Ologies with Alie Ward - Biomineralogy (SHELLS) with Robert Ulrich

Episode Date: May 12, 2021

Bones. Shells. Reefs. Teeth. Biomineralogy. The wonderful UCLA geochemist Rob Ulrich answers a giant pile of questions such as: How do crystalline structures materialize out of thin air and water? How do squishy animals make such hard shells? What’s the difference between a shell and an exoskeleton? What’s the noise you hear when you listen to a seashell? What’s up with ocean acidification? How do you keep a fiddle leaf tree alive? How do you meet new friends without battling LA traffic? Start by becoming virtual BFFs with this -ologist, who is shella cool... Also MAY 18th, 5pm Pacific. WARD'S DOING A VIRTUAL LIVE SHOW. Tickets available here: https://onlocationlive.com/category/ologies Rob’s website: https://www.robertnulrich.com Follow Rob at https://twitter.com/robertnulrich & instagram.com/biomineralogist Queer & Trans in STEM: https://twitter.com/QueersInSTEM. A donation went to: https://www.ioes.ucla.edu/diversity/ Sponsors of Ologies: alieward.com/ologies-sponsors More links and info at alieward.com/ologies/biomineralogy Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes and now… MASKS. Hi. Yes. Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologies Follow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWard Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick Thorburn Transcripts by Emily White of https://www.thewordary.com/ Support the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh hey, it's your younger stepbrother who somehow is old enough to have a sleeve tattoo and you don't even know when that happened. Ali Mord back with oligies, another ology you never knew about, probably with a charming person you wish you knew earlier, trust me, so shells, hard stuff, living chemistry. This episode was almost called Concology, but it's about so much more as it turns out than just some swirly seashells. This guess Instagram handle is biomineralogists, so when that happens you go with biomineralogy. So, concology or shell collecting that's going to wait for another time, another person.

Also, biomineralogy technically an allergy, and I'm not accepting any emails about it. It is what it is. So, this ologist got his bachelor's in chemistry from Virginia Tech and is now completing his PhD at UCLA studying geochemistry, and we met one fateful summer, the one before COVID, at a backyard barbecue at none other than Raquel Luño, your favorite moon expert in Cellinologist's house, and this guest told me just off hand that he studied shells and I was like, mark my words, I'm going to drag you on ologies, my new friend. So being at a barbecue and finding out that the person eating a veggie burger next to

you studies the microscopic properties of shell structure to figure out what's going on with the appending apocalypse is what this show is all about. But before we dive into this episode, thank you patrons for supporting the show. I am doing my first ever live show for everyone, not just patrons, on May 18th next week, and tickets are on sale. They're at the link in the show notes, they're 12 bucks, general or $9 for patrons who can submit questions for returning a volcanologist, Jess Phoenix, she's back, and we'll hear her reaction to her episode.

Again, link in the show notes. Also thank you for leaving reviews and to prove I've read yours, here's a brand new one from Rose141618 who wrote, ologies has changed my life. Seriously. Dear Allie, I hope you read my review out loud. Just one request, can you explain the pod dad joke? Thanks and love from a new listener and patron, a mama from Boston. Rose141618, we got a lot of puns, there's a lot of well-meaning life advice, and just

a big dad vibe. So that's all. That's all it is, pod dad. So thank you for the review, kiddo, and welcome. All right, biomineurology from words meaning alive or biomineurology is the study of biomineurals which are inorganic elements such as calcium, iron, potassium, sodium, or zinc, and they're essential to the nutrition of humans and plants and animals and critters. So this ologist, again, getting his PhD at UCLA while writing a book called The Hard

Parts of Life about Bones and Teeth and Shells and Reefs, and we reunited to chat all about those things, plus the brickwork of iridescent shells, the oceans, tiny pieces of alive artwork, shells versus exoskeletons, lobster lifespans, animals that glue other dead animal skeletons to their own skeletons, snail drama, fiddle leaf care, fashion versus function, spiraling, and more with advocate, scholar, total sweetie, geochemist, writer, and biomineurologist, the soon-to-be doctor, Rob Ulrich. Rob Ulrich, they or he pronouns. Cool, and you are a biomineurologist or a conchologist or a conchologist, tell me.

Yeah, I would say I'm either of those. I feel like conchologist is probably more accurate to what I am now, but I feel like my goal is to branch out to be a more general biomineurologist. I'd never heard biomineurologist until I met you at a summer pool party seasons and seasons ago. Oh my god. I know I've been so excited about this for so long. Okay, so tell me a little bit about you. Did you grow up seaside where you landlocked in Nebraska? How did you end up studying things by the sea? And does it even involve things by the sea? Are there inland things as well that are biomineurology related? Yeah, so biominerals are any minerals that are formed by living things, so that includes like our bones or

there are even little biominerals inside of the leaves of a lot of species of plants that act as essentially disco balls that help scatter light more efficiently throughout the leaves, which is really cool. Yeah, but no, unfortunately, I did not grow up by the beach. I grew up in northern Virginia, kind of just like in the middle of the woods, and I feel like I never really had the goal of ending up where I am. I think it just kind of happened, and I feel like I owe a lot of my direction into earth science or geosciences in general, just to add a crush on a boy, so I followed him. Did you follow him to Los Angeles? No, oh my goodness. I was probably still in denial that I was gay at this point, and I was just like, he's just a really good friend.

