Ologies with Alie Ward - Aperiology (MACRO PHOTOGRAPHY) with Joseph Saunders

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

Lights! Cameras! Arachnids! And lizards and bees and beetles. Macro photography is like magic: curved glass gives an entirely new take on the world, from dust on a cricket’s brow to a curious mantid stare to the elegant symmetry of spider whiskers. Joseph Saunders is an Oklahoma-based wildlife photographer whose larger-than-life photos of bugs and reptiles will make you realize just how little we appreciate the creatures on our window sills and skittering up our porches. We talk shop about cameras, bug hunts, lenses, patience, Moth Week, BlackAFinSTEM, and also getting into nature with different mobility concerns. Alie is a shameless, rabid fan of Joseph and asked Patrons to help concoct an -ology to describe the art + science of his macro photography. Aperiology now exists to describe the tiny aperture used to keep these creatures in focus, and the huge world it opens up to us. Support Joseph’s photography at Patreon.com/jdmonroe Joseph’s website: https://paraherpetologica.com/ Follow Joseph at www.instagram.com/reelsonwheels Follow him at Twitter.com/jdmonroe210 or twitter.com/BlackAFinSTEM A donation went to the American Chronic Pain Association: www.theacpa.org/ Sponsor links: kiwico.com/ologies; For more links: alieward.com/ologies/aperiology Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes and uh...bikinis? Hi. Yes. Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologies Follow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWard Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh, hey, it's that older guy at the beach watching the sunset who claps when it's done. Halli Ward back with a very, very giddy episode of oligies. Up top, I want to let you know this guest has a website now, paraherpetologica.com. The link is in the show notes. So if you want to be looking at any of his photography while we talk, you can go to that or to his Instagram, which is in the show notes. Also you can buy his prints on his website. Thank you to Kyle Sleeper of Now Labs for putting that together.

And the guest also has a Patreon. It is linked in the show notes. You can directly support his work and see all kinds of unreleased photos and behind the scenes. So go to his website, follow him on Instagram, and support him at Patreon. Okay, on with the intro. Thank you to everyone who keeps oligies up among the science goliaths in the podcast charts by making sure you're subscribed and by rating, by of course reviewing the show.

I read all of the reviews, I pick a hot steamy fresh one each week to read. And this one was from Plex091 who says, oligies makes me feel like I'm in the best classroom discussion on a rainy day with a sub. High praise. I appreciate that. Also, hello to Majestic Worm and Why Do I Need a Nickname, who both drive delivery trucks and are tuning in. So let's keep these good vibes rolling with a periology.

And it just did not have a specific ology. I looked at every corner of the internet for one, it didn't exist. But this guest is someone you heard on the Black AF and STEM episode we did last month. And I love his work so much. I just wanted to know more about his wildlife macro photography process. He has so many fans who are ologies listeners. So I asked Patreon what ology this would even be. And Zoltan and Sarah both suggested nature picture taking ology.

Rob Hover offered wildlife portraitology. Emily's dad and Rachel DeGuff both said close-up ologist. And then patron Ellen Silva suggested a periology from the Latin aperio meaning to open or reveal. And Ellen wrote of this guest's work that these photos certainly reveal a world of detail. Also bonus, I was like, yes, aperio, an aperture of the camera, also opening different spaces both physically and culturally for more people to be included. So yes, a periology it is. Thank you, Ellen.

A word was coined just for this episode. Before before we've done that on ologies, I'm usually very strict that the ology exists elsewhere, but this one is just a very rare special occasion. And I'm thrilled that there is now a periology. So we're going to be chatting about the magnificent art and science, which you can see on his website. Again, paraherpetologica.com, linked in the show notes, side note, a macro photo is technically one in which the size of the subject on the film or the image sensor is life size or larger.

So his artwork is larger than life. His Instagram at Reels on Wheels is just a gallery of pensive praying mantises and dead on stairs from beetles. The cutest spiders with the most cartoony eyes and more. And as a lifelong bug lover, I was hooked on his work as soon as I saw it. And he now has 13,000 followers on Instagram. Most of them just from the last few weeks, it's climbing so fast, I wouldn't be surprised to see him break like 100,000 in the next few months.

So follow him on there. And also by chance, this episode coincides perfectly with Disability Pride Month as we celebrate the July 1990 passing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. So let's celebrate that with a glass of iced tea and listen to his process, his relationships with animals, why we should appreciate the slithery, the scaly, the buggy, the leggy creatures, lenses, cheap gear hacks, which spiders are the cutest. His macro photography mentors, the best place to photograph inverts and more. Also you may hear some beautiful chirping in the background and you have to listen to

the whole episode to find out what kind of bird it is. Just think of it as a lovely hello from nature. So get ready for your eyes and ears and world to open with the wisdom and the creativity of wildlife photographer and the world's first ever a periologist, J.D. Monroe Online, a.k.a. Joseph Saunders. I'm so excited to talk to you. I feel like you're my Ansel Adams, you're like my Annie Leibniz, like my favorite photographer. So this is kind of a big deal.

I'm gonna have to play it much cooler than this because I'm like seriously so, so stoked to talk to you. So how long have you been doing photography? Did you like the outdoors and nature first or did you like photography first? I've always been a herper at heart. I grew up in San Antonio, Texas. Also just a quick aside, I'm actually, I was originally born in California. I don't know if you're from California, but I realized I could see you're out that way.

I was born in Tinker Air Force Base in Fairfield. No way. I know exactly where that is. How long were you out in California before you moved to Texas? Not long enough to have any awesome memories. I think I moved from California when I was about three, so I really don't remember any of it. My upbringing really resides mostly in San Antonio and a little bit in Phoenix, Arizona.

But so back to San Antonio, someone in San Antonio, Chelsea, one of the other members of Black If and Stim, she studies anoles and that was my spark animal, was the green anole. The green anole got me completely obsessed with reptiles, amphibians and all that stuff. They're everywhere in San Antonio, green anoles and Mediterranean geckos. I go back to my brothers who still lives there and I cannot wait to get there because I just start searching around his house looking for anoles so I can sow my nieces and nephews. Of course, growing up in the desert in Arizona in San Antonio, that must have been the best kind of animal to seeds with lizards.

The crazy thing is I slap myself every time it comes to mind, but I also have to remind myself of the reasons to be grateful. I was not really involved in herpetology or herpetical culture in any kind of way when I lived in Arizona. I went to high school in Arizona. My mom got stationed at Luke Air Force Base. I'm so grateful for it because the friends that I had there, they were the generation that followed a lot of the conflict between the war on drugs and the history surrounding

that in Oakland, California. And a lot of them left Oakland seeking a better life. They taught me so much about black life that I had no idea because one, I was raised by white parents. My biological mother is white and also in the military. So I mean, we're completely cut off from the realities. We think our entire bubble is just Air Force. That was my coming to reality moment was my friendship with them.

I am so grateful to them to this day because they opened me up to learn so much more about blackness, about the justice issues that we are facing now. And there's no way that I could have been the person that I am now without them. So Joseph moved to Phoenix at 15, and it was there that this community, many people who were driven out from Oakland and the Bay Area because of the racial underpinnings of this, so-called war on drugs. And these people opened his eyes to his own culture. And he also recalled a close friend who, when they were just teens, was brutally assaulted

by two police officers after just walking into a convenience store in a white neighborhood. And Joseph says that that was a moment when he really had to face the reality of the disparities between how black people and white people see the issue of racism through their own lenses. And his white family didn't always understand, but he made friends who did. The great thing is, while the military, or growing up, a military brat, it did grant me my best friend, who I very, very firmly say is my brother, because we were in kindergarten together, and we've been together ever since.

He was the other black person that I knew that actually liked animals and the weird ones as much as I did. We were in kindergarten together, and we would have library days, where we would go from our classroom over to the library, and he and I would basically barter over which one of us got to read the snake book, the spider book, the shark book. And it was, OK, you get this one this week, and you take this one this week. And then we would switch. And we read the same ones over and over again.

I can still picture some of the photos, like one of them. I think the spider book, it had a trapper or spider on the cover of it. I am so grateful for that, because then they're my family, and we go back to San Antonio every year and spend a week together with my three nieces and my nephew, and that's my family. That is my very, very black family. And also now I have Black AF in STEM, and that is, I have my family, and now I also have this amazing black naturalist community. So as much as my relationship with my relatives and my mom's side is hurtful as that really

truly was, I have the support. I have the foundation that I need to be able to go forth and continue. So you started liking animals maybe before photography? Oh, yes. So I had to I had to hop on my own Facebook page real quick, because I didn't actually start taking photos with any sort of seriousness until 2014. Really? Yeah.

Really, I wouldn't. I would have thought that it was a lot earlier because you're really very good at it. What was it that started? Did you start taking iPhone pics or did you did you start by getting a camera and just taking it out, you know, whenever you go looking for herbs? So I'm almost ashamed of this just because of my circle of influence now. What got me into this is that I found out about

people who breed various like high end morphs of ball pythons when I was in college. And I that's what I do now. That's that's my own business. I'm regularly employed. I have my own employer, but my own small businesses, I read ball pythons. Oh, my God. So so what I what I found out was I was like, OK, so how do I actually take good photos of my animals to make sure that, you know, I'm, you know, doing good advertising and

this kind of stuff? And someone's like, you know, you need to get a decent camera. And then somebody said one time that, you know, you need to get a decent macro lens because baby snakes are small, you know, you got to make sure that, you know, you get the right equipment. I was like, all right, cool. So I got an old Canon T5i back in 2013, I think. And I think it's set on the shelf for a good long while because I didn't know what to do with it.

Um, and after someone mentioned the macro lens, I got the Canon 100 millimeter and I went and I was running around the park and playing with it. And I realized that I could fit a cricket's head in the entire frame. How many cricket and my mind just exploded. And I've just been going completely nuts ever since I was just like, this is too much fun. Bugs are everywhere. This is so it's not that it's easy, but it's accessible.

Like you don't have to hike miles to find some sort of a rare species. It's what can you find in your own yard and how can you present it in such a way to change someone's mind and opinion about something that most people just like stomp on without, you know, a second thought. Yeah. I mean, that ties back into my earlier impression as a, as a herper is, you know, a big part of it was the recognition that. That this being before, I guess, being more becoming more confident

and understanding of my blackness, I have been disabled since birth. I have spina bifida, so I've used a chair all my life. So I've always felt, you know, some, I've always felt empathy and some connection when it came to reptiles for a sense of not fitting in, for a sense of kind of persecution, not being enough. So I really attached on to reptiles kind of for that reason. Like snakes, especially, because I would grow up as a kid and watching like documentaries and, you know, the various facts and David Attenborough

talking about reptiles and this and that. And this is a horned lizard. And very beautiful too. What always stood out to me most was a few, was a few things. One, how tough scales are, you know, they basically are just this form of armor that allows them to be able to withstand bites from their prey and or other predators. And, you know, so on and so forth. It gives them this, this layer of protection.

Another thing is being that, you know, they can go weeks, maybe months without any water months, you know, if they have an adequate source of food and since they get about 70% of their water from their food that they actually eat and they survive it. You know, you can put them in like, like sidewinders in Arizona or horned vipers stick them out in the middle of the desert and they're fine. Pretty good. Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good. And I looked upon them as an example of,

as an example of resiliency, you know, an example of how to be tough, of how to survive, of how to not just survive, just based off of what other people perceive as your limitations, but also how to survive when everybody else is against you. If you're feeling overlooked or underestimated. Right. Yeah. How beautiful is that? The answer is very beautiful. So, you know, that connection for me and reptiles is I think that's why it's been the one

thing that I've always, that has just never gone away. Like, you know, I used to love sports, I still love sports, but I mean, I haven't touched a basketball since 2012. Spent my time playing ball when I was in my 20s, but I just keep coming back to, to reptiles. And now the same kind of relationship and perspective still applies when it comes to invertebrates because nobody gives a damn about them, you know, they get into the house and people, it's some big thing for people to, they think that it's some great thing

that they don't kill insects, that they would catch them and release them. I was like, why, that should be the norm. Yes. There's so few that can actually hurt you. There's so many shower spiders that are just, they just want to hang out in the corner. Right. They just let them out. But the, what you do, the way that you photograph these creatures, number one, your

field of focus is so shallow that what is so crisp, it draws you in. It's just magnetic because what's so crisp, your eyes just like feast on. And then the backgrounds are so obscured, they're just dreamy and it's so easy to focus on the subject because that really super shallow depth of field. And what is that? Like, what kind of gear do you have to bring? Do you have a tiny, tiny little studio that's like a seamless that you put them on? Or are they like, how, how are you doing?

How are you capturing these images? So, I mean, a lot of what I do is, is, is actually in the field. You know, sometimes if I find something that's around the house, I'll take it inside. So I'll catch it, wait till it settles down a little bit. It gets a little bit desensitized to me and then I'll proceed with photographing it. Otherwise, it is, it's in the field. Has it taught you a lot about the ecology because you tend to see the same animals in certain spots?

Yes. You know, and that's, it's funny that you mentioned that because they, with, within Black AF and STEM, I'm like the undisciplined, like low-credential variety out of all of them. They're all like working on PhDs and this and that. I'm like, I got a bachelor's degree in sociology. At this point, I was like, that doesn't mean you don't know your shit. And he was like, yeah, no, no, no, I know, I'm kidding.

But he was like, polite about it. It's my hobby. And what I do, it does, it does teach me a lot about the ecology. Like I can name just like about every species of jumping spider in the state of Oklahoma, definitely all the herbs. I can identify all of the frogs and toads in Oklahoma by ear. And, you know, this is just things that you pick up as a habit because you do this all the time.

If you don't learn this, doing what you do is you're trying not to. What kind of apps or field guides do you tend to rely on more? Well, I have a few field guides now. Most of them are herbs. I have, I have a couple of bird guides now. I think I have the Sibley bird guide. And I have a, like a general insect guide as well. But I honestly, I use bugguide.net a lot.

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's a really good source when you're actually looking, when you have photos and you're trying to identify, you know, whatever the invertebrate that you found is, like the biomass and biodiversity of Arthur Paws is just so insane that you have to be patient with yourself. Yeah, you can't expect, you know, this level of expertise in this. You are really diving into a specific family or genus of, uh, of a group of animals and, um, you must identify stuff often.

Yeah. And that's perfectly fine because in, in so people will correct you. And that's, that, that is part of the culture is that you accept correction. There's nobody that, you know, gets really too upset about it. And it's just like, no, it's that. And it's like, oh, okay, thanks. Joseph has met a ton of naturalist friends online, but he does most of his shooting in Oklahoma city where he lives now.

He told me that while Oklahoma prides itself on being the reddest of the red states, one great thing about Oklahoma is that a lot of people don't realize that it has per capita the most historical black towns than any other state. And you may of course be familiar with the history of Tulsa's Greenwood district, which was also known as Black Wall Street. And that was the site of the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. And he told me that Oklahoma's diverse population is partly the result of the trail of tears that forced indigenous people off their lands and

other traumatic relocation practices from the old South. But he went to college there and says at the time he was eating and sleeping and breathing basketball. But in all that time, maybe only had three black teammates. And I asked why he thinks that was. And I mean, the black people are severely underrepresented in military basketball, at least they were at the time that I was in college. It's now been a while.

Anytime that you look at something, if there is a lack of representation, it's pretty safe bet to at least start to consider that there's some discrimination involved there. And it's a matter of kind of diving down into root cause analysis. So like with my case, like with spina bifida, I know black children are much more likely to have spina bifida. And this normally is a result of the medical neglect of black mothers. Spina bifida is something that occurs due to a deficiency in

folic acid that happens in utero. Very avoidable. And it's not avoided when mothers expecting mothers aren't taking care of, which is why that it happens more often in black children, because black women don't have as good an access to adequate medical care. Right. Okay. Side note, that is tragically a gross understatement.

The Centers for Disease Control released a report in September of 2019, and it opened with this bold and very heartbreaking statement, quote, black American Indian and Alaska native women are two to three times more likely to die from pregnancy related causes than white women. And this disparity increases with age. I'm sorry that their language is not more inclusive of non-binary and trans men who can have babies. But it continues most pregnancy related deaths are preventable.

Racial and ethnic disparities in pregnancy related deaths have persisted over time, it says. And also, I mean, when you go to just the histories of redlining and the ghettoization of America, also playing into medical care and the proper medical care, also of these disabled children, what then become the opportunities and the accessibility of these children to find adaptive sports opportunities. My mom was in the military. So, I mean, I didn't have to deal with a lot of those struggles.

I mean, obviously something happened with the care that my mom received, even from the military standpoint, as far as medical care is concerned, but growing up ultimately middle class, she was able to find resources and outlets for me that centered disability. Now is the next part where, well, I mean, I had to learn to center blackness for myself. It's not something that I could have ever learned from her. And so now it's a matter of dealing with, you know, both of those things

because I am black and I'm a paraplegic all the time. I can't be one or the other before the other. I am both at all times. What was it like for Joseph to get to know the folks from black AF and STEM, who've been personally making my timelines one million percent better since they launched Black Burgers Week in late May? How did you become introduced to them? What was that like for you?

It is this whole thing. You know, I'm actually one of the newer members of Black AF and STEM. I think I came in around February. It was Alex Trautman that brought me in. So he had a post on Facebook about not looking like a scientist because he's black and he kind of, you know, dove into, you know, this long piece about now I'm still a scientist, you know, black this ain't got nothing to do with it. I'm a black scientist.

And that went viral. I wasn't friends with him, but I saw that and I was like, hey, we should be friends. And then he hit me back. He's like, did you know about, you know, this group me? And I was like, I had no idea what's going on. Yeah, yeah. And so he let me in and then I realized, you know, there were some familiar faces in there, like Carl Guyton, the Kroc guy.

I think I've been friends with Carl actually longer than any of them. Um, and Karina Newsome and, you know, other people that I was already familiar with, like, you know, I've just been hanging out in here and I just now getting the invitation was going on. That must have felt like walking into the best party ever. Yes, absolutely. And then, you know, and the momentum has just obviously has just increased like exponentially since that point that I came in.

And I mean, initially it was just this lively place where we could just kind of set down all of the armor that we kind of carry with us into the field and the other predominantly white spaces and be like, everybody here is black and everybody here loves animals. Yeah, this is great. This is this is the place that I've been trying to get to all my life. I did an episode about code switching with Dr. Nicole Holliday, who's a linguist.

And I imagine the code switching dealing in the scientific world must be exhausting. I feel like already so many people feel like in science, they can't bring their true selves, but it must be such a relief to fully be in a group of people who have such similar experiences and you can feel like you can be, you know, completely authentic with. Yes, definitely. I mean, code switching is a part of it. I think my favorite thing about it that I've thought about is, is honestly

his hair. So, you know, there's very many different types of hair. And so we have, you know, various Zoom meetings and we're having like Zoom meetings just for like, you know, social evenings before Black Birders week, we would have like game nights. And so like when I have really long hair, it's like down to about the middle of my back when I go to work at my regular day job. I almost always have my hair pulled back in a ponytail because I figured

out very quickly, if I don't do that, white people end up making really stupid comments and it's just like, you know what, I just have my hair down. Why are you even talking to me for having my hair down? That doesn't happen in Black spaces. Nobody cares that your hair is down. Everybody has some sort of type of hair that is close to what yours is. Sometimes it's messy. Sometimes it's like covered in a head wrap.

And in those group chats, in those moments, in those Zoom meetings, it is normal and there's never a comment made. Unless it's, unless we get into a topic about talking about hair care or hair care in the field, it's, you're just like everybody else. Yeah. You don't have to worry about ignorance. It's very freeing and it makes it very comfortable and makes it feel very safe. That's one thing that really struck me about the Black AF live streams that was

really beautiful to see because so often people who are Black and STEM are tokenized or are on a panel where it feels like they have to represent everyone who has ever been in science and Black at the same time that that kind of weight is put on them. And it was really wonderful to watch the live streams, to see that kind of burden be lifted and to see people just be able to be completely themselves and much more carefree in a space where they knew that they were safe. It was really such a joy to be witness to, you know?

You know, and I mean, it's a great thing that you are even able to acknowledge that because a lot of people don't even realize how guarded and how unsafe we feel in most spaces because we are so used to kind of putting on faces and portraying ourselves in such a way that doesn't upset the white gaze and other things. And so to acknowledge, to be able to see that, you know, when we're just being us and we're not trying to put on a face for anybody, it's a whole different thing. And I loved that your approach to science was so artistic and so like zeroed

in on, on kind of the beauty of things that have been overlooked and other people might approach their science differently. In the Black AF and STEM episode, Joseph submitted a clip addressing BBC and National Geographic directly saying, quote, I have yet to meet more than maybe two or three other people with an injury like mine who are also naturalists. This is a really good opportunity for BBC, Nat Geo. If you guys are listening, you y'all don't have any representation for disabled

people amongst your photographers. Direct to the point and admirable. I was like, I like this guy. How represented do you feel in wildlife photography? Because I feel like most working wildlife photographers are ruddy white dudes in car hearts. Like, what do you mean? Like, what does that feel like?

And what should it be? You know, it's, it's kind of, that's multi-layered. So there's on one hand, you know, like the comment that I made when I sent in my clip, I mean, that stands there really is no representation. I don't think honestly, in photography period, I can't think of anybody that I know that has a physical disability that is well known in photography. In wildlife photography, I mean, it's even harder. And I mean, some of that is, there's a rationale to some of it because there

are some places, some locations that it is simply highly unlikely, if not impossible to get any kind of a wheelchair to go. And I accept that. What I have trouble accepting is that nobody is actually willing to put forth any sort of mental energy to create any sort of solutions or diversity around that. Like, like just looking at what, using myself as an example, obviously, somebody with mobility limitations can get pretty good at macro photography

because insects are not that hard to come by. At least for now, we can talk about the declining rate of the biomass of arthropods, which is terrifying. Okay. Quick aside, I don't want to alarm you, but I looked into it in some scientists are calling this the insect apocalypse. It's very bad. So according to a recent story in Science Daily, only 10 to 20% of insects and other invertebrate species have even been described and named.

And some populations of flying insects, like those in parts of Germany, have declined 73% in the last three decades. Is it because you keep squishing them with a Kleenex and putting them in the toilet? Well, yes and no. There's a lot of factors, chiefly habitat loss, pollution, invasive species, and climate change all contribute. You are sad right now, and I understand because I am too. I love a bug. Are you kidding? So what can we do, Dad Ward?

Can we kiss a bug on its tiny face? It's tempting, but it's not helpful. So the same Science Daily article had a tidy list of what you can do, which I will now read off with my mouth. One, avoid mowing your garden frequently. Just let nature grow and feed insects. You're welcome. Two, plant native plants.

Three, avoid pesticides. Four, leave old trees, stumps and dead leaves alone. That's where bugs live. Five, build an insect hotel. Why don't you? Six, reduce your carbon footprint in general. Seven, support and volunteer in conservation organizations. Eight, don't release non-native species.

So if you have a bug, don't let it grow. Don't let it grow in non-native species. So if your grandpa does not appreciate the emotional support of Gwana, you've got him, do not let him release it on the patio. Nobody wants that, except the Gwana and your grandpa. And lastly, the article said, and I quote, be more aware of tiny creatures, always look on the small side of life. So appreciate the bugs you see.

They are precious and we need them and also just superficially, they're very beautiful. Joseph would love to be working with them on accessibility. But, but you know, it's stuff like that, that is, I guess, is a little more frustrating. And also when you look at the institutional level, like I've looked at possible ways to get out of my current line of work and into something that is more conservation based and organizations like US Fish and Wildlife or the various state departments, they all require you to have a minimum of

whatever the education requirements is in natural sciences. My thoughts surrounding that is some of these institutions are they do have people that are on programs or or push programs about accessibility or diversity. And I'm like, OK, but where are the people that actually have to use these things? Because most of the people that I see on their accessibility programs are not people with accessibility limitations. Oh, that's rich. That's really rich.

Why is it necessary to make sure that they have a master's or master's in one of the natural sciences? They're working on your accessibility program. They don't need to know all of the other stuff and you can teach them about all the other all this other stuff anyway, because that's what your entire organization is about. Yeah, there's more that you can learn from them than anything. So exactly. Open up the door and actually improve the overall infrastructure of your organization. 100%. So if there are accessibility

positions out there, staff them with folks who know the most about accessibility issues rather than have these stringent natural science degree requirements. So Joseph also told me about being part of several communities at once, something that other folks may not even consider. I had a talk with Dr. Newberry at Bucknell University a while ago. We're talking about. Essentially, black people in natural sciences and stuff like that.

And the biggest thing that I said to him. The important thing that I said to him is when it comes to this momentum that Black AF and STEM and other organizations are creating now. We is to create a sense of camaraderie. I don't want to. Have to leave my black community. To have my needs met as a disabled person. I want my black community to be able to meet those needs.

Because if I have to leave that black community and I have to go to this other one, that means that I have to start dealing with the anti-blackness that exists within those communities and I don't want that either. Yeah, it's important to me that as we go forward, that we are creating spaces and opportunities for accessibility and stuff that is not not something where we're targeting disability and where that's the overall emphasis, but we are simply creating a doorway for them to come into the larger community and to go on these tracks with the rest of us.

Is there anything equipment wise that can that could be made available to people that would help with that? Anything that exists, anything that you wish exists? Wish exists? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's stuff that does exist. So I've seen various models. The one that I get the most is people listen to me, this chair that they've seen that is mostly motorized.

And it's large enough that basically you can push your manual chair into it and it basically locks into it and it has like these tank tracks. P.S. I look this up and yes, it's like a small tank. I mean, on one hand, there's some rugged fun to be had, but on the other. And I'm like, what would I do with that in the field other than just destroy a whole bunch of habitat? You asked me to like basically climb into a tank and just kill all of the stuff that I'm actually trying to see in photograph.

Yeah, this giant piece of equipment is useless to me. And that seems to be the kind of the go to is like this whole motorized thing. What I what I want to do is if I ever get the opportunity and maybe it'll come as things with Black Eyed Fist and Progresses, I would like to I would love to sit down with an engineer who does chairs or maybe someone who doesn't do chairs, but just actually has access to the resources and has enough imagination and basically create an outdoor chair that is usable under manpower. It's been tackled before.

It wouldn't be the first time. There are a few other things, but having played sports, being a pretty high functioning paraplegic myself, which which also it has to be taken in consideration. So, I mean, if it just because it's usable by me, doesn't mean that's going to be usable by someone that's a quadriplegic. You know, so that's a different hurdle and maybe a different piece of equipment. Me being someone that loves to be active, loves to be outdoors. I need a chair that actually can

permit me the opportunity to push my boundaries, to make me tired, to potentially get myself into some bad situations outdoors, but also is capable enough to get me out of those bad situations. I have some ideas. I don't know who to kick them around to. Maybe one day they will come knocking and I'm like, yeah, let's make a chair. Yeah, there's any engineers listening to this. Hello, number one, follow you on Instagram.

That's instagram.com slash reels on wheels. Also, his website, Parahorpatologica.com. It's linked in the show notes. I'm just saying because you're so amazing. Send a message that would be that would be amazing if if you became a pioneer of something that could get more people out into nature that was also good for nature. That would be huge. And I have so I have so many patreon questions.

Can I go to the patreon questions and then I'm probably going to have a million more? But hey, I'm here for you. OK, my schedule is clear for the evening. We can stay on as long as you want. You can ask all the questions you want. So four part allergies. But before we get to your questions, patrons, a few words from sponsors who make it possible for us to just rain cash on a worthy organization each week chosen by

theologist. So this week, Joseph, who says chronic migraines are one of the only things that can keep him from the field, told us about the American Chronic Pain Association, which since 1980 has offered peer support groups and education in pain management skills to people with pain and their family and friends and health care professionals. So their website is the ACPA dot org. So a donation went to them. Thanks to some sponsors of the show, which you may hear about now. OK, to your questions.

Many of you, including Hillary Larson, Matt Ticcato, Tegan Andrews, Victoria Harding, Ashley Calcophon, Carolina and Gail Grainick all asked the same one that Cora had. I'm going to ask you patreon questions. Cool, let's go. Several hundred people have questions for you. Oh, my gosh. So many people wanted to know about getting the perfect shot.

And essentially, a lot of people want to know, this is Cora's first time asking a question, what do you look for in a perfect shot? And others wanted to know, like, what is the longest you have ever waited just to get the perfect shot of a specimen? The longest I've waited with wildlife in general. It's really only about timing and it's kind of about luck. You know, you've got to put yourself out there enough times to have enough opportunities to surpass the numerous failures that you're going to endure

to get and finds that one creature that is cooperative enough and sits still long enough for you to get your photos, set it up however you want to and execute it. So as far as how long I've waited, I would say not very long because it's normally you go into a situation and it is OK, I'm going to take a photo. And then whatever you're about to take a photo of runs away, flies away, says, screw you by fail, you move on to the next one. So not really a whole lot of time spent. And it's kind of the same thing as once you get that one.

And it's great that they're comfortable and they just kind of chill and you get your photos and then you're on your way. Sometimes they are semi cooperative and these are the ones that drive me crazy. Semi quarter being that they'll sit still for a second and you'll have the shot lined up and as soon as you click the shutter, they move. Why? Why? Oh, they drive me absolutely mad because they keep giving you hope because they're not moving very fast.

They're not fleeing from you. They're just not staying in that same position. And so you continue to readjust and reattack it and try to get that shot. And I've probably spent 30 minutes to an hour with probably one subject trying to do that. Because your depth of field is really, really shallow, right? So if they move literally even a millimeter, it probably changes it. Oh, yeah. I mean, if they if they move at all, like,

yeah, it completely changes what area of the subject that's shooting a sharp completely focus stacking is kind of the way around that to some degree. But I mean, even if they move when you're focus stacking, if they continuously move, then you're just as a well until they stop. It's like, can you just please stop, stand there, stay? What do you think your percentage is between shooting and editing? So Joseph says he doesn't do much tweaking in terms of color because he wants the natural beauty of the creature

to really come through. But what about the sheer number of images he takes? Just considering that it takes me like at least 14 to maybe 17 tries just to get a selfie where I don't look like my uncle Ron. Like, what is his ratio? How many of his photos are garbage? I need numbers. But do you have five thousand photographs to go through?

Are you just really good at knowing when to pull the trigger? Yeah, practice. Definitely, I mean, it's all practice. And I mean, I've got a lot of throwaway stuff. Like one of these days, maybe I'll make it my post for tomorrow. I'll post like my very first photo that I ever took of any invert and then something that's current so people can like really kind of understand of this is where you start and this if you keep doing it is where you can end up.

That's great. That'll be so encouraging for for those of us who have a lot of blurry photos and bugs on her. I mean, I had tons of them. Like, it's funny, like ever since you you you've been campaigning to get me more followers, like other people are going through like the history of my stuff. And, you know, they're liking those and I'm looking at them and I'm like cringing and I'm like, oh, my God, no, I can't believe I actually shared this thinking

that somebody was going to appreciate this. That is such a terrible photo. Dude, that's how I feel when people like I started listening toologies from episode one, I'm like, no, the same way everyone feels that way. And that it's so funny because it's just that means that you're progressing. But I totally I totally get that we see our progress in such a different lens, if you will.

And there's someone who who follows you, Timothy Dykes, who also loves macro photography, and they asked what macro photo did you take that blew your mind once you saw the details you otherwise couldn't see with your eyes? And they say, for me, it's been the scales of moths and butterflies or the hairs on caterpillars or textures on beetles. And so did you see any details of anything that you were like, what? That's a good question. I don't have an immediate answer for that one.

OK, well, he thinks I have to tell you once I took a photo of a daisy and it wasn't until I zoomed in later that I saw a perfectly matching yellow globular spring tail, which is a tiny bug with a big cute butt. It looks kind of like a Pokemon character. I cannot stress how globular its spring tail is. It's perfect. So this hidden world of hallucinations is just one magnification lens away. It's really not about

the the animal itself, I think. And maybe it's just because it's a pet peeve of mine. So sometimes when I'm approaching these really high, these higher magnification images is dust, like, especially with these fuzzy jumping spiders, and they will have like dust all over their face. And I'm like, have you just been rolling around in dirt? Well, yes, obviously, you have been rolling around in dirt. But could you have at least, I don't know, prepared, cleaned yourself before we did this?

Oh, my God, it's like watching someone like eat potato chips and having them in their beard. You're like, you got a little you got a little right, right there. It is exactly that it is maddening. Oh, my God, Forest Dots, a patron, says, who was their response to you being on the show? Any good online classes? It's been a while since they used their

camera, but they would love to get back to it. Um, so I haven't taken any classes. Well, no, that's not true. I haven't taken any online classes. I have taken two in-person classes with another macro photographer. His name is Thomas Sheahan. He's also in Oklahoma.

And his is like the first work that I really kind of started to look at and study. First thing I did is I just started reading different concepts about lighting, light, composition, exposure, how to use your camera to the fullest extent of its capabilities. You know, shooting in manual instead of auto or even the macro mode, the macro dial that is on some cameras, not quite as efficient as if you were able to actually shoot with macro or in manual. Sorry. And then the other thing with me has just been has been lighting,

seeing what other people are doing when it comes to lighting, how to actually get that soft light, especially since I mean, when you're shooting macro, you have to have external light. You can't get around it. So manual settings can be even better than the pre-programmed macro settings. And while we're all here, why not? Let's have a quick breakdown of some macro photography terms. So first of all, in terms of lenses, Canon calls macro lenses, macro lenses.

But Nikon calls them micro, so don't get thrown off by that. I don't know why I'm not here for a Canon Nikon feud. You can do that among yourselves. Now, when it comes to lens length, it depends on what you're shooting. So some experts say 45 to 65 millimeters is good for product photography, 90 to 105 millimeters, good for bugs and flowers and small objects, and 150 to 200 millimeters, better for being farther away from your subjects. But we're going to talk about some super cheap hacks if you don't want to invest

in a bunch of lenses for this. Also, in general, the higher your f-stop, the smaller the aperture and the more crisp the details in your photo will be. But also the higher the f-stop, the smaller the aperture, the less light you're letting in so the longer the aperture has to be open. But if it's open longer and your shutter speed is slow, that could lead to blurring if your tiny little model moves. So you can get around that by having a high f-stop, which means a small aperture

and more light like sunlight or a flash. What are we talking? Some of the stuff is just you're so up close, so up close to the subject that there's no other natural light is not penetrating into the lens. You're too close. So we have to have some flash, but you have to make that flash soft so it's still appealing and I just read reading and looking at other people's work is kind of really the way that I've learned over the years and practice, practice constantly.

Keep practicing. A bunch of patrons wanted to know how to get little critters to sit still while you're shooting them or while they're waiting in their dressing room to get shot. Micah Weir, Don Ewald, May Merrill, Ira Gray, Thomas and Wyndham, Ashley Conan and Marika Shin all wanted to know, as did Charlotte Filchgaard, who asked, flying insects, how to photograph them so they're sharp and snazzy and not just an adorable blur or it was just here now. I swear, they say, do you have bugs that you say will kind of collect and hold

in like a green room, say, until you're ready to shoot them? Or do you kind of you shoot them just in their setting where they would be? And you're just you kind of are out on the prowl and you shoot as you see them? A little bit of both. It depends in some cases. Like the one that if you look at my Instagram, the one that I posted, I think yesterday, that Tiger Beetle, I definitely caught that guy. They do not sit still.

So I caught him, I let him settle down for a little bit. And after that, I was able to approach it a little bit differently and get my shots. By the by, if you follow Reels on Wheels, you may remember that this is a shot of a Tiger Beetle. And usually we see them from above and their backs are maybe greenish blue and metallic, they're kind of clamoring around leaves like a drunk robot. But the way Joseph got his shots was head on, staring straight into their jaws, which honestly looks like if Moose antlers had been dipped in gunmetal,

just ready to nash up whatever prey was unlucky enough to find itself crushed in them. And it gave me like a whole new perspective and a respect for these Tiger Beetles. And they are also one of the ones that is absolutely masterful because at driving you crazy because you approach them and then they'll fly, but they don't fly very far. They will fly about six, ten feet away from you, where you can still see them. And it's this whole game of cat and mouse and you can't catch me. And I'm just like, OK, all right, how am I going to work around this one?

But I mean, anytime that I can, I like to shoot where they are as they are with his little disruption to that as I as I possibly can. The best way that I've found to do that is by finding spaces where manmade infrastructure and nature meet, kind of like parks, park benches, especially like there's one park here where there's this large walkway that's completely built from wood and it's covered by trees and underneath it, all of the foliage from all the winters or falls past, you know, all that.

Stuff is built up around there. So there are invertebrates everywhere all the time. And they're pretty desensitized to human presence. So you can, you know, it's granted me a lot of experience and opportunities to continue to shoot. That's amazing. That's a that's such a good tip. Yeah, the way that the way that you can turn a spider into. Like a like a Star Wars character almost, do you know what I mean?

Like they look like they look like these beautiful little aliens. When you see up close and you see how many eyes and hairs and they're little they're chalice right like it's just amazing. Like your leaf hopper from the other day looks like it looks like a Star Wars character to me, I don't know why. Honestly, these helmety heads and the big visor eyes. They've got these gleaming robotic exoskeletons. It's the stuff of sci-fi franchises and action figures.

Now, if Joseph work has inspired you to get up close and personal with a slug or face to face with a winged tiny, what will you need? Less than you think, perhaps. So patrons Marilyn Scrock, Fanny, Laura Darnell, Dillie Dames, Patrick Shaw, Katie Kos, Kat Lindsay, Megan McLean, Howard Yermish, Rachel Weiss, James Miller, Kelly King, Ariana Mattson, Tino H.A. Bratbo and M all want to know essentially what Matthew Sparks asked, which is, do you have any alternate kit suggestions for beginners who really want

to start shooting macro photography but can't afford a macro lens? Oh, boy, howdy does he. So many people and you do not have to divulge this, but so many people are begging to know what kind of cameras or lenses or any anything gear wise that you can dish on. So I'm going to take one further and I'm going to add this. I, my personal opinion is that that photographers that try to hoard all of their information of how they got to where they are jerks.

What? You heard me. OK. There is no reason not to share as much information as you possibly can, because at the bottom line, there is no two brains that think exactly alike. And there's no, and especially when you're dealing with wildlife, because it is not there to accommodate you like a model is. You can't instruct it on how to actually pose for you. You have to just get what they give and make the most out of that situation.

And no two scenarios like that are going to be exactly alike. So I can impart whatever knowledge I want and whatever skill that a person is willing to actually gain from themselves through practice and our photos are still not going to be the same photos. Right. So there's no reason not to share it. I shoot now I started with a Canon T5i, which is a rebel series, which is an introductory DSLR.

I now shoot with a Canon 90D. Significant upgrade in resolution. Like I could print massive prints of my images of tiny things. And that was the whole reason that I got the camera. Canon also offers mirrorless. I'm not trusting mirrorless yet because Canon is new to mirrorless. So I'm waiting to see what that that period is and see how how it's received by other photographers.

By the by, I looked it up for us and a rebel body, you can get used for less than 200 bucks. So that's good. And when he says mirrorless, that's as opposed to a DSLR camera. And a DSLR stands for digital because snow film single lens reflex, which means that there's a mirror in the back of the camera and it bounces the image through the lens up through a prism through the viewfinder into your eye. And that means when you hit the button to take the picture, the mirror has to flip out of the way and it lets the shutter behind it open

and the sensor records the visual information. So that is what those noises are in press conferences. That's the mirrors clicking and clicking in a camera. Now, you know. Now, mirrorless cameras, those rely instead on a mirror to put it through a prism, to put it through a viewfinder to go in your eye, they rely on a digital preview, which could have a little bit of lag time. Also, there are some differences between auto focuses.

But if nothing else, now, when you hear your phone making that shutter clicking noise, you'll think about how weird it is that they had to record the sound of a mirror flipping up to tell you that your picture took. Yes, I look like Uncle Ron. Venus Optics or LAWA, I think it's L-A-O-W-A. They are, they manufacture lenses and they really seem to cater to macro photographers. They have a wonderful assortment of stuff. But a lot of their lenses are manuals, so they don't have electronic aperture

settings, so you really have to know your gear and know how to actually manipulate it by hand rather than within the camera itself. So that's essentially what I use. I think I have five or six different macro lenses. If you're just starting out, you can get a basic like kit lens, and if you get a reversible ring that you can attach to your camera, you can flip that lens around, attach it to the lens, and it essentially inverses the optics so you basically have a macro lens that will get a lot

closer than, say, like a regular 50 or 60 millimeter would. What? You can flip a lens around backwards and use it that way? That's like learning you can take your shirt off and wear it as pants. That's one thing that Thomas Sheahan, like one of the guys that I've learned from, used to do, because he's a hardcore, like budget or thrift, thrift seeker. He's, I'm a gearhead, like they call it a gearhead. I love new gadgets and toys and being into play with stuff. But if you're not in that position,

just get any camera that you can get your hands on, get a reversible ring so that you can actually attach that to it, or just shop around for a cheap used macro lenses that you can usually find them at fairly affordable prices and work on your lighting, you need diffused light. OK, so a speed light is that flash attachment that clicks on top of the camera. But point it directly at a little critter and it's kind of like taking a picture of yourself under a bay of fluorescence. You kind of want to soften it a little bit, just diffuse it.

You want your crickets to feel handsome. Right now, I'm experimenting with a piece of foam. And I basically have cut a hole out of this sheet of foam that my lens fits through. And so my flash, it's on top of the camera. And so when the flash bursts, it is essentially diffused through this piece of foam. So it spreads it out more and then it's softer once it actually reaches the subject. Oh, wow. And it's really easy, but I mean, the foam is cheap.

You know, if I mess one up, I just go cut out and make another one. It's not the most environmentally friendly because foam kind of sucks. And there's other ways to kind of just do it yourself. I have a friend of mine who took like an old serial box, formed it so that it actually fit over his speed light over the flash on the camera. And then he covered the serial box with a bunch of plastic bags. Oh, and that's his light diffuser. That's amazing.

You know, it's really it's literally endless. Thomas Sheahan, he he takes like a plastic sheet like your paper protectors, like eight, eight by eleven paper protectors. And then he puts a bunch of like tracing paper into that. And then he takes a like a wire hanger to actually create his his outer ring of it so he can shape it however he wants to. And that's his light diffuser. It's literally do what you want.

It's, you know, do it yourself. If you can build stuff around the house, there's all kinds of options. But I would still stress that if you're going to do it, make sure the light is right. The light is important. Get spent, spend some time in getting the light right. I'm ready for my close up. A lot of people wondered Leanne, Leanna Schuster, Ellen Silva, Megan Walker, Sylvia Traverio, Ellen Drenal,

Tino, H.A. Rotbow, Chelsea Nichols, Rachel Sorter and Rachel DeGroff. All kind of were wondering, is there anything on your iPhone that you could do if you just want to maybe make your time in the park a little bit more macro friendly? If you're if you're not aspiring to say Joseph Saunders levels of amazingness, but you want to put something on your phone like an Olio clip, what do you anything like that that you recommend? I

I can't recommend anything based on experience. I don't have any attachments to my phone. I do know there's a friend of mine puts on a moth night where he basically puts a bunch of lights around this area and spreads out these sheets and it collects all kinds of bugs. It's great. And I know one guy, he doesn't have a camera. He has a phone.

He has attachment to his phone. And that's what he uses to ground and he shoots moths. And he gets an excellent perspective on what they are. You know, it is an it is a really incredible device to be able to get a very clear photo that is up close to very small things. Since it is attached to your phone, it's going to be really difficult to get the lighting and exposure or have as much control over that as someone shooting a DSLR with speed light and flash diffusion wood.

But if you just want to learn more about the tiny world that we exist in, because it's really this is the bugs planet. We are there just allowing us to be a part of it. I would strongly recommend that. I honestly, to some degree, I miss it because I still remember when I first started shooting, I was just running around taking pictures of anything. Yeah, trying to get something that just looks sharp. Because that's where you start.

You try to get something sharp and then you work on the exposure and then you work on the composition and then you work on the lighting and then you etc. You know, down the line. And now you're up to some level where you can capture like a jumping spider having one slow tear running out of its eye that looks like loneliness and regret. You've like your subjects of Meryl Streep and like a moment of contemplation. It's amazing.

But but so but at the same time, that does limit me because I spend more time on each individual one. And I'm not just running around taking photos of every little thing that I see because I limit myself based on the quality of the photo that I can get. Also, can I can I just say that everyone needs to have a friend that puts on a moth party? Like if you don't have a friend, if you're not on a group chat with at least one person who's like, I've got the black light in the sheet, where are we meeting?

Like you need new friends. No kidding. Like as long as I've been doing this, I've I only met him just last year. And it's it's fun. Actually, there's a photo that's on my Instagram of a horse fly. And it has. Yes, I know that. Yeah, that was actually taken at the first moth night that I went to. And like the moths, they frustrate me.

So they land on the sheet. And the only thing, the only photo that you're going to get of any of these moths is just a plain dorsal photograph that is really good for identification. And that's kind of about it from a photographer's perspective. So they're going crazy over moths because he loves moths. And I'm all for it. I love his enthusiasm about it. But I'm, you know, running around in other places, looking for something else

that is perched up somewhere else. Actually, the the leaf hopper was photographed at the last one that I went to. Oh, my gosh. Oh, great news. National Moth Week, July 18th through 28th. Nice. By the way, for more on this, see NationalMothWeek.org or you can follow twitter.com slash moth underscore week.

So just when you thought that summer parties were canceled, there's always you and 50 bucks. That is a thing. Yeah, you're able to get a lot of like facial angles too. And is that a matter of you having to move your lens to them? Or can you kind of like gently urge them with a pencil to like face here, darling? Both, you know, if you can move, if you move yourself, that is the preferred idea. Sometimes they are just a little bit off and you want them to sit just like so.

To get the angle that you want. The best way to go about doing that is not to use any part of your own body because there's something about human touch. They recognize it as something to get away from. I'm not really a hugger. I will find like the stem of a leaf or something that is much smaller than them and just very gently tried to coax them over into a different location. And that I have much greater success with that.

Oh, smart. So they're like, OK, this leaf just wants me to. Yeah, this is like, oh, I know what that is. That's that's not going to mean this is fine. Yeah, it can't feel your heartbeat for your fingertips with a with a hunger for mods. Let me see. OK, I love this question. Several people asked it.

Kathleen Sacks, Josie Gombas, Kat Lindsay, Adrian Hollister and Nicole Walkeri, because they asked it verbatim the exact same question. Literally, what has been your favorite animal to photograph? And Nicole, bonus question. Any critters that give you the creeps? Hmm, favorite animal to photograph. How specific are we going? Are we going like species specific or?

Sure, like even if you're like I met one, her name was Julie, she was a mantis. Like I'm all in as specific as you want to get. I love mantis. I love them too. Oh, my God, I had a pet one named Mirabelle and she died. We had an open casket funeral. I have three mantises right now. Oh, my gosh.

Now, are those like the orchid ones that I've been seeing you photograph? I do have there is a young. It wasn't an orchid. It was a spiny Asian spiny mantis. Oh, oh, my gosh, beautiful. Posted one of those recently. That was when it was still very young. It's an adult now.

OK, so imagine a mantid that looks like something from a Ridley Scott fever dream. Just huge, shiny eyes and sharp angles and spines. It's chilling and tiny and elegant. I have the green ghost mantis. I think there's a photo of that one up there. Yes. And I have a an African twig mantis. I haven't posted a photo of him yet, but he's pretty cool.

Wait, which is the one that looks like it is like an alien? The one that has like the. Oh, my gosh. Oh, those ones look like a leaf grow face and then became a supermodel. Oh, the cheekbones. Amazing. Yeah, so I've had three varieties of those. I have two photos up there of my black one.

She was the first one that I ever got. She has since passed away because they have a very short life span, unfortunately. They only live about 12 to 18 months. She was just at over about 12 months. Mantids are amazing. I love to find them and see them, especially in the wild. I really wish there was a greater diversity of mantids in Oklahoma. I think when we have like one, no, we have two species that I'm aware of.

And then obviously jumping spiders, because I don't understand how anybody doesn't love jumping spiders like it's at this point, I understand. I kind of get, you know, an uneasiness about spiders, which sort of answers the other question. So I've got, I actually started with a little more uneasiness about spiders. And then there was one night that I was in the park and there was this massive hole in a tree and I was just like, I just know there's going to be one night

that I'm going to shine that hole in a tree. There's going to be something in it near it or something else is going to freak me out. And the one behold one night I was leaving the park. It was behind me, but I remember that it was there. I turn around to shine my light and there was a fishing spider. Quick aside, how do you describe a fishing spider? It is not little. These things pluck fish out of the water and they eat them like corn on the cob.

Oh, and the leg span on this fishing spider was equal to my hand. And my hands aren't small. I can palm a basketball and if it kind of gives you some like some sort of perspective, it's a big spider. And I was like, there's no way I can not take a photo of this. I have to rise up to the equation. And I had to like kind of coach myself in this to kind of get close. I was like, if this thing jumps off that tree and onto my face, I'm going to scream.

But I'm going to do this anyway, even though that's maybe a possibility in my imagination. And I did the photos are terrible because this was very early on. And I desperately want to find another one so that I can do this again. So now I'm like, OK, now it's been like five years. I'm ready for you now. You're like a rematch, dude. But I mean, nothing ill came of it. Like, I don't think she moved at all.

Like, I'm certain she was a female just because of the size. I mean, they're sexually dimorphic. Males are usually very tiny. She was a massive spider. Oh, my God. Sorry, I just got distracted. I just saw a jumping spider on the wall. Do you know which one?

What kind of I'm pretty sure it's the Mavia inclemens. Because so my partner, she keeps dart frogs and tree frogs. So we feed a lot of feeder insects. And so I transplant jumping spiders into the house because I have a partner that's awesome and lets me do that. So they keep the fruit fly count low. Oh, that's smart.

Do you have do you have like a dream assignment or project that you would want to work on, would it be to kind of like infiltrate net geos ranks and have assignments for them? Would you want to publish a book? Is there anything that that you really want to do with your photography that would be like a dream for you? So I would absolutely jump at the chance to work for someone like net geos. So dream assignment, though.

My dream would to be able to host like a gallery of my images on walls. But I want to do this in the hood. I don't want to do this in some. I mean, I would take the opportunity if it was at some sort of prestigious location or anything like that at all. But I want black children from my neighborhood to actually see this and to take an interest in it and to actually see themselves reflected in the work that I do and consider a possibility for their own futures.

That's my dream opportunity is I want them to have access to what I do because I know my doorway into this coming from a middle class military family is different than what some of my black peers experience earlier in their lives. So more than anything, that's that's what I want. Again, he just set up his Patreon yesterday. So if you want to see shots, he doesn't show on the rest of the internet. Go to patreon.com slash JD Monroe.

I am like begging him to do a calendar one day, but he's plotting his next move. So even like even through like the week of Black Burgers Week, and probably now even as much praise and that I've been getting as much as I appreciate it, like many of my peers, I still deal with imposter syndrome. I'm like, am I actually as good as some of the people that I used to look up to? Like, am I there yet? So the whole idea of like printing, selling and doing all these things with my photos, I'm like, I just like to take pretty pictures of bugs.

No, I don't burden me with all of the other logistics of like being professional and dealing with money, like just give me like a really big bag of money or something and I'll just do all of this for sort of free so that I don't actually set the set prices and stuff. Oh, my other question from earlier was, do you have any idea what bird that is singing in the background? Because I know people are going to ask me. What bird?

Wait a moment. There was a bird earlier. And in the background here with me. Yeah, that was not a bird. That was a frog. That was a frog. What kind of frog was it? That was either a dendrobates oratis.

OK. He wasn't sure exactly which frog it was because his awesome partner has five species of poison dart frog and four species of tree frog. That is nine more species of frogs than I get to live with. And yes, I want to be friends with her too, so bad. That's amazing. I thought that there were birds out the window, but I even I love it even more now that I know there's a frog.

That's amazing because I knew people were going to ask me. Also, I wanted to ask, do you have any advice for people that you wish you had known earlier or when you were younger, anything that you wish you had a voice like yours? Man, that is that is a heavy one. Wow. So one for for black children that are raised in non black homes, it is perfectly within your right. It is not only within your right, but it is good for you and necessary for you to

understand that your life and your experiences and even your personhood is different from other people in your family. You do not have to limit yourself or push yourself to try to fit in or to lower or lessen your blackness to make them comfortable, not even your family. Live in your blackness, love your blackness, wear it with pride. And if they cannot accept that, move around it and find people who will. Because your blackness is not going to go away.

This country, especially will remind you of it. The rest of your life, especially when you are away from them. So learn to love it, learn to live in it, learn to defend it and learn to defend others as well. This dude is awesome. As far as disability, test your boundaries. Don't don't be afraid to test your boundaries. And I mean, that that applies to not even people with just disabilities. Anybody, you know, if you have the ability to do something, see how far you can go

with it and if you fail, if it goes too far, if you get yourself in trouble, take a serious look at it, assess it and then make a. Create a new approach to it. Like, I mean, when I'm in the field, it isn't like a lot of people always worried about accessibility and stuff and my safety and like I fall down. I've fallen out of my chair looking for something. I get out of my chair to catch stuff sometimes. You know, it isn't like something that is like literally completely attached to me.

There is a person that is, you know, not completely dependent upon the chair. I can move around, chair just makes it a lot easier. Don't worry about my safety or my well-being. Be a friend if I need help. I'm going to get myself into trouble because I want to, you know, be the friend that is actually supportive of that process. Don't be a friend who's trying to impose limits on you. That's great. Oh, last question.

So I always ask, what is one thing about your photography that is the most annoying or the thing that you dislike the most? You mentioned crumbs on spider hairs. But is there is there anything that anything that frustrates you either from like a micro or a macro perspective? Not really. Yes. The thing, I guess, with photography with me is that it's it's my escape from everything.

You know, with. This is what I do when things like the murder of George Floyd and everything else become too much when I need to just kind of set that down and take a break and be a person that does a thing. And so I grab my camera and I go out and some usually as much as I can into some solitary place and I try to. Create something that is worth appreciating. There really isn't a whole lot about that process that, you know, I find too cumbersome.

I mean, maybe. Maybe it's just the actual act of carrying it around, I think, more than anything, because, you know, once you with the micro photography, if you have your camera and if you shoot like a DSLR, it's a larger camera and you have your speed light and depending on the size of your light diffusion system, you know, that also takes up space and so it can get a little bit clunky and difficult to carry around a little bit. But that's really it.

No part of the process is too much other than maybe, you know, like the occasional tiger beetle that doesn't want to sit still and just likes to fly away five feet at a time, just to let you know that he's faster than you and that you can't catch me if he doesn't want you to. But I mean, even then, you know, that still has a value because even if I don't get a photo, I'm still, you know, that's still lived experience. I still got to see it. Even if I don't get to share it with anybody else, I still got to observe its

behavior. I get to ponder of, you know, why is it flying only a few feet away and insisting on staying in this area? And the reason that it is is because there's a smorgasbord of other smaller insects that it is preying upon at that moment. I am not leaving this buffet. I will escape from you, but I'm going to continue to eat. Also, while on the topic of flying insects, what gives him butterflies about wildlife photography?

What does he love the most? I don't know if anything really gives him butterflies, but I mean, just the possibility of the next image. It's, you know, even when you've done something and like you're finished with it and you can appreciate it, there's there's always room to get better or even like even pretends that there's this notion about photography that there's only so high you can go.

You can only get so good. Let's just say that there was an actual cap on that, even if there was a cap on that with wildlife photography, even with that cap in place, that imaginary cap in place, there's a limited, a finite number of situations that you're going to find yourself in in your entire life, even if you're doing wildlife photography every day for your entire life, that you're going to find yourself in to be able to actually create that shot.

So, you know, it's just the it's the possibility of things that just keeps you going. You never know, like I always like I come up with different ideas or thoughts of compositions when I'm just kind of sitting in that house and like, OK, I want to take a picture like of this species and this kind of an environment or this location, it's just an endless number of possibilities. And hoping that by the time I'm done and dead, that whatever it is that I create will have an impact that goes on past my life.

Already has, already has, really just the beauty of your work inspires so many people to look at their world differently and the passion behind the way you approach the natural world and also sociology and the human experience and the black experience and your advocacy for that is. Yeah, I think you have already changed so many lives. Well, we're not done yet. Black AF and STEM is just getting started in who knows what's going to come of that. I'm looking forward to it because this is something that I won't

get up until recently that I kind of dreamed about. I didn't even know if it would actually come be something that would come to fruition within my lifetime. So I'm already elated at what we were able to do with Black Brothers Week. Even I don't expect it to be the case. But even if we were unable to achieve anything else, I would be happy that that exists. I am happy that I exist. That was an experience that I will never forget, even if there is even if there

was nothing else that was similar to it in the future. Oh, yeah. No, you guys are just going to start it. Are you kidding? This is like watching an empire being built. It's beautiful. It's really great. Yeah. So I'm well, I'm just here. I'm here on the sidelines cheering you on. Such a huge fan, such like a like a very authentically huge fan of your work.

It's just gorgeous. I'm such a huge fan of it. And I'm so glad that you took some time out to talk to me. Well, this is amazing. I can't wait to put this up. This is just it's such an honor to talk to you. Thank you for for letting me be your fan. If I'm ever in Oklahoma, I hope maybe we can go out

hurping or inverting. Glad to. I mean, I've got extra space here. I never want to not take an adventure when the opportunity shows itself. I'm there. Well, thank you so, so much for doing this. So ask smart, talented people, earnest questions, and most importantly, listen to what they have to say and follow them on Instagram at Reels on Wheels for some absolutely gorgeous, life changing macro photos of some of the world's most overlooked beauties.

So thank you, Joseph, for letting us look through your lens. Also, if you are working from home and maybe spending less money at coffee shops, consider becoming a patron of Joseph's. If even a sliver of you tossed him a few bucks a month for all the free photos that he gives the world, you would afford him more time in the field doing what he loves the most and making me, your dad, so happy. And his brand, brand, brand new Patreon page is linked in the show notes. It's patreon.com slash JD Monroe.

He set it up today. Y'all, I was his first patron. Shout out to his wonderful partner, Haley, for helping with that. You can also buy his prints. You can get more info that is all on his website at paraherpetologica.com. There is a link right in the show notes. Definitely go visit that. He's on Twitter at twitter.com slash JD Monroe to 10.

That will be in the show notes. And while you're there, also follow Black AF and STEM. They're great. There's also so many more cool weeks coming up like Black Ento Week, Black Herpers Week at Black in Neuro is another account that's just launched. And Black in Neuro Week is July 27th through August 2nd. Don't forget, Moth Week is this week. So get yourself a light and a sheet.

See who shows up to your bug party. We are at Allegies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Allie Ward with one L on both. AllegiesMerch.com has your shirts and visors and caps, even swimsuits. If you want my name on your actual butt, who doesn't? AllegiesMerch.com is managed by Shannon Feltis and Bonnie Dutch. They are two very hilarious sisters who host the comedy podcast. You are that.

Erin Talbert admins the haven of a Facebook group. Emily White and all the Allegies from Scribbers make transcripts available at Allieward.com slash Allegies-Extras and the link to those are in the show notes. Special thanks to everyone who's ever helped transcribing, making those episodes accessible to deaf and hard of hearing Alligites and anyone who needs great descriptions of the sound effects in writing. Thank you so much for doing that. Kayla Patton bleeps episodes to make them kids safe.

Those are available at the same link. And Noel Dilworth helps with all my scheduling. Kelly Dwyer helps with the website updates. Jared Sleeper does assistant editing and is just a top notch human being. And thank you, of course, to Harper at Heart, Dino and Cat Enthusiast, host of the podcast, See Jurassic Right and The PurrCast, our lead editor, Stephen Ray Morris, who's just a gem of a gent. Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music.

And if you stick around to the very, very end right, it's like I'm just about to flick the lights on at 1.59 a.m. in a bar and send folk scurrying right before I do it. I tell you a secret at the end of each episode. And this week it's that I went for a walk in my neighborhood and I found a crow roost. I've heard that there's a crow roost somewhere within like a three mile radius of here. I see the crows flying at night and I found the crow roost, y'all. There's a thicket of eucalyptus trees and that's where the crows all sleep.

And I went there and there were crow feathers all over the ground. I got so excited because they just shed them and they fall off while they sleep. Anyway, I know where the crows sleep. And I just want to stand under the trees and offer them a basket full of breakfast peanuts. But I don't know what time crows get up, but I feel like it's pretty early. OK, stay safe wear a mask. Look a bug in the face and tell it it's beautiful. OK, bye bye.