going whether or not they want to, right?

And no, no one wants to think that way of themselves that maybe they're doing something to contribute, but a lot of people do unintentionally. And for the person that's identified as having a drug or alcohol problem to change their family system needs to change too. Right. And sometimes that means cutting them off from money, right? Or support or, um, you know, not enabling things anymore. A lot of families protect their loved ones from the consequences of their

actions, bailing them out of jail when they get arrested, um, you know, paying for fancy rehab after fancy rehab, you know, not, not everyone learns that way when their loved ones are protecting them from the consequences. A lot of people do need consequences. What about the way that we see addicted characters in TV or movies? How do you feel about it? I don't like when drug use gets really glamorized in TVs and movies because I think it encourages the viewpoint that a lot of things are not a big deal, right?

And they're not a big deal for everybody, but they are a big deal for other people. Erin says that when kids or even grownups see folks in the media dabbling in drugs and alcohol, but being just a, okay, by the time they roll the credits, it gives a really false sense that everything's just going to be fine. Plus I also wish there were more good references to people who were in sustained recovery and doing well. I feel like the only time we see addiction in TV or movies is when people are at the worst part of their illness, right?

Which I think lends itself to the belief that people don't get better. Yeah. Because once they get better, you don't see the addiction anymore. Right. Yeah. Um, and really people do get better. They get into long-term recovery and they stay clean and sober and then they're not as visible.

Okay. So addiction as an illness. Let's get into it. And sometimes people ask why it matters. If we see, um, if we consider addiction as a disease and by it being classified as a disease, insurance companies will pay for treatment or else there'd be no treatment options for people. Wow.

Uh, and that means research dollars will go into it, right? And medication to help is out there. Uh, and there's less blame on the, the person who's sick. If we look at it as a disease of the person, right? That there's something wrong with the person. People don't get help, right? And they just walk around thinking that they're pieces of shit and most of them do already. And so one of the things I say when, when people say things like, um, well, you're

just letting them off the hook, right? You're just, you're giving them a free pass, right? That it's not their fault that they ended up addicted, but it is their responsibility, right? Just like any other disease would be your, your responsibility to manage, but not necessarily your fault. Right, right. Oh, that's so important.

It's important to treat people with compassion. And to also treat them medically in general. Right. And just the, the advances that are coming out are just incredible. You know, and there are things like methadone and suboxone and anti-craving medications and just the more we see it as a disease and the more we acknowledge that it needs to be treated like one, the more help there will be. So historically, alcohol dependence was described as a disease as early as the late

1700s. I don't even know if they had soap back then. AA was founded in the 1930s and then modern addiction medicine really emerged in the 1950s. Also from a terminology standpoint, dependence refers to the physical dependence on a substance and addiction is the combination of the physical dependence and the changes in behaviors associated with that. In general, substance use disorder is more scientific and sometimes preferred.

Also words like addict, abuser, user, even saying someone is now clean imply a bunch of value judgments and can really stigmatize the medical disease that is dependence and addiction. So just consider this a little a dictionary to help get it dictionary. And the other piece of it is, is that when you see it as a choice, the interventions are not treatment like we have now, it's prison and church. Right. We need to punish the addiction out of people or use church to make them

good people again. And while those things can be tools for sure, that shouldn't be in place of appropriate mental health and to health care. And on that note, do you ever have any guidance for anyone who might be squeamish about a recovering program because of the mention of God and how your powers, if that's ever a deterrent for some going? It's really about finding what works for you. So if you would like a spiritually based program, those exist.

If you would like a program that is not, those also exist. But I also encourage people to be as open minded as they can be. Because you never know. Yeah. I've heard people will kind of substitute the higher power instead of thinking of a higher power, thinking of a purpose. When they hear the word higher power, maybe guiding them, think of what is my purpose that's guiding me?

If it creeps them out to think of like a religious like puppeteer that's like, ah, I'm your, you know what I mean? Which as someone who was raised Catholic, who was very much not Catholic, like I'm a little like, I don't like the idea of some white, robed old guy looking over me, being like, I'm watching your every move. So I think that recovery programs made me a little bit squeamish, but someone once told me that, think of that as a purpose. Yeah, it really just needs to be something bigger than you, right?

That ties into a purpose too. You know, if you believe that you're here for a reason or that everything happens for a reason or what goes around, comes around or karma or whatever, that can kind of help you in your day to day decision making. The term self care is kind of bandied about. And now it means like sheet masks and Netflix. But what is true self care to make sure that you're not maybe going off the rails or slipping into a coping mechanism that isn't healthy?

Like what is, what is self care versus what is indulgence and what is necessary? You know, well, I think it's important to make sure your basics are covered, right? Because it's really hard to do anything extra if your basic needs aren't being met. So doing things like making sure you're eating, that you're eating pretty well, that you're eating enough, you know, everything within reason, balance, getting enough sleep, but not too much, getting in some activities, some socializing, making sure that all of your needs are being met again within reason is really important if you're not doing those things that anything else you're doing is

going to be a struggle. So if you look at things in terms of balance, that's really helpful. And just so like one of the things we would say in rehab or in group is, you know, we're not always reinventing the wheel, but somewhere along the way we forgot about those things, even things like making sure you're showering, you know, like it's really hard to feel good about yourself if you're not reasonably clean. Yeah, you know, like how do you get good self-esteem when you think maybe you're

a little funky, you know, or that your sheets haven't been washed in a month or whatever. So self-care can be things like washing your sheets, doing your laundry, taking an extra long bath and adding things to your daily routine that you enjoy. What about people who are struggling financially and like, do you ever see that there's a correlation between being just really broke and breaking out and coping with with a substance? Sure. And again, I don't know which came first in that scenario, but like one of the things I usually point out is how much do you think you're spending on alcohol?

Yeah, it's not cheap. If you develop any sort of habit, I have said to people, you know, you could afford therapy with the money you're spending on alcohol every month, you know, right? Oh my God, a bar tab is not cheap. No. Okay. Of course I looked it up and the average bar tab is between $70 to $90 in

metropolitan cities. If that seems steep, please feel free to visit LA and peruse our bespoke handcrafted cocktail menus. $16 plus tax and tip people. Oh, oh, you want a sparkling water? Great. That'll be $6. Erin says to look at a bar tab in terms of how many therapy session copays that

would be also is now a good time to mention that a DUI costs around $15,000. That's so much therapy instead. You could also rescue a poodle for that and have a lot of money to spare. Dollar, dollar bills, y'all. Is there a good resource for people who maybe don't have a lot of money or don't have insurance to seeking some therapy or some help? So when you look for a therapist online, a lot of therapists on their website will say whether or not they offer a sliding fee scale, which just means they're

willing to adjust their rates if you're not able to afford the full fee. So that's a good resource. A lot of counseling programs in universities will offer either free or low cost therapy to the community because their students need people to practice on. And they are heavily supervised. So you're not just getting one therapist. You're getting a couple. There's also a nonprofit called openpathcollective.org, which is a

database of therapists nationwide who say that they're dedicated to ending economic disparity in the mental health field, which is awesome. So it's 50 bucks to join once and then they offer low cost sliding scale fees. But if you drive like a Tesla and you're just looking to save a couple bucks on therapy, they do say in effect, can you not? So if you can use your health insurance or pay full price, you can check out their sister site, which is being seen to find a therapist. But openpathcollective.org for folks who can afford it.

It's such a nice site. You can put in your zip code and a bunch of therapists nearby pop up a little pictures and a statement from each of them and their specialties. So instead of just choosing someone randomly, you can like pick the nice lady with a cat on her lap or the man with the kind eyes. Again, that's openpathcollective.org. And if you have insurance and you just need to find a good therapist, you can try being seen. I don't want people to feel like they're the only one because it's so, so, so common.

Does it ever annoy you when people throw around the term addiction really nilly or is it just a common parlance? If someone is just can't stop eating these tortilla chips, are they really addicted or are you like, come on. No, it doesn't bother me too much. Okay. Sometimes I'll follow it up, follow it up with a joke that like only I think is funny, like time to get you into a tortilla chip recovery program.

And then I just realized like what a dork I am. Does it ever bother you when people say addicting versus addictive grammatically? Uh, no, that one doesn't. But it does bother me when people say they just have an addictive personality. Oh, right. Like, no, you don't. Is there such a thing? Not clinically, but there are people who are predisposed to addiction.

And it's true that once you're addicted to one thing, you're more likely to have a problem with addiction to other things. So if you are an alcoholic, can you just switch to another substance and be fine? Probably not. Same is true with the behavioral stuff we were talking about. A lot of people get into recovery for drugs or alcohol, but then find out that they become addicted to other behaviors like sex or video games or whatever. Workahol.

Workahol, which is a great substance. What is it? And when, when you kind of trade in one for the other, what's beneath that is whatever maybe underlying anxiety or depression or coping mechanism that isn't being satisfied is it's really whatever you're ignoring is getting filled with the addiction. Well, it's also that reward circuitry of the brain, right? Because if a little bit makes me feel good, then I want a lot. Right.

And some of our brains are just kind of built that way. So studies, including some with twins, have shown that heritability for substance use disorder is about 50%. And in adolescence, the social pressure and the peer group has a greater effect than the genetic predisposition that peer pressure factor kind of like butts and memories declines with age. Now, Aaron says that substance of choice tends to run in families and that may be due to the heritability of underlying mental disorders that go undiagnosed and untreated.

And then they're left to self-medication. So think undiagnosed ADHD and family members who choose stimulants or maybe some heritable anxiety and then the inclination to use downers. So contributing factors might be peer groups, genetics, early childhood trauma and neglect, as I mentioned earlier, can also play a role. And one study showed that in rhesus monkeys, if they were deprived of soothing contact as babies, they had higher stress responses, less behavioral control, and turned out an increased appetite for alcohol.

This is not just limited to little lab monkeys, of course. Aaron told me that on Sunday mornings, she volunteers at a local hospital cuddling human babies. This is indeed a thing. So in the neonatal intensive care unit, the parents can't always be there to soothe and cradle their little teeny tiny ones. So volunteers are on board to just come and hold the bibis and rock them to sleep and just be a big, warm thing, hugging them.

So if you think you just found your new volunteer cause or maybe you think I'm lying, just Google baby cuddlers and your local hospital. They may need you desperately or there may be a waitlist to volunteer. Depends on the city. Now, some of the kiddos may have neonatal abstinence syndrome. This is NAS, which is opioid withdrawal that is inherited from their mothers. So in this one article, I read there was an army veteran named Doug and he explained that you can tell when kids cry because they're mad or they're hungry.

But babies with NAS, it's just a very sad cry. He said, it's just sad because they don't understand what's happening and they don't understand why things hurt. They just don't understand. And doctors and nurses report that the more cuddling these babies get, the less medication they tend to require in the NICU. So if you would like to help prevent some future substance use disorders, it might start by rocking a teeny tiny little human who needs you.

Also, those little teeny toes. Volunteering can be so wonderfully selfish. Do you have any patients that have had a recovery that's really made you feel very inspired or made you ugly cry at work or anything? Oh my God, yes. I ugly cry. Really? Well, I try not to ugly cry at work.

Yeah. No, I cry a lot of happy tears, you know, and that's one of the flim flam things I had written down because I knew that was going to come that people don't recover like it. Oh my gosh, people absolutely do recover and it is a deadly disease and it affects so many people, but people do also get better. And so I see them at a lot of times the worst point in their life and they'll come back later on just to like say hi and show me how well they're doing.

And they'll be like, look, this is how far I am in my recovery. And it just makes me cry, you know, that they were like, you know, potentially near death and miserable and they thought things couldn't get any better. And, um, and they'll have changed their whole life. Yeah. And, um, sometimes they'll come back and they'll like, have kids or be married. And they'll be like, I'm so happy and it just like makes me so happy. I mean, that's why I get into it, you know?

It's, it makes all the difference. And like this, it, this disease kills people, it progresses, you know, so to see someone come back from like death's breach, you know, it just, it's incredible. You're making me cry now. I think it's so wonderful. It's so amazing, you know, and to look back and see the progress somebody's made over a span of time, you know, they may not always realize like, and, and they'll be really hard on themselves, right?

Like I, I should have this, I should have that. I've been clean or sober for this amount of time and I should be further along. And, you know, but looking back, you can just like see how much progress and, you know, people who are so down, like they don't smile anymore, you know, and then their face lights up over something ridiculous. And you're like, Oh my God, you're like really laughing. It's just, it's like a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Uh, does that ever inspire you in your own life to do things or tackle things that you maybe otherwise would, would put off? Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, a lot of my clients inspire me. They are facing tough things and really all people are facing tough things. Nobody has it easy, right?

Um, and a lot of times like I can think, you know, well, so many people are tackling so many hard things, I can go do a thing. Yeah. Like, why not? Why not go do the thing? Right. I remember. You can clean out your pantry.

People quit heroin, like, you know, you can do a couch to 5k. There's someone out there who's like going to, you know, change their whole life. Okay. So before your Patreon questions, a few quick words about things I like from sponsors, who make this show possible and who make it possible for us to make a donation to a cause of the oligarchs choosing. And this week, Aaron wanted to support more research on the health aspects of substance use disorders.

So a donation is going to NIDA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse. They have a gift fund. Also, Aaron mentioned that a lot of folks struggling with addiction may have been victims of trauma. So at Herbie Hest, the donation is split between NIDA and the backlog, which helps to shine a light on the backlog of untested rape kits nationwide. Those donations made possible by a few sponsors. Okay, back to your questions.

John Tillman wants to know, why is addiction sometimes referred to as a disease or oftentimes maybe because it is? Nailed it. Because we don't, because that's the best example we can use to teach people about it, right? Um, because we're trying to get away from the, the choice model, right? That something is just wrong with the person as a human being when really nobody wants to become a drug addict or an alcoholic.

Nobody's like, hmm, gee, how would I like to spend my life? Right. And I think thinking about things like a, like a choice lends itself to that kind of mentality. Well, you should just choose to stop. But if it was that easy, then rehabs wouldn't exist. There would be no need because people would just stop when things started to get really shitty.

And they don't, right? So logically, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Um, but because we know it's a brain disease and there are, um, like MRI studies they've done with what happens in the brain when a person is shown cues for their drug of choice, right? And there's a flurry of activity in the brain. So we know the brain is affected. Okay.

So side note, in one study conducted by NIDA on laboratory rats who had become dependent on cocaine, they found that the neurons that are usually firing to inhibit behavior to say like, no, don't do that. They were like crickets, just oddly inactive. So researchers activated those quiet inhibiting parts and their interest in a cocaine went away. So some Italian researchers are now attempting to replicate that using something called transcranial magnetic stimulation, which in some small trials

has shown promising effects on folks who keep relapsing multiple times with cocaine addiction. So who knows, zips up your brain back awake and those neurons are like, huh, what knows candy? Ew. No. Marissa Brewer wants to know advice for people with addiction in their family. Uh, see your own therapist.

Mm hmm. Right. So a term that is used is loving detachment, right? You can't be too involved in another person's addiction because you don't really have control over it. So you can run yourself into the ground trying to save someone else who really has to be the one to do the work for themselves. So seeing a therapist talking to somebody about what's best for you instead

of the focus always being on how do we help this other person helps set healthy boundaries so that you can make choices that protect yourself, but also might create an opportunity for change for your loved one as well. And of course, changing yourself and taking better care of yourself and maybe establishing some healthy boundaries may bring a whole change to your whole family system for the better, Erin says. Mike Monakowski asked, are non-drug behaviors like sex or video games addictive the way drugs are?

I have treated a number of clients who have had behavioral addictions really take over their lives, like, and the example I use is a poop bucket, somebody who is so focused on their video games that they won't leave the video game to go to the toilet. Does that happen? It does happen. I wouldn't say commonly, but that's like the kind of example that I would think of, right?

If you find yourself pooping into a bucket so you don't have to put your video game controller down, like that might be a sign. If you're making decisions that hurt you or somebody else for any sort of behavior, you know, that's, that's worth taking a look at. And again, nobody's dream is to be pooping into a bucket. Sure, someone out there, but not under those conditions. That's, uh, that's something different. Yeah.

So ask yourself, is this behavior or addiction or habit causing problems in your life, maybe just get real, have a chitty-chatty with your mirror reflection. Now, a few different patrons also asked about skin picking disorders, aka excreation disorder or dermatillomania. Are they an addiction? I mean, almost anything could be seen on the addiction spectrum. That might also be under the anxieties spectrum, right? And there are some things that are helpful, like making sure you're taking

care of your skin, right? Like if you have dry chapped lips that might lend itself to more picking than not dry chapped lips. And the same is true about skin or hair pulling, um, but managing anxiety, looking at things like the way you cope with stress or anxiety, making sure you're taking care of yourself all around, even some of the basics, like making sure you're getting enough sleep. Um, but for things that will work for the individual person, it's usually

most helpful to talk to it there best. So I have a few dear friends who suffer from this. And though there are practical tips, like using vitamin E oil on your skin to help heal it and make it kind of harder to futz with and wearing gloves and cutting your fingernails super short, all awesome advice. My pals also seem to have good results when addressing the underlying anxiety, either through changing medications, finding one that works better or having a meditation program.

I've seen work really well with some of my friends. So just know you're not alone. You're just an anxious, cute little monkey and that's okay. Kayleigh Stied says, why are some people more prone to addiction than others? Is there any answer for that? There is a genetic component to addiction. I think a lot of our cultures, our individual backgrounds play a role in it. Like people who come from families where drinking a lot is normalized and

drinking goes with everything. And then same is true about certain drug use or opinions about going to the doctor, taking pills or whether or not seeking out mental health treatment is acceptable. There's a lot of things that play into it. So how does addiction vary among different populations? So tragically, indigenous populations in America have the highest rate of substance abuse and those who identify as a sexual minority have higher

percentage than any other group. And remember that traumas or lack of access to adequate mental health resources can often result in self-medicating. So the factors could be social or socioeconomic or genetic. Erin reminds us though that no group is spared because the factors leading to a substance use disorder are so varied. It's not that addiction strikes any one community, right? In any one group of people or any one type of person.

It affects everybody or it could affect anyone, right? And it tends to be that how it came about is what's different. You know, it might be that in lower income neighborhoods, a different substance is more common. And then in more affluent populations, there may be more designer drugs or pharmaceuticals. Joe Portafito wants to know, what do you think the most addictive substance on earth is?

I really think it depends on the person. Yeah. You know, like they call it a drug of choice for a reason, right? Like when I worked in a rehab, we didn't separate the clients by their drug of choice because they had more things in common than they had different regardless of what the drug of choice was. So somebody could be there for an addiction to marijuana versus heroin versus cocaine and everybody is in the same place, you know.

And Tina Raudio wants to know, how can we reduce the stigma surrounding addiction recovery? Signed a five-year sober recovering alcoholic. Well, congratulations to her. What was her name? Tina Raudio. Congratulations, Tina Raudio. On your five years.

That's amazing. I would love to see more people in recovery visible, right? I mentioned previously that the media tends to show people only in the throes of addiction, right? But that the TV show mom, I really like that show, right? And it's really funny and I think it's pretty relatable. And yes, certainly there are relapses and hard things about addiction covered in the show, but they're also in recovery, you know, pretty

successfully give or take, you know, and I would love to see more people in recovery be visible and not have it be like the focus of their story because it's not who they are as a person, but it is part of them. And I think only seeing people who are very ill and their addiction contributes to the thought that people don't get better, right? Stephanie Burd, he wants to know what is the industry doing to improve patient outcomes and reduce relapse rates? And Emily Nill had a similar question.

Is there a way to transition from total abstinence recovery to smart recovery without turning it into a relapse? So a little bit about relapses. What is what can we do to improve outcomes and reduce relapses? So step down care is one of the things that we're doing to improve outcomes, right? It's not necessarily that you need to be in a residential treatment center for months and months and months in order to get better. One of the focuses has been on yes, doing some sort of residential treatment

or detox just to get a solid base, right? But then continue continuing in treatment in a step down way, right? So going from residential to partial hospitalization where you go for several hours a day, five days a week, three days a week before starting to see a therapist weekly for an hour so that you're really supported through the whole process. And if something starts to go wrong, it gets caught pretty quickly, right? Because going from a, let's say, 30 day rehab back home without any middle steps is not a good plan.

So you need the step down. And what about relapses? Maybe if you've been recovered for a while, how do people recognize that they might be in danger of a relapse and how do you kind of write the car? Yeah. Taking care of yourself as a whole person is really important. Have you ever heard the term dry drunk? Yes, I have. What does it mean?

So a dry drunk is somebody who stops drinking but doesn't really change anything else, right? So they're not working on recovery. They're probably not working on themselves as a person, not looking to change any of the other behaviors except the drinking by itself, right? And that's not a good plan for long term, right? Not only are you looking at stopping either drinking or doing drugs or whatever the problem behavior was, but adding other things to your life, taking better care of yourself, developing stronger relationships, healthier across the board,

that decreases the likelihood of a relapse, right? So somebody who's not making any changes except, I'm just going to stop doing this one thing. That's not a good plan. So side note, some signs that a period of sobriety might be a little threatened. Maybe someone starts voicing destructive thoughts or ideas, forgets their usual healthy habits, stops bringing salad to work. Who knows?

Has mood swings? Maybe neglects some coping skills or isolates from friends or family. Now, if a relapse does occur, some doctors say it's maybe better to call these just slips so that once someone stumbles in sobriety, it's not a, well, screw the whole thing, then I relapsed. So a relapse by any other name would be a slip. You slipped, it sucked, it was not worth it. But get on back up, keep trucking kiddo.

CRISPR asked, do you feel that those who are incarcerated and suffer from addiction can receive proper treatment in a correctional setting or are most released back to society without receiving the treatment that they needed? Good question. So there are programs offered in prison. They're not usually offered to people who are in jail for a short term. So somebody who might go for a few weeks to a few months probably doesn't have much access to any sort of real treatment.

But for some people, the fact that they were arrested is a wake-up call and they may be forced to obtain some level of sobriety there, depending on what's available in the specific jail. But anybody who's incarcerated for a longer period of time might have access to a treatment program. Though I wouldn't say it's the ideal treatment program, it is something. And for people who want to make a change, they can take advantage of programs like that. And oftentimes there are things like AA offered in prisons as well. So somebody who wants to get better and wants to make a change there, they can.

But again, not ideal. Nathan Andrew Leifleit wants to know, are OCD and addiction functionally similar either mentally or physically? There's some debate in the field about that. Some people see addiction more as an OCD type of behavior, like an obsession and then a compulsive behavior. But not everyone. I can definitely see where there's overlap.

Okay, so quick aside. One study showed that on average, 10% of folks will have a substance use disorder. But for people who are already seeking treatment for OCD, that jumps up to one quarter. So suggesting that yes, the risk is higher if you have underlying OCD. Now, as someone who is very curious about workahol, this question was close to my heart and to my brain. Kim Edgar wants to know, I have heard something about addiction to stress being a thing.

Is this a thing? I wouldn't put it addiction to stress per se, but some people thrive on chaos, that it's thrilling. It's interesting. And that's true for a lot of people who are addicted to other things. I never know what's going to happen. Anything could happen. It's exciting.

And then they get into recovery. And I use this example about dating a whole lot. When you are used to those really exciting relationships that are hot and cold, and they move fast, we jump right in, we just met, but now we're living together. And then you meet someone who, there's date number one. And they call when they say they're going to call, and they take you to the movies. And they hold hands, and then they drop you off at 10 o'clock. That's not that exciting, even if it's maybe healthier than what you're used to,

and not abusive, and respectful. So there are people who are maybe addicted to the thrill or the excitement, and that's a type of stress. This next question was also asked by Mike Monikowski. Amber Woodpark and a few other people asked, cannabis, is it really not addictive or is there something else going on there? Is pot addictive? Yes.

It's in the DSM. You can be addicted to pot. Yep. And again, it's not a fair comparison to things like heroin, but there are withdrawal symptoms, people who become addicted to pot. If they try and stop, they usually have symptoms like trouble sleeping, more anxiety. One of the jokes is you may not know you're in withdrawal from pot, but everyone around you

does. Right? You might be irritable. You're a pain in the ass. The name is not Grumpy McGrumperson. So yes, it's addictive, and people might spend money they don't have on pot. They take risks with their jobs or with their kids that they may not or probably shouldn't.

This next one I was also wondered about by Ariel Levitt and Shannon Patterson. Crisper and Bonnie Joyce both asked that is sugar more addictive than cocaine that they've heard that? True or false? What do you think? I would say false. Yeah, I'll look it up. Looked it up, that paper is widely, loudly scoffed upon by most addiction experts.

So, flim flam. And of course, this is a question that probably so many people have. Radhavakarya asked, smoking, what's the deal? Why are cancer sticks so hard to quit? It's also a good question. The support to quit cigarettes is not the same as the support to quit other things. And somebody mentioned that there is a nicotine anonymous, but that's one of those things that isn't brought up very often.

I don't know that it's well attended or that there's many meetings. But if it was, maybe that would make a difference to people. And a lot of people, there's a big thing in the rehab community, right? Should your rehab allow smoking or not, right? Should you kick all of your addictions? Or does it mean you lose people who are willing to give up harder drugs, right? In air quotes, you lose them if you also force them to give up cigarettes, because a lot of them won't come to rehabs where they have to give up smoking too.

So, different opinions on that. Okay, so one opinion on e-cigarettes is that they've shown to help curb smoking, but typically more in the short term, according to a University of Toronto study. But some folks worry that the prevalence of vaping is just going to normalize smoking, which remains, by the way, the leading preventable cause of death. 480,000 Americans dying each year from smoking-related causes. So, what are some top tips to quit? Making a financial incentive was the most effective,

so save the money you'd spend on smokes for another indulgence, like a vacation or a purchase you've been buying. Or make a bet with someone, someone who's a jerk and won't let you off the hook. Other tips from quitsmokingcommunity.org are to drink water when cravings start. You can have something to distract yourself, breathe deeply, call a friend, go for a walk. You can sign up for my Patreon at the level you'd spend each month on cigarettes. And then every time you want to light up, just think of my face crying and saying, but I love you and I want you to live.

Also, cancer is so expensive. Just kidding, you can give the money to a charity if you want, but just please do picture me crying. Beatrice Remford wants to know, the opioid crisis, how can public institutions adjust their practices and facilities to provide trauma-informed service for those affected by addictions? So, those with a disorder and their friends and families. So, your take on what we can do to help support

people who might be dealing with an opioid addiction. Several pronged answers, you know, like in Florida, where I am, that has been a huge issue. And there's been crackdowns on the pill mills and the prescribers of obiates. And we also use the a centralized prescription monitoring system, which is not required for prescribing physicians to take part in, but a lot of them do. So, that's been really helpful to cut down on things like doctor shopping, just going from doctor to doctor to get more and more script.

So, things like that, but also recognizing that's one of the scenarios where an addiction is easily missed, right? It comes from the doctor. I do what the doctor tells me. I'm sick, I have pain, I need this, right? It's really easy to come up with a lot of excuses until things have progressed to a pretty dangerous place. Yeah. So, I think having an awareness, asking questions, and also learning about Narcan. I don't know if you're familiar with Narcan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the opioid overdose reversal medication, which the FDA just approved a generic that you can get over the counter, I think, without a prescription.

That's what over the counter means. And it's a nasal spray. So, it's really easy to administer, and it is amazing the way it works and saves lives. So, encouraging people who, the loved ones of people who are addicted to opiates, or even are just prescribed opiates, it's an easy thing to have on hand. It should be fairly inexpensive if the generic's approved. And you could save somebody's life that way. Just a couple squirts up the nose. In October 2018, the podcast Hidden Brain did a whole episode on Narcan entitled the Lazarus Drug, and it's a really, really chilling look at the opioid epidemic.

Okay, moving this train along. And then my last question before the two last questions. Nobody on this thread so far, 75 questions on Patreon. I don't know if anyone has asked about coffee addiction, but what's your take on it? Caffeine, yeah. Because you can walk into a coffee bean and tea leaf and be like, I will take seven shots of espresso in a cup. Goodbye, and thank you. And have an absolute panic attack later.

You been up all night? Of course I've been up all night. Not because of caffeine. It was insomnia. I couldn't stop thinking about coffee. I need an app. And it's fine. But why is it so acceptable? Do you drink coffee? What's the deal? I do drink coffee. Good question. It is definitely socially acceptable. And the best answer I can come up with is that it doesn't get you high the same way. We definitely develop a dependence and withdrawal

when we stop drinking it. But would you say that you're under the influence after a cup? How many cups would it take to really alter your mental state? Yeah. For me, as someone with a diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder, it doesn't take much for me to be like, I had a Yorba Mate addiction. Well, I used that loosely years ago. And it would throw me into panic attacks. And it didn't occur to me that they were related for a couple of years. And I would be like, why am I having a panic like absolute cannot handle my shit right now? And finally, I linked the two. So I don't know. Of course, drug of choice really depends on what you're... For me, I might have been

using caffeine in a way to get me to work more because of an underlying anxiety that I wasn't working out. So you know what I mean at all? I guess it all is like the trees... Everything kind of circles back together, right? Yeah. But if you were... If somebody with a generalized anxiety disorder and panic attacks were to go see a therapist, the therapist might ask, well, how much caffeine are you having? Are you willing to take a look at cutting down on that? Yeah. Because it does make anxiety worse. Yeah. Like, you know, we don't need to ramp you up anymore. Yeah, I know. PS, side note, someone did. One Norman P. Schmidt, PhD. He's a researcher

in Senkola, Florida, studying the effects of caffeine on anxiety. Okay, here are some facts. So the average consumption of caffeine in 1999, 120 milligrams per day, 2017, 190. That's a pretty big jump. Ha! However, that's nothing compared to 1946, when the average American drink almost double what we do now with a very jittery, sloshy 48 gallons of coffee a year. Did they even drink water? I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, but Norman P. Schmidt does. So one treatment he supervises in patients is getting them to work up to a cup of coffee spiked with no dose so they can just chase that dragon, just ride that sweaty train to panic fill and learn, oh, okay, this is just chemical. This is chemical anxiety. The world is not garbage.

I'm just having a panic attack. I mean, the world is garbage, but this is just a panic attack. Okay, I'm just teeing this up for a shitty question. But I wonder if they look at that and they see a rise in people's anxiety disorders and all because we just don't realize, you know, like, I'll have a triple macchiato with oat milk and also I'll see my doctor for Xanax. But it's interesting. Right, to calm down so I can go to sleep later. Yeah, yeah. I mean, someone get a PhD in that. Okay, so shittiest thing about your job. I can't even imagine talking to someone who treats patients with some of the most just gut-wrenching addictions. Like, what is the hardest part about your job? This is the part that's a bummer, right?

Yeah, yeah. That some of them do die. Yeah. You know, so I have had clients pass away. And sometimes it's as a direct result of their addiction. Sometimes it's not as a direct result. And that makes me cry too. Yeah. That's when I cry sad tears. But it is the nature of the beast. It's a deadly disease. And I have to take the treatment of it seriously because it does kill people, you know, and everyone's life matters. Do you ever have an inkling for who maybe won't make it? Yeah. I won't say that I'm right all the time. I mean, I would say there's lots of times I'm not right. But yeah, sometimes I just have a feeling. And you just never know, though. There are some

clients I've had that being arrested and going to prison saved their life, right? That they just could not or would not, I guess, outside of that kind of setting. And it's amazing to hear from someone a few years down the line like, Hey, I got sober in jail and I'm still doing it. But you have to assume that everybody's at risk and everybody's worth fighting for. I saw this t-shirt once that said, I became a counselor because your life is worth my time. And that just like really got me in my therapist's heart, you know? Yeah. She says, obviously, that's much worse than administering P tests, which she's done a lot of. So I've handled like a lot of urine. Did you ever get an inkling for if maybe some maybe it wasn't someone's own P? Definitely.

Yeah. It's like refrigerated. Yeah, sometimes it wasn't the right temperature. And sometimes the devices they had prepared would fall and become evident. Oh, no. Like a little thermos, some kind of hot P thermos. Yeah. Or like the whizinator. Are you familiar with the whizinator? Not familiar with that. Oh, no. Oh, boy, howdy. Oh, boy. Oh, wow. Did I just tumble down a rabbit hole of people strapping hollow dongs on themselves and using hand warmers tucked into belts and also desiccated internet urine? Boy, wowzers. Just so much work. I got tired just watching the tutorials. If you get caught using one, what do you do? I guess you just say, you whizzed me. Anyway. But there's like a lot of funny stories around drug testing like in detox, guys who would test positive

for pregnancy, things like that. So what is the best thing about Aaron's job? Helping people, of course, seeing people succeed. It's, I mean, so rewarding and so special. And it's something that's not public, right? Because of all the privacy laws around it. I, there's so many things that I get to see and be a part of that I keep to myself. And I'm thinking most of my clients probably keep to themselves as well. So it ends up being this like so special, very intimate thing that I get to be a part of. And it has really helped me be kind to people who are maybe not having a good day and maybe are not as kind. It's given me a lot of patience and a lot of appreciation for the difficulties that other people are going through that I might not know. You know,

what's that saying? Be kind for everyone you know is fighting a hard battle. I feel like that because there's a lot of people I've seen addicted or not, you know, they don't look like they're having problems from the outside. If you saw them in the grocery store, you'd never know. And then I know about these deep things they're battling and you just never know what somebody else is going through. Any resources or books that you would point to to people who might be struggling? One of my favorite books is called Healing the Addicted Brain by Harold Urschel with a U, U-R-S-C-H, I think, E-L. And so it goes through a lot about the addictive brain stuff and it's science-y but not so science-y that it would necessarily be too much for someone who's

not science-y like me. And there's a chapter in there for families as well that's really helpful. And I also like codependent no more because a lot of the people that end up in relationships with people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol end up, they say like being codependent is like being addicted to a person. So the loved one is addicted to drugs or alcohol and then the partner is addicted to them. The language of letting go and codependent no more are by Melanie Beatty. Wonderful books. If you're like, why am I always putting others' needs above my own or trying to clean up others' messes or doing too much or thinking I have to earn love, huh, hmm, huh. Good books, just saying. There's also the HBO did an addiction series a while ago

that Nora Volkow was a part of and they do short vignettes on different topics in addiction. Like they are filming in an emergency room and there's different related stuff that comes in and then there's brain scans. So there's a lot of good stuff out there. Oh, good. And then where can people find you? Um, I do have a website called Aaron can help www.arankanhelp.com. That's so sweet. Yes. And I also have a Facebook page for my business that I include all kinds of things that are related to mental health and addiction. I don't only treat addiction. I'm out there. Yay. Thanks for making me cry, dude. Yeah, thanks for making me cry. Happy tears though. I mean, there's so much good out there.

So for more on Aaron, see Aaron can help.com and to find publicly funded addiction treatment centers in your state, you can call 1-800-622-HELP. That's 1-800-622-HELP. You can also go to findtreatment.samhsa.gov. That's the site for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration. They have lists of 12 step groups, including Alenon, if someone you love is struggling with a substance use disorder. And if you need help with this, you're not alone. Addiction is treatable. There are people who want you to succeed, including a pop here. And if you're in recovery, good on you. Everyone, just give yourself a big hug. Also, if I worded anything in a way that needs updating, please know I was doing my best and I welcome any upgrades to my linguistic operating

system. So thank you for keeping me updated and giving me all your perspectives. I am Ali Ward with 1L on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at oligies on both two. More links will be up at aliward.com slash oligies slash addictionology. You can check the show notes in this podcast for links right there. That'll have links for resources, studies, Aaron's site, charities, everything. Thank you, Bonnie Dutch and Shannon Feltas for managing the merch and to Aaron Talbert and Hannah Lippo for admitting the oligies podcast Facebook group. Thank you to interns Harry Kim and Caleb Patton and to assistant editor and researcher helper this week, Jared Sleeper of Mind Jam Media. He also hosts the mental health podcast, My Good Bad Brain. I'm dragging him to

the Midwest on a road trip this week. So check the oligies Instagram for sublime updates from the road. In which state will we eat a corn dog? I'm not sure yet. Thank you to lead editor, Stephen Ray Morris, who also hosts the Percast and see Jurassic Right. And the theme song was written by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. Very good band. Now at the end of the episode, you know I tell you a secret. And this week's is that even though I work too much, I do love the work I get to do. But my goal going forward is to take one day a week off, one little day. If anyone has any thoughts on how to do it, you can email me at helloallyward at gmail.com. If I don't write you back, that just means maybe I took that extra few minutes to chill out.

But I love you all the same. Okay, be good to yourselves, little monkeys. Bye bye. It's coffee time. Let's listen to some jazz and rhyme and have a cup of coffee.