And so I was like, yeah, I totally want to try to go to the same college, and so we both ended up at Virginia Tech. And initially, I was in chemical engineering, but then I realized that wasn't what I wanted to do, because chemical engineering is a lot more application and process based and like trying to make processes more efficient. And I found that I was a lot more fascinated with basic science where it's like trying to figure things out, how do things work. So I switched from chemical engineering to just chemistry, but I was still in this mindset, because my parents wanted me like wanted to make sure that I got a good job coming out of college, and so I was still trying to stay on this path to go into

the energy sector, going to like petroleum and oil and energy. Rob asked some mentors how to pivot from the petroleum industry and chemical engineering, and many folks suggested that he try out the geosciences and geology, which was a great fit and also romantically convenient, because it turns out he was focusing on chemistry indeed. And that also happened to be what the boy was majoring in. Did you guys ever go together? No, he was, he, well, not was, he is straight. I just like, I just considered him a really good friend. He considered me a really good friend. And then in my second semester of college,

I had finally had a chance to like explore things like on my own. And then I was like, oh yeah, I am, I am gay. Cut to now, Rob is out of the closet, thriving. And after moving to LA for grad school and looking for community, he founded Queer and Trans in STEM to bring together LGBTQIA plus and other intersecting identities into science, technology, engineering and math. And the group meets on Mondays at nine to 10 p.m. Pacific through zoom, because otherwise he says, it's like, it's really hard to make friends. And so like, I was trying to go really out of my way. I was driving to West Hollywood, like every weekend and joined the like gay kickball league, because it wasn't,

at least like in my department, there weren't a lot of people that I knew were like queer or gay. I was, I was thinking about it. And I was like, I shouldn't have to drive all the way halfway across town just to meet queer people when I moved to Los Angeles, right? That's the most, you know, you're an Angelina when you're like, I should not have to go from Westwood to West Hollywood at 4 p.m. You're a true Angelina. It shouldn't even be a problem. It's only like, what, four miles? Yeah, exactly. So you were like, screw this. I was like, screw this. I went to one of the events that is held by the UCLA LGBTQ Resource Center, walked in there. And then I was like, there's nothing here for queer or trans people in science and engineering.

And I kind of like stormed out of there really frustrated. And so then I just reached out to the director, and I was like, Hey, I'm really interested in like forming this. How do I go about doing this? I don't really know how to do anything around here yet. I like just moved here. And they were like, Oh, yeah, actually, there are a few people who bounce this idea around. Let me connect you. And so born somewhat out of just like me needing and wanting friends, we all got together and sort of built this together. That's amazing. And just think of how many people are now not having to battle traffic to play kickball.

Do you exactly? We can all just like play video games online. And what about getting into bio mineralogy? Do you want to enter into it kind of through geosciences or through human bones? Or what was it that really hooked you? I feel like I was trying to stay away from it at first, because I feel like when I was in chemistry, I was always really fascinated by like crystals and like crystal growth in itself. And then when I was looking around for research opportunities, I ended up working for my faculty advisor, eventually. And I was working with her PhD student at the time, Sebastian Murgelsberg. And the first project that they had me working on or helping out with was this project on

lobsters. I was like, I don't know any biology. I still haven't taken a biology class since the freshman year of high school. And so I was just like, this is super out of my element. But that was my first introduction to it. And I realized that crystals are cool about living things, making their own crystals is even cooler. And do lobsters just keep molting and growing and molting and growing? Is that why they were studying them? Yes. Yeah, they were trying to figure out whether or not the chemical composition of the lobster shell is like the same throughout the entire shell, or if it changes at different points of the lobster, we found that yes, it does change across the lobster with the claws actually being more enriched in some certain elements compared

to other parts of the lobster. And we drew connections from the differences in the chemical composition to the function of each part of the lobster, the shells have to be harder. So they're like more enriched in these certain elements. At the tail, it needs to be more flexible, so it's more enriched in these different elements. Please see various papers, including the 2019 Frontiers in Earth Science publication, composition, systematics in the exoskeleton of the American Lobster, and implications for Malakastraka. Malakastraka, a side note, refers to the 40,000 or so Shelly boys, including crabs and lobsters and shrimp and wood lice and many other beautiful and bizarre little beasts with exoskeletons. But this lobster paper Rob worked on found that magnesium,

phosphorus, and calcium concentrations in lobster exoskeletons are not uniform. There are different shell compositions for the pinchy parts versus the flexi butts. And what exactly would you say, as a bio mineralogist, what would you say the field mostly involves? Are there bio mineralogists that study totally different animals and structures? And how does one even get into that field? I feel like it's a really small field, at least my exposure to it. There's a handful of people that study things that live in the oceans and create like calcium carbonate shells. And then there are medical fields where they're trying to mimic biology for like bone regeneration, tissue regeneration. Because I remember when I was researching for one of my fellowship application

proposals, I kept coming across a lot of papers by like dentists looking at healing teeth. And I was like, Oh, this is a this is really cool. One of the more compelling ones I found was titled quote calcium silicate coating derived from Portland cement as a treatment for hypersensitive dentine. Now Portland cement, you ask, is it locally harvested organic concrete? No, ma'am, it's a fine powder made by baking limestone and clay stuff and then adding gypsum. And it's so much worse for the environment than I realized previously. But apparently, in dental nanotechnology circles, they're using derivatives to strengthen teeth. I don't know. I don't know what it's all about. But yes, we're going to need an odentology episode about teeth like yesterday. Also,

Nathology starts with a G is the study of chewing. So sorry, I'm never stopping this podcast. It can't. Tell me a little bit about what your work is like. Are you like scraping shells with an exacto knife and tossing them in a spectrometry contraption? What's a day in the life like for you? Yeah, most of my lab work so far has been taking powders of shells. So like someone else has thankfully already cultured a lot of the samples that I'm working with right now. And they've already been scraped off and or I guess they use a drill that drilled off and like then put into vials for me. And then I just need to like weigh them out and like prepare them to be put into the mass spectrometer or like whatever other technique we're using to analyze it. But

more recently for newer projects that I'm working on, I seem to be moving towards working with algae and specifically like hook all of the fours, which are like these tiny little things that make these beautiful like calcium carbonate plates. They're really gorgeous if no one's ever seen one. Oh, side note, I have seen one because I had to Google it. And first off, coca-lilifors are these musically named single celled phytoplankton that live in the upper layers of the sea. And they're so cool, they make themselves a little house out of what looks like a bunch of starched lacy doilies or paper plates layered over a beach ball. This is round things with scales all over them. And at their largest, they are the size of the width of a strand of hair. And then when

they multiply or die, their shed scales are helpful for sequestering carbon. And it builds up to 1.4 billion kilos of calcite in the ocean every year. You're like, calcite, what's that dad? Well, it's a great question that I asked Google for us. So calcite is a form of calcium carbonate and carbonate is a carbon and three oxygens. Now, it's the same stuff that's in eggshells and pearls and seashells, but there are different types of calcium carbonate. Calcite is calcium carbonate that's in a really stable structure, but there's another form called araganite, which has a different crystal lattice shape from a molecular standpoint. And calcium carbonate is also a supplement for bone health and is in the tums that you chew on when you're burping

up chili dogs and you need an antacid because carbonates are pretty strong bases. Now, this information will prove useful later in the episode. Do trust. But yes, very cool chemistry happening to make strong shells out of thin air and water and other minerals. And so I maintain our cultures by just going to the lab, feeding them every once in a while by putting them in some new seawater media and then doing some experiments with that. Also, I have another project that I'm really excited about where we're hopefully going to be planting like different types of fiddle leaf trees. So maybe I'll be able to get to work in a greenhouse soon. Ooh, and fiddle leaf trees, those are the ones that people have in their house, but they

kill a lot, right? Yes. Okay, I can't believe I get to actually ask someone about this, but why are they hard to keep alive? Because I see them in beautiful Instagram interior design photos. And I say, how long will it take me to kill them? I feel like people maybe probably over water them or like, I feel like it's either they pay too much attention to it or they pay too little attention to it. But unfortunately, I'm not too much of a plant scientist. I just am able to keep plants alive somehow. I always just tell people to like stick your stick your finger in the dirt. And if it's dry, it probably needs to be watered. It's a very scientific doctor. Side note, I tried to look up some fiddle leaf tips because I knew

some of you out there are struggling. And apparently they like a lot of bright indirect light and you should dust the leaves often. And yes, stick your little finger in the dirt and water it if it's dry. That's what you do, says a scientist. Also, Costco was selling these otherwise pretty pricey plants for like 20 bucks recently. In case you need to replace one, you've killed while your roommate's been away. Secret safe with me. And okay, now when it comes to shells, let's say you're dealing with shells in the lab. Are they really different across different animals? Are a lot of them like calcium carbonate? Others are like calcium silicate? I am making up words because I don't know what they're made of. Yeah, the most predominant

biomuneral is are made up of calcium carbonate. And then I would say maybe the second most common are calcium phosphate, which would be like bones and like teeth. And then maybe the third would be a silicate minerals. And then at the end that you probably have the more complicated ones, they have iron in them though, and they're like made by bacteria. And when it comes to shells, this is a very basic question. But I don't understand how something that's like a slimy little flaccid little tongue is making something that's harder than my bones maybe. Where is it coming from? Where are they getting this calcium? Where are they secreting it? How are these shells even made? Yeah, so eye valves, they secrete their shells from this organ they have called the mantle.

And so the organ, it's like lined with these epithelial cells that are what secrete the mineral that eventually becomes the shell. But what it has to do is it has to take all of the parts that it needs from the seawater first. And so through some process of essentially like absorption, it's pulling in little tiny pockets of seawater into itself. And as that pocket is traveling through the organ, different enzymes and transporters are changing the chemistry of the water in that pocket to make it favorable for it to form like a mineral. Rob says that crystalline structures form out of these minerals, plus a mix of some acidic proteins from the animal to make these bio mineral structures of varying hardness and uses. And then it turns into like its final form.

And is it hard as soon as it comes out or is it like plaster of Paris and how can something that's in the sea dry? I don't get any of it. So exciting. I wouldn't say it's necessarily hard because what they're finding more and more evidence for is like this intermediate mineral phase called amorphous calcium carbonate. It's sort of counterintuitive because you don't think of minerals as being amorphous because one of the definitions of a mineral is that it has a crystalline structure. It's this like amorphous mineral that seems to be what gets deposited and then that's what eventually transforms. It seems like it doesn't want the water like as a part of it. And so when it is released from the pocket that was keeping it stable, it sort of dehydrates and

like pushes the water out because it wants to be it wants to be this more stable form of the mineral. Okay, so spirals. Is that a common thing with a lot of shells? Why are some like two little clappy plates like a clam or a muscle and others are like this incredible beautiful Fibonacci spiral? Yeah, so the shape has to do a lot with the function of it. And so things like the the noduloids and stuff, they have this spiral shape that within it has these different chambers that allow it to change the animals buoyancy so it can move up and down the water column. And then the different like bivalves like different clams and mussels and oysters, their shape is very determined by how do they live? Do they live like attached to a rock? Do they live on the like the

sediment, the surface of the sediment? Do they live buried under the sediment? How buried are they like partially or like fully? And then I think for the spiral, the other spirally shapes for like snails and other things like that, I think it's mainly for like protection as well as like their sexual organs are the same shape. And so they need it like that. Oh, so when you're looking at a spiral, you're looking maybe at their bathing suit areas shape? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And most of the gastropod, they're chiral. So they all swirl in like this clockwise pattern, because it matches the shape of their reproductive organs. That's why they can only meet with things of the same handedness or the same rotation. And that's why the sad like, Jeremy the snail, the left handed

snails, they can't reproduce. And so that is part of just sexual selection where they tend to be like, okay, well, couldn't couldn't find anyone. So I guess I'm just out out of the game. Is that how that goes? Yeah, it's really sad. And it's like surprising how recent how new this like research is that actually identified the gene that like controls it. It like came out like last year, where they actually identified the gene. And they noticed that like, oh, things that lack this gene are the ones that's like spiral counterclockwise. So it's just a mutation. And it's sad. Oh, Jeremy, I looked it up and this left hand or sinister snail could not get it on with any other snail unless it too was a beautiful backwards mutant and in a tribute to horny

souls everywhere, the world found him two other lefty snails to fall in love with. All three were put in a love nest enclosure. And the two others mated with each other and made tons of babies. Well, Jeremy watched from the sidelines before he died in 2017. But don't cry yet, researchers realized that he did mate before his demise. He produced 56 babies, all of them righties, who have a better chance at love and making more snail babies. Okay, you figure like tiny snail, right? Tiny snail becomes bigger snail becomes bigger snail. Are they adding to the shell on the big end or on the little end? Can it just keep growing like a rock candy and super saturated sugar water? Like, where are they adding to it? Yeah, they're adding to it at the little end.

That's like the point at which things are growing outward. So the snails hatch from an egg and they have a proto conch, which is like a colorless little shell that hardens with more calcium, which they have to get from eating their eggshell, kind of like snacking on the placenta that you just slid out of. It's resourceful. Now, as a snail grows, the teeny tiny baby world stays in the center, and it keeps making more new shell at the aperture at the opening end, which hardens and crystallizes as it grows. Okay, and crystals. You love crystals, obviously. It kind of drew you to it. Very LA. I like the idea that if you have like a crusty snail shell on your altar, that's kind of a crystal. Yeah, yeah. Smash it up a bit, look at it under like a really,

really strong microscope, you'll see the crystals. How are the crystals forming? Because we know that an ice cube is a crystal, right? We were like, or snowflake is also crystal like six sided. What is it about calcium carbonate or these other minerals that allow it to make that crystalline structure? Yeah, it's what's available. It's like based on what they have around them, it's what they can make the most easily. When they are putting these chemicals into the space, they're really, probably they're not like intentionally doing it, like we don't think about us or ourselves like making our bones. But there is something there like guiding the crystals into being formed, and more impressively formed into like these like wild, beautiful shapes that we see.

And I mean, okay, favorite shells, do you have some that stick in your mind? Are you like a shell person as it is? Are you a person who's like, oh, I gotta keep some on my bookshelf? Or are you strictly like when it's powdered and under a microscope, then I care? Or do you marvel over them? I marvel over them. But when I moved, I was since I was moving across the country, I had to leave like my like rock and mineral collection with my parents at their house. And I was like, Oh, no. So I sadly like don't, I don't have any. But yeah, I think I'm always going to be fascinated by things that like nature can create, especially with how like beautiful shells can be. And it's kind of like almost for no reason, like they do it for function. And then

it just like happens to be beautiful. My old research advisor used to always say that nature was the best engineer. Oh, I mean, when I think about biomimicry and how much we borrow from nature, I always think, you know, we're on iPhone 11 or 12 or something. But for every animal, they've had so many iterations, every generation is an iteration. And they've had millions and millions and millions over years. So like, imagine an iPhone 35 million, like, it's going to be a great iPhone. Like it's going to be advanced. So of course, they've figured it out based on like what works best. But can I ask you one million patreon questions? You can ask me whatever you want. Okay, you hear that? Whatever I frickin want, which is what you want, patrons who submitted

questions. But first, we donate to a charity of the biominerologists choosing. And this week, it's directed toward the Center for Diverse Leadership in Science. And CDLS at UCLA was founded by Professor Aradna Tripati, and is an initiative to bring people from diverse backgrounds into science. And a donation to them was made possible by these word approved show sponsors. All right, we have a shell of a lot of questions to get through. Let's do it. Okay, a lot of people, Leah Darpel, Courtney R, Ann Blondin, Monica Beatrix, Bella Quava, Lisa Ma, Zoe Jane, Paige Labursky, Flora Duff, Carissa Perry, Felix Wolfe, Kelsey Story, Becky Roberson, Aliyah, Sarah Sexton, I know these are a lot of names, Ann McHenry, and Ellen Dernal, all of those people. It's a lot of

people. And I read them all because it is important. Want to know, in Kelsey Story's words, she said, is it rude to collect shells, empty ones, obviously, or am I robbing a little sea friend of a potential home? And Carissa Perry said, love my shell collection, but can probably be convinced to quit the habit if it's no bueno. And Sarah Sexton has a million shells from when she lived in Hawaii, and she doesn't want to get rid of them. But what should she do with them? What is the deal when you are collecting shells? Are you ruining life for the sea? I guess in short, yeah, like anything where you're removing a material from the natural ecosystem probably isn't the best for the environment. I'm pretty sure that Hermit crabs already like

very, it's not their market for homes. And so removing more potential homes for them is probably not the best. But they're not, they're also not the only people who use old shells. There are other organisms that use old shells to like weigh themselves down or even like use them for protection. Like, I know there's some really cute pictures of sea urchins that actually put some old like bivalves shells on and they kind of look like little tiny hats. I think there was an image circulating Twitter of like these sea urchins wearing tiny little cowboy hats and they're really cute. Did I look it up? Of course. Did it deliver? Also, of course. Okay, so Reddit user vanilla bean 5813 has an aquarium and after seeing their urchins pick up shells or bits of coral and damaging

the coral doing it, they decided to 3D print them some hats to use instead. So you can see the links on my website if you need to look up a spiky alive Kushball wearing a witch hat, which you do. And apparently scientists think they do that because it makes them feel protected. And they also, according to vanilla bean 5813 on Reddit, they move them just to the side. They cock up to an angle in order to poop, which happens at the top of their head. They poop at the top of their head. Please tell everyone that you know. Now, I was going to ask about Hermes. Emily asked, is it true that hermit crabs all line up to trade shells when they need a larger one? Felix Wolf had this question too. I don't know if you've seen the David Attenborough clip, but it is the cutest thing I've ever seen

in my life. Yeah, I feel like, I feel it. Yeah, I mean, they have a video of it, right? So we happened to discuss this recently in the nephrology episode about kidneys because one kidney donation might help 10 other people meet their match rather than their maker. So yes, David Attenborough narrated it beautifully. I think about it way too much. I think people should do it with houses, maybe. I'm just saying. A lot of people wanted to know. I don't even know if I'm going to read their names, to be honest, because it's like 75 people wanted to know. Like Bridget White says, first patreon question, why do the inside of shells tend to have a beautiful, shiny gas rainbow and the outsides are just good for camouflaging? Also, Ann McCarney, first time question asker,

wants to know, Mother Pearl, what's the deal? Why is the inside of an oyster like a fairy wing? Is it an accident? Does this serve a purpose? And do they know how beautiful they are? I would hope so. I'd hope that they have some sort of reflection where they're looking, looking whatever they can use as a mirror and are like, yes, you are beautiful, you are gorgeous, you are powerful. But that's probably not the case. But yeah, so Mother Pearl or Naker and a CRE, it's beautiful because of how the light refracts, because it's usually made up of their like prismatic tablets almost, and the way that they're stacked bend the light and the way that makes it look like this weird rainbow. And it does have a purpose. So it's mechanical

properties are very strong and are very good and very resistant to wear and tear. And it's especially useful because of its ductile, they can put it into odd shapes that are the insides of these shells. So ductile side note means that it can be formed into shapes without losing its strength. And kind of like an iridescent Lego set, Mother of Pearl has a brick and mortar structure to it, the bricks being aragonite, which is another form of calcium carbonate. And the mortar, what is it? Thanks for asking. Well, it's elastic bio polymers, kind of like a silky glue that holds the aragonite together. The mollusks that secrete it in their mantle tissue are just always turning it over to help capture and get rid of parasites and debris

and gunk and stuff. So under a microscope, the inside of an abalone or muscle shell looks like a brick building. And the stacked aragonite platelets are close to the size of a wave of light. And so irregularities on the surface scatter light, making it look like a jazzy little rainbow. All of that chemistry, structure, strength, beauty, and your cousin just uses an abalone shell as an ashtray. Do as you will. So it's function first, and then it's fashion. Yes, function and then fashion, very much like my closet. And the more surprising bit is that even though it looks completely different to the outside of the shell, at the base level, it's all made up of the same stuff. It's all calcium carbonate. It's just in a different crystal structure,

or it's like arranged in a different orientation. Oh, I had no idea. Sarah Kulig wants to know, is Marcel the Shell the cutest example of a fictional shell creature? Guess what I used? It's tie my skis to my car. A hair. Guess what my skis are? Toe nails from a man. Uh, I think so. Yeah, like that's that's a throwback. Like I haven't thought about Marcel the Shell in. I don't even know how long. Could I tell you something? I watched Marcel the Shell three days ago. What? That show is like at least 10 years old. I know, but I just remembered how she was like, you know what I ski on? A man's toenail. And I like had to listen to it again. It always gets me right in the heart. Ellen Skelton wants to know, what is the most ridiculous

shell you have seen? Like one that you look at and think, why in evolutionary history did this squishy thing feel the need to create this elaborate thing? Well, there's this like, there's this one xenophora that's called the carrier shell. It doesn't make sense. It's just like, why did this shell of this snail decide at some point in its history that it was going to pick up and meld with other shells as it grows? And so it just looks like this spiral that has other random shells sticking out of it. And it just kind of picks it up as it goes? Like a limb roller? It just picks it up. Dang, I mean, that's good for it. It's like that guy at the party that sees half empty beers and is like, sure, man, why not? Oh, ew. Okay, so I had never heard of these,

but xenomorphs etymology means bearing foreigners because they pick up objects like pebbles and other shells, sometimes bottle caps, and they cement them to themselves for camouflage or in deeper waters, scientists think it might help them from getting sucked into the sticky mud to have a bigger footprint. But the objects they choose, they can be so beautifully curated. And I was reading one museum exhibit about it that began, quote, it is not known to what extent an artistic sensibility plays a part in this behavior, which I bet a lot of mollusks right now are like, um, pardon me, this is handcrafted. And by handcrafted, I mean, I made it with my slimy body. But that's not the point. Okay, so this next question is about. Opriculum. A few people,

Sarah Sutcliffe and Sherene Shipman, both wanted to know a pair of coulombs, a pair of coulombs, a pair of coulombs. Opriculum. What are? It's one of those words I've never read out loud. I've never seen it before, but they're so cool. How do they grow as well as the shell? What is, is it a lid? What are they? Yeah, they are lids or like trap doors. They're made of the same stuff as the shell. And they're just one of the ways that the organisms living inside of the shell can protect themselves from predators, because it's like a little, little trap door that they can retract and close themselves into. Goodbye. And they're, yeah, they're just little lids for these little shell pots. So that's so cute. Okay, a lot of people, a lot of people wanted to

know, can you hear the ocean in shells? What makes them sound like the ocean? Elizabeth Roth says, I heard that the sound is created by blood moving in our own ears, being echoed by the shell. Do people ask this of you when you tell them you study shells? I feel like nobody ever asks me anything. I would love more questions about shells all the time. And I really want to say yes, because it sounds very magical. But the answer is no, unfortunately. And it's also not necessarily you hearing your own blood either. It's just that like shells. And this is the reason why there also have been used for instruments in the past, is just that shells are so efficient and effective at amplifying sound that whenever you put your ear up to the shell,

it's really just amplifying the sound of the ambient noise and like air moving around. So, flim flam busted. The noise that you hear from shells has a name. It's called seashell resonance. But that ambient amplification would also work with like an empty Starbucks cup. So I'm sorry to have just broken your heart. Curious landmermaids, including Krista Charter, Rachel Moore, Elizabeth Roth, Kate Rampe, Kelly Windsor, Tegan Andrews, Megan Young, Sylvia Meyer, and Delano Pelt. But on the notes of myths and thrombing blood in your ears. Remnant Muse posted, how do you feel about the acid bath lyrics? The sound of the ocean is dead. It's just the echo of blood in your head. But that makes me want to know, along with a lot of

other people in terms of acid baths, tell me a little bit about the ocean and what is happening to shells these days. Ellen Skelton, Becky the sassy seagrass scientist, Monica, Julie DePrie, Ryan Gwyn, Sarah Sutcliffe, Seth Succi, Zach Strickland, first time question askers, Olivia Zanzaniko, Natalie Rhodes, letters from Eleanor Rigby, Jennifer Stone, all had similar questions, which I will read in Julie Baer's words. Sorry to ask the depressing question, but are we noticing a change in marine shells due to global warming and ocean acidification? What a necessary bummer. Yeah, as most of the listeners probably know, the ocean is becoming more acidic and temperature of the ocean is increasing. And so this, I guess, sort of predictably sort of makes it a lot harder for

living things that precipitate minerals to make their minerals. It affects the animals in different ways because they all live in different ways. So it's not necessarily as direct as like, oh, the shells are dissolving. It's more along the lines of like, oh, this is stressing out these living things. And it's making it harder for them to precipitate the minerals in the first place. And so they have to, if they even can direct more energy into that process, that's like what is killing these things. What types of shellfish or mollusks are having the hardest time right now? I feel like it's any organism that doesn't have as much control over its internal chemistry. Like some organisms control more strongly than others, the composition of that fluid

pocket that's traveling through the shell making organ. And so if it's something that has a very high level of control over that, like corals or lobsters, they tend to have a bit more resistance when it comes to be faced with like these stressors. However, things that have less control, like certain species of algae, certain species of like mollusks, they can't really do anything about it because they can't adapt quickly enough. Because they're a little bit less complex than organism? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's one way of putting it. Daisy Goldstein Cross wants to know, please talk about chalk, also opals. Are opals shell like? You could argue that they look kind of like nacre, but they're not, they are not shells.

Okay, good. Yeah, they are amorphous silica minerals that are formed more like via sedimentation. I did not know that. I understand that they are less hardy as a gem, like they're more prone to flaking than some other gems. Yeah, probably because it's amorphous, not as hard. Okay. And what about chalk? Chalk is a lot of dead animals? Yes, chalk is a lot of dead coquelithophores, actually. So the old skeletons of tons and tons of these algae that have sunk to the bottom of an ocean and piled up very high. Wow. And do you think if you're vegan, using chalk should be not something you do? Are they plants or are they animals? They are plants. They are a species of algae, yeah. Okay, got it, got it, got it. So they're not dead animals. They're dead plants.

That's interesting. Okay. Listen, I heard skeletons. I thought of bags of flesh. Okay, my bad. A few people, Edward Rice, Socorrius, and Alex Walker, all wanted to know about coquina. Could you talk about how shells become coquina? And Edward Rice says, I'm living just south of St. Augustine, and there are whole buildings made out of this stuff that were built in the 1600s. How did those tiny shells end up becoming rock? So have you heard of this? I definitely remember it from class. I've never imagined it being able to be something that could make up entire buildings. Those buildings must be beautiful. So coquina is the material composed of shells all stuck together by the calcium carbonate that dissolved over time and then

restuck. And I had never seen this, but I just gazed at pictures and it looks kind of like a rice crispy treat made with frosted flakes. Only it's shells. But it must be very similar to chalk in a way where it's like, it's all these organisms that have precipitated shells and they've died. And so these shells have sunk to the bottom of the ocean and created this layer of sediment that's just crushed up old shells, but they haven't been pulverized enough to where they're super sandy. It's still very obviously like crushed up shells glued together by other forms of calcium carbonate like limestone. Ooh, I've never even seen it. Oh, it's beautiful. And Sarah Maas, first time question asker, such a good question. How are shells different from exoskeletons? And do crabs

have shells or do they have exoskeletons? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it completely depends on the exoskeleton that you're talking about. I would I would argue that probably that all shells are exoskeletons, but not all exoskeletons are shells. But yes, crabs do have an exoskeleton. And yes, it is a shell. I guess this also goes back to the lobster question where it's like, Oh, these arthropods are crustaceans, they're molting. And at least in the case of the lobster, every time it molts, it's shedding its old shell. But in that process of shedding its old shell, it actually recycles a lot of the mineral in that old shell, it resorbs it, which is really cool. And so depending on the species of lobster or even location, it can recycle from 20%

up to like 90% of that old shell, which is really cool. That is cool. I had no idea. I thought they were just like, okay, by now that was so expensive, just like leaving like an Audi by the side of the road. That's good to know. I feel less bad for them. Speaking of feeling bad, Sarah Culligan, Monica both had questions similar. Sarah says, I feel like this is unlikely, but I can't help but wonder, is there evidence of microplastics somehow now appearing in shells or affecting shell development? This can't be good. Hmm. I don't know if they've found them in like within the shell itself. I know that the organisms are like they are getting into like the soft parts of the organisms,

like the shellfish were eating and stuff. But I don't know about them actually getting into the shells themselves. I did read an article at one point that was looking at the effects of microplastics on hermit crabs and they found that when hermit crabs are exposed to microplastics, it screws with their cognitive abilities and it makes it harder for them to be able to choose a new shell. Oh, I don't like that very much at all. Please see the April 2020 paper, microplastics disrupt hermit crab shell selection and then go whimper into your hands. Yeah, sad. Oh, I want to pet one softly on the head. No, it does not want that. Kelly Dredge had a great question. Can the chemical composition of shells be utilized to

identify where they were developed globally? Like can we look at a shell and know it was created in Australia because of its chemistry? Maybe not that specifically. Like that's a really great question. And that's very lined with what some other people in my lab do. I don't know if we'd be able to pinpoint like where on the globe exactly, but we would definitely be able to get a lot of information of the type of environment that it grew in. Okay. Along those lines, Julie Bear wants to know and I'm going to read it as it's written. It goes, have we found flushed manmade drugs in shells than a frowny face? Nothing I know of. They're not like jacked on steroids or on birth control pills.

Yeah, but maybe they have their own substances that they like to use. Perhaps just party shells. Vance Alasha asks, why are Florida beaches covered in shells? So many cuts in my feet. And then there's four exclamation points. Yeah, it's actually the shape of Florida and like the surrounding bits of land or islands that causes that to happen. A lot of the islands run parallel to Florida and so they're like aligned with the water currents running around Florida itself. However, beaches like Sanibel, I think that it starts with an S. It's actually perpendicular and so it sort of catches all the shells that come out of that current and that's why it has so many more shells than a lot

of other beaches. Oh, okay. So do you think if you were to find a shell from someplace in Florida and there were a lot of them, it would be okay to take home or is it still like leave them on the beach? I think to be safely on the beach, but I'm sure if you take one, it's like fine. Definitely not if they're alive or but if they're like fully still like formed and like together, you probably should leave them. Okay, Sigwini Dana asks, what determines the color of a shell? Like what makes it white or purple? And does the same color have a different cause and different species? Yeah, that's a really good question. Like purple mollusks shells and stuff. Any idea what causes it? Yeah, so a lot of shells have this the like final outermost layer is this

organic covering sort of like a skin almost and that's what carries the the pigment or whatever makes the pigment and usually what determines the color is similar to the shape where it's it's about function and trying to camouflage with its surroundings and I know that some some species of bivalves are actually able to change their color with the environment where others can't let's say a certain kind of muscle shell is usually purple on the inside if there's a purple seashell out of the Bahamas is it kind of the same the same thing that's making the same color? Oh yeah, yes, it's usually it's probably the same thing going on. And it's also interesting that it's so much more function over genetics that it really depends a lot more on

like the local environment of the shell rather than it being related like closely related to other species of the shell. Oh, and that is that partly just because that's what it's pulling out of the environment to make it? Yeah, it's partially probably like what it's playing out of the environment but also just like what it needs. We're probably wearing a lot more shorts and t-shirts in LA than up in Washington. True true and side note these lilac to violet marbly colored shells of the northeast coast quahug clams are used to make what some indigenous nations call wampum beads strung together in various patterns with these creamy white shelled beads of the welx tail and the species of clam is called mercenaria mercenaria and those words essentially mean commerce

but wampum beads and belts had much more significance than currency for many indigenous cultures and I was just reading that it wasn't until colonization that their value became monetary to settlers so there is gorgeous beadwork and a rich history in wampum beads and it's worth going down labyrinths of rabbit holes to learn more but yes those purple striations in the shell are regional and they're created by different minerals in the mud so color me plums surprised so bio mineralogy my friends in a nutshell in a clam shell. Aaron Morris first time ever question asker says the little holes you see in shells are they from worms burrowing into them while they're alive what are those? Yeah um they're not from worms but they are from these carnivorous snails

usually it's like this type of welk I think it's called the dog welk and what it does is it goes up to these clams and it uses its tongue which is like tongue and like quotes it's more of a drill and it drills into these shells to try to get into the soft tasty gooey you know deliciousness that's inside the shell once it makes that hole it turns it inside until goo that it can slurp up like oh soda what a dick just piercing it like a capri sun of course it's okay snail you gotta eat I understand you're not a dick I was projecting okay Molly Johnson has a style question uh seconded by Aaron Ryan Molly asks why are dusty shells a thing in suburban beach themed bathrooms and how do we make people stop putting them there and just enjoy them on the beach and Aaron Ryan says I

second this question and it's precise wording thoughts on dusty bathroom shells what do they mean by dusty you know you just you got a bowl of shells it's been there for a year you know yeah I don't know I don't know what the what is up with that I guess it's people trying to you know you're trying to transport yourself to where you want to be and so they put the shells in the bathroom it's very true I am going to see if I can trace it back to like a 2004 Martha Stewart edition of beach homes Jude Kenny has an important scientific question wants to know can I use a conch to summon animals to do my bidding I wish that would be great it would be doing some of your lab work I'm sure were that true yeah I would I would just you know I would buy one of those

little microphones that people use to interview their cats and I would go down there and interview them that would make my life so much easier I'd just be like how how do you do this um have you ever blown into a conch no I haven't it's pretty transformative I have to say is it easy is it like just like a trumpet yeah like do anything yeah it's like a trumpet and it really does make you feel that there's just elk that are gonna start filtering down and like a raccoons gonna peep its head out and be like my queen maybe one day you'll get to you'll get to the who it's very insane I just want to feel powerful I don't know maybe maybe I'll try to find a conch shell before my my defense I usually I any myths that you really want to bust about shells

myths not that I can really think of okay oh oh oh oh pearls pearls are very interesting I always thought that it was um that poles were like this like self-defense mechanism that like different bivalves had to like protect themselves against like foreign foreign particles like sand or something entering into like the inner the the inner sanctum of the shell what I've like come to eventually now like learn now like in the fourth year of my phd is that it's not like yes that's like sometimes the case is that there's like a like a like a grain of sand or sometimes like a parasite that is at the core of the pearl but what it really is it's usually like it's it just it happens when part of the epithelial cells that create that actually like to create the

shell they get like moved or like misplaced inside and so then they start like making this the shell it doesn't have the things really guiding it anymore so then it the pearls are really just like these inside out shells that have these the like the maker shiny beautiful outside but like at the inside is the more similar to the outer shell okay so it's just a mistake and anyone who's been seeding pearls to try to make more pearls is that just not effective it probably helped because it provides a site of like nucleation for crystal growth so probably I would I would probably argue that maybe seeding them does help but it's not the main reason that natural pearls form wow have you ever gone down any of those rabbit holes watching people who open pearl muscles at home and do haul

videos I really should but like seeing people shell stuff makes me really anxious like oh my oysters oh no I'm never eating oysters if the texture wasn't enough if the texture wasn't enough I'm uh shelling them it scares me I do not want to stab my hand the only way I want to see an oyster is like deep fried and like on top of a double bag they look like toad turds but I prefer them that way but when they're when they're raw and slippery I'm kind of like if the table orders them I'll have one to be polite but then I'm always the most generous person that's like no no no you have the last five yeah you it's all it's it's for you I got this for you also can I tell you that I just read an article about a man who got a bacterial infection from cracking open

oysters and got an open wound on his hand and almost died but good news he survived but the newspaper article detailing his ordeal chose the headline aw shucks how oysters gave one man a rare bacterial infection wow on the topic of things that are the worst okay questions things about your job it's suck worse than oysters what is the worst part about being a biominerologist slash conkologist slash conchologist I guess in my opinion the least fun thing is probably for me I think it's the lab work itself I don't think I'm made for doing like sitting in a lab for hours I very much enjoy at least enjoy more the the side of science where it's I've I've gotten the data and like I'm at the point of like trying to figure out like what it means

and like writing about it and reading about it and then like sharing that I don't know if I actually like doing the stuff leading up to that as much so some people like collecting the food some like cooking it up different scientists like different parts of the process what about the thing that you love the most about it the friends we've made along the way but I guess like seriously I think the thing I enjoy the most about just like I guess life and working in general is being able to like mentor more junior students because I work with a lot of undergraduates and like being able to work with them is like such a great experience I love getting to like teach them how to do the lab stuff and then having them do the lab stuff it's real that's rewarding for me they get experience they

can write about it in their personal statements they can collect the paycheck like it's a win-win for everyone but it's also just so rewarding to them it's rewarding and sad because then they eventually graduate or like they move to like another lab to get more experience and then they stop working with me and I'm sad but it's very fun to like see them grow and like blossom into people or students or scholars is there anything that you wish you knew you know growing up that or any advice you would give to someone who maybe has yet to go through that kind of journey of discovering what they're into either personally or professionally I would say just like I don't know do I wish I knew what things to like look for like what things to look up so I

grew up like in a like a religious household um and so and then I also went to a like religious private school from kindergarten to eighth grade and so I feel like growing up I was very like sheltered in many many ways because I also didn't live in like a neighborhood where like I was seeing kids outside of school and so then even when like I finally eventually came out when I was in college in undergrad I was like okay I'm gay but then I still didn't know anything about like the history of like LGBTQ history or like rights or anything like that and I didn't start being able to explore that until I moved to Los Angeles and then started like meeting a lot more like queer and trans people who are a lot more knowledgeable in that things and I can also attribute a lot of that to my partner

who's a lot more in tuned I'm like teaches me a lot so find your friends yeah find your friends talk to people yeah for jobs oh my gosh I think the best advice I've ever gotten from like a career center is just like oh yeah just ask people about their jobs ask to talk to them about their job people love to feel helpful and you'll learn a lot about like what that job actually entails I mean I can tell you asking people about their jobs is not as hard as it looks people it's very easy to ask people about what they like and I think it's great to to reach out to people especially if you think you might be interested in the field worst thing is that they don't respond I like no one's gonna respond to you and be like how

dare you dare you how dare you like the field I'm in how dare you appreciate me the gall well I appreciate you so much I appreciate you too I still remember when I was like really mad at you when we met because I was like you walked in you were like oh like I was like I was like okay so here's this like like smart funny like gorgeous individual walking in I'm like laying down on this blanket like playing with a kid like I guess yeah it was it was Raquel's kid I was like playing with this like pump up rocket and you like introduce yourself to me and I was like the gall of this woman to think I don't know who she is I remember just thinking like I binged every episode

oh that's amazing I can't believe I still can't believe anyone listens to it because I'm just you know I'm sitting here recording it next to my derpy dog and like it never occurs to me that there are people on the other side that actually would want to listen to it I feel like I just people do it out of guilt or something but I was so excited I was like you've been on my my list of index cards as an interview I've wanted to do for so long I keep an index card like like deck of ones I want to get to so it's so I'm so glad that we finally reconnected because I'm like I feel like it's been the the real the real purpose of me going through grad school and getting my phd is just preparing for this moment I hope it's I hope this was easier than your quals

oh it was definitely less stressful and more fun so don't clam up ask shella smart people basic or acidic questions because they are charming and informative and now you are friends so you can learn more about rob olrich at robertandolrich.com you can follow him at robertandolrich on twitter or queers in stem also of course on instagram at bio mineralogist he's got the handle he's got the chops so we also have our first ever live show there's a link in the show notes it stars the return of volcanologist just phoenix did debunk more myths and go over more questions that we didn't get to this happens on may 18th it's at 5 p.m pacific tickets are 12 bucks for general or nine bucks for patrons

there's a discount code posted at patreon.com slash oligies for patrons you can get three dollars off by joining the patreon for a dollar look at that boom so do attend this may be the only virtual live show I ever do I'm not sure how it's gonna go I don't know if I'm gonna keep doing them but I thought I'd give at least one a shot so tune in you can see if it's brilliant or if it's a disaster so that's may 18th tickets are available at the link in the show notes we are on the internet at oligies on twitter and instagram I'm at alley ward thank you to erin talbert for admitting the oligies podcast facebook group full of nice people shannon feltsis and bonnie dutch of the comedy podcast you are that our sisters they help out with facebook

and also handle merch at oligiesmerch.com t-shirts masks totes mugs it's all there emily white of the wordery does our transcripts so wonderfully kayla patent bleeps the episodes and transcripts and bleep episodes are up on the website at alleyward.com slash oligies-extras for zero dollars to anyone who wants or could use them noelle dilworth is a scheduler extraordinary susan hail helps manage the ship and makes quizzes for you on instagram and the man and legend and hunk jared sleeper puts together the show alongside long time oligies editor and a shallow of a guy steve mary morris who hosts the percast and see Jurassic right nick thorburn wrote and performed the theme music he is in a band called islands it is a very good band if you listen to

the end you get a tiny dessert bonbon in the form of me confessing something and this week i will tell you that uh i'm a pretty bad bowler but i've had some good games which just means like i break 100 here and there and my trick to getting like spare after strike after spare is usually right before i toss the ball i visualize it just connecting slamming and this one time i was out bowling with some people i didn't know very well but who were all like comedy writers on this big show and i was really self-conscious and i started knocking down pins and they were all impressed like you're a really good bowler and i told them well i use this trick of visualizing it first and then it really just connects and one of them was like so it's like the secret you use the secret

to bowl and i was like well no it's more about confident just being being confident and then the next one i threw hit like one pin and then a few gutter balls followed and i just my whole my whole game sucked and i think about that night a lot and about how they're all probably still like remember that girl who says that she uses a secret to bowl and then she stuck to bowling and i remember thinking i should never told them that i tried to rely on cosmic good vibes and visualization to bowl better i don't even like bowling that much anyway may 18th live show ticket link in the show notes come hang out until then bye bye